This is Conservation and Science podcast where we take a deep dive into topics of ecology, conservation and human wildlife interactions. And I'm Tommy Serafinski and I always try to bring you diverse perspectives on the topics that I cover on the topics that we cover in this episode. And this episode is the one that I know some of you are waiting for a long time and quite frankly I was waiting to make that episode and to put it out for quite a while, over a year actually. And also some of you are waiting for this episode to become widely available because it was available for a number of weeks already as an early access to my members on Buy Me a Coffee right? So you can become a member of this conservation science community on Buy Me a Coffee. There's a link in the description of the show and as a member you'll have access to early access to some of the episodes or maybe free access to paywalled episodes, discount codes, VIP seeds for events, etc etc. Also updates from me about what's coming in the podcast, sneak peeks, work in progress, etc. Etc. But most importantly, by being a member you are supporting my work, you're supporting what I do here. And by no means this is not a get rich quick scheme, it is merely to help me in basically vary the cost of running this podcast, hosting licenses, again, stuff like that. So if you decide to become a member on Buy Me a Coffee, that will be greatly appreciated and then you'll have access to all those perks that I mentioned. So going back to this episode, this episode is about TB in deer and you will hear in the episode a little bit of a history why it took me over a year to do this episode. And I think that in the end it turned out to be much better than I originally wanted to make. Because at least we speak truthfully, honestly, boots on the ground, truth about TB in deer from the perspective of hunters. So I think that on the end of the day we managed to deliver huge value for all you recreational hunters, but also people who are in general interested in TB in deer and perhaps farmers even, and just know that this episode, that episode, the recording was part of the episode 200. And if you want to listen and learn more about the upcoming changes to deer management in Ireland, you can go back and listen to episode 200 and this conservation, this conversation was part of the recording of episode 200. But because the topic of TB and deer is so important, I took it out, edited out from the other episode and I'm publishing it right now as a standalone episode. So I Don't hope that you will learn a lot. I am sure you will learn a lot. And as always, feedback is welcome. You can leave the comment on their YouTube video, you can leave the comment on Spotify if you're listening to it, or you can just subscribe to my newsletter and hit reply on any of the emails that you get from me. And that way your message will get straight to my inbox. And I encourage you to do so because I like feedback and I like this conversation going. Okay, so now without any further ado, Ashley Glover and we going to talk about the realities of TB in deer from the hunter's perspective.

I really was inspired by you to talk about and I was trying to do that episode for, you know yourself for almost a year is an issue of the TB in deer and more specifically what happened from the hunter's perspective if they're unfortunate enough to shoot the deer with tb. And just for listeners, I was trying to do that episode sort of like most of the conservation science episodes. The scientists with discussing it and man, it was impossible. No one wanted to talk about me, about about it with me. I've been emailing people, calling people, meeting them at the conferences. I was referred by other scientists who were already on the podcast to get a little bit of a, you know, kudos and credentials that I'm sort of a wacko looking for controversy. And man, like one of the scientists, he's a professor in one of the top universities in Ireland and he's not working specifically with tb. But I was talking to him about this issue and he said like Tommy, fucking ignore it. It will go away. No one will talk with you about this and I think they won't because all those scientists, they have their email addresses gov ie and probably that's because that's the reason Ashley. So we going to obviously we are not infectious diseases experts, but we are hunters and this is from the perspective of hunting and hunter. So first let's start from the very beginning. Once you or a hunter shoot the deer, how they can tell that this deer is diseased, that this deer has a tb. And oh just by the way, all the new hunters, you will get that on the HCUP or similar training course right now and all your seasoned hunters, I have full expectations that you already know. But if you don't, don't tell anyone, you can learn from Ashley right now.

