Washington Square.

On air is the audio town square for the Washington Square Review.

Lansing Community College's literary journal.

Writers, readers, scholars, publishing professionals, citizens of the world, gather here and chat about all things writing.

Hey there.

This is Melissa Ford Luckin, editor of the Washington Square Review.

I'm here today with LCC student and local writer John Beery.

Hey, John, how's it going?

Pretty good.

So tell us how you got here to LCC.

So a few years ago, almost 20 years into a career as an automotive mechanic, I was kind of looking for a way out and decided I had never taken any actual college courses.

I'd taken trade school courses, so just decided to dive in and give it a try.

Probably within first couple weeks of being back taking a composition class.

I kind of just fell in love with writing and picked my major before the end of the first semester.

All right, Was there a specific assignment?

Not necessarily.

I know our first assignment in that class was kind of just the reflective essay, and I didn't think that one was all that exciting.

I think it was when we started to get into some light research assignments.

What was your topic of research?

Jeez, I can't even remember.

Between camp one and comp two, there's been several.

Okay, so back up a little bit.

You decided to come to college after being away from school for quite a while.

Yeah.

2006 was high school graduation.

Okay, so what was it like coming back to campus?

Did you have to take placement tests, that kind of thing?

Yes, I did have to take placement tests.

Math especially was a little startling because it'd been so long.

Reading and writing tests I did well on, so I guess that should have been a clue.

Okay, you know what my aptitudes lied in, but.

Right.

What classes did you enroll in, aside from the comp class?

My first semester, I just took two.

I did comp and then a graphic design class, which was heavy in Photoshop, so.

Oh, how did you pick that?

Needed an elective.

When I was looking at the, you know, the course layout, and I'm like, well, that looks fun.

Okay.

And were those face to face classes both online?

No.

Excuse me.

Comp was face to face.

Okay.

And how did that feel coming to the classroom?

It was a lot of fun.

Really.

I was very nervous first night, and by the end of the first night, professor was really nice.

The rest of the students were super nice.

Yeah.

So it felt like an instant community.

Yes.

Yes, it did.

Okay, cool.

So what other things did you do in the comp class that you especially liked?

A lot of the stuff Learning about classic rhetoric was really interesting to me.

The research, learning how to use the, like, the LCC database, search through academic journals and stuff, I.

I don't know.

I just found that interesting.

Had you done that in high school?

If I did, I don't remember because.

That'S what I was wondering, if you suddenly liked it as an adult but didn't like it in high school.

So I think a lot of things about coming back to college I like as an adult versus not liking as a high school student.

Okay.

What stands out in your mind?

Writing, especially.

I did not like writing in high school at all.

What do you think those differences?

I think the biggest difference is I just had time to live and gain some life experience.

I've got something to talk about now.

Okay, that makes sense.

And so maybe when you were reading the research, you had life perspective to kind of balance it and think about whether or not you agreed or disagreed, rather than just soaking it up as though someone says this.

Right?

Okay.

Yeah.

That's kind of the neat thing about research is kind of questioning it and deciding.

Deciding whether or not you agree.

Yeah.

And picking research topics is a little easier now because there's things that are more important to me and that matter to me.

Whereas When I was 17, 18, it was hard to really decide what was even important to you.

Right.

So what kind of classes did you take in high school?

Did you take mechanic, trade school stuff.

Right out of high school?

I did.

I did heavy equipment repair.

I started that right before the economy really went downhill in like 0708.

And that sector really took it hard, so that kind of shifted me towards the automotive field.

Okay, and so you did that for quite a while.

Yeah, in fact, I still do it, so.

Okay.

All right.

So you fell in love with writing.

You decided to take a creative writing class.

Yep.

And what was the first one that you took?

Creative one.

Okay, tell us about that one.

Creative one was a lot of fun.

Was that in person or online?

That was online.

Okay.

I felt like I had a lot of freedom to kind of explore, try different things, and found a lot of things that didn't work.

And I found a few things that did, so.

Okay.

What didn't work?

Poetry.

Okay.

