Welcome to the Global Medical Device Podcast, where today's brightest minds in the medical device industry go to get their most useful and actionable insider knowledge, direct from.

Some of the world's leading medical device experts and companies.

Hey, everyone.

Welcome back to the Global Medical Device Podcast.

My name is Etie Nichols.

I'm the host for today's episode.

Today I want to talk about a culture of quality and utilizing coaching, whether it's from the top down or bottom up, how you can build that culture of quality.

And with us today to talk about that is this is Leslie Worthington.

She's a certified executive coach with a uniquely powerful blend of credentials.

She has 20 plus years in quality and regulatory affairs and degrees in both psychology and law, which I'm particularly interested in both.

Thousands of hours coaching professionals, navigating high stakes environments because, let's face it, your work is a high stakes environment.

She helps smart, capable leaders, especially in qara roles, communicate clearly, lead with confidence, and finally be heard the way they intend.

With Leslie, it's not more.

It's not about more information.

It's about doing the work, the things that actually make a difference.

So, and whether that's through practical personalized coaching, she helps medical device professionals build influence, recover from burnout, which we've seen so much recently.

See the things they're doing that hold them back even, or maybe I should say especially, when they can't quite put their finger on it.

So if you've ever walked away from a meeting wondering, why didn't that turn out or land the way I wanted to, hopefully this conversation is for you.

Leslie, thank you so much for joining us today.

How are you doing?

I'm good, thank you.

When you're introducing me, I'm like, wait, that's me.

Okay, what if, if anybody is not following you on LinkedIn, I highly recommend it.

Because, you know, it's funny internally, sometimes the question comes up, is this culture of quality really something that, you know, that we should be hitting on?

Maybe.

From a marketing standpoint, obviously culture of quality is something I think most of us understand is important.

But one thing I'll mention is even the FDA uses that phrase in the preamble for the qmsr.

There's a culture of quality expectation and so on.

So I just, I thought I'd throw that out there as we kind of kick this conversation off.

Yeah, it's kind of becoming more sort of hot topic, mainstream ish.

And I think maybe, maybe people are realizing that it's actually tied to the business's success.

So I think once they clue into that, then it's like, yeah, yeah, that's actually the shortcut to a good business is to have this.

This culture, you know.

Why do you think it's funny?

Because intuitively, when we sit down, or maybe I should say intellectually, if we sit down and think through it, it makes sense that it could be a competitive edge to have a culture of quality and you're always 1% better or whatever the case may be.

Why do you think so many skilled professionals, especially in whether it's quality regulatory in the medical device world, why do you think they struggle to be heard or taken seriously or have that kind of bad pr?

A couple of reasons.

Generally, they're not the boss of the people they're trying to boss around.

So that is very tricky dynamics a lot of the time.

So that is a bit of a problem.

And many, I think, default because they're not the boss of the people they're bossing around.

They have to somehow make themselves credible so that people will listen to them.

And so this is their thinking anyway.

And so they default to being maybe clear and correct and probably a little bit too direct without noticing or caring possibly how it's all being received.

They're just on this mission to make sure everyone understands what they need to understand.

So they're focused so much on making sure their company stays out of trouble.

They haven't really realized that their relationships are actually the best way to.

To make sure their stump.

Their company stays out of trouble.

So they're kind of not even thinking about the relationship part.

Can you give me an example of that direct way of speaking that is a negative?

Because oftentimes we talk, oh, be more direct.

But it sounds like that could be a negative in this situation.

Can you.

Well, there's so much conflicting.

Yeah, there's so much conflicting advice out there.

And there's like little hacks and like, don't, you know, don't say this.

You sound weak.

And don't say.

It's like, well, basically anything that you say that makes someone feel like they're being bossed around is too direct.

So it's about shifting your mind.

It's not about really what you say.

It's about how will what I say be received.

That's what we're thinking about.

And so I can't give you exact words because it depends on the other person.

Like, I have three kids and I can't talk to them the same way.

My middle child will, like, overreact if I say, time for school.

You know, it's like, so you have to really know who you're talking to to understand what' to be received directly.

And what's going to be like, oh, yeah, okay, sure, no problem, I'm on it.

It depends who you're dealing with.

And I'd like to just kind of expand the aperture of this conversation because we talk about quality and regulatory.

I know that's who you focus.

My background is more project management.

But it's the same situation where you may not have a direct.

The, the direct reports, they all dotted line report to your project.

And you're like, how do I really get them to move and do things?

So it's really applicable to so many in this situation.

Yeah, you've got to get people to buy in.

Right.

Somehow you've got to get people to buy in.

And once we start talking about influence and persuasion and stuff, then it gets like, people are like, oh, that's too salesy and that's too aggressive and that's too whatever.

But really the ultimate thing we're aiming for is to get people to buy in.

And I think what happens is that we make the mistake of thinking that people buy in because they understand something really well.

We've done such a stellar job of explaining this that there's no possible way they can't buy in.

And maybe we have done a good job of explaining it.

We've been clear, we know what we're talking about.

We even use plain language, no buzzwords.

It's great.

But buy in isn't about whether people understand, it's about whether people feel understood.

Yeah.

And that's the part we're not doing.

And how do you make people feel understood?

You gotta listen to them, you gotta have relationships with them.

And so, you know, it's a little bit counterintuitive, I guess, because you think.

But, but I've explained it so well.

How could they not see the sense of this?

But that's not what it is.

