Speaker: 00:00:00

One of the things we got to really be

careful about is ideologies

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or fads or agendas that

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leave us feeling like, oh,

I know what your problem is, right?

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Your problem is you have a demon

or your problem is idols of

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the heart of your problem

is your childhood pain,

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or your problem

is an undisciplined lifestyle.

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Any of those things

potentially could be a factor.

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I'm not dismissing any of those

categories, but I'm just saying

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let's be more curious

about people's experience

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and not put people in boxes.

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All right, well, Michael,

welcome back to the podcast.

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We had you

on, I don't know, 4 or 5 years ago.

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So it's been a minute and I'm

so glad it worked to do this again.

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You're a counselor,

and you do different teaching

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and speaking in churches

and things as well.

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And we're to talk about

kind of a bleak topic,

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I guess, something that may be

a bit multifaceted, and I'm sure

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there's a lot of opinions, but

I know you have some experience in this,

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in this world. Through your work.

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And, I think you'd have something

to contribute for our audience.

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And that's the topic of addiction.

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So let's let's just jump

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right in and start with

what are some of the fundamentals,

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what are some basics that we should keep

in mind about addiction as a whole.

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And then if you want to narrow it

in a bit from there, and we'll just take

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it from there.

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Yeah.

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So you could think of addiction

as a bad habit on steroids if you want

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sort of a rough pop culture version.

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Yeah.

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An addiction

is anything that a person does

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habitually that overpowers them

or is hard to stop.

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That would be

one way of thinking about it.

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I think we should think broadly

about addiction.

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I think, you know, we tend to think of it

as it's drugs or alcohol, but,

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you know, you can be addicted to work,

you can be addicted to gambling,

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you can be addicted to video games.

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I think some people are addicted to anger.

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You can be addicted to the news cycle.

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Really, anything that we turn to

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to distract from our emotional pain,

our distress,

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and it becomes,

more powerful than we are, takes over.

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The human will.

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So really, I think

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we're looking at something really broad.

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You're describing something

that sounds almost like coping in a way,

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using it to cope with something very much

so, yeah.

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Do you want to narrow this in a bit?

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Addiction.

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This is like a whole family

of of things, of issues.

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But, yeah.

Do you want to get a bit more specific?

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So what I work with primarily

is pornography addiction.

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Which sadly is an epidemic

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in our circles as well as elsewhere.

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yeah.

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So this is, this is a,

this is a challenge here

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for sure with within our world.

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That I think that's pretty obvious.

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Let's start with some of the roots.

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What would you say are causes.

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What have you seen in your experience

working with this.

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And so forth.

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so first of all I love the way

you phrase that use the word roots.

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Because so often

when people talk about these things really

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any kind of emotional struggle

we often talk about the root cause.

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I, I've heard this often.

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What is the root cause.

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We need to find the root cause.

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And I think roots plural

is a much better way to think about it.

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So a big word that I learned in college,

multi causality.

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I don't know if that's a word

most people use or not, but

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I think that's really a good word

for multiple causes.

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And I think that's much more

accurate, much more helpful.

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So what are some of the roots.

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I think

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one of the biggest ones,

if there's a taproot,

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it's quite possibly emotional distress

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that a person has not learned to deal with

in a healthy way.

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The absence of healthy coping skills,

you know,

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so a very common story is a child,

a young person

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who grows up in a dysfunctional family

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or has been subjected to trauma

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or for some reason had chronic anxiety,

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whatever it might be, and didn't

have healthy ways to deal with that.

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And early on is exposed

to, for example, pornography

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and turns

to that to escape, to medicate, etc..

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Now that's not the only cause.

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And that isn't always the story.

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Everybody's story is different,

but that's a very common story.

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and that

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could happen for any number of types

of addiction.

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I'm assuming totally yeah.

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I mean, so one of the things we noticed is

the pattern is so often

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the same, whether it's sexual addiction,

alcohol addiction,

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there are obviously things about each type

of addiction that are unique.

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But yeah, same pattern very often.

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So when we think about addiction

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oftentimes it's really easy to,

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oh we hear someone struggling with that

or is addicted to this.

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Whatever.

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And we can say

oh why don't they just stop.

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I mean you know it's like

come on to get it together etc., etc..

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Any number of phrases

that are used against people that are,

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yeah, whatever the case may be, what's

some of the issues with that attitude

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and maybe what are some better ways

of engaging with the situation.

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Yeah. So.

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I think that's a great opportunity

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to introspect,

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to think about

one's own relationship with God.

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And and just to ask the question

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now, am I really do

I really have it so together myself?

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Am I really,

is there nothing about myself

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that I wish was different?

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And whatever that thing is thing

X in my life.

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So maybe thing

X isn’t alcohol or pornography, but

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whatever my growth area

is, why don't I just change, right?

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So I think that could be a good place

to start.

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Is just personal reflection. Ouch!

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The other thing is, I mean, so to reflect

biblically.

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Romans chapter seven.

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I do the things that I hate.

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I don't do the things that I want to do.

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I know the law of God. Right?

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So often we think that mere agreement,

mere notional assent,

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if you know what to do, there's

sort of this humanistic idea

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that that if people were just educated

better.

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Right.

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If we would just

if you would just knew the facts.

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And I think history shows that, you know,

that's not how it works.

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You know, by

the law is the knowledge of sin.

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We have that experiment

we were given, you know, God amply

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demonstrate that that human nature

is, is more flawed than that.

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But, yeah,

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anyone who struggles to understand,

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to appreciate

how difficult this can be really

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should just read Romans chapter seven

until they have it memorized.

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And then, of course,

let's read Romans chapter eight.

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Let's not stop reading.

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Let's, let's hear

about the power of the spirit as well.

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But you know, to take it to another level.

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People can be overwhelmed

by their desires,

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by habits, in their bodies, by

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nervous systems that have been habituated

to addictive activities.

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And we don't have as much control

over ourselves as we often think we do.

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And so someone who's been addicted,

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why don't they just change,

well they're wading upstream?

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They have neural

pathways, overwhelming desires.

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Withdrawal symptoms.

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I remember when I used to work in prison

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talking to a man who

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he was telling me how he overcame

his addiction to some kind of drug.

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I forget what the drug was.

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And he said he went to his friend

and said, I need to do detox.

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Can you put me up?

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His friend had a room for him.

