Hey, I'm Bruce Weinstein, and this is the podcast cooking with Bruce and Mark.

And I'm Mark Scarborough, Bruce, we have written 40 books, 36 cookbooks, knitting books, I wrote a memoir. We're all over the place, and we're just getting started because we are in the process of editing a book. Editorial for our 37th book, which is actually related to what this podcast is about. Although we're not going to really talk about it instead. We've got a one minute cooking tip. Then we're going to talk about ketchup and mustard as a kind of culinary showdown. It is in many houses and it kind of is in ours. And we'll tell you what's making us happy in food this week. So let's get started.

Make your ketchup more interesting. by flavoring it up. You could add a pinch of five spice powder, some curry powder, a dash or two of hot sauce or a teaspoon or two of horseradish. It's all it takes. Maybe even a little bottle of teriyaki sauce, a little soy sauce. Make your ketchup more interesting. So you're talking about writing.

Wait, wait, wait. Um, so the writer's gonna want to know the process. So you're talking about putting some ketchup in a little bowl and then it. Adding a little curry powder, five spice powder, don't put it

in the jar because then you're horseradish, then you're flavoring the whole bottle and it's better just to do a little bit as you need.

Well, let's see. The writer wants accuracy in process. I did, but I wanted to make sure everyone understood what you meant doing for a long time. Everybody does. Yes. The writer wants accuracy and process. Okay, so that's about making ketchup better, and we're gonna now talk about, in fact, ketchup and mustard. It's a longer story than you might be able to imagine, and it is in fact a debate in many houses. We'll talk about that. But before we do, let me just say, it would be great if you could rate and even write a small review of this podcast on whatever platform you find us on, whether that be on Audible or. on Apple podcast. I know you can't write a review on Spotify, but wherever you are, if you could just even say nice podcast, that helps us with the algorithms and the law, that kind of mess that we worry about. And it's a good way for you to support our otherwise unsupported podcast. I'll say it.

Nice podcast.

Yeah, there you go. Nice podcast. So next, the great showdown between ketchup and mustard.

When we have hot dogs in our house. One of us, not me, always reaches for the mystery. Okay, so I'm

going to stop right here. I always have to stop you. You too. I never get a word in. I know. I'm sorry. But I think this is really kind of funny because I think that a lot of people, if they knew about us, they know that, you know, I'm from a Christian background, and you're from a Jewish background. And I think they would. assume that the Christian reaches for the ketchup and the Jew reaches for the mustard. But in fact, it's the opposite at our house.

My parents always put mustard on hot dogs, but I reach for the ketchup. Mark reaches for the mustard, as does 71 percent of Americans, according to a Harris poll. You mean

71 percent of Americans reach for mustard with hot dogs? They do. Okay, I have to tell you that I cannot. Tolerate Ketchup on hot dogs. It grosses me out.

Oh, I was watching it interview the other day

get it

Somebody was interviewing Barack Obama from years ago when he was still living in Illinois and running for you know And someone said, would you ever allow ketchup on a hot dog? And he's like, no way. That should be, he even said that should be illegal. Oh, there you go. Illegal.

Well, there's government overreach for you. Uh, I just, it's hot dogs are kind of sweet. And the buns are always super sweet, and then there's ketchup.

But they're salty, and it's the sweet of the ketchup with the salt. Look, I even like to put ketchup on a corned beef sandwich. Yeah, you even

put

ketchup on eggs. Oh, ketchup is so good on eggs. Well, I will tell you that The National Hot Dog and Sausage Council. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, Who, who, who, who is hired for the National Hot Dog and Sausage Council? What is that interview like?

It's

What, what, and let me go a little further with that since I want to try to do this. What is their third Thursday at 2 p. m. like if you work for the National Hot Dog and Sausage Council?

I don't know, but there is a National Hot Dog and Sausage Council.

It's, that's not, it's like, it's, it's, it's, it's apartment 3G in New York City. That's not a real thing. Okay.

And today, this council has publicly stated their disapproval of adults using ketchup on hot dogs. Oh, wait a minute. Now, I want to interview. Yeah, I want to interview with the National Hot Dog and Sausage Council. Look, I, look, my parents did put mustard on hot dogs, but Pretty much, I grew up in a ketchup family. Look, there was always ketchup on the table. It's

so funny that the Weinsteins are a ketchup family.

When my, when my dad would grill steaks, the ketchup would come out because I liked ketchup on it. When hamburgers came out, the ketchup came out. And when I stayed at my grandparent's, alright, my mother's father, Joe, he Loved ketchup. He put it, he dipped green beans in ketchup. No! He put ketchup, he's the one who taught me about ketchup and eggs. And my grandma Rose, I've said this before in this podcast, her big culinary delight she would make for me are noodles with cream cheese and ketchup. Oh man. And it would melt into like So goes the mythology of the great Jewish cooks. Oh no, she wasn't a very good cook. But she made that lakshmi with cream cheese and it was like a creamy tomato sauce because she added ketchup.

