"And so the advisor may pick that up and say, well, this client doesn't seem to really be listening to me. So what happens is I talk more, I talk more, I explain more and the more I talk, the more I explain, the more I get the dopamine hit, the better I feel. And then out come the charts and the graphs and all the experience and all the explanations. And I have just given the client everything."

"That felt good."

"But the client..."

"Long, long, long ago checked out of the conversation. They didn't hear a word you're saying because it's all about you and how you're the expert. And it does not create trust."

"This is The Future Ready Advisor, a show about transforming your financial advisory practice."

"I'm your host, Sam Sivarajan—a wealth management consultant, behavioral scientist, and keynote speaker."

"Hi everyone, I'm Sam Sivarajan, and welcome to the Future Ready Advisor. Joining us today is Mary Schmid, a thought leader, author, and the creator of the Conversational Edge system."

"Her work goes beyond numbers, focusing on how meaningful, trust-driven conversations can transform the advisory experience. Mary, I'm very much looking forward to our conversation."

"Welcome."

"Thank you. Thank you, Sam, and thank you for inviting me to be with you today."

"Well, I'm delighted to have you. I think this is a topic that's near and dear to my heart..."

"You've developed your Conversational Edge system based on neuroscience. Can you share the concepts of the system, your journey, and why you saw this as a gap in financial advising?"

"Yeah, I'd be happy to. I believe that there's lots of good advice out there—financial psychology, behavioral finance, behavioral psychology..."

"...there’s lots of good advice out there, and what that advice does is it tells us about mistakes people might make and how to identify them."

"And what we do is we tell people, 'This is what you need to do.' But think about this for a minute — when we tell our clients, 'This is what you need to do,' what happens? Maybe they'll follow it, maybe they won't."

"And I think the same thing happens to me as well as to the advisor. So we need to go back to the root cause: How do we lead conversations that build trust?"

"And for me, that was really understanding that there's this invisible conversation that goes on. It's a mix of neurochemical and emotional interplay in our brain — in every single one of us."

"It transcends gender, generations, cultures — it's true for all of us — and it influences what we think, feel, behave, and most importantly, how we impact others."

"The nuts and bolts of it are very simple: conversations result in two things. They either open us up — or shut us down."

"When we shut down, we feel protection. And when we feel protection, cortisol is running through our brains. We can't think, we can't understand, we can't listen, we can't respond — because we're busy defending ourselves."

"So the system I developed takes neuropsychology, neuroscience, and puts it into a principle-based system. You understand the principles — because conversations are as unique as our fingerprints."

"It's not about what you say or how you say it — it’s about understanding the impact you have on others."

"So how did I get into this? Well, I'm telling you — it's a long story, so I'll give you the short version."

"I was a health executive, and I thought I was good at conversations. I listened to people. I told them what to do. I gave good advice."

"But you know what? Some people were easy to talk to. Others — I couldn’t break through."

"I thought, 'Well, there's gotta be something more that I don't know.' And my leaders would just say, 'Keep talking, you'll get people on the same page — they’ll come along with you.'"

"Some did. Some didn’t. But I thought — there’s got to be more than that."

"And you know what the turning point was? When my family said, 'Oh, you know what Mom does? She’s a babysitter — an expensive babysitter — to doctors.'"

"It’s sort of funny, but it’s not — because it’s true."

"I kept working and working and telling and telling, and I was exhausted — and I wasn’t really thrilled with the results I was getting."

"Being a research nerd, I simply said, ‘There has to be more than what I know. What is it?’ And I discovered the neuroscience of conversation."

"I studied with a team of neuroscientists — not just to learn the science, but to understand how we can apply it to everyday conversations."

"So you and I can be better at working with people, living with people — whether it be clients, staff, centers of influence, or loved ones."

"I was doing this work, and one day, a financial advisor who had heard about it said, 'I think I’d like to work with you.'"

"Now, most of us jump for joy when we get a new client, right, Sam? But I was nervous. I thought, 'What am I going to do?'"

"Because I had several experiences with financial advisors that were less than stellar — they left me feeling like I didn’t get it."

"I just put my head in the sand, like many people do. But I thought, 'Okay. Let’s give it a try.'"

"So we started working together, and part of my work includes what I call a 'real play' — where we take a real situation and work through it."