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He stayed in the room.

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His friend locked the door at his request

and he told him, now

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don't let me out of

this room until I'm over it.

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And no

matter what I say, don't let me out.

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It wasn't long before he was banging

on the door and begging to let him out.

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Give me, give me some.

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You know, he wanted the drug

and cussing at his friend, you know.

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But his friend was true to his word.

He didn't let him out. And what?

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What this guy said was

the hardest thing was the withdrawal

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symptoms, the intense physical pain

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that I experienced

because my body was craving the drug.

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And so now obviously every addiction

doesn't come with that.

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But but in many cases,

there's incredible backlash

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that a person has to deal with

from their symptoms, from their system.

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Right.

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Another thing you often hear is

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once a person starts

saying no to the addiction,

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the craving, it just it comes back,

it comes back, it comes back.

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And and there's this feeling

that I'll never be able to get over this.

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I'll never be able to beat this

because it just keeps coming back.

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Now that's not true.

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There is a way to get over it,

and there is a way to beat it.

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But I just think we need to appreciate

the strong headwinds

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that come against the person

who tries to resist the addiction.

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you're describing things

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that sounds not just,

oh just make a decision in your mind.

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You're talking biology

like we are more than our minds.

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You know it's not like our

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our bodies are more than just a carrier

to get our mind around it,

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you know, so to speak. Right.

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And but that's so easy to forget, I guess.

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Or maybe forget is the wrong word,

but just

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you're describing things that are saying,

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you know,

the body gets a say in this, too, right?

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Totally. Yes.

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I think that that many Christians

need to discover that they have bodies.

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That's,

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that I think you I think you're

a pretty profound turf right there.

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Actually, I think you really are onto

something that maybe we've forgotten.

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We've become all ethereal,

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and it's just about our spirits

floating around in you or something.

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You know what I mean?

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And forget that you have body

and it has a say.

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I guess I don't.

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And again, you know,

this is out of my wheelhouse.

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I maybe I'm

speculating in the wrong territory, but,

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I yeah,

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I guess how do we keep that in mind?

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You know what I mean?

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Like,

how do we remember this when dealing,

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you know, interacting with someone

who is going through this process

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or has this addiction

that maybe they want to break it and even,

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But it's helpful to hear their stories,

hearing stories.

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I mean, like,

the guy was just talking about.

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The more we know about addiction,

the more we have personal connections

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with people who've experienced addiction.

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There are memoirs out there, you know,

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I think that helps a lot.

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It helps to make it vivid.

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It helps to make it,

to bring it closer to home.

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And so right with that then how can we

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those watching listening to this,

how can they be

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gracious and caring towards

those people that they know that

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that may be struggling with

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addiction or, or maybe they're just

someone they meet on the street.

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Whatever.

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How can we develop the natural response

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of being gracious

and caring for those people?

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Yeah.

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I mean,

I think, again, being educated on it,

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Finding out,

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you know, why addiction is so difficult

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and, and,

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the burdens that people carry,

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Yeah.

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You know, I mean, so,

again, coming back to the question,

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why don't they just change, you know,

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the person who tries to do right and fails

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because many of these people do

try, right?

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And I think that's something

that we really need to keep in mind

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now, there are people

who just accept their addiction.

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For sure.

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In my context as a counselor, I'm working

with people who want to change, right?

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Otherwise they wouldn't be there.

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Or they they don't last.

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If they're the ones

they don't want to change.

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So that's my context.

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These are people that it's

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like trying to run a marathon

with 100 pounds on your back, right?

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These people are carrying

a really heavy weight.

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And sometimes a person with an addiction

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makes far more effort to do right

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before they eventually fall

than maybe you or I do.

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And how does God evaluate that?

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You know, who

who is really living more righteously

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in God's eyes?

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I think those are helpful things

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to keep in mind

254

00:13:27,097 --> 00:13:28,933

so let's spin it around then.

255

00:13:28,933 --> 00:13:30,893

So we're just talking about

256

00:13:30,893 --> 00:13:34,730

how people could be more gracious

and caring towards those they encounter.

257

00:13:34,730 --> 00:13:37,733

That you know,

are suffering from addiction.

258

00:13:37,775 --> 00:13:38,901

Let's flip it around.

259

00:13:38,901 --> 00:13:42,738

What if there's someone listening to this

or whoever it is that's listening

260

00:13:42,738 --> 00:13:46,492

to this, who is struggling

with an addiction of some kind?

261

00:13:47,743 --> 00:13:50,538

What are

some steps to recovery and healing.

262

00:13:50,538 --> 00:13:53,374

So it depends so much

on, you know, what the addiction is

263

00:13:53,374 --> 00:13:56,377

and what, what level of addiction

we're talking about.

264

00:13:56,919 --> 00:14:00,422

Groups are really helpful

groups like Alcoholics Anonymous

265

00:14:00,422 --> 00:14:02,716

or Celebrate Recovery.

266

00:14:02,716 --> 00:14:07,930

There are specialized sexual addiction

for any kind of addiction.

267

00:14:08,222 --> 00:14:10,432

There's a group out there somewhere.

268

00:14:10,432 --> 00:14:15,062

Now obviously you have to to weigh

the merits of the individual group

269

00:14:15,062 --> 00:14:18,065

and and is it really Christian

and all that?

270

00:14:18,190 --> 00:14:20,609

But support groups are really helpful.

271

00:14:20,609 --> 00:14:23,612

Accountability can be really helpful

if it's done well.

272

00:14:25,114 --> 00:14:28,993

I think one of the biggest things

is finding

273

00:14:28,993 --> 00:14:32,913

healthy ways to cope

with whatever you're medicating.

274

00:14:34,415 --> 00:14:36,125

talk about that a bit more. Yeah.

275

00:14:36,125 --> 00:14:39,503

Because I think that's a we were going

back to kind of the roots thing.

276

00:14:39,753 --> 00:14:39,962

Yeah.

277

00:14:39,962 --> 00:14:42,965

And that was a piece

that definitely came up and so

278

00:14:43,215 --> 00:14:46,260

how can we have the self-awareness

to identify that.

279

00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:49,680

That's actually, you know,

that's a part of the puzzle perhaps.

280

00:14:49,805 --> 00:14:51,390

Yeah.

I like to hear you speak more on that.

281

00:14:52,349 --> 00:14:52,892

yeah.