So I think the narrative to step back a bit. The narrative is that there are three elements. One, that Bovan TB is a notifiable disease. Number two, that There is free testing of the carCass and number three, that there is license disposal if the carcass has bovine tb. So when I was actually in that position, I found that that's not the case. So the first deer that I shot that had signs of bovine tb, how you see it. And again, you'll learn this when you do your HCAP or there's lots of, lots of photos that I wouldn't look at, you know, if you're going to eat online, but it would be generally in, inside when you, when you're gawking. The animal, it will be the liver, the lungs and the nodes in the base of the base of the neck. If it's extensive, you can also see nodules on the inside of the rib cage. But generally I find, and you know, I've shot a number of animals. Up until this year, I had only shot one animal ever with signs of tb. But I'm now shooting in a new area where the incidence of TB is higher. I think out of the first 12 I shot this year, four had signs of TB.

That's a lot.

It's a lot, yeah. Now this is, you know, I haven't seen it since. So it may be certain areas of Wicklow have higher incidence of TB in the deer heart than others. And because I hadn't seen it in the areas local to me, but I'm now shooting in North Wicklow and I'm seeing it more.

So what did you see on the.

So what did you see on the lens? So first thing is the animal looks before you shoot it and after the animal is, is lying on the ground, it looks perfectly healthy. I have not seen an animal that had any, let's say, outward signs. They were looking fit and healthy. They weren't moving in a strange way. They had no visible outward signs. But on the grawach, interestingly, most of them didn't see any evidence on the liver, but their lungs were completely shot. You know, as a friend of mine said, oh, did you check their pockets for cigarettes? It looks like they were a heavy smoker. And when you. Obviously, you know, and hunters will know this when you're garlicking an animal, wear gloves. I wear two pairs of gloves, the long calving gloves and small gloves over those. And you can feel in the liver like calcified or in the lungs kind of like hard bits that aren't natural. So that's, that's probably the best sign. I believe there are other diseases other than bovine TB that can cause such. But Generally, you know, while if there's no way of testing then and you see those signs, I think the, you know, you're better to err on the side of caution and not put that animal into the food chain. I certainly wouldn't.

Yeah. And so this is, this is important question. Like, what are the risks for the hunter in even like when there is.

No evidence of any transfer of bovine TB to humans from carcass handling. Obviously, people in abattoirs hand cattle all the time with bova and tb, so there's no evidence. I looked into this before and there was one suspected case of transfer in the States once where it was passed into a hunter who wasn't wearing gloves and into a cut or something like that, but one ever. So there is no evidence of transferring bovine TB to humans. That's a respiratory. It's a respiratory. It's past respiratory.

And I even read somewhere online and by the way, I'm not recommending that. But that's. But apparently you can eat the meat of that deer, but then get.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Again, it's like, you wouldn't need that deer.

I wouldn't. I wouldn't. You know, there shouldn't be. It's not held in the meat, so there shouldn't be a reason not to. It's just, I suppose you have a bit of a nick and do you know, I'm shooting a lot of deer. I don't need to be eating the ones that have, you know, disease. But it's, it's. So most hunters will go through their entire hunting career and not shoot a deer that they see evidence of tb. And it appears that there are certain areas of Wicklow where TB in the deer population is more. But it doesn't appear to be an issue in other parts of Ireland. So it may be that if you're not shooting in Wicklow, you'll never see it. And most of my friends that shoot have never seen it.

Well, that's on one hand. This is a good, good indication. But just anecdotally from me talking with you, talking with hunters watching videos on YouTube either, I noticed that over the last two years that topic comes up more often and you see more videos with people, you know, like the typical YouTube video. Oh, here's I tell you how to deal with a deer with TB and even colleagues who are just messaging me.

Yeah.

And it's like, hey, you know, you know, such and such guy. I was like, no, what's happened? Like, oh, he shot a deer with tb and like, you know, so. And again, this is anecdotal.

Yeah.

But it would seem from where I see it sit, that it is coming, becoming more, more prevalent, more hacking it more often.

