Part 2

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there and a very warm welcome to season five episode 22 of people soup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Heather: I think about a specific example, you know, like typically you're at work and you're like, right, I'm feeling tired. What can I do right now? Well, I need to just caffeinate my way through this and push, push, push.

[00:00:18] Heather: Whereas if you take that second, like you say, between stimulus and response and you say, Well, actually, what do I need right now? Maybe it's you haven't actually gotten up from your desk in the last two or three hours, you know? Or if you're finding yourself going on b, BBC news and scrolling and scrolling and scrolling, maybe it's that you need a break, you know?

[00:00:35] Heather: Um, and the thing is, we get confused. We think, oh, well I just need more caffeine. Rather than, well, actually I haven't had enough sleep and I'm actually just tired. Or I need more sugar because, oh, well actually I just need that energy. But actually, are there other ways in which you can get that energy, that feel more nourishing?

[00:00:51] Ross: Pay supers. And our previous episode, I introduced you to Dr. Heather McKee. Heather is a health behavior change specialist. And this episode, we hear more about how this work.

[00:01:02] Ross: Including how she creates the permission for carers to extend compassion towards themselves. We also chat about creating lifelong habits, looking after ourselves at work And unraveling our unhealthy habits. It's packed with takeaways and how that also reveals the secret sauce we can all use to support ourselves.

[00:01:21] Ross: People super's an award-winning podcast where we share evidence-based behavioral science. In a way that's practical, accessible, and fun to help you glow to work a bit more often.

[00:01:48] Ross: Let's just scoot over to the news desk because I have got some big news to share. I think we might even have a drum roll.

[00:01:56] Ross: [00:02:00] Pea Soupers I'm delighted to announce that I'll be running an act in the work place, train the trainer course in April and may next year. Over four sessions in partnership with Joe Oliver at contextual consulting. It's been a while in the planning and you'll find a link to all the details in the show notes.

[00:02:19] Ross: Also I'm planning a summer series of live podcast recordings. Which is super exciting and I'll be sharing more news shortly as it emerges.

[00:02:28] Ross: Thanks to everyone who listened, shared and rate it part one with Heather. Your support is what makes the people's soup community so special. So please do keep listening and sharing and letting me know what you think too. It can get a bit lonely sometimes here in podcast land. So For now. Get a brew on and have a listen to part two of my chat with Heather McKee. Heather, I'd like to dive into your work even more than we have already and really start exploring healthy habits that stick. And at the end of the last episode, you said, Something that really attracted my attention about working with some carers in the NHS building self-compassion. Wow. And I am so on board with that.

[00:03:13] Ross: I think a lot of the work I do is allowing NHS professionals to, to think about how they can look after themselves. often their own self-care is way down their to-do list, and they see it as a sort of secondary or thirdly, priority. But tell us more about self-compassion for carers. Please, if you would.

[00:03:34] Heather: Yeah, well, I, I think you've, you know, you summarized it so perfectly there, Ross, as in, you know, they actually almost expend all their compassion treating others and then leave very little for themselves. And that makes, you know, people burn out quite easily. It, it, it can affect their health in, in all sorts of ways.

[00:03:55] Heather: And being a carer is hard enough as it is, but it's even harder if [00:04:00] you're being hard on yourself about it. And, you know, we find that a lot in, caring communities that people, you know, Actually just don't spend that much time caring for themselves and actually feel quite guilty, caring for themselves.

[00:04:12] Permission for Self Care

[00:04:12] Heather: Um, and yet find it so easy to care, be compassionate and express care towards each other, so, or to towards others. and so I suppose in, in the talks I'm doing with them, it's, it's, it's more about, you know, giving them space and permission. I think permission is a very important word to care for themselves and to know what that looks like, that it doesn't necessarily mean bubble baths and, you know, glasses of red wine and chocolate, which is wonderful.

[00:04:40] Heather: but it's also actually knowing about when they need to go into the bathroom and have a take a breath. It's also about knowing when they need to go for a walk outside on their own, just to clear their head. It's about knowing when they need to step away, when they realize that they've overstepped their own personal boundaries.

[00:04:57] Heather: It's about knowing about how to speak to themselves in an encouraging way when they're finding the things they're getting on top of themselves. It's about, ultimately, it's about exactly what I said. It's about giving them permission to care for themselves. And I think often I say, you know, we're all looking for permission.

