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Hey, it's Nick here, the handler for Dead Letter Bureau, and we're doing something a
little different today.

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Today I'm having a little chat with Tom from Stories and Lies.

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Tom, anything you wanna say?

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I thought I guess I'll introduce myself.

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Hello, I'm I'm Tom Ogus.

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I'm I'm one of the guys for Stories and Lies.

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The nice thing about that podcast is we do share a lot of the work, which is necessary.

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We can get into that later.

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But I I guess I'm the primary.

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I the guy that got it started and I do the most the stories.

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Yeah.

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Was your first show the redacted files or or first time recording something, or have you
done a bit of things before that?

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Yeah, so I mean redacted reports was the first really the second.

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Really the second.

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Now before redacted reports, I was on this there's this channel called Quests in Chaos on
Twitch, which was about started ten years ago.

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And I did that for a couple of ye couple of years, right before COVID and then into COVID.

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But we had a show and I I played a role on one of the Twitch shows, and they turned that
Twitch broadcast into a podcast.

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Which I mean, it's just taking the audio from the Twitch stream and releasing as a
podcast.

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So it's not the same thing as what we do now.

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But I I did that for a while.

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I would I had no role in that.

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I just showed up on camera, played a character for three hours, and then it would be a
podcast.

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But then Redacted Reports really was the first thing I did.

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And then Stories and Lies is our our current project.

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Yeah, so I like to kick things off with a lightning round just to do quick warm-ups and to
get to know you.

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What would you say your favorite T T RPG system is?

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I mean right now it's Delta Green 'cause that's what I've been doing.

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That's what I I'm I'm I'm in that mode.

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You know, and I know that'll be my favorite until some new hotness eventually steals the
spotlight.

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Right.

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So I mean if I'm stuck on a desert island, I mean it's gonna ultimately be masks of
Nyarlathota.

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It took three years for us to finish that story.

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So if that's that that works for a desert island, you know.

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It'll it'll carry you to starvation, right?

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So

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Most yeah.

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Hopefully rescue, but starvation is maybe a little more likely.

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Yeah.

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All right.

40
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So yeah, you're into Delta Green, Call of Cthulhu, uh, you know, these uh Lovecraftian
systems, right?

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what if Lovecraft is erased from reality?

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Uh where the story lies find its next stories and lies find its next sandbox.

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We're probably going to like gumshoe, you know.

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I I'm I'm picturing something very rules light.

45
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That's what I I think we asked we would go that direction as opposed to going for
something more crunchy.

46
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So yeah, the gumshoe makes the most sense.

47
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'Cause we we kind of just improv this stuff anyway, so it works.

48
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That's cool.

49
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Yeah.

50
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And you know, before we jump into the interview, how did you connect with this group?

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Was it just a a mismatch?

52
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Did you know each other all before?

53
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Did you play at tables for years before recording?

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How did you guys get connected?

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It it's it's the amazing miracle of the internet is what it is.

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And and it's one of those internet success stories.

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And because I think many of us, maybe all of us, have played internet games online and I
feel like most of the time those don't those kind of fall they don't go anywhere.

58
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They like they come together, they break apart.

59
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There's not a lot of connection.

60
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It's hard to connect.

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It's a challenge we have in the internet age.

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The the guys at stories and lies.

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I met Taylor, who was a very first guy who very first producer.

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And he and I I I

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kind of core to this.

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He and I played together during COVID on online on Discord.

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And so I had that connection with him.

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And then uh Matt, who's one of our founding members, he and I were both on another Discord
for another show, which the it's gosh, Mayday.

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Gosh, they have Doom to Repeat.

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Was a we were both fans of Doom to Repeat by by the Mayday podcast, whatever they're I
forget what they're called again.

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Yeah.

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But we were just on that Discord, like two guys on a Discord talking about Delta Green.

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And at some point I was like, Man, I really wish I could do this again.

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I missed these old, you know.

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And he is like, Man, I'd love to do that with you.

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That was that was it.

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That was like the conversation.

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And he and I connected and we he and I and and Taylor, who I I I invited Taylor.

79
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I like, I Taylor's great.

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I I brought him back.

81
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Sure.

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He brought his friend Wes.

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And Wes is just chaos incarnate.

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And it wasn't so much fun.

85
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So we just all got together.

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We did a game that was not released.

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We just did a test game and had a great time.

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And we're like

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Gotta keep doing this.

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And so we we went forward.

91
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That was that's I don't know, we're we're like a hundred and seventy episodes later, you
know, here we are, right?

92
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Absolutely.

93
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Yeah, it's incredible.

94
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And just like the quality.

95
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And I mean, so like I got into Stories and Lies probably it's about two years ago now,
maybe a year and a half ago.

96
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And so I listened to the backlog all at once, right?

97
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And you know, you could not just the quality in the production growing, but like your
guys' performances, your gameplay, like your presence at the table, it is evolving

98
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constantly.

99
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And then now this God's teeth one.

100
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There was one episode where you guys are just chatting about what to do next, or like
right after you meet each other.

101
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And it goes on for like 30 minutes.

102
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And it's still some of the best role playing out there, right?

103
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Not to just not to glaze too much, but you can you can see the evolution and you have a
group of people that is really special, I think.

104
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Appreciate that we we have an episode in Ladybug and I think it's the third episode, which
I think it's called Copy and Conspiracy.

105
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Yeah where I I as the handler, I I I don't know what I said.

106
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I maybe said three or four words in that episode.

107
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I I said very little.

108
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I got got the characters together at a coffee shop and they just started role-playing.

109
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And that was one of the earliest things we ever did.

110
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And it was like that moment was like, Okay, this this we got something good here.

111
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Cause we just had three players playing three different characters.

112
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And then just interacting with the s with the scene from three different perspectives.

113
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You know, and it was just we watched it unfold and it was and that's always been a thing.

114
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We in our show we've got these moments of character conversation and then moments of s
tension.

115
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And we kind of bounce back and forth between that as the pacing allows, basically.

116
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Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah.

118
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Is that a hard thing to balance as like I mean, as a handler and a player, do you do you
ever get the sense you're like, we've been talking too much or oh, maybe we need to add

119
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some tension?

120
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Does that actually occur to you or does it feel natural now?

121
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it it does occur to me and I try to do something about it, but the the hardest part is if
I'm not the handler.

122
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That's the hardest part.

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My instincts are I have a certain ticking clock in my head.

124
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Okay, we've talked long enough.

125
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I need to I'll interrupt and move the scene forward.

126
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And I think Matt has the same clock in his head.

127
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Matt and I are pretty in sync with how long the conversation could go.

128
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Taylor can actually go a lot longer.

129
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Like Taylor Taylor has a very slow clock in his head.

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He can really role play the hell out of the scenes.

131
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So when he's the handler, you know, we often

132
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I obviously I get uneasy.

133
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Sometimes I'm like, all right, aren't you should we move the scene forward here?

134
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Let's go.

135
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Yeah.

136
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But it he eventually it happens eventually.

137
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It works out.

138
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Yeah, the the latest arc, like as it unfolds, you can see a difference in the pacing,
right?

139
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So still love it, right?

140
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And I was in a game that the Patreon game that Taylor ran great as well.

141
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And so like I got to experience him as a handler.

142
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And yeah, he he likes to luxuriate in the scene sometimes.

143
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And he's more like uh Well, what do you think?

144
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It's not here's the answer to your question.

145
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Well what what do you see?

146
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You know, like

147
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And you know, tries to get you to like suss it out more before giving you the answer as a
handler.

148
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So yeah.

149
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Yeah.

150
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So, you know, I'm curious with you've been doing this for a long time.

151
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There you you said a hundred and thirty something episodes, right?

152
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Not th I think we're like a hundred and sixty.

153
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Hundred and sixty.

154
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We're up there.

155
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It's yeah, it's it's been a while.

156
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So God, when did we start?

157
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Um, did we start in twenty three?

158
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I think we started in twenty twenty three.

159
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I gotta look I gotta look back.

160
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It's but it feels like a long time on one hand, and another time another hand it's just
like I don't know.

161
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Yeah.

162
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I it could have been a long who knows?

163
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Time time is a very strange thing.

164
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That's all I know.

165
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Yeah, exactly.

166
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Yeah.

167
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What keeps you coming back and recording and being a performer as well as a storyteller in
this?

168
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What's the what's the core need that you're meeting through this project in your life?

169
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Yeah.

170
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I mean, number one, at the table we have a great time.

171
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Like we we really enjoy those get getting together with the guys and eat we talked before,
we talk after, we talked, you know.

172
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So we have a great time.

173
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I look forward to it.

174
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I think we all look forward to getting together.

175
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It doesn't feel like work.

176
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The editing process is fun because we get stuff before it's released.

177
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We get to have some say on how things are happening.

178
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We get sneak previews.

179
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I work on these scripts between you know, so there's always a little tinkering we're
doing.

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it comes out

181
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And then it's like, wow, that sounds amazing.

182
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I don't remember it being that cool.

183
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So that's that's fun.

184
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So this like ri it's ri reinforced.

185
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It's reinforced the whole time.

186
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And the last thing to me is because we share the load enough, um, we we all start getting
these great ideas.

187
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Like the current story that Taylor's doing, Golden Orchard, is an idea he had like a year
and a half ago, like a long time ago.

188
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And he is working on it, working on it.

189
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He's getting all excited.

190
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He's like hypes us up to do this story, right?

191
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And then

192
00:09:07,438 --> 00:09:12,025
And I've got a story I'm working on next that I've been working on for eight, ten months
now.

193
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And Matt's working God's teeth and he's super hyped.

194
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So all of us are hyped to do these projects.

195
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So that that internally gets us excited.

196
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So we got a lot of fuel that kind of keeps us coming back.

197
00:09:24,844 --> 00:09:25,655
Yeah, that's cool.

198
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So you have enough of a time of a break from handling because handling is a a heavy lift,
right?

199
00:09:30,639 --> 00:09:30,949
Yeah.

200
00:09:30,949 --> 00:09:35,742
I mean, even emotionally, especially with Delta Green, sometimes you're just like, whew,
you know.

201
00:09:36,063 --> 00:09:37,754
I I'm sure Matt feels that right now.

202
00:09:37,754 --> 00:09:46,632
So but yeah, and you get this space to play and explore a character, not a bunch of NPCs
in a story.

203
00:09:46,632 --> 00:09:50,134
And that gives you time to kind of develop your own stories, it sounds like.

204
00:09:50,680 --> 00:09:50,970
Yeah.

205
00:09:50,970 --> 00:09:53,931
I I I still love the handler job.

206
00:09:53,931 --> 00:09:54,421
Yeah.

207
00:09:54,421 --> 00:10:03,854
'cause I care character characters we can talk about that later, but No no 'cause
Handler's got a lot more stories to do than just one character.

208
00:10:03,854 --> 00:10:09,975
And and one thing I like about the handler role is I get to constantly kind of read
rewrite the story.

209
00:10:09,975 --> 00:10:12,596
It's a lot of re editing all the time.

210
00:10:12,596 --> 00:10:18,330
Like I'll have an idea and then someone at the table has a better idea and I just steal
their idea.

211
00:10:18,330 --> 00:10:19,270
Yeah.

212
00:10:19,308 --> 00:10:20,141
That's what we keep doing.