282

00:14:52,892 --> 00:14:53,559

Yeah.

283

00:14:53,559 --> 00:14:58,522

I think that people who struggle

with addiction, some part of them.

284

00:14:58,522 --> 00:15:01,525

So it's unconscious or, or it's not,

285

00:15:02,735 --> 00:15:04,945

they know what's true notionally.

286

00:15:04,945 --> 00:15:09,658

But some part of the person

really feels deep down

287

00:15:10,075 --> 00:15:13,078

that this is the only way to cope.

288

00:15:13,162 --> 00:15:13,954

Okay.

289

00:15:13,954 --> 00:15:16,165

Yeah.

290

00:15:16,165 --> 00:15:18,417

Now, I know, you know,

that's not rational.

291

00:15:18,417 --> 00:15:20,920

But again,

we aren't rational as human beings, right?

292

00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,547

That's why we struggle as much as we do.

293

00:15:23,547 --> 00:15:24,798

That's why we don't get along.

294

00:15:24,798 --> 00:15:27,176

That's

why so many things are the way they are,

295

00:15:27,176 --> 00:15:30,179

because we're not rational

as human beings.

296

00:15:30,679 --> 00:15:33,641

And we have so many irrational processes

297

00:15:33,641 --> 00:15:36,644

at work inside of us many times, right.

298

00:15:37,102 --> 00:15:40,648

But there is some part of the person

that really does feel

299

00:15:41,398 --> 00:15:44,485

sincerely

that this is the only way to cope.

300

00:15:45,903 --> 00:15:47,613

So I think

one of the things we're trying to do

301

00:15:47,613 --> 00:15:50,991

is we're trying to make the idea

of healthy coping credible,

302

00:15:51,575 --> 00:15:54,119

and for that to happen,

you need experience.

303

00:15:54,119 --> 00:15:55,955

So it helps to hear it.

304

00:15:55,955 --> 00:15:58,958

It helps to know it,

but it really helps to experience it.

305

00:15:58,958 --> 00:16:03,170

So when you have the experience of,

for example, being able to calm

306

00:16:03,170 --> 00:16:06,256

your anxiety without alcohol,

307

00:16:06,924 --> 00:16:09,927

without smoking, without whatever it is,

308

00:16:11,178 --> 00:16:13,764

the trick is the difficulty

309

00:16:13,764 --> 00:16:17,226

is healthy ways of coping take longer.

310

00:16:18,227 --> 00:16:21,981

You don't get the instant

gratification right.

311

00:16:22,106 --> 00:16:24,483

You don't have those chemicals

coursing through your veins.

312

00:16:24,483 --> 00:16:26,986

You don't have the right. It takes longer.

313

00:16:26,986 --> 00:16:28,529

It takes more persistence.

314

00:16:28,529 --> 00:16:32,783

It takes, you know, it's you're building

a habit and that's one of the barriers.

315

00:16:32,783 --> 00:16:34,535

That's

one of the things that makes it difficult.

316

00:16:36,078 --> 00:16:36,662

That that's

317

00:16:36,662 --> 00:16:40,040

a that's a significant one

I think what you just said there.

318

00:16:40,457 --> 00:16:43,377

And then also you were saying

how you say an addiction

319

00:16:43,377 --> 00:16:46,839

or not, not the proper way of coping.

320

00:16:47,297 --> 00:16:49,800

There's an instant chemical response.

321

00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:50,592

Right.

322

00:16:50,592 --> 00:16:54,304

That's

a, that's a real piece that I don't know

323

00:16:54,304 --> 00:16:55,264

that that much about it,

324

00:16:55,264 --> 00:16:59,685

but having read a little bit and hearing

that piece is like, oh, there's actually a

325

00:17:00,019 --> 00:17:04,148

there's some chemical processes

going on in the brain here that I, oh,

326

00:17:04,148 --> 00:17:08,944

I didn't know that, you know, and whoa,

that, that like you said, wading upstream,

327

00:17:08,944 --> 00:17:12,656

you know, you're going or running with the

100 pounds on your back.

328

00:17:13,073 --> 00:17:15,576

Those things make it a lot harder. Right.

329

00:17:15,576 --> 00:17:18,954

Because because your body is saying,

oh, if I do this, I'll get this instant

330

00:17:18,954 --> 00:17:21,957

chemical, dump in the brain or whatever.

331

00:17:21,999 --> 00:17:24,585

You know, again,

I don't know all the exact science,

332

00:17:24,585 --> 00:17:26,587

but there's lots of research

on this, right?

333

00:17:26,587 --> 00:17:29,590

The Dopamine hit. Yeah.

There you go. Yeah.

334

00:17:29,590 --> 00:17:33,343

Which, unfortunately, things like social

media are intentionally engineered

335

00:17:33,343 --> 00:17:36,805

to hijack that part of the brain,

which maybe we shouldn't

336

00:17:36,805 --> 00:17:39,767

get in a social media addiction,

but that's. That's a thing, I.

337

00:17:39,767 --> 00:17:42,102

I think it needs to be named.

That is a thing. Yeah.

338

00:17:42,102 --> 00:17:46,065

And and this isn't like

some wacky conspiracy anti Facebook rant.

339

00:17:46,106 --> 00:17:48,567

I mean, this is

this is well documented, you know.

340

00:17:48,567 --> 00:17:52,446

Social media companies hire,

you know, neuroscientists

341

00:17:52,446 --> 00:17:55,616

and, and engineers that study this stuff

and figure out how to make the product

342

00:17:55,783 --> 00:17:59,411

give you the maximum dopamine hit

if you use their, their app, whatever.

343

00:18:00,537 --> 00:18:02,331

we've really got to think about this

with our children.

344

00:18:02,331 --> 00:18:02,664

Right.

345

00:18:02,664 --> 00:18:07,002

What if we, if you just hand the iPhone

to a little child, you're setting them up

346

00:18:07,002 --> 00:18:12,132

to potentially become a social media

addict or like a dopamine hit addict.

347

00:18:12,132 --> 00:18:13,342

Really? I mean.

348

00:18:13,342 --> 00:18:13,717

Yeah.

349

00:18:13,717 --> 00:18:16,762

And dopamine being that nice, warm,

fuzzy feeling when, you know,

350

00:18:16,762 --> 00:18:20,015

you post a photo to Instagram or something

and the likes start coming through

351

00:18:20,015 --> 00:18:23,018

and you go, wow, you know,

all these people like me and whatever.