"We used my own situation with financial advisors, and as we worked through it, I thought, 'My gosh, he’s good.'"

"Of course he was, Sam — I taught him!" [laughs]

"But beyond that, he led a conversation in such a way that I felt really understood."

"Even though I was a skeptic about financial advisors — I became a client. That was the beginning of it all."

"From there, I worked with the firm, and we wrote the book Make or Break Conversations."

"I’ve been advancing the work ever since — teaching the principles, based on neuroscience and evidence, of how to have a good conversation."

"What I’ve learned is this: knowing what it’s like to sit across from the client, and also knowing what it’s like to sit with the advisor as they lead — that blend has given me real insight."

"And I keep coming back to this: when you lead conversations that build trust, you make a difference in people’s lives."

"That’s what I’m up to — helping advisors lead better conversations so they have a better business and impact the people they work with."

"I love that. There are a couple of elements you said that really hit home with me — especially the idea of the gap between intention and action."

"Every client comes in with the intention of getting their finances in order. But it doesn’t always translate into action."

"And it’s part of that conversation you’re talking about — the invisible currents — that help clients bridge that gap."

"What’s happening in the brain or body that’s stopping them from executing on what they say they want to do?"

"Right. And it starts with the advisor — what’s happening in your brain that shuts you down, that stops you from leading a meaningful conversation?"

"When you learn that, you can identify it in your clients — and help them overcome the hurdles that block knowledge from becoming action."

"And it’s not a trick — I dislike that word. What happens is you become their partner."

"And when you're their partner, they count on you, they rely on you, they tell you what’s really going on."

"They’ll give you all the information you need because they want your help — they trust you."

"That’s so key. And this brings me to the next question I wanted to ask you."

"You’ve emphasized transformational conversations. Can you explain the difference between that and transactional or positional conversations?"

"Yes. Let’s start with the big picture: there are three levels of conversation, and each has a predictable result — whether people will open up and trust, or close down and protect."

"We need all three levels, but we have to use them at the right time and place."

"Level 1 is simply information — we use it all day long. 'What time is it?' 'Where’s the meeting?' It’s Q&A, with no emotional connection and no trust."

"Advisors are smarter — they usually operate at Level 2, positional conversations."

"This is where we ask a few questions, but we enter with a preconceived idea of the solution. We’re the expert with the right answers."

"But that closes down the conversation. We listen, ask a few questions, then jump in with the solution — 'Here’s the problem, and here’s how we fix it.'"

"The issue is, clients won’t push back. They don’t want to look stupid, so they go along — even if they don’t fully get it."

"So the advisor thinks, 'This client isn’t listening,' and starts talking more — charts, graphs, expertise, explanations."

"And while it feels good for the advisor, the client checked out long ago. It becomes all about you, not them — and that doesn’t build trust."

"Level 3 is critical. These are transformational conversations — where we share, discover, and connect."

"It’s not about being right or judging. It’s about understanding what you think, what I think — and having a dialogue."

"That kind of dialogue floods the brain with oxytocin — which opens up the prefrontal cortex. We can think, problem-solve, and trust."

"We can’t have trust when we’re being told what to do — when we feel threatened."

"85% of conversations fall in Level 1 or 2. That’s what we’re taught, and we’re good at it — but we need to elevate more into Level 3."

"Level 3 involves curiosity — 'I wonder why?' — a beginner’s mindset, where we don’t walk in with an agenda."

"It also requires empathy — understanding their situation and how they feel about it."

"And it requires vulnerability — being willing to appropriately share and connect. That’s where trust begins."

"That’s really powerful. I agree — in our industry, we’re often more comfortable in Levels 1 and 2."

"We’re time-constrained, we think clients come to us for solutions — so we jump in. But real magic happens in Level 3."

"It requires curiosity, humility — and asking questions even if there’s no clear answer."

"The client may not even have thought about some of these things."

"But the goal is to bring it to the surface, to let it sink in. We often move on too quickly — we’re filling the silence."

"But the magic happens when we wait. Let it breathe. Then ask a follow-up to go deeper."

"Half the time, the client’s talking it out — figuring out what feels right for them as they go."

"And when we create that space — for clients or staff — they say things they’ve never said before. They hear themselves differently."

