Hello ladies.
Welcome to this week's
episode of Hourly to Exit.
Today we're gonna talk about
what happens if you want to
use a thought leader's book
in your course or workshop.
Now, I've received this
question a few times
recently, so I wanted to.
Pop in and have a
conversation about that.
Now, for some of you, someone
has literally written the
book on the topic that
you wanna cover in your
course or workshop, so
it makes sense to you to
use, portions of the text.
Maybe there's some examples
in there, some insights
for you to put it on slides
or to incorporate it into
the accompanying workbook.
you would very happily give
the thought leader credit.
You would also encourage
everyone to buy the book since
you personally believe that it
is required reading for anyone
doing work in your space.
So that would be fair, right?
They'd get credit.
You'd encourage everyone
to buy the book.
Of course, I cannot
answer that for you
because that would be
giving you legal advice.
So whether or not you
can use someone else's
material without asking for
permission is fact specific.
By that, it means.
If and how you can use
somebody else's material
depends entirely on
the specific facts
related to your use.
So that can only be determined
on a one-on-one business after
looking at the totality of the
issues surrounding the use.
However, because it comes
up so often, I am going
to give you a mini lecture
and then I will talk about
how to get permission to
use a book in your course.
So I wanna start by
separating this use from
teachers in a classroom.
People will often refer
to their experience,
being in the classroom, at
college level, typically,
in academic setting.
And that, frequently they'll
get handouts that include,
other people's work.
So this does not apply to you.
This does not apply to your
expertise based business.
You are.
Leading workshops or
teaching courses for profit.
This is your business.
This is a commercial
use, not an academic
use or educational use.
So that, use by teachers
in the classroom is not
applicable to your use.
Secondly, I wanna make sure
that we don't ignore the
realness of the items that
you get off the internet.
intellectual property
rights are assets.
I know you know this 'cause
I'm always telling you.
but, Still, there's something
about being able to download
something off the internet,
without paying for it,
that somehow people aren't
completely understanding
the real, ability to possess
something that you can
download off the internet.
So intellectual property
rights, I mean, they
are real assets.
They are owned and registered.
They can be bought and sold.
They can be
licensed or loaned.
They can be divided.
They can even be inherited.
So in our particular
circumstance, when we're
talking about books, we're
talking about copyrights,
is the specific type of
intellectual property rights
that we're talking about.
So as a brief refresher,
copyright protection
grants, the owner, the
exclusive rights to do
all of the following.
To reproduce the work, i
e make copies to create
derivative works such
as, turning a book into
a movie, distribute
copies to the public.
That means like to
sell it to the public.
Perform the work, take
a play and it on stage.
Display the work publicly,
like artwork or transmit
the work publicly, such
as over the airwaves.
And you also have the
exclusive right to authorize
anyone else to exercise
any of those rights.
So that would be
such as a license, a
publishing agreement, a
distribution agreement.
intellectual property rights
that the copyright owner of
that book are just as much
of an asset to that owner as
their car or their house, they
have just as much right to the
exclusive use of their car.
Or their house as they
do to their intellectual
property rights.
So I want you to think
about the exception to
those exclusive rights as
narrowly as you think about
exceptions to exclusive
use of your property.
I mean, you don't think that,
I have exclusive use to my
property unless, I'm not gonna
notice that you're using it.
the exceptions to
use of your property.
I'm not talking about physical
property, would be, you know,
Emergencies or some sort of
legal action that results
in an IMiD domain .Process,
but you don't get to use
somebody else's property,
just because it'd be more
convenient or you don't get to
use somebody else's property
because they're out of town
and they'll never notice,
or you don't get to use the
property because, it's so
large that, know, if I just.
Go to the back of their
property and do some hunting.
No one's ever gonna notice
it's still their property.
They still have exclusive
rights about how that
property is used.
And the same thing applies to
intellectual property assets.
Someone owns the rights
to exploit it exclusively.
So I'm going to use this
as an opportunity to talk
about my parallels between,
inventory in the physical
sense of inventory, the kind
that you can put on financial
statement and the way I like
to talk about inventory in our
expertise based businesses.
So when we look at the.
Definition of inventory.
We have raw material, we
have works in progress,
and we have finished goods.
And by the way, I did
do a deep dive about
the parallels, about.
Taking inventory of our
intellectual property in
episode, 53 if you are
interested in, in finding out
more about that, conversation.
But to briefly recap
it, I talk about, the
raw materials in our
expertise based business.
Those are the foundational
parts of our expertise.
So those are original ideas
and the firsthand experiences
that we have, probably as an
employee, as we're growing
our area of expertise.
As we go out on our own,
the client work will
help build our expertise.
We might get certifications,
we'll do trainings,
continuing education.
Maybe we do our own research
and even the work that we
engage subcontractors to do.