Yeah, right.

And there's always layers to these things.

Because I'm gonna say something that you're gonna say, well, yeah, of course, but when you.

When they have to be understood, so they have to have been listened to, but they also have to have some kind of proof that understand.

And maybe we can get into that at some point too.

And that seems like, okay, circular here, but I understand you, Leslie, But I'm going to repeat this back to you so that, you know, I understood you as well.

That's exactly it.

Like people.

Because people insist that.

Yeah, no, no, no, they understood.

For sure they understood.

I'm like, that's super.

Do they know that.

That you know exactly what you said?

Do they know that you understood and do you know that they understood?

Like, where's the proof of that?

Because that has to be there, whether it's just a huh, okay, or paraphrasing something back.

Like, think of.

Of with your partner in life, right?

And you're talking to them and you're like, he is not listening to me.

Right?

And you're like, you're not listening.

You never listen to me.

And he goes, yeah, yeah.

Yes, I am.

Yes, I am.

I'm like, oh, yeah, you are.

What did I say then?

So if they can say what we just said, that's the proof to us that, that they were listening.

And so, okay, let's take that into work.

It's like, well, what do we have to do?

We have to paraphrase back to people what they said in order for them to really feel that we understood them.

So we have to kind of go beyond that, just nodding and start paraphrasing things back.

And it feels like primary school a little bit, but we need that.

Like, we're all, we're all the same.

We're all.

We just want to be heard and appreciated and understood.

And we just.

If we can just remember that, everything's going to be easy.

Right?

Yeah.

I've actually seen where someone may voice an idea or something that they would like to happen, and it's clear that they've been understood.

So someone recognizes and say, yeah, that's a really good idea for X, Y, Z. I can totally see that producing this outcome.

But for these other reasons, we've decided not to do that.

And so that person feels validated, they walk away saying, okay, this is a great plan, but we didn't even.

We didn't even do your idea and you're backing the plan.

That's it.

Like, think about, like with kids, right?

They.

If you just let them have their say, if you let anybody have their say, whether you go with their plan or not, they just feel better about it and they'll more likely go along with it with a little less kicking and screaming.

Okay, I could spend a lot of time on this because listening is so important, but I. I'm sure there are things that we're doing to kind of cut ourselves off at the ankles.

I hate that.

Maybe hopefully nobody's a visual thinker out there.

What are the hidden things that we do to just kind of undermine how we're Coming across, it seems like we do everything right.

Yeah.

So this is just a human, human problems because we have egos.

So all of this, it's not like role specific.

It's not just quality.

People that have this, have these problems.

But the biggest problem really is that we're failing to think of the other person.

That's it.

Right.

Our egos are just in the way.

We're not thinking about what matters to them and we're only charging forth with what matters to us.

And we have to sell what matters to us from the angle or lens of what matters to them.

You know, we just think, oh, we have to do this, it's the law.

Or that's what the standard says.

When the average person probably doesn't even know what a standard is.

Right.

So it's like, so then we end up using too much jargon and we assume this is a big problem.

We assume people know more than they do.

And that's why this listening can really help.

And learning to ask better questions, to kind of assess people's knowledge, but not in a interrogation sort of way, just in a, you know, curious, what does this person know?

I think a really common problem quality people have is over explaining things, saying too much, using big fat words in an effort.

Again, I said this earlier in an effort to sort of prove their credibility.

Like, I know what I'm talking about, trust me.

Let's just do this, Come on.

Right.

Like that's the feel they're trying to go for.

But when people don't understand or they find you confusing because of the words you used, it's hard to build trust.

Like, how much do you trust someone who's a little bit confusing?

You don't.

And so if we come across as confusing, it's really hard to get that trust being built up.

Another common problem, because we're almost apologetic sometimes because we're always asking people to do stuff that we know they probably don't want to do.

So then sometimes we might come across like we sort of soften things a little too much and then make it a little bit unclear.

Especially if we're dealing with different languages.

We might say, you know, would you mind?

Would it be too much trouble if you did this?

And in another language that might, they might not realize that you're actually asking them to do something or telling them to do something.

And so the softer we get sometimes the more can unclear it is in a way.

And so it's a.

You're constantly trying to find this balance.

Too direct, too soft.

I Gotta be nice.

I can't be pushy, you know, and so, and that, and that, you know, you have to depend a lot on the feedback you're getting from the person.

Have they just done something that makes me think, oh, oh, across the line, they're closing down a little bit or they're irritated now.

So you can't just be there with your broadcast, you know, megaphone.

You gotta be there listening.

Yeah, I.

So there's a couple things that my mind goes to.

I guess as you're talking, I'm thinking about how we can actually understand people.

And it, the.

There's a phrase that comes to mind that is it doesn't matter what people think of you.

What matters.

What is what you think they think of you.

Yeah.

So it's, it's.

I don't actually know what you are thinking right now.

I know what.

Or I have an idea of what you might be thinking about.

So how do we actually understand?

And I actually have an idea.

I'm going to let you answer that first because I have so many other questions too.

So your question is, how do we help?

How do we try to understand what they are thinking?

How are we sure that we are on the right track with what we think that they.

Yeah.

So this is like what I just did now, asking you to like, trying to get clarity of like, what exactly are you asking right now?

Am I right about my understanding of what you're asking?

And that's what you do in real life.

You.

You ask questions to sort of assess.

Have they understood?

I can't even think of a.

Well, that, that example that we just played out is a good example.

