Hello and welcome to this bonus episode of America A History Recorded straight after our recently published episode, what was the Sand Creek Massacre.

I'm joined now by my guest from this episode, Jacqueline Fear Siegel from UEA to discuss this a little bit more.

Jackie, thank you for sticking around.

Pleasure.

It's good to be here.

Yeah.

And it was honestly eye opening and a little bit shocking actually to hear the details of what happened at Sand Green Creek.

Mainly because it sounds like these kind of events were not sort of anomalies.

Maybe on this scale it was.

But you know, the treatment of Native Americans like this was, was a common occurrence, right?

Absolutely.

I mean, I think the military, the idea that you could suppress Native nations militarily was obviously quite strong, but of course it was expensive and there were, look, that's why they were looking for other ways that they could control, suppress and in brackets, civilized to make them more congenial neighbours.

It's just, it's mad to me that they were still so hell bent on doing this even during like the Civil War when they had far bigger issues to deal with and they, they had literally another enemy in the Confederacy who were, who were literally attacking them and yet they still felt like they had to continue this crusade west and go after Native American tribes at the same time.

It just does that.

Is that indicative of the sort of the racism and the hatred that they had towards these communities?

Definitely indicative of the racism and hatred and also indicative of the determination to settle the continent.

And it was being interrupted by the Civil War.

But the Civil War also helped by developing things like the railways and helped the way in which settlement could take place and the federal government was determined to settle the nation.

Sea to shining sea was seen as, you know, the motto.

So.

Yes.

And it was during the Civil War, as I said before, that Lincoln approved the largest mass hanging that's ever occurred in the United States states of the Lakota of the Dakota leaders and warriors up in Minnesota.

So just because there was a civil war going on didn't mean that the fight against Native nations ceased.

Yeah.

And it.

So in a really early episode of the podcast we were talking about gun control and sort of, you know, how much a life is worth to protect people's that second amendment right to own a gun.

Even though, you know, when you break it down there's not a lot of rational sense for it.

But I feel like the same kind of applied even way back when we were talking about, you know, US Native relations in that, you know, to, to American settlers at the time building railways and expanding west and.

And fulfilling this manifest destiny was worth the cost of the lives to Native American communities because it was almost filling a greater purpose.

Right.

Absolutely.

They were seen as historically.

Well, they were seen as ahistorical.

There were people whose time had come, and it was the march of civilization that was.

And if it trampled over them, if it trampled over these native nations, that might be sad, but it was inevitable.

It was seen as an inevitable development that the United States should essentially farm this land, own this land, and that the superior form of government, because, remember, they really believed that they had a superior form of government, should dominate, and that savages, as they were described and seen as, particularly by somebody like chivington, but all those people in California who.

Who were the governor of California, saw them as savages who could not contribute anything to this modern new nation.

Yeah.

And I think the reason that the.

The idea of, like, gun control today struck me as a parallel is because it's like this.

It just feels like there's an unwavering patriotism in America that, you know, to sort of honor the constitution and people's right to do certain things, even if that means there's a human life, you know, sacrifice to.

To maintain that, you know.

Well, nowadays, it's obviously the sacrifice of mostly of American citizens, but in then, it was.

It was the sacrifice of people who were not considered to be equal to American citizens.

Yeah.

Well, and of course, there's this.

I mean, there's still arguments going on today over as to whether or not certain people consider everyone equal.

And I'm sure that conversations are still happening with regards to Native Americans as well.

You know, it seems that we're still far from a society where Native Americans are given the same opportunities as.

As other people.

But, I mean, maybe that's a separate conversation.

But I am.

I'm curious to know sort of today, you know, what recognition there has been from the federal government over the historic treatment of Native Americans.

Well, I do think there has been a massive recognition of the rights and the cultures of native peoples.

There is more readiness to allow them aspects of their culture to be practiced.

There's much more.

Since the 1970s, a whole series of legislation has come down protecting their religious rights, protecting their land rights.

And most recently, I think one of the most surprising but also very powerful things is that president Biden appointed a secretary of the interior who is herself native.

She's Laguna Pueblo.

So the appointments of Debs Harland as secretary of the interior basically allowed a native American to be in charge of the lands over which Native people were living.

And that has brought a lot of issues to the fore.

She has spoken out very forcefully for Native people.

She's also spoken out very forcefully about the genocide that took place in the schools.

Because the destruction of people's culture, which enables them to function as a separate people, is recognized by the UN as genocide.