' cause a lot of times we'll
have a subcontractor who knows
something better than we do,
'cause that's their expertise.
And so all these things
are the raw materials
that are the foundational
parts of our expertise.
And then we move on to
our works in progress.
So as we develop our
expertise, we start to notice
patterns and we start to
create internal resources
so we can be, more efficient
and more predictable
in the results that we
deliver to our clients.
So these are things
like our system and, and
processes, SOPs, templates,
frameworks, and methodologies
that we use internally.
Those are our
works in progress.
And then we have our
finished products.
When we develop our expertise
to the point that we're ready
to graduate from one-on-one
services to creating scalable
revenue streams, and we create
those finished products.
I look at that as our
finished product inventory.
So those are things that
we are selling externally,
like group training
and courses and books.
templates that we're selling
and when we're licensing
our expertise as well.
So from an inventory
perspective, the thought
leader's book, that is
her finished product.
It is the culmination of her
. Expertise and she's used
it to package it into a
new revenue stream that
she is selling for profit.
And so, It reminds me of the
Picasso example where we've
all heard this one where
someone comes up to him in
a restaurant and they ask
him to a drawing on a napkin
and he does a little drawing
and then he charges her, a
million bucks, I guess it is.
And like, why you just,
wrote that on a napkin.
Well, it's, the reason I was
able to do that is 'cause I
spent a lifetime perfecting
my craft, and that's what
thought leader's book is
a career of perfecting her
craft and putting it into
this finished product.
And so she's earned the
right to the exclusive
use of that product.
And that same book when it
is in your hands, is raw
material for your inventory.
It is something that
you are going to be
using as an influence.
or at literally an element
of your course or workshop.
So, whether we're using
it as an influence is a
separate conversation.
If you literally want to use
parts of her book in your
course or workshop, then that
is the same as, the steering
wheel in a car, like you don't
get to get the parts for your
finished product for free.
You do need to pay for that.
That is a cost of
doing business.
I don't think there is any
scenario where we would
think that if it was a
physical product that we
would be able to take someone
else's finished product.
So if I am a screw
manufacturer, screws are my
finished product and I make,
cars and I need their screw.
So their finished product
is my raw material.
I pay for that raw
material to include in
my finished product.
so, I want us to think about
other people's finished
products in the same way
when we are using them as raw
materials for our finished
products there's my lecture.
So think about, do you
really think it would be
reasonable to use somebody
else's finished product?
As raw materials for our
finished products and
generally, you know, I'm an
intellectual profit lawyer.
I am going to say what you
need to do for the most part,
and there will always be
exceptions, but for the most
part, you need to purchase the
right to acquire the right.
It may not cost you anything,
but it probably will acquire
the right to use somebody
else's finished product as
a raw material for yours.
So securing permission is
really the only way you can
ensure that the intended use
is not an infringement of
the copyright owner's rights.
I mentioned fair use briefly.
I never teach people
how to use fair use.
Fair use is a defense.
So, I will say, when I
was in the film business,
I, was a motion picture
lawyer for about 10 years,
and we would have to
make fair use judgements
as we were shooting.
let's say we're shooting
inside of a, grocery store,
and so your characters
are walking through the
aisles, you're not going
to clear every single, box
of cereal and, soda that
shows up on screen as your
characters walk through
the aisles, but you will.
So we would have to make fair
use judgements about, what was
on screen in the background.
What could we use?
I.
As a fair use and what
we would either need
to secure the rights
to use or to blur out.
Sometimes you shoot something
and then it comes out later.
We would do, this
is a little aside.
We would look at
dailies every day.
We would see what
was shot that day.
And as the production lawyer,
you had to look through the
dailies and make sure that
anything that appeared on
screen was cleared for use.
So if you, got the dailies,
you didn't know that they
were gonna do something,
that day, and then you
get the dailies like
what, the main characters.
stands right in front
of the cereal aisle and
clear as day, or, corn
Flakes and, Cheerios, and
they're having an argument.
even the context
sometimes mattered.
if something wonderful is
happening, then something
terrible is happening.
Like, eh, maybe you
have to blur it, you
and you can't use it.
All that to say is that,
once again, fair use,
extremely fact specific,
and it's something that
needs to be looked at
after you have all the
facts in place and you know
what's gonna happen there.
It's not something that
can be judged upfront.
All right.
So with that in mind,
if you're going to use
anybody else's materials,
anyone else's materials
in yours, then you
should secure permission.
So what's the
process for that?
First, you want to find out
is it in fact protected?
Now, if you're talking about
a current thought leader,
and I'm assuming these are.
Current thought leaders
books, then the likelihood
is extremely high that
book is eligible for
copyright protection.
But you know, as a formality,
we would confirm that,
maybe it's something from
before, like, I don't know
how long ago was, things
like, how to win friends
and influence people, like
maybe that was published
during a time when copyright
notices were required
and it didn't have one.
