One of the nicest people in the world, Pamela Slim. And

if you've been in the world of vlogs and social media for any

amount of time, surely you know Pamela. She is an award winning

author, coach, speaker, and has kind of an interesting story.

And her book is called Body of Work, and it gives sort of a

fresh perspective on the skills required in the new world of

work, from both corporate to nonprofit to small business to

salespeople to all the above. Pamela, thanks for being on the show.

Well, thank you so much for having me. I am

delighted to be here.

So you say that the quote, unquote world of work is no

longer predictable.

Absolutely. I know salespeople, of all people in

the world know this, because often sales folks are the ones

that are right there, you know, talking to customers and working

on a deal for a long time and having it fall through at the

last minute, because, you know, your key contact gets laid off

or redeployed somewhere else. And I I've been for about the

past 20 years working, working in the world of business, always

on the human side. And as early as the 90s, I was noticing

trends as we turned to see more waves of layoffs and

reorganizations. But I think things really started to pick up

steam, especially in 2008 when we all experienced a huge

economic catastrophe, that that really rallied around the globe.

And what was interesting to me, as somebody who has worked in

and studied the world of work for so long, is it felt like

there was something that kind of permanently etched reality in

all of our minds, which said even huge institutions that we

thought would never fail can fail, and that which we consider

to be even a solid, respectable career is not really anything

that we can count on. So there's a part of the message, I think,

that is just acknowledging the reality. I've always been a very

pragmatic optimist, where I'd like to look at the reality and

say truly, as individual business owners, we can't count

on the market staying the same, as we've seen through a number

of different economic downturns. As corporate employees, we can't

count on our organization to stay the same, or our customer

base or positions, but when we know that, then we can do

specific things to actually make ourselves indispensable and

highly employable, whether we're redeployed within our own

organizations when change does happen, or to also be a person

if you do end up being laid off, that you're highly flexible and

you can quickly get another job or have other kinds of business

opportunities. And I always say it's by force or by choice. I've

being a somebody who's been a coach for a long time. I work

with a lot of people who are choosing to make a career

transition or choosing to start a business, or to, you know,

move up in an organization. But I think given the, you know, the

the unstable nature of the economy and of organizations,

more and more people will have that path, and so we really do

need a new way of looking at our careers. That was really the

driving force behind writing body of work is I found I've

worked in just about every work mode you can imagine. I've been

in the nonprofit sector. I've, you know, run a nonprofit as a

volunteer. I worked in corporate I've been an entrepreneur, I've

been a stay at home mom, and, you know, I find that really the

way that we can actually, you know, create a strong sense of

always being employable is by the narrative that we tell. And

if we're looking at the general narrative, which is, have you

been a stable person, which means that you've been in one

organization for a long time now? Again, even if you want to

do that, it's not necessarily possible, so you need to

constantly be retelling the story about who you are and what

your strengths are and what valuable things that you've

contributed. The really good side to this equation is as one

side of the new world of work is instability, the other side is

an amazing opportunity that we have for doing all kinds of

different work and on the personal branding side, we have

so many tools now that allow us to tell our stories in

compelling ways, through things like blogs or social media, our

own websites, I think we have a lot more capacity to create a

cohesive story about ourselves than we ever did in the past.

Salespeople are kind of classically known for switching

companies. What is your opinion on that? Do you think it's

negative to be switching all the time?

Yeah, I think there's two things. The first

is, for my definition of body of work, it's really as you look at

the course of your life, what are all the things that you

really want to create, contribute, affect and impact?

That's the one decision that. Would make is really what is

that body of work that you want to create based on things that

are really important to you, using your skills and your

strengths and so with that as a definition, I don't just mean

concrete things, like helping to build organizations through

sales, which is a hugely important skill set, which

salespeople have, but it's also in what are the intangible ways

in which you affect the world? How are you as a parent, as a

community member, as a spouse, you know, what are you really

contributing? What's your emotional wake that you leave as

you really walk through the world? And is it something that

you feel proud of and that you really leave as a legacy? So

when you think about it from that perspective, to move around

or not move around to me, it's really addressed by why. And

sometimes you can, you can be pursuing what seems to be the

next great opportunity. I really was fortunate. I spent about

three years with a client who had a sales training business.