352

00:18:23,685 --> 00:18:26,271

And that, that's that,

353

00:18:26,271 --> 00:18:28,941

that's a that can get its hooks in you

354

00:18:28,941 --> 00:18:33,570

because again, the,

the feel good, chemical or whatever

355

00:18:33,570 --> 00:18:37,574

you're feeling inside you,

all that warm, fuzzy feeling it's in you.

356

00:18:37,825 --> 00:18:39,868

Like you were saying, it's an instant hit.

357

00:18:39,868 --> 00:18:44,623

So how, like, intellectually,

we may know all this, right?

358

00:18:44,623 --> 00:18:47,918

But then how how do you break this cycle

359

00:18:47,918 --> 00:18:51,296

that we may have developed with, again,

whatever this addiction may be?

360

00:18:52,422 --> 00:18:53,924

Yeah.

361

00:18:53,924 --> 00:18:54,716

Yeah.

362

00:18:54,716 --> 00:18:59,930

So you know hanging in there

with a healthy coping hanging in there

363

00:18:59,930 --> 00:19:03,392

until you start to see the benefit,

until you start to experience the benefit.

364

00:19:03,392 --> 00:19:06,103

So for example anxiety.

365

00:19:06,103 --> 00:19:09,106

And just to backtrack

really briefly to the roots,

366

00:19:10,566 --> 00:19:13,152

many, many,

many of the people that I worked with

367

00:19:13,152 --> 00:19:16,530

who are addicted have chronic anxiety.

368

00:19:17,406 --> 00:19:19,283

So that's something

to really be curious about.

369

00:19:19,283 --> 00:19:22,452

Not everyone, but many times,

370

00:19:23,287 --> 00:19:26,623

so untreated

anxiety often is a driver of addiction.

371

00:19:26,790 --> 00:19:27,791

Question on that.

372

00:19:27,791 --> 00:19:29,835

Just a touch on that a bit.

373

00:19:29,835 --> 00:19:32,421

Is this anxiety

that they are aware that they have

374

00:19:32,421 --> 00:19:37,092

or is this unconscious like it's there

but they actually haven't identified.

375

00:19:37,718 --> 00:19:38,927

often it's unidentified.

376

00:19:38,927 --> 00:19:43,182

I mean, I mean, they sort of know,

they may not use that word for it.

377

00:19:43,223 --> 00:19:46,768

I think there's a lot of anxiety

that we don't realize we carry.

378

00:19:46,768 --> 00:19:47,311

Yeah.

379

00:19:47,311 --> 00:19:50,189

on, and the reason why I wanted to ask

that is I'm thinking,

380

00:19:50,189 --> 00:19:51,106

oh, someone listening as.

381

00:19:51,106 --> 00:19:53,984

Oh, well,

I don't have, you know, anxiety. I'm fine.

382

00:19:53,984 --> 00:19:55,777

You know, like, I don't have that problem.

383

00:19:55,777 --> 00:19:58,572

But you're saying that actually,

sometimes they don't

384

00:19:58,572 --> 00:20:01,867

even realize that

that the anxiety is part of the roots.

385

00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:03,744

Yeah.

386

00:20:03,744 --> 00:20:05,329

Yeah. It's not just panic attacks.

387

00:20:05,329 --> 00:20:08,332

It's it's not just worried.

388

00:20:08,582 --> 00:20:10,792

We carry a lot of tension in our bodies.

389

00:20:10,792 --> 00:20:13,462

Many times

we don't notice as we're too busy.

390

00:20:13,462 --> 00:20:16,506

We're just going about our daily life

and we're not stopping

391

00:20:16,506 --> 00:20:19,509

to, again, we don't realize that

we have bodies, right?

392

00:20:19,509 --> 00:20:21,929

We don't realize what's going on.

393

00:20:21,929 --> 00:20:24,306

The physical tension that we carry,

394

00:20:24,306 --> 00:20:27,309

or the mental strain is in the back,

in the mind.

395

00:20:28,477 --> 00:20:30,479

That can also be a part of this too.

Right.

396

00:20:30,479 --> 00:20:34,358

Just in general mental fatigue

or strain or stress.

397

00:20:35,108 --> 00:20:38,403

If you're,

if you're having that because oh you're,

398

00:20:38,445 --> 00:20:39,988

you're working long hours whatever.

399

00:20:39,988 --> 00:20:42,658

And then you may be looking for

how do I cope with that.

400

00:20:42,658 --> 00:20:43,492

Right.

401

00:20:43,492 --> 00:20:44,993

Could that not be another way.

402

00:20:44,993 --> 00:20:47,162

Someone could get into addiction.

403

00:20:47,162 --> 00:20:47,955

Yeah. Yeah.

404

00:20:47,955 --> 00:20:51,583

I think many times what happens is

it's not like the person is consciously

405

00:20:51,583 --> 00:20:54,628

thinking, oh, I'm under stress,

how can I medicate?

406

00:20:54,628 --> 00:20:56,171

Oh, I'll look at pornography.

407

00:20:56,171 --> 00:20:56,505

Right.

408

00:20:56,505 --> 00:21:01,385

It's you know, but but they're primed for

that because of this unrelieved stress.

409

00:21:02,261 --> 00:21:05,430

And by ignoring stress,

ignoring anxiety, ignoring

410

00:21:05,430 --> 00:21:08,642

emotional pain,

ignoring anger, whatever it is.

411

00:21:08,642 --> 00:21:13,814

Because it isn't, noticed because it

isn't named, because it isn't dealt with.

412

00:21:13,855 --> 00:21:15,899

A person is much more vulnerable than,

413

00:21:17,150 --> 00:21:20,153

to deal with it the wrong way.

414

00:21:20,404 --> 00:21:20,904

Yeah.

415

00:21:20,904 --> 00:21:22,322

This.

416

00:21:22,322 --> 00:21:23,407

Wow. Yeah.

417

00:21:23,407 --> 00:21:27,035

This is, this is a lot to to think about

I mean it's

418

00:21:29,454 --> 00:21:31,456

I think the piece that I'm

419

00:21:31,456 --> 00:21:35,043

thinking at the moment

is everyone listening to this,

420

00:21:35,627 --> 00:21:39,256

you know, can easily

find cases of addiction around them.