Right.

It's just like you just ask for.

And the problem is, the problem is I trust you.

You trust me.

This is a casual thing.

It's easy to ask that question.

I don't feel like anything bad's going to happen.

You're not going to fire me.

You don't, you know, nothing.

You're not going to feel insulted.

Probably.

But in, in real life, we take a chance if there's not some trust there, if there's not.

P.S.

safety.

We sometimes just button up.

We feel like we can't ask certain people because they might perceive my question as questioning as opposed to just curiosity.

There's two things I think of.

One is we don't want to say I don't know.

But maybe one, maybe a layer deeper of that would be.

I don't think I understand what you just said.

And that makes, you know, I, I think that Makes me feel dumb.

But in reality what's amazing is they're like, oh wow.

He's actually pretty self aware to say that.

Yeah, yeah.

Like it's like, am I going to be insulting this person or it.

Yeah, it is really tricky and, but it's not as tricky if there's trust because then you always get the benefit of the doubt where there's trust.

And you, you know, if there's trust, the person probably thinks you're moderately bright and knows what you know and you're just asking, you know, asking a normal question for clarity purposes.

And I think, I don't know where this fear of questions.

There's just a massive fear of asking questions.

Yeah, I think it's, it goes way, way back to like our childhoods and things like that.

I have a friend who is just do not, she does not want to ask questions.

She, she, if you ask her a question, it, she is on the defensive right away.

Even if it's like, what time are you coming?

Like, it's like every question is, is feels like an attack of some kind and I don't know where it comes from.

Presumably her, her background.

She was, I guess grew up in a household where it was not okay to ask questions.

That was seen as disrespectful somehow or questioning authority or whatever.

And so there's the problem of how to ask questions.

But then a lot of us also have problems of answering questions without like, we just feel like, are we being questioned right now?

We start getting all shaky about it.

So to me to avoid all of that nonsense is to just like work on the relationship bit and then it's easy to ask and answer questions.

At Greenlight Guru, we have a team of what we call medical device gurus.

And it's kind of a terrifying job at first because you have to sit in front of a customer, particularly the ones who are not getting the software, not understanding what's going on and you have to answer all their questions and they could be a little.

Yeah, most of our customers are very nice, but it's just, you know, you don't know everything.

So you get in there, it's a little bit scary.

So I actually wrote a paper about how to get over this fear and I came up with this line that was, what's the opposite of love?

Is it hate?

I mean, personally, I think the opposite of love is indifference.

What's the opposite of fear?

Is it courage?

Well, no, you can't have courage without fear.

I think the opposite of fear is curiosity.

And I Could be wrong about it, but it's good for the, it's good for the paper.

So if you're scared of something, just get curious.

Why, what am I not understanding?

What is the, what is going on here?

I, I, that's what I recommend to ours internally.

I was curious what kind of bounce.

No, and, and a lot of it too, is you have to take the responsibility of helping people ask questions.

Because sometimes, like, so if you ask a question, if, if you are asked a question and you're like, oh, my God, I have no idea, it might not be you.

It might be that the question was not a good question and you're not even sure exactly what they're asking.

So part of good communication and part of the whole question thing is like, helping them ask a better question.

So they ask a question, and you're like, I don't even know where to start.

So then you ask them a question, oh, are you asking about this or this?

And you try and get them to, you know, be clearer.

Because a lot of the times, especially if it's someone who doesn't know, like, if they're talking to your green light guru gurus and they know nothing, they might not even know the right words to use for their question.

Yeah, yeah.

It's sad that so much of joining a new industry is the lingo.

And I know you're a big proponent of not using jargon.

My dad actually told me we're nickels.

You know, don't use a $5 word when a nickel word.

Yes.

Yeah, that's great, dad.

Anyways, but I'm curious, how come, how come this is such a problem?

These are professionals who are well trained.

I assume that we go through.

Are there limits to traditional training or why don't these leadership courses and the different things that we go through lead to those changes that we would expect?

Any, Any thoughts there?

Well, that's a couple, couple parts to that question, though.

So the, so the, I think, I think a lot of times we.

Oh, I've lost my train of thought.

You're gonna have to pause this.

Okay, so you asked first about.

Yeah.

The limits of traditional training or why.

Well, maybe we back up a little bit.

I wanted to address something first before that one.

So something you brought up.

Think about using a big word or jargon.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

I remember Curse of Knowledge.

And so also that kind of interchange that we just had.

So leave it in maybe that kind of interchange.

Most people would be like, oh, my God, oh, my God, I sound like an idiot.

Right.

It's like, I lost my train of thought because you said a couple of things and I was like, oh, what should I say first?

So I was thinking it through, then I lost my chain.

And that's normal.

And so we have to normalize, like, being human and sort of take the edge off, like, being perfect and being so professional.

And I think we are too uptight most of the time to have a natural thing like that.

So Curse of knowledge is one of the reasons why we screw up.

Because what is so obvious to us, we forget when we didn't know it.

And we think everybody.

Doesn't everybody know what a Kappa is?

483.

I mean, don't we all know that?

Like, isn't that common knowledge?

Right.

And so that's part of it.

We don't think.

And again, this goes back to not thinking of the.

Of the listener.

We're not thinking, oh, why would this person know that term?

They probably wouldn't know that term.

So maybe I shouldn't use it.

But.

Okay.

Second part of your question about the limits of training, traditional training.

I don't think we should blame the courses and the training because there's a lot of good information out there.

