1 00:00:00,375 --> 00:00:03,461 One of the things we got to really be careful about is ideologies 2 00:00:03,461 --> 00:00:06,464 or fads or agendas that 3 00:00:06,506 --> 00:00:10,385 leave us feeling like, oh, I know what your problem is, right? 4 00:00:11,011 --> 00:00:14,806 Your problem is you have a demon or your problem is idols of 5 00:00:14,806 --> 00:00:16,641 the heart of your problem is your childhood pain, 6 00:00:16,641 --> 00:00:18,977 or your problem is an undisciplined lifestyle. 7 00:00:18,977 --> 00:00:21,479 Any of those things potentially could be a factor. 8 00:00:21,479 --> 00:00:24,774 I'm not dismissing any of those categories, but I'm just saying 9 00:00:25,692 --> 00:00:28,695 let's be more curious about people's experience 10 00:00:28,695 --> 00:00:30,697 and not put people in boxes. 11 00:00:36,202 --> 00:00:38,955 All right, well, Michael, welcome back to the podcast. 12 00:00:38,955 --> 00:00:41,833 We had you on, I don't know, 4 or 5 years ago. 13 00:00:41,833 --> 00:00:44,836 So it's been a minute and I'm so glad it worked to do this again. 14 00:00:45,128 --> 00:00:48,131 You're a counselor, and you do different teaching 15 00:00:48,131 --> 00:00:50,341 and speaking in churches and things as well. 16 00:00:50,341 --> 00:00:54,012 And we're to talk about kind of a bleak topic, 17 00:00:54,012 --> 00:00:58,600 I guess, something that may be a bit multifaceted, and I'm sure 18 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,728 there's a lot of opinions, but I know you have some experience in this, 19 00:01:02,145 --> 00:01:03,813 in this world. Through your work. 20 00:01:03,813 --> 00:01:07,650 And, I think you'd have something to contribute for our audience. 21 00:01:07,650 --> 00:01:09,986 And that's the topic of addiction. 22 00:01:09,986 --> 00:01:11,529 So let's let's just jump 23 00:01:11,529 --> 00:01:13,156 right in and start with what are some of the fundamentals, 24 00:01:13,156 --> 00:01:17,827 what are some basics that we should keep in mind about addiction as a whole. 25 00:01:17,827 --> 00:01:21,623 And then if you want to narrow it in a bit from there, and we'll just take 26 00:01:21,623 --> 00:01:21,998 it from there. 27 00:01:23,291 --> 00:01:23,625 Yeah. 28 00:01:23,625 --> 00:01:28,088 So you could think of addiction as a bad habit on steroids if you want 29 00:01:29,172 --> 00:01:32,133 sort of a rough pop culture version. 30 00:01:33,510 --> 00:01:33,718 Yeah. 31 00:01:33,718 --> 00:01:36,971 An addiction is anything that a person does 32 00:01:36,971 --> 00:01:40,391 habitually that overpowers them or is hard to stop. 33 00:01:40,391 --> 00:01:42,769 That would be one way of thinking about it. 34 00:01:42,769 --> 00:01:45,063 I think we should think broadly about addiction. 35 00:01:45,063 --> 00:01:50,151 I think, you know, we tend to think of it as it's drugs or alcohol, but, 36 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:55,740 you know, you can be addicted to work, you can be addicted to gambling, 37 00:01:55,740 --> 00:01:58,743 you can be addicted to video games. 38 00:01:58,785 --> 00:02:01,204 I think some people are addicted to anger. 39 00:02:01,204 --> 00:02:04,624 You can be addicted to the news cycle. 40 00:02:06,126 --> 00:02:08,837 Really, anything that we turn to 41 00:02:08,837 --> 00:02:13,341 to distract from our emotional pain, our distress, 42 00:02:13,341 --> 00:02:18,388 and it becomes, more powerful than we are, takes over. 43 00:02:18,388 --> 00:02:20,014 The human will. 44 00:02:21,474 --> 00:02:23,351 So really, I think 45 00:02:23,351 --> 00:02:26,354 we're looking at something really broad. 46 00:02:27,397 --> 00:02:30,483 You're describing something that sounds almost like coping in a way, 47 00:02:30,525 --> 00:02:33,528 using it to cope with something very much so, yeah. 48 00:02:33,736 --> 00:02:36,156 Do you want to narrow this in a bit? 49 00:02:36,156 --> 00:02:37,282 Addiction. 50 00:02:37,282 --> 00:02:40,076 This is like a whole family of of things, of issues. 51 00:02:40,076 --> 00:02:42,453 But, yeah. Do you want to get a bit more specific? 52 00:02:42,453 --> 00:02:45,623 So what I work with primarily is pornography addiction. 53 00:02:46,583 --> 00:02:49,794 Which sadly is an epidemic 54 00:02:50,628 --> 00:02:53,631 in our circles as well as elsewhere. 55 00:02:53,882 --> 00:02:54,632 yeah. 56 00:02:54,632 --> 00:02:57,802 So this is, this is a, this is a challenge here 57 00:02:57,927 --> 00:03:00,930 for sure with within our world. 58 00:03:01,097 --> 00:03:03,266 That I think that's pretty obvious. 59 00:03:03,266 --> 00:03:05,810 Let's start with some of the roots. 60 00:03:05,810 --> 00:03:07,562 What would you say are causes. 61 00:03:07,562 --> 00:03:10,773 What have you seen in your experience working with this. 62 00:03:11,316 --> 00:03:12,275 And so forth. 63 00:03:12,275 --> 00:03:15,695 so first of all I love the way you phrase that use the word roots. 64 00:03:16,237 --> 00:03:19,782 Because so often when people talk about these things really 65 00:03:19,991 --> 00:03:24,204 any kind of emotional struggle we often talk about the root cause. 66 00:03:24,412 --> 00:03:25,705 I, I've heard this often. 67 00:03:25,705 --> 00:03:27,999 What is the root cause. 68 00:03:27,999 --> 00:03:29,626 We need to find the root cause. 69 00:03:29,626 --> 00:03:34,589 And I think roots plural is a much better way to think about it. 70 00:03:35,256 --> 00:03:39,385 So a big word that I learned in college, multi causality. 71 00:03:39,385 --> 00:03:42,639 I don't know if that's a word most people use or not, but 72 00:03:42,639 --> 00:03:45,808 I think that's really a good word for multiple causes. 73 00:03:45,808 --> 00:03:49,812 And I think that's much more accurate, much more helpful. 74 00:03:50,855 --> 00:03:53,858 So what are some of the roots. 75 00:03:55,985 --> 00:03:56,486 I think 76 00:03:56,486 --> 00:03:59,489 one of the biggest ones, if there's a taproot, 77 00:03:59,656 --> 00:04:02,784 it's quite possibly emotional distress 78 00:04:03,618 --> 00:04:07,497 that a person has not learned to deal with in a healthy way. 79 00:04:08,289 --> 00:04:11,292 The absence of healthy coping skills, you know, 80 00:04:12,126 --> 00:04:16,464 so a very common story is a child, a young person 81 00:04:16,464 --> 00:04:20,009 who grows up in a dysfunctional family 82 00:04:20,009 --> 00:04:23,012 or has been subjected to trauma 83 00:04:23,012 --> 00:04:26,099 or for some reason had chronic anxiety, 84 00:04:27,183 --> 00:04:31,187 whatever it might be, and didn't have healthy ways to deal with that. 85 00:04:31,437 --> 00:04:35,692 And early on is exposed to, for example, pornography 86 00:04:36,484 --> 00:04:40,530 and turns to that to escape, to medicate, etc.. 87 00:04:41,656 --> 00:04:43,616 Now that's not the only cause. 88 00:04:43,616 --> 00:04:45,201 And that isn't always the story. 