Not into writing poetry at all.

I'll sit and stare at a page for two hours and not get anything out.

Things that did work.

Second person was the big thing I found for myself.

Okay.

Talk a little bit about that and explain what second person is for somebody who doesn't know.

So second person, when you're Writing, you refer to you as the main character.

So first person is I.

First person would be I written from the main character's perspective.

Second person puts the reader as the main character and is constantly referred to throughout the story.

So how did you decide that that was your vibe?

So that happened from a.

It was a exercise where you shift the perspective.

So you had a piece say you had written in first or third person, and then you had to try it in a different perspective.

And so I thought, because everybody kept talking, first, third, first, third.

And I'm like, there's gotta be something in between those.

And so I looked.

So I just did a quick Google search, and the first things that came up were, never use this.

Never use this.

I was like, oh, cool, I'm going to try this then.

And got a little pushback, but not much, really.

And it almost seemed intentional, like, hey, you shouldn't try this.

Just like the Internet says, try this.

Yeah.

The original piece, was that in first person?

Yes, if I recall, it was in first person.

Yeah.

Okay.

And what was it about?

I think that one would have been the piece about skateboarding that I submitted to the Washington Square Review.

Okay.

You read that piece?

Yes, I did.

Yep.

Okay, so when you were starting this exploration of second person, at what point did you know that this was clicking for you?

Geez, almost immediately.

Because the piece was a little bit of a struggle to write at first, because some bits of it are personal to my life.

And when I transferred it to second person, I almost felt I had found a distance between the experience and myself and the piece that I'm like, okay, this works.

When you moved it further away from yourself, did it maybe give you some freedom to move it away from only your experience, do you think?

I think so, because I think that now the reader can immerse themselves in my experience a little more.

Well, you kind of pushed them into it, so they don't have much.

They don't have much choice.

Yeah.

I think that's why people say second person can be kind of hard to pull off, because some readers don't like having it pushed on them, you know?

Yep.

Once you knew that it was clicking, did you, like, start reading it to other people, like your family members or people on the street?

Like, how did that go?

I shared it with a couple people I knew and got positive feedback on it, and then from there did a couple more pieces in it, shared those, got good feedback on that.

Yeah, it's kind of a visceral thing when you know something is working and you get excited about it, and it just feels different.

Yeah.

And second person is the only point of view where I can take a blank page and sit down and just type out the word you, and things just start to flow.

What about third person?

How does that go for you?

Third person I can do, and I don't mind doing it, but it's difficult to keep my bias and judgment out of the narration.

Okay.

Because your novel that you're working on for the novel writing class is.

It's third person.

So let's talk a little bit about other courses that you took.

We'll come back to the novel that you're working on.

You took creative writing one online.

Yep.

And then what other classes?

I took a philosophy class, which I loved.

That was an awesome class.

And what did you love about that one?

Just exploring the different ideas that people.

And the other thing of it, too, is that you couldn't really turn in a wrong answer as long as you made an effort to explain what you were thinking about something.

How does that come into your writing now?

I think I draw in.

I draw in some philosophical themes.

I think it makes you try to tackle big questions in everything you write.

Yeah.

I was thinking maybe you could use it for characterization as you develop different characters.

Yeah.

Give them a different perspective than one that you yourself would ordinarily have.

Okay.

What other creative writing classes?

I took prose style.

That was.

That was great because I do like.

I like reading, like, creative nonfiction and kind of memoir style writing.

So that was a great class.

Okay.

Talk a little bit about what the course content is for someone who isn't familiar with that course.

So that course was heavy on basically sharing your life experience, and it gave you the freedom to basically tell the story as you might tell it to a friend or a family member, embellish things here and there, maybe make a few tweaks to make the story a little more interesting.

Yeah, like a personal narrative.

Yeah, like.

So a lot of composition classes, as you were saying, start with a personal narrative.

And it's kind of interesting that a couple minutes ago you were saying that.

Yeah, the personal narrative in the comp class.

Yeah, it was okay.

But then you get to prose style, and there you are with personal narratives again.