"When people hear themselves say something out loud for the first time, they start thinking differently — that’s where insight happens."

"And that’s when the advisor steps in, not just with empathy, but with support: 'Now that we know this, how can we create the next step — together?'"

"It’s not all touchy-feely. It’s real. It’s strategic. It’s collaborative. That’s why Level 3 feels magical — it feels good."

"And it feels good for the advisor — but imagine what it feels like for the client sitting across from you."

"They walk away saying, 'That was a great conversation.' Even if they can’t pinpoint why — they just know it felt different."

"Because you knew how to orchestrate it — to lead with trust, listen deeply, and ask relevant questions that don’t always have a right answer."

"That’s when you tap into higher-level thinking — problem-solving, creativity, innovation."

"Absolutely. I’m going to push back with a challenge I’ve heard from advisors."

"Many agree this approach is magical — but say it takes too long. It’s a long-term investment, and advisors often focus on immediate needs."

"Clients come in with urgent financial goals — retirement planning, investment help — and expect immediate action."

"So how should an advisor balance those competing needs — long-term trust-building with short-term problem-solving?"

"Great question. Yes, this takes time — but when you get it right, the impact is worth it."

"Is it more important to be right — or to get it right by truly understanding the client?"

"If you're in it for the long haul — to build real relationships — this is the way to go."

"And when you develop your conversational system, I don’t think it actually takes much more time."

"As advisors, it’s easy to focus on the concrete goals — like retirement. But transformational conversations start by meeting the client where they’re at."

"If a client says, 'I just want to talk about retirement,' then meet that need. That is the starting point."

"Being transformative doesn’t mean you ignore their immediate concern — it means you listen deeply and respond with intention."

"Then you check for understanding: 'This is what I heard. Did I get that right?' Not am I right, but did I get it right?"

"Once the client feels heard, you can begin laying the foundation for a deeper relationship."

"You can say, 'For today, we’ll start here. But I sense there’s more. When you’re ready, we’ll explore that together.'"

"When you show understanding, clients open up — sometimes more than you expect."

"And that’s when the magic happens — mirror neurons sync, empathy builds, and trust deepens."

"Advisors always say, 'We start where the client is.' But in practice, that often gets skipped — and they go straight to the plan."

"It’s not that we don’t need a plan — it’s just that sometimes, we need a different road to get there."

"That makes total sense. You could absolutely be solving the client’s problem — say, building a retirement plan."

"But real value comes from going further: 'Where are you going to live? What will your social network look like in retirement?'"

"You’re not solving those issues in that moment — but you’re planting seeds and showing you’re thinking long-term."

"And that builds anticipation. The client starts thinking, 'Next time we talk, we’ll go deeper. I need to be ready.'"

"That kind of depth shows the client you’re invested in more than just the numbers."

"You mentioned something powerful earlier — and there’s plenty of behavioral science behind it."

"If your goal is to feel smart and get that ego boost, go ahead and give them the answer."

"But if your goal is to be a great advisor, help the client discover the answer themselves — and they’ll own it."

"They’ll be more likely to take action, trust you, and refer you — and the outcome is better overall."

"Exactly. That’s when you become their thinking partner. Not a teller. Not a persuader — a partner."

"Of course your technical expertise matters. But when you first understand their life, then bring your knowledge — that’s when transformation happens."

"You co-create solutions. You bring your value, they bring theirs — and together, you create something better than either could alone."

"When you’re proactive — when you gently nudge their thinking — they’re blown away. 'Wow, I never thought of it that way.'"

"Now, many financial professionals believe they already communicate well. After all, it’s what they do all day."

"What do you see as the most common blind spots in advisor communication?"

"Just like I said in my own story — we think we’re good communicators. And to be fair, many are."

"But the real question is: Does your communication build trust?"

"A good conversation doesn’t automatically mean it’s a trust-building conversation."

"Trust-building is reinforced with every call, meeting, and interaction — and it’s what creates lifelong clients."

"But some people have a blind spot. They think, 'Good is good enough.' And I say — I believe we can all be better."

"If you're not building those deeper skills, you’ll fall behind. Clients talk about these things. They talk about how they feel."

"It’s not always about the technical plan — it’s about the relationship. When people feel understood, they tell others."