89 00:04:45,201 --> 00:04:48,079 Everybody's story is different, but that's a very common story. 90 00:04:50,039 --> 00:04:51,374 and that 91 00:04:51,374 --> 00:04:54,294 could happen for any number of types of addiction. 92 00:04:54,294 --> 00:04:56,462 I'm assuming totally yeah. 93 00:04:56,462 --> 00:04:59,590 I mean, so one of the things we noticed is the pattern is so often 94 00:04:59,590 --> 00:05:02,593 the same, whether it's sexual addiction, alcohol addiction, 95 00:05:02,969 --> 00:05:07,307 there are obviously things about each type of addiction that are unique. 96 00:05:08,141 --> 00:05:11,644 But yeah, same pattern very often. 97 00:05:12,478 --> 00:05:15,481 So when we think about addiction 98 00:05:15,565 --> 00:05:18,776 oftentimes it's really easy to, 99 00:05:19,277 --> 00:05:22,113 oh we hear someone struggling with that or is addicted to this. 100 00:05:22,113 --> 00:05:22,864 Whatever. 101 00:05:22,864 --> 00:05:25,491 And we can say oh why don't they just stop. 102 00:05:25,491 --> 00:05:29,954 I mean you know it's like come on to get it together etc., etc.. 103 00:05:29,954 --> 00:05:32,957 Any number of phrases that are used against people that are, 104 00:05:33,416 --> 00:05:38,004 yeah, whatever the case may be, what's some of the issues with that attitude 105 00:05:38,004 --> 00:05:42,383 and maybe what are some better ways of engaging with the situation. 106 00:05:43,634 --> 00:05:46,637 Yeah. So. 107 00:05:47,430 --> 00:05:50,308 I think that's a great opportunity 108 00:05:50,308 --> 00:05:52,852 to introspect, 109 00:05:52,852 --> 00:05:55,855 to think about one's own relationship with God. 110 00:05:55,855 --> 00:05:58,316 And and just to ask the question 111 00:05:58,316 --> 00:06:02,528 now, am I really do I really have it so together myself? 112 00:06:02,528 --> 00:06:06,324 Am I really, is there nothing about myself 113 00:06:06,657 --> 00:06:09,452 that I wish was different? 114 00:06:09,452 --> 00:06:12,538 And whatever that thing is thing X in my life. 115 00:06:12,538 --> 00:06:15,625 So maybe thing X isn’t alcohol or pornography, but 116 00:06:16,501 --> 00:06:20,505 whatever my growth area is, why don't I just change, right? 117 00:06:20,755 --> 00:06:23,424 So I think that could be a good place to start. 118 00:06:23,424 --> 00:06:25,927 Is just personal reflection. Ouch! 119 00:06:25,927 --> 00:06:30,932 The other thing is, I mean, so to reflect biblically. 120 00:06:30,932 --> 00:06:33,935 Romans chapter seven. 121 00:06:34,268 --> 00:06:35,728 I do the things that I hate. 122 00:06:35,728 --> 00:06:38,064 I don't do the things that I want to do. 123 00:06:38,064 --> 00:06:40,817 I know the law of God. Right? 124 00:06:40,817 --> 00:06:44,987 So often we think that mere agreement, mere notional assent, 125 00:06:44,987 --> 00:06:48,908 if you know what to do, there's sort of this humanistic idea 126 00:06:48,908 --> 00:06:51,411 that that if people were just educated better. 127 00:06:51,411 --> 00:06:52,453 Right. 128 00:06:52,453 --> 00:06:55,456 If we would just if you would just knew the facts. 129 00:06:55,998 --> 00:06:59,460 And I think history shows that, you know, that's not how it works. 130 00:06:59,919 --> 00:07:02,088 You know, by the law is the knowledge of sin. 131 00:07:02,088 --> 00:07:06,217 We have that experiment we were given, you know, God amply 132 00:07:06,217 --> 00:07:10,221 demonstrate that that human nature is, is more flawed than that. 133 00:07:12,390 --> 00:07:12,849 But, yeah, 134 00:07:12,849 --> 00:07:15,852 anyone who struggles to understand, 135 00:07:15,935 --> 00:07:19,981 to appreciate how difficult this can be really 136 00:07:19,981 --> 00:07:23,234 should just read Romans chapter seven until they have it memorized. 137 00:07:23,860 --> 00:07:26,612 And then, of course, let's read Romans chapter eight. 138 00:07:26,612 --> 00:07:27,613 Let's not stop reading. 139 00:07:27,613 --> 00:07:30,616 Let's, let's hear about the power of the spirit as well. 140 00:07:32,702 --> 00:07:35,788 But you know, to take it to another level. 141 00:07:36,998 --> 00:07:40,293 People can be overwhelmed by their desires, 142 00:07:40,293 --> 00:07:43,296 by habits, in their bodies, by 143 00:07:43,671 --> 00:07:48,050 nervous systems that have been habituated to addictive activities. 144 00:07:48,468 --> 00:07:52,972 And we don't have as much control over ourselves as we often think we do. 145 00:07:53,848 --> 00:07:56,517 And so someone who's been addicted, 146 00:07:56,517 --> 00:07:59,145 why don't they just change, well they're wading upstream? 147 00:07:59,145 --> 00:08:03,816 They have neural pathways, overwhelming desires. 148 00:08:04,025 --> 00:08:06,444 Withdrawal symptoms. 149 00:08:06,444 --> 00:08:09,238 I remember when I used to work in prison 150 00:08:09,238 --> 00:08:11,491 talking to a man who 151 00:08:11,491 --> 00:08:15,244 he was telling me how he overcame his addiction to some kind of drug. 152 00:08:15,244 --> 00:08:17,121 I forget what the drug was. 153 00:08:17,121 --> 00:08:21,000 And he said he went to his friend and said, I need to do detox. 154 00:08:21,542 --> 00:08:22,543 Can you put me up? 155 00:08:22,543 --> 00:08:24,337 His friend had a room for him. 156 00:08:24,337 --> 00:08:25,922 He stayed in the room. 157 00:08:25,922 --> 00:08:28,925 His friend locked the door at his request and he told him, now 158 00:08:29,175 --> 00:08:32,887 don't let me out of this room until I'm over it. 159 00:08:34,263 --> 00:08:37,308 And no matter what I say, don't let me out. 160 00:08:37,892 --> 00:08:41,521 It wasn't long before he was banging on the door and begging to let him out. 161 00:08:41,729 --> 00:08:43,022 Give me, give me some. 162 00:08:43,022 --> 00:08:47,109 You know, he wanted the drug and cussing at his friend, you know. 163 00:08:47,109 --> 00:08:50,071 But his friend was true to his word. He didn't let him out. And what? 164 00:08:50,071 --> 00:08:54,408 What this guy said was the hardest thing was the withdrawal 165 00:08:54,408 --> 00:08:57,411 symptoms, the intense physical pain 166 00:08:58,079 --> 00:09:00,998 that I experienced because my body was craving the drug. 167 00:09:00,998 --> 00:09:04,126 And so now obviously every addiction doesn't come with that. 168 00:09:04,126 --> 00:09:08,381 But but in many cases, there's incredible backlash 169 00:09:08,381 --> 00:09:12,718 that a person has to deal with from their symptoms, from their system. 170 00:09:12,718 --> 00:09:15,304 Right. 