And it kind of clicked a little.

Bit, I think, with that in the comp class is that you're bound by.

A word count and by, you know, a more academic structure maybe, and more academic expectations.

But like you were just saying in the pro style, you're free to be more creative and maybe bend things A little bit, yep.

How do you decide what you can bend and how far you can bend it?

If it's, oh, that one can get tricky because that's, that's kind of a fine line to walk.

But I mean, I guess if your reader wasn't there, do they really even know either way?

Right.

So I don't know.

When you talk about the creative aspects of it, is that beyond just kind of bending the truth?

How does that play into it?

I think applying your voice to it.

So maybe in a kind of more creative setting, you feel more like you can jazz up your voice a little bit more.

Be more descriptive maybe.

Yeah, be more descriptive and yeah, bend the truth.

Make things sound a little bit more fun than they were or exciting.

Okay.

And do you remember what you wrote in that class?

Yeah, so I wrote, wrote a piece about my grandfather.

That one was really therapeutic for me.

In what way?

That one kind of.

I reflected on my childhood going up north with him and then was able to read it to him, you know, later here.

And I don't know, there was just so much.

And that was an interesting one because I had initially set out to write about being up north, but started with the journey up north.

Two thousand words later, I was still on the journey up north.

And so I discovered that that piece wasn't even about the destination, it was just the journey.

Just a four hour drive to the northeast part of the state.

And there was a whole story in it.

So it sounds like you gave yourself the freedom to think through the writing and let the writing guide your thinking.

I think there's a lot of value in that, not worrying so much about how the piece is going to turn out and just letting it grow on the page.

What other things did you do in that class?

Another one I did in that class was tried to explore an idea of.

And this one came from my experience of being a late teenager right when the recession hit.

Kind of explored the idea of getting kicked into the world right out of high school and then all of a sudden having everything that you were told was gonna be there.

Jobs, money, prosperity, all kind of taken from you.

Okay.

And then trying to figure out how to navigate that as 18, 19 year old, just got in their own apartment and had a job but didn't have much else.

Well, let's take a little side trip and talk about that part of your life.

That's when you started working in the automo mechanics career.

Yeah.

So initially right out of high school, worked in some parts stores, probably spent about two years doing that and then started as a mechanic full time.

And you like that pretty well for a long time?

I did.

It's like anything.

I mean, I think it's kind of just grown on me to where it's become more of a.

More of a job and less of a passion.

Okay, so tell us a little bit about an average day.

So an average day for me currently is about half and half in the shop and at the front desk.

I do some service writing.

What's service writing?

Basically create an estimate, communicate a job to a customer.

Okay.

Get the approval to do the job, and then compile it all on the computer so that they have something.

Okay.

No story there.

No story there?

Nope.

No creativity?

Nope.

Not really.

A lot of shorthand, no embellishment of.

The truth, a lot of acronyms.

Okay.

All right.

So how do you feel about doing that kind of writing?

I think about that a lot when I'm doing it.

I'm like, man, I wonder if I could get a little more creative with this.

Probably not.

Probably not.

Yeah.

I'm not even sure anybody reads them.

Okay, so what about in the actual hands on part?

Is there any creativity going on there?

Not much creativity.

A lot more problem solving, which is.

Kind of a sort of creativity coming up with different solutions for stuff.

What kind of things do you find yourself working on the most?

Usually it involves computers, wiring.

Oh, okay.

That sort of thing.

Okay.

A lot of electrical stuff.

A lot of electrical stuff.

All right.

So the.

The deer season doesn't affect you then?

Not as much.

It usually happens a couple years after the deer hit a wire gap.

Oh, okay.

It doesn't cause a problem for two years.

All right, good to know.

Those are the things that I'm hunting for.

Okay.

As someone who has hit a deer in the past couple years, that's an interesting thing to think about.

Keep that in mind.

Yeah.

So when you're at work, do you talk with your co workers about your experience at school?

Yeah.

And what do you tell them?

I like to share a lot of the things that we read or maybe exercises we've done, projects I'm working on.

