Everyone wins or loses together.

I've had two members in the team, both very competent, very talented, but they couldn't stand each other's guts.

That's creating a toxic environment.

What I've learned is never try to shove that under the rug.

I got them in the same room.

I said, it's very clear to me and to the rest of the organization that you can't stand each other.

That's creating a toxic environment here.

My ask of you is you're not, not going to leave the room till you've really put these things on the table.

You've got to take that head on.

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Here's Ben.

Welcome back to Leave the team.

Get ready to dive into the world of enterprise software with razat Gaurav, the CEO leading the charge over at Planview.

With over 4000 customers worldwide, over 1500 employees including back to the company.

Piece of that.

Including 59 out of the Fortune 100 companies, Planview is driving force in helping businesses navigate the complexities of strategic planning and portfolio management.

Razad himself brings over 20 years of experience to the table with a knack for sparking innovation driven growth and scaling tech businesses to new heights.

And he's not just a CEO, he's a trusted advisor to top executives, boards and investors, guiding them through the ever evolving landscape of digital transformation.

Rasat, welcome to Lead the team.

Well, thanks for having me Ben.

Good to be here.

So there's often a gap between setting an ambitious company vision and getting employees energized to execute it.

How have you approached bridging this gap in your career?

I think the bridge between a bold and a purposeful vision and actually achieving the outcomes you want is something called execution.

Right.

You've got to be able to execute.

And one of the things I've learned over the years is you've got to.

Over 60% of what gets you to execute is really having the best talents and culture in an organization.

Right.

Especially in a business like ours, our people are only in our biggest assets.

Right.

Without the people, the company is nothing.

And so talent and culture play a huge role in execution.

Obviously, aligning the outcome orientation to the way you measure and the way you orient your metrics and your incentives has a material role to play there as well.

Right.

And again, I've learned through that over the years.

And then the last thing I'll say is ensuring that your mission and vision is not just on PowerPoint slides or on posters of hallways in the office, but it's something that you're really living and breathing every day.

And every opportunity you have, you are looking at your business, every facet of your business, through the same lens of your mission, vision, and core values.

Right.

So I'll give you an example of this.

Maybe that'll put it in framework.

I came on board to Plan View just under four years ago, and the company came about with three different entities coming together and merging.

Right.

And by the way, these three companies were historically competing, competing companies.

They were competitors.

Right.

So you can imagine it was fairly emotionally charged environment.

Right.

Every company, every entity was very proud of its heritage.

Understandably so.

Right.

And, and yet through it all, there was a lot of density of expertise and knowledge and technologies that we could harness.

So beyond my usual sort of listening, discovery kind of phase, I had to very quickly mobilize and create one Plan View identity across the organization.

And while letting people be proud and, and, and sort of celebrating in the heritage that they brought, really develop a new identity called Plan View Identity.

Right.

And, and I didn't have a year, two years to do that.

I got.

I had to do that very quickly because that was very foundational in, in, in helping us execute and deliver on what our customers needed from us, what our shareholders needed from us, et cetera.

Right.

So one of the first things I did was work with my broader leadership team.

I had to mobilize the right leadership team.

And then with that leadership team, we did a lot of work in aligning on what our mission is, what the sense of purpose is as an organization, what our vision is for the future in terms of how we'll make that mission come to life, and then what our core values need to be, what behaviors we expect ourselves and hold ourselves accountable to as an organization.

And we got some help from Dr.

Francis Fry.

She's a world expert in organizational trust and culture from Harvard Business School.

She doesn't just have the buzzwords that a lot of academics or consultants have.

She's very brass tax, very sort of authentic and cuts through all the, all the sort of the bs.

And she made us go through a process over a few months.

What would it typically taken us three times longer.

Right.

And it was our mission, vision and core values.

But she facilitated that process in a brilliant, brilliant way with help from her partner, Ann Morrison.

And once we had that, of course we went through iteration.

We involved our broader organization and getting their feedback and input and everything.

But in many ways, establishing that framework was the easy part.

Right.

The, the, the real work started in how do you institutionalize this, this mission, vision and, and core values and really make it a core part of the cultural fabric and identity of the business.