But you don't learn from information.

Right?

That's the problem.

You learn from action.

And most courses are about information, giving information.

And then the learner doesn't really go beyond that.

Passive, kind of just absorbing the information.

They don't put it into play.

Traditional training isn't really thinking about habits, internal narratives.

It's not thinking about emotions and relational things.

And it doesn't.

It doesn't go beyond just almost like hacks in a way.

Right.

It's just like, here's what you should say to sound softer or nicer.

Here's how you can do this.

Different frameworks for conversations or whatever.

It's just not personalized enough.

And our communication challenges are very personal and very specific.

We want Bob to hit his deadlines.

We want Susan to do what we want Susan to do.

The operations guy pretends to listen, and then he does what he wants to do anyway.

How do I deal with this?

And no one tells me until a small problem becomes a massive problem.

I don't want to sound too bossy.

I think I'm doing this weird thing because I have a bit of imposter syndrome.

You're not going to find any of that in a course.

Yeah.

You're going to find like, let me get you ready for your big TED Talk.

Let's.

Let's show you what, how slides should look.

Right.

It's just the, the, the domain, I guess, of communication and soft skills is just so massive that all people can do with course design is just pick something small and just address that little thing.

Yeah.

And so that's, I think, the limit.

The limit.

One of the things you mentioned, you, you mentioned that everybody has kind of a specific thing that maybe, you know.

Well, you mentioned several.

Bob, you know, doesn't, he pretends to listen, doesn't actually do it.

And I think, I think we may have talked about this phrase last time we were together, but it, for some reason it brought up the phrase common sense isn't so common anymore.

And I don't try to, I don't make people feel bad about that because another phrase that I feel like is appended to it that was really helpful is common sense isn't so common because we don't all have a common background.

And that's helpful to, to keep in mind.

We don't necessarily.

For.

You were talking about the nomenclature and the jargon.

In some cases it can be fun to use that, but it's not if the people don't understand what you're talking about.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I remember being lectured once by someone saying, you know, jargon's real words.

You know, I'm like, yes, yes, I do know.

I've never said it's not.

And yeah, sometimes we should because it's the perfect shorthand with people who know it.

Right.

That's why it exists.

And so what?

Yeah.

When you're in your little world of quality people, do your quality speak.

Go to.

Go, go for it.

That's what it's for.

But then know who you're talking to and know like, ah, I'm now leaving that world and I now need to speak like a human.

And there is one, you know, common language for everyone.

And it's just plain language.

Like just use everyday words and keep short sentences and you know, and that works.

And I think it's even more important now because our, our working is so global and there, there are so many people that we're working with who do not speak English as their first language.

And so the plain language again becomes the, the, the default language that is understood by all.

So there's no, there's no downside.

I think there's been research that even like genius level people prefer plain language because it's easier, it makes you work less and humans are lazy.

So.

Yeah, well, and I know you do some coaching and that's that's one of the big things that you do.

What does it actually look like in practice?

What's the difference in what we kind of talked about and what you're proposing?

Well, somebody typically comes with a specific problem.

Sometimes people come to me and they go, oh, I just want to communicate better.

And I might.

Okay, so the first bit of that kind of client is like, okay, how has this showed up?

What made you come here?

Because, because there's always, there's always a symptom of this problem.

And so what, what was the symptom in this case?

And so anyway, they come, they come with a specific problem most of the time.

And it might be like, I've got the high stakes conversation coming up with the cfo.

I'm trying to get money for a fancy eqms, let's say, and it's a hard sell and I need to be ready.

So it's like really working towards a specific goal like that.

So the coaching begins.

And then for that scenario like that, the coaching is basically helping people think.

That's what coaching is.

You're helping people think.

And through that process, they see their blind spots, they magically solve most of their own problems.

It's more like a partnership.

I ask questions, they think stuff through.

Sometimes I give advice.

But once you start giving advice, you're no longer coaching.

You're giving advice.

Right.

Coaching is just.

It's just you arrive empty as the coach and you see what arrives and then you think together, essentially.

But people do want advice from time to time.

So I'm like the hybrid person who.

I will give advice, but I make them work at it.

Only when they start, I'm like, okay, all right.

I'm not going to hide the answers in my pocket, but you know, I want them.

Because most of the time I'm all about empowering people.

And most of the time people have the answers.

Because what I sometimes do, and this is tricky and nasty, probably I give advice when they are begging me, but I give advice I know they won't like.

And that makes them go, no.

But that made me think of this, right?

Because you could tell someone exactly what to do and they won't like that as much as they like coming to the exact same thing all by themselves.

That's again, just how humans work.

So in the case of coaching somebody through an upcoming important meeting like that.

So then it would be helping them get clarity on, like, what specifically they need out of that conversation.

Because a lot of times it's too.

They're like, well, I just need money for the EQMs.

It's like, okay, well, let's get specific.

And.

And where's your hard lines?

Where can you.

Where do you have wiggle room?

And just think it's.

It's basically, I'm going to say common sense again.

Like, it's not rocket science.

It's helping people think.

The problem is we don't take the time to do that anymore.

Yeah.

And so really, like, in the olden days, you probably could just get coached at your kitchen table during having conversations.

But now, like, people come to me.

My regular people come to me every other week, typically.

And that's usually in that two week period.

The only time work or regular home life that they are listened to.

Ooh.

Yeah.

Which is sad, but true when you think about, like, that's the world we're in now.