So back then, if you didn't,
literally didn't have that,
see in a circle and the formal
copyright notice on there,
you, it wouldn't be protected.
So maybe it's something
that slipped through
the cracks there.
Maybe it was published
so long ago that the.
period of protection has
passed and is now in the
public domain, or maybe
it falls into a category
of works that are not
copyrightable, like facts
or natural phenomenon.
so it's possible that, the
book or the portions of the
book that you wanna reproduce,
you, obviously you're not
copying the whole thing, but
that the portion of the book
that you want to reproduce
is not copyrightable.
but for the purposes of this
conversation, let's assume
that it is copyrightable
and is, protectable.
So now you may need
to identify the owner.
it could be as simple as
looking at the title page.
So the back of the title page
there will be the copyright
statement where it will say
who the copyright owner is.
that's typically found the
back of the copyright page.
However, that would state
who the copyright owner was
at the time of publication.
That can change a couple
of things could be that
either the writer who I'm
just gonna assume is the
thought leader is no longer
the copyright owner or never
was the copyright owner.
So let's say for instance,
the thought leader worked for.
I b m, maybe it was, I
can remember his name,
Jack Welsh gm, right?
So maybe when he wrote
a well-known book and
maybe when he wrote it,
it was in his role as c
e O of General Electric.
And General Electric actually
owns the copyright in
his book, not Jack Welsh.
that also may apply, that
maybe, I write a novel at, my.
Business is Aaron
oss la P e l c.
And someday, I sell it.
And then when I sell
my business, maybe I
also sell the work that
is the underlying, big
idea underneath the
business that I sell.
And so I also sell the
copyright in the book,
to the acquiring company.
So it could be that, the
book was written for somebody
else as a work for hire, or
it was sold in the interim.
Or I pass it on to my
son when it's time for
me to leave this realm.
So there are a number of
reasons why the copyright
owner listed in the
book may not, be the
current owner as the time
that you wanna use it.
Another way you can find
out is that you can go to
the us copyright has public
records, and now as you know,
not everything is always
registered, but if it's been
registered and that's been
up to date, you search it
by title and it will show
you who the copyright owner
is as of time of searching
based on the public records.
So we identify who the owner
is to the best of our ability.
And then we identify what
rights do we need, what
exactly do we wanna do
with the work that we get
from the thought leader?
So, You'll wanna identify
which material you wanna use.
And then you look at that
bundle of rights, that
compromise, copyrights, and
we talked about them before,
reproduction, distribution,
display performance.
And so which of those bundle
of rights do you need for
what you wanna do with it?
let's say you wanna be able
to make copies, probably
if you're gonna include
it in your workbooks, and
you're gonna distribute
that to the participants.
Maybe you wanna
create a derivative.
So maybe you wanna use
something that you found
in the book to create a
script for role-playing.
especially like, let's say
you're doing role-playing
in your workshop, and so
you're using that as a script
that's creating a derivative.
maybe you want to
distribute copies of it.
So if this is a course that
you're selling online, then
you would need the right
to distribute copies of it.
perform the work, display
the work, transmit the work.
or to authorize a third party
to do any of those things,
such as if you're creating a
workshop that you will license
to other people, then you
need to be able to, authorize
third parties to also make
copies, distribute, et cetera.
So what rights do you need?
And then you need to contact
that owner and you may need
to negotiate a payment.
Hopefully we've found
the correct owner and
we can contact them.
it may be that, yes, the
owner of the copyright is
still the thought leader, but
the thought leader Licensed
all of the rights to, give
permissions to the publisher.
So that's not at all unusual.
If you go the traditional
publisher route, you sign
a publishing deal, the
publisher gets exclusive
rights to distribute the
book, but it also gets what
are called ancillary rights,
which would include the
right to control, you who.
gets permission, and the
ability to license portions of
the book and charge a fee for
it, or just give permission,
for academic settings, that
will often be a right that's
granted to the publisher.
I.
So you may need to go to the
publisher for that, which
actually, frankly is simpler.
and, sometimes there will
be, directions right on the
copyright page about how
to contact the publisher to
get rights, cleared for use.
And there are also websites
that assist in this, one
of them, copyright.com.
It is a copyright clearance
marketplace where you
go in there and you
search for publications.
Let's say there's an article
in Forbes Magazine that you
wanna use and you can go in
there and, if the publication
or the publishing house has an
arrangement with the copyright
clearance, marketplace, then
it'll say right there, like,
you can license it for us.
it'll ask you like what the
use will be like, such as
business use, and they may
already have preset fees.
and it'll makes it.
Fairly simple.
If, you do have a third party,
clearance house that can help
you with that and then whether
or not there is a fee that
you might not wanna offer
one, but they may ask for one.