So I know ucd, and you, you obviously know Cillian. I think you've, you've spoken to Killian before. He's doing some research on this at the moment in tb, bovine TB in general. And I know he's got some new data that's going to be coming out soon. So maybe he's, he'll be good to have on the podcast in the future.

There's no way he's going to talk to me.

Yeah, he won't talk to you. But you never know. Like, science needs to be communicated. We've spoken about this before. Science needs to be communicated. Like, and you know, running the numbers without having the, you know, without talking about them is to me is just crazy because do you know, what's the point in doing the science and then not communicating the science?

Well, that was my thing and this is what I was talking to these scientists and it's like, hey, you know, I don't want to talk. Tell you. I don't want you to tell me anything that is not true or whatever. Right. And I'm not looking for controversy and you're doing the science, so.

Man.

No, like, one, one of the, one of the friendly farmers told me like, yeah, they're not going to talk to you because they don't want to be accused of being in bed with farmers. But then that I could see that equally going other way around. Yeah, it's just such a unfortunate.

It's a challenging thing to talk about. It's. And the same with the, the badger program, the wildlife program, where badgers are snared, vaccinated or culled. And you know, there isn't great communication around that. Like, if you try and find the information about. It's not online, you know, it's. It's very hard to see, you know, certainly if you're a farmer impacted by TB and you think rightly or wrongly, that that is because you're in an area that has a lot of deer or a lot of badgers, and then, you know, you don't have access to the underlying information and you're seeing at the moment, and we know this, you know, we're spending 150 million on the TB eradication program and the numbers are going the wrong way. So I think there does need to be a better communication strategy around bovine tb. And, you know, I Think as part of the new. Maybe the new deer management units that will be set up and if there's going to be a system of community larders and chillers and so on for hunters. Because, as you know, at the moment, it's very limited where you can bring your carcasses. Only three game dealers in Ireland. So what happens if you shoot an animal at the moment that has signs of tb? You have two choices. Either leave it on the hill, bury it, which often isn't an option. Like in the Wicklow uplands, trying to bury it with a spade is. Ain't gonna work. Right.

You'd be there all day, provided you have a spade.

Provided you've got a spade. But, you know, trying to dig into, you know, the. You know, into a sickest Bruce plantation or, you know, into a rocky Wicklow hillside can be. Can be challenging. So I think. I think. What. Or you can pay Larry Earls, the fallen animal service, €100 to come and pick up the carcass.

You know, so I want to stop you here because this is exactly the meat of the conversation that interests me. You a hunter, you shoot that deer.

Yeah.

Right. And you're cut into it. You're positive. Yeah. That's a tbd.

Well, first of all, you can't be positive because you haven't tested. So one of the things that you're told, when you did hcap, you were told it was free testing, weren't you?

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. There isn't.

And this is.

Well, there is and there isn't. So if you're. I believe the rules at the moment are if you are a farmer that's locked down with tb, if a hunter shoots a deer on your farm, you're asked to bring in a number of carcasses to Back Weston for testing. But that's like.

So Back Weston, just for people to know. Back Weston is a lab.

That's the main. The main lab where all the TB experts are. Yeah. And where the testing is done. So. But that's a kind of artificial cross section, right? Of. Yeah, because they're ones like that. Well, you know, there's TB there, and then you see one that's got evidence of TB and you bring in, of course, you're going to get a high rate. That's not like just taking a transect across a glen and Wicklow, you know, shooting 100 there and bringing all of them and testing them. So you're getting like a very, maybe artificially high amount. If you test ones that already look like they've got TB that are from TB hotspots. Yes, of course. So I think, yeah, maybe the approach will be.

But what you should do, like, what the. Like, what is the letter of law? At least the spirit of law, that once you have that deer, you should. You should. The first course of action is either to call the farmer that. That allowed you, that gave you permission to hunt, or you should, like, what. What is the theory, what you should do by the book.