171 00:09:15,304 --> 00:09:16,889 Another thing you often hear is 172 00:09:16,889 --> 00:09:19,892 once a person starts saying no to the addiction, 173 00:09:20,184 --> 00:09:23,354 the craving, it just it comes back, it comes back, it comes back. 174 00:09:23,646 --> 00:09:27,316 And and there's this feeling that I'll never be able to get over this. 175 00:09:27,316 --> 00:09:30,778 I'll never be able to beat this because it just keeps coming back. 176 00:09:30,987 --> 00:09:31,821 Now that's not true. 177 00:09:31,821 --> 00:09:34,323 There is a way to get over it, and there is a way to beat it. 178 00:09:34,323 --> 00:09:37,702 But I just think we need to appreciate the strong headwinds 179 00:09:37,702 --> 00:09:41,539 that come against the person who tries to resist the addiction. 180 00:09:42,415 --> 00:09:44,584 you're describing things 181 00:09:44,584 --> 00:09:48,921 that sounds not just, oh just make a decision in your mind. 182 00:09:49,338 --> 00:09:52,925 You're talking biology like we are more than our minds. 183 00:09:53,092 --> 00:09:55,052 You know it's not like our 184 00:09:55,052 --> 00:09:57,722 our bodies are more than just a carrier to get our mind around it, 185 00:09:57,722 --> 00:09:59,223 you know, so to speak. Right. 186 00:10:00,391 --> 00:10:03,728 And but that's so easy to forget, I guess. 187 00:10:03,728 --> 00:10:06,731 Or maybe forget is the wrong word, but just 188 00:10:08,357 --> 00:10:10,359 you're describing things that are saying, 189 00:10:10,359 --> 00:10:13,362 you know, the body gets a say in this, too, right? 190 00:10:14,864 --> 00:10:16,616 Totally. Yes. 191 00:10:16,616 --> 00:10:20,119 I think that that many Christians need to discover that they have bodies. 192 00:10:22,955 --> 00:10:24,957 That's, 193 00:10:24,957 --> 00:10:28,461 that I think you I think you're a pretty profound turf right there. 194 00:10:28,502 --> 00:10:32,214 Actually, I think you really are onto something that maybe we've forgotten. 195 00:10:32,506 --> 00:10:34,884 We've become all ethereal, 196 00:10:34,884 --> 00:10:38,929 and it's just about our spirits floating around in you or something. 197 00:10:38,929 --> 00:10:39,680 You know what I mean? 198 00:10:39,680 --> 00:10:43,100 And forget that you have body and it has a say. 199 00:10:43,142 --> 00:10:44,185 I guess I don't. 200 00:10:44,185 --> 00:10:46,103 And again, you know, this is out of my wheelhouse. 201 00:10:46,103 --> 00:10:48,522 I maybe I'm speculating in the wrong territory, but, 202 00:10:49,523 --> 00:10:51,567 I yeah, 203 00:10:51,567 --> 00:10:55,488 I guess how do we keep that in mind? 204 00:10:55,655 --> 00:10:57,073 You know what I mean? 205 00:10:57,073 --> 00:11:00,076 Like, how do we remember this when dealing, 206 00:11:00,826 --> 00:11:04,789 you know, interacting with someone who is going through this process 207 00:11:04,789 --> 00:11:08,417 or has this addiction that maybe they want to break it and even, 208 00:11:08,668 --> 00:11:13,756 But it's helpful to hear their stories, hearing stories. 209 00:11:13,756 --> 00:11:16,050 I mean, like, the guy was just talking about. 210 00:11:16,050 --> 00:11:19,804 The more we know about addiction, the more we have personal connections 211 00:11:19,804 --> 00:11:22,807 with people who've experienced addiction. 212 00:11:24,016 --> 00:11:27,019 There are memoirs out there, you know, 213 00:11:27,812 --> 00:11:28,813 I think that helps a lot. 214 00:11:28,813 --> 00:11:29,897 It helps to make it vivid. 215 00:11:29,897 --> 00:11:33,234 It helps to make it, to bring it closer to home. 216 00:11:34,694 --> 00:11:37,697 And so right with that then how can we 217 00:11:38,197 --> 00:11:42,201 those watching listening to this, how can they be 218 00:11:42,201 --> 00:11:45,329 gracious and caring towards those people that they know that 219 00:11:46,497 --> 00:11:48,082 that may be struggling with 220 00:11:48,082 --> 00:11:51,335 addiction or, or maybe they're just someone they meet on the street. 221 00:11:51,335 --> 00:11:51,877 Whatever. 222 00:11:51,877 --> 00:11:54,797 How can we develop the natural response 223 00:11:54,797 --> 00:11:57,800 of being gracious and caring for those people? 224 00:11:58,884 --> 00:11:59,093 Yeah. 225 00:11:59,093 --> 00:12:02,304 I mean, I think, again, being educated on it, 226 00:12:07,184 --> 00:12:08,853 Finding out, 227 00:12:08,853 --> 00:12:11,313 you know, why addiction is so difficult 228 00:12:11,313 --> 00:12:14,316 and, and, 229 00:12:14,692 --> 00:12:17,695 the burdens that people carry, 230 00:12:18,612 --> 00:12:18,946 Yeah. 231 00:12:18,946 --> 00:12:22,032 You know, I mean, so, again, coming back to the question, 232 00:12:23,117 --> 00:12:25,995 why don't they just change, you know, 233 00:12:25,995 --> 00:12:30,124 the person who tries to do right and fails 234 00:12:30,124 --> 00:12:32,042 because many of these people do try, right? 235 00:12:32,042 --> 00:12:35,004 And I think that's something that we really need to keep in mind 236 00:12:35,004 --> 00:12:37,757 now, there are people who just accept their addiction. 237 00:12:37,757 --> 00:12:39,091 For sure. 238 00:12:39,091 --> 00:12:43,304 In my context as a counselor, I'm working with people who want to change, right? 239 00:12:43,304 --> 00:12:44,930 Otherwise they wouldn't be there. 240 00:12:44,930 --> 00:12:46,432 Or they they don't last. 241 00:12:46,432 --> 00:12:49,101 If they're the ones they don't want to change. 242 00:12:49,101 --> 00:12:50,394 So that's my context. 243 00:12:51,687 --> 00:12:53,147 These are people that it's 244 00:12:53,147 --> 00:12:57,443 like trying to run a marathon with 100 pounds on your back, right? 245 00:12:57,443 --> 00:13:00,446 These people are carrying a really heavy weight. 246 00:13:01,489 --> 00:13:04,492 And sometimes a person with an addiction 247 00:13:05,159 --> 00:13:08,662 makes far more effort to do right 248 00:13:09,205 --> 00:13:14,001 before they eventually fall than maybe you or I do. 249 00:13:14,001 --> 00:13:16,337 And how does God evaluate that? 250 00:13:16,337 --> 00:13:19,340 You know, who who is really living more righteously 251 00:13:19,340 --> 00:13:22,343 in God's eyes? 252 00:13:22,676 --> 00:13:23,886 I think those are helpful things 253 00:13:23,886 --> 00:13:26,889 to keep in mind 254 00:13:27,097 --> 00:13:28,933 so let's spin it around then. 255 00:13:28,933 --> 00:13:30,893 So we're just talking about 256 00:13:30,893 --> 00:13:34,730 how people could be more gracious and caring towards those they encounter. 257 00:13:34,730 --> 00:13:37,733 That you know, are suffering from addiction. 258 00:13:37,775 --> 00:13:38,901 Let's flip it around. 259 00:13:38,901 --> 00:13:42,738 What if there's someone listening to this or whoever it is that's listening 260 00:13:42,738 --> 00:13:46,492 to this, who is struggling with an addiction of some kind? 261 00:13:47,743 --> 00:13:50,538 What are some steps to recovery and healing. 262 00:13:50,538 --> 00:13:53,374 So it depends so much on, you know, what the addiction is 263 00:13:53,374 --> 00:13:56,377 and what, what level of addiction we're talking about. 264 00:13:56,919 --> 00:14:00,422 Groups are really helpful groups like Alcoholics Anonymous 265 00:14:00,422 --> 00:14:02,716 or Celebrate Recovery. 