Welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host, Dr. G, and we are joined tonight by Dan Ettinger, from the Animal Control Report. Thanks, Dan from being here.

Thanks for having me back. I'm really excited to be part of the show and it's good to be friends of podcasts, so this is exciting to come back and, and chat. Chat again. Yes.

I think that this is really cool that we can, have this podcast relationship, and we do things that are different but similar. So kind of being able to share our experiences. So one of the main reason I invited you over is because something I know that you're kind of passionate about, that you talk about, and something that I believe in. It's issues that happen because of people not following leash laws. So as an animal control officer, what can you explain what are leash laws and what the importance of these leash laws are?

Absolutely. So most, like of your, I would say most of your, like busy or urban setting places have a leash law, which means that that animal, the dog, has to be controlled by a leash or cord. Typically no greater than six feet, depending on your ordinances, but that's gonna vary wherever you go. So the, the, that's one aspect of like how the law's written. And then the other part of it is some places will allow for voice command. Instead of having the, the dog on a leash, you'll find that in more of your small towns or your, your rural areas, places that aren't just populated as much. When you think about leash laws in general, I don't wanna say they're like relatively new, but there is some, uh, History that goes along with it. So, uh, some of our listeners probably aren't old enough to remember the times of like, you'd have a dog and then the dog would kind of go out in the morning. You'd just open the door, the dog would run out and then come back home later at night. And if, uh, I'm, I'm pretty sure you're familiar with Temple Grandin. Yeah. Yes, yes I am. Yes. She, she's a professor at, uh, Colorado State University, and she's wrote a book. I recommend anybody, anybody, everybody to read it. It is called Animals Make Us Human. And in that book, uh, she talks about this specific thing about leash laws. And it, it's really an, it's really just captivating, in my opinion, how the increase of dog attacks, bites, and aggression. Kind of is synonymous with leashes. And you'll see that that barrier aggression, if you're walking a dog down the street and it sees another dog on a leash and maybe it's not well trained, it's gonna be pulling, barking, trying to go over to that dog. And so her philosophy on it was when they used to run free and, and she understands that that can't happen anymore. But when they used to run free, that didn't, that behavior didn't necessarily exist in our pet population. So the, the whole concept of like, and why. Temple Grandin says like, there needs to be leash laws. Think about it. I mean, we, our communities are busy. We have vehicles whipping around at 40 miles an hour on 25 mile an hour streets. If not faster. Uh, we have disease, right? So there's that propensity of all sorts of diseases, which is totally in your wheelhouse. Dr. G, when we talk about some of those communicable diseases, uh, we have behavioral issues. We have kids at bus stops, we have people, you know, just cruising outside on a bike or a skateboard or one of those electric one wheel skateboard looking things that I really want. Um, I think they have a name, but I dunno what they're called. Um, So the need for public safety. Is why we have the Leash law in that aspect, right? Because dogs getting hit by cars. It's not a, you know, not something we wanna see. We don't wanna see people get bit. It's actually kind of interesting cuz a recent episode we had on the Animal Control Report podcast. Uh, we chatted with the Community Cats podcast and I don't know if you've checked them out, they have a really cool podcast going on. But I asked the question and I was somewhat serious, but somewhat not serious about, why don't we just TNR dogs in this country and free up space and shelters, right? Uh, and it's just due to all those things I just mentioned, right? You're gonna have dogs getting hit by cars, dogs attacking people, orno, other animals, et cetera. Whereas cats, you know, they're smaller, they're more elusive, et cetera. Uh, though they can pose public safety risks like rabies and maybe some. You know, some other things. At the end of the day, dogs just kind of carry that. I, I would say threats maybe, I don't know if that's the right word, but carry that possible, you know? cause of an issue, whether it's, running at large and biting somebody, et cetera. So that's kind of my, my long answer to that. Um, but I really recommend if, if you're into reading and you haven't read Animals Make Us Human by Temple Grandin. I really recommend picking that up. And then you'll see what she's talking about in the dog, the dog part.

I did listen to that podcast with Stacy and she's great. Uh, and. Yeah, the, the whole point being from Puerto Rico and Puerto Rico, there's a lot of stray dogs. Mm-hmm. So there's a huge population of dogs at large. So something like TNR is actually done in some areas because there is no way of just picking up the dogs and taking them to shelters or whatever. These dogs are living at the beach or living in whatever areas. So it is somewhat of a TNR type program. Uh, you don't tip their ears clearly, but um, but I do think that, that it helps somewhat control the population. But yeah, like here, here in Ohio, and I'm sure in most places, most parts of the United States, cats are outside, you immediately think of, okay, it's an outdoor cat, or it's a stray cat, or it lives outside. But immediately if you see a dog outside, the first thought that comes to somebody is it's a lost dog. Mm-hmm. It ran away it or somebody kicked it out. Mm-hmm. So there's no such thing quite as outdoor dogs, like wild

dogs in, in our, in our, in our country. Whereas it is common in, you're absolutely right. Yeah, absolutely. Right. It's an interesting concept. Yeah. And I don't know if we'll ever get to a point where, um, I don't know if we'll ever get to a point where that will happen, where we just start putting dogs back in the community in that aspect. But I will say that, um, leash laws are important and, and what I'll say about the voice command, uh, it's nice, uh, but it's not a leash law. It's, you know, it's mm-hmm. Something to put in place to, I think, um, just have some, you know, some sort of like coverage. If there is liability or if there is an issue, there's no liability. So, um, but at the end of the day, I'm not a fan of, of those, I'm a fan of like having designated areas where dogs can exercise and be off leash, but like just walking down your sidewalk. That's one of my biggest pet peeves just in general as a human, is like you're on a busy, busy road and you're walking your dog off leash down the sidewalk and you know it's an animal that still is instinctual and could chase after a squirrel or could, you know, get enticed to run right. And I think that that's a little bit, um, naive of the owner to think that, well, it's my dog and it won't ever, you know, do anything wrong. So,