[00:05:13] Heather: We're all waiting for someone just to say, it's okay. You can do this. And I, I always say, you know, I say, I'm giving it to you right now. There you go. This is it. You've got permission to take care of yourselves. what are you gonna do with that permission? and then we, we, we look to build some skills in order to, engage with that.

[00:05:29] Heather: So we work on. Strengths-based, stuff. So acknowledging their strengths, thinking about times where they've showed strength and, and leaning into those strengths and maybe picking a couple of character strengths that they wish to focus in on and hone in on. because, you know, I suppose we're all too busy focused on what we do wrong rather than what we do, right?

[00:05:48] Heather: And, and so training the brain to focus on what we do well and where our strengths are. And I think there's something you, you do so naturally. Ross, you know, in the last, episode, you know, you used the word tenacity, and you use the word [00:06:00] curiosity and you know, you, you mentioned those strengths.

[00:06:02] Heather: And immediately it makes the person feel like, yes, I can do this. Like, you know, Ross thinks I'm a tenacious person, and can we not just do that for ourselves? Can we, can we tune into what our, our true strengths are? And that's certainly an exercise we do. Another one is, thought reframing, which I think is something you probably do in your work as well, Ross, about what are those?

[00:06:21] Heather: Negative thought habits that come up time and time again. What's that negative conversation that we have with ourselves and, and what's a more positive or more, encouraging or more even true, statement that we could make or mantra we could have for when those thoughts come up? so thoughts might be, you know, oh,

[00:06:37] Compassion in developing lifelong habits

[00:06:37] Heather: cycling, for example.

[00:06:39] Heather: Oh, well, I haven't cycled again this week. I'm a failure. Or I'm only gonna do three kilometers this time. I've failed. Instead of saying, I'm returning from injury, and I'm treating my body with care and kindness, so I'm gonna pace myself because this is a lifelong habit that I wanna engage with.

[00:06:54] Heather: I don't wanna come back too early and burn myself out. I'm gonna take the time that I need to return to this. And it's the exact same behavior. It's not about pulling the wool over anyone's eyes or walking around rose tinted glasses. It's about seeing the strength within you and withdrawing that strength and empowering yourself with that strength.

[00:07:13] Ross: Wow. I want to reflect on a couple of points there, because the word permission is so super important. People are waiting for that permission. We often get that word used in feedback. Particularly in healthcare settings, I feel like I have permission that it's okay to look after myself, and it resonates with what I've done with teachers as well.

[00:07:33] Ross: Teachers, again, who are so focused on learning and educating and supporting our young people that they can forget to look after themselves or think, that that's a bit weak or, you just need to crack on.

[00:07:47] Heather: Yeah.

[00:07:48] Ross: And that's what leads to, to burnout and, and disconnection from what gives us meaning and motivation.

[00:07:56] Heather: Mm. And it's funny because, you know, we all think that we need that inner critic [00:08:00] because that's what gets us to our goals. But ultimately, in time and time again, in studies, they've shown that people that have a more compassionate voice get to their goals faster, and they, they find the journey more enjoyable.

[00:08:11] Heather: And certainly it comes to habits. They actually, the more compassionate you are, the more likely you are to exercise, the more likely you are to spend time on things like nutrition, the more likely you are to give yourself enough sleep each night, the more likely you are to be able to set boundaries, that actually allow you then to thrive when you're in these positions of caring or giving to other people because you've managed to kind of, I, I'm not sure if I love this phrase, but fill your cup first, you know, um, so that you're, you're feeling full and whole.

[00:08:38] Heather: So then you can, you're not living giving what's left. You're giving what's you know best in a way because you've actually had that time to nourish yourself psychologically, emotionally. you know, mentally, socially, whatever way it it needs to be. And actually, on that note, one little exercise, um, that we do in the session, which I absolutely love, it's from a researcher called Dr.

[00:08:58] Heather: Kristen Neff, who you probably know well. She know she's one of the kind of key people in, self-compassion, and it's called the self-care check-in. And, and it's about, you know, thinking multiple times throughout the day just for the peace supers that maybe, haven't heard this exercise before. It's picking, you know, times throughout your day when you're struggling or you find yourself berating yourself or you feel like you're rud a bit ragged and just stopping for a second and asking yourself, what can I do in this moment to nourish myself?