And so just that moment to pause and think and get clarity, that's essentially all I'm doing.

So it's, you know, but when people get insights, sometimes it happens in the session and sometimes it doesn't.

It happens outside of the session.

Like three days later they go, oh, this is what, this is what we were talking about.

Okay, I get it now.

So.

So it's not like this, like, wow.

Moments that happen.

It's just a typical average conversation.

But just helping people think through and consider options.

Yeah.

Because a lot of times people just.

They're stuck in their little box and it's hard for them to think of options and possibilities.

So I consider myself a good writer and.

Or a writer.

I should just say a writer.

I consider myself a writer and I write a lot.

And that has been one of the biggest tools for me to help solidify my thinking.

I use that phrase sometimes.

I don't even know who I'm borrowing this from.

But I know what I think because I write.

I don't know what I write and I don't know what I think until I write.

And there's something that I want to ask you about, and that is maybe somebody can't use coaching or directly with you or someone else.

Are there things they can do?

And I want to use.

I want to ask you about this because I.

So I. I have someone new who's starting to work for me.

So I thought I need to write my.

About me and my how to work with Etienne document.

I have a document that is super old.

I'm like, all right, I'm gonna go write it.

And I went to AI.

This is my confession time.

I'm like, I will write it for me.

And I looked at him like, man, no, that's terrible.

I'm gonna do.

I'm just blank slate, do it myself.

And it's very.

When I'm actually slowly the, the rusty wheels are turning and I'm like, oh, that is kind of how I do things this way and that way as I write it out versus just having AI tell me what I should think about myself.

What are your thoughts?

That was a lot.

I think if everybody, I think if everybody started picking up a pen and grabbing a notebook, then coaches wouldn't even be needed.

Right.

I really think we're quite capable of sorting out our own problems.

And I do think you're a good writer, by the way, at the beginning.

But it's painful, isn't it?

I'm with you.

Like I'm with you.

I don't even, even if I'm writing like a thing for LinkedIn, I kind of have a vague idea of what I might be writing about.

But it changes as that thing gets written and it's like, oh, this is what I'm writing about.

Ah, interesting.

And that's what happens too with the thinking, oh, this is what I'm thinking about.

I wonder what's behind that.

And so I love.

Have you ever heard of morning pages?

Yes.

Oh, what is her name?

Cameron.

Cameron, I think is the last name.

And it.

So the idea was from a book.

It's over there somewhere in my room.

Is it Cameron?

Look that up while I'm talking the artist's way.

Morning pages.

Julia.

Cameron.

Yes.

Julian Cameron.

Yeah.

So the.

So I am the word artist and me is not a thing.

There is no creativity artist drama, nothing like that.

I was in a bookstore back in the day when there were books in bookstores and it wasn't all online and there was a book on the floor and I'm Canadian, we put shopping carts back where they belong.

We pick books off the floor, we do these things.

And the artist's way, I'm like, oh.

So I put it on and I looked at the back of the book.

I'm like, oh, what's this?

Opened up the book and then I saw this morning pages thing.

I'm like, what is this?

So this is about 30 years ago, I think, give or take.

And so I'm like, let me just play around with this.

So I started writing morning pages and the idea is you just write for 20 minutes or three pages is the.

Was the idea.

I just set a timer for 20 minutes and I have done this every single day for 30 years and you just write.

And if all you write is this is so dumb, I have nothing to say, there is nothing, you know, then that's fine.

Some, if you write your shopping list, that's fine.

If you write like whatever.

And what happens is it just like clears away the cobwebs and it gives you so much clarity whether it's to start your day off well.

And you know, sometimes I do evening pages, not morning pages, depending on my thing, but it's just that act of like sorting stuff out.

And I really do strongly believe that the pen in the hand is different from the fingers on the keyboard.

I agree.

Yeah.

So in terms, go going back to the coaching conversation, I think if you just start writing, you most of the time will solve your own problems.

You start to see other options.

Even if you write a question to yourself, what's going on or what matters or what are the options?

Just coming out and writing that down on the paper will give you the answers.

Yeah.

And you know, I think that's great.

And I, I, I agree.

I love the morning pages.

I've gotten a little bit away from that.

For a period of my career I was dedicated and I'm now it's, it's more sporadic.

But things were a lot better when I was.

I can't believe you've done that for 30 years.

That's fantastic.

One of the re.

I'll just give one trick that I felt like because I agree even just saying this is so dumb is helpful, but overcoming that blank page, one of the things that I felt is getting out of your head and into your body.

I mean literally like using your senses, thinking, man, this music is so loud.

And just write that whatever.

Right?

Yeah, just write what's looking, what's out the window or oh, I'm writing with the blue pen today.

Normally I write with a black like it can be ridiculous, it doesn't matter.

And then you can try writing with your non dominant hand and you can try like all kinds of different things.

Writing in the margins, writing not in the margins and all of this weird stuff.

Stuff that makes you so tuned into yourself.

Yeah, I just think it's really valuable.

And I think one of the things that with my clients is that, you know, I have like pre session forms for them to think, what do I want to discuss today?

What's my goal for the session?

And then I have like very, everything I have is very simple.

Very simple.

Like note taking forms where it's basically they carry, they could carry a notebook around with them if they wanted to, where they just notice things.

They write down what they notice.

Like, oh, that phone call was weird.

I don't know why it was weird, but it felt weird afterwards, you know, whatever.

