Have you ever felt curious about public speaking?

Or wondered what opportunities could open up for you and your business.

If you could face your fears and give it a try.

I'm joined by Jackie.

Godad a voice and acting coach.

Who's here to share with you the benefits of public speaking and

some tips to get you started in this episode of architecture business club.

The weekly podcast for solo and small firm architecture practice owners,

just like you who want to build a profitable future proof architecture

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John that's J O n@architecturebusinessclub.com.

For more information.

Now let's discuss public speaking.

Jackie Goddard is a former fashion designer and recovering actor who spent

30 years working in and around the arts, most recently as a voice and acting coach.

Through a company, Power To Speak, Jackie now works with entrepreneurs,

business leaders, and teams.

To make them excited about sharing their ideas and developing their power to speak.

She's often asked to speak to audiences about public speaking, but also to share

her thoughts on topics like the acting process, resilience, joy and failure.

Since 2020, Jackie has hosted a podcast talking to speakers, authors, actors

and entrepreneurs to discover how they use their voice, story and creativity

for their work and well being.

Jackie, welcome to Architecture Business Club.

for having me, John.

It's lovely to be here.

Oh, it's a pleasure to have you here.

Jackie.

I know that outside of the work that you do, you're quite a keen walker.

Could you tell me a little bit about that and where you like to go walking?

Yeah, I'm very lucky to live on the South coast.

So I'm, I'm between the forest and the sea.

So the new forest in one direction and, uh, and the coast and the other.

So I love to walk.

I've always liked walking and here you got the ponies in the forest

and yeah, it's just beautiful.

And I, I quite often, I'm quite near a place called Limington and the seawall.

Is, looks out at the Isle of Wight, across the Solent, and

no matter what the weather, it's just a beautiful place to be.

I used to run, actually, that's why I used to go running, but, but my knees

aren't quite the same as they used to be, so I've had to slow down to a walk,

but yeah, I do, I do enjoy that, and I go out, I go out walking most days if I can.

Oh, that sounds fantastic.

It's a part of the world that I've, I've not.

Explored as much as I would have liked, um, but yeah, it sounds

like a lovely place to be.

And I'm a big walker as well.

I used to do, um, when we lived up in Lancashire, I used to enjoy

going up to the Lake District quite frequently to do hill walking.

Um, but since we moved to Norfolk, there's not quite so many hills for me to walk up.

But we do have some lovely coastal walks.

I I do enjoy that too.

So, um, Jackie, we are gonna talk about, we're gonna talk about public

speaking so that architecture practice owners can understand what a great

opportunity it is and also to give them some tips on, on how to get started.

So, to begin.

Could we talk about how architects and architecture practice owners

could benefit from public speaking?

Well, anybody and everybody can obviously benefit

from public speaking and it's, it's something that is fundamental, isn't it?

I mean, to speak to an audience, whether it's an audience of one or an audience

of thousands, You are communicating and it's a, it's the best way to get your

point across, to share your message, to develop your personal brand, develop

you as a person, to build relationships, build connection, build rapport.

It's, it's.

It doesn't matter what business you are in, those opportunities to speak to an

audience are, are, are fundamental to, to every business, aren't they really?

Um, and architects have, for me, being a bit of a creative myself,

a bit of a creative bod, I love, I love the creativity that comes with

architecture and there are, there are so many stories Around buildings and

there's so many opportunities to talk about not only the technical side.

Of architects work, but also the design side.

And so for architects, I would imagine it's just a really great

opportunity to share their knowledge and to share their experience and to

build their brand and their business.

So it's interesting.

One of the things you mentioned there was about, um, communication

fundamentally, it's probably one of the best ways to be able to communicate.

What it is that you do and how you help people.

And actually, if you're able to get over some of the fears and do that to

a room of people to get that message across to a lot of people in one go.

So there's some potentially some huge benefits there, as you say, Architecture

is an industry and in the practice of architecture, there's going to be so

many stories there, things that, um, other people are going to be interested

in that when, when you're in the day to day thick of it, sometimes you, you don't

always see, uh, that those opportunities and stories that we could share.

So, um, There's some rich pickings there I would say.

Hmm.

just the history around buildings at just so many stories.

So how common is the fear of public speaking?

Well, and I'm sure you must've heard the, uh, the old adage

that, uh, When asked more people would rather be in the coffin at a funeral

than they would be speaking the eulogy.