Most of them don't find it that interesting because it's not quite in their wheelhouse.

Has anyone that you talked with started to think, well, maybe I should go to school?

Not yet.

Not that I've noticed anything.

Are you secretly hoping that will happen?

Yes, secretly hoping that'll happen.

We can make sure you have some LCC T shirts, right?

Yeah.

All right, so let's talk a little bit about current projects.

That you're working on.

You're in the writing the novel class, and you're working on a novel.

So tell us.

Working on a novel.

Yep.

Tell us about that.

So that's a piece called Games People Play that is about the lives of people involved in Little League baseball.

Focuses on the lives of people in, like, a really high end, really premier, say, like a travel organization where parents and players have to put in endless hours.

Lots of money, lots of resources.

This is something many people can relate to that have kids in sports.

Yep.

And so we kind of look at the perspective of a parent who is kind of at her wit's end.

And then we've got a kid in there who is enduring some physical pain who, you know, his elbows getting beat up from pitching and.

Star player.

He's a star player.

So it's a lot of pressure on.

A lot of pressure.

Dealing with some emotional pain because he's under so much pressure.

And you live in a small town.

You grew up in a small town.

Both.

Okay.

Yep.

How does that feed into this story?

Quite a bit.

I've drawn quite a bit of inspiration from the things that I've witnessed.

Give us a couple examples.

Yeah, I've seen some players whose parents are very hard on them, expect a lot out of them on the baseball field.

And it's almost sad because it's almost like you're robbing them of the opportunity to just enjoy hitting a ball with a bat.

How do you see them putting the pressure on?

I mean, just, you know, things from yelling at them and screaming at them.

And then you find out that, you know, okay, when we're not at practice, we're taking them to, you know, we gotta go to the batting cage four nights a week, and they've gotta have their private pitching lessons two nights a week.

And that is a lot of pressure.

Yeah, it's a lot for any kid who's 8, 9, 10, 12 years old to endure.

Yep.

And what about the school?

Do they.

Do you feel like the schools contribute to that?

So at that level, at least in our town, the school isn't really involved in it.

It's an outside organization.

So I don't.

I don't know.

I wonder how different it would be maybe if the schools were involved a little more.

Did you see it yourself when you were in high school?

So I didn't really play any sports in high school, but some friends I had did.

And, yeah, there's a lot of pressure on them at that level, too.

And do you feel like it comes from the other students, the parents, the community.

My experience, I would say most of it comes from the parents.

Okay.

All right.

So in both instances, it sounds like it's a lot coming from the parents.

And the student player, the kid player, is left dealing with it.

Just like in your book.

Yep.

Yeah.

So how far into the manuscript are.

You at this point?

What's put together is probably 8,000 words.

Okay.

But there's more there, and I think if I get some things broken down and reorganized, I think I could have something a little bit better.

How does it feel different to work on this project knowing that it's going to be, what, 70, 80,000 when you're done, versus one of the short stories that.

Yeah, this, you know, a novel project's a little more daunting if you're thinking about an end goal all the time.

So how do you approach it?

I just try to focus on what's in front of me.

Try to focus on it scene by scene.

Because if you're trying to focus on the entire piece, you know, 80,000 words.

I try.

I don't know how anybody could sit down and just focus on 80,000 words and then produce them.

It's definitely more just intimidating task because, you know, it could take you a year, year and a half, versus a short story, which would take, you know, it could be a weekend.

Yep.

What motivates you to want to write this particular story?

Some of the student athletes that I've watched, I think I want to tell the story for them.

And how do you see this student?

What's the character's name, the child in story?

His name's Tommy.

Okay, so how do you see Tommy's journey going over the course of the novel?

I hope that by the end of the project that he'll find what he wants, and that's just a fun, nurturing place to play baseball.

So you think he'll continue to play baseball even at the end, just in a different way?

I think so.

Okay.

Yeah.

What about the mother whose name is.

Her name is Amber.

Okay.

And what happens with her?