266 00:14:02,716 --> 00:14:07,930 There are specialized sexual addiction for any kind of addiction. 267 00:14:08,222 --> 00:14:10,432 There's a group out there somewhere. 268 00:14:10,432 --> 00:14:15,062 Now obviously you have to to weigh the merits of the individual group 269 00:14:15,062 --> 00:14:18,065 and and is it really Christian and all that? 270 00:14:18,190 --> 00:14:20,609 But support groups are really helpful. 271 00:14:20,609 --> 00:14:23,612 Accountability can be really helpful if it's done well. 272 00:14:25,114 --> 00:14:28,993 I think one of the biggest things is finding 273 00:14:28,993 --> 00:14:32,913 healthy ways to cope with whatever you're medicating. 274 00:14:34,415 --> 00:14:36,125 talk about that a bit more. Yeah. 275 00:14:36,125 --> 00:14:39,503 Because I think that's a we were going back to kind of the roots thing. 276 00:14:39,753 --> 00:14:39,962 Yeah. 277 00:14:39,962 --> 00:14:42,965 And that was a piece that definitely came up and so 278 00:14:43,215 --> 00:14:46,260 how can we have the self-awareness to identify that. 279 00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:49,680 That's actually, you know, that's a part of the puzzle perhaps. 280 00:14:49,805 --> 00:14:51,390 Yeah. I like to hear you speak more on that. 281 00:14:52,349 --> 00:14:52,892 yeah. 282 00:14:52,892 --> 00:14:53,559 Yeah. 283 00:14:53,559 --> 00:14:58,522 I think that people who struggle with addiction, some part of them. 284 00:14:58,522 --> 00:15:01,525 So it's unconscious or, or it's not, 285 00:15:02,735 --> 00:15:04,945 they know what's true notionally. 286 00:15:04,945 --> 00:15:09,658 But some part of the person really feels deep down 287 00:15:10,075 --> 00:15:13,078 that this is the only way to cope. 288 00:15:13,162 --> 00:15:13,954 Okay. 289 00:15:13,954 --> 00:15:16,165 Yeah. 290 00:15:16,165 --> 00:15:18,417 Now, I know, you know, that's not rational. 291 00:15:18,417 --> 00:15:20,920 But again, we aren't rational as human beings, right? 292 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,547 That's why we struggle as much as we do. 293 00:15:23,547 --> 00:15:24,798 That's why we don't get along. 294 00:15:24,798 --> 00:15:27,176 That's why so many things are the way they are, 295 00:15:27,176 --> 00:15:30,179 because we're not rational as human beings. 296 00:15:30,679 --> 00:15:33,641 And we have so many irrational processes 297 00:15:33,641 --> 00:15:36,644 at work inside of us many times, right. 298 00:15:37,102 --> 00:15:40,648 But there is some part of the person that really does feel 299 00:15:41,398 --> 00:15:44,485 sincerely that this is the only way to cope. 300 00:15:45,903 --> 00:15:47,613 So I think one of the things we're trying to do 301 00:15:47,613 --> 00:15:50,991 is we're trying to make the idea of healthy coping credible, 302 00:15:51,575 --> 00:15:54,119 and for that to happen, you need experience. 303 00:15:54,119 --> 00:15:55,955 So it helps to hear it. 304 00:15:55,955 --> 00:15:58,958 It helps to know it, but it really helps to experience it. 305 00:15:58,958 --> 00:16:03,170 So when you have the experience of, for example, being able to calm 306 00:16:03,170 --> 00:16:06,256 your anxiety without alcohol, 307 00:16:06,924 --> 00:16:09,927 without smoking, without whatever it is, 308 00:16:11,178 --> 00:16:13,764 the trick is the difficulty 309 00:16:13,764 --> 00:16:17,226 is healthy ways of coping take longer. 310 00:16:18,227 --> 00:16:21,981 You don't get the instant gratification right. 311 00:16:22,106 --> 00:16:24,483 You don't have those chemicals coursing through your veins. 312 00:16:24,483 --> 00:16:26,986 You don't have the right. It takes longer. 313 00:16:26,986 --> 00:16:28,529 It takes more persistence. 314 00:16:28,529 --> 00:16:32,783 It takes, you know, it's you're building a habit and that's one of the barriers. 315 00:16:32,783 --> 00:16:34,535 That's one of the things that makes it difficult. 316 00:16:36,078 --> 00:16:36,662 That that's 317 00:16:36,662 --> 00:16:40,040 a that's a significant one I think what you just said there. 318 00:16:40,457 --> 00:16:43,377 And then also you were saying how you say an addiction 319 00:16:43,377 --> 00:16:46,839 or not, not the proper way of coping. 320 00:16:47,297 --> 00:16:49,800 There's an instant chemical response. 321 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:50,592 Right. 322 00:16:50,592 --> 00:16:54,304 That's a, that's a real piece that I don't know 323 00:16:54,304 --> 00:16:55,264 that that much about it, 324 00:16:55,264 --> 00:16:59,685 but having read a little bit and hearing that piece is like, oh, there's actually a 325 00:17:00,019 --> 00:17:04,148 there's some chemical processes going on in the brain here that I, oh, 326 00:17:04,148 --> 00:17:08,944 I didn't know that, you know, and whoa, that, that like you said, wading upstream, 327 00:17:08,944 --> 00:17:12,656 you know, you're going or running with the 100 pounds on your back. 328 00:17:13,073 --> 00:17:15,576 Those things make it a lot harder. Right. 329 00:17:15,576 --> 00:17:18,954 Because because your body is saying, oh, if I do this, I'll get this instant 330 00:17:18,954 --> 00:17:21,957 chemical, dump in the brain or whatever. 331 00:17:21,999 --> 00:17:24,585 You know, again, I don't know all the exact science, 332 00:17:24,585 --> 00:17:26,587 but there's lots of research on this, right? 333 00:17:26,587 --> 00:17:29,590 The Dopamine hit. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. 334 00:17:29,590 --> 00:17:33,343 Which, unfortunately, things like social media are intentionally engineered 335 00:17:33,343 --> 00:17:36,805 to hijack that part of the brain, which maybe we shouldn't 336 00:17:36,805 --> 00:17:39,767 get in a social media addiction, but that's. That's a thing, I. 337 00:17:39,767 --> 00:17:42,102 I think it needs to be named. That is a thing. Yeah. 338 00:17:42,102 --> 00:17:46,065 And and this isn't like some wacky conspiracy anti Facebook rant. 339 00:17:46,106 --> 00:17:48,567 I mean, this is this is well documented, you know. 340 00:17:48,567 --> 00:17:52,446 Social media companies hire, you know, neuroscientists 341 00:17:52,446 --> 00:17:55,616 and, and engineers that study this stuff and figure out how to make the product 342 00:17:55,783 --> 00:17:59,411 give you the maximum dopamine hit if you use their, their app, whatever. 343 00:18:00,537 --> 00:18:02,331 we've really got to think about this with our children. 344 00:18:02,331 --> 00:18:02,664 Right. 345 00:18:02,664 --> 00:18:07,002 What if we, if you just hand the iPhone to a little child, you're setting them up 346 00:18:07,002 --> 00:18:12,132 to potentially become a social media addict or like a dopamine hit addict. 