421

00:21:39,298 --> 00:21:42,843

It's not hard to see

whether that be a way.

422

00:21:42,843 --> 00:21:45,846

We mentioned, you know, social media or,

you know, alcohol or whatever.

423

00:21:46,596 --> 00:21:50,684

Or walk the streets of any city you're

going to see drug addiction or something.

424

00:21:51,226 --> 00:21:54,229

What are

425

00:21:55,355 --> 00:21:58,358

what are ways people can help?

426

00:21:59,318 --> 00:22:02,696

Which I know is kind of broad obviously

because every situation is different.

427

00:22:02,779 --> 00:22:03,697

There's all these different types.

428

00:22:03,697 --> 00:22:07,701

But, but what are some,

some basics that we can keep in mind.

429

00:22:09,453 --> 00:22:13,290

So getting the balance of confrontation

430

00:22:13,498 --> 00:22:16,668

and care, getting that balance right.

431

00:22:17,210 --> 00:22:21,506

So there is a place for confrontation

I mean for example a family intervention.

432

00:22:21,506 --> 00:22:21,882

Right.

433

00:22:21,882 --> 00:22:26,845

Where, where the family where you sit down

and say, look, you have a problem.

434

00:22:26,845 --> 00:22:28,638

We really need to get you help.

Will you please?

435

00:22:28,638 --> 00:22:31,350

You know, I'm

making an appeal to a family member.

436

00:22:33,018 --> 00:22:34,644

We have to tell the truth to people.

437

00:22:34,644 --> 00:22:36,063

Sometimes we have to tell hard truths.

438

00:22:36,063 --> 00:22:38,398

So there is that side of it.

439

00:22:38,398 --> 00:22:41,693

I think we have to really be

careful, though, about over

440

00:22:41,693 --> 00:22:44,696

relying on confrontation.

441

00:22:44,821 --> 00:22:47,783

So many people who are addicted

442

00:22:47,783 --> 00:22:50,786

know that they have a problem, right?

443

00:22:51,161 --> 00:22:55,332

And they feel very badly about themselves,

whether they admit it or not.

444

00:22:55,957 --> 00:22:59,461

And one of the things that we can do

is unintentionally trigger

445

00:22:59,461 --> 00:23:02,464

or exacerbate their shame.

446

00:23:02,964 --> 00:23:05,967

people who deal with chronic shame

don't necessarily admit it,

447

00:23:06,176 --> 00:23:08,261

they don't necessarily show it right.

448

00:23:08,261 --> 00:23:11,515

That doesn't mean tiptoeing around people,

but we really need to be aware.

449

00:23:12,224 --> 00:23:13,225

People often feel

450

00:23:13,225 --> 00:23:17,270

very badly about themselves

and feel very badly about the addiction.

451

00:23:17,521 --> 00:23:18,438

Oh yeah.

452

00:23:18,438 --> 00:23:22,192

Because could could not a lot of us

get start getting lumped in with things

453

00:23:22,192 --> 00:23:27,114

like self-worth identity like very much so

and so.

454

00:23:27,114 --> 00:23:28,407

You might use the word cycle.

455

00:23:28,407 --> 00:23:30,951

And so in many ways that that is

the cycle.

456

00:23:30,951 --> 00:23:34,037

A person feels badly about themselves,

457

00:23:34,371 --> 00:23:37,249

that makes their emotional distress worse.

458

00:23:37,249 --> 00:23:39,459

They medicate that

through an addictive activity

459

00:23:39,459 --> 00:23:40,752

that makes them feel worse about them.

460

00:23:40,752 --> 00:23:42,587

And around and around it goes.

461

00:23:42,587 --> 00:23:45,882

And that kind of comes back

to one of the earlier things

462

00:23:46,133 --> 00:23:48,176

that, that you had answered, where

463

00:23:48,176 --> 00:23:51,138

if we have this attitude of just like,

well, why don't you just stop doing that?

464

00:23:51,138 --> 00:23:54,516

You know, or confronting something pretty

just like, well, just don't do that.

465

00:23:55,142 --> 00:23:58,353

Yes. You may actually push it

the wrong direction.

466

00:23:58,603 --> 00:23:59,729

Yeah.

467

00:23:59,729 --> 00:24:02,524

That's a bit scary or scary or something.

468

00:24:02,524 --> 00:24:04,943

We really should keep that in mind.

469

00:24:04,943 --> 00:24:06,486

Because, I mean, that's

470

00:24:06,486 --> 00:24:09,239

I would hope that's the last thing

someone will want to do.

471

00:24:09,239 --> 00:24:09,990

Right.

472

00:24:09,990 --> 00:24:11,408

You don't want to make it worse.

473

00:24:11,408 --> 00:24:13,076

So gracious truth telling.

474

00:24:13,076 --> 00:24:15,287

Accountability

depending on what your role is.

475

00:24:15,287 --> 00:24:18,415

So it's like the trauma thing

that we talked about before

476

00:24:18,957 --> 00:24:21,251

in the other interview.

477

00:24:21,251 --> 00:24:22,878

It depends on what your role is.

478

00:24:22,878 --> 00:24:25,130

It depends on what your lane is.

479

00:24:25,130 --> 00:24:29,092

I would really encourage, you know,

480

00:24:29,384 --> 00:24:32,721

stick with this person for the long haul.

481

00:24:33,889 --> 00:24:34,389

Or in other words,

482

00:24:34,389 --> 00:24:37,976

are you willing to hang in there

and be a support to them

483

00:24:38,310 --> 00:24:41,646

if it takes a long time for them

to overcome their addiction?

484

00:24:42,939 --> 00:24:44,191

You got to pace yourself.

485

00:24:44,191 --> 00:24:46,943

This is a marathon. It's not a sprint.

486

00:24:46,943 --> 00:24:49,946

And many times

what we do is we want to fix people.

487

00:24:50,864 --> 00:24:52,407

We want them to get better all at once.

488

00:24:52,407 --> 00:24:54,868

We want them to make the choices

we want them to make.

489

00:24:54,868 --> 00:24:57,078

We become super involved.

490

00:24:57,078 --> 00:25:00,081

And if they don't change,

then we get frustrated and we drop them.