Right.

And that's where we started doing the substantive.

These three companies were rivals.

They were, they were rivals.

They were competing companies.

Yeah.

It's like imagine your three favorite football teams.

Yeah.

Coming together and you're like, wait a minute, you've all got great quarterbacks.

Yeah.

But you've now, hey, Texas A.

M.

Hey, Texas.

Hey, Alabama.

We're going to put you into one big team and we're going to let the everybody fight it out.

No, you can't really fight it out.

You got to come together.

I mean, this sells a recipe for disaster or, or for at least a lot of people quitting, leaving, getting angry.

Well, that was the one thing that, what helped most to bring the people together.

Like you said, you had a framework, but that was just the start.

I mean, just a start.

But look, I think to your point, the risk of it being a disaster is very high.

Right.

But, but egos, I mean, where do the egos go?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's.

Yeah, I think it starts with people.

Right.

So.

So you can't have three quarterbacks.

Well, maybe you have some backups and things, but, but you know, you on the field, you have one quarterback.

Right.

And, and so the first thing was make decisions, organizational decisions on those topics.

Right.

And, and look, as leaders, we all have to make tough decisions.

Right.

And, and you make decisions with the best information you have in the most ob.

Make those decisions.

I had the benefit that I was coming from.

No baggage.

Right.

I didn't have any.

You weren't from either one of the three companies?

I wasn't.

I was not from any either one of those three companies.

So you were the fourth team.

Yeah.

Or I was.

I was sort of the person trying to take these three, to use your football analogy, take these three teams and really create one team.

Right.

So we had to rationalize the organization and make tough decisions on who plays what position and what role.

And it ended up being a mix.

Even in our leadership team, it was a mix of people that came from different parts of different.

One of these three entities.

Right.

And then once, once you make that, those decisions, we went through this framework of establishing our mission, vision, core values, which, by the way, just going through that process and allowing for dialogue helped build trust.

Right.

Because it showed to the people who were mobilized in different positions in the organization that there was an openness to really establish the go forward future of the company as opposed to have preconceived notions on what it should be.

Right.

And then the third aspect is where I was going, that execution.

How do you execute on this?

So it's not just lying on PowerPoint slides or on hallways of offices.

That's where the rubber really ridge hits the road.

Right.

And so today, the way we recruit people, the way we promote people internally, the way we recognize performance, everything is through the lens of our core values.

Right.

And when we make our investment decisions, part of what I need to do as the CEO of a company, or the most profound things I can, or impactful things I can do, is to figure out how to allocate capital and resources.

Right.

And we go through our budgeting processes.

A lot of those are for the next year.

Some of these are longer term.

Right.

I've got to do that with the lens of how does it reinforce my mission and vision and core values as an organization.

Right.

So in that early phase in your core values being so critical, when you came in, did you say, hey, these are the core principles and values that I feel are important for a successful team, or did you say, based on these companies, this is what their values are and what the people seem to focus on or customers.

How did you.

Yeah, and this is where having an experienced facilitator helps.

Right.

And we were fortunate to convince Dr.

Francis Fry to help play that facilitation role.

And so instead of me just saying this is what I think is the beliefs I had, I think we gave my core leadership team an opportunity to kind of surface what were the key beliefs all of us had.

Right.

And I was just one cog in the wheel.

My voice was at the same level as all the other leaders.

I mean, there was like ten of us.

Right.

And we did that.

We did take a look at what the three individual companies has as their core values.

By the way, two of them actually actually had that articulated, the third one did not.

Right.

Not uncommon though.

Not uncommon.

Big organizations not even have their mission or vision really clarified.

And to be fair, even the two companies that had their mission, vision articulated, no one really cared about them.

People didn't talk about them.

And it wasn't part of the core.

Fabric on the website.

But not in the hearts and minds of the.

Yeah, it was definitely on the website, it was in their recruitment side, etc.

But it wasn't really in the core fabric of day to day work.

Right.

So we did that.

But then the other thing we did, and thanks to Dr.

Francis Fry and Anne Morrison, they also shared with us what other companies that we admire and love, how they think about their mission, vision and core values.