213
00:10:20,141 --> 00:10:22,698
So it keeps refreshing all the time.

214
00:10:22,698 --> 00:10:24,735
It it's a lot of mental energy.

215
00:10:24,735 --> 00:10:27,762
But it's it's very satisfying when it all works out.

216
00:10:28,002 --> 00:10:28,893
Yeah, absolutely.

217
00:10:28,893 --> 00:10:38,896
Feeling like the puzzle pieces come together and you're you're like this arbiter where you
pull in all the different stories everyone at the table is trying to tell and you're able

218
00:10:38,896 --> 00:10:40,067
to kind of piece it together.

219
00:10:40,067 --> 00:10:44,492
And seeing that tapestry in front of you sounds like that's motivating for you.

220
00:10:44,706 --> 00:10:45,697
Yeah, I I love that.

221
00:10:45,697 --> 00:10:48,448
That keeps me um it keeps me thinking between games too.

222
00:10:48,448 --> 00:10:58,223
As a as a character, I I might think about what just happened and then what would my
character do in the future, but that doesn't that's not a lot of that's a very small

223
00:10:58,223 --> 00:10:59,634
amount of uh brain power.

224
00:10:59,634 --> 00:11:00,455
Right.

225
00:11:00,455 --> 00:11:07,358
I I as when I'm playing, I can mostly just put the character aside and I come back to that
character two weeks later and I kind of rethink it.

226
00:11:07,358 --> 00:11:10,840
As the handler, I spend two weeks thinking about the story is what I do.

227
00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:11,220
Exactly.

228
00:11:11,220 --> 00:11:14,254
I just keep ruminating about what just happened, what I want to do next.

229
00:11:14,254 --> 00:11:17,158
You know and it so it burns a lot more energy that way.

230
00:11:17,336 --> 00:11:18,006
Yeah, it's funny.

231
00:11:18,006 --> 00:11:20,218
I find myself, you know, similar.

232
00:11:20,218 --> 00:11:24,490
I'm playing in a game somebody else ran and then I'm running stuff at the same time.

233
00:11:24,490 --> 00:11:29,113
And if I play too late, because I, you know, I get up early, like I have kids, right?

234
00:11:29,113 --> 00:11:33,056
If I play too late, my brain just doesn't turn off if I'm handling.

235
00:11:33,056 --> 00:11:36,968
I'm going over what's gonna happen next and I can't sleep because of it, right?

236
00:11:36,968 --> 00:11:41,401
Because that that role is like so cognitively heavy, but also satisfying.

237
00:11:41,401 --> 00:11:43,768
It's gonna it's an excitement.

238
00:11:43,768 --> 00:11:47,760
You know, as is the reason I can't sleep, not necessarily like a tax, so

239
00:11:48,302 --> 00:11:49,425
Yeah, absolutely.

240
00:11:49,484 --> 00:11:52,305
With putting yourself out there, it can be hard, right?

241
00:11:52,305 --> 00:11:57,198
And you know, I I tag this as imposter syndrome or it can be any negative feeling that you
get.

242
00:11:57,198 --> 00:11:59,969
Do you ever second guess yourself in this process?

243
00:11:59,969 --> 00:12:04,874
Do you ever release an episode and feel like, you know, that's not what I wanted?

244
00:12:04,874 --> 00:12:12,625
I talk to other showrunners and they're like, you know, I have post episode blues or like
I constantly suffer from imposter syndrome.

245
00:12:12,625 --> 00:12:15,296
Does that ever seek its way into you?

246
00:12:16,288 --> 00:12:17,859
N not not much.

247
00:12:17,859 --> 00:12:19,259
But I'll back up.

248
00:12:19,599 --> 00:12:20,830
I've been doing doing this for a little while.

249
00:12:20,830 --> 00:12:21,830
I'm I'm I'm a little older.

250
00:12:21,830 --> 00:12:22,961
Yeah.

251
00:12:22,961 --> 00:12:30,064
It at my stage of life, I've kind of gotten this you you get a certain kind of confidence
that's that it's gotten me to this point.

252
00:12:30,064 --> 00:12:39,178
When I was, you know, twenty, thirty years old, I had a lot more um a lot more imposter
syndrome, a lot more of like proving myself, proving myself, kind of like I did I do good

253
00:12:39,178 --> 00:12:39,668
enough.

254
00:12:39,668 --> 00:12:41,068
I can I do better.

255
00:12:41,088 --> 00:12:45,420
And af after a while of doing that, yeah, that was good.

256
00:12:45,420 --> 00:12:48,911
Sometimes I'll say to myself, I gotta wish it went some other way.

257
00:12:48,911 --> 00:12:49,232
Sure.

258
00:12:49,232 --> 00:12:51,572
But I I've kind of made peace with that feeling.

259
00:12:51,673 --> 00:12:56,114
but because most of the time I honestly at the table, things go better than I thought.

260
00:12:56,114 --> 00:13:01,375
I j it just really I have a plan going in and I do not cling to my plan.

261
00:13:01,375 --> 00:13:04,518
Like my plan is like just pencil, felt pencil.

262
00:13:04,518 --> 00:13:14,562
And I get so happy when like stuff happens that is not expected and I can do something
cool with it, that that energy gets me through the times when ah shit, we didn't do a very

263
00:13:14,562 --> 00:13:15,404
good scene.

264
00:13:15,404 --> 00:13:17,626
Or I didn't I didn't role play that NPC very well.

265
00:13:17,626 --> 00:13:18,466
That is something I do.

266
00:13:18,466 --> 00:13:19,277
Like, ah fuck.

267
00:13:19,277 --> 00:13:21,298
I could have played that guy so much better.

268
00:13:21,298 --> 00:13:23,500
Um, I I I'll have minor, minor regrets.

269
00:13:23,500 --> 00:13:25,160
I will give one example.

270
00:13:25,361 --> 00:13:30,044
In in Ghost Lights, there's a pilot character they meet in, I think, episode four or five.

271
00:13:30,044 --> 00:13:34,968
Now I had a I have a buddy that works for Southwest Airlines, who's pilot, a commercial
airline pilot.

272
00:13:34,968 --> 00:13:42,213
I sat down with him for like an hour and asked him a whole bunch of technical questions
and how would this work and how would that work and the the fiction of my story, and I'm

273
00:13:42,213 --> 00:13:44,408
like, and I was trying to soak all this stuff in.

274
00:13:44,408 --> 00:13:47,340
For my buddy, so I could play him as an NPC.

275
00:13:47,340 --> 00:13:49,843
I'm like, I'm gonna be this guy as an NPC.

276
00:13:49,843 --> 00:13:53,946
I'm gonna use these technical terms, I'm gonna speak like a pilot speaks.

277
00:13:53,946 --> 00:13:57,930
And when I actually at the table, I I I didn't do any of that shit.

278
00:13:57,930 --> 00:14:00,111
Yeah, I barely remembered the stuff he told me.

279
00:14:00,111 --> 00:14:04,225
I was forgetting my I So I was like, it was a kind of a B minus performance, I thought.

280
00:14:04,225 --> 00:14:09,619
So from time to time, there's characters that I'm like, ah fuck, I could have played that
character so much better.

281
00:14:10,580 --> 00:14:13,098
But but other than that, I mean, I do feel

282
00:14:13,098 --> 00:14:14,641
generally good about the work we do.

283
00:14:14,641 --> 00:14:20,613
I'm I'm generally happy with our work and I have I'm pretty comfortable in my own s my
stuff, you know?

284
00:14:20,613 --> 00:14:21,344
Yeah, totally.

285
00:14:21,344 --> 00:14:24,841
'Cause I've been I'm old enough now that I'm just like, Yeah, that's this is my stuff.

286
00:14:24,841 --> 00:14:25,900
I hope you like it.

287
00:14:25,900 --> 00:14:26,551
Yeah.

288
00:14:26,551 --> 00:14:26,882
Yeah.

289
00:14:26,882 --> 00:14:32,973
Wait, so wait, are we you know, you look like what, probably forty five, forty six.

290
00:14:32,973 --> 00:14:34,854
Is that ballpark?

291
00:14:34,854 --> 00:14:37,107
I'm actually I'm actually older than that, but let's Okay, okay.

292
00:14:37,107 --> 00:14:37,528
Yeah.

293
00:14:37,528 --> 00:14:40,738
I'll live with that's great.

294
00:14:40,738 --> 00:14:41,860
Yeah, yeah, okay.

295
00:14:41,860 --> 00:14:45,675
I'm forty and people think I'm like thirty five, so yeah.

296
00:14:45,675 --> 00:14:55,839
You know, you've kind of grown into this confidence and you know, through being a skilled
player and all of your your experience in recording and performing, it's helped you avoid

297
00:14:55,839 --> 00:14:58,312
having to second guess yourself too much, right?

298
00:14:58,958 --> 00:15:02,803
Yeah, I I I mean I did when I was a kid I did theater, you know, like like a lot of us
did.

299
00:15:02,803 --> 00:15:05,937
I was I did theater stuff, I did music and uh the whole deal.

300
00:15:05,937 --> 00:15:07,729
Like I was performing stuff.

301
00:15:07,729 --> 00:15:09,621
I I work in a field where I have to talk.

302
00:15:09,621 --> 00:15:10,433
I'm an attorney.

303
00:15:10,433 --> 00:15:11,394
I talk in court.

304
00:15:11,394 --> 00:15:11,794
Sure.

305
00:15:11,794 --> 00:15:18,338
You know, so I I got a left under my s experience under my belt that I can I can fake it
real well.

306
00:15:18,338 --> 00:15:19,381
Yeah, yeah.

307
00:15:19,381 --> 00:15:21,865
You have a a high charisma score, so yeah.

308
00:15:22,394 --> 00:15:24,255
Enough that I can get I can get by.

309
00:15:24,547 --> 00:15:25,208
Exactly.

310
00:15:25,208 --> 00:15:26,068
Yeah.

311
00:15:26,370 --> 00:15:36,756
In that vein, but like when you produce the show from running, playing a character,
recording the writing process, like which which part of the process is most difficult for

312
00:15:36,756 --> 00:15:38,098
you and why do you think that is?

313
00:15:38,098 --> 00:15:38,619
Yeah.

314
00:15:38,619 --> 00:15:39,564
If any at all.

315
00:15:39,564 --> 00:15:39,954
Right.

316
00:15:39,954 --> 00:15:41,655
The writing is the hardest.

317
00:15:41,655 --> 00:15:42,255
Okay.

318
00:15:42,255 --> 00:15:46,676
But I that's because I I am the hardest on myself in that part.

319
00:15:46,706 --> 00:15:50,197
when I'm roll role playing and acting, it's it's all impromptu.

320
00:15:50,277 --> 00:15:52,098
And so I give myself a lot of grace.

321
00:15:52,098 --> 00:15:53,158
I'm like, you know what?

322
00:15:53,158 --> 00:15:56,079
That was I had that was first take, right?

323
00:15:56,079 --> 00:15:58,799
We had no rehearsal, we have no script.

324
00:15:58,859 --> 00:16:01,170
Whatever comes out, comes out, I'll live with it, you know.

325
00:16:01,170 --> 00:16:01,680
Yeah.

326
00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,801
But with writing, I I've I got time.