347 00:18:12,132 --> 00:18:13,342 Really? I mean. 348 00:18:13,342 --> 00:18:13,717 Yeah. 349 00:18:13,717 --> 00:18:16,762 And dopamine being that nice, warm, fuzzy feeling when, you know, 350 00:18:16,762 --> 00:18:20,015 you post a photo to Instagram or something and the likes start coming through 351 00:18:20,015 --> 00:18:23,018 and you go, wow, you know, all these people like me and whatever. 352 00:18:23,685 --> 00:18:26,271 And that, that's that, 353 00:18:26,271 --> 00:18:28,941 that's a that can get its hooks in you 354 00:18:28,941 --> 00:18:33,570 because again, the, the feel good, chemical or whatever 355 00:18:33,570 --> 00:18:37,574 you're feeling inside you, all that warm, fuzzy feeling it's in you. 356 00:18:37,825 --> 00:18:39,868 Like you were saying, it's an instant hit. 357 00:18:39,868 --> 00:18:44,623 So how, like, intellectually, we may know all this, right? 358 00:18:44,623 --> 00:18:47,918 But then how how do you break this cycle 359 00:18:47,918 --> 00:18:51,296 that we may have developed with, again, whatever this addiction may be? 360 00:18:52,422 --> 00:18:53,924 Yeah. 361 00:18:53,924 --> 00:18:54,716 Yeah. 362 00:18:54,716 --> 00:18:59,930 So you know hanging in there with a healthy coping hanging in there 363 00:18:59,930 --> 00:19:03,392 until you start to see the benefit, until you start to experience the benefit. 364 00:19:03,392 --> 00:19:06,103 So for example anxiety. 365 00:19:06,103 --> 00:19:09,106 And just to backtrack really briefly to the roots, 366 00:19:10,566 --> 00:19:13,152 many, many, many of the people that I worked with 367 00:19:13,152 --> 00:19:16,530 who are addicted have chronic anxiety. 368 00:19:17,406 --> 00:19:19,283 So that's something to really be curious about. 369 00:19:19,283 --> 00:19:22,452 Not everyone, but many times, 370 00:19:23,287 --> 00:19:26,623 so untreated anxiety often is a driver of addiction. 371 00:19:26,790 --> 00:19:27,791 Question on that. 372 00:19:27,791 --> 00:19:29,835 Just a touch on that a bit. 373 00:19:29,835 --> 00:19:32,421 Is this anxiety that they are aware that they have 374 00:19:32,421 --> 00:19:37,092 or is this unconscious like it's there but they actually haven't identified. 375 00:19:37,718 --> 00:19:38,927 often it's unidentified. 376 00:19:38,927 --> 00:19:43,182 I mean, I mean, they sort of know, they may not use that word for it. 377 00:19:43,223 --> 00:19:46,768 I think there's a lot of anxiety that we don't realize we carry. 378 00:19:46,768 --> 00:19:47,311 Yeah. 379 00:19:47,311 --> 00:19:50,189 on, and the reason why I wanted to ask that is I'm thinking, 380 00:19:50,189 --> 00:19:51,106 oh, someone listening as. 381 00:19:51,106 --> 00:19:53,984 Oh, well, I don't have, you know, anxiety. I'm fine. 382 00:19:53,984 --> 00:19:55,777 You know, like, I don't have that problem. 383 00:19:55,777 --> 00:19:58,572 But you're saying that actually, sometimes they don't 384 00:19:58,572 --> 00:20:01,867 even realize that that the anxiety is part of the roots. 385 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:03,744 Yeah. 386 00:20:03,744 --> 00:20:05,329 Yeah. It's not just panic attacks. 387 00:20:05,329 --> 00:20:08,332 It's it's not just worried. 388 00:20:08,582 --> 00:20:10,792 We carry a lot of tension in our bodies. 389 00:20:10,792 --> 00:20:13,462 Many times we don't notice as we're too busy. 390 00:20:13,462 --> 00:20:16,506 We're just going about our daily life and we're not stopping 391 00:20:16,506 --> 00:20:19,509 to, again, we don't realize that we have bodies, right? 392 00:20:19,509 --> 00:20:21,929 We don't realize what's going on. 393 00:20:21,929 --> 00:20:24,306 The physical tension that we carry, 394 00:20:24,306 --> 00:20:27,309 or the mental strain is in the back, in the mind. 395 00:20:28,477 --> 00:20:30,479 That can also be a part of this too. Right. 396 00:20:30,479 --> 00:20:34,358 Just in general mental fatigue or strain or stress. 397 00:20:35,108 --> 00:20:38,403 If you're, if you're having that because oh you're, 398 00:20:38,445 --> 00:20:39,988 you're working long hours whatever. 399 00:20:39,988 --> 00:20:42,658 And then you may be looking for how do I cope with that. 400 00:20:42,658 --> 00:20:43,492 Right. 401 00:20:43,492 --> 00:20:44,993 Could that not be another way. 402 00:20:44,993 --> 00:20:47,162 Someone could get into addiction. 403 00:20:47,162 --> 00:20:47,955 Yeah. Yeah. 404 00:20:47,955 --> 00:20:51,583 I think many times what happens is it's not like the person is consciously 405 00:20:51,583 --> 00:20:54,628 thinking, oh, I'm under stress, how can I medicate? 406 00:20:54,628 --> 00:20:56,171 Oh, I'll look at pornography. 407 00:20:56,171 --> 00:20:56,505 Right. 408 00:20:56,505 --> 00:21:01,385 It's you know, but but they're primed for that because of this unrelieved stress. 409 00:21:02,261 --> 00:21:05,430 And by ignoring stress, ignoring anxiety, ignoring 410 00:21:05,430 --> 00:21:08,642 emotional pain, ignoring anger, whatever it is. 411 00:21:08,642 --> 00:21:13,814 Because it isn't, noticed because it isn't named, because it isn't dealt with. 412 00:21:13,855 --> 00:21:15,899 A person is much more vulnerable than, 413 00:21:17,150 --> 00:21:20,153 to deal with it the wrong way. 414 00:21:20,404 --> 00:21:20,904 Yeah. 415 00:21:20,904 --> 00:21:22,322 This. 416 00:21:22,322 --> 00:21:23,407 Wow. Yeah. 417 00:21:23,407 --> 00:21:27,035 This is, this is a lot to to think about I mean it's 418 00:21:29,454 --> 00:21:31,456 I think the piece that I'm 419 00:21:31,456 --> 00:21:35,043 thinking at the moment is everyone listening to this, 420 00:21:35,627 --> 00:21:39,256 you know, can easily find cases of addiction around them. 421 00:21:39,298 --> 00:21:42,843 It's not hard to see whether that be a way. 422 00:21:42,843 --> 00:21:45,846 We mentioned, you know, social media or, you know, alcohol or whatever. 423 00:21:46,596 --> 00:21:50,684 Or walk the streets of any city you're going to see drug addiction or something. 424 00:21:51,226 --> 00:21:54,229 What are 425 00:21:55,355 --> 00:21:58,358 what are ways people can help? 426 00:21:59,318 --> 00:22:02,696 Which I know is kind of broad obviously because every situation is different. 427 00:22:02,779 --> 00:22:03,697 There's all these different types. 428 00:22:03,697 --> 00:22:07,701 But, but what are some, some basics that we can keep in mind. 429 00:22:09,453 --> 00:22:13,290 So getting the balance of confrontation 430 00:22:13,498 --> 00:22:16,668 and care, getting that balance right. 431 00:22:17,210 --> 00:22:21,506 So there is a place for confrontation I mean for example a family intervention. 432 00:22:21,506 --> 00:22:21,882 Right. 433 00:22:21,882 --> 00:22:26,845 Where, where the family where you sit down and say, look, you have a problem. 434 00:22:26,845 --> 00:22:28,638 We really need to get you help. Will you please? 435 00:22:28,638 --> 00:22:31,350 You know, I'm making an appeal to a family member. 436 00:22:33,018 --> 00:22:34,644 We have to tell the truth to people. 437 00:22:34,644 --> 00:22:36,063 Sometimes we have to tell hard truths. 