I'm hoping that she will, by the end of it, find what she's truly looking for, and that's just to have a family that loves her and to feel that she fits in somewhere.

Yep.

I hope this is a little bit of a spoiler, but it's clear in the first chapter, so if anyone reads it.

So Amber herself was an athlete.

Correct.

And so she's trying to live vicariously through Tommy a little bit.

That's also correct.

So is this something that you think you've seen in real life?

I think so.

And I think if you asked anybody, they might not admit it.

It's usually pretty easy to spot.

Yeah.

So your task then will be providing a.

A character arc for Amber that's convincing.

That gives her a way to let go of that.

Yep.

Yeah.

Tell us a little bit about your writing space and your writing practice.

So I have a small space set up that I had initially set up to use for writing, but then I kind of found out that I like to just kick back in my recliner with a lap desk and a laptop, and that's where my writing space is.

Kind of in the middle of the house sort of thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

And do you talk while you write?

Do you listen to music?

Sometimes I'll listen to music.

Usually my wife and son are awesome about.

Like, if they know I'm in the middle of something, they'll just leave me be and let me do my thing.

So they give me a good space to write.

That's cool.

So can you watch TV or anything like that while you're writing?

It depends on what's on.

Okay.

So you know if the lions are on or something?

No, I can't watch TV and write.

Okay.

All right.

Do you find that you work better in the afternoon, the evening, morning?

Yeah, it depends on the day.

Just.

Yeah.

How often do you write?

Every day.

I try to write every day.

Sometimes I'll find I just need a couple days to not write.

Okay.

What do you do writer wise on the days when you're not writing?

Try to come up with stuff to post on my social media.

Okay.

Which is fairly new.

Yeah, that's fairly new to me.

So I'm.

I'm learning my way through that right now.

So how did you come to decide to have authorly?

Social media?

Through the development projects from the writing the novel class.

Okay.

Yep.

And you picked Instagram?

I picked Instagram.

How did you pick that one?

Just some reading I had done online.

A lot of other authors suggested that it was a good space to find readers.

Yeah.

Okay.

And what's surprising about it so far?

Coming up with content to share.

Okay.

Coming up with something that's visually, you know, interesting, that.

Yeah.

You think that people might search for or share to somebody else and writing.

The captions, writing the captions.

So it's creative all over again because you're telling a little mini story with.

Well, people will be able to follow you on Instagram.

They'll be able to find you there.

That's right.

So as you're thinking about your own writerly journey, what is it that surprises you most so far?

So as far as social media, I still use Facebook a lot, and that's what I'm most used to, the engagement that I've had with people accessing my site and viewing my stories.

You're surprised about that?

Yeah, Pleasantly surprised.

Okay.

What about the writing process in a more broad sense?

That's interesting because it can be so spontaneous and organic.

Sometimes an idea hits you and then you have a few minutes, flip the laptop open, and Suddenly you've produced 4,000.

Words just listening to.

I think one of the things that comes across that has surprised you is just how much you like it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that it just feels right.

Yep.

Which is kind of really neat because if you consider, you know, five years ago, you probably had no idea.

No, I really didn't.

And five years ago, it had been at least 15 years since I'd cracked a book.

So there was a whole other side of you that you found.

Yep.

You know, kind of midlife, which is super great.

Really.

Thank you.

Yeah.

So you're going to take more classes here at lcc?

Yep.

I'm approaching completion of my associate.

Probably another two semesters.

I should be wrapped up.

Okay.

And which associates?

Creative writing.

Okay.

And where to next?

Not sure yet.

Okay.

Still trying to navigate that.

Okay.

And you're looking at schools that have online or that you can ideally.

Yes.

Yep.

Or that you can drive to.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right, that sounds great.

Well, people can check you out on Instagram, easily, find you and see what you're posting.

Do you have a website also?

I do.

It's johnberryauthor.com.

Okay, well, we'll be sure to include that in the show notes.

Alrighty.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Thanks for coming.

Thanks for stopping by the audio Town square of the Washington Square Review.

Until next time.

Hi, everyone.

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