And this awareness just like to start get.

And it's all habits, right?

Just get in the habit of this awareness.

And I've got one guy who he.

He writes these notes and then he shares them with me.

And you don't have to share them with me, but he likes to share them with me.

And, and you can see him solving his problems in the notes.

He's like, oh, I realize I did this, I did this last week.

So same thing, same problem, same person.

I wonder what's going on.

You can just see all that thinking.

And it's like with my clients, the people who take the reflecting and the note taking seriously get results.

The people who don't go around and around and around and they wander and they're waiting for some magic and they don't.

So it really matters to reflect and just go, what's going on?

Or that's interesting.

You don't have to answer the question.

You just have to go, that's interesting.

That was different.

That was good.

That was bad.

Yeah, be an observer of yourself.

Yeah, that's it.

We don't do that.

I want to mention something then I want to ask a question.

We'll get back to a few things, so be prepared.

This may.

I'll try not to make this a mini TED talk, but I'll stop as well.

I'll try to.

One of the things I'm thinking about or couldn't help but think of was the mediums of communication.

And I'll just run this theory by you and you can react to it or not, we can move on.

But for example, texting.

When I look at texting, I actually treat that almost as this is probably thought to thought.

As strange as it may be, it has not gone through the filter of my mouth.

I might not actually say these words out loud, but this is what I'm thinking.

Same thing might be with a LinkedIn message or a LinkedIn post.

Not that there's thinking, but they seem to be.

I communicate slightly different through different mediums, whether it's the comments on a Google Doc even versus an email.

An email tends to be a little bit more formal for me, even though I try to stay human.

All of these things have a slightly different communication slant.

My Slack message, et cetera.

I don't know if you have a theory or thought about that and building your influence.

And if we go back to that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think it's prudent for a company or a team to have a very clear communication plan in terms of how are we going to communicate different things.

So certain things should be in writing, by email.

Certain things are okay for Slack.

Certain things must be in, you know, whatever phone calls.

I think having a plan for that is important.

But I think.

I don't know if I've got really fully formed thoughts about this.

I think that we have to be mindful of the channel that we're using.

Yeah.

And think.

Because I'm.

I think we had a little dialogue about.

I don't know if I responded to this, actually, but you made a comment about your use of exclamation mark.

Oh, I did reply.

I did reply.

Because then I said explanation marks, which I think could be a thing.

But.

But so, but.

But in exclamation marks.

Some people are like, why is she so mad?

It's like, I'm not.

I'm excited.

You know, and so.

And so when things are out loud versus with a face versus on, you know, on paper, you have to be really, really mindful of how it could be perceived.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so you have to think more.

You have to not just be sort of off the cuff.

You have to think, should I phone, should I text, should I email?

What's the right thing to do right now with this person and this situation?

Yeah.

So you're just always being very intentional about every bit of communication you do.

Yeah, when I write.

Used to, I had a.

A weekly newsletter and when I would write that, I would think to myself, I need to edit.

Edit or write however you want to look at that for three different people.

One for me, I'm just writing my morning pages.

I'm doing my thing.

And I might cut off the this feels dumb or the blue pin part.

And now I'm into the meat.

And that's what I may.

So I write for myself first, then I write for my friends, the people who actually like my writing.

But then I also edit for my enemies.

Not that I have any enemies.

Yeah.

What are they gonna have problems with?

Exactly.

We could probably stand to do that a little bit with our professional writing and our SOPs, for example.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The first thing that came to mind right then, though is sort of generational differences in especially like, I feel like young people maybe who are used to texting and tiktoking and that sort of way of are, are they don't have the same sort of filter mechanism that older people have.

And then I'm actually losing my filter again as I get older too, because it's like, life is too short.

I'm just gonna say it, you know, but.

But I think.

And so, you know, at a workplace where you've got people in their 20s and people in their 60s, that it also is about knowing the audience.

And it's like, how's the best way to reach this young person here?

Are they going to read the email?

Probably not.

They're not used to reading for more than seven seconds in a row.

So, you know, let me think that through.

Well, and I'll add something to that too, because I recently came across, well, someone and I were talking about the culture map, which I haven't read yet, but they were explaining high context cultures versus low context cultures.

And I think that's probably not even just regionally, but psychographically or across industries, across, you know, generations, like you say.

I like.

Personally, I love all the details.

I want to know all the context.

And maybe someone else from a CEO standpoint is like, give me the high level and what you got to do about it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And knowing that, that's about knowing the audience.

So, so when I'm coaching someone and we're talking about how am I going to approach this CFO for money, it's like, well, how does this guy make decisions?

Gotta know that.

How does he like his information?

How does he like, should you be having a phone call?

Cause maybe this guy doesn't like one on one, like face to face.

Yeah, you gotta know all that stuff.

And that's part of the thinking through of coaching.

Like, and what's your plan for finding out what you don't know?

Because a lot of the times, like, I don't.

How do I know?

Well, what's your plan?

Let's think of how you're going to find out what's what the missing bits and pieces of information are.

And that allows you to prepare properly for the best chance of success in this whatever high stakes conversation is coming up.

Yeah, I think that's right.

I think that's, that's a good way to look at it.

Okay.

The question I was going to get to was some people may be thinking, oh, you're talking about a lot of different tactics and so on.

I thought this was about culture and I.

One of my definitions of culture, for me, because it is a slippery subject.

I like Seth Godin's, the way he describes it, culture is people like us do things like this.