And you have to worry about not just your dog, you have to worry about the other animals, right? Because then, okay, your dog may be okay with other dogs, but then you're walking and your dog thinks that it's gonna be friends with some other dog that is leashed. Mm-hmm. But that dog is leashed because it's not okay with. With other dogs, and then they get into a fight, and then who's, whose fault is that? You know, we get into, into the concept of who, whose liability is it? And then regardless of whose fault it is, the end result is the dog is injured, or the dog is hurt, or the dog is dead. Oh,

absolutely. And then a person probably gets injured too, cuz they're gonna try to break it up. Right. And I think that's the other part of it. So, and that scenario that you talk about, it's really interesting. If you look at ordinances, typically, uh, you could look at some state statutes. An affirmative defense to a dog attack may not include. The attacking dog being at large, right? So think about that for an example. Let's say my dog's on leash and I have a dog that I know is reactive, though my dog, my personal dog is not, he'd be like, Hey, what's going on, dude? Um, but like, let's say I, I, um, had that dog and I'm, I'm allowed to be outside and walk my dog. Should I, my, my question to you, Dr. G, is, should I have my dog wear a basket muzzle because I know he's reactive or she's reactive? Me

personally, I mean, I feel more comfortable with dogs wearing a basket muscle if there is a concern. Mm-hmm. Because there can be, there can be issues. For example, like I have my dog on a leash, I trip, I fall, something happens, that leash comes off my hand, my dog is loose. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, there are different things. A basket muscle doesn't hurt anything, especially a basket muscle that is properly fitted to the dog. Right? Correct. So it's not gonna hurt any, any dog. We use basket muscles in practice in our, at our clinic. If we have a dog that we're concerned that it may become aggressive, we don't wait until the bite happens, right? Sure. We don't wait until the aggression happens. We use that basket muzzle just as a way to feel more confident, cuz also animals. Can feel when we are scared and when we're not confident. So if absolutely putting that muzzle on allows my team to approach the animal with confidence, that's gonna make the dog feel a little bit more at ease, as opposed to if we are being like, really, um, scared, then the dog's gonna feel like, well, why are you scared of me? Clearly I have to be scared of you. So I think that basket muzzles are underutilized in many situations.

I do too. And I, I guess I ask this question as generally if I'm a, if, let's just say my name's John and I don't really care. Like, I'm just like, eh, I got a reactive dog. So what, like keep your dog on leash. I. Am I, I mean, I'm being negligent in some aspects I would think, right? Like mm-hmm. I, I would think that like, um, having that knowledge, so let, let's say I'm investigating this. Let's turn the page here and say I'm in invest investigating a dog attack that occurred and, and we'll say John's walking his mixed dog, 70 pound just big dog, and it's aggressive and. The complainant or the victim in this situation was just, you know, cruising around in the neighborhood, had their dog off leash and it wanted to go say hi and got attacked. Now some animal control officers and I'd love feedback. So send feedback to me atDaniel@humanemain.com or Dr. G through uh, her platform. Cause I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as an animal control officer and how you would handle this. I would say, You can still cite both parties, so you can cite the person for having the dangerous dog that attacked the dog at large. But then you can also cite the owner for having the dog at large. It's like two wrongs. Don't make a right, like they're both wrong and they're could potentially be some, you know. I, I would say like punishment, whether it's the dog that attacked, has to wear a muzzle court ordered muzzle, or whether it's the person that had their dog off leash has to, you know, make sure that they follow the leash laws. You know, I think that's, I think what we find in our profession is, and I'll be honest, and I'm, I'm guilty of it too, at times. Sometimes officers are busy. They have just, you know, whatever's going on. Maybe they have a personal view of the situation, but they find ways to not maybe do the case just based on facts. They might put their own emotion into it. That's a whole nother episode.

And it's, uh, and it's an issue that goes beyond just the dogs that are aggressive and everything else. Um, you know, today I had this case, so, um, little dog, four pound dog. Was off leash and went into the neighbor's yard, and then it got caught by a trap, by a groundhog trap, and the groundhog trap fractured its leg. So the little dog ended up having to have the leg amputated and thankfully the, the dog is okay. This family had just gotten this, this dog from another family member. So the concern becomes, you know, everybody is of course really angry at this neighbor for having this trap, which is inhumane. And that's a. And a whole other episode as far as why those traps should not exist. But then the question is, are they really at fault for this dog having a fracture leg when the dog actually went into their yard off leash?

So the, I would love to know what the law is on those traps. So a lot of, lot of states I know ban most inhumane traps, right? So the leg snare traps, um, they have, uh, the swift kill traps. That'll sever or several, several Wow. Sever the spinal cord. You know what I'm trying to say? Here's a lot of words. Um, versus the box trap, the humane trap. And so if it's an inhumane trap, I would investigate it, um, because you could hold him liable for the cruelty to the dog. Um, absolutely. Like without question, if he put out, and we know he put out the trap, uh, he could be responsible for the vet bills, et cetera, with in, in regard, you know, the ticket itself of being, uh, of having animal cruelty too. So that's a whole nother

subject.