438 00:22:36,063 --> 00:22:38,398 So there is that side of it. 439 00:22:38,398 --> 00:22:41,693 I think we have to really be careful, though, about over 440 00:22:41,693 --> 00:22:44,696 relying on confrontation. 441 00:22:44,821 --> 00:22:47,783 So many people who are addicted 442 00:22:47,783 --> 00:22:50,786 know that they have a problem, right? 443 00:22:51,161 --> 00:22:55,332 And they feel very badly about themselves, whether they admit it or not. 444 00:22:55,957 --> 00:22:59,461 And one of the things that we can do is unintentionally trigger 445 00:22:59,461 --> 00:23:02,464 or exacerbate their shame. 446 00:23:02,964 --> 00:23:05,967 people who deal with chronic shame don't necessarily admit it, 447 00:23:06,176 --> 00:23:08,261 they don't necessarily show it right. 448 00:23:08,261 --> 00:23:11,515 That doesn't mean tiptoeing around people, but we really need to be aware. 449 00:23:12,224 --> 00:23:13,225 People often feel 450 00:23:13,225 --> 00:23:17,270 very badly about themselves and feel very badly about the addiction. 451 00:23:17,521 --> 00:23:18,438 Oh yeah. 452 00:23:18,438 --> 00:23:22,192 Because could could not a lot of us get start getting lumped in with things 453 00:23:22,192 --> 00:23:27,114 like self-worth identity like very much so and so. 454 00:23:27,114 --> 00:23:28,407 You might use the word cycle. 455 00:23:28,407 --> 00:23:30,951 And so in many ways that that is the cycle. 456 00:23:30,951 --> 00:23:34,037 A person feels badly about themselves, 457 00:23:34,371 --> 00:23:37,249 that makes their emotional distress worse. 458 00:23:37,249 --> 00:23:39,459 They medicate that through an addictive activity 459 00:23:39,459 --> 00:23:40,752 that makes them feel worse about them. 460 00:23:40,752 --> 00:23:42,587 And around and around it goes. 461 00:23:42,587 --> 00:23:45,882 And that kind of comes back to one of the earlier things 462 00:23:46,133 --> 00:23:48,176 that, that you had answered, where 463 00:23:48,176 --> 00:23:51,138 if we have this attitude of just like, well, why don't you just stop doing that? 464 00:23:51,138 --> 00:23:54,516 You know, or confronting something pretty just like, well, just don't do that. 465 00:23:55,142 --> 00:23:58,353 Yes. You may actually push it the wrong direction. 466 00:23:58,603 --> 00:23:59,729 Yeah. 467 00:23:59,729 --> 00:24:02,524 That's a bit scary or scary or something. 468 00:24:02,524 --> 00:24:04,943 We really should keep that in mind. 469 00:24:04,943 --> 00:24:06,486 Because, I mean, that's 470 00:24:06,486 --> 00:24:09,239 I would hope that's the last thing someone will want to do. 471 00:24:09,239 --> 00:24:09,990 Right. 472 00:24:09,990 --> 00:24:11,408 You don't want to make it worse. 473 00:24:11,408 --> 00:24:13,076 So gracious truth telling. 474 00:24:13,076 --> 00:24:15,287 Accountability depending on what your role is. 475 00:24:15,287 --> 00:24:18,415 So it's like the trauma thing that we talked about before 476 00:24:18,957 --> 00:24:21,251 in the other interview. 477 00:24:21,251 --> 00:24:22,878 It depends on what your role is. 478 00:24:22,878 --> 00:24:25,130 It depends on what your lane is. 479 00:24:25,130 --> 00:24:29,092 I would really encourage, you know, 480 00:24:29,384 --> 00:24:32,721 stick with this person for the long haul. 481 00:24:33,889 --> 00:24:34,389 Or in other words, 482 00:24:34,389 --> 00:24:37,976 are you willing to hang in there and be a support to them 483 00:24:38,310 --> 00:24:41,646 if it takes a long time for them to overcome their addiction? 484 00:24:42,939 --> 00:24:44,191 You got to pace yourself. 485 00:24:44,191 --> 00:24:46,943 This is a marathon. It's not a sprint. 486 00:24:46,943 --> 00:24:49,946 And many times what we do is we want to fix people. 487 00:24:50,864 --> 00:24:52,407 We want them to get better all at once. 488 00:24:52,407 --> 00:24:54,868 We want them to make the choices we want them to make. 489 00:24:54,868 --> 00:24:57,078 We become super involved. 490 00:24:57,078 --> 00:25:00,081 And if they don't change, then we get frustrated and we drop them. 491 00:25:00,499 --> 00:25:02,876 And so what you've really got to ask yourself if you're trying to help 492 00:25:02,876 --> 00:25:06,046 someone with an addiction, am I going to walk with this person, 493 00:25:06,922 --> 00:25:09,049 even if it takes months? 494 00:25:09,049 --> 00:25:13,345 Be honest about maybe the level of patience that you have. 495 00:25:13,386 --> 00:25:15,222 Is that a way of saying it? Yes. 496 00:25:15,222 --> 00:25:18,558 Yeah. Yeah. Because I think that is. 497 00:25:19,518 --> 00:25:20,894 Well, this could almost be 498 00:25:20,894 --> 00:25:24,564 classified as another addiction, the addiction of hurry, like, you know. 499 00:25:24,940 --> 00:25:28,902 And so if the solution doesn't happen right away, we can kind of like. 500 00:25:28,902 --> 00:25:29,611 Oh, well, okay. 501 00:25:29,611 --> 00:25:34,366 Just, you know, And if you think about it hurry. 502 00:25:34,449 --> 00:25:38,245 And the inability to tolerate distress is a driver of addiction. 503 00:25:38,245 --> 00:25:38,453 Right. 504 00:25:38,453 --> 00:25:39,621 That's another one of the drivers. 505 00:25:39,621 --> 00:25:42,624 So there's a certain irony about that. 506 00:25:43,333 --> 00:25:45,377 I have not thought of that before. 507 00:25:45,377 --> 00:25:47,963 we want people to tolerate their distress. 508 00:25:47,963 --> 00:25:50,924 That doesn't mean accept the dysfunction in their life, 509 00:25:50,924 --> 00:25:55,595 but to tolerate emotional pain in small doses, right? 510 00:25:55,637 --> 00:25:58,640 To be able to sit with loneliness, 511 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,810 to be able to sit with anger, to be able to sit with anxiety 512 00:26:02,936 --> 00:26:05,230 without having to medicate immediately. 513 00:26:05,230 --> 00:26:08,149 Right, without having to distract from it. 514 00:26:08,149 --> 00:26:11,361 And when you could have the experience of facing that thing 515 00:26:11,361 --> 00:26:14,364 and sitting with that thing calmly, 516 00:26:14,739 --> 00:26:17,659 in a grounded kind of way, 517 00:26:18,994 --> 00:26:21,162 that can really break the power of the addiction, 518 00:26:21,162 --> 00:26:24,165 because then you learn that I don't have to have this right. 519 00:26:24,374 --> 00:26:26,209 And it's not just a notion now. 520 00:26:26,209 --> 00:26:28,670 It's an experience you're having. 521 00:26:28,670 --> 00:26:31,715 The experience of being able to tolerate 522 00:26:31,715 --> 00:26:34,718 the thing that you're that you're medicating with your addiction. 523 00:26:34,801 --> 00:26:38,179 You don't know it as just an intellectual thing. 