And apparently, according to the mental health Institute, there is 73 percent

of people are more afraid of speaking in public than they are of dying, which

is pretty shocking, isn't it really?

But yeah, it seems to be.

Yeah.

It seems to be a fear that.

Is at our core somehow, um, and whether that goes back to something that happened

in childhood, during school, kids being kids, I'm not sure, or whether it's

just that, that kind of fundamental fear of being, you know, Shown up, of being

judged, of not being liked, of saying something stupid, of being ridiculed.

Uh, and I think that's, that is at the, at the core of all of us.

Nobody wants to look stupid or sound silly, do they?

So I think that's, I think that's the reason.

Yeah, that, that definitely resonates with me.

I think of my, my earliest memories of standing in front of a room

full of people and having to speak.

And one of those was when I was at school in high school and I had to stand up in

front of the English class and talk about something, I think it was like, talk

about a hobby for like probably only five minutes, but it was absolutely petrifying.

And you just knew that.

Like nobody was really particularly interested in the room.

It wasn't like it was an engaged audience.

I remember one where the boys got up and talked about looking after his hamster

or it was guinea pig or something.

I think at the time I was quite into video games and nerdy stuff like that.

So I, I think, um, I stood up and did talked about that for a few minutes.

And, um, there was a whole host of other things that people talked about, but it

was, quite scary, you know, as a sort of.

I guess a 13 year old or 14 year old, when you're quite self conscious of

yourself to stand up in that room of, I guess, about 30 of the kids

and the English teacher and to talk.

And, um, yeah, so that was, that was probably not a positive experience.

No, and I think the thing is that, you know, we all have, we

all had to do those sort of things is, is the, but we're given no preparation,

which is a big thing with public speaking.

You need to prepare.

You need to know what it is that you're talking about.

And it's not enough to say, right.

Your homework Go in, you know, talk about it or, or write something about

this topic and then come back and do it.

You need to kind of get people confident and comfortable about what they're saying.

I mean, when I was teaching kids many years ago, um, I used to do a project

with them around their hobbies and their topics, but rather than just getting

them to stand up and talk about it, I used to put them in little groups and

they'd have a, they'd pick a topic, topic between them, and then they'd

They would make up stories about it.

They'd draw pictures on it.

They would, and they'd work together and collaborate.

And actually that then became a joyful experience and an exciting experience

for them to, to work together and to, to bring every sort of element, a bit of

design, a little bit of, um, words and.

And dance, even however they wanted to express that topic.

But when you just sort of say to, to a 14 year old, can you stand up and

talk about your hamster for 15 minutes?

It's like, of course you're going to be like a deer in the headlights.

It's just, just need a little bit of preparation and a, and a

little bit of a fun, you know, there's a, there's a lot of.

The work I do, even, even with the adults, especially with the adults that is around

getting them to play, find the playfulness in what it is that they're talking about.

Because unless you enjoy what you're, what you're speaking about, unless

you can find the enjoyment in it, then your audience aren't going to

enjoy listening to you because they will mirror how you're feeling.

If you stand up feeling awkward and uncomfortable, that's exactly How your

audience will feel, but if you get up and you're excited and enthusiastic, that

transfers that your audience will mirror that and they'll be happy to listen.

that makes a lot of sense there.

And, and, um, The way that you described that exercise with the

kids as well about them working on it together first that Looking back

that would have made me feel better.

Had we had we done some group work and talked about it Before

actually just having to kind of get up there and do that talk so How

can we how can we turn that fear?

Of public speaking.

How, how can we turn that into that feeling of excitement that you mentioned

Yeah.

It's like I said, it's finding the enjoyment in what you're talking about.

I would say 70 percent of the work that I do with clients is not about the speaking.

It's not about the voice.

Obviously I do warm up, I do breathing exercises, I, you know, we do the

organs of articulation and the pyramid breath and all of, all of that.

Acting training that I had, but I would say 70 percent of the work I

do is getting people comfortable and believing what it is that they're

talking about and playing with it.

As I said, the realization for me.

In this work came from the fact that when I was an actor, the bit that I

enjoyed most was when, I mean, the rehearsal process was always great fun.

Again, it was a collaborative, it was a collaborative thing.

I wasn't doing this on my own, although I'd had monologues and audition pieces

that I would have to learn on my own.

But once I got to the point where I knew them so well.