That's what we need to, because honestly, quite honestly, I mean, it's the first time that I have been involved in a case like this, so I don't know what the, what the laws are regarding those traps. Personally, I feel that they're inhumane because it's just inhumane to mame any kind of animal for whatever reason. Yeah. Right. So, um, okay. Yeah, they're, they're coming in and they're digging holes in your yard or whatever that, that's no reason to just. Be cruel to an animal that way. There are, there are better ways of dealing with it. but yeah, you know, it's the, it's the fact of it sucks that the dog got into that situation and then it's a situation that potentially could have been avoided had the dog not been loose and, without the owners at that time.

Absolutely. And I think that, I mean, it comes back to like, How we, I think, how we like value it. And the, the one thing I always questioned, like I kind of gave that sigh there, um, is why do people do it? So I'll give an example. Before I even got in this industry, um, my dog at the time, his name was Dirt Dog and great dog, but bad dog at the same time. And so, I would find remote areas and I, I really didn't even know. I was just ignorant. And they say ignorance of the law is no excuse, but I was ignorant. I would find open fields, no one's around late at night or whatever, and, and we would go and just romp around. He would play fetch or whatever it was. And I mean, he was a good dog, but at the same time, it's like, that's still irresponsible cuz it's not, um, not, you know, it's just not the right way to go about it. You know, like find a dog, park, or run, or bike, et cetera.

and along those lines, I mean, I personally, I have had a shepherd and a dane mutt and a dane, and where I live, I could not have a fence. Okay? And I do not believe in shocking my dogs, right? So I will never put an electric collar on my dogs. So my dogs, I taught 'em kind of what the, what the yard was. But whenever they were outside, we were outside with them so that we could, we could kind of monitor it. So, In, in essence. I mean, it is, it's not the same as having them outside on a leash. Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. And, you know, I, I think it's important that we just, um, Well for us, especially like animal control, that field is doing that education, really getting in the community, letting them know that there are leash laws. Some communities, it's, it's cool, like you'll drive through the community and you'll see a street sign that says like, well, not a street sign, but like the, you know, the, the like rectangle ones that are like pretty big. It'll say like, Animals must be on leash, not just the ones you see at the school, but like they'll have, like, you must license your pet. Mm-hmm. That type of stuff. So I think it's, um, I think it's good that we educate and get out there and, and, and try to teach that in the community. You know, you have people that are just so ignorant. Um, I think it's the right way to say it, where they just don't care. They're just like, you know what? You can write me a, a ticket. Uh, I want to exercise my dog where I want to exercise my dog.

Well, and I mean, dogs are, you know, there's a lot of ways kind of like kids that you can tell 'em however many times you wanna tell 'em, and they're just not going to to understand, especially in the heat of the moment, right? Squirrel, uh, gone. So you can't, it doesn't matter how many voice commands your dog knows. Uh, many dogs, if they are already in, in progress of pursuing something, they're not gonna stop and, and listen to you.

Yeah, absolutely. So, all right. I did some research while we were talking. That's what we call multitasking, and it's called rule 15 .0. 1, 31 15 through or dash zero nine, hunting and trapping regulations for fur bearing animals. So that's an interesting title. And then if you go to section seven, it reads foothold traps. It was a foothold trap, right? Yes. Yep. Yeah. It shall be unlawful for any person to set, use or maintain a foothold trap on land for the purpose of taking a wild animal that has an inside diameter jaw spread greater than five and three eighth inches, except foothold traps with a jaw spread. Not larger than six inches may be utilized when they meet the following. The jaws have a minimum of five to six inch gripping surface. Each trap has a minimum of, of three swivel points. It's interesting that they have the yeah width of the actual foothold trap. It shall be unlawful for any person to set, use or maintain a foothold trap. Submerged in the water. For the purpose of taking a wild animal that has an inside diameter jaw spread greater than eight and one quarter of an inch, it shall be unlawful for any person to set use, maintain any foothold trap on land or water for the purpose of taking a wild animal that is not covered. It shall be unlawful for any person to set use. Maintain a foot encapsulating trap that has an opening that is greater than two inches in diameter or two inches along. Any one side, and it shall be unlawful to set a foothold or foot encapsulating trap on land that has less than two swiveling points. So there's the law, state law. Now, there could be in your town, there could be a local ordinance too. That may also be more, uh, I would say more restrictive than that state law. Strict. Yep. Right. Mm-hmm. Yep. Absolutely.

Well, that was the first question that I asked was if they had a picture of the trap, if they knew what exactly the trap was and they did not.

So, yeah. I mean, that's important they can get. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hopefully they can. I mean, at the end of the day, here's the thing, and, and I've really, Dr. G I really kind of changed my approach in this profession over the last, you know, 10 years, 13 years I've been doing it is like, There are times I definitely wanna make sure we hold people accountable, right? Like that is no doubt a goal of mine, but if we help the animal, I'm okay with that. Like if that's mm-hmm. If that's the way that it has to go down, I'm okay with that. I'm, I'm happy to just know that Okay, it might not have worked out and we might not have gotten the, the suspect. But at the end of the day, did we help the animal? And you know, I've spent countless hours on trying to find suspects and it, it's tough. It really wears on you. And so, I mean, for me, just, um, you know, being able to, uh, being able to help an that animal is, is probably the, the i the most, uh, I would say like motivating factor. If we can get the bad guy even better, but let's get puppy or kitty or whatever animal it is and um, get it into a better situation. Yeah. And that

was the kind of good, good thing that came about is that, you know, these, these individuals could not afford to have surgery on the dog. Uh, but thankfully they were able to reach out to a group that works with us. that group, contacted us, and then we were able to do the surgery, uh, and it was covered by donations. So at the end of the day, the dog is doing really well. I mean, it's three legged now. But it's, it's alive. I love,

I love, I love three, three legged dogs. I think they're so cute. I really do. Yeah.