"And if you can’t create that kind of solid, predictable relationship — you’ll be left behind."

"That’s very powerful. It reminds me of the Maya Angelou quote — 'People will forget what you said, but they’ll never forget how you made them feel.'"

"The point of the conversation isn’t just to deliver information. That could be done via email."

"Every interaction is a chance to deepen trust — to make the client feel like a partner, not just a recipient of advice."

"Exactly. You lead with trust. You identify their challenges. You make it safe. You create openness."

"And very few people do that well."

"There’s research that supports this — after a one-hour conversation, people forget 70% after 24 hours, and 90% after a week."

"But the brain never forgets how you made it feel."

"That’s incredibly powerful. And on that note — money conversations are often emotional."

"Whether good or bad, they often trigger fear responses. There's uncertainty, doubt, and vulnerability involved."

"So what practical strategies can advisors use to create safety and openness during these moments?"

"Difficult conversations — I call them 'that moment' conversations — can hit us out of the blue. We’re rarely prepared for them."

"So we need to understand the principle behind them. Step one: recognize when your client is emotionally charged — they’re 'running on red.'"

"When the amygdala takes over, cortisol floods the brain. They can’t think, they can’t listen — they’re in protection mode."

"Our first job is to lower that. And how do we do it? We listen. Really listen."

"Ask about the situation. Understand the impact. Then bring in empathy: 'I can see this is tough. I get that this is difficult.'"

"We’re afraid of empathy. We think it’s emotional or soft. But you can’t build trust without emotion."

"You have to manage the emotions — and empathy is part of that process."

"Sometimes we fear empathy because we think it means doing whatever the client says — or we simply don’t know what to do."

"So we skip it. Or worse — we make it about ourselves. 'Oh, I know what you mean...' and tell our story. No. Stop that."

"Just understand. Then pivot."

"Once you understand their situation and feelings, you shift into one-footed empathy — one foot in their reality, the other in helping them move forward."

"Ask, 'How can I support you in what you’re going through?'"

"That’s it. You don’t have to fix it. You don’t have to be a therapist. Just listen, understand, and support."

"Exactly. And you’re right — empathy isn’t about fixing. It’s about being present and understanding their situation."

"That leads to another important aspect: vulnerability. For the advisor to be empathetic, they sometimes need to be open too."

"Not in every situation, of course — but if a client is struggling with debt, maybe the advisor can share a personal or family story that relates."

"That shows the client that their experience isn’t unusual — that even the expert across from them has walked through something similar."

"The danger is in pretending to be flawless — never making mistakes. That creates a wall, not a connection."

"Absolutely. When we act only as experts, we create a power imbalance — 'power over' instead of partnership."

"But when we meet eye to eye, heart to heart — we become partners in the journey."

"We ask clients to be vulnerable — to share their numbers, fears, dreams. But what do we give back?"

"Here’s what I’ve learned: when you really listen to a client’s story, they’ll ask you to share yours."

"'What about you, Sam? Why do you do this work? Do you have kids?' That’s the door opening."

"That’s your chance to share — appropriately and succinctly."

"Maybe you say, 'Yes, I’ve got three kids. And some mornings, I just want to pull my hair out trying to get them to school.'"

"You can use humor. But always — when you share your story — include the lesson you learned."

"It doesn’t have to be your mistake. It can be a nephew’s. But show that you understand. Make it human. Make it safe."

"When you ask clients to open their coat, you need to be willing to open yours — just a little."

"One of my advisors even asks, 'Would it be helpful if I shared a story with you?'"

"That’s powerful."

"That permission-seeking is respectful — it gives the client autonomy and control. And nothing builds trust like feeling safe and in control."

"So true. That brings us to another term we often throw around — 'being human.'"

"Especially now, with all the news about AI and tech tools that promise to revolutionize financial advice..."

"What’s the balance between technology and human trust in the advisory relationship?"

"Are we at risk of over-relying on tech for client interaction?"

"My take? Technology should be your partner — not your replacement."

"Tech can help you be more efficient and productive, so you can free up time to actually be with clients."

"But like any partnership, you have to ask: What do you offer? How will I use it? And — am I willing to adapt to make space for it?"