Right?
And then you want to get
the permission in writing.
the best case scenario is it
is original and ink signed.
By that I mean, wet signature.
Someone's literally printing
something out, using a pen
and signing it, and you get
a copy of that, original
ink signed, permission.
However, when we're talking
about using permissions in
our courses or workshops, we
are absolutely, asking to use
it on a non-exclusive basis.
where it's not a transfer of
ownership rights of any kind.
And so in writing
can be by email.
you can get non-exclusive
license to use copyrighted
materials without
it being in writing.
You can even get it orally.
I wouldn't recommend that
'cause you wanna definitely
have a written record.
so having it by email.
Would be sufficient.
However, I would say that
the bigger the investment
would be, the more formality
you wanna go through.
If you're asked to
pay a license fee,
that's substantial.
Obviously, you want to
have more formality than if
someone says, sure, go ahead.
If you're going to be making
a substantial investment in
resources, let's say you're
incorporating it into a book.
And then you're gonna go to
print with this book, and
so there's a big investment.
Then you absolutely have more
formalities if you're going to
making that kind of investment
something that you're
putting, in a digital course.
And not that you shouldn't
go through the formalities,
you should, but if you're
something that's going to
go into your course that
if something happened
and you had to take it
out, you don't have to.
get a second mortgage on your
house in order to do this.
Then the formalities
should be consistent with
the level of investment.
You whether or not you have
lawyers involved and have
things like that consistent
with the use, for that item.
So, what is the
written permission?
It can be pretty simple.
people think it's
gonna be a big deal.
It really is not.
Again, you could be
by email once you know
who you're asking.
You do wanna make sure you're
asking the right person.
it doesn't need to be a
long, complicated document.
Absolutely can be a
one pager if it's.
In writing, and by
then, I mean on paper.
but the minimums
are fairly simple.
you just wanna make sure
you have the following.
You wanna just say who
you are and what you do.
You wanna have an accurate but
brief, identification of what
material exactly you're using.
I wanna use the
graphic on page 25.
or I wanna use the entire,
chapter perhaps, And so
identify specifically what
you want to use, how you're
going to use the content.
I'm going to be using
this in my d e I training.
I'm gonna be using this
in an evergreen course.
I'm gonna be putting this
in my book, how you're
going to use the content,
and where you will use it,
you seminar, webinar, et
cetera, online, in person.
how you're gonna use it,
and then for how long you're
gonna use the content.
So how long you're gonna use
it is gonna be very different.
if you're giving a, a speech,
at a conference versus if
you're going to be creating
an evergreen course that's
gonna be available online
for, as long as the material
is useful and relevant.
and, know, whether or
not you offer payment
that will be your choice.
if you don't, and the rights
holder may request payment,
and that will be an analysis
for you to, understand the
value of having this material
included, against what
they're asking you to pay.
So it may turn out that
it doesn't make sense from
a financial perspective.
and if you do ask for it by
email and you do want the full
formalities, you can still
send it by email, ask them
to print it out, ask them to
sign it and return it to you.
and scanned copy
would be fine.
so long as it's not a
transfer of ownership,
in which case you'd want
an original copying.
All right, so, When you're,
creating a course using
somebody else's book, if you
do it without permission, it
could result in legal action.
worst case scenario of course
is someone be suing you.
Almost nobody starts there.
Almost everyone starts
with a cease and desist.
but that's not something
that you wanna have happen.
you will have invested.
Time and resources in
creating your workshop,
creating your course.
Before you put in those
investments, you wanna
make sure that you
have permission to use
everything that is in there.
And in addition to
losing those resources
that you've committed,
let's say you have to.
Claw it back from someone
that you've sold it to.
What if you have to tell
a client that you have,
let's say you've licensed
your workshop to them for
them to use throughout
their organization, and
now you have to retract
permission for that.
How mortifying would that be?
And so I just want you to,
take a conservative view
if you're going to use
somebody else's materials.
To make money for this to
be an important part of
your business, something
that you are selling to your
clients, something that you're
building your reputation on.
You want to make sure that you
have the rights to that and
that it's not going to be a
source of either legal risk or
reputational risk because you
haven't cleared those things.
So make sure you do that.
And, just one other thing
is that, if you're selling
the course on a third party
platform, they may have their
own requirements for you
to make statements about,
what you can put on there.
Um, cause they don't wanna
get involved with, take down
notices and things like that.
and so, Once again, making
sure that everything that
you, incorporate into
your courses, into your
workshops that you're gonna
be using to generate income
that they are cleared.
I hope this was
helpful to you.
I love your questions, so
please do not hesitate if
you have any and if you
have any questions that are
specific to your circumstance.
In other words, you
need some legal advice,
book an errand call.
I look forward to
hearing from you.
Thanks guys.