Oh! Just Okay, so in my house. If you started to put ketchup on a hot dog, I'm serious about this, my mother would stop us if, let's say, my brother or I were beginning to put ketchup on a hot dog. Well, a hamburger, we wouldn't, but okay, let's pretend we were putting it on a hamburger. She would stop us and she would always have the same sentence. She would say, I raised you better than that,

but you'd still be allowed to use it.

Wouldn't

you?

I raised you better than that. Okay. We put mustard on everything. Everything. But

didn't your family

ever have fast food, hamburgers? No? No. No, I didn't grow up on fast food. Oh. We didn't ever. I don't Okay, so, here's the truth. I don't think I've ever been to a Burger King. I know I've been to a Wendy's. And I know I've been to a McDonald's.

What about a Wetsons?

I don't even know what that is. Yeah, that was

a New York

thing. You made me go to a stupid White Castle once, and I almost didn't make it home to the bathroom. So, um, I don't know anything really about fast food. We didn't, okay, no, that's not true. Okay, when I was a little, little kid, I have very vague memories of being like four years old and sitting in the back of the car and we would go to A& W Root Beer back in the day when they would still roll it out on roller skates. That's how old I am. And they would bring out the trays on roller skates to your car. Oh, the drive in, that was real. I still remember that. But I also remember going to the drive in movie and my mother being appalled when we went to go get hamburgers and all they had was ketchup for the hamburgers and my mother was Absolutely.

Well, she wouldn't eat hers. Ketchup is the best. I didn't like mustard. I wouldn't eat mustard as a kid. There was a list of things I wouldn't eat. But now I like mustard. But here's the thing, hot dogs aside, and all of that, ketchup is the king of condiments.

I just want to say, I just find it so funny that my mother thought I was of condiments as a class issue,

that

ketchup was lower class and we didn't put it on. So that we were not upper class. We were solidly middle class people. Would she group

people who used ketchup as the same people who drank sweet tea? Yes.

I am from the South. And when I was coming up in the South, my mother said that sweet tea was what poor Georgians drank. It was always Georgia was our example of poor people. And it was what poor people in Georgia drank was sweet tea. It was not. My mother put lemon period in iced tea and I still do, right? I still do to this day. I only put lemon in iced tea. I mean,

we look, we're a bunch of New York Jews. Iced tea came out of a packet. Oh, nasty, instant, pre sweetened, artificial lemon flavor. And my grandmother made it, my mother made it. My mother

would ask in restaurants, is it brewed? When she would order iced tea, she would say, is it brewed? Like, it was like, okay, we're way off. But we're talking about class and condiments. Well. So let's talk about ketchup since it is a global

thing. It is the king of condiments. In the U. S. alone last year, six billion with a B. Billion dollars in sales. That's a lot of ketchup. It's everywhere. It's everywhere. I mean, we probably have a few little packets in our junk drawer upstairs in the kitchen if I were to go look for them right now. I mean, most people do, right? It's

like And people have really Big, uh, likes and dislikes about ketchup, like my sister in law, right? She has a thing, right? What ketchup does she like? She will

only eat Heinz. Right. And if we go into a restaurant See, it doesn't even register

with me because I'm not a ketchup person. She

will only eat I wonder, because I know that sometimes they go to McDonald's, and you know McDonald's broke off their deal with Heinz years ago. No, I don't know. Because the company that owned Heinz had a whole deal with Burger King. They don't go

to, they don't go to McDonald's. No, they go to, they like to go to Freddy's. Okay. That's a compelling theory. Fred is, is,

you know, McDonald's makes their own ketchup. Now they have like an industrial ketchup table. They stopped using Heinz because the Burger King and it's all rivalry. But ketchup is everywhere except in Canada.

Well, no, come on. And in Belgium and in France and you're, but yes, it ketchup is a global food at this point, but many people consider it. It's kind of a badge of honor outside of the borders of the United States that we are not U. S. based. And so they want another condiment. And in France, in Belgium, in Canada, it's mayonnaise.