And that's kind of how I look at what is your company and how.

How do you.

You kind of define your own.

I had a CEO that told me, you don't go into a company and you love the culture, and the culture's just raining down on you.

You're just dancing in the rain.

He's like, no, you are the rain.

Kind of like when you're in traffic, you're actually not in traffic.

You are the traffic.

You're part of it.

So.

So the culture is part of your job.

If these are the things, if this is the kind of workplace you want to live in or be in, this is a big part.

Your job is.

Is to maintain and start this cultural effect.

What.

What are your thoughts?

Yeah, culture is in my.

In my sort of definition of culture.

It's, It's.

It's the.

The behavior.

It's the value.

Well, I mean, it's the beliefs, values, mindset, and behavior, and the behavior is what reflects all of this.

So, like, we're.

We make a beeline for behavior.

We need you to do this.

Do this thing.

And we go, we have to think, oh, wait, we've got to make sure everyone's got the same mindset here and the same beliefs and the same values.

And, you know, we don't control a lot of that.

A lot of times there is an existing culture, so you're not going to be like, oh, okay, we're going to build a quality culture.

We're just going to plunk it in here.

It's going to be magic.

No, every company already has an existing culture, so you have to be aware of that.

And then you have to build this quality culture on top of it.

And really, it's about the mindset.

And so do we change our mindset after a PowerPoint presentation?

No.

Right.

We change.

It's just a slow thing, and it happens person by person, conversation by conversation.

And so, you know, people come to me, they're like, I need to improve my quality culture.

It's like, well, how much time do you have?

Because you're going to need a couple of years, you know, because we're talking about people and we're talking about beliefs and so.

And trust and all of that stuff.

And so really, culture really is about the relationships and.

And I'm trying to bring it back to you saying, you are the traffic, you are the rain, you are the.

But it's like your behaviors are the culture in a way.

Right.

If we took it down to the person, the specific person.

I had an issue and I know we're close on time, so apologies for this.

So I, I had a project management course where I was an accidental project manager and they were, they sent me to emergency trans training, so to kind of give me my engineering a lobotomy so that I could make decisions quickly.

And one of the, the trainer looked at me, they said something in the.

And.

And I guess I made a face or something, but they said, you need to understand the politics and embrace the politics of your organization.

And she looked at me and said, you don't like that?

Out of 40 people, she singled me out.

And I'm like, I don't like it.

Why would, why would I want to be a.

You know, have to understand and play politics?

And she said, if you don't understand the politics, if you don't embrace them, you're not going to be able to protect the people and help the people who don't.

So I'm curious what your thoughts are, because we don't like the playing politics thing.

No.

How can I build influence?

And what, what's the, what's the way there?

Yeah, I, I've had a couple of clients who like, push back when I make suggestions of kind of like feels a little bit manipulative.

Some of the things that I'm suggesting.

It feels very politicky.

But you have to realize that it's kind of how you frame it because influence isn't like.

Influence starts with empathy, not with force.

Right.

And so we have to remember that, like with the quality culture, with trying to get people to think this way.

We're not like.

I don't think of it being influential as the same as trying to convince somebody.

There's no pressure associated with it.

It's mainly about understanding what the other person needs and giving it to them.

To me, that's what politics is.

So influence or politics even is an exchange.

So I want you to approve the spending for my new EQMs.

And my job is to figure out what I can give you in exchange for that.

So to do that, I need to know what matters to you.

Right.

So I probably need a relationship with you.

What do you care about?

What keeps you up at night?

Night?

What do you need?

And believe it or not, we all need pretty basic stuff.

So this is sort of where it starts feeling a little bit manipulative and playing politics.

But we all need to feel heard.

Sometimes people need the last word.

Sometimes people need to feel to be right.

Sometimes people need to win.

Fine.

Figure out what each of the people you're dealing with needs and give it to them.

Now, when I suggest this people, that's so sneaky eminent.

It's like, well, okay, you can call it what you want, but for me, it's like, what's the end goal?

It's for the greater good here.

I'm not, like, tricking people and trying.

I'm using what I know about human nature and human behavior and going, oh, yeah, we do get more cooperation from people if they're happy and we give them what they need.

So maybe somebody wants their ego stroked.

That's important to them.

What's the harm if I do that, if that ends up giving me what I need?

Maybe a good question.

I mean, we should be able to infer it, I would expect, especially with the examples that you've given.

But what would be the consequence of not getting.

Not actually going through and doing this?

Well, then people don't feel heard.

They don't feel that you get them.

They.

They feel like, why should I cooperate?

You don't.

I don't even like you because you show.

You've given me no reason to like you.

You've given me no reason.

You know, it to me, it's like you're just.

Your goal is to break down the resistance.

The resistance.

The resistance is coming because they're not getting what they need.

So your job is to find out, what do they need?

And sometimes that takes a while to figure it out.

But when you study someone for a while, like, most people just want to be appreciated.

Even the guys at the top, or maybe especially the guys at the top, they feel so overworked, so misunderstood.

There's so many priorities and pressures and competing pressures on them, and maybe they just need someone to say, man, you're doing a great job.

Like, oh, your plate is full.

Maybe that's all they need.

Right?

And that's sometimes enough for them to go, I like you.

What do you need again?

Yeah, here's the check.

You know, honestly, that's because.

Because people are human.

And we forget, I think, that the people in power at our companies are also humans.

I think we forget that they respond to the same things regular humans respond to.

