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You don't get to choose
which state you're in.

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In this episode, the Polyvagal Ladder,
Deb Dana's metaphor for how you flow

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through the autonomic states, why you
can't skip rungs, why you don't get

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to choose which state you're in, and
what that means for the way you've

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likely been blaming yourself for
past reactions or lack of reactions.

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I'm Justin Sunseri, a therapist,
self-regulation coach, and Polyvagal

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Institute editorial board member.

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You're listening to Stuck Not Broken, Book
One: Trauma and the Polyvagal Paradigm.

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This is an audiobook, and it's
meant to be heard in order.

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Each episode obviously builds
upon the one that came before it.

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So if you're just finding the show
now, welcome, uh, but also go back and

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start f- from the beginning, especially
if this is new material for you.

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It'll make a lot more sense, uh, that way.

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The Polyvagal Ladder.

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The Polyvagal Ladder is
a metaphor from Deb Dana.

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It helps us to understand how we move
through our primary autonomic states.

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Just as with a ladder, our
active autonomic state shifts

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up and down sequentially.

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The active state does not
skip rungs of the ladder.

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It moves through them one by one.

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Also, like a ladder, there's a top,
middle, and bottom to our primary

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polyvagal states, quite literally.

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The safety pathways, ventral vagal,
connect our brain stem to our

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heart, neck, and facial muscles.

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The safety state is the highest
point of the Polyvagal Ladder,

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and it's at the top of our bodies.

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In the middle rung of the Polyvagal
Ladder is the flight-fight system,

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sympathetic, and that's located
in the spinal cord and the chest.

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At the bottom of the ladder is
the shutdown system, dorsal vagal,

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and that resides in the gut.

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If you aren't literally safe, you
lose access to the safety pathways

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and drop down your autonomic ladder
into the flight-fight system The first

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sympathetic impulse is to escape danger,
to create space and get to safety.

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But if that doesn't work, the second
sympathetic impulse is to use aggression,

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closing space to get the danger to back
off, and then create space by fleeing.

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If aggression doesn't work, you
drop down further into your shutdown

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system at the bottom of the ladder
and collapse in immobilization.

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This is a seq-sequence of shifts,
not a choice that you make.

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Like a ladder, you climb down
and climb up in a sequence.

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Same with our autonomic states.

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We shift through them in a
sequence, not as a result of choice.

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The reverse is also true.

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If you exist in a shutdown state, you
need to climb your polyvagal ladder

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through flight-fight and back into safety.

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You don't skip flight-fight from shutdown
and then enter your safety state.

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Let's illustrate the polyvagal ladder
metaphor through two scenarios.

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The first is a more obvious one,
uh, focusing on actual survival.

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The second is a human example not
directly related to survival, but

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shows how we still use these pathways.

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Example one, gazelles.

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Imagine a herd of gazelles on the
open plain, grazing and chatting with

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each other about recent herd events.

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They feel relaxed and connected
in their safety states.

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They hear something, though, moving in
the brush, and they turn to the sound.

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One of them says, "Did everyone
else hear that?" They nod,

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for they did indeed hear it.

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"Okay, here's what we're going to…"
Suddenly, a lion springs out of the

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brush, sprinting toward the herd.

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The herd members each drop out
of their safety state into their

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sympathetic flight-fight state
and run as fast as possible.

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But the lion catches one of them,
pouncing and dragging it to the ground.

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Its flight activation was insuffec-
insufficient, and it could not

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act on any aggressive fight
impulse that it may have had.

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The gazelle collapses limply into
its shutdown state, not dead,

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but immobile and playing dead.

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The lion pauses to breathe,
panting as it recovers from

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using its own sympathetic energy.

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Its enormous body desperately needs oxygen

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A pack of hyenas approaches the scene,
opportunistically seeking out the kill.

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The lion growls, "Back off before
I make you back off," to the hyena

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pack, and they respond, "You and
what army?" The lion is stumped.

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Its brain freezes, unable to
respond to the hyenas' retort.

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During this mental standoff
between the hyenas and the lion,

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our gazelle friend unconsciously
detects an opportunity to escape.

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It uses its power and sympathetic
fight state to push off the ground

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and swing its majestic gazelle
head around, creating space.

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Then, as the hyenas and lion reel
back, the gazelle sprints for

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safety using its flight activation.

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It reaches its herd, and they greet each
other with whatever greetings gazelles

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do and re-accessing its safety state.

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Indeed, a beautiful
sight, surely, I assume.

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I really don't know, but you get the idea.

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Look, it's, it's just a made-up example
of… to illustrate the polyvagal ladder,

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and I think it's entertaining too.

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Example two, you're at work.

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Imagine you're at work feeling relaxed
and engaged with your colleagues.

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Now, I said imagine for a reason, okay?

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You're in your safety state at
the top of your polyvagal ladder.

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You are collaboratively working and
sharing ideas, smiling, and everybody

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is just absolutely enthralled
with you and everything about you.

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Suddenly, you're informed that you
must give an impromptu presentation

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to the entire team, including your
higher-ups, in just a few minutes.

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Not only that, but your job and your
livelihood depend on your success.

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Your state quickly shifts
to flight activation.

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"Oh, crud," you exclaim to
yourself, but also, unfortunately,

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loud enough for others to hear.

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Your heart rate increases, your palms
get sweaty, and your mind races as you

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desperately attempt to think of a way
out of the situation, but there is none.

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You get angry, entering your fight state.

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"How dare they do this to me? How dare
they bombard me with this unlikely

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and happenstance situation? This is
an outrage of the highest order."