So we had all these different inputs and then the key to this was us as a leadership team making time in the evenings and on the weekends to have a discussion and debate about it.

Right.

And like I said, allowing room to have those discussions and debates helped build trust because it showed that we're really going to be able to converge here.

And frankly, it also showed our thoughts were not so divergent even though people came from different parts of the organization.

Right.

So it helped build trust and not make that an endless process, allow the room for it, but then converge and make a decision.

Right.

And I think going through that process with an experienced facilitator really helped us get through that element.

And then executing on that is where.

The secret sauce is in that process.

Before we maybe get into a little bit of the execution side of it, was there one question that was helpful to you and the team or something that was.

That really helped rally people and bring them together?

Yeah, look, I think when it, when it came to the mission, what we all aligned on is the mission needs to be long lasting.

You don't go back and revisit your mission every year.

Right.

It needs to transcend time and it needs to inspire our employees, our customers and our ecosystem.

Right?

Ideally.

Yeah, ideally.

So that's what we anchored on.

Right.

Is not something it needs to allow for enough Runway for us to, for it to be relevant long term for us.

And then secondly, it needs to be, to be inspiring.

So it sets the kind of the foundation for the sense of purpose of the organization.

Right.

When it came to core values, I'll tell you, I mean the, the key insight that we got was like a lot of people Talk about organizational culture and what is it?

And there's a lot of, like, it's, there's a lot of ways of defining it.

But, but the best way I've, I've seen it kind of come through to me in a very simplistic way is to say, like, how do, how do employees.

How do people behave in that organization when no one is looking?

I thought that was a superb way of looking at that.

Because, because, because when, when you're aligned on exhibiting, you know, behaviors when no one is looking, that's really ultimately the essence of, of your organizational culture.

And, and, and, and then the last thing I'll say is we want to make sure that at least us, as, as our organization, we took a framework.

Our customers, our employees, our customers and our employees were on an equal footing with our shareholders.

It's not like one is more important than the other.

It's sort of like three legs to the stool.

Right?

And it was important that.

And so the ethos we came up with is that, look, customer success plus employee success is what earns us the right to have business or shareholder success.

Right?

And that's something we've rallied on from that time frame, and we still sort of live it every day.

And that became a strong underpinning to all this work we did around mission, vision, and core values.

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So it sounds like you went through that process and basically came out like a.

An incredible framework.

And now you've said the word execution and people might break out in a sweat like, okay, now we gotta do what.

Yeah, and keep in mind, right, like, when we started this process, like, 60, 70% of the people even in the leadership team had never worked with each other.

You see what I mean?

So while we are going through this process, the process, I mean, the outcome of this being the mission, vision, and core values were important, don't get me wrong.

And they were important for the organization, but as important was the process itself, because we were building.

We were getting to know each other at a deep level, you know?

Yeah, I wrote down a difficult process is a can be a Supportive way to develop and build trust versus, hey, we gotta get through this as quickly as possible because we gotta start delivering shareholder value, which is a lot of people's.

We're gonna rush this thing.

It sounds like you took your time.

You're like, wait a minute.

How we do this is as important as the actual outcome we get.

Yeah.

And taking the time was not like elongating the process.

We went through it in a fairly quick time frame.

But allowing yourself time to have those discussions.

Right.

And that's why I said a lot of these were in the evenings, a lot of these were on the weekends.

Yeah, you said weekends.

I noted that.

You're like, hey.

And it was partly the commitment from this leadership team to get to know each other, to really.

I mean, you can't have a team without the team members really knowing each other.

Right.

I mean, I don't want to talk about the super bowl game last night, but.

But.

But I mean, each of those teams that comes through, right.

Like.

Like, it comes through that these team members really know each other.

They know each other's fabric.

They know how to anticipate each other.

They know each other's context and.

And the sport we're in, which is in the sport of business and enterprise software.

It's a team sport.

And part of it is like, no one person can be successful while everyone else fails, or vice versa, because everyone wins or loses together in this.

Right.

And that's the mindset that I know a lot of sports teams have, but frankly, is so relevant in organizational teams as well.

Well, it's something for people to really think about what you said.

I think it's easy for people.

People to skip over this, but leaders, dear.