No, but you know, she's alive and she is hopefully, you know, they've learned better than to, to let her roam because clearly she is, she likes to explore and she's going to go out roaming. Uh, and then, yeah, if we can educate, even if we can educate the neighbor into why he should not have those things, and that would be a win as well.

Absolutely.

Yeah. So, um, I was looking because one of the things that, that sparked this on for me was that one of my friends shared on social media about, uh, a man that shot a dog, an elderly dog. I believe the dog was 12 years old and the dog belonged to an autistic child, and this was in Indianapolis. This just happened a week ago. And there was, uh, a lot of concern because the dog was outside of the house in the front yard with the child, and the child was just playing. Um, and then this man was walking by on the sidewalk. And he alleges that the dog came at him and he felt threatened. So he shot the dog. Mm-hmm. And he killed the dog. Um, and so they found that he was not gonna have, there were not gonna be any charges against him because they actually, the owners of the dog were at fault because the dog was off leash. Um, so, you know, uh, it, it's a very heated thing on social media because everybody is finding fault on the man that shot the dog. Um, but the, the law said that the family of the dog actually was the one at fault.

And as I look over the case, there's no charges. Um mm-hmm. And I think it's, it's an unfortunate scenario, right. Um, Everything you see, the dog looks like a, a good dog. And here's the thing is like people are afraid of dogs. I think we in our profession forget that at times. And I talk about this a lot when I, you know, teach classes on, um, this exact thing, shooting dogs, police officer, shooting dogs, et cetera. And I think like, We don't know the history of people. They may have been attacked by a dog they may have grew up in, uh, in an area where dogs were aggressive. And, you know, I, I'm watching the dog approach, the guy now with, you know, the body language is loose tails, wagon. It's not high. Um, and so does he know that? Does the party know the, the shooter know how to read and understand body language? Do I agree and think that we should shoot a dog? I don't. I'll tell you what, and cops and, and I have this conversation with cops all the time because they're trained differently. Um, I've, you know, I've handled thousands of dogs in my career, and I've never been in a situation where I was like, whew, I wish I had a gun. Right? Like, it's never, it's never come up, and I cannot say that as. Everyone's truth because I'm sure there have been situations for animal control officers where they're like, man, I really wish I had a firearm in this scenario, and so maybe I just haven't been in that scenario, so I'm not discrediting that feeling. What I will say though is the majority of aggression can be, I'm, I don't even use catch poles that often anymore. Right. Uh, because you learn. Certain ways that you can really interact with these dogs to keep yourself safe and keep the community safe. And so at the end of the day, like this was an unfortunate situation that could have been avoided by the dog just being on a leash. Um, or maybe we educate. Our community a little bit better or, or like, do we really, like, this country likes its gun? So I'm just saying like, there's that too. Um, so like, does he need to walk around the neighborhood with a gun and was he, you know, was he looking to use it or did he really feel threatened? So,

yeah. And, and yeah. To, to your point, it's like you, a lot of people don't know how to read dogs. I mean, even in, in. Animal settings. There are people that don't know really how to read dogs. That's why some people get bit by a dog that they're not aware that the dog is being aggressive or. You know, it's, the ears are down or whatever it, maybe it's wagging its tail, but it's just showing you signs that it's scared. Mm-hmm. And it still may, may attack, the dog may have been barking just as a way of saying hello and this person is not able to read it. And as the dog is approaching him and barking, the guy is feeling that the dog dog's being aggressive. And, and where do you draw that line up? Like, I think that this dog is going to injure me. Uh, not that, not that somebody should shoot a dog, but, but same thing, like I don't see a reason why I would ever want need to shoot a dog, but where is that person's state of mind thinking? This dog, if I don't act immediately, I may not have the, the opportunity to act

and my dog's that, that way in some aspects, like, he'll, he'll walk up to people barking, but it's like the, Hey, pet me or You got food. Like, he's not, truthfully, he's not aggressive. I've never seen my dog act. Aggressive towards anyone. Um, and so it's just an interesting thing. It doesn't mean that that person doesn't feel threatened. And so it's my responsibility to either make sure I'm present and yelling, like, Hey, he's okay. Here I come, like, don't shoot him. Um, but in the end, probably best to have him on a, on a leash truthfully.

I was looking at another case that happened in Chicago, and this was back in I believe, February. Um, Yeah. February 8th, and it was a lady that was walking her two dogs off leash and she got into a verbal argument with a man and then the man walked away from her and went into an alley and the dogs followed him into that alley. And the, uh, the man shot the dogs. One of the dogs died and then the other dog was, was taken to a hospital and I believe that that other dog survived. But you know, the complaint again was he shot my dogs for no reason. Well, You're walking your dogs off leash. Your dogs are, especially anybody that has dogs, and whether they're big dogs or little dogs, if you get into, if you get upset, your dogs sense that and they're going to, to know that, that you're upset. So if you're having an argument with somebody, uh, Um, even if you're not really arguing or fighting, if you are just worked up, your dogs are not gonna understand what's happening, uh, which is maybe what happened in this case. And then the man walks away and then the dogs are kind of like protecting the owner. Mm-hmm. And these animals got shot because somebody didn't have them on a leash.