Okay, so some. Again, this is my understanding it's very hard to find this written anywhere. But this is. You know, when a hunter goes through a HCAP or something like this, this is generally what they're told is it's a notifiable disease. So who do you notify? So you ring your regional veterinary office. In our case, it's enniscorthy. And you tell them. But when I tried that, they weren't interested. They were like, oh, we know deer have tb. What are you telling us? And I'm like, well, because I believed it was a notifiable disease, and I'm notifying, you know, do you not want to know where? Or, you know. And then I asked, well, where do I send the plug for testing? And they're like, well, if you want to test your deer, you can bring it to an agricultural vet in Rat Drum or whatever, and he'll test it for you and pay him, but we don't want that information. And I was like, oh, that isn't the way I was told it was supposed to work. And then I was like, well, when are you coming to pick up the carcass? I don't want to leave it on the land. And they're like, no, there's no. There's no.

And this is the big. And this is, you know, this is the biggest thing. And again, it's a contentious topic, so I need to be careful how I frame that. Let's say I was a part of the conversation with a number of hunters who are just. Let's call them young hunters, not necessarily age, but to the sport or to the hunting itself. And one of the very experienced hunter, and we had a conversation about the tb, and they were highlighting roughly what you said. And one of those young hunters asked like, okay, so what to do? Because we are going through this, and there's one lab, and you can bring it there and that. Right. But it's a. I don't know, 8pm on Friday. All those things are not working over the weekend. And here you are with that deer so what to do?

Yeah.

And the answer was one of the most telling yet unsatisfying answers that I heard, which was like, well, I'm not telling you what to do. I'm telling you what the law said.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's like, okay, so to me, and I think for everybody who is mindful of the risks should be like, what to do with a carcass now, because that carcass should be removed. Yeah.

But remember, Tommy, that animal was going to die at some stage anyway, whether it was shot by a hunter, hit by a car, or died of natural causes. So it was going to. TB stays in the animal. It wasn't any different when hunter was involved in the loop.

But now since you are involved, you have an opportunity to do something about it.

Yeah. And I think that's probably where there is a gap in the TB eradication program, in that maybe, you know, a more randomized testing would be a better approach. Because at the moment, you know, there's a narrative. In Wicklow, for example, oh, you know, the IFA labs or whatever will say, oh, 16% of deer in Wicklow have TB. It's not true. Like, the department will tell you that's not true. And you would see it, you know, like.

So department will tell you, but not on record.

Yeah, yeah, you would see yourself if you were, you know, if you were an active hunter that, you know, 16% of, you know, is just. It's probably less than 1%. I don't know how much less than 1%, but it's less than 1%. So.

So you have that deer, and so you have that deer linger out. Like, we established that there's no point of trying to notify anyone at this point, because no one is interested unless the land.

This is my experience. My experience was there was no point in telling anyone. There was no testing coming, and there was no. I paid my €100 to the fallen animal service just to prove the point that there was no carcass removal.

So tell us about that, because that was like in. This is why this conversation is so interesting that you one had all the knowledge that you supposed to have, which is. I would guess it's not that common among hunters. They would be very surprised what to.

Do just because they're not seeing. Because they're not seeing tv. The deer that they shoot, it's so rare that you will see it.

Exactly. So you already had that thing, and then you decided to go this extra. I wouldn't say extra mile. You went like extra 10 miles to get to the bottom of that thing. So. So tell us about this whole story of you. You try to dispose the carcass. You. You're driving around with the TB deer in the back of your truck.

Yeah. So that's like. So probably you shouldn't, you know, be moving it around in your vehicle. That's, you know, in hindsight, you're in whichever.

Like, whatever you do is.