327
00:16:04,921 --> 00:16:08,470
I can see it on this page, I can edit it, I can fix it, I can I can

328
00:16:08,470 --> 00:16:13,251
I have power over that that um whatever it turns out, I have power over it.

329
00:16:13,251 --> 00:16:14,912
I could have made it better.

330
00:16:14,912 --> 00:16:19,213
So I put a lot of pressure on myself and like my earlier scripts I'm not as happy with.

331
00:16:19,213 --> 00:16:21,634
Ob obviously we get better as we do this stuff.

332
00:16:21,634 --> 00:16:25,862
But those and when I when I nail one, I that really satisfies me.

333
00:16:25,862 --> 00:16:28,656
I I love that feeling like, yeah, that was good.

334
00:16:28,656 --> 00:16:30,616
Um and I don't always feel that.

335
00:16:30,616 --> 00:16:33,277
Like sometimes I just write it because I have to get something out.

336
00:16:33,277 --> 00:16:36,198
Sure and then whatever, I'll do it better next week.

337
00:16:36,198 --> 00:16:37,738
So totally.

338
00:16:37,784 --> 00:16:41,179
Yeah, I mean if you w if you don't mind, we can hone in on that just a little bit.

339
00:16:41,179 --> 00:16:46,938
When when you write something well and you feel good about it, like what's usually the
process that unfolds for you?

340
00:16:46,938 --> 00:16:48,871
Is it is there some sort of inspiration?

341
00:16:48,871 --> 00:16:50,113
Is it just craft?

342
00:16:50,113 --> 00:16:53,598
How does it usually come out well to where you're proud of it?

343
00:16:53,634 --> 00:16:58,325
Yeah, i I I love a scene that I I don't want it's gotta be th three to five minutes.

344
00:16:58,325 --> 00:17:01,357
It's a short scene where something is revealed.

345
00:17:01,357 --> 00:17:04,238
At the end of the scene, the audience learns something new.

346
00:17:04,238 --> 00:17:08,340
There's some there's a secret that we are gonna unveil in this scene.

347
00:17:08,340 --> 00:17:10,131
You know, and you can't always do that.

348
00:17:10,131 --> 00:17:11,081
That's hard to do.

349
00:17:11,081 --> 00:17:19,504
But I love it when I can finish a script with some twist, some remark, some revelation
that the audience, you know, light bulb goes off.

350
00:17:19,504 --> 00:17:22,406
And if I g if I can nail that, then I I feel really good.

351
00:17:22,406 --> 00:17:23,786
But sometimes it's just

352
00:17:23,864 --> 00:17:25,686
doing fun character stuff.

353
00:17:25,686 --> 00:17:29,201
I have like with with Morrison, for instance, is a character I write a lot.

354
00:17:29,201 --> 00:17:29,561
Yeah.

355
00:17:29,561 --> 00:17:30,703
He's one of my N PCs.

356
00:17:30,703 --> 00:17:34,968
I I like the f to get more and more into him and do fun stuff with him and the other
characters.

357
00:17:34,968 --> 00:17:38,794
So I sometimes it's just just fan service or for me.

358
00:17:38,794 --> 00:17:40,414
Write fun stuff for him.

359
00:17:40,642 --> 00:17:45,154
Yeah, your performance of him, you like you can tell that you luxuriate in it, right?

360
00:17:45,154 --> 00:17:51,847
Like that, like you come out when Morrison is on the the um wavelengths, I guess, not the
screen.

361
00:17:51,847 --> 00:17:54,108
But yeah, so yeah.

362
00:17:54,108 --> 00:17:59,810
Yeah, I mean I guess, you know, kind of a lightning question with that, like, do you have
a favorite N PC?

363
00:18:00,408 --> 00:18:03,199
Yeah, I mean he's definitely one, obviously.

364
00:18:03,199 --> 00:18:08,302
Um I I've had several different characters in our runs that that I just love those
characters.

365
00:18:08,302 --> 00:18:08,522
Yeah.

366
00:18:08,522 --> 00:18:17,096
You know, and because with we when we we as handlers, GMs, whatever, we we I don't know,
was it we play ten, twenty, thirty different people at once at the table?

367
00:18:17,096 --> 00:18:18,926
We bring a lot of characters to life.

368
00:18:18,926 --> 00:18:20,487
And we can't nail them all.

369
00:18:20,487 --> 00:18:21,928
That's impossible.

370
00:18:21,928 --> 00:18:25,289
But if you could nail just a couple, then that's the that's the goal.

371
00:18:25,289 --> 00:18:27,200
So Morrison obviously is one.

372
00:18:27,286 --> 00:18:31,828
in this in the same story, in the static story, that there's this gender character.

373
00:18:32,588 --> 00:18:35,099
huh uh gosh, H Henry, I think.

374
00:18:35,099 --> 00:18:36,310
Gosh, the old Harold.

375
00:18:36,310 --> 00:18:36,920
Old Harold.

376
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:37,360
Yeah, yeah.

377
00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:40,742
Is one of my favorite NPCs that I love that I could play him forever.

378
00:18:40,742 --> 00:18:41,362
I don't know why.

379
00:18:41,362 --> 00:18:45,174
But for some reason about something about that guy that I could really resonate with.

380
00:18:45,174 --> 00:18:50,266
My my character, Nicholas, who is a PC, but really is a GM N P C Sure.

381
00:18:50,266 --> 00:18:52,977
To me was one of my absolute favorite characters I ever played.

382
00:18:52,977 --> 00:18:54,594
You know, got to I got to run crate

383
00:18:54,594 --> 00:18:58,059
That's what I got to chew the walls with that character and I love that guy to death.

384
00:18:59,303 --> 00:19:01,998
And then I'm trying to think who else from our stories.

385
00:19:01,998 --> 00:19:03,890
gosh, that really comes to mind.

386
00:19:04,112 --> 00:19:05,925
I mean those are the ones that come to mind, I guess.

387
00:19:05,925 --> 00:19:07,267
From all the stuff we've done.

388
00:19:07,267 --> 00:19:07,998
Yeah.

389
00:19:08,076 --> 00:19:08,707
Yeah, that's great.

390
00:19:08,707 --> 00:19:12,222
I mean it's a it's a wealth of you know, you said hundred and sixty something episodes.

391
00:19:12,222 --> 00:19:13,804
There's a lot of characters in there, right?

392
00:19:13,804 --> 00:19:16,826
So when are you going back to space?

393
00:19:16,826 --> 00:19:18,239
I'm just kidding.

394
00:19:20,578 --> 00:19:21,519
Maybe hopefully soon.

395
00:19:21,519 --> 00:19:22,359
I I loved that.

396
00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,643
I I'd I'd love that sidetrack, but I think I what did I play?

397
00:19:25,643 --> 00:19:27,114
I played like no NPCs in that story.

398
00:19:27,114 --> 00:19:28,486
That's an amazing story.

399
00:19:28,486 --> 00:19:30,878
Barely, barely played NPCs in that story.

400
00:19:30,878 --> 00:19:35,042
They were barely on screen in the the final aspects of that chapter of the very first
chapter.

401
00:19:35,042 --> 00:19:35,592
Yep.

402
00:19:35,592 --> 00:19:42,118
That was a e that was a I love that story for a lot of reasons, but it's just such a
different vibe to what we were doing.

403
00:19:42,367 --> 00:19:47,660
And the world building with the character intros you would do before each episode was so
interesting.

404
00:19:47,660 --> 00:19:48,909
And you're just like, wow.

405
00:19:48,909 --> 00:19:54,453
I have s like just this like three minute thing gave me such a different understanding of
that PC, right?

406
00:19:54,453 --> 00:19:56,464
So it was yeah, it was really good.

407
00:19:56,464 --> 00:19:57,845
So and it was very tight too.

408
00:19:57,845 --> 00:20:00,706
It was it moved quick and it was action the whole time.

409
00:20:00,706 --> 00:20:04,002
So in like role playing action, not like you know.

410
00:20:04,002 --> 00:20:06,403
Yeah, I arc it's Arc one five we're talking about.

411
00:20:06,403 --> 00:20:11,085
Yeah, that's uh it's such it's such a story at a time for everything else we're doing.

412
00:20:11,085 --> 00:20:11,545
Totally.

413
00:20:11,545 --> 00:20:12,055
Yeah.

414
00:20:12,055 --> 00:20:16,387
and I I forget about it sometimes weirdly enough because it's not it's Call of Cthulhu.

415
00:20:16,387 --> 00:20:18,428
It's not part of our storyline.

416
00:20:18,428 --> 00:20:24,751
You know, but but it's it was yeah, it's it it was a wonderful I was I wouldn't say
experimental.

417
00:20:24,751 --> 00:20:29,302
It's it's tight, but it's just it was just a different and it's a great story.

418
00:20:29,302 --> 00:20:30,473
Well, very well produced too.

419
00:20:30,473 --> 00:20:33,404
Get did an amazing job on the production of that story.

420
00:20:33,602 --> 00:20:38,770
You know, when did you bring get in and like what did you do yourself before that or as a
group?

421
00:20:38,770 --> 00:20:40,885
How did how did that evolve?

422
00:20:40,888 --> 00:20:47,922
Yeah, so when we started out, Taylor ob was the initial producer, editor, he was running
the back end.

423
00:20:47,922 --> 00:20:49,663
He managing the website.

424
00:20:49,663 --> 00:20:50,774
he did all that stuff for us.

425
00:20:50,774 --> 00:20:53,105
He it was and he was overburdened like crazy.

426
00:20:53,105 --> 00:20:53,425
Yeah.

427
00:20:53,425 --> 00:20:58,628
And then every single weekend, Taylor was editing and he was not an experienced editor.

428
00:20:58,628 --> 00:21:00,209
But he also was kind of peculiar.

429
00:21:00,209 --> 00:21:07,473
He wanted things to sound a certain way, so he'd spent hours and hours, Saturday and
Sunday, on the episode that would be coming out on Monday.

430
00:21:07,473 --> 00:21:09,054
And then the next weekend he'd be do the same thing.

431
00:21:09,054 --> 00:21:09,740
He's

432
00:21:09,740 --> 00:21:12,792
His entire weekend was getting ready for that Monday release.

433
00:21:12,792 --> 00:21:21,178
And we were encouraging him and and like trying to keep him going, but his battery was
going down, and he was a soldier for it.

434
00:21:21,178 --> 00:21:31,375
But um, while he was also running Painting Darkness and editing at the same time, which
was crazy, Ged, out of nowhere, he's like a college student's a college student who's a

435
00:21:31,375 --> 00:21:32,446
wonder cun.

436
00:21:32,446 --> 00:21:33,428
He's an amazing guy.

437
00:21:33,428 --> 00:21:37,799
He just sends an email to Taylor Out of the Blue, like this stranger to our our Gmail
address.

438
00:21:37,799 --> 00:21:39,540
We have a stories in lies Gmail address.

439
00:21:39,736 --> 00:21:43,137
Taylor happens to open it up and he's like, Hey, I'm a freelance editor.

440
00:21:43,137 --> 00:21:44,807
I like your podcast.

441
00:21:44,938 --> 00:21:45,158
cool.

442
00:21:45,158 --> 00:21:47,088
This guy actually lists someone listens to us.

443
00:21:47,088 --> 00:21:47,946
This is amazing.