There's a, a case study that I use quite often in the trainings that I do, and it was a, a case out of Arlington, Texas, and, and you may be familiar with it, you may, may not. Some of our listeners may be, and it was in August of 2019, officer Ravinder Singh for the Arlington Police Department was responding to. A woman that was passed out in this like grassy area kind of behind, oh, it's not like an alley, but it's like a walkway. You can see it's kinda like a, there's like a wooden six foot fence on your left hand side, and then there's a sidewalk and then kind of some grass on the right hand side. And you hear him kind of walk up like, ma'am, ma'am, you okay? And two seconds, three seconds later, the dog starts barking. That was with the woman. And, um, Starts charging him. And he is like, ma'am, get your dog. Get your dog. And the dog ke you know, he has what I like to call reactionary gap. So he has a good 15, 20 seconds to make a decision. Uh, his decision was to open fire. He does that. He misses the dog, it ricochets and kills Margarita Brooks hits her. The, the bullet hits her in the chest and she dies, uh, right there. And so, um, it, it, it is just a classic. Example of why a gun wasn't necessary in that situation, right? Like to me, most situations, especially involving dogs, Do not need a firearm. Now, people may disagree and that's fine. Um, you're entitled to your opinion. I'll just say this, that like, based on my training and experience, there has not been, and I don't know if I'll ever be in a situation where I feel like I need to shoot a dog. I'm not saying I haven't researched and found justified shootings. I will say the majority of them. Are not justified, the majority of them are poor decisions made based off of, uh, emotion in that situation, thinking that that person was gonna get injured or, or whatever it may be. Look, most bites in general are our lower level bites, and I don't know if you've ever talked about the Doctor Ian Dunbar Bite scale on your podcast, but. Um, we've had 'em on ours, so you can go back and check that out. But I will say like, um, the bite scale goes one through six, right? One being no real, uh, wound at all, and six being death. The majority of bites that are recorded and, you know, treated in this is on document through the CDC is a level three. It's a, it's really a minor bite. Like it's not, it's not something that's gonna, like, you're not gonna die from a dog bite unless like, Unless maybe you're, you know, somebody that's dealing with like an autoimmune issue or you have like an infection, is, is my point, like the likelihood and no, there's about 30 to 40 deaths by dogs to humans in this country per year. It's pretty rare. So, um, I just think that cops could use different methods, uh, when dealing with, uh, a dog.

I know that there's a lot of, uh, officers, and I believe that you mentioned that you have done that, like in teaching police officers how to react when they, when they approach the situation when there are dogs. I. Because I, I had a situation when, well, not personally, but a friend of mine, her dog was killed by a police officer because some, they just opened the door. The dog came out, dog, very friendly, but very large Rottweiler. Mm-hmm. And he approached the police officers probably looking for somebody to pet him. And they were concerned. They didn't know any better, and their first instinct was to shoot and kill this dog. Yeah. Um, so, so important for police officers to, to learn how to, how to approach the situations so that the first thing that they don't that comes to mind is not Get your gun. And I'll shoot the dog.

And I, I would imagine no cop wants to shoot a dog like a, well, I say that and I, I laugh a little bit. There's a case, I gotta remember this case. So as I try to recall it, um, basically there was a panic alarm. Going off and inside the house. So this person had, you know, a home security system and it kept going off. Um, I wanna say it was in Texas somewhere. And the police go, like anytime, uh, they go and they want to do a welfare check to make sure like, someone's not breaking in the house or this, um, you know, this. Um, there's no other crimes going on. And so he walks up to the gate, the cop gets out of his vehicle if there's like a 40 minute video of the body cam footage, uh, and you can, and this is where I'm going to, but before I'll get, before I get there, let me kinda lay it out. Um, so he, he pulls, the cop pulls up to the scene. There's a, you know, chain link fence outside and. Um, he opens the gate and between the gate and the front door of the, the home, there's probably a good 50 feet, maybe, maybe even a little longer, like it was a long walk, and the cop never, like whistles for a dog or does anything like that. He basically starts walking to the home as he gets closer to the home. Um, he walks up onto this little wooden porch, and then the dog is like, slow trotting Dr. G he's not like running aggressive and he is like, oh, woo woo. Right? He's not like, there's just no aggression behind it. And he's like, oh, don't be mean doggy. Don't be vicious. Don't be vicious. So he like knocked this, he already knocked on the door and he's now saying it to the guy, oh, doggy, don't do it. Don't do it. Doggy. Stop it. And then he just shoots it like from at least 10 feet away. And the owner then opens the door, like, uh, the, what did they say? The he, the O the guy opens the door and the cops are like, Did you hit the panic alarm? And he is like, yeah. He's like, I called you guys to cancel or whatever. And he's like, did you just shoot my dog? And the dog is laying there in agony for minutes, like a long time. And then I, my point of that, when I said that a minute ago where I'm like, um, I. Cops don't wanna shoot dogs. Well, in this body camera footage of like 45 minutes, he gets on the, on the air and he is like talking to the detective, or he's on his cell phone talking to the detective who has to come out and handle it because, it, uh, was a fire, you know, a firearm situation. And he's like, yeah, I got another one. Like, he, it's like he was proud of the fact that he shot a dog. So, uh, it is just not, not the way that. Our law enforcement should be seen by the community and just how they shouldn't be acting that way, period. So it's, I'm, I'm sure the majority of police officers don't actually want to shoot a dog.