[00:09:24] Heather: And that doesn't necessarily mean go and eat food, but you might find that you, when you ask yourself that question, you realize you're hungry and you miss lunch or, you know, you're really thirsty and you actually haven't had a glass of water yet, or whatever it happens to be. But it could also mean.

[00:09:38] Heather: What do I need to do physically? So it might be that you need to go out for a walk and clear your head, or you need to just even just release tension that you've been holding in your shoulders or your neck after a difficult phone call. Or it might be socially, you might be actually feeling a little bit lonely.

[00:09:52] Heather: You might find yourself on your phone trying to connect to people. Maybe you need to go and talk to someone or have a phone call, or it [00:10:00] might be, you know, that you need something like, you need a good laugh, you need to go find a YouTube video that makes you laugh. Or, it might be that, you know, need to go and, you know, pet the cat or the dog or you know, see a child and, and just see that innocence.

[00:10:13] Heather: but actually by training ourselves, you know, multiple times a day just to say, just to stop for a second and ask ourselves what is it that I need in this moment to nourish myself, can really help us tune in to actually our own self-awareness. It can help us understand what our true needs are. And it also stops us kind of indulging in those behaviors that actually.

[00:10:34] Heather: Maybe short term seem quite pleasurable and rewarding, but long term aren't actually that nourishing. So, you know, maybe binging on, you know, streaming TV or alcohol or food or, you know, over consuming social media. You know, it, it's actually training that personal intuition and that connection with ourselves that we're ultimately learning to, to love and nourish ourselves better.

[00:10:57] Ross: Yeah. Thank you for bringing up that exercise. I absolutely love it and I'm a real admirer of Christian Neff's work, but that, what can I do now to nourish? I think that's such a lovely pause in a day and such a compassionate act because perhaps we haven't shown up as the best version of ourselves.

[00:11:14] Ross: We've snapped at someone, or we've realized it's got to the end of the day and we haven't been out on our bikes and we've fully intended to, what can I do to nourish myself with kindness? And it could be going to speak to a person that maybe we realize we haven't been our best selves with, or it could be just going outside and taking a moment to breathe.

[00:11:34] Ross: And connect with nature, having a look at what's around you. Or it could be setting myself up for tomorrow to go out on my bike and identifying a time I'm gonna do it and put it in my diary. So not being so hard on ourselves. And, and you're right, ACT has a similar a approach, again from cognitive behavioral therapy, but act is considered like a third wave and act.

[00:11:56] Ross: They call it cognitive diffusion. So can I get a bit of [00:12:00] space between myself and that unhelpful thought? That unhelpful thought may be like, oh, I haven't been out on my bike. That means I'm a failure and I'm never gonna nail this. And it allows us to realize the humanity of having thoughts like that, that the kind of normal, it normalizes thoughts like that and says, look, you're gonna have these as a human being, and that's normal If you get a bit of space, there's various techniques, but if you get a bit of space between yourself and that thought, then you can see it for what it is. And maybe that space gives you a chance to think about, how could I connect with what really matters to me in this next moment? How could I reconnect to that?

[00:12:39] Ross: And it's one psychologist called Kelly Wilson, one of the founders of act, he called it like a lifetime of gentle returns to what matters. And I love that because it encapsulates compassion. it encapsulates

[00:12:54] Ross: that we're gonna

[00:12:54] Ross: fail and that we can get back on the horse or the bike.

[00:12:59] Ross: So,

[00:13:00] Ross: so yeah, it's

[00:13:01] Ross: it's so lovely to hear.

[00:13:02] Heather: I wonder, you know, when people hear us say that it might strike fear into them, in a way because they're like, what matters to me? I don't know what matters. Like, you know, and, and, and, and suddenly that becomes a little bit of a, a stress, for them. I, I'm curious about how you approach that.

[00:13:18] Ross: Yeah, so maybe making it small and just experimenting a bit as well to think about maybe I think about, well, who matters to

[00:13:26] Ross: me,

[00:13:26] Heather: Lovely.

[00:13:27] Ross: but in terms of what matters, what it's like we were talking about earlier, what matters to me about getting out on my bike is seeing nature, is feeling the, the weather on my face.