Does your team really know each other?

I have worked on, in my corporate career back in the day, plenty of teams where I did not know how many kids, the people I worked with had.

They didn't know what I was doing.

We really did not know each other.

And we'd have to get deep down into the personal details.

But if you don't really know the person well.

Yeah.

How can you adjust your communication style?

That's exactly right.

How do you know to talk to them otherwise you're talking to them like a robot.

It's really.

It's really a valuable thing.

Is there.

How do you develop the trust?

How do you develop the trust?

You know, do you have a story in your career where maybe someone didn't trust you or you didn't trust them, and then you got to know them better and helped Accelerate that.

Yeah.

A few times over my career, right.

I've been in situations where I've had two members in the team, both very competent, very talented, but they couldn't stand each other's guts, right?

They just hated each other.

And it was just egos and heads getting in the way, like what you were saying earlier, right?

And, and, and what I've learned is never try to shove that under the rug, right?

You've got to take that head on, right?

And I'll give you this example.

I, I remember I was.

I was living in London a few years ago, and, and these two people who were just so talented, each of them, you know, but their heads were getting in the way and they just couldn't stand to work with each other.

They couldn't.

When they got into the same room together, there was tension, right?

And by the way, each of them, when they came and talked to me, they were saying the same things, but they couldn't say the same things to each other, right?

It was one of those situations.

And I mean, I was like, I've got to address this because they've either got to figure out how to work with each other or we've got to make some decisions on what to do, right?

And so I got them in the same room and I said, look, I just put it right out there, just addressed the elephant in the room head on and said, look, you're both extremely smart individuals.

I have so much respect for each one of you, but it's very clear to me and to the rest of the organization that you can't stand each other, right?

And that, by the way, that that's creating a toxic environment here, right?

Which is detrimental to the whole team.

And by the way, you, both of you and I, we on the same team.

We're not in different teams, right?

And, and, and I said, I also told them, like, both of you say the same things 90% of the time, but you just can't say the same things to each other, right?

So I said, I'm going to leave the room, okay?

And I.

My ask of you is you're not going to leave the room till you've really put these things on the table.

It's like an intervention, right?

And look, people are complicated, human beings are complicated.

But if you don't address these topics head on, you're going to have issues that keep festering and they just keep getting worse and worse and worse because each of these people, they were senior leaders, right?

So they had team members in their own organizations, too.

Right.

So they just kind of multiplies.

Yeah.

And I can guess that those.

Their dislike of each other was probably trickling down into their teams, because they would probably.

And then you had basically two verticals in your organization.

Yeah.

Not competing, but they're battling each other.

Yeah.

By the way, they stayed in the same room for about three hours.

Right.

Just the two of them.

Right.

Painful.

What I can tell you is, and this is many years ago today, they don't work in the same organization.

They've gone on to do different things.

They're better friends with each other than with me, and that's something I'm so proud of.

They ended up really bartering together and really working really well together going forward and developed a ton of trust.

But it took that intervention of putting things on the table, talking openly, plainly, constructively, but directly, and sorting through it, as opposed to shutting it under the rug.

And by the way, there was a risk that they could have come out of that room not having kind of talked through it.

There's always risk of that.

And then as leaders, you've got to make a decision, like, you can't keep the boat in the organization, let that toxicity perpetuate.

So why in that moment did you decide to leave the room?

Because, like a referee.

Because you.

Yeah, well, I.

I was there in the first 30 minutes, and then I said.

Because I wanted them to be able to talk to each other directly.

They were talking.

Yeah.

You gotta have a conduit.

Because I would.

In.

In many situations, I'm not always going to be there.

Right.

Like.

Like I grew up in Chicago, like when the Bulls, when.

When they're on the court.

Phil Jackson is on the court.

Right.

So.

So.

So Dennis Rodman and Jordan and Pippin have to know how to work with each other on the court.

Right.

Now they can come to the sidelines and get some coaching from.

From Phil Jackson.

Right.

So.

So.

So it was important that the two of them developed that trust.

The two of them put things on the table.

Right.

And talked through all that awkwardness in a direct way and came out of it in a way that they were able to work together, because I was not going to be able to base it every day, every week, every month.