I would hope not, especially since canines are so helpful to police departments, right. Whether they're drug dogs or bomb dogs. So you would think that they would see the, the, the intelligence that they have and just, uh, you know that they are beings that they're., the importance of them in, in general. Um, I, couple of years ago I was at a lecture by Melinda, Merck, and she was mm-hmm. Discussing a case of, uh, police shooting and on a dog and two dogs. And the officer had said that the dogs had charged him and that's why he shot the dogs. And it was a very interesting forensic case because it was basically trying to determine if the story of the police officer was correct. Sure. And it was determined that the dogs were actually running away from the officer when he was shot, when the dog was shot. And there was concern about not just the fact that the dogs were shot. Running away, but the dogs run away, come back to the house and are kind of circling around and they lay down and die in front of the house. Oh, wow. Like they bleed to death because not only the fact that they shot the dogs, but then they didn't, uh, offer them any, any assistance, any aid. Um Oh, so,

yeah. Yeah. It's not surprising in, in some aspects. I mean, animals are still seen as, Whether they're working or they're not necessarily part of the family in, in some people's perspective as they may be in others. Right. So I think, I think that's kind of a big, um, barrier that we have to continue to grow and, and maybe overcome.

in some, in some situations, again, you know, tho those are situations where the owner, there's nothing that they could have done. Their dog was in their yard, in their facility, in their house, and then somebody came in and somebody else was at fault. But yeah, the, they were all, you know, all these other cases, it just comes to the, the animal depends on the owner to protect them and part of that protection is protecting them from dangers. Sure. Um, And you know, that's kind of where these, these leash laws, even though to some people that may feel that they're keeping their dogs from being dogs, it's actually keeping their dogs alive.

And I think that's really the, the main thing there is like, what can we do to make sure that we keep our animals safe and alive and like just wanting to have. Freedom or feel liberated. I love using that term. I'm so liberated because my dog comes back to me. I'm sorry, I shouldn't talk like that. Like that's, truthfully, that's how like, I, I think people feel, they're just like, right. They're just, they just feel in a way that like, well, it's just, you know, we as humans, we, um, paint them from wolves. So like we have the ability to. I don't know, like let 'em off leash and then they come back to us. Uh, it's just an interesting concept why people would, would wanna do that, but to each their own, I just want to do what's best. Um, at the end of the day for my. My guy who's over there laid out on my bed like it's his and no, I won't have any room. So there's that

because, because it is his and he just lets you kinda crash there every now and then. Yeah,

that's so true. So flipping

true. No, that's, that's, that's even the, the issue that I have with, for instance, like invisible fences. Like I understand the. why people go towards them. Mm-hmm. Because they want their dogs to be able to roam their yard, but mm-hmm. I have treated so many dogs that have jumped the fence and had gotten hit by cars. Mm-hmm. Or have gotten into fights. And the other problem is that invisible fences, for instance, don't keep other dogs from coming into your yard. Exactly. So, you know, so your dog is okay. Your, your dog respects the fence and it's staying in your yard. Well, it doesn't keep. Another dog from coming in and beating the crap outta your dog and then running away. So there's just something to be said about just not leaving your dogs unattended just because of lack of time. Laziness. I just don't wanna be bothered by it. Like, you know, we get a, we get an animal, we are getting a responsibility, and it's our responsibility to take care of them. Just like we wouldn't just send our kid out to the, to the yard, or, you know, when they're young and unable to take care of themselves.

Totally. A friend of mine, uh, who's been in this industry for a very long time, he had a case, it's a few years ago, it's not even that long ago. He had a case in the, basically the complaint was the, it was a leash law violation, and he ended up writing a ticket and the defendant argued it and took it all away into court. And they were like, well, my dog was on its own property, or, you know, And it had the electric fence, but it, it either the battery either died or the dog just decided to run through it and was then running the neighborhood right at that point. And so the complainant tried to argue, well, but my dog was contained in the yard. And, and so he, he ended up writing the ticket and then the um, The, they went to court and the, the ticket's stuck. So, um, it just goes to show that like even our justice system's like, nah, they're not that reliable in that aspect. Like if you want your dog to roam the yard, just put a fence up.

So what are the kind of things that can happen for people for violating leash laws?

Well, it's gonna depend per. Per, per county, per city, right. Uh, for the most part. Uh, you'll have a, I think most officers like to do warnings first. They, they like to just say, Hey, here's the leash law. Your dog can't be off leash. You can't be running, letting it run the neighborhood. And I also think officers have probably different views like, Throwing a tennis ball to a dog in an open field leash, law violation versus a dog cruising a neighborhood are kind of two different things, right? And so writing a ticket probably can range anywhere from like $25 to probably $200 depending on where you are. In the country, I would imagine certain cities have higher, higher fines than others. So typically it's just a fine that you like, kind of like a speeding ticket where you have to pay a fine and what, what you, what you typically see is these fines can then escalate. Uh, so then if you get a second violation within like, let's say 12 months, that fine may go up from whether it was, let's say it was $25 and now it goes up to 50, and then the third violation may be a hundred dollars. Before sending them to court for a, a summons. Now some animal control agencies may only have summons, so then you may have to go in front of a magistrate or a judge on your first violation, which in theory is a misdemeanor, uh, which to me is just a little harsh for a lease law violation, especially if all the dog did was just like run around. Um, but it's, you know, it's. It's different everywhere we go. Uh, the consistency in our profession is not. Um, and so I, I think it's just kind of all over the place in, in some aspects.