[00:13:38] Ross: there's something quite joyful about being on a bike for me that that human powered locomotion that is just like a kind of miracle and like, Hey, I'm powering this contraption, and there's something quite joyful about that. And. Kind of, you know, when you're going down a hill and you wanna

[00:13:55] Ross: stick your legs

[00:13:56] Heather: well I was gonna let you in a little secret there cuz I was saying I pretty [00:14:00] much, every time I go downhill on a bike, I always go wee,

[00:14:06] Ross: there we

[00:14:06] Ross: go. Kindred spirits.

[00:14:08] Heather: Yeah.

[00:14:09] Heather: exactly. It's interesting, it's it cuz like, I think about this, like, if

[00:14:13] Looking after ourselves at work - maybe for intro

[00:14:13] Heather: I think about a specific example, you know, like typically you're at work and you're like, right, I'm feeling tired. What can I do right now? Well, I need to just caffeinate my way through this and push, push, push.

[00:14:24] Heather: Whereas if you take that second, like you say, between stimulus and response and you say, Well, actually, what do I need right now? Maybe it's you haven't actually gotten up from your desk in the last two or three hours, you know? Or if you're finding yourself going on b, BBC news and scrolling and scrolling and scrolling, maybe it's that you need a break, you know?

[00:14:42] Heather: Um, and the thing is, we get confused. We think, oh, well I just need more caffeine. Rather than, well, actually I haven't had enough sleep and I'm actually just tired. Or I need more sugar because, oh, well actually I just need that energy. But actually, are there other ways in which you can get that energy, that feel more nourishing?

[00:14:57] Heather: And, um, by stepping away and creating that gap between the thoughts, we can start to say, well, actually no, another, my heart's already pounding. Another coffee's gonna send me right over the edge. I'm gonna feel so anxious. I'm gonna be, you know, jittering around with my pen. Like I'm trying to like sing along to the river dance soundtrack or something crazy, you know?

[00:15:16] Heather: and, and so actually, yeah, like creating that space there. It doesn't have to be, you know, a real profound, like, what's my purpose in life? And I need to lie myself with that huge purpose. It can be as simple as, do you know what, having another coffee right now is gonna be too much for me, it's gonna send me over the edge.

[00:15:31] Heather: Well, it would be nice if I just stepped out in the balcony and just felt the fresh air in my face for a few minutes, no technology, nothing, and just took a break. and it, it's surprising how little people do that these days now. You know, we all, we're all kind of seduced by the cult of busyness and actually more like the keeping up with the Joneses cult of the busyness.

[00:15:52] Heather: You know, I'm more busy than you. Are you busy? Oh, I'm more busy than that and I haven't taken a break in X hours and, you know, whatever [00:16:00] else. And, that's something that I think is really important and I, it's something that I always, try, encourage with the companies I work with in terms of the culture as well.

[00:16:07] Heather: You know, when people say, oh, well I've got this unhelpful behavior, or I find I'm eating too much, drinking too much, not exercising enough, not sleeping well enough, not managing my stress. And I ask, well, what, what do you do to manage your stress throughout the day? how do you take a break? happens there?

[00:16:22] Heather: What are the behaviors that happen there? And often people, you know, can't tell me how they take a break. They say, well, I might go on my phone or I might, you know, I think especially actually given that the world is, has become much more, you know, virtual, a lot of people, you know, won't talk to someone on their break necessarily.

[00:16:39] Heather: Or, you know, like we would go for lunch with a colleague maybe in the past that that stuff has kind of gone out the window and it's almost retraining people again, to think about, well, what do I need in this moment to nourish me? What are the activities that nourish me? Because when you ask people, often they don't know what those are.

[00:16:56] Heather: And I think that's, Uh, an interesting process to, start to establish a toolkit of, of behaviors and, and little breaks you can have throughout the day that really do leave you feeling more refreshed and nourished.

[00:17:06] Ross: Super interesting to hear you cuz we, we are so aligned cuz I think if I am feeling a bit despondent my, go-to thing, if I'm feeling tired or frustrated in my working day, I might go, I'm gonna have a biscuit, I'm gonna have a bag of crisps or something. And that might satisfy me in that short term moment, that instant where I grab a hobnob,

[00:17:28] Heather: Mm,

[00:17:29] Ross: then that's not who I want to be in the long

[00:17:32] Ross: term. You know what I mean? The longer term, we don't often think about the longer term consequences of just keeping going or having

[00:17:39] Ross: another coffee.