And she has pushed on the issue of discovering where all the cemeteries are, where all the schools were.

And then, most recently, in the dying days of his presidency, just 10 days before the election, President Binding, President Biden did something no other president dared do, and he apologized for the government's role in setting up and running this campaign of cultural elimination, because there were, the government supported over 500 Indian boarding schools.

So President Bison went to Arizona and spoke out, and he called it a sin on our soul.

So he made it, gave it a religious flavor.

And in his apology, he basically agreed that what was done by the federal government for over 150 years had been wrong.

And that obviously all those students that have been packed off to these boarding schools and taken away from their families and their communities, often for more than a decade, losing all contact with their culture and as has been shown, losing the capacity to parent, losing the ability to know quite who they were.

And it's led to endless problems of drug abuse and depression and incapacity to maintain stable relationships.

So the apology goes way beyond saying, you know, we're sorry, just that we set up these schools.

It goes into an understanding that the schools have had an awful legacy on Native Americans.

So something like Sand Creek, which was a physical destruction of people, is obviously horrific.

And we can look at the details and feel horrified, but partly because the Friends of the Indian, so called White Friends of the Indian, saw it as the humane way.

It's taken quite a long time for the boarding schools to also be saying as equally horrific because they basically offered education for extinction rather than military annihilation.

Yeah.

And I think there's an awful lot that we should discuss there and, you know, culminating in that apology from Biden.

And, you know, we'll catch up next year, I think, once the new administration is in full swing, to sort of maybe discuss exactly what happened, why there was an apology, and the fallout of that in the months since.

Because I think you're right, there's something really important there about how, as we discussed on the episode, it was almost seen as a kindness to welcome Native Americans into American society.

And the kind of the cultural extermination that was happening there just was almost treated like an act of generosity to Native Americans.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

You're absolutely right.

It was.

It was seen allowing them to join this wonderful experiment, become civilized.

And it was also, I mean, somebody like Jefferson didn't believe that Native peoples were inferior.

It was their cultures that were inferior.

And if only they could get rid of that, then they would be all right.

Yeah.

And it's.

It's.

I mean, it's crazy to think, you know, looking back now with the.

The knowledge that we have, that that was ever considered.

Okay.

And I just wonder if, you know, any lessons have been learned since Sand Creek and the, you know, previous treatment.

Because an apology is one thing, but, you know, what's actually been done to acknowledge that.

I think that's what the real question is, and that's what a lot of Native people are saying.

Yes, we are grateful for the apology, but what next?

Where's it going to lead?

What are you going to do for us in our various ways?

You know, what.

Where can this.

How can this be used as a foundation for improving the situation of Native peoples who are all now American citizens, and quite rightly so, and that is their citizenship, as well as being members of Native nations.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, still, we are.

We are still experiencing a lot of the consequences of events that happened, even like, Sand Creek 160 years ago, as the US continue to try and repair that seemingly irreparably damaged relationship that they have with Native Americans.

So there's a lot more for us to be discussing on the podcast, which we will do, but thank you.

And I think we've also seen with what's going on more broadly in the world that the issue of land and the occupation of land and who owns it, who controls it, and who lives on it is a horrible living issue which blights the lives of millions.

Absolutely.

And, you know, we're recording this literally, like, 24 hours before the US election, and, you know, Donald Trump is continuing his crusade for, like, mass deportation.

And it's like, well, you know, you're not Native American, so that kind of involves you as well.

Right.

Like, anyone.

Anyone who's not Native American is an immigrant in the U.S.

right.

Unless.

Yeah, unless the forced immigration of the African population.

They're slightly different, of course.

Yeah, yeah.

Which, yeah, it's a.

Is another whole gallows we need to be discussing on this podcast at some point.

But, Jackie, thank you so much.

It's always a pleasure to get you on this podcast and kind of bring Native American history to the forefront.

So just remind our listeners before we wrap this up, where they can get in touch and sort of find out more from you.

They can find me on Facebook, can Find me on LinkedIn, and can use my UEA email address, which you can also find online.

But it is j.fear siegel.ac.uk wonderful.

And we'll put that in the show notes along with some other links, and, of course, a link to the main episode as well, where we discuss the Sand Creek Massacre in more detail.

So if you haven't listened to that already, please do go and check that out and give the podcast to follow so that all future episodes just appear in your feed as well.

And as always, you can support the show from as little as one pound or for three pound a month.

You get early access to stuff like this, which is nice.

So thank you for listening and for supporting the show, and goodbye.