444
00:21:47,946 --> 00:21:50,610
He's like, Hey, do you guys need any help with your editing?

445
00:21:50,610 --> 00:21:53,210
And so and he's that but he he charges for the service.

446
00:21:53,210 --> 00:21:55,711
It wasn't like he's looking for work, right?

447
00:21:55,711 --> 00:21:56,091
Yeah.

448
00:21:56,091 --> 00:21:57,702
And so he's like, here's a list of my work.

449
00:21:57,702 --> 00:22:00,453
Here's a link to all my samples, my experience, blah, blah, blah.

450
00:22:00,453 --> 00:22:01,883
Taylor, Taylor loves it.

451
00:22:01,883 --> 00:22:02,887
He sends us all this stuff.

452
00:22:02,887 --> 00:22:04,384
He's like, Can we hire this guy?

453
00:22:04,544 --> 00:22:06,916
And Matt and I and Wes are like, yeah, sure, man, we'll all chip in.

454
00:22:06,916 --> 00:22:07,915
This is w this is worth it.

455
00:22:07,915 --> 00:22:08,708
We're gonna help you out.

456
00:22:08,708 --> 00:22:09,914
We know this is a burden.

457
00:22:09,914 --> 00:22:11,140
We'll help you out, man.

458
00:22:11,140 --> 00:22:14,453
So we bring him in like in the middle of painting darkness, too.

459
00:22:14,453 --> 00:22:16,474
It wasn't even we're like, just take over, man.

460
00:22:16,474 --> 00:22:23,930
I think it's like episode seven or eight or something, and you can like suddenly hear the
difference in this quality in the middle of that story.

461
00:22:25,052 --> 00:22:26,213
He's been with us ever since.

462
00:22:26,213 --> 00:22:32,590
And like the fun part is initially he was like a uh a guy we hired to do production,
right?

463
00:22:32,590 --> 00:22:32,700
Yeah.

464
00:22:32,700 --> 00:22:37,845
And then we like brought him into the fold and and we're like he's like telling us
creative stuff.

465
00:22:37,845 --> 00:22:40,918
He's like overruling us on things and suggesting things to us.

466
00:22:40,918 --> 00:22:42,159
We're like, Hey, let's do this song.

467
00:22:42,159 --> 00:22:44,151
No, no, no, let's do a better I got a better song for ya.

468
00:22:44,151 --> 00:22:44,621
Yeah.

469
00:22:44,621 --> 00:22:49,996
He kinda took he took over all that aspect of production and uh we've been better off.

470
00:22:49,996 --> 00:22:50,866
Yeah.

471
00:22:50,866 --> 00:22:54,399
Yeah, he's like an editor and a producer too, it sounds like, which is great.

472
00:22:54,399 --> 00:22:55,049
Yeah.

473
00:22:55,049 --> 00:23:01,033
So yeah, he he's hilarious when I see him in Discord and stuff, and he's seems like an all
around solid guy.

474
00:23:01,033 --> 00:23:07,017
So and yeah, does he do every episode then or do you s sometimes Taylor go back and do
some?

475
00:23:07,017 --> 00:23:08,892
Like maybe this Yeah, go ahead.

476
00:23:08,892 --> 00:23:09,822
does a few.

477
00:23:09,822 --> 00:23:16,006
Um Taylor mostly the idea was Taylor would do the Patreon and we've been really remiss in
doing the Patreon.

478
00:23:16,006 --> 00:23:21,169
But he's edited a cup Taylor has done a couple of our behind the scenes episodes.

479
00:23:21,169 --> 00:23:21,569
Sure.

480
00:23:21,569 --> 00:23:23,460
That didn't require any kind of production work.

481
00:23:23,460 --> 00:23:24,891
So Taylor would just do those.

482
00:23:24,891 --> 00:23:31,565
But otherwise, anything that requires, you know, SFX, um, more advanced theme music,
whatever.

483
00:23:31,565 --> 00:23:33,616
I mean anything that gets touched.

484
00:23:33,616 --> 00:23:37,438
It gets it gets been involved in it and pretty heavily involved.

485
00:23:37,462 --> 00:23:41,303
And a lot of our later productions as far as what it's gonna sound like.

486
00:23:41,303 --> 00:23:45,504
And I like I like that forget almost has an idea, like a director.

487
00:23:45,545 --> 00:23:48,886
Like this is the this is the direction this story should go in.

488
00:23:48,886 --> 00:23:51,706
And this is the the the sound I want for this story.

489
00:23:51,706 --> 00:23:52,417
Like, you know what I mean?

490
00:23:52,417 --> 00:23:53,497
Like he has his I'm so cool.

491
00:23:53,497 --> 00:23:55,628
'Cause he he also he works in film.

492
00:23:55,628 --> 00:23:57,608
He does editing audio for film.

493
00:23:57,608 --> 00:23:59,809
He's got he's a busy guy.

494
00:24:00,809 --> 00:24:02,180
And we just I just hope we don't lose him.

495
00:24:02,180 --> 00:24:03,482
That would be that would be

496
00:24:03,482 --> 00:24:04,483
Yeah.

497
00:24:04,483 --> 00:24:05,303
Fingers crossed.

498
00:24:05,303 --> 00:24:06,404
So yeah.

499
00:24:06,944 --> 00:24:08,665
Kind of switching gears.

500
00:24:08,665 --> 00:24:12,177
When you first started recording, it could be with anything, right?

501
00:24:12,177 --> 00:24:21,573
Like what advice do you have for yourself, you know, you know, X years old Tom, to, you
know, you sitting down to first start these projects?

502
00:24:21,573 --> 00:24:23,584
Like what advice would you give yourself?

503
00:24:24,828 --> 00:24:25,388
it's hard to say.

504
00:24:25,388 --> 00:24:31,940
I mean, 'cause I y you gotta give yourself a whole lot of grace, a whole lot of latitude
and let yourself make mistakes.

505
00:24:31,940 --> 00:24:39,812
And y I don't wanna be like I would not tell a young version of myself, you know, a a
whole bunch of extra rules or a bunch of extra boundaries.

506
00:24:39,812 --> 00:24:50,975
Because we all had to learn by screwing things up, yep, by getting by deadline pressure,
you know, by um well there's a lot of mistakes and things you make along the way that

507
00:24:50,975 --> 00:24:52,426
should help you get better.

508
00:24:52,426 --> 00:24:53,356
I mostly just

509
00:24:53,356 --> 00:24:56,158
Just tell it's gonna be great, keep it up, and that kind of stuff.

510
00:24:56,158 --> 00:24:57,169
It's mostly encouragement.

511
00:24:57,169 --> 00:24:57,630
Encouragement.

512
00:24:57,630 --> 00:25:05,056
If I'm talking to a young myself or just a young whoever, a young person who's starting
this, you know, um, you you gotta you gotta love it.

513
00:25:05,056 --> 00:25:06,337
Otherwise, why are you doing it?

514
00:25:06,337 --> 00:25:10,238
But if you do love it, then like, you know, go for it.

515
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:11,921
Go, go for it, man.

516
00:25:11,921 --> 00:25:14,483
It's have fun, put it out there.

517
00:25:14,483 --> 00:25:19,467
And if it's something that you enjoy, I think the joy comes out.

518
00:25:19,628 --> 00:25:22,190
And um in the technical stuff, it's great.

519
00:25:22,190 --> 00:25:23,074
I mean, I love it.

520
00:25:23,074 --> 00:25:26,258
But that's that's not why podcasts fail or succeed.

521
00:25:26,258 --> 00:25:27,340
I don't think that's it.

522
00:25:27,340 --> 00:25:30,744
It's about does it does the audience like it?

523
00:25:30,744 --> 00:25:31,615
Does it resonate?

524
00:25:31,615 --> 00:25:32,626
Does it connect?

525
00:25:32,626 --> 00:25:32,947
Yeah.

526
00:25:32,947 --> 00:25:39,174
Is it something that people enjoy and want to hear more of for whatever reason, you know,
emotional or otherwise?

527
00:25:39,266 --> 00:25:40,427
Yeah, absolutely.

528
00:25:40,427 --> 00:25:40,808
Yeah.

529
00:25:40,808 --> 00:25:41,829
Completely agree.

530
00:25:41,829 --> 00:25:46,004
And on that note, like where do when where do you get character inspiration?

531
00:25:46,004 --> 00:25:51,220
Like when you're sitting down to play rather than uh handle, how do you come up with a
character?

532
00:25:51,220 --> 00:25:53,222
Where do you get ideas and

533
00:25:53,282 --> 00:25:57,966
Yeah, it's uh it it's tough because I feel like it's all been done.

534
00:25:57,966 --> 00:25:58,807
Number one.

535
00:25:58,807 --> 00:25:59,307
Right?

536
00:25:59,307 --> 00:26:04,551
It's hard it and if you try to make that character no one else has done, that character is
a cliche.

537
00:26:04,751 --> 00:26:12,638
So like like and I've seen plenty of podcasts or st role playing games where people pick
this the weirdest guy you can think of that no one's ever thought of before, and it just

538
00:26:12,638 --> 00:26:13,459
doesn't fit.

539
00:26:13,459 --> 00:26:17,001
And it it just seems like a caricature as opposed to a person.

540
00:26:17,001 --> 00:26:22,726
So um it it's hard to make a character that it's the way we do it internally,

541
00:26:23,072 --> 00:26:26,823
It's a we we talk a lot about I I like I ask questions of who is this guy?

542
00:26:26,823 --> 00:26:27,693
What were they doing before?

543
00:26:27,693 --> 00:26:29,124
What matters to you?

544
00:26:29,124 --> 00:26:31,274
You know, what how do you how does he view this?

545
00:26:31,274 --> 00:26:32,005
How does he view that?

546
00:26:32,005 --> 00:26:39,882
Who or is we do a lot of talking about are these people and we try to discover things
about them, you know, even before we play.

547
00:26:39,882 --> 00:26:45,748
I mean, sometimes more than others, wouldn't w with stories and lives for for the initial
cast for Ladybug.

548
00:26:45,748 --> 00:26:46,729
I don't know how this happened.

549
00:26:46,729 --> 00:26:47,639
This is Taylor's fault.

550
00:26:47,639 --> 00:26:49,449
I'm a I'm gonna blame Taylor for that.

551
00:26:49,449 --> 00:26:51,522
Taylor loved Dorothy from the get go.

552
00:26:51,522 --> 00:26:54,003
Like that's his that's he's been playing her forever.

553
00:26:54,003 --> 00:26:54,383
Yeah.

554
00:26:54,383 --> 00:26:55,883
That's our longest standing character.

555
00:26:55,883 --> 00:26:59,844
He started writing short fiction featuring Dorothy's background.

556
00:26:59,844 --> 00:27:02,505
And then that got Wes to write a story.

557
00:27:02,505 --> 00:27:04,826
And then that got Matt to do a story.

558
00:27:04,826 --> 00:27:07,525
And then I like wrote some shit as well for Mike.

559
00:27:07,525 --> 00:27:13,198
Like we all started writing little stories about our characters for no re just because
we're all weird role play people, right?

560
00:27:13,198 --> 00:27:13,658
Sure, yeah.

561
00:27:13,658 --> 00:27:17,809
We're like doing this little, you know, fanfic for characters we have not yet played.