I always say, um, memorize to improvise because if you know something that well,

it, it's almost like second nature.

It's ingrained.

It's like muscle memory.

Then when you step in front of an audience, you can, you can be playful.

You can play with what it is that you're speaking about.

And I knew that once I got to the point where I just couldn't, I'd done enough

work that I couldn't wait to show it to somebody else, I couldn't wait to get on

the stage and be part of that performance.

And that's where I like to get people.

Two is that they are excited.

They, they, they can't wait that of course there's fear and anxiety.

I still get a little bit anxious when I'm a little bit, I get

anxious like everybody else does.

But if you, the, the, the feeling you get in your body when you are

anxious is exactly the same feeling you get when you are excited.

They're both aroused emotions.

They both send cortisol surging around your body and your heart beating

faster, sweaty palms and all of that.

They're exactly the same feeling, but the, that feeling when you

are anxious comes because you are expecting something bad to happen.

Whereas with excitement, when you get that feeling, and you are

feeling excited, it's because you are expecting something good to happen.

So it's really just.

It's not overly easy, but if you can kind of change your mindset or if you can,

you know, you get that, the butterflies in your tummy and all of that, that kind

of, uh, knees knocking kind of feeling is to, to look at it as, as you've

been excited, you know, you've got the reason that you, that you are feeling

that way is because you are excited

I was just thinking about, um, another occasion when I had to

Speaking public, probably the next big memory that I have of, of doing this was,

um, speaking at my wedding when I had to give a speech and what you just described

that, that thing of, um, planning it and

Yeah.

that, I guess that was kind of that feeling that I had when I

did that speech at my wedding, because I was, Still nervous, and there was

some family members there from my wife's side of the family that I either

hadn't met or didn't know very well, uh, along with, uh, friends and family.

But I guess that the difference was that for one, I was much more prepared.

Elements of the speech that I was like really looking forward to

sharing because I just think, you know, you know, this will go down.

Well, this, this might get a laugh, um, that sort of thing.

And also that, it's something like that.

Like everybody wants you to, to succeed.

It wasn't that feeling of like, I'm talking to a room

full of people who are like.

Going to start leaving the room if it's really terrible, they're obviously they're

there for you and they're supporting you.

Um, so it was a very different feeling to that memory from the school days.

Um, so I guess that that's the thing, isn't it?

That if we are planning to do any public speaking or want to do any

public speaking, that if we can plan it so that we know it inside out,

what we're going to be talking about.

And you mentioned that thing about, um, I love that, that suggestion, the

memorize to improvise so that you almost like, you know, it's so well that you

can deviate a little bit you can go off track a little bit and you're always

going to find your way back because you know what you're talking about so

well with the preparation that you've

Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't always, I don't recommend,

you know, having a 2000 word.

Essay that you then have to memorize word for word, but if you're telling

stories, then the stories don't need to be scripted, but you know, you

know, I always work with clients on a, on a journey through a presentation.

So we find what those stories are that you can hang that

point that you want to make on.

So if you need to get a point to cross, what's the story that's going to, is,

is going to land with the audience.

What is going to make that point memorable that they will go away

and, and, and still remember it.

And so you can kind of just know the stories really well.

And you know that that story takes you into that story, and there's a

reason, you know, and so there's a flow to your, to your presentation.

But if, if I've got stories and if I can make connections between one

point to a next with a story, then actually it doesn't, it doesn't matter.

If you sort of deviate you'll get yourself back on, back on track and

you will make sure that you hit the points that you need to make and your

audience will go away knowing what you wanted them to go away knowing.

Oh, that's a really good tip.

I mean, people, people love a good story.

And like what you've described, that, that way of weaving in stories and

using storytelling as part of your, your talk or your speech or presentation.

I mean, stories are, they're so much more memorable, aren't they?

Like for the, not just for the, the, the host, like the person delivering the

talk, but also for the people listening in that they're far more likely to

remember something via a story than.

Than otherwise if we're just sort of bombarding them with facts or figures

or like a gazillion slides with Loads of like loads of information

on um, so that yeah, I love that.

That's a really good

And you can't, you can't tell a story monotone.

There has to be, you know, if you're telling a story, your voice is You'll,

you'll automatically, you'll get excited or you'll, you'll get sad.

Or, you know, there's a, there's a variation in your voices, but

there's vocal variety and, and rather than just delivering something on a

monotone, when you tell a story, you automatically have vocal variety.