[00:17:40] Heather: And the cues as well. If you think about the repetition, like each time you eat the hobnob, When you're tired, next time you're tired, you think, oh, what did I do the last time? Oh, I ate a hobnob. That's what made me feel better. Or that's what made me feel rewarded in this. You know, if we look at the, the kind of habit loop, which is cue or trigger behavior reward, we think our brain starts [00:18:00] to create a neurological feedback loop around that and says, okay Ross, you're tired.

[00:18:05] Heather: Okay, let's have a biscuit because that's what we did the last time. And that'll feel good. And then the more you repeat that in the same given context or circumstance, the more likely that is to become habitual, both in thought and in action to the point where you find yourself in the kitchen with the hob knobs without even having to think about it.

[00:18:21] Ross: Yeah. And you don't even remember whether you've had a hobnob, so then you go and have another one. Other biscuits are available

[00:18:27] ONe of our studies

[00:18:27] Heather: Yeah. It was interesting cuz in one of our studies we found there was two types a day. Cause I was fascinated by this, like, when did people give into temptations and why? And one of the things we found was that around 3 34 o'clock. And around eight 30 in the evening were the times that people most gave into temptations.

[00:18:45] unravelling our unhelpful habits

[00:18:45] Heather: And you know, people thought that temptation was just an isolated incident, kind of a one time only thing. But actually most people had this pattern of behavior within their temptation incidences. And at three or four, it was generally because they needed a break in the day. And so I called it, I renamed it the biscuit slump, because, you know, it's when we kind of needed, or maybe we could call it the hobnob slump, you know, when we felt like we just needed that extra little bit of energy and, you know, that was the only way we thought we could have a break.

[00:19:14] Heather: And then the evening it was things like alcohol, temptations, and, and other things. But it is quite a curious exercise and I think it's something that, you know, the P Soupers can do themselves as well if they wanted to, you know, over the next week, track when you're most tempted. And why? Because that will give you an insight into actually how to unravel those unhelpful habits.

[00:19:34] Heather: Because if you're finding at a certain time of day, You're always kind of craving a biscuit. Yes, it might be habitual because you've done it so often, but what's driving that? Is it you know that you need that energy boost at that time of day? Maybe cuz you haven't eaten enough lunch. Is it that you need a break at that time of day?

[00:19:50] Heather: So you're looking for stress relief or you're just looking to get out of the room that you're in, or you're looking to do something else? You know, you can start to experiment with that. And they always say, you know, if you think about habits [00:20:00] on a loop, you've got your cue or trigger. You've got your behavior, your reward, every habit, every behavior.

[00:20:04] Heather: If it's helpful, it's unhelpful. Or if you wanna call 'em good or bad habits, they all are in response to particular rewards. So if we can understand more about what that reward is, then we can look at what are other ways that I could serve this reward at this time. So for example, typical example would be, you know, drinking, to socialize.

[00:20:22] Heather: And it's like when people actually, you know, they might not even like the drinking part or when the drinking kind of spirals. It actually is just that they're wanting to be around their colleagues. They're wanting to have a chat, they're wanting to have a deep debrief, they're wanting to unwind. Is there another way is something we experimented with when the companies I used to work with pre Covid Thursday, they had a massive drinking culture.

[00:20:40] Heather: They wanted to kind of cut down on it and on a Thursday they'd always go for pints. And you know, people were saying like, it's great catching up with the team, but they're finding Friday it's affecting productivity. You know, people are kind of rolling into the weekend or whatever, not feeling so great.

[00:20:54] Heather: And so we looked at, well what are they looking for in that habit? Like what are they looking for in those behaviors? What are they searching for in the alcohol? It was connection with their colleagues. And so, we experimented with a few different things and the thing that they found actually that stuck for them was they started going rock climbing.

[00:21:09] Heather: on a Thursday altogether, and they found that they got the same feelings of bonding with their colleagues, but they got this kind of endorphin release as well and this stress relief and everything and, and actually the positive challenge of trying a new activity and, and, and supporting each other to try that new activity.

[00:21:26] Heather: And it was quite interesting because the queue was the same, the same time of day on a Thursday. The behavior was getting together as a group of colleagues and the reward was still a social reward, but it was just a different type of habit. It wasn't the drinking, it became the rock line for them.