562
00:27:17,809 --> 00:27:18,949
We haven't started recording yet.

563
00:27:18,949 --> 00:27:19,950
We've started wow.

564
00:27:19,950 --> 00:27:21,228
Who are these people?

565
00:27:21,228 --> 00:27:25,240
And by the time we did episode one, I mean, I knew who Willow was.

566
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:25,590
Yeah.

567
00:27:25,590 --> 00:27:27,562
From talking to Wes, from reading these stories.

568
00:27:27,562 --> 00:27:30,563
I knew the kind of things I wanted to seed into those conversations.

569
00:27:30,563 --> 00:27:36,166
I had we had figured out who George Lewiston was, the character who starts out dead.

570
00:27:36,446 --> 00:27:37,627
In episode one, he's dead.

571
00:27:37,627 --> 00:27:37,867
Yeah.

572
00:27:37,867 --> 00:27:38,117
Yeah.

573
00:27:38,117 --> 00:27:40,969
And he's an integral care part of the background of all these people.

574
00:27:40,969 --> 00:27:42,930
And I knew who he was, his connection to these people.

575
00:27:42,930 --> 00:27:45,531
I'm seeding things in to his backstory.

576
00:27:45,531 --> 00:27:50,814
And and we just then you have to let your players who would love their characters, right?

577
00:27:50,830 --> 00:27:51,574
Yeah.

578
00:27:51,574 --> 00:28:02,121
light and let them play these characters out, interact with each other, then they start
mixing up this uh and it's chemistry happens and then great things happen and then you

579
00:28:02,121 --> 00:28:04,052
move the story along, right?

580
00:28:04,322 --> 00:28:05,883
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

581
00:28:05,883 --> 00:28:08,755
And it yeah, it does it absolutely comes through, right?

582
00:28:08,755 --> 00:28:15,346
So and the the fact that you all that pre-conversation, you know, in like film, they'll
have actors sit together.

583
00:28:15,346 --> 00:28:18,083
I mean i theater too and like get to know each other.

584
00:28:18,083 --> 00:28:21,976
They're if they're couple, they should have dinner a few times before they play a couple,
right?

585
00:28:21,976 --> 00:28:29,542
So it makes sense that you guys would develop so much and like basically spitball these
guys out and start giving them shape, right?

586
00:28:29,542 --> 00:28:30,378
In like

587
00:28:30,378 --> 00:28:40,641
Mythos or these um role play like D one hundred role playing games where you have to
embody like a human, like there's so much opportunity to do that, right?

588
00:28:40,641 --> 00:28:49,633
When I think of the OSR, like the old school renaissance, you know, you're you're
basically creating character off random role tables and that's it.

589
00:28:49,633 --> 00:28:54,415
And it's it's a lot more difficult to get into something like that a lot of the time.

590
00:28:54,415 --> 00:28:58,732
And plus they have like three hit points and die anyway in like a session, but

591
00:28:58,732 --> 00:29:03,528
But I think that like that's why that's what I love about Delta Green, Call of Cthulhu and
things like that.

592
00:29:03,528 --> 00:29:09,264
You're you're able to enact things that are real more often, right?

593
00:29:09,264 --> 00:29:16,602
Not saying you can't do that in, you know, high fantasy and things like that, but there's
just something special about, you know, this this is somebody who's gonna face like

594
00:29:16,602 --> 00:29:20,296
realistic but impossible odds, you know.

595
00:29:20,754 --> 00:29:23,194
One thing like is I feel like our characters are relatable.

596
00:29:23,194 --> 00:29:23,534
Yeah.

597
00:29:23,534 --> 00:29:34,401
Because they're humans in in very human situations with families, with obligations, with
responsibilities, with uh humans humans' moral values, like that hopefully our audience

598
00:29:34,401 --> 00:29:35,432
shares, right?

599
00:29:35,432 --> 00:29:35,782
Yeah.

600
00:29:35,782 --> 00:29:44,747
And then when these characters are having these struggles, these these value struggles,
these ethical struggles, you hope the audience is also sharing those struggles and feeling

601
00:29:44,747 --> 00:29:48,049
the same pressure of what would I do if I was in that situation.

602
00:29:48,049 --> 00:29:49,710
So I think that's pretty relatable.

603
00:29:49,710 --> 00:29:50,432
Um I

604
00:29:50,432 --> 00:29:51,863
Moving forward just a second.

605
00:29:51,863 --> 00:29:52,223
Yeah.

606
00:29:52,223 --> 00:29:57,545
We're doing God's Teeth, you know, as well, which is something that is a campaign and not
just a story.

607
00:29:57,545 --> 00:30:01,107
So for God's Teeth, we did a lot of the same stuff we did for Ladybug.

608
00:30:01,107 --> 00:30:03,167
Except we didn't write any micro fiction.

609
00:30:03,308 --> 00:30:06,849
But we did a lot a lot of conversations about who these people are, what they were.

610
00:30:06,849 --> 00:30:09,130
Not just section zero, but even between that.

611
00:30:09,130 --> 00:30:15,273
And a character I play in God's Teeth, I'm really excited about because I spent a lot of
time figuring her out.

612
00:30:15,273 --> 00:30:15,573
Yeah.

613
00:30:15,573 --> 00:30:17,354
Before I even started role playing her.

614
00:30:17,354 --> 00:30:18,794
So that's that's part of

615
00:30:18,914 --> 00:30:27,751
That's part of the sauce, I think, is it's getting in the head of these characters early
enough and that you can really jump in there and and you're and you wanna find out what

616
00:30:27,751 --> 00:30:28,638
happens to this person.

617
00:30:28,638 --> 00:30:29,293
You get attached.

618
00:30:29,293 --> 00:30:31,695
For better or for worse, right?

619
00:30:31,695 --> 00:30:33,486
You get attached to these characters.

620
00:30:33,486 --> 00:30:34,628
Yes, yeah.

621
00:30:34,628 --> 00:30:35,829
Yeah, it's for Savannah.

622
00:30:35,829 --> 00:30:44,633
Was this something in your head that had been kind of floating around before God's teeth,
or when when God's teeth came up, you're like, Okay, I'm gonna do some thinking and pick

623
00:30:44,633 --> 00:30:45,003
this out.

624
00:30:45,003 --> 00:30:47,116
Like how did you come to that character?

625
00:30:47,278 --> 00:30:51,641
Yeah, I mean it's a lot of I don't know, it's hard to I don't remember but I do remember
this.

626
00:30:51,641 --> 00:30:56,725
Um at some point I I wanted to based on what other people are doing, right?

627
00:30:56,725 --> 00:30:59,807
I wanted to go the federal agent, but I didn't want to do a federal agent.

628
00:30:59,807 --> 00:31:02,029
I ended up with a marshal, but I didn't want to be a marshal.

629
00:31:02,029 --> 00:31:03,170
It's bunch of this process.

630
00:31:03,170 --> 00:31:03,469
Yeah.

631
00:31:03,469 --> 00:31:09,444
But I I ultimately chose a character that actually my sister is the i inspiration for a
lot of this stuff.

632
00:31:09,444 --> 00:31:10,595
That's for the fun part for me.

633
00:31:10,595 --> 00:31:10,905
Yeah.

634
00:31:10,905 --> 00:31:15,116
I took my sister in her background and and completely changed it, obviously.

635
00:31:15,116 --> 00:31:15,356
Sure.

636
00:31:15,356 --> 00:31:24,030
I but you start I start with a real person like and her and a background in a story to
figure out how to emulate a lot of this the day-to-day stuff.

637
00:31:24,030 --> 00:31:30,843
And then I started adding, adding, adding details and background and talked to Matt about
details that may may or may not ever come out.

638
00:31:30,843 --> 00:31:31,654
I don't know.

639
00:31:31,654 --> 00:31:33,594
Probably probably will knowing Matt.

640
00:31:34,275 --> 00:31:37,896
But you but I did start with a real human person who I know.

641
00:31:37,977 --> 00:31:41,778
And then I went from that person and developed a whole other person.

642
00:31:42,030 --> 00:31:42,651
That's cool.

643
00:31:42,651 --> 00:31:44,393
Yeah, that's that's awesome.

644
00:31:44,393 --> 00:31:50,722
A lot of people like look into other fiction a lot of the times and I think that's where
you can get into the caricature.

645
00:31:50,722 --> 00:31:55,438
But when you like can ground it to a real person, that's um that's really fun.

646
00:31:55,438 --> 00:31:57,280
And especially if somebody close to you.

647
00:31:57,368 --> 00:32:01,039
Yeah, I I I I really I love that character and I hope nothing happens to her.

648
00:32:01,039 --> 00:32:07,741
Uh whereas the character I'm playing in Taylor's story, which we just finished, yeah is
one that I don't really love.

649
00:32:07,741 --> 00:32:13,282
I mean, I I can play him, but I don't I don't relate to him or understand him at all.

650
00:32:13,282 --> 00:32:15,613
I just do the best I can to fake that character.

651
00:32:15,613 --> 00:32:25,086
As like Julian, my my tro my struggling artist character, yeah, you know, with who's a
just a uh very uh you can see that he's not me.

652
00:32:25,086 --> 00:32:25,826
I don't know.

653
00:32:25,826 --> 00:32:26,907
Yeah, yeah.

654
00:32:26,967 --> 00:32:27,688
Yeah.

655
00:32:27,688 --> 00:32:37,038
No, I th I've I thought you've been playing him well, like especially like the like he's
an artist, but he's more kind of like a a mimicry artist or like he's good at copying,

656
00:32:37,038 --> 00:32:37,318
right?

657
00:32:37,318 --> 00:32:43,464
Like he can he can do that, but he may maybe doesn't necessarily have his own internal
well of like ideas, right?

658
00:32:43,464 --> 00:32:44,686
So yeah.

659
00:32:44,686 --> 00:32:46,457
Yeah, I'm excited to see what happens with Julian.

660
00:32:46,457 --> 00:32:49,120
I'm sure it's like what, next week or the week after?

661
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,285
Yeah, I for for our per ours for our purposes, I don't know when this is coming out as a
recording.

662
00:32:53,609 --> 00:32:54,936
It's gonna be like next week, right?

663
00:32:54,936 --> 00:32:55,406
Great.

664
00:32:55,406 --> 00:32:55,747
Cool.

665
00:32:55,747 --> 00:32:56,947
Yeah, I'm excited.

666
00:32:56,947 --> 00:33:03,052
From a storytelling perspective, God's teeth ends whatever's in between the next few
chapters is over.

667
00:33:03,052 --> 00:33:05,753
And you're, you know, setting the stage for your own story.

668
00:33:05,753 --> 00:33:09,456
Like what what type of experiments do you want to do in the future with a storytelling?

669
00:33:09,456 --> 00:33:12,508
Or what are you passionate about for yourself next?

670
00:33:12,508 --> 00:33:18,792
And you don't have to reveal details, but just thematically generally like what's what's
hyping you up.

671
00:33:19,530 --> 00:33:29,558
I when I started out, I think like most handlers, GMs, whatever start, we we do tend to
stay really close to the written materials that are that are really well done.

672
00:33:29,558 --> 00:33:37,425
Delta Green's got some amazing published scenarios that are like a a crutch for you as a
new handler, storyteller, GM, whatever.

673
00:33:37,425 --> 00:33:39,667
And like I I started out with those, right?