Yeah.

Really, really good insight there.

And it makes a lot of sense.

And.

And I can suspect if you'd been in the room, they'd be deferring to you.

Yes.

Or what do you think?

This person, they don't do what they say you're going to do, and the other person deferring you and they weren't.

They were never really having a real conversation.

And the real thing is it doesn't really matter what I think.

It matters what each of you thinks.

Right?

Yeah.

It's interesting I think for leaders to think about that one, does your team really know each other?

And then creating that environment where they can and putting those expectations out there.

But then how are they knowing?

And then another one is what's the working relationship?

Yes.

How can you boost that so you can be more Phil Jackson versus the referee.

Yeah.

And a big nugget, big ingredient to making that happen is aligning the incentives.

And what you're measuring.

What are those metrics you're measuring?

We at planview, both in our own organization as well as in our products, we've really embraced the whole OKR framework.

It's just a framework like any other framework.

Right.

It's objectives and key results.

The whole sort of.

It was created by Google a few years ago and a lot of organizations, including intel and others have rolled that out.

But the key insight to that is twofold.

One, focus less on sort of measuring activity and rather focus more on measuring outcomes.

So outcomes versus activity.

And the second aspect is really align both cross functionally and in that organizational hierarchy, especially in large organizations, how they are all interconnected.

And so that's a fancy way of saying you've got to align incentives.

You've got to align the way you're measuring.

Because I've seen so many organization and I've sort of experienced that even in organizations that I've been a part of where incentives are not aligned, metrics are conflicting.

And guess what, it drives behaviors that are counterproductive.

Right.

Classic sales and operations.

There you go.

That's the worst or one of.

Yeah, yeah.

Way more business.

We're going to grow it.

We'll sell it for this price.

We'll do this, we'll do that.

And operations people are just like swimming.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

So today at Plan View, myself and all my the executive leadership team, we are measured on the same metrics.

We don't have different metrics.

Right.

And again, we win and we lose together.

Our bonus is tied to the exact same metrics.

We win, we lose together.

Yeah.

It's good, good to diving into your career so people are probably listening.

Wow.

Rosat's got a very interesting couple interesting career things he had to deal with there to to bring Plan View into being.

But digging back what was your first job and how does it still influence your leadership today?

Yeah, I mean my My, my first job was in my freshman year in college.

I, you know, I, I, I, I try to figure out which is the job that would give me the most number of hours and pay me the highest amount of money on campus.

And I was constrained to only work on campus, I could only look on campus and I was studying engineering.

So I had a pretty hectic workload, like a, like a school load.

But I needed, I needed to work.

And so I took on.

My first job was campus security.

I was a campus security guy, right.

And I could work nights, weekends, holidays and all that kind of stuff.

And they give you a nice jacket, they give you a utility belt, a mag light, so you felt like you were important.

Anyway, that was my first job.

But out of, my first real job until it's out of college was I got recruited out of college by a couple of different management consulting firms.

They'd like to hire engineers and then they make you go through a kind of a whole boot camp and they throw you on projects and you learn through that process.

It's almost like a continuation of grad school in some ways.

And so I was a rookie consultant and it was such an amazing way to start my career.

I was so lucky to be in that position because it felt like you were still in college.

There were a lot of other kids of my age, we just recently graduated, but we had coaches and mentors assigned to us who were much more experienced.

We were going through the same kind of boot camp.

So we had a common sort of vernacular and ways of working and methodologies and frameworks in mind.

And then we got assigned to different projects.

And I mean, where you really learned was on those projects, hands on training.

Right.

And again, you were working with a team.

You were typically not working by yourself.

Right.

It was just a very, very good way to start your career because your learning cycles were accelerated.

Right.

And we were getting exposure to different industries, different problems you were solving for your clients.

And we had the benefit of learning from more experienced, more senior people.

Right?

Yeah.

So much wisdom.

That's how I started.

Yeah.

There's always a learning opportunity and I love that it's like a Pixar movie where you were learning about the project topic, but you're also learning about team dynamics and leadership and all that stuff all at the same time.

Was there a specific campus security moment?

I could tell you a lot of stories.