I've worked with hundreds and hundreds of salespeople who I

think happened to me some of the most like interesting, flexible,

positive people. You know, I really like it. I love the skill

set. I love the fact that the skill set is really flexible,

and that you do have to get enthusiastic and care about what

you're doing, really infuse yourself in in a culture, in a

company, in order to be able to really sell effectively. And so

it is the kind of skill set of any I think that are out there

that can be, you know, really effective to be moving in

different places. But my question would be, are you just

jumping to what seems to be the next great, great opportunity

because of maybe a financial outcome, or are you conscious

about what it is that you want to create? So for example, you

might be somebody who works in tech who gets really excited

about helping early stage entrepreneurs create a solid

foundation for their business and to get sales moving in the

early stage. So in that case, maybe you're just working for an

organization to get them up to that stage, develop the capacity

of the internal folks to sell more effectively and hire other

people, and then you're ready to go on to the next challenge, and

especially if you would tie that particular technology to one

that you're passionate about, right? The same thing could be

true where you might be selling a service that you're really

passionate about, some kind of health related service or

artistic pursuit. I think that's the beautiful thing. Is, with a

sales, you know, a selling skill set, then you can really learn

how to sell in many different industries to many different

people, but from an individual career perspective, I would say,

are you giving yourself enough time in each role to really be

building that which you want to build? And there's always, you

always have the capacity, I think, to tell a compelling

story. But the reality is, you know in terms of how you might

sell yourself to somebody, or you might explain your history

and how it is that you've moved through many different

positions. I think the important thing to remember is that your

work really does speak for you. So if you truly have had

integrity in your roles, you've done a great job, you've

developed really powerful relationships, and you move on.

That's the kind of enduring legacy that your work really

speaks for and that can't be spun. That's what other people

are going to be talking about. You know, when, when they talk

about you, and it's in today's job environment, I think that is

how people get jobs. Is based on your reputation of what you've

actually built and done.

Is it fair to say that, you know, like body of work is

it's kind it's almost like personal branding?

That is exactly right. I mean, the first piece

is, what actually are you creating, right? What? How are

you being conscious about that work that you actually want to

do in the world? What organizations do you want to

support? You know? What? What problems do you want to solve?

And then you do that through your skills and strengths. But

yes, the way that you help people understand who you are

and what you do is, by the story you tell. It is the meta skill

of the 21st century, which, by the way, has always been the

meta skill, right? Storytelling is the way that that we all, we

all relate to each other, and we have since the very, you know,

early days. And the good thing is, that's actually what good

salespeople understand, right? But I think there's two parts to

the story. There's, what is the story you're telling yourself?

Are you saying, oh my gosh, you know, my work history sounds

really sketchy. I'm desperate. I need to get a job, oh my gosh,

in which case it's hard then to create a compelling, authentic

story to somebody else, right? Versus where you say, I, you

know, I may not have had a perfect past. Everybody has

challenges, you know, in your life and your work, but this is

the meaning that I've really gotten from it, and these are

the kinds of projects that I've really thought about that I want

to contribute to. And here's why my specific skills fit. And so

yes, that is personal branding. I think the thing I want to

underline is it's really based on deep integrity with yourself

and with the work that you want to do, and then that just has

natural positive impacts in terms of the opportunities that

open up for you. And I think people buy for different

reasons. We're wired a little bit differently. Some folks,

very much make decisions based on personal relationships and

how they feel if they trust somebody. A lot of other folks.

Folks will make a decision that is based on all kinds of

research and data or, you know, individual and institutional

decisions, but I think a huge overriding factor is the kind of

relationship and trust that you build and in organizations. I've

seen this so much when I used to consult in organizations,

they're going through as much change in tumultuousness as the

outside market. And it's amazing what can happen if you have a

new manager come in, or a VP, or a change in business strategy,

you have to sell yourself all over again, you know, sometimes,

sometimes the same people, when everybody's looking like, wait a

minute, you know, our whole go to market strategy changed. And

therefore, you know, does Pam really have what it takes? Can I

know she's been really successful in this market, but

you know, how can she really compete in this other kind of

market? Does she have the skills to do it if you've been

conscious about it, not just the story you're telling, but also

relationships that you're building, ways that you're

weaving in other kinds of activities? You know, I think a

lot of folks forget that every single part of your life is

really part of part of your body of work, so sometimes

significant activities that you do outside, people may not be

aware of the fact that you're a huge volunteer, you know, you're

a member of your community, or you're an amazing parent, and

you, you know, have a child with special needs, and you put in,

like, lots of extra effort and energy. All those kinds of

things are really an important part of the story that you can

tell, and it's really about solidifying confidence and

really helping to go through a transition in a positive way. I

was working on a consulting project, and I was laughing with

my client. We had new folks come in that were hired, and even

though, kind of, the senior person in the project was one

who I had great trust with, he really wanted to defer to folks

who were coming in on the project to make sure that, you

know, they related to me. And we were laughing, because he's

like, Oh, I saw how you started to work, you know, how you

started you were sending emails and, you know, having

conversations with them, and introducing yourself in a way so

that they really knew who you were. And he was laughing

because he knows me, and he knows that that's just part of

what you have to do is you're going through a transition. You

can't rely on your past performance, you can't rely on

relationships that you've had, because all of those can change,

and especially if business strategy changes.