674
00:33:39,667 --> 00:33:42,729
And as I've been going along, I've been doing more and more of my own stuff.

675
00:33:42,729 --> 00:33:42,959
Yep.

676
00:33:42,959 --> 00:33:48,598
So I've I've been I've been mostly looking forward to creating my own stuff, and that's
that's that's a hell of a

677
00:33:48,598 --> 00:33:49,949
an ask, right?

678
00:33:49,949 --> 00:33:50,279
Yes.

679
00:33:50,279 --> 00:33:51,559
That that's a hell of an ask.

680
00:33:51,559 --> 00:33:53,530
I I feel pretty good like, I'll figure something out.

681
00:33:53,530 --> 00:33:57,401
'Cause I I I guess I have, but but I I don't have it yet.

682
00:33:57,401 --> 00:34:05,725
So I I do after this after we do God's teeth, which is a second chapter, which is called
Red Thoughts, like I'm on deck for the next story.

683
00:34:05,725 --> 00:34:08,766
So I'm like I'm in this the batting circles, but I'm doing it.

684
00:34:08,766 --> 00:34:10,446
And I'm actually working on it.

685
00:34:10,446 --> 00:34:13,568
It's kind of fun because Taylor we're working on art for that already.

686
00:34:13,568 --> 00:34:15,253
I'm working on we're working on characters for that.

687
00:34:15,253 --> 00:34:17,909
We're we're all get working on that in the

688
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,911
Even though we're not playing that for who knows when.

689
00:34:20,911 --> 00:34:22,652
But on that I'm up next.

690
00:34:23,002 --> 00:34:25,913
Matt's gonna give me a breather doing more God's teeth.

691
00:34:25,913 --> 00:34:28,894
And then after that I need something entirely new.

692
00:34:28,894 --> 00:34:29,844
Entirely new.

693
00:34:29,844 --> 00:34:31,635
And I don't know what that's gonna be.

694
00:34:31,635 --> 00:34:37,117
I'm in that spot where like I think we've all been there as a handler where you're like,
or GM, you finish a story.

695
00:34:37,617 --> 00:34:42,439
People are the players love it, they wanna do something else, but you don't have something
else.

696
00:34:42,439 --> 00:34:42,679
Yeah.

697
00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:42,970
Yet.

698
00:34:42,970 --> 00:34:43,404
Exactly.

699
00:34:43,404 --> 00:34:46,561
And so at some point inspiration will strike.

700
00:34:46,561 --> 00:34:47,873
But I mean I'm up

701
00:34:47,873 --> 00:34:49,414
Back to your original question.

702
00:34:49,414 --> 00:34:53,856
What I'm doing with the next story, I feel good about because it's kind of it's kind of
it's different.

703
00:34:53,856 --> 00:34:56,116
And I really like doing stuff that's different.

704
00:34:56,116 --> 00:34:57,357
It's a challenge.

705
00:34:57,357 --> 00:34:57,697
Yeah.

706
00:34:57,697 --> 00:34:59,468
It's a format's structure a little different.

707
00:34:59,468 --> 00:35:03,456
It's a little bit more uh surreal, I guess, is the best way I put it.

708
00:35:03,456 --> 00:35:07,942
It's not gonna be linear, it's it's a little more weird, which we've been had some good
success with.

709
00:35:07,942 --> 00:35:11,223
But after that, I need to find a new direction.

710
00:35:11,223 --> 00:35:17,826
So yeah, we've we've had a lot of luck with kind of picking these themes of stories and
then doing a

711
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,252
Doing uh following the theme, right?

712
00:35:20,252 --> 00:35:20,561
Yeah.

713
00:35:20,561 --> 00:35:23,895
It could be pulp, spy, spy fiction, you know.

714
00:35:23,895 --> 00:35:28,719
Um I I don't even know what c you call days long since remembered.

715
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:29,020
Yeah.

716
00:35:29,020 --> 00:35:31,342
But we always have these different kind of modes.

717
00:35:31,342 --> 00:35:31,672
Yeah.

718
00:35:31,672 --> 00:35:35,946
I I need to do something that's very much conspiracy war, is what I'm trying to do.

719
00:35:35,946 --> 00:35:40,750
Something that's conflict in the na late nineties, Delta Green versus Majestic.

720
00:35:40,750 --> 00:35:41,210
Yeah.

721
00:35:41,210 --> 00:35:45,834
And I need to I need to find the the vehicle for that story.

722
00:35:45,869 --> 00:35:46,434
Yeah.

723
00:35:46,434 --> 00:35:47,476
I'll figure it out one day.

724
00:35:47,476 --> 00:35:51,142
I don't know what day that is, but I'll figure that out at some point.

725
00:35:51,374 --> 00:35:51,864
That's cool.

726
00:35:51,864 --> 00:35:52,204
Yeah.

727
00:35:52,204 --> 00:35:54,726
And that's a great fertile space, right?

728
00:35:54,726 --> 00:35:56,257
That's like such a fun thing.

729
00:35:56,257 --> 00:36:04,051
Like you're interacting with the unnatural, but then you have this deep state for lack of
a better term, like destroying itself essentially.

730
00:36:04,051 --> 00:36:06,578
So yeah, that's really cool.

731
00:36:06,578 --> 00:36:17,075
And I'm really happy the Delta Green authors have done a great job of making a story world
with a lot of great story hooks and built in conflicts and lots of wonderful gray areas we

732
00:36:17,075 --> 00:36:17,926
can explore.

733
00:36:17,926 --> 00:36:24,870
And I think um like I've been talking with the guys offline about the way I view the
majestic group is different than other people.

734
00:36:24,870 --> 00:36:25,651
Interesting, yeah.

735
00:36:25,651 --> 00:36:33,786
Like I'm because I I like to view them as a a a committee of individuals, not like one
single minded individual, right?

736
00:36:33,786 --> 00:36:34,167
Sure.

737
00:36:34,167 --> 00:36:36,658
Which means there's there's competing agendas.

738
00:36:36,940 --> 00:36:37,120
Yeah.

739
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:43,195
And and this there's never one version of the of the um steering committee.

740
00:36:43,195 --> 00:36:46,177
It's just it's just twelve different people's opinions.

741
00:36:46,838 --> 00:36:54,613
It's a giant bureaucracy that causes a lot of trouble that it's it's it's gonna ultimately
turn on itself because that's how this works, right?

742
00:36:54,613 --> 00:36:55,057
Yeah.

743
00:36:55,057 --> 00:36:58,186
But how do you get individual stories within that?

744
00:36:58,186 --> 00:36:59,527
How do you show those stories?

745
00:36:59,527 --> 00:37:02,409
How do your players affect those stories?

746
00:37:02,409 --> 00:37:03,788
That's that's the challenge.

747
00:37:03,788 --> 00:37:04,909
Yeah, that's interesting.

748
00:37:04,909 --> 00:37:10,512
And I mean, I know play you're still playing through God's teeth, but you know, this isn't
like spoilery or anything.

749
00:37:10,512 --> 00:37:23,058
But the God's teeth is really it's not necessarily about the bureaucracy of like the deep
state or the CIA or whatever it may be, but it is about the like that the system that can

750
00:37:23,058 --> 00:37:29,272
just crush individuals and like getting lost in that and where can you even change or
control it, right?

751
00:37:29,272 --> 00:37:33,794
And I think, you know, Caleb Stokes like my favorite like um

752
00:37:33,902 --> 00:37:41,329
probably author in the Delta Green space, you know, his he's very pessimistic with his
like outcomes of that like question, right?

753
00:37:41,329 --> 00:37:44,982
So I would be curious like what your, you know, answer to that is.

754
00:37:44,982 --> 00:37:47,024
You don't seem as pessimistic as Caleb, I guess.

755
00:37:47,024 --> 00:37:47,774
So

756
00:37:47,862 --> 00:37:54,328
Yeah, I I I find these systems to be somewhat agnostic or somewhat some of like like law
lawful neutral, I guess is the better to put it.

757
00:37:54,328 --> 00:37:57,349
And individuals can push the levers in either direction.

758
00:37:57,410 --> 00:37:59,242
So I don't I don't view the system as corrupt.

759
00:37:59,242 --> 00:38:04,876
I view it just individuals within the system, you know, bend and shape it.

760
00:38:05,337 --> 00:38:07,478
It depends on who you have at the levers.

761
00:38:07,554 --> 00:38:09,535
Yeah, it's like a mechanism of control, right?

762
00:38:09,535 --> 00:38:13,330
Like you have this s it is like yeah, a system, right?

763
00:38:13,330 --> 00:38:19,497
And there has to be intent behind the system that like causes the pain, right?

764
00:38:19,497 --> 00:38:22,591
Or causes, you know, like things to get better, right?

765
00:38:22,591 --> 00:38:24,874
Like that intent behind it is important.

766
00:38:24,874 --> 00:38:25,684
Yeah.

767
00:38:25,740 --> 00:38:26,231
Yeah.

768
00:38:26,231 --> 00:38:30,074
I mean I know Caleb has a very much a sense of the soulless system, right?

769
00:38:30,074 --> 00:38:30,474
Mm-hmm.

770
00:38:30,474 --> 00:38:36,039
That just it just kind of causes misery by existence.

771
00:38:36,039 --> 00:38:45,007
And there is there's guess some truth to that because so much of the system is
dehumanizing and making making individuals into collectives, you know, and yeah.

772
00:38:45,007 --> 00:38:53,890
And people get lost in the cracks all the time when you make everybody a you know, a
square or a circle or try to make a one rule for all or whatever, you know.

773
00:38:53,890 --> 00:38:54,750
Yeah.

774
00:38:54,792 --> 00:39:01,756
So s systems are systems aren't good or bad, but they do have a lot of lot of negative
outcomes, obviously.

775
00:39:01,772 --> 00:39:11,630
As we're getting toward the end of our time here, anything else you want to talk about or
like anything that you think is interesting, um, that's worth exploring quickly?

776
00:39:11,630 --> 00:39:12,030
Yeah.

777
00:39:12,030 --> 00:39:15,720
So what yeah, one I guess one thing I do want to say when I was I was thinking about this
conversation here.

778
00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:16,471
Yeah.

779
00:39:16,471 --> 00:39:18,692
and some of the questions leading up to it.

780
00:39:18,692 --> 00:39:29,605
Um I think one thing that is hard and for for me and maybe you know the same system, same
feeling, is um when we make this stuff, like we make stuff sometimes we we could create

781
00:39:29,605 --> 00:39:34,277
stuff that is amazing, that we love, are passionate about, we wanna share it.

782
00:39:34,277 --> 00:39:35,473
It turned out better than we thought.

783
00:39:35,473 --> 00:39:37,338
We're just so proud, right?

784
00:39:37,338 --> 00:39:37,568
Yeah.

785
00:39:37,568 --> 00:39:39,038
And this happens with

786
00:39:39,050 --> 00:39:45,613
artists, with musicians, with any kind of people in the arts where you make great things
and then it just never gets discovered.

787
00:39:46,134 --> 00:39:54,449
And it that's and that is that is I don't know how to fix that problem, but that was in to
me in the first two years, maybe even now, of doing this, that was my biggest struggle.

788
00:39:54,449 --> 00:39:58,141
It wasn't doing the art and showing up and doing the work.