Whatever you do is wrong. Like if you leave it on the hill and. And, you know, a lot of the places just, you know, I'm not maybe your regular deer hunter. And a lot of the places that I shoot deer are public access places. They are on Oga or Scouting island or other places that have public access. So leaving carcasses on the hill is not something that, you know, I would be. I would be doing now. Sometimes you can't retrieve your carcass. As, you know, if you shoot an animal, that animal can run with, you know, a heart and Lung shot 150 meters into a quilter block. And even with a thermal, you may not find that animal. Even with a dog, you may not find that animal. So my approach, even if I do a lot of humane dispatch callouts, as you know, I live in one of the areas where humane dispatch callouts are probably the most in the state. You know, between Glanded Downs and the nature reserve there. And Coins Cross is the hotspot for deer collisions in Ireland, probably. So I don't leave those animals on the side of the road. And after I've dispatched them, I put them through the same process as if I'd regularly hunted them. So I open them up, check for TB, and dispose of the carcass. But there isn't a. There isn't a system in place for. For disposal. I'm lucky. You know, I know a lot of farmers, and they have land that, you know, they can bury them and so on. But, you know, I think for. For most people, the decision is if you shoot a deer that has signs of tb, you open it up, you see the lungs and liver, and the inside is signs of tb, then you walk away. But often, as I said, in the place that I shoot, that's not an option.

Or bury, if you can bury is.

Yeah, yeah. Or at least bury the offal, the.

Lungs and all that. And so you drove to this incinerator. Is that how it's called?

No. The Fallen Animal Service have a truck and they come and pick up the carcass from you. Yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. Okay. Excellent. And the local hunters are still laughing at me because I paid €100 to get a. Yeah. An animal. They'd never had a call out for a deer before. Never. There is one service, so it's a fallen animal service.

That's how it's called. So people will need to look.

Yeah, that's if your horse dies or your. That is close to your livestock dies, they come with a truck and take it away. It goes into incineration. Yeah. I think it's technically category two waste, so. And there is a system for that, but it's €100 every call out. So. But again, if, you know, maybe that's something that could be covered by the department if they thought that. But then, you know, those animals are going to die on the hill anyway.

So probably you also want to want to notify the landowner. If it's a private farmer. A landowner, as a matter of courtesy.

Yeah. I guess where that becomes maybe problematic is if the landowner is a cattle farmer. They may have sensitivities about being informed or knowing or what do they do with that information?

You go, they say, hey, you can pretend that I never called you and we never had that conversation. But.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but. But in general, I don't shoot on farms. I'm shooting generally in native woodland schemes, often in behind deer fences. That would be my most kind of common place where I would go there.

I think there is a lot of listeners to this podcast who are shooting on farms and getting permissions on a farm. Maybe it's a good idea then to just up front ask the farmer, like, hey, in unlikely event I shit the deer with tb, do you want to know about it?

And that's the key thing, Tommy. It's in the unlikely event because most hunters will go through their entire hunting career and never see this. So do you know, for most hunters it isn't an issue. I think the amount of deer that are shot that have signs of TB is small. And I think it wouldn't be a huge deal to have just a protocol for notification, testing and disposal. Maybe the disposal bit would be a step too far. But I think perhaps what would be if there's going to be community larders and community chillers now as part of dmus, then having a seal skip that carcasses that are either not suitable for the food chain for other reasons, maybe, you know, they've been misshot or they.

Spoil.

They were in a road accident, so they were humane dispatch and things that are just not suitable for food. So those carcasses then have a place to be dropped rather than leaving them on the hill or, you know, trying to bury bury them in, you know, wicklow granite.

Okay, folks, you, you heard that firsthand here on this podcast what to do in the unlikely and unfortunate event of shooting deer with with tb. So I'm gonna be repeating that again. You can listen to it again if you want. But if you're, I presume what I'm taking away, like if you really want to be like buy the book and you have a spare hundred euro, then you should call the fallen animal service and dispatch of the animal. Otherwise try to bury it. Otherwise. Well, yeah, tough.

Yeah.

All right, thanks for that. That was folks, this is as good as we could do and I think that for the purpose of this podcast and for hunters, this is very useful. I will keep trying to get the scientists, infectious diseases experts to talk about the TB again.