524 00:26:38,221 --> 00:26:39,264 Well I know this. 525 00:26:39,264 --> 00:26:42,267 You like you said you've actually experienced it 526 00:26:42,392 --> 00:26:44,060 and can slowly start remapping it. 527 00:26:44,060 --> 00:26:45,437 I guess, you know. 528 00:26:45,437 --> 00:26:48,440 So helping people sit with their distress 529 00:26:48,565 --> 00:26:51,610 in whatever way is appropriate to your role in your, in their life. 530 00:26:52,569 --> 00:26:55,530 So this may take us in a different direction. 531 00:26:55,530 --> 00:26:58,533 That might not be applicable but I feel like I should ask it. 532 00:26:59,784 --> 00:27:02,579 There's this classic Christian 533 00:27:02,579 --> 00:27:06,541 doctrine belief that we have called temperance. 534 00:27:07,167 --> 00:27:12,339 Does temperance play into this temperance, patience, etc., etc.. 535 00:27:12,380 --> 00:27:14,924 Or am I off off the rails a bit? 536 00:27:14,924 --> 00:27:15,592 Oh, totally. 537 00:27:15,592 --> 00:27:17,677 I mean self-control, yes. 538 00:27:17,677 --> 00:27:19,596 One of the fruits of the spirit. 539 00:27:19,596 --> 00:27:20,430 Totally. 540 00:27:20,430 --> 00:27:23,391 Yeah, yeah, Perhaps, 541 00:27:23,642 --> 00:27:26,686 perhaps we could do with more, 542 00:27:26,686 --> 00:27:30,649 awareness and and engagement with the concept of temperance. 543 00:27:30,774 --> 00:27:31,733 Perhaps. 544 00:27:31,733 --> 00:27:34,861 I think, especially in our society. 545 00:27:36,655 --> 00:27:38,948 I mean, 546 00:27:38,948 --> 00:27:41,951 we don't have to wait for anything, right? 547 00:27:42,118 --> 00:27:45,872 I mean, Okay so, we're filming this in Lancaster. 548 00:27:46,206 --> 00:27:49,000 And last night, we realized there was this piece of gear 549 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,045 we needed for doing the doing the interviews, and we really needed it. 550 00:27:52,253 --> 00:27:54,714 So I quick go on Amazon, and lo and behold, 551 00:27:54,714 --> 00:27:56,549 I can have it delivered by the next morning. 552 00:27:56,549 --> 00:28:00,553 And I'm just like, it's it's 930 at night or whatever it was. 553 00:28:00,804 --> 00:28:02,347 And it'll be here in the morning. 554 00:28:02,347 --> 00:28:04,808 I don't even have to wait like that. 555 00:28:04,808 --> 00:28:05,934 Just kind of blew my mind. 556 00:28:05,934 --> 00:28:09,896 And it felt like that's such a snapshot of American or Western society. 557 00:28:10,980 --> 00:28:13,650 But anyways, what what does that do? 558 00:28:13,650 --> 00:28:16,194 Yeah. What does that do to our souls? 559 00:28:16,194 --> 00:28:16,444 Yeah. 560 00:28:16,444 --> 00:28:19,864 And I mean, look, I use Amazon, I use the internet. 561 00:28:19,864 --> 00:28:24,744 I mean, yeah, my point is, is not that these things are bad, obviously, 562 00:28:24,994 --> 00:28:28,373 but I think we really need to think about what kinds of spiritual disciplines 563 00:28:28,373 --> 00:28:32,919 help us not to be caught up in the spirit of the age. 564 00:28:32,919 --> 00:28:36,798 So things like a temporary internet fast, for example, 565 00:28:37,632 --> 00:28:39,926 or an Amazon fast 566 00:28:39,926 --> 00:28:42,929 or one or whatever it might be. 567 00:28:43,263 --> 00:28:44,764 Yeah. I think that there's. 568 00:28:47,142 --> 00:28:48,309 Here's another analogy. 569 00:28:48,309 --> 00:28:52,188 What kind of soil does addiction grow in? 570 00:28:52,188 --> 00:28:55,525 And I think it grows quite well 571 00:28:55,525 --> 00:28:58,695 in the soil of the consumer lifestyle. 572 00:28:59,446 --> 00:29:02,490 So for example, I mean, this isn't consumerism per se, but 573 00:29:02,824 --> 00:29:06,202 one of the things I've noticed with men who struggle with pornography is 574 00:29:06,911 --> 00:29:09,372 oftentimes their weakest moment is when they're just 575 00:29:09,372 --> 00:29:12,542 scrolling the internet on their phone and they're not looking at anything bad. 576 00:29:12,584 --> 00:29:17,964 It might be very good content, but that's a slippery slope moment for them, right? 577 00:29:17,964 --> 00:29:20,967 They're already in the hand of that zone of checking out, 578 00:29:21,926 --> 00:29:25,388 just by kind of mindless internet use. 579 00:29:25,388 --> 00:29:27,182 Right. 580 00:29:27,182 --> 00:29:30,185 feel like that's an important piece right there. 581 00:29:30,310 --> 00:29:33,146 And this is something that we're all dealing with this. 582 00:29:33,146 --> 00:29:33,354 Right. 583 00:29:33,354 --> 00:29:36,357 We're all dealing with we in the West 584 00:29:36,357 --> 00:29:41,738 the effects of prosperity, the information explosion, the consumer lifestyle. 585 00:29:41,738 --> 00:29:44,157 Right. We're all trying to work this out. 586 00:29:44,157 --> 00:29:46,242 I'm sure we all have growth areas in that. 587 00:29:46,242 --> 00:29:46,826 And so 588 00:29:48,036 --> 00:29:50,997 that that's another thing that I think can help us 589 00:29:50,997 --> 00:29:55,919 to have compassion for addiction, for people with addiction. 590 00:29:55,919 --> 00:29:56,544 Right. 591 00:29:56,544 --> 00:29:59,672 Is that we all struggle with 592 00:30:00,673 --> 00:30:03,676 medicating or distracting in the wrong way. 593 00:30:04,385 --> 00:30:07,555 Again I feels like that that was an important piece there as well 594 00:30:07,597 --> 00:30:11,434 because it's pretty easy to look at someone who's addicted to 595 00:30:11,893 --> 00:30:15,146 whatever suffering from some type of addiction and say oh 596 00:30:15,313 --> 00:30:19,067 why don't they just stop that without realizing the hypocrisy of that 597 00:30:19,067 --> 00:30:24,572 when you know you yourself may be dealing with a form of addiction in your own life 598 00:30:24,572 --> 00:30:28,117 that you hadn't even thought of, but it's, you know, you actually have 599 00:30:28,326 --> 00:30:32,872 a slight addiction to mindlessly scrolling social media, you know, endlessly 600 00:30:32,872 --> 00:30:37,418 or so, like, I mean, the data on that, by the way, for America is is insane. 601 00:30:37,418 --> 00:30:42,131 Like how much time is spent mindlessly scrolling social media, for example? 602 00:30:42,465 --> 00:30:45,385 And yet you may have that, but 603 00:30:45,385 --> 00:30:48,429 then point your finger at someone else, you know, and say, oh, they're addicted. 604 00:30:49,889 --> 00:30:50,974 I guess that kind of comes back 605 00:30:50,974 --> 00:30:54,060 to one of the things we had been saying previously is like, how do we be gracious? 606 00:30:54,227 --> 00:30:58,022 Like, and, well, I guess humility would go right along with that. 607 00:30:58,189 --> 00:30:59,983 You know, 608 00:30:59,983 --> 00:31:02,235 Another thing is curiosity. 609 00:31:02,235 --> 00:31:05,405 So okay how did this person get to where they are. 610 00:31:05,405 --> 00:31:08,116 They didn't wake up one day and say I'm going to be addicted. 611 00:31:08,116 --> 00:31:11,119 I'm going to look at pornography I want to drink. 612 00:31:11,327 --> 00:31:12,871 What's the story behind. 