[00:21:42] Ross: Gosh, what a fabulous example. I absolutely love that because it's. It's kind of like manifesting your curiosity and what I see in the way you, you talk and the way you are making this accessible for people is your, your curiosity, your playfulness, and you are encouraging people to [00:22:00] experiment because as you've said earlier, we're not experts in being those other people.

[00:22:04] Ross: So we can't say, this is what you need to

[00:22:06] Ross: do. We can give you the skills that you can help and try in your own context to see what works and what doesn't. And adopting that stance of being curious and kind with yourself is at the heart of all of that. It's like I often say to people that the skills I'm looking to cultivate and support people in developing, were never taught at school.

[00:22:28] Ross: We're never taught as a, to me as a young adult, and for me, I think the workplace is an arena where we can go in and have an audience that hopeful will be curious and interested and they'll be a thirst for this cuz people might just be stuck or fed up or thinking they can never change.

[00:22:48] Ross: What motivates you to get outta bed in the morning and go and spring up and work with organizations and, and do those scary things like keynotes?

[00:22:57] Heather: I think I focus on what it gives me back. I, I really do practice what I preach in terms of everything as well as failing. you know, I think about those conversations I have with people at the end. I, I, but I, I like to just caveat that by saying, Every time before I do a keynote, probably the 20 minutes before it, I'm like, why do I do this to myself?

[00:23:18] Heather: Why have I done this to myself again? It's terrifying. What if I forget cuz I tend to go on tangents as you've probably seen. What if I forget what I'm talking about and can't bring it back to the point? Or, you know, what if my mouth goes dry and sticks to the top of my, my lipstick together? Or some sort of thing that's never happened before, but for some reason will happen just in that session at the right moment.

[00:23:41] Heather: but then when I get up there, I, I actually think, you know, speaking is one of the most mindful activities you could possibly do in the world because you cannot listen to your brain. You can't listen to thoughts because you're talking all of the time. And so you need to be with the audience, you need to be looking at things.

[00:23:57] Heather: You need to be seeing how people receive you, as well as [00:24:00] trying to, you know, convey that message in a way that's gonna be accessible for them and react to the energy and, and understand more. And so it's an incredibly. Mindful activity cuz you'd be so in that moment you cannot be anywhere else but in the room with people.

[00:24:15] Heather: And, and in that way I find it quite an emotional, thing to do as well. And, and so at the end, I always find it quite interesting because people have seen you speak for an hour, but you haven't actually met those people individually face to face. But they all come up to you afterwards, like, you're an old friend.

[00:24:28] Heather: I'd say, oh, Heather, you talked about this. Or I often find I'll be in the toilet and someone will be kind of, you know, coming up to me in the toilet and being like, oh, do you know why you said this thing? Or whatever. And, and I, I just love those conversations and I think that's really, I, I know this sounds a bit silly, but it says penny drop moments for people when they're like, it's all so simple and I, and they don't mean that to be offensive to my keynotes.

[00:24:50] Heather: You know, it's all so simple. But, um, they're like, it's just so simple. I have been complicating this for myself for so long and actually, you know, I. feel like, you know, like the Wizard of Oz story, you know, I kind of feel like my philosophy is similar in that way. Like we all have to go on a bit of a journey and meet various different friends and learn different skills along the way and fight different battles and journeys and you know, inner inner demons and outer demons and all of that.

[00:25:17] Heather: But ultimately at the end of the day, we learn that we have those skills inside of us all long and it's just about actually discovering those skills and unraveling all the layers that block those skills and then all, and that's kind of my aim to help people find that, you know, those ruby slippers within or that sense of that ability to go home and that they've always had but never really realized.

[00:25:41] Heather: And I think it's ultimately a coming home to themselves. And that's something I think about a lot before I, I do a talk, maybe there won't be, I. You know, maybe it won't be the 300 people in the room that will feel that way, but maybe there'll be three and, and that's enough for me. And then I, I focus in on honing on those three people.

[00:25:58] Ross: Wow. I love [00:26:00] what you're saying about, thank you, first of all, for being such a role model for us, because saying you're nervous before a keynote. Might surprise some people because you, you love doing it and you get energy from it. But I absolutely get that. It's like, when I'm facilitating, uh, a training or, or, or doing a, a talk or a lecture perhaps there is that nervousness, but there's also a mission we're on and I love the way you described it as a really mindful activity because if we're not out there looking at the people, looking at the energy in the room, maybe responding to questions, maybe switching up our tone or just being our human selves and we're not aware of what's going on in the room, then it's not gonna land.