491

00:25:00,499 --> 00:25:02,876

And so what you've really got

to ask yourself if you're trying to help

492

00:25:02,876 --> 00:25:06,046

someone with an addiction,

am I going to walk with this person,

493

00:25:06,922 --> 00:25:09,049

even if it takes months?

494

00:25:09,049 --> 00:25:13,345

Be honest about

maybe the level of patience that you have.

495

00:25:13,386 --> 00:25:15,222

Is that a way of saying it? Yes.

496

00:25:15,222 --> 00:25:18,558

Yeah. Yeah. Because I think that is.

497

00:25:19,518 --> 00:25:20,894

Well, this could almost be

498

00:25:20,894 --> 00:25:24,564

classified as another addiction,

the addiction of hurry, like, you know.

499

00:25:24,940 --> 00:25:28,902

And so if the solution doesn't happen

right away, we can kind of like.

500

00:25:28,902 --> 00:25:29,611

Oh, well, okay.

501

00:25:29,611 --> 00:25:34,366

Just, you know,

And if you think about it hurry.

502

00:25:34,449 --> 00:25:38,245

And the inability to tolerate

distress is a driver of addiction.

503

00:25:38,245 --> 00:25:38,453

Right.

504

00:25:38,453 --> 00:25:39,621

That's another one of the drivers.

505

00:25:39,621 --> 00:25:42,624

So there's a certain irony about that.

506

00:25:43,333 --> 00:25:45,377

I have not thought of that before.

507

00:25:45,377 --> 00:25:47,963

we want people to tolerate their distress.

508

00:25:47,963 --> 00:25:50,924

That doesn't

mean accept the dysfunction in their life,

509

00:25:50,924 --> 00:25:55,595

but to tolerate emotional pain

in small doses, right?

510

00:25:55,637 --> 00:25:58,640

To be able to sit with loneliness,

511

00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,810

to be able to sit with anger,

to be able to sit with anxiety

512

00:26:02,936 --> 00:26:05,230

without having to medicate immediately.

513

00:26:05,230 --> 00:26:08,149

Right, without having to distract from it.

514

00:26:08,149 --> 00:26:11,361

And when you could have the experience

of facing that thing

515

00:26:11,361 --> 00:26:14,364

and sitting with that thing calmly,

516

00:26:14,739 --> 00:26:17,659

in a grounded kind of way,

517

00:26:18,994 --> 00:26:21,162

that can

really break the power of the addiction,

518

00:26:21,162 --> 00:26:24,165

because then you learn

that I don't have to have this right.

519

00:26:24,374 --> 00:26:26,209

And it's not just a notion now.

520

00:26:26,209 --> 00:26:28,670

It's an experience you're having.

521

00:26:28,670 --> 00:26:31,715

The experience of being able to tolerate

522

00:26:31,715 --> 00:26:34,718

the thing that you're that you're

medicating with your addiction.

523

00:26:34,801 --> 00:26:38,179

You don't know it

as just an intellectual thing.

524

00:26:38,221 --> 00:26:39,264

Well I know this.

525

00:26:39,264 --> 00:26:42,267

You like

you said you've actually experienced it

526

00:26:42,392 --> 00:26:44,060

and can slowly start remapping it.

527

00:26:44,060 --> 00:26:45,437

I guess, you know.

528

00:26:45,437 --> 00:26:48,440

So helping people sit with their distress

529

00:26:48,565 --> 00:26:51,610

in whatever way is appropriate

to your role in your, in their life.

530

00:26:52,569 --> 00:26:55,530

So this may take us

in a different direction.

531

00:26:55,530 --> 00:26:58,533

That might not be applicable

but I feel like I should ask it.

532

00:26:59,784 --> 00:27:02,579

There's this classic Christian

533

00:27:02,579 --> 00:27:06,541

doctrine

belief that we have called temperance.

534

00:27:07,167 --> 00:27:12,339

Does temperance play into this temperance,

patience, etc., etc..

535

00:27:12,380 --> 00:27:14,924

Or am I off off the rails a bit?

536

00:27:14,924 --> 00:27:15,592

Oh, totally.

537

00:27:15,592 --> 00:27:17,677

I mean self-control, yes.

538

00:27:17,677 --> 00:27:19,596

One of the fruits of the spirit.

539

00:27:19,596 --> 00:27:20,430

Totally.

540

00:27:20,430 --> 00:27:23,391

Yeah, yeah, Perhaps,

541

00:27:23,642 --> 00:27:26,686

perhaps we could do with more,

542

00:27:26,686 --> 00:27:30,649

awareness and and engagement

with the concept of temperance.

543

00:27:30,774 --> 00:27:31,733

Perhaps.

544

00:27:31,733 --> 00:27:34,861

I think, especially in our society.

545

00:27:36,655 --> 00:27:38,948

I mean,

546

00:27:38,948 --> 00:27:41,951

we don't have to wait for anything, right?

547

00:27:42,118 --> 00:27:45,872

I mean, Okay

so, we're filming this in Lancaster.

548

00:27:46,206 --> 00:27:49,000

And last night,

we realized there was this piece of gear

549

00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,045

we needed for doing the doing

the interviews, and we really needed it.

550

00:27:52,253 --> 00:27:54,714

So I quick go on Amazon,

and lo and behold,

551

00:27:54,714 --> 00:27:56,549

I can have it

delivered by the next morning.

552

00:27:56,549 --> 00:28:00,553

And I'm just like,

it's it's 930 at night or whatever it was.

553

00:28:00,804 --> 00:28:02,347

And it'll be here in the morning.

554

00:28:02,347 --> 00:28:04,808

I don't even have to wait like that.

555

00:28:04,808 --> 00:28:05,934

Just kind of blew my mind.

556

00:28:05,934 --> 00:28:09,896

And it felt like that's such a snapshot

of American or Western society.

557

00:28:10,980 --> 00:28:13,650

But anyways, what what does that do?

558

00:28:13,650 --> 00:28:16,194

Yeah. What does that do to our souls?

559

00:28:16,194 --> 00:28:16,444

Yeah.

560

00:28:16,444 --> 00:28:19,864

And I mean, look, I use Amazon,

I use the internet.

561

00:28:19,864 --> 00:28:24,744

I mean, yeah, my point is, is not that

these things are bad, obviously,

562

00:28:24,994 --> 00:28:28,373

but I think we really need to think about

what kinds of spiritual disciplines

563

00:28:28,373 --> 00:28:32,919

help us not to be

caught up in the spirit of the age.