613 00:31:12,871 --> 00:31:16,499 And you know, not to use that to make excuses for sinful behavior. 614 00:31:16,499 --> 00:31:20,295 But what's the story behind this person's struggle? 615 00:31:21,588 --> 00:31:23,548 Can we ask more questions? 616 00:31:23,548 --> 00:31:26,551 And this would apply to any struggle, right. 617 00:31:27,010 --> 00:31:30,013 Trauma, mental health, addiction. 618 00:31:30,638 --> 00:31:32,432 I think that's a really good point. 619 00:31:32,432 --> 00:31:33,391 Yeah. 620 00:31:33,391 --> 00:31:34,309 one of the things we got to really be 621 00:31:34,309 --> 00:31:38,313 careful about is ideologies or fads or agendas that 622 00:31:39,522 --> 00:31:40,148 leave us 623 00:31:40,148 --> 00:31:43,401 feeling like, oh, I know what your problem is, right? 624 00:31:44,110 --> 00:31:47,822 Your problem is you have a demon or your problem is idols of 625 00:31:47,822 --> 00:31:49,657 the heart of your problem is your childhood pain, 626 00:31:49,657 --> 00:31:51,993 or your problem is an undisciplined lifestyle. 627 00:31:51,993 --> 00:31:54,495 Any of those things potentially could be a factor. 628 00:31:54,495 --> 00:31:57,790 I'm not dismissing any of those categories, but I'm just saying 629 00:31:58,708 --> 00:32:03,421 let's be more curious about people's experience and not put people in boxes. 630 00:32:04,088 --> 00:32:08,092 it's so easy to put people in boxes. 631 00:32:08,426 --> 00:32:11,930 I guess that's I guess that's just a human thing that we do to each other. 632 00:32:11,971 --> 00:32:13,848 I don't know when I kind of know where 633 00:32:13,848 --> 00:32:16,851 where we want to peg somebody or something. 634 00:32:17,143 --> 00:32:17,644 Yeah. 635 00:32:17,644 --> 00:32:20,647 Yeah, well, it makes it easier for us. 636 00:32:21,272 --> 00:32:22,523 That's that's a good point. 637 00:32:22,523 --> 00:32:23,608 Yeah. Yeah. 638 00:32:23,608 --> 00:32:24,943 yeah. 639 00:32:24,943 --> 00:32:27,362 And, I mean, you have to have ways of thinking about things. 640 00:32:27,362 --> 00:32:29,489 You have to have hooks to hang things on. 641 00:32:29,489 --> 00:32:32,075 We need to simplify our thoughts. And so 642 00:32:33,159 --> 00:32:35,244 certainly it's understandable. 643 00:32:35,244 --> 00:32:36,955 that that does make sense. 644 00:32:36,955 --> 00:32:38,373 Yeah. 645 00:32:38,373 --> 00:32:40,625 So to back it up a little bit. 646 00:32:40,625 --> 00:32:43,628 Addiction is kind of a bleak topic. 647 00:32:44,170 --> 00:32:46,297 And and you know. 648 00:32:46,297 --> 00:32:49,300 Yeah. And 649 00:32:49,509 --> 00:32:53,930 yeah we hear some things on, on the recovery process and, and so forth. 650 00:32:54,055 --> 00:32:55,890 There's a lot more to this. 651 00:32:55,890 --> 00:33:00,395 There's obviously, an enormous amount of work has been done in this sector. 652 00:33:00,436 --> 00:33:02,230 Which is which is good. 653 00:33:02,230 --> 00:33:06,401 But as we kind of pull back and look at the whole package 654 00:33:06,401 --> 00:33:09,112 that we've went through in this, in this podcast, 655 00:33:09,112 --> 00:33:11,239 what is something you'd like to leave our audience with? 656 00:33:11,239 --> 00:33:14,325 What's maybe a piece of advice or something you think would be helpful? 657 00:33:14,659 --> 00:33:15,451 Yeah. 658 00:33:15,451 --> 00:33:18,621 Some principles to keep in mind as we go from here. 659 00:33:20,331 --> 00:33:21,207 Two things. 660 00:33:21,207 --> 00:33:24,210 One, people can change. 661 00:33:24,919 --> 00:33:27,672 People can change. 662 00:33:27,672 --> 00:33:30,049 They can change because God has put incredible 663 00:33:30,049 --> 00:33:33,052 tools and resources into his creation. 664 00:33:33,261 --> 00:33:36,264 And two, because of the power of his spirit. 665 00:33:37,015 --> 00:33:39,350 And that's what the gospel is all about. 666 00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:40,643 One of the questions I hear a lot is, 667 00:33:40,643 --> 00:33:43,646 or is it possible to change, for example, pornography. 668 00:33:43,771 --> 00:33:45,690 Can you break a pornography habit? 669 00:33:45,690 --> 00:33:48,192 Yes, the answer is yes. 670 00:33:48,192 --> 00:33:49,944 So that's the first thing. 671 00:33:49,944 --> 00:33:52,447 The second thing is 672 00:33:52,447 --> 00:33:54,699 receive God's love, 673 00:33:54,699 --> 00:33:57,910 receive God's compassion, receive God's acceptance. 674 00:33:57,910 --> 00:34:00,705 And sometimes it's a severe mercy. 675 00:34:00,705 --> 00:34:03,708 And sometimes there's God's chastisement and all that. 676 00:34:04,125 --> 00:34:07,045 But people need to know deep down 677 00:34:07,045 --> 00:34:10,048 that they're loved by God. 678 00:34:10,089 --> 00:34:11,924 And people who hate themselves 679 00:34:11,924 --> 00:34:15,803 because of their addiction find it so much harder to move forward. 680 00:34:16,971 --> 00:34:20,016 And the turning point that I have seen again and again for people is 681 00:34:20,016 --> 00:34:23,686 when they can receive God's love, even while they are still struggling. 682 00:34:24,437 --> 00:34:27,440 Those are the ones who so often begin to move forward. 683 00:34:28,566 --> 00:34:32,195 Don't wait till you've conquered your addiction 684 00:34:32,195 --> 00:34:35,198 to let God love on you. 685 00:34:35,990 --> 00:34:38,993 I think that is. 686 00:34:39,535 --> 00:34:42,663 That is a powerful piece to end 687 00:34:43,706 --> 00:34:45,625 this episode with that. 688 00:34:45,625 --> 00:34:53,257 Wow, you've shared a lot of really interesting and helpful pieces today. 689 00:34:53,257 --> 00:34:58,179 And yeah, just thank you for the work that you've done in this area 690 00:34:58,179 --> 00:35:01,182 and reminding us that it is possible to change. 691 00:35:01,265 --> 00:35:05,853 And, there are ways that we can help and yeah, 692 00:35:06,979 --> 00:35:08,439 you're giving us a lot to think about. 693 00:35:08,439 --> 00:35:12,068 So I appreciate you taking the time today, Michael, to come and share with us. 694 00:35:13,027 --> 00:35:14,278 It's good to be here. 695 00:35:15,196 --> 00:35:17,573 Thanks for listening to this episode. 696 00:35:17,573 --> 00:35:20,409 If you found this interesting, you should check out the other interview 697 00:35:20,409 --> 00:35:22,036 we did with Michael a few years back. 698 00:35:22,036 --> 00:35:24,539 And you can find that linked in the description down below. 699 00:35:24,539 --> 00:35:27,917 We also regularly publish essays by Anabaptist thinkers, 700 00:35:27,917 --> 00:35:30,920 which you can find on our website or has its own podcast. 701 00:35:31,337 --> 00:35:34,549 Consider leaving a like and a review as it helps more people 702 00:35:34,549 --> 00:35:37,552 find what we're doing here at Anabaptist Perspectives. 703 00:35:37,593 --> 00:35:40,555 Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you in the next episode.