Okay, but the, the, the national food in Canada are French fries. And you have to ask for the ketchup. I was appalled. They just give me mayonnaise. Thinking, I want mayonnaise. Mayonnaise is gross. And the last thing I want to do is put fries in it. Mm mm-Hmm. So they brought me, I'm gonna, I, when I asked,

I ate mayonnaise. I'm gonna quote Flannery O'Connor, when, when you're in a foreign country, do as you done in Georgia So I ate whatever. They gave me you, we're going to be Flattery O'Connor, and do what you've done in Georgia and put your ketchup on everything. But we should say that ketchup is truly a global food, and if you don't know this, ketchup in fact is a word itself that comes from ancient Chinese culture, and this is one of the reasons why you have that problem of how to spell it, ketchup with a K. It's because you're trying to transliterate Chinese characters. No, I thought it was

that Hunts made cats up Well, they did, but it's all a

transliteration, ultimately, going back kitsy

ep kind of condiment. And it goes as far back as the 17th century, and it was made of mushrooms and fish. fish and oysters and fermented things and nuts. And I don't think, I don't think my sister in law would like it.

No, no, I didn't. And if you don't know about, uh, ketchup manis, it's kind of weird pronunciation to it, ketchup manis, but ketchup manis, and I'm still butchering it, but it's an Indonesian Holland. Condiment, an Indonesian Dutch condiment, all those wacky

Dutch I

know, and it's a way that the Dutch during Colonialization took over an Indonesian condiment and kind of morphed it more toward a Dutch sauce. But now Kechum niece is just absolutely

associated with Indonesian cuisine. However, when you look at every bottle of it, and most people are still gonna call it ketchup Manis, right? When you look at every bottle of it, they're almost all made in Holland. Yeah. And it's basically a thick, sweetened soy sauce kind of mixture. But it's hard

to even have an Indonesian recipe without it in it. But yeah, it's this weird, uh, cross cultural thing that happened in colonialism. And if you don't know about it, it actually is a really amazing condiment on its own. It has, it has a lot of really big big, salty flavors to it.

For me, it's a key ingredient when I do like lo mein and stir fried noodles. I love it in that you can use it instead of oyster sauce if you're opposed to eating oyster sauce because it does have oyster extractives in it. You can use that ketchup manis and that would be perfectly fine. But the tomato ketchup that we're used to. didn't really show up until the 20th century. Right. It is a very modern invention. Mm hmm. By Henry Hines. Right. And the name behind it. He wanted to use tomatoes, which are rich in pectin and do get thick, and he wanted to cook that down and use vinegar and sugar as a preservative. You

know, I wonder, and this is completely just speculation on my part. I haven't done a lick of research, so here I am on a podcast saying it.

The research is left to Bruce.

As is typical of podcasts, I'm just gonna say whatever I think. whether it's true or not. Anyway, um, I wonder if the original Heinz ketchup was more truly sweet sour because now to me, it's vaguely sour and almost all sweet. I disagree.

I,

for me, it's

vinegary.

What? Vinegar as in there may be an open bottle of vinegar near it when it's made. We disagree. I disagree on that. No, it's not vinegar. It's no more vinegary or acidic than a tomato, but that's what I think. Anyway, I wonder if it has gotten more sugary as time goes on. It's certainly gotten added corn syrup now. Yes, now it has corn syrup. Which wouldn't have probably been part of the original formulation. No, but you

shouldn't go to stores that sell ketchup without corn syrup. You know, they're all trying to copy Heinz, though, right? That is basically the base that everyone's going after. I have

to say that the Millennials and Gen Zs, as if I can talk about this as a whole thing, I hate when people talk in terms of generations.

Categorically.

I know, I hate this categorical thinking, but younger entrepreneurs who are starting food businesses are starting a lot. of ketchup businesses, and they are variously flavored ketchups, not the standard. And they're trying to make them more, uh, homecrafty, more homemade tasting. Uh, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a wrestle. Um, in the book that we're currently working on in editorial, I just want to tell you that there is a recipe for standard quote, unquote, standard ketchup in there. And We struggled with that recipe. We went back and forth and back and forth over it. Because I kept saying, but it doesn't taste like, and then we said, well, does it need to taste like? I think in

the end, it does taste like, because we have a bunch of ketchup recipes in the book. And there is one that we tried to make taste like, that one that comes right out of the bottle that Henry came up with back in the early 20th century. I know, but I still think it's

not exactly right. But it was, it secret blend of spices. I know, it was a really problematic issue in the book. Well, we should just say, while we're talking about the roots of ketchup, we should just say the roots of mustard are much, much, much longer and bigger. We know that there were some types of mustards running around in England. In Egypt, maybe 3000 BCE.

Yeah, see the pharaohs were putting mustard on their hot dogs, not ketchup.