What are the kind of issues that people can have if their off leash dog runs out of the house or anything like that and it injures another animal, or it injures a person?

Yeah. And so that you're gonna look at more so of like, what, there's a couple different ways to look at it. It could be considered like a potentially dangerous animal, um, which, you know, typically comes with some sort of court ordered, court ordered like responsibility. So you might have to walk your dog on a leash. No greater than six feet has to wear a muzzle when in the yard. It has to be inside of an enclosure. And separated by two fences. So the enclosure then has to be in an fenced yard, if that makes sense. Right. So they have to have like two fences. Um, so that could be one of it. There, there could be, you know, civil liability too, that someone could get sued for any damages caused by the dog. Uh, if the dog causes, causes property damage to, it's not something we mentioned. Uh, we've had situations where officers have. Ticketed people for a dog causing damage to a vehicle after it's been hit and killed. Um, because they are, you know, trying to, I guess, do the right thing and get restitution for the person driving the car. Um, it seems a little harsh, but at the end of the day, like it might be the right thing to do if, you know, there's no other way to get restitution for the damages. Um, and then sometimes, I mean, the animals can be taken away and put on, you know, court holds, uh, until the case is, is. It was final. And I will say that like, you know, most of those dangerous dog cases happened because that dog was at large and got out and killed another dog or a cat or a chicken, or injured a person that was jogging by something like that. So, um, it's really common unfortunately, that things like that happen and they're avoidable for the most part. Accidents do happen, but they are avoidable.

And rare as it may be, like what does it take for like, The court sy or the system to decide that an animal needs to be destroyed because it's. You know, it got loose and it's a danger to society.

Yeah. And, and I would, I guess we'll just kind of preface, destroyed is very commonly used in ordinances, which equals euthanasia. Um, it just kind of shows, um, the terminology that we used for a long time in, in writings, you know, our statutes and city ordinances, but, uh, to euthanasia, you know, it depends, uh, some. Some districts or jurisdictions don't allow dangerous animals in their communities. And so if the dog is deemed dangerous and that person can't place it in like another area, it may be, you know, the only outcome there is the cer it, you know, it may be a, I hate to use the word awarded, um, to the city or the county, but it may be like, You know, the, Hmm. The property then may be handed over to the county and then they can make the ultimate decision to, to euthanize. And, and I will say the caveat for me is like, uh, though, you know, there's a movement of trying to be no kill by 2025. And I'm not trying to like, um, throw shade as the cool kids say, but you know, Is 10% of the dogs in the United States are there Less than 10% of aggressive dogs in the United States would be my question. And if the answer is no, then that number is is obviously not right. And so I don't want to kill anything. And I joke around even though I'm serious. It's like I'm vegan, so I don't even kill animals for food. Um, and so why would I want to euthanize a dog? But at the end of the day, I think our public safety is utmost first. You know, the most important thing. And so if that means a dog has to be put, put down to make our streets and our community safer, then that's what needs to happen. And so, um, it can be, you know, it can be something like a dog kills another animal that can, that can be a euthanasia candidate. It could be a, a serious bite. Anything like above a four, a four or above, I should say, where, you know, it really causes a significant body injury. Um, that's, that's something we really have to think about. And not that I'm saying like it's an automatic and every dog that does X, y, or Z should be euthanized. But I think we should really look at 'em on a case by case scenario and say like, okay, like this happened. Here was the circumstances and our community would probably be safer if we put this animal down.

Yeah, I think that, you know, it, I, I understand that there are triggers that can make a dog act aggressively, but then how can you completely eliminate said triggers in, in some situations, right? So you can have

them live on a, in a sanctuary and like some remote area where no one else is around,

right in, in the, in the place that doesn't exist. Yeah, that place and then just live there, like a, and, and to a point live there like a prisoner, realistically

for, well, we talk. So my daughter, who's 11, did a, and shout out Lily, and she'll probably never hear this, but shout out Lily. That's what we do. Um, you better listen. Lily. Yeah. Lily. Yeah. I love you, Lily. Okay. Back to the, back to the podcast. But, um, she was, she did a project on zoos this year in fifth grade. And, Um, she was, she was, she just came up with it on her own, like that kid's not vegan. I'm vegan. And, um, she came up with a term, and it's called zoo. You probably know this term, Dr. G. It's um, when, when zoo animals go crazy. It's called zoo philia, I think. No, that's, that's something else. Nope. No, we're not talking about that right now. That's all.

Yeah, that's another episode.

I'm sorry. Uh, uh for those that know. No, that was, um, there's a term for it. It's like, uh, zoocosis, thank you, Google. It's called zoocosis. And so the whole thought process behind zoocosis is these, these animals are taken out of their natural habitats and then they live in these areas that they can't. Exhibit normal behaviors, right? So they, they create these patterns of it's craziness, whether they spin in circles or they gnaw at their skin, or they, you know, they, they run back and forth or they, um, they're just neurotic in some aspects. And I think we have that in some aspects in our shelter animals, uh, because that is not a natural setting for them, and we don't have the time and space. And so back to your point, like, is it fair to that animal to live in that setting? For the rest of its life, or do we just, you know, make the decision, which ultimately costs the shelter less money, um, to, to, you know, to euthanize it. And, uh, I don't know if we, we have time to talk about death, but that's a whole nother conversation. And, uh, I think we humanize a lot of things when we make decisions. That's just my personal opinion. Now,

can dogs come off a dangerous list?