So if you're planning to use stories Then do they always have to be

your own stories or can you use stories that are like other people's stories?

Remember.

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Now, back to the show.

Yeah, a story is a story.

I mean, what's, what's good about your own stories is that

you will never forget them.

So, you know, there's never, there's never a time you're

going to forget your own story.

Plus they, if you tell your own stories, it makes, it gives you a credibility and

it builds trust because the audience.

begin to get to know you.

And like you were saying about when you were speaking at your wedding,

it's very much about the audience.

It's always about the audience.

It's not about you as a speaker.

It's about the people that you're talking to.

So you are excited to speak to that audience because you knew the parts of

your presentation, parts of your speech that would Really resonate with them.

So once that's, that's the connection then.

So, you know, even as an architect, you're talking to a room full of

architects, you're talking to a room full of builders, whatever, who are they?

What stories can you tell that will really resonate with them?

It's, it's always about them.

It's not about, it's not about you.

So when you're finding stories, whether they're your own or somebody else's,

it doesn't really matter, but just make sure that, um, that they are,

they are stories that will really resonate with that particular audience.

I love that idea that, uh, it's almost like you, you pass those

stories that you could use for a filter and make sure that they are a good fit for

the audience that's going to be present.

When you're delivering this talk to make sure that it's going to land with them.

It's something that they're going to resonate with, that they're going to

enjoy hearing about, uh, or it's going to elicit some response, some emotional

response from them or some engagement.

They're going to really resonate with that story that you're sharing.

yes, it was Maya, Maya Angelou said, people

won't remember what you did.

They won't remember what you said, but they will remember how you made them feel.

And so if you can find a story that resonates, it's again, it's about them.

It's not about you.

So don't, don't tell stories Uh, are you being self indulgent that, that

are you being kind of, Oh, look, this, this is what I've been through.

It worries me.

Or aren't I fantastic?

What an amazing person I am.

It's not about you.

So, so find those stories that are going to, that are going to, uh,

resonate and build that emotional connection with the audience.

Jackie, for anyone that's curious about public speaking, what

first steps would you recommend?

in, what do you mean in terms of writing something to speak

or just in getting practice speaking?

Silence.

as you know, I'm I'm going to be speaking later in the year at

a conference in London called London Builds on the skills and marketing stage.

Um, and that for me, that's probably going to be my, well, it

is my first public speaking thing.

Obviously I speak on the podcast every week, but it's not live,

like live in a room full of people.

For somebody like me, or any of the listeners that are listening to this

thinking, oh, well, I'd like to get started, or I'd, I'd, curious about

doing this, about doing a talk, because this sounds intriguing, it sounds like

there could be some benefits for me, like, where would they even, even begin?

Like, you mentioned there's a couple of things there, you mentioned

already about, Planning the talk and also practicing the talk, but

like, what are the first steps to do?

I'm assuming it starts with planning, that it's more about kind of planning

things out and working through your ideas before, because if you

haven't planned anything, you're not going to have anything to practice.

Is that

no, of course.

No, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Um, you know, I, like you, you have, you have a deadline, you have a talk coming

up, you know, who your audiences will be.

So it's a conference that's related to your industry.

So, you know, the type of people that will be there.

I always, the first thing that I do before I even start working with the client

is to say, get it all out of your head.

So what do you want to say?

This is, this is the start.

It's it, this bit is about you.

So you know what you want the audience to go away with, you

know, what takeaways they, they should, that you want them to have.

So then get it all out of your head onto a piece of paper.

Just write it all out.

Could be bullet points, could be an essay.

I mean, I've had clients come to me with a 2000 word essay and expected

that they would actually, I would say to them, okay, go away and memorize that.

It's beautifully written.

Well done.

But actually what that is, it's a starting point to then find the story.

So, okay, this is, this is what you want to say, but then let's find the

stories that are going to resonate, that are going to connect the two.

What you want to say to the audience, and then, then you can

start planning and then you can say, okay, well, that's really important.

And I know this particular audience will really love that.

And I can tell this story that will actually land that point really well.

So then you can kind of pull out, I have a flow chart when I'm working with clients.

So out of that, whatever you bring to me on that first day, we can

start talking You've written it.

What is the point behind this?

What is the point for the audience?

Because as I say, the audience don't care about you.

They only care about what it is that they're going to take away.