[00:26:44] Ross: Which is why you are successful at what you do and you have a great presence and energy, and a great voice for a podcast, by the

[00:26:52] Heather: Oh, do you know, it's so funny. Someone just wrote on my feedback from a talk I did last week that I have a late night dj, voice, so it's very easeful. It just made me like giggle.

[00:27:06] Ross: A late,

[00:27:07] Ross: I think you've peaked. I think that's it. A late night DJ

[00:27:10] Heather: Yeah. I know. It's like, maybe I'll read you bedtime stories that maybe that'll be my new career.

[00:27:15] Heather: I'll, I'll branch into bedtime stories for people relaxing

[00:27:18] Heather: tone.

[00:27:19] Ross: brilliant. People sometimes say to me, um, oh, you could get voiceover work. And I'm like, well, I think it's already a very crowded market place, but um, but who knows? Maybe

[00:27:29] Ross: we'll explore that

[00:27:30] Heather: yeah. I was actually, I did a interview with, um, the BBC a while ago, and the guy on it with a producer was like, oh, you'd be great in audio books. And I was like, there you go. Squiggly career. We'll jump around.

[00:27:44] Ross: Yeah. Oh God, that will be fun.

[00:27:46] Heather: Yeah.

[00:27:46] Ross: Maybe it'll be an audio book of your own book.

[00:27:50] Heather: Maybe.

[00:27:51] Ross: what plans are there for Heather in the future? Anything that you can reveal to

[00:27:54] Ross: us yet.

[00:27:55] Heather: Yeah. Great question. I think I, I would like to write a book I, I [00:28:00] think there's a lot of. You know, habit stuff out there. It's, it's quite, the market's quite male dominated at the moment in terms of habit change as well. So I think a female voice would be quite nice. Um, and amongst that, but I think there's still, there's a little bit way for me to go before that maybe, and I'm not trying to be a perfectionist about it, but, I dunno, I think doing the keynotes and bringing all the stuff together for the talks actually makes you realize, you know, how then you could apply that to a book.

[00:28:27] Heather: And it's really helpful to have that structure and framework around it. so it's certainly something that I'd love to do in the future. I think for now. I think, traveling with work and, and, and speaking and meeting people, I, I really, I found it quite hard in Covid that, I, I loved meeting people virtually online, and I, I found that really, just so needed and now I just get so excited to.

[00:28:50] Heather: See people in face-to-face, in, in different countries with different cultures and different habits, struggles. And I think, certainly would love to the opportunity to travel a bit more now at work that the, the world is is, is opened up a little bit. I think that would be something that would really excite me.

[00:29:06] Heather: Ask me on any other day, I'll probably give you a different answer every day. depends if I've just come back from somewhere, you know, I've got, I haven't got that wanderlust, but, um, I used to do a bit of speaking before covid, you know, in, in different countries and and stuff.

[00:29:19] Heather: And then a lot of it went webinar, which I love. And it, it's wonderful, but there's nothing that beats, that feeling of looking someone in the eye and, and being able to really see, you know, how they absorb something and having that face-to-face chat afterwards. It's just so magic.

[00:29:34] Ross: Now, Heather, you've already been super generous with some exercises for us p supers, but is there any other takeaway you'd offer us to go away and reflect on or practice? Um,

[00:29:45] Heather: Yeah, I think less than a practice, or I suppose, what did I talk about? I talk about finding your why and, and asking yourself why is this important to me? And, you know, we often talk about in psychology, you need to ask yourself five whys. So you get a true why or be just annoying toddler and [00:30:00] keep saying, but why, but why, but why?

[00:30:01] Heather: And that'll help you uncover that intrinsic motivation. We talked about the importance of finding joy and tuning into those specific things to like help, you know, create that craving like Russ, you know, before you go for your cycle, listening to the birds, feeling the wind in your face, all of those wonderful, you know, going down the hill, going wee, all of those things that bring you joy, and how that makes the rest easy.

[00:30:22] Heather: and another thing, I think that is quite important for people to remember is, you know, we're so often looking for that secret sauce, you know, and we're always looking for that secret when it comes to, you know, long-term change. And I always say, you know, it's time to realize that there is no secret.