Not necessarily a, well, again, it's all gonna be, uh, subject to where you are. So every ordinance is gonna be different, right? Every state's statute is gonna be different. I will say in. Where I used to work in Denver specifically, I can talk to them. Um, and even, uh, some other places that like once it's dangerous, it's dangerous. Now if it's potentially dangerous, that may be different in an animal without having further violations within, let's say an 18 or a 36 month period can then be removed from the potentially dangerous list. But I've never. To my knowledge, I've never heard of a dog being able to be removed from a dangerous, but I, I would imagine based on how varied our laws are throughout the country, that there's probably a, a city or a town that allows for, for that, for a dangerous status. I.

As I understand in Ohio, uh, once it's deemed dangerous, once it has a dangerous dog license, it cannot come off being a dangerous dog license. And it kind of makes sense because again, it's a matter of triggers, right? So it's a matter of de determining what made it be into that, uh, deemed dangerous. Sure. Um, but.

It's probably not the right analogy, but like a sexual predator's always gonna be a sexual predator. Right. They don't get to come off that list cuz they haven't done anything for five years. So, yeah,

no, it's about the circumstances or the situations. You know, it, it's not happening because, It's in the, in the right environment, which would be great for the dog, that it's in the right environment, that is not gonna trigger it to be aggressive. Mm-hmm. But then if something happens that changes it, you know, that that dog has the potential for, for being aggressive, for, for attacking. So absolutely. A lot of things that have to be taken into consideration before making decisions about placement and, um, rescuing and, and that kind of stuff.

All the things. I agree a hundred percent.

Well, cool. I mean, I think that this has been a really cool, uh, conversation as far as the importance of leash laws. I know that there's a lot of people that disagree with leash laws or that have these, uh, retractable leashes that the dog is walking, you know, three blocks away from them, and they think that, that it is okay, but understanding the, the safety and the importance and the reasoning behind it, and how can ultimately, literally save your dog's life is just gonna be the important thing.

I'll give this last example before you wrap up and I was, uh, just patrolling. It was a normal night. I got a call for a skittish dog that looked injured and I was able to, to get there, get the dog. It was like a great Pyrenneese mix. And she, uh, had some blood and was limping and I believe fractured, like front, front, right. Right. Um, what's this part called? I'm asking her through Zoom. Carpus, thank you. The, the carpus, that area. Um, and so it's glad, I'm glad you're a veterinarian. Cause I totally forgot that.

Was that a test I passed?

Um, and so I get the dog and I get her to the Emergency Vet Clinic and I. End up finding the owner through a microchip, thankfully. And the owner was, Hmm. You know, people are in shock. And that's something I have to remember. I'm pretty jaded, but I will say that the owner, um, was, was thankful and like sad that he lost the dog. And, and I asked him, I was like, bro, what happened? He was like, you know, we were just in the park and I was on my phone and I looked up and she was gone. Simple as that. And granted, she was found almost two miles away from that park, right? And so it just goes to show that simple moment of, you know, your dog, you think everything's good, then you're swiping right on Tinder, or you're on Instagram, or whatever the heck you kids do. TikTok, I don't know what y'all do anymore. And then you look up and your dog's gone. And now I got hit by a car. He was lucky it didn't die. And so I laid into him. I like to lay in PE into people in like a nice way of like, man, come on. You know, think bigger. Think bigger. Like this could have really been bad for you. Like your dog, like this could have gotten way worse. Now granted, she broke, uh, you know, her carpal, carpal carpus, carpus, I think carpal cuz car, carpal tunnel, carpal tunnel's. Like that same area. Yes. All right. So yes, it's exactly the same area. So, but my, my, um, my point is, uh, you know, it's just like, come on man. Do better, do better for your dog. And, uh, that's all you can do. I mean, I, I, uh, You know, I wanna to see people and their animals happy. So Yeah. And as

we were getting close to 4th of July, you know, definitely not a time to have your dog off leash because

Not at all it, no. Yeah, I almost lost my dog last year on 4th of July on a harness. He almost slipped out cuz he was so scared. So I get it. Yeah.

Yeah. So that, Getting close to 4th of July. Keep your dogs safe. Don't take 'em outside. Don't take 'em into places. I mean, it doesn't matter how, how chill you think they are. It, once you start hearing the, that sound, it's just, to me it's a wrap. Yeah. Fight or flight. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So thanks a lot for, for joining me and tell people how they can listen to your stuff, man.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me. And, uh, please join us at the Animal Control Report that's hosted by me and Ashley Bishop, a humane officer out of Missouri, Wisconsin. I always call Missouri and Wisconsin the same place, even though they're not. You can go to our website, keep it humane.com. You can use AC report for 10% off of any item in our store. So check that out. Again, that is keep it humane.com. AC report is your discount code and uh, we're on all the socials. So the animal control report, you can find us there please, like, share, follow, rate, all that good stuff.

And we have a link to you guys on the, on our website, on Forensics Vet, and also on our uh, Facebook page. So again, thank you for joining me. This has been great. People. Keep your dogs leash, keep your dogs safe, your dogs depend on you. And thanks for listening and thanks for caring.

Thank you.