They want to feel understood, they want to feel heard.

They want to be appreciated.

That's it.

Yeah.

One of my favorite responses to an email is hua.

And my wife, actually, when she wants to get on.

On my good side, she just respond with hu, which is heard, understood, acknowledged.

Just three letters, and it's set.

So nice.

Okay.

Yeah, we need the screensaver with that.

With that.

Because that is.

If we could just remember that, we'd all be set.

It would be easy.

Yeah.

Right.

A lot of professionals, I feel like, are quietly burning out.

You know, there's that phrase, a lot of professionals die at 26, and they're not buried till they're 65.

And that's.

And I don't.

And I. I don't know if that's still the case or not, but I would imagine this burnout, maybe it shows up differently with quality regulatory folks.

I have posts where they're.

They're hiding in the cubicles behind the stacks of paper that they're trying to approve.

But.

But how.

Have you seen that?

And how.

I would imagine a lot of what you do helps people overcome this.

So I know there's a.

Multiple questions in there.

Yeah.

I have a lot of people that when people come to a coach, it's because they're in a crisis of some kind.

And a lot of people come to me at the start of a new position, a new role, a new job entirely a new job, because they don't want to muck up.

Just like they've.

They're just coming off of usually a burnout situation, possibly multiple burnout situations.

And they're like, I do not want to repeat whatever this infernal pattern is that I haven't figured out.

And so I need support as I go through the first, you know, three to six months at this new job.

So they're aware of it.

And I think, again, like, dealing with burnout comes back to clarity again.

And trying to understand, like, what went wrong.

Right.

What went wrong.

So, honestly, sometimes, like, I call myself a communication coach or a leadership coach, but I can't tell you the number of times that the coaching session starts with, like, I don't even know why I'm doing this job anymore.

Like, I really.

It's not fulfilling or it's just so frustrating.

And so that conversation does not necessarily mean they're gonna leave their job.

It just means, like, okay, let's figure out what's not aligned here.

Right.

So.

And it's.

So then it's learning, like, what do I need to do differently to.

To feel better here, to avoid that burnout?

Feel like maybe I need to be better at setting boundaries.

Maybe I need to learn how to say no.

Maybe my imposter syndrome is so ridiculous that it's just draining me every day, and that's why I'm feeling burned out.

Maybe I need mindset work.

Yeah.

And so, you know, could look burnout, could look like anything.

Most of the time, I think burnout looks like just, like, flat.

Like you've lost your interest.

You're, like, just going to work, getting the paycheck and hoping for the best.

You just.

You've.

You.

You've almost, like, surrendered.

Yes.

Like, ugh.

Yep.

Yeah.

If you.

If you had one takeaway for the audience after this conversation, what would that one takeaway be?

1.

The one thing that you would hope they would think of in months and years to come.

Okay, I have to give two.

I have to give it.

Okay.

Okay.

So.

So one, I think.

And we covered this many times in many answers today.

We have to think of the audience, the other person, the person we're speaking to.

Okay.

We have to change our perspective.

We have to think.

Like, we have to not say, right now, we're saying, why isn't my message landing?

It's so clear.

That's what we're thinking right now.

Right.

Like, I can't be any clearer.

I'm really clear.

I'm using simple words.

It's good.

Leslie would be thrilled with me.

But why isn't my message landing?

We had to change from that viewpoint to, what does the listener need to hear in order for my message to land and be understood the way I want it to be understood?

So it's just like pausing for a second, putting yourself in the other person's shoes and going, what do they need to hear right now?

And the other thing is, keep it simple.

Just meaning familiar to the audience.

So, yeah, go ahead, use jargon if it's a.

If the audience knows it.

But don't use buzzwords, though.

I take a strong stand on buzzwords because they're unclear.

Because, like the word holistic, for example, you mean something when you use holistic.

I probably mean something else.

So if there's a debate over a word, why is it there?

No, it just makes things confusing.

So just keep things really simple, because that's the universal language and.

Yeah, that's it.

That's my only advice.

Keep it simple.

I don't know.

Again, I'm doing a terrible job attributing quotes today, but one of my favorites is the biggest pro.

One of the biggest problems with communication is the assumption that it has happened.

Yeah.

So, yeah, yeah, I agree.

That's.

That's true.

And I think most quotes actually are mis.

They're.

They're not misattributed.

It's probably the right way to think.

So I'll just say it's not me.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Einstein hasn't said all those things that, yeah, that's, that's.

One of my biggest hang ups too.

But anyway, yeah, that sounds good.

It's been really fun.

I really appreciate the conversation.

Leslie, where do you.

I know you have some new things cooking up, so I don't know if you want to point people in different directions, we'll put links in the show notes.

But where, where do you recommend people reach out and find you?

Honestly, at this point, just my email list.

Okay.

I have this, you know, in my email list.

I have, I, I think high value emails.

I try not to sell too much in my emails and so I think that's a good starting point for people.

And then through my email they'll learn about anything else that's going on in my world.

So I think that's probably the easiest route.

Okay.

And those of you listening, I highly recommend you follow Leslie on LinkedIn.

She's very active and very open about her thoughts and opinions and you can get a lot of just insight out of it.

And I'll always be in the comments or I'll try to always be in the comments.

I sometimes miss things, but she's one of my favorite people to follow on LinkedIn, so highly recommend that.

Thank you for being on the show.

We will let you all get back to it.

Until next time, everybody take care.

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