[00:30:37] Heather: Like, you know, if you keep telling yourself, you know, the reason that you haven't achieved your life goals or your health goals yet is because you haven't found that secret sauce yet, it's time to realize that you are the secret sauce and you know, the only equipment, the only ingredient, the only super food you need is you.

[00:30:52] Heather: And, ultimately, you know, you can change your habits and as your life if you've got the right framework for change. and I, I think that's what's what behavioral science gives. It gives that method in the recipe for health, like we talked about at the very start. how to take all of these ingredients like what to eat or, you know, sleep habits or managing your stress better and put them into the context of your life so it's most relevant for you.

[00:31:16] Heather: And I think that's really, really important, you know, to know that you are the secret sauce and the solution doesn't come outside of you. It actually comes from within you.

[00:31:24] Ross: That that's really super useful and powerful and I also see a merchandising opportunity there, Heather, frankly, I'll be disappointed if later this year I don't see on your websites t-shirts that say you

[00:31:38] Heather: I do. Secret sauce. Yeah, you were the, I love that. Maybe I'll get a sponsorship. Heinz or someone like, you know Heather, their secret recipe only ingredient is you.

[00:31:49] Ross: Nice. Oh my gosh. Look, we're getting so many potential, um, endorsements here.

[00:31:55] Ross: we didn't mention my tea was Yorkshire Tea, by the

[00:31:57] Heather: Yeah.

[00:31:58] Ross: Yorkshire Tea. But [00:32:00] Heather prefers a whole variety of tea, but including the Irish one that's called

[00:32:05] Heather: Berries,

[00:32:07] Ross: Berries, which I have sampled recently on my, on my trips to Dublin.

[00:32:12] Heather: Yay.

[00:32:12] Ross: Now Heather, I've got a new question for guests. and it's, do you have a favorite episode of People's

[00:32:17] Ross: Soup?

[00:32:18] Heather: yes I do. and it might be salience bias because I've listened to it twice. but it's your episode with Lou, you're old friend. And I, I think there's just so many moments in it where I felt my heart just warm. I think, you know, she just sounded like the most wonderful person. And I think when she talked about love being her value, that just kind of broke my heart into pieces.

[00:32:40] Heather: And I thought she was just a beautiful, compassionate person. And like, you know, the importance of creating, she talked about the importance of creating a toolkit, for anxiety, and she talked about the importance of finding pleasure and joy and I dunno. it just really resonated with me in, in so many ways.

[00:32:55] Heather: So I really, I really enjoyed that one. I also enjoyed your singing, of Kaleigh Perry Roar on that one.

[00:33:01] Ross: Oh gosh. Another one where I sang and I'm absolutely delighted Beyond words, you've, chosen that episode. It's, it's just touched me. It's very special episode with a very special person who's no longer with us. So, so thank you. Thank you

[00:33:14] Ross: for that.

[00:33:15] Heather: and you could really tell, you know, you had such a, a wonderful connection with each other as well, which I just thought was quite special.

[00:33:21] Ross: Oh, thank you. and Heather, thank you so much for coming on the show. I, suspect we could both keep chatting to each other for hours. it's been such a joy to have you on the show and hear more about your work and your approach and how you, you really live it. You said earlier that you want to really live your approach and hell, you certainly do.

[00:33:43] Ross: So thank you for being such a role model for us all, and thank you for the work you do. Hats off to you. Thank

[00:33:49] Heather: Thank you.

[00:33:49] Heather: Ross. Really appreciate that.

[00:33:51] Ross: That's it. Part two in the bag. [00:34:00] Thanks so much to have that for being so open and generous and all that she's shared. Don't forget to get yourself over to Heather's web page and sign up for a free bite-sized habits costs.

[00:34:10] We'd love to get your reviews. So please let us know what you think on the socials or drop me an email or a voice note on WhatsApp.

[00:34:16] Ross: If you like this episode of the podcast, please, could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on, and particularly if you're on Apple Podcasts, the Apple charts are really important in the podcast industry.

[00:34:35] Ross: And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be. I'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at people soup dot pod gmail.com. On Twitter, we are at People Soup Pod on Instagram at People dot Soup.

[00:34:52] Ross: And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. thanks to Andy Klan for his Spoon Magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocal. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now. Ross. I must say my face is hurting cause I'm smiling so much.

[00:35:11] Ross: Oh,

[00:35:12] Heather: so fun. I'm just like, My, I feel like my cheeks are sore.