College campuses are.

Students get up to a lot of fun stuff and some not so smart stuff.

What's one of your favorites?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, we when we did our rounds, you know, and by the way, people in the dorms were also our friends.

It's not like I was someone.

I lived in the same dorms.

Right.

Oh, boy.

And so conflict of interest, we're having a party and you're invited.

Yeah.

But a lot of the issues we dealt with there was less about the students.

Even though that was very fun and kind of always there was some activity going on, but a lot of it was because it was an urban campus right in the middle of downtown.

Right.

What was the, what was the university?

It was, it was.

I was a freshman in Seattle University.

It's downtown Seattle.

So there were always some interesting characters coming onto campus who.

Meaning they shouldn't have been on campus.

Right.

And, and sometimes we got caught in supporting Seattle PD on different things, so that felt really important.

But, but yeah, it was, it was always action packed and, and, and most of it had nothing to do with any serious crime, but it still was, was a lot of fun and, and, and I got a lot of hours out of it and it was still the highest paying job on campus.

So, yeah, I, I was able to get to my.

Did you eat donuts while, while you're on your shifts?

At that stage of my life, I, I could eat anything and everything in front of me, right.

Like, oh, my gosh.

And I.

The extra large Papa John's pizza.

Did they have that in Seattle?

Yeah, they had Papa John's.

There was an IHOP right next to campus.

IHOP was like, pretty upscale in those days.

Even where we were in our lives, KFC has, every week they give away all their leftovers at half the price.

So, yeah, we had our spots, you know, to go to.

Yeah.

Well, on your next executive meal, someone might take you to ihop.

Yeah.

The funny thing is, once in a while, if I do see ihop, I still feel the urge to just go in.

Like, I want to have a meal because it was like honey pancakes.

Now when I was a freshman, that was like a celebration.

That was like a big deal.

Like, like if I took a girl out for a date to ihop, that was a big deal, you know?

Wow.

All right.

You may get an nil deal from IHOP now.

Yeah, I have some top executives.

This has been so much fun, and I have a strange urge to go to ihop.

What's your, what's your parting thought for our listeners?

Look, when it comes to, to professional journeys, personal journeys, you know, one of the things I've learned is you've always got to keep an open mind.

You've always got to have a learning mindset, right?

Even today.

I've been in the professional world now for 25, 27 years now, right?

And I still learn every day, every week, right?

And especially with the world, the way it's changing, the pace at which it's changing, with all the technology innovations that are coming into play, the core competency, Having a core competency around learning is really important, right?

And a lot of people say that.

And then you go back and say, like, okay, like, how do I learn, right?

Like, how do I create that urge to learn?

And what I found for myself is just being curious, right?

And, and, and if you have a curious mind, you learn a lot faster than, than anyone else, right?

So curiosity and learning in some ways go hand in hand for me.

That's the first thing.

The second thing I'll say is most of the work most of us do, we're not playing an individual sport.

Like, it's not singles tennis, right?

This is like football or basketball.

It's a team sport, right?

And we all rely on colleagues who are peers.

We rely on team members who are part of your organization that you're supporting.

You rely on your bosses, your managers, your boards, whoever it is, right?

And so ensuring that, that you create the best team around you and the best talent around you and the best people around you is so, so critical to, to winning and achieving the outcomes you want to achieve as an organization.

So that's the second important one.

And the third one is you got to have fun doing it, right?

I mean, this is, this is not something that ends after three months or one year or three years.

Most professional journeys are they go into that 30, sometimes 40 year time horizon, right?

Yeah.

And, and, and so you gotta enjoy it, otherwise life's gonna suck, right?

And so, so, yeah, find the enjoyment.

I think that's so good work.

People hear work and they shut down.

Well, I'm not supposed to enjoy it.

That's not work.

Like there's that saying, but you're, you're taking a different perspective.

Like, find that enjoyment.

It's a lifelong endeavor.

It is, it is.

I mean, so learn a ton, be curious and learn.

Two, build the best team around you.

Focus on talents and culture.

And three, have fun.

You gotta have fun doing it.

Thanks for coming on the show, Razat.

Thanks for having me.

Ben.

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