789
00:39:58,141 --> 00:40:02,433
It was now that I've done it, does anybody even care?

790
00:40:02,433 --> 00:40:03,604
Did anyone hear it?

791
00:40:03,604 --> 00:40:04,967
Is there is there an audience?

792
00:40:04,967 --> 00:40:06,085
And it's it's wonderful.

793
00:40:06,085 --> 00:40:07,736
I love it when people do

794
00:40:07,736 --> 00:40:10,388
Tell us, like people show up and tell us that they heard it.

795
00:40:10,388 --> 00:40:12,869
'Cause that that's so reassuring.

796
00:40:12,869 --> 00:40:19,172
Um, but it took a long time, at least for for me to for mainstream, I ph if it's a
mainstream of Delta Green.

797
00:40:19,172 --> 00:40:29,548
Yeah, to like even like I I felt like we people were listening to us, but almost like felt
I felt for a long time like we were just kind of lost, like like a small group of

798
00:40:29,548 --> 00:40:32,380
listeners in a big group of role players.

799
00:40:32,380 --> 00:40:37,270
And whenever someone would talk about podcasts, it was always the same two podcasts that
they would mention.

800
00:40:37,270 --> 00:40:37,520
Sure.

801
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:37,700
Yeah.

802
00:40:37,700 --> 00:40:39,031
And that that always bugged me.

803
00:40:39,031 --> 00:40:39,961
It was it was irrational.

804
00:40:39,961 --> 00:40:41,171
It was an emotional thing for me.

805
00:40:41,171 --> 00:40:46,853
Like if you just listen to what we did, maybe maybe you would but it it has it has it's
changed.

806
00:40:46,853 --> 00:40:47,293
I'll put it that way.

807
00:40:47,293 --> 00:40:51,154
It's changed as more and more people do the the word eventually gets out.

808
00:40:51,154 --> 00:40:52,574
It just takes time.

809
00:40:52,574 --> 00:40:57,475
So for anybody who's new and and and like it may take a couple of years.

810
00:40:57,475 --> 00:41:05,188
And maybe be your not your first, second, or maybe your third story hits or something just
happens along the run that catches fire for whatever reason.

811
00:41:05,188 --> 00:41:06,258
Who knows the reason?

812
00:41:06,258 --> 00:41:07,084
Yep.

813
00:41:07,084 --> 00:41:16,198
I do feel like over time the art gets respect, but it it takes a while and that that can
be frustrating.

814
00:41:16,302 --> 00:41:23,046
Absolutely I mean, just like, you know, in the taking a micro and making it macro, like
Lovecraft himself, right?

815
00:41:23,046 --> 00:41:26,278
No fame at all um during his life, right?

816
00:41:26,278 --> 00:41:29,690
So like very you're devastating for him like as a person, right?

817
00:41:29,690 --> 00:41:36,363
But yeah, there is this like and this is what I think of like post episode blues, right?

818
00:41:36,363 --> 00:41:44,058
Where you release something and then you get, you know, some like some people in Discord
are like, yeah, this is great, da da da.

819
00:41:44,058 --> 00:41:44,910
But then you're just

820
00:41:44,910 --> 00:41:48,823
There's something in the back of my head sometimes where I'm just like, does anybody give
a shit?

821
00:41:48,823 --> 00:41:49,143
Right.

822
00:41:49,143 --> 00:41:52,595
You know, like you're just like, you know, I love this, I love producing it.

823
00:41:52,595 --> 00:41:54,697
So that's enough for me to keep doing it.

824
00:41:54,697 --> 00:41:59,860
But then there is that voice that's like, but no one like how many people are really
listening to it?

825
00:41:59,860 --> 00:42:01,612
Like, you know, I don't know.

826
00:42:01,612 --> 00:42:07,246
I mean, I do because I can I can see the the downloads, but yeah, it is a tough place to
be, right?

827
00:42:07,246 --> 00:42:10,708
And growing a show um can be hard.

828
00:42:10,708 --> 00:42:13,920
But I I do think what you're saying, like just keeping at it.

829
00:42:13,935 --> 00:42:14,690
And

830
00:42:14,690 --> 00:42:24,904
Focusing on like the, you know, why you love doing it and continuing to push that weight,
I think it does start to separate you from the people who are in it just to like get

831
00:42:24,904 --> 00:42:30,466
listens or to monetize or to, you know, someday be able to play ads, right?

832
00:42:30,466 --> 00:42:35,138
Like for me, I was like, I'll never I never want to make money off of this.

833
00:42:35,138 --> 00:42:36,549
I just want to do this for fun.

834
00:42:36,549 --> 00:42:38,150
I don't want to like ever have ads.

835
00:42:38,150 --> 00:42:42,251
Maybe I would do a coffee or something like that just to pay for the cost of running it.

836
00:42:42,251 --> 00:42:44,482
Um, but like

837
00:42:44,588 --> 00:42:48,818
you know, just honing in on like your own values in the space, right?

838
00:42:48,818 --> 00:42:50,061
And keep going, right.

839
00:42:50,061 --> 00:42:53,919
And I think people will eventually see that and come to your show.

840
00:42:53,919 --> 00:42:54,921
So yeah.

841
00:42:55,244 --> 00:42:55,764
Yeah, yeah.

842
00:42:55,764 --> 00:43:00,597
I mean for I mean for us, we we all we love playing, we love doing all that stuff great.

843
00:43:00,877 --> 00:43:03,859
We and that's that's a that's hell of a motivation right there.

844
00:43:03,859 --> 00:43:08,521
But we we've talked about it internally, like none of us are gonna we're never gonna put
ads on it, whatever.

845
00:43:08,521 --> 00:43:09,442
Sure.

846
00:43:09,442 --> 00:43:13,164
And the other guys that I work with are are very much cool.

847
00:43:13,164 --> 00:43:16,556
Like if we have two listeners or or twenty or whatever, they don't care.

848
00:43:16,556 --> 00:43:20,618
They're pretty much like, I don't care, I'm happy with the show, I like it.

849
00:43:20,618 --> 00:43:25,014
Like for I guess for me I always I always got a little bit like I I just

850
00:43:25,014 --> 00:43:31,151
I want I want the main I always wanted the mainstream of Delta Green to at least know it.

851
00:43:31,151 --> 00:43:33,103
I don't know whether they like it or not, whatever.

852
00:43:33,103 --> 00:43:34,655
But at least to have heard of it.

853
00:43:34,655 --> 00:43:38,089
That was my irrational I don't know what that word is.

854
00:43:38,089 --> 00:43:38,749
Insecurity.

855
00:43:38,749 --> 00:43:39,488
That's my insecurity.

856
00:43:39,488 --> 00:43:40,089
insecurity.

857
00:43:40,089 --> 00:43:40,409
Yeah.

858
00:43:40,409 --> 00:43:41,000
Yeah.

859
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:42,141
I mean, that makes sense, right?

860
00:43:42,141 --> 00:43:51,159
And I think a lot of like when you do feel confident as a storyteller and you feel like
your stories are good and you have something to share, it can be tough, right?

861
00:43:51,159 --> 00:43:54,152
Like if you don't feel like you're able to share it, right?

862
00:43:54,152 --> 00:43:56,874
It is a it's an audience problem, right?

863
00:43:56,874 --> 00:44:01,229
Where it's like, I know the story's good, like it resonates with the people who are seeing
it.

864
00:44:01,229 --> 00:44:05,122
Like, how do I get more people to see this and and have it resonate?

865
00:44:05,122 --> 00:44:06,534
with those people as well, right?

866
00:44:06,534 --> 00:44:09,669
'Cause I think it does have something to offer the world, right?

867
00:44:09,669 --> 00:44:15,297
And it's tough, like if you feel like that's not happening or that you can't execute on
that like enough.

868
00:44:15,297 --> 00:44:16,448
You know what I mean?

869
00:44:16,930 --> 00:44:19,233
Yeah, so maybe that's something I would tell my younger self.

870
00:44:19,816 --> 00:44:22,080
Yeah, it let it just let it be.

871
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:22,981
Have some patience.

872
00:44:22,981 --> 00:44:23,723
Give it some time.

873
00:44:23,723 --> 00:44:25,605
It'll yeah, it'll it'll work out.

874
00:44:25,887 --> 00:44:30,114
That that that would be good advice for for young young Tom just starting this thing out.

875
00:44:30,114 --> 00:44:30,614
Yeah.

876
00:44:30,614 --> 00:44:40,208
I mean, what I will say is, you know, you know, I reached out to you first just because I
respect you as like a creator and you know, we don't have a lot of connections between our

877
00:44:40,208 --> 00:44:41,559
shows or anything, right?

878
00:44:41,559 --> 00:44:48,532
When I think of okay, where I want to grow as a storyteller, somebody embodying a
character, it is your show.

879
00:44:48,532 --> 00:44:53,504
It's not glass cannon or like big ones, like I don't those the shows honestly kind of
annoy me.

880
00:44:53,504 --> 00:44:57,036
So but like it is it is really a stories and lies.

881
00:44:57,036 --> 00:44:57,870
So yeah.

882
00:44:57,870 --> 00:44:58,290
Appreciate that.

883
00:44:58,290 --> 00:45:03,236
Yeah, I mean we're cause that we are not a live performance role play show.

884
00:45:03,236 --> 00:45:05,698
Those are those those are different vehicles.

885
00:45:05,698 --> 00:45:13,690
They're there to entertain, to do live improv using role playing games as a way to do that
live comedy, whatever, that's their show.

886
00:45:13,690 --> 00:45:17,641
Um You you did borrow Mark, didn't you?

887
00:45:17,641 --> 00:45:18,451
Yeah.

888
00:45:19,193 --> 00:45:19,973
It was amazing.

889
00:45:19,973 --> 00:45:20,672
I love that.

890
00:45:20,672 --> 00:45:21,333
Yeah.

891
00:45:21,333 --> 00:45:21,653
Yeah.

892
00:45:21,653 --> 00:45:24,375
And Mark, I I'm so jealous of Mark's voice.

893
00:45:24,375 --> 00:45:28,328
Like every time I hear it, I'm just like, man, this guy has such a voice, right?

894
00:45:28,328 --> 00:45:31,961
Like, and he I mean, cause he's fairly new to the crew, right?

895
00:45:31,961 --> 00:45:37,675
I don't know how new he is to role playing, but like like lightning in a bottle with that
guy, right?

896
00:45:37,675 --> 00:45:38,987
Like, I'm just like, whoa.

897
00:45:38,987 --> 00:45:43,566
But yeah, like I love the idea of putting a cow, you know, or a human brain in

898
00:45:43,566 --> 00:45:45,991
Well, I don't want to spoil too much, but like you know what I'm saying.

899
00:45:45,991 --> 00:45:51,271
Some Migo business and I wanted to s have one of our characters sent off like that.

900
00:45:51,271 --> 00:45:55,088
So it was it was cool that you guys were open to like sharing that with me.

901
00:45:55,088 --> 00:45:55,669
I loved it.

902
00:45:55,669 --> 00:45:56,310
Yeah.

903
00:45:56,310 --> 00:45:56,740
That's really cool.

904
00:45:56,740 --> 00:46:02,330
I mean I yeah, I I really I I I like where our show fits in the I don't know what you call
it, cosmology.