564

00:28:32,919 --> 00:28:36,798

So things like a temporary internet fast,

for example,

565

00:28:37,632 --> 00:28:39,926

or an Amazon fast

566

00:28:39,926 --> 00:28:42,929

or one or whatever it might be.

567

00:28:43,263 --> 00:28:44,764

Yeah. I think that there's.

568

00:28:47,142 --> 00:28:48,309

Here's another analogy.

569

00:28:48,309 --> 00:28:52,188

What kind of soil does addiction grow in?

570

00:28:52,188 --> 00:28:55,525

And I think it grows quite well

571

00:28:55,525 --> 00:28:58,695

in the soil of the consumer lifestyle.

572

00:28:59,446 --> 00:29:02,490

So for example,

I mean, this isn't consumerism per se, but

573

00:29:02,824 --> 00:29:06,202

one of the things I've noticed

with men who struggle with pornography is

574

00:29:06,911 --> 00:29:09,372

oftentimes

their weakest moment is when they're just

575

00:29:09,372 --> 00:29:12,542

scrolling the internet on their phone

and they're not looking at anything bad.

576

00:29:12,584 --> 00:29:17,964

It might be very good content, but that's

a slippery slope moment for them, right?

577

00:29:17,964 --> 00:29:20,967

They're already in the hand of that zone

of checking out,

578

00:29:21,926 --> 00:29:25,388

just by kind of mindless internet use.

579

00:29:25,388 --> 00:29:27,182

Right.

580

00:29:27,182 --> 00:29:30,185

feel like that's an important piece

right there.

581

00:29:30,310 --> 00:29:33,146

And this is something

that we're all dealing with this.

582

00:29:33,146 --> 00:29:33,354

Right.

583

00:29:33,354 --> 00:29:36,357

We're all dealing with we in the West

584

00:29:36,357 --> 00:29:41,738

the effects of prosperity, the information

explosion, the consumer lifestyle.

585

00:29:41,738 --> 00:29:44,157

Right. We're all trying to work this out.

586

00:29:44,157 --> 00:29:46,242

I'm sure we all have growth areas in that.

587

00:29:46,242 --> 00:29:46,826

And so

588

00:29:48,036 --> 00:29:50,997

that that's another thing that I think

can help us

589

00:29:50,997 --> 00:29:55,919

to have compassion for addiction,

for people with addiction.

590

00:29:55,919 --> 00:29:56,544

Right.

591

00:29:56,544 --> 00:29:59,672

Is that we all struggle with

592

00:30:00,673 --> 00:30:03,676

medicating or distracting

in the wrong way.

593

00:30:04,385 --> 00:30:07,555

Again I feels like that

that was an important piece there as well

594

00:30:07,597 --> 00:30:11,434

because it's pretty easy

to look at someone who's addicted to

595

00:30:11,893 --> 00:30:15,146

whatever suffering

from some type of addiction and say oh

596

00:30:15,313 --> 00:30:19,067

why don't they just stop that

without realizing the hypocrisy of that

597

00:30:19,067 --> 00:30:24,572

when you know you yourself may be dealing

with a form of addiction in your own life

598

00:30:24,572 --> 00:30:28,117

that you hadn't even thought of,

but it's, you know, you actually have

599

00:30:28,326 --> 00:30:32,872

a slight addiction to mindlessly scrolling

social media, you know, endlessly

600

00:30:32,872 --> 00:30:37,418

or so, like, I mean, the data on that, by

the way, for America is is insane.

601

00:30:37,418 --> 00:30:42,131

Like how much time is spent mindlessly

scrolling social media, for example?

602

00:30:42,465 --> 00:30:45,385

And yet you may have that, but

603

00:30:45,385 --> 00:30:48,429

then point your finger at someone else,

you know, and say, oh, they're addicted.

604

00:30:49,889 --> 00:30:50,974

I guess that kind of comes back

605

00:30:50,974 --> 00:30:54,060

to one of the things we had been saying

previously is like, how do we be gracious?

606

00:30:54,227 --> 00:30:58,022

Like, and, well, I guess

humility would go right along with that.

607

00:30:58,189 --> 00:30:59,983

You know,

608

00:30:59,983 --> 00:31:02,235

Another thing is curiosity.

609

00:31:02,235 --> 00:31:05,405

So okay

how did this person get to where they are.

610

00:31:05,405 --> 00:31:08,116

They didn't wake up one day

and say I'm going to be addicted.

611

00:31:08,116 --> 00:31:11,119

I'm going to look at pornography

I want to drink.

612

00:31:11,327 --> 00:31:12,871

What's the story behind.

613

00:31:12,871 --> 00:31:16,499

And you know, not to use that

to make excuses for sinful behavior.

614

00:31:16,499 --> 00:31:20,295

But what's the story behind this person's

struggle?

615

00:31:21,588 --> 00:31:23,548

Can we ask more questions?

616

00:31:23,548 --> 00:31:26,551

And this would apply to any struggle,

right.

617

00:31:27,010 --> 00:31:30,013

Trauma, mental health, addiction.

618

00:31:30,638 --> 00:31:32,432

I think that's a really good point.

619

00:31:32,432 --> 00:31:33,391

Yeah.

620

00:31:33,391 --> 00:31:34,309

one of the things we got to really be

621

00:31:34,309 --> 00:31:38,313

careful about

is ideologies or fads or agendas that

622

00:31:39,522 --> 00:31:40,148

leave us

623

00:31:40,148 --> 00:31:43,401

feeling like, oh, I know what your problem

is, right?

624

00:31:44,110 --> 00:31:47,822

Your problem is you have a demon

or your problem is idols of

625

00:31:47,822 --> 00:31:49,657

the heart of your problem

is your childhood pain,

626

00:31:49,657 --> 00:31:51,993

or your problem

is an undisciplined lifestyle.

627

00:31:51,993 --> 00:31:54,495

Any of those things

potentially could be a factor.

628

00:31:54,495 --> 00:31:57,790

I'm not dismissing any of those

categories, but I'm just saying

629

00:31:58,708 --> 00:32:03,421

let's be more curious about people's

experience and not put people in boxes.

630

00:32:04,088 --> 00:32:08,092

it's so easy to put people in boxes.