So you can then start taking from that kind of brain dump is what the

way I put it is, you know, Shelly, who we both know said that I got her

to throw up onto a page, basically everything that was in her head.

She just went and put it all out there on a page.

And then.

We can start taking out the bits, putting it into the flow chart saying, okay,

well, how does that connect with that?

Where do we want to land?

What are the stories?

What are the connections that we can make with the audience?

So you, you begin by getting it all out of your head.

I heard somebody say once that we are story hoarders.

And so we, we keep all of these stories in our head, whether they're good ones,

bad ones, personal ones, other people's, but because they're in our head, they

have no beginning, middle and end.

So they kind of go round and round and round.

So what you want to do is once you get them out into a piece of paper,

you can see the beginning, the middle and the end, you can see then you

can analyze it and say, well, what did I learn from that experience?

And how then am I audience going to take away from that, from that

learning that I've, that I've, I've come up with from that.

So it's, yeah, it's get it all out of your head, get it onto a piece of paper

and then start making the connections.

It's almost like that mind map flow thing of, okay, well, that's

really relevant to this point.

That's really relevant to that point.

And then once you've kind of.

Got a shape, then speak it out loud to somebody else.

I always say this to speak it out loud to a human, preferably somebody that likes

you, uh, because you'll get, you'll get rid of some of those nerves because you've

actually said it out loud to somebody and somebody has listened, but also

you'll get an understanding from them.

Whether it's understandable, whether it makes sense, you know, whether the,

whether there's the flow is correct, whether there's words you're using that

people don't understand, because quite often, especially if you're speaking to

industry, then you speak your own language within industries, but there might be

people in that audience that don't.

Understand that certain words or certain language you use.

So how can you make that understandable?

And if you say, if you know, if you speak out loud to your partner, to your best

friend or whatever, that might not be in your business, in your industry, then do

they understand because so often we try to be this person within our industry

that is important and credible and knowledgeable and all of those things.

But actually.

If there's people in the audience that aren't in that industry, it's just, it

will go over their heads and you've lost.

You've lost those people.

So, so yes, get it out onto a piece of paper, speak it out loud, and then

you can start refining and editing before you then start really learning

it and, uh, beginning to play with it.

That's brilliant.

Thanks, Jackie.

That's, that's really helpful for, for anyone that's

thinking about getting started.

I've, I've heard you talk about the three B's.

Could you tell me about those, please?

Uh, well, this was just my simplified way of everything

that I've, I've spoken about so far.

So the three B's are believe, breathe and be prepared.

So firstly, that content.

So.

Like I said, 70 percent of the work that I do is around getting people

comfortable, making sure they believe what they're saying, because if you

don't believe what you're saying, the audience won't believe it either.

And I know that from, from my acting background of, of being, uh, of dressing

actors, I dressed actors for, for a couple of years before I went to drama school.

And, and then saying to them, how, how.

Can you do that, which is so outside of your comfort zone,

so outside of my comfort zone.

How can you do that in front of an audience, whatever it might be?

And one actor said to me, if you don't believe what you're

doing, the audience won't either.

And for me, that was a penny drop moment because I then

understood what an actor's job was.

And it's the actor's job is not about you going out and playing a part.

It's about being the part.

And so it's the same when you're putting a speech out there or a talk or a

presentation, you need to be authentic.

You need to be believable.

You need to believe what you're saying.

If you go to see, um, uh, a school production of a Shakespeare play, you

won't understand a word because the, the, the, the kids don't understand a word.

And so it's gobbledygook, it's a foreign language.

If you go and see that same play performed by the Royal Shakespeare

Company, you will understand every single word because they do.

Because they've done the work, they know exactly what they're saying.

They know the intention behind every word, they know the motivation.

And so it's understandable.

You'll laugh in the right places.

You'll cry in the right places.

And so you have to believe what you're saying.

And if you don't believe what you're saying, that's when you get nervous.

That's when you get uncomfortable.

You can't look people in the eye yet that, you know, it's, it's

an uncomfortable feeling because you're waiting to be caught out.

So make sure you believe what it is that you're saying, and

then breathe speech is breath.

So it's literally, again, I heard another voice coach say we breathe

in thoughts and we breathe out words.

So learn how to breathe pyramid breath, using your diaphragm to breathe, to really

use your breath to support your body.