"Am I willing to change my workflow to benefit from this tool? Because if it frees me up to spend more time with clients — that’s powerful."

"As for conversational AI — yes, it’s growing rapidly. But it will never replace your ability to read people in real time."

"AI can help suggest ideas or frameworks — but you have to bring your own voice, presence, and awareness of human nuance."

"It can’t see your client’s eyes, posture, tone, or energy. And that last one — energy — is everything."

"People can read your energy in under a second. Are you friend or foe? Safe or not? AI will never replicate that."

"I totally agree. Tech can add value — but it should support the advisor, not replace what makes them human."

"And more importantly — if trust, empathy, and connection are your differentiators, and you try to outsource those to AI…"

"...then why does the client need you?"

"That’s the question every advisor should be asking: What is my core value? And how do I protect and elevate that?"

"Use tech to handle the busy work — so you can focus on what really matters to the client."

"Yes! And I’ll go one step further. It’s not just your core competency — it’s your core value."

"You’re here to help people help themselves — to guide decision-making through conversation. That’s your essence."

"AI can’t replicate that. I’ve asked ChatGPT, 'How do I express empathy?' It gave me a checklist."

"'Listen actively. Paraphrase. Reflect emotion.' And yes — those are helpful cues."

"But I didn’t want a checklist. I wanted to feel the empathy. And that’s what AI can’t do."

"Tech tools can trigger ideas, frameworks, or life-stage considerations — but they won’t replace the human voice."

"As advisors, you can use tech to make sure you’re asking the right questions — about estate planning, taxes, legacy — as the relationship evolves."

"But it’s your presence, your energy, your listening, your timing — that’s what delivers value."

"Because ultimately, if your value is helping clients help themselves make better decisions — that will never be outsourced."

"Totally agree. And Mary, we’re nearing the end of the episode — so I’ve got a few rapid-fire questions for you."

"Ready?"

"I’m ready!"

"Alright — first question: Professionally, what’s the most important lesson you’ve learned over the years?"

"Learning from a 7-year-old — that there’s always more than one right answer."

"I was trying to get my daughter into the shower one night, and she said, 'You don’t need to tell me what to do. I’m not a 7-year-old who needs that.'"

"Of course, I laughed — but she was right. I assumed that telling her what to do would get the result I wanted."

"But instead, I backed off and said, 'Can I be in there with you while you shower? Just hang out and talk?' She said, 'Sure.'"

"That stuck with me. There’s always more than one right answer. It’s more important to get it right than to be right."

"That’s a great story. And even if you do have the right answer — it doesn’t matter if they don’t believe it’s right for them."

"Exactly."

"Alright — second question: What’s one practical tip you’d offer to listeners who want to apply your insights?"

"I have two. First — understand that every conversation triggers either connection or protection."

"As you speak, ask yourself: Am I telling? Persuading? Or am I opening space and creating trust?"

"You can shift mid-conversation and move someone from protection to openness — just by how you lead."

"Second — never underestimate the power of context."

"When you deliver advice, say, 'Because you told me this was important, here are three options…'"

"You’ve framed the conversation. You’ve shown you listened. You’ve connected the dots. That’s partnership."

"That’s incredibly helpful. Mary, this has been such a rich and timely discussion."

"If people want to learn more about your work, where should they go?"

"They can visit maryschmid.com/futureready."

"Perfect. Thank you so much for joining us today on The Future Ready Advisor."

"Sam, it was my pleasure and privilege. Thank you."

"Today on The Future Ready Advisor Podcast, I spoke with Mary Schmid. Here are my three key takeaways:"

"Number one — trust starts in the brain. Every conversation either builds or erodes it."

"Oxytocin or cortisol — connection or protection. And as advisors, we lead that process."

"Number two — move beyond the checklist. Real impact happens in Level 3 conversations marked by trust and safety."

"And number three — technology can support, but never replace, the human connection."

"AI can’t read the room. It can’t offer empathy. Your greatest value is helping clients feel safe and seen."

"That’s what they remember — long after they’ve forgotten the numbers."

"You’ve been listening to The Future Ready Advisor. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review on Apple Podcasts or rate it on Spotify."

"For more tools and insights, visit samsivarajan.com — the link is in the show notes."

"Thanks for tuning in. See you in the next episode."