631

00:32:08,426 --> 00:32:11,930

I guess that's I guess that's just

a human thing that we do to each other.

632

00:32:11,971 --> 00:32:13,848

I don't know when I kind of know where

633

00:32:13,848 --> 00:32:16,851

where we want to peg

somebody or something.

634

00:32:17,143 --> 00:32:17,644

Yeah.

635

00:32:17,644 --> 00:32:20,647

Yeah, well, it makes it easier for us.

636

00:32:21,272 --> 00:32:22,523

That's that's a good point.

637

00:32:22,523 --> 00:32:23,608

Yeah. Yeah.

638

00:32:23,608 --> 00:32:24,943

yeah.

639

00:32:24,943 --> 00:32:27,362

And, I mean, you have to have ways

of thinking about things.

640

00:32:27,362 --> 00:32:29,489

You have to have hooks to hang things on.

641

00:32:29,489 --> 00:32:32,075

We need to simplify our thoughts. And so

642

00:32:33,159 --> 00:32:35,244

certainly it's understandable.

643

00:32:35,244 --> 00:32:36,955

that that does make sense.

644

00:32:36,955 --> 00:32:38,373

Yeah.

645

00:32:38,373 --> 00:32:40,625

So to back it up a little bit.

646

00:32:40,625 --> 00:32:43,628

Addiction is kind of a bleak topic.

647

00:32:44,170 --> 00:32:46,297

And and you know.

648

00:32:46,297 --> 00:32:49,300

Yeah. And

649

00:32:49,509 --> 00:32:53,930

yeah we hear some things on,

on the recovery process and, and so forth.

650

00:32:54,055 --> 00:32:55,890

There's a lot more to this.

651

00:32:55,890 --> 00:33:00,395

There's obviously, an enormous amount

of work has been done in this sector.

652

00:33:00,436 --> 00:33:02,230

Which is which is good.

653

00:33:02,230 --> 00:33:06,401

But as we kind of pull back

and look at the whole package

654

00:33:06,401 --> 00:33:09,112

that we've went through in this,

in this podcast,

655

00:33:09,112 --> 00:33:11,239

what is something

you'd like to leave our audience with?

656

00:33:11,239 --> 00:33:14,325

What's maybe a piece of advice

or something you think would be helpful?

657

00:33:14,659 --> 00:33:15,451

Yeah.

658

00:33:15,451 --> 00:33:18,621

Some principles to keep

in mind as we go from here.

659

00:33:20,331 --> 00:33:21,207

Two things.

660

00:33:21,207 --> 00:33:24,210

One, people can change.

661

00:33:24,919 --> 00:33:27,672

People can change.

662

00:33:27,672 --> 00:33:30,049

They can change

because God has put incredible

663

00:33:30,049 --> 00:33:33,052

tools and resources into his creation.

664

00:33:33,261 --> 00:33:36,264

And two,

because of the power of his spirit.

665

00:33:37,015 --> 00:33:39,350

And that's what the gospel is all about.

666

00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:40,643

One of the questions I hear a lot is,

667

00:33:40,643 --> 00:33:43,646

or is it possible to change, for example,

pornography.

668

00:33:43,771 --> 00:33:45,690

Can you break a pornography habit?

669

00:33:45,690 --> 00:33:48,192

Yes, the answer is yes.

670

00:33:48,192 --> 00:33:49,944

So that's the first thing.

671

00:33:49,944 --> 00:33:52,447

The second thing is

672

00:33:52,447 --> 00:33:54,699

receive God's love,

673

00:33:54,699 --> 00:33:57,910

receive God's

compassion, receive God's acceptance.

674

00:33:57,910 --> 00:34:00,705

And sometimes it's a severe mercy.

675

00:34:00,705 --> 00:34:03,708

And sometimes there's God's chastisement

and all that.

676

00:34:04,125 --> 00:34:07,045

But people need to know deep down

677

00:34:07,045 --> 00:34:10,048

that they're loved by God.

678

00:34:10,089 --> 00:34:11,924

And people who hate themselves

679

00:34:11,924 --> 00:34:15,803

because of their addiction

find it so much harder to move forward.

680

00:34:16,971 --> 00:34:20,016

And the turning point that

I have seen again and again for people is

681

00:34:20,016 --> 00:34:23,686

when they can receive God's love,

even while they are still struggling.

682

00:34:24,437 --> 00:34:27,440

Those are the ones who so often begin

to move forward.

683

00:34:28,566 --> 00:34:32,195

Don't wait

till you've conquered your addiction

684

00:34:32,195 --> 00:34:35,198

to let God love on you.

685

00:34:35,990 --> 00:34:38,993

I think that is.

686

00:34:39,535 --> 00:34:42,663

That is a powerful piece to end

687

00:34:43,706 --> 00:34:45,625

this episode with that.

688

00:34:45,625 --> 00:34:53,257

Wow, you've shared a lot of really

interesting and helpful pieces today.

689

00:34:53,257 --> 00:34:58,179

And yeah, just thank you for the work

that you've done in this area

690

00:34:58,179 --> 00:35:01,182

and reminding us

that it is possible to change.

691

00:35:01,265 --> 00:35:05,853

And, there are ways that we can help

and yeah,

692

00:35:06,979 --> 00:35:08,439

you're giving us a lot to think about.

693

00:35:08,439 --> 00:35:12,068

So I appreciate you taking the time

today, Michael, to come and share with us.

694

00:35:13,027 --> 00:35:14,278

It's good to be here.

695

00:35:15,196 --> 00:35:17,573

Thanks for listening to this episode.

696

00:35:17,573 --> 00:35:20,409

If you found this interesting,

you should check out the other interview

697

00:35:20,409 --> 00:35:22,036

we did with Michael a few years back.

698

00:35:22,036 --> 00:35:24,539

And you can find that

linked in the description down below.

699

00:35:24,539 --> 00:35:27,917

We also regularly publish essays

by Anabaptist thinkers,

700

00:35:27,917 --> 00:35:30,920

which you can find on our website

or has its own podcast.

701

00:35:31,337 --> 00:35:34,549

Consider leaving a like and a review

as it helps more people

702

00:35:34,549 --> 00:35:37,552

find what we're doing here

at Anabaptist Perspectives.

703

00:35:37,593 --> 00:35:40,555

Thanks again for listening,

and we'll see you in the next episode.