In the book, you have this great line you say, the quality

of your life in business is directly related to the quality

of your stories.

Yeah, I really believe it passionately, because

being so tuned into, you know, to the workplace, and especially

folks that might be out of work or looking for new

opportunities, it's easy sometimes to look at somebody

who gets an opportunity and say, oh, man, you know, that wasn't

fair. You know, that person's lucky, or they had this

background, or come from this place, and therefore they got

the job. And what I always know, because I've just watched it for

so long and coach so many people around it is somebody who

actually got the opportunity, took the time to really research

and understand what were the needs of that person, who they

were wanting to make a sale to right kind of, again, an

internal sale for an opportunity. And it's funny,

it's talk about, you know, when you talk about branding, can be

a touching point when you talk about selling, you know, if you

start to talk about things like parenting or, you know, getting

a spouse, you know, some of the underlying skills of using the

good light side of the Force skills that we have right are

about deeply understanding and connecting with somebody feeling

good enough about yourself. When you meet that person who you're

just think is wonderful, who would be a great life partner.

You don't really knock yourself, you know, out of the running by

saying, oh my gosh, but you know, I'm not that good a

person, and why would they ever date me? And I'm not good

enough. I'm not smart enough. You know, people don't like me.

That's that internal story sometimes that becomes a driving

narrative for our life, and it ends up really leaking out into

also how it is that we tell a story about ourselves moving

forward. And so I just want to clarify again, by story, I don't

mean making up things to just bamboozle everybody. It's

actually telling a clear, compelling story that you deeply

believe about yourself, but that's based on your reflection

about that work in the world that you want to do, and based

on also about being the kind of person that you want to be in

the world. You know, what kind of parent do you want to be?

What are the stories that you tell your kids? What are the

stories that you tell your kids about what work is? I'm always

fascinated by people who spend all their time when they get

home saying how terrible it is, and the office was horrible and

the commute was bad. And I'm thinking, man, what kind of a

story are your kids going to have about what working means?

How excited are they going to be to be joining the world of work?

If that's what you hear, I was blessed that I had a dad who's

still at 79 years old as a passionate photographer. Every

time I heard him talk about work, it was with excitement for

his craft, and I'm so thankful to him for telling that kind of

story about work, because it showed me that you can love what

you do, and so I've always pursued work that really lit me up.

Yeah, I mean, that's those are, those are powerful

questions to think of as powerful. How do we become

better storytellers?

I think one it, one thing it could do is, is to read

and whatever genre of books that you enjoy, if it's fiction or

even non. Fiction, pay attention to what people are actually

doing as they're narrating, creating a great story. The

ultimate resource for storytelling, I think, is Nancy

Duarte book Resonate, fantastic book as a resource for really

understanding. How can you tell a compelling story when you're

trying to get somebody to change, which is what you do in

a selling in a sales environment, right? And Nancy

studied all kinds of the great speeches of all time, and really

noted through extensive research about a certain pattern and a

structure to a story that can be very effective and persuasive.

So I think there's things like that where you can, you know,

get resources like that, I find the arts are one that also

really contribute to you getting excited about a great story. So

if you can go to a great play, or, you know, see a really

wonderful movie, you start to pay attention to, you know, how

did that grab me? And why was that exciting? Or, Why did I get

scared at that moment, you know, and, and those, I think, can be

things that are that are really useful, again, from a sales

perspective, I think that is a skill that so many folks need to

have. And really one of the fundamental underlying skills, I

think, of great storytelling, is where you really do think about

who your audience is, and really make sure that you spend a lot

of time understanding what is the nature of your organization

that you're selling into. What are the personal things that are

really driving folks who you're having conversations with, so

that when you choose what it is that you want to talk to them

about, or present to them, or give certain examples, but it's

very related to what their actual experience is, and I

think that's something that can only strengthen what it is you

do on the sales side.

I love it. Well, Pamela, thank you so much. This has just

been awesome. And thank you for being on the show.

Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.