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You say these words to yourself,
keeping your fight energy inside.

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And obviously, it would be inappropriate
to say aloud and would likely result in

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your termination from your position and
the loss of your colleagues' adoration.

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You clench your fists and march
forward into the conference room.

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As you begin the presentation, you
feel overwhelmed by the staring eyes

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and the importance of the moment.

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You find it hard to focus,
and your voice falters.

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You think about losing your job,
about being booed by your colleagues,

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and tomatoes being chucked your way.

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Why are they bringing tomatoes to work?

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You have entered the shutdown state,
feeling disconnection and numbness.

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But somehow you make it through the
presentation, seemingly on autopilot.

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After the presentation, you
receive some positive feedback.

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Your colleagues say, "We had no
idea that you knew so much about

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whatever thing. Great job, colleague."

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"Really?" you say nervously,
looking at the ground.

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Your eyes dart up at them briefly.

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"You really mean that?"

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"Indeed we do," they
each say simultaneously.

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"I was so upset. Wow, what a relief."
Energy comes back into your system

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as you laugh nervously with an
awkward smile, feeling on edge and

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unsure if you trust the feedback.

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"No, we really mean it. You have
incredibly extensive knowledge

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of whatever thing, and you
present it very well. Great job."

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You smile, you take a deep breath, and

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exhale slowly, relaxing
into your safety state.

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"Hey, colleagues, let's all spend
time together doing something

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social and smiling," you say.

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And so you do.

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Remember, these states are functions of
the autonomic nervous system, the ANS.

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These autonomic shifts
operate largely outside of our

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conscious awareness and control.

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The ANS constantly regulates
vital functions like heart rate,

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digestion, respiratory rate, and more.

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In response to our environment, the
autonomic nervous system seamlessly

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shifts between states of safety,
mobilization, and immobilization,

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but it does so sequentially up
and down the ladder, not randomly.

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These shifts are not choices that we make.

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They are autonomic responses that evolved
to enhance the potential of survival.

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The ANS adapts to perceived threats or
safety cues by transitioning through

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different physiological states.

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This process occurs without our
conscious input, which means we don't

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get to choose the autonomic state
that we are in at any given moment.

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Our capacity for social engagement,
or lack thereof, is inherently

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tied to our autonomic functioning.

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The same applies to other reactions
like running away, fighting back,

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collapsing, appeasing or freezing.

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Shifting into and out of these
states is a dynamic, fluid process.

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Understanding the lack of conscious
control over these shifts is important,

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and I can't stress this enough.

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This is foundational in creating
a new narrative for yourself.

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Autonomic states are not
under your conscious control.

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You cannot choose to switch states.

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Our reactions to stress or traumatic
incidents are not a matter of choice

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or character, but rather the result of
deeply ingrained biological processes.

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And, yeah, a healthy dose of
nurture along with nature.

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However, these autonomic
responses can become dysregulated.

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One can actually get stuck in a defensive
state, making movement through that

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polyvagal ladder much more difficult,
including accessing the safety state.

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There are some pieces of good
news that I got for, for you.

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Number one, even though you can't
consciously control and change your

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autonomic state, you can consciously
set yourself up for a greater

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likelihood of shifting up your
polyvagal ladder toward regulation.

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Number two, you can also
consciously experience your states

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as they are and as they shift.

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Number three, you can consciously
feel and experience more safety in

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your body and then extend it further.

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And number four, you can
consciously reduce obstacles

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to polyvagal ladder climbing.

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I discuss all of these pieces of good news
in books two and three in a lot of depth.

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Applying this to a possible new narrative.

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When we look back at things we've
been through, we often blame ourselves

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for how we did or did not react.

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Like, "I should have blank,"
or, "If only I didn't blank."

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But again, our polyvagal states are not an
issue of choice, neither are the behaviors

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we have access to from our state.

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Ladder climbing is a sequence of
events, not a menu of options.

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No one is picking their autonomic
states or how they react to

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potentially traumatic situations.

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As I share this basic level of polyvagal
theory knowledge with my therapy clients,

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I often see a gloss, I'm not sure
how to put it, come over their faces.

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Their affect goes flat, but
not in a disconnected way.

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Their minds go to some memory, and
they rapidly piece together a new

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understanding of what they went through.

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Instead of blame, there's now
an opening for understanding

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and maybe even self-compassion.

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I hope you build that
for yourself as well.

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I invite you to objectively look
at what you have learned so far and

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apply it to yourself as best you can.

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Objectivity with ourselves is not easy

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That's the polyvagal ladder.

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The Polyvagal Current.

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So that was the Polyvagal Ladder.

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Um, and that is Deb Dana's
metaphor, and it's a great one for

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understanding the overall sequence.

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I've used this extensively for years.

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And there are other autonomic models
out there, like the stoplight one.

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But I also created my own that does
something that the others don't, and

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that's show the fluid changing nature
of the autonomic states, as well as how

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they interact with each other, as well
as how adding or taking away safety

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influence affects the entire system.

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I call it the Polyvagal Current.

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It's free on my site, and you
can interact with it today.

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There's a page dedicated to it,
plus two more pages that teach you

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how to apply it to your own life
and how to apply it to unstucking.

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Go to stucknotbroken.com/polyvagal-current

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to get started or just tap
the link in the description.

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Next time, as we continue Stuck Not Broken
Book One- Neuroception, the unconscious

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mechanism that triggers your state
shifts up and down the polyvagal ladder.

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What it is, what it's trying to
detect, and why some of us struggle

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with detecting safety accurately.

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Thank you so much for listening