Because when you're nervous, you lose your breath because for

everyday speech, we only use like the very top part of our lungs.

So if you, if that's used to using, when the nerves kick in, it will go.

So you need to learn how to breathe from your belly and also

breathe to, uh, calm your nerves as well, which is box breathing.

So I've, there are a couple of videos out there, which I can give you the links

to share if you like, so people can see what that is and then be prepared is.

Is what it says on the tin.

It's just, you know, everything that we've been speaking about is just making

sure, you know, your stuff backwards visualization, using those, um, the,

the breathing techniques to get you in, get you focused, make sure that you're,

you're really in, in the right place in the right mindset when, before you step

on the stage, that everything is prepared.

There's if, if the tech goes wrong, you can deal with it.

You know, all the, all the slides are there, everything's in place.

You feel good.

You know, you, you are, you're looking your best.

You're sounding your best.

You're feeling your best, you know, and that's all about having a good night's

sleep, uh, about looking after yourself before a big talk, because all of those

things will really give you the foundation to be a confident and comfortable speaker.

I love that.

And Jackie, you do have a PDF download that summarizes those things

that we've just talked through.

I will share this link in the show notes as well, but it's subscribepage.

io forward slash speak with confidence.

And people can, can go ahead and grab a copy of that for free.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Jackie, I've really, really enjoyed the conversation today.

What would be the main thing that you'd like people to take away from it?

worry about worrying.

You know, we all, we all worry about these things.

Uh, speaking is such a fantastic opportunity to share.

Whatever it is that you've got to say to share your business.

So don't worry that you're worried about it.

Everybody worries, you know, we all, we all have anxieties and, and just

download the download, have a read, and then take these opportunities

with both hands and just go for it.

Really, really get out there and be your authentic self.

Be you, you'll show up with your personality.

You know, show people who you really are and don't be, and don't be afraid.

I love that.

Thanks, Jackie.

Um, was there anything else you wanted to add about the topic that

we haven't already covered today?

I don't think so, John.

I think we've just about covered everything.

Yeah.

Thank you.

I think we have, I think we've done, we've done a great job.

There's one other thing I wanted to ask you.

It's a regular question that I like to ask all of the guests on the show.

I love to travel and to discover new places and I just wondered if

you could share with us one of your favorite places and what you love

about it and it can be near or far.

Well, I mean, I'd say the seawall around Limington is absolutely

beautiful and just love being down here.

I'm a Londoner by birth.

So I've only been down here 15 years, 20 years.

I can't remember now.

Um, I would say in where in the world, though, I loved Rome.

I loved it.

Well, Italy itself, I just, it's just gorgeous.

But Rome just, I was gobsmacked by the, the history, just walking

amongst ancient monuments that have been there for thousands of years.

Um, and just, yeah, a beautiful, beautiful country.

So that would definitely be one of my, one of my favorites.

I would love to visit Rome again.

I visited, um, I guess I would have been in my early 20s and it

was a very boozy backpacking trip, I suppose is what you'd call it.

It was the first time a friend and I had gone sort of backpacking and traveling

and we, we did visit Italy and we ended up spending, I think about a week in Rome,

so we had a really good time and a good look round, but, uh, at that point it was

very much more about kind of, you know, drinking beer rather than, um, Taking

advantage of seeing all of the sites.

So we did, we did do the touristy stuff as well.

But I would like to go back there as a grown up now to actually

go and enjoy it more fully.

Because I don't think I had a fully rounded experience of

Rome the first time I was there.

No, no, it is.

It is beautiful Sistine chapel.

And you know, the whole, the whole walking through the city of the

Sistine chapel was just amazing.

Yeah,

Yeah, it's a fantastic place.

Jackie, this has been an absolute pleasure.

So thanks so much for joining me on the show.

Um, could you, could you remind everybody where is the best

place to connect with you online?

Uh, power to speak.

co.

uk is my website and you can find everything there.

If you want to sign up to the newsletter there, uh, I run a speaker club.

If you are anywhere near the South coast, I run an.

Uh, an in person speaker club, uh, and I'm hoping to start an online one soon.

So you can find out all about that there and the newsletter tips,

techniques every couple of weeks.

So yeah, that's the best place.

And if you want to connect with me on LinkedIn, come and find me there.

That's brilliant.

Thanks so much, Jackie.

Thank you, John.

Been great.

Next time I chat with Melanie Boyland about Google business profiles.

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