And on their dead servants, but that's a whole other matter. Um, so, uh, you know, we know that there are all kinds of pastes, and most of the mustards were made, as paste with great must. That's often a residue of a fermentation process and mustard seeds and spices. We have recipes for those kind of pace that date back to the early first century common era. Maybe

that's what the pyramids were coded in mustard and they were just mustard colors. Yes, that must

be it. And that's why they don't look smooth anymore. That's surely the answer. Uh, we should just say that once again, the St. Louis. World's Fair is the origination point for what most people think of as mustard, at least in the United States, because that's where Robert French introduced his mild mustard. And if you know anything about that mustard, it's mild. Of course, it spurts way too much out of the bottle, but it's not the deli mustard. It's not strong. I grew up on German mustard, which because a German immigrant family. So I grew up on this really no spanking mustard. The yellow stuff that French's make. That's still not for me. It still wouldn't count for my mother as mustard either, so there you go.

That 1904 World's Fair was kind of crazy. There were so many food things that started and became national trends at that fair. The ice cream cone became a thing there. Peanut butter became a national thing there. Even iced tea was served there, which had never really been a thing.

It's what it was, was an introduction to the mechanization of these things. I mean, like, peanut butter had been around before that fair, but it introduced it on a mechanized industrial scale, and it made it up to, as they say, an economy. economy of scale and became national products. We should just say, in case you don't know, mustard is healthier for you than sugary ketchup. Mustard has about five calories per serving, whereas ketchup has about 20. So it is a lower, mustard is lower in calories.

And mustard's also way more versatile, despite the fact that I will reach for ketchup every time. I am not going to put ketchup in my salad dressing, I'm not going to add it to a stew, but I will add mustard. And it's a key ingredient where ketchup just wouldn't work, Grandma Rose, notwithstanding. Yes, that's true. Mustard probably would have been better on those noodles.

And when I was in grad school, when I was getting my PhD in Madison, Wisconsin Madison, I should tell you that I went to several times the National Mustard Museum in Wisconsin. It was amazing. At the time it was in a town outside of Madison. I understand it's now moved to Middleton, which is a suburb of Madison. It's really just kind of part of Madison at this point. But the National Mustard Museum there in Middleton, Wisconsin currently has what, over 5, 000 mustards on display. I remember when it was this little storefront in this little rural town, and I don't think they had 5, 000, but they did have a lot of mustards on display.

But I will say this. Final final parting word on ketchup. It makes great fake blood on Halloween. Oh

That's about the best you can say for it. I completely agree with this sentence before Get to the final segment of our podcast. Let me say that we do have a newsletter In fact, the newsletter that is attached to this podcast is gonna have some of our favorite favorite ketchups and mustards in it. You can order them and check them out yourself. If you want to sign up for that newsletter, you can find a way to do that online at our website, cooking for some art. com there. You can leave your name and email and I don't capture it. And the program doesn't capture it. And the mail provider can't capture it. So you can unsubscribe at any time, but a newsletter connected to this podcast, we'll have some of our favorite ketchups. and mustards in it that you could sample on your own and how to order them. All right. As is traditional, the final segment, what's making us happy in food this week, and I'm going to go first and that is lemon pear bar cookies. I tried one of these. Um, I'm currently teaching a lot right now. I am leading a once a month poetry discussion in which we discuss a collection of poetry once a month. I lead that. three book groups, three book discussion groups. And at two different locations, I'm giving eight week seminars on the novels of Eudora Welty. And in all of his teaching, I always bring treats for break. I mean, listen, you really don't want to listen to me for two hours without a break. So I bring a treats for break and Bruce often makes them for me. And he made these lemon pear bar cookies, carved down in five seconds. Lemon

pear marmalade that went in the middle of these bar cookies was homemade.

Yeah. Well, that

does help. What made them lemon pear. Yeah, that

does help that you've got homemade marmalade in there.

What's making me happy are kasha varnishkas.

Oh. And if

you Back to your Grandma Rose. No, Grandma Rose, no, she did actually. So if you don't know what that is, it is bowtie pasta that is tossed in a skillet with caramelized onions. Wait, what

have the onions been caramelized in?

Oh, in duck fat or chicken fat. There you go. You toss in cooked, toasted buckwheat, also known as kasha. So you got kasha varnishkes. We were at a friend's for dinner. It was Mark's and my 28th anniversary of being together. It was. And a friend made us a beer. big beautiful dinner and he served, among other things, Kasha Varnishkas and that made me very happy. It,

it, it's a delicious thing and um, I, I can't help it even though I was raised in a mustard Christian world. I love Kasha Varnishkas, so there you go. There's the podcast for this week. Thanks for joining us. And making time in your schedule for our podcast. We appreciate your being on this journey

with us. And every week we tell you what's making us happy in food. So please go to our Facebook group Cooking with Bruce and Mark and tell us what's making you happy in food this week because we want to know. And if it's really fun and delicious sounding, we might even make it and try it here on Cooking with Bruce and Mark.