905
00:46:02,330 --> 00:46:04,946
But that's the kind of sh that's the kind of game we like to play.

906
00:46:04,946 --> 00:46:05,746
That's really yeah.

907
00:46:05,746 --> 00:46:07,968
It's not like we're we did it intentionally.

908
00:46:07,968 --> 00:46:10,039
That's just the way we like to play gaze games.

909
00:46:10,039 --> 00:46:10,319
Yeah.

910
00:46:10,319 --> 00:46:12,281
We're very we're very character centered.

911
00:46:12,281 --> 00:46:15,463
And in and my I mean I I went to school as a writer.

912
00:46:15,463 --> 00:46:18,285
That's about my I'm talking about my background is writing.

913
00:46:18,285 --> 00:46:18,685
Yeah.

914
00:46:18,685 --> 00:46:20,814
Um, and then I went to law school

915
00:46:20,814 --> 00:46:23,466
Because I want to get a job or what I want to like make a living.

916
00:46:23,466 --> 00:46:23,995
I want yeah, yeah.

917
00:46:23,995 --> 00:46:25,378
I want to pay my rent.

918
00:46:25,378 --> 00:46:25,788
Yeah.

919
00:46:25,788 --> 00:46:26,839
You know what mean?

920
00:46:26,839 --> 00:46:32,644
But I I I have I have some training in in writing and screenwriting and all that stuff in
theater and all that.

921
00:46:32,644 --> 00:46:40,110
But and my what I was taught early on, this idea of a story is a character in conflict.

922
00:46:40,170 --> 00:46:41,541
It's character in conflict.

923
00:46:41,541 --> 00:46:42,712
That all boils down to it.

924
00:46:42,712 --> 00:46:49,868
And it's not the conflict that's the story, it's the people that are in it and what
decisions they make.

925
00:46:49,868 --> 00:46:51,349
And that's and that's the audience.

926
00:46:51,349 --> 00:46:54,040
We're following these people and their decisions.

927
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:58,343
And that's that's what gets us interested as an audience and television, movies, whatever.

928
00:46:58,343 --> 00:47:03,185
It's about following a character through their conflict, their decisions, their struggles.

929
00:47:03,205 --> 00:47:05,947
And that's that's always been my focus when I've done role playing games.

930
00:47:05,947 --> 00:47:08,028
You know, well, not always.

931
00:47:08,028 --> 00:47:17,433
When it was D and D that w it wasn't it it was but we I do have a background in doing the
white wolf storytelling game system.

932
00:47:17,433 --> 00:47:18,872
That was one of my first

933
00:47:18,872 --> 00:47:23,440
Formative role playing uh for rays and that's all about characters.

934
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,321
oh

935
00:47:25,321 --> 00:47:27,790
I've never heard of it, so I'm gonna note it here.

936
00:47:27,790 --> 00:47:27,950
Yeah.

937
00:47:27,950 --> 00:47:31,291
I'll I'll if you give me one minute, I'll I'll give you that I'll I'll give you that go.

938
00:47:31,291 --> 00:47:43,530
So so White Wolf is a company that came out in the nineties that was very much angst, you
know very it was grunge angst the crow kind of stuff, you know.

939
00:47:43,530 --> 00:47:44,029
Yeah, yeah.

940
00:47:44,029 --> 00:47:45,570
But it they started out with Vampire.

941
00:47:45,570 --> 00:47:46,440
That was their first game.

942
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:47,741
Vampire the Masquerade.

943
00:47:47,741 --> 00:47:49,872
Oh and they made bunch of other games.

944
00:47:49,872 --> 00:47:50,152
Yeah.

945
00:47:50,152 --> 00:47:51,303
World of Darkness story.

946
00:47:51,303 --> 00:47:54,584
But all their games are were a twist on the convention.

947
00:47:54,584 --> 00:47:56,205
That was their novel twist.

948
00:47:56,205 --> 00:47:57,886
Was these people.

949
00:47:57,974 --> 00:47:59,735
And then it could be a vampire, right?

950
00:47:59,735 --> 00:48:04,116
But vampires are interesting because they have been living a long time.

951
00:48:04,116 --> 00:48:06,156
They have a hell of a backstory.

952
00:48:06,456 --> 00:48:14,087
And it's all about their interests, their desires, their conflicts, their and it's very
social as opposed to dungeon crawl fighting.

953
00:48:14,087 --> 00:48:16,089
There's there's combat like there always is.

954
00:48:16,089 --> 00:48:16,636
But sure.

955
00:48:16,636 --> 00:48:23,221
It really is when we made vampire characters at the table, it was okay, your guy was born
in 1842.

956
00:48:23,481 --> 00:48:26,862
Where has he been for the last two 120 what it years?

957
00:48:26,862 --> 00:48:28,003
What's his story?

958
00:48:28,003 --> 00:48:28,871
Yeah.

959
00:48:28,879 --> 00:48:35,548
and so it was focused on the people on their backstory and that got us thinking about
these characters.

960
00:48:36,170 --> 00:48:39,138
More so than the monster of the week.

961
00:48:39,138 --> 00:48:40,018
Yeah, exactly.

962
00:48:40,018 --> 00:48:44,289
Like how how can I use these two spells in the next combat encounter?

963
00:48:44,289 --> 00:48:44,760
Right.

964
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:45,920
So yeah.

965
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:46,690
No, that's great.

966
00:48:46,690 --> 00:48:47,420
Yeah, sorry.

967
00:48:47,420 --> 00:48:56,863
Why I didn't realize it was the company that did World of Darkness stuff, but I I've never
played but like there was a show called Have you heard of Real Lich Hours?

968
00:48:58,063 --> 00:49:07,816
It they did a world of uh like World of Darkness, Vampire the Masquerade season where they
just did like the one of the video games, but then use that as a way to go through the

969
00:49:07,816 --> 00:49:09,356
source books and

970
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,453
Get an understanding of factions and classes and things like that.

971
00:49:13,453 --> 00:49:14,444
Very interesting show.

972
00:49:14,444 --> 00:49:16,115
So yeah, it's worth the listen.

973
00:49:16,115 --> 00:49:16,435
Yeah.

974
00:49:16,435 --> 00:49:16,956
Okay.

975
00:49:16,956 --> 00:49:17,876
Yeah.

976
00:49:18,177 --> 00:49:18,447
Yeah.

977
00:49:18,447 --> 00:49:20,819
Well, Tom, thank you.

978
00:49:20,819 --> 00:49:22,570
I appreciate you sitting down with me.

979
00:49:22,570 --> 00:49:32,087
Um, it was great to like meet you this way and um that you're able also just to be a
little vulnerable with me and talk through some of the insecurities was awesome to hear.

980
00:49:32,087 --> 00:49:36,490
And I think people who listen to this will appreciate that as well.

981
00:49:37,006 --> 00:49:37,676
Yeah, I appreciate it.

982
00:49:37,676 --> 00:49:39,487
I I I'm happy to talk about this.

983
00:49:39,487 --> 00:49:41,079
I I I do love this stuff.

984
00:49:41,079 --> 00:49:42,350
I I really honestly do.

985
00:49:42,350 --> 00:49:47,626
I mean, I've I've got a day job, I've got a career, I've got a family, and those things
are those things are important.

986
00:49:47,626 --> 00:49:48,524
Yeah, obviously.

987
00:49:48,524 --> 00:49:57,570
We we we got our we both have kids, we've got we got professional jobs we've got we've
been trained for and educated for that we gotta do.

988
00:49:57,570 --> 00:50:02,793
Um but we I think we all need like a little s I don't know, that creativity.

989
00:50:02,793 --> 00:50:06,606
I need I needed that something in my life and

990
00:50:06,636 --> 00:50:12,057
And for some people it's it's that could be painting, you know, it could be gardening, I
don't know.

991
00:50:12,057 --> 00:50:13,519
It could be pottery.

992
00:50:13,519 --> 00:50:15,019
It uh some some guys is golf.

993
00:50:15,019 --> 00:50:15,530
I don't know.

994
00:50:15,530 --> 00:50:17,951
But this is my thing, man.

995
00:50:17,951 --> 00:50:27,345
This role playing games, I just decided when I was, I don't know, thirty or forty, that
even though I've got a career, this is not some stupid kids game I w you know, it's not

996
00:50:27,345 --> 00:50:29,105
some fun, silly hobby.

997
00:50:29,105 --> 00:50:30,831
It's just something that I enjoy.

998
00:50:30,831 --> 00:50:32,797
I I really love this stuff.

999
00:50:33,487 --> 00:50:35,468
and and I wanna keep doing it and I wanna

1000
00:50:35,468 --> 00:50:35,929
I'm happy.

1001
00:50:35,929 --> 00:50:36,801
I love talking about it.

1002
00:50:36,801 --> 00:50:38,264
I love participating in it.

1003
00:50:38,264 --> 00:50:43,394
I like trying to make something better than what I've done, you know, before, I guess.

1004
00:50:43,394 --> 00:50:44,635
Yeah, absolutely.

1005
00:50:44,635 --> 00:50:46,976
And I think you're you're you're succeeding.

1006
00:50:46,976 --> 00:50:50,137
So like, yeah, I think you should definitely keep it up.

1007
00:50:50,137 --> 00:50:51,727
So and I know you will.

1008
00:50:51,727 --> 00:50:52,798
So yeah.

1009
00:50:53,418 --> 00:50:53,888
Awesome.

1010
00:50:53,888 --> 00:50:55,939
Well, anything you want to plug before you go?

1011
00:50:55,939 --> 00:50:59,771
I know you're wrapping up an arc and you're about to start um the next part of God's
teeth.

1012
00:50:59,771 --> 00:51:02,650
Anything else you want to mention here at the end for people to check out?

1013
00:51:02,650 --> 00:51:07,941
I I'll say mean if if if people if people are hearing this and are not are not familiar
with us, I mean that's that's great.

1014
00:51:07,941 --> 00:51:15,093
Uh that's um we're our podcast is called Stories and Lies and it's a little and persand,
which messes up your search.

1015
00:51:16,114 --> 00:51:20,815
But but we we do primarily Delta Green settings and stories.

1016
00:51:20,815 --> 00:51:25,096
And and I I am the I guess I'm the primary handler, I don't know.

1017
00:51:25,096 --> 00:51:28,517
But we do rotate storytellers, right?

1018
00:51:28,517 --> 00:51:31,968
And we've been telling a couple of different long form stories and we

1019
00:51:32,056 --> 00:51:36,889
Do it it's really about I'd say about three stories a year or basically is how we do it.

1020
00:51:36,889 --> 00:51:41,712
We're every Monday, every Monday we got a new chapter, about an hour long podcast comes
out.

1021
00:51:41,712 --> 00:51:45,255
Um and if if you like it, I I hope people enjoy it.

1022
00:51:45,255 --> 00:51:54,821
We do it the audience and if you want to say hi, we've got a a Discord and stuff you can
say hi and we'd love to we'd love to we like hearing that too.

1023
00:51:54,821 --> 00:51:55,602
We like to praise it.

1024
00:51:55,602 --> 00:51:57,224
So thanks for everybody who's listening.

1025
00:51:57,224 --> 00:51:59,435
I hope it's been a great thank you, Nick, for having here.

1026
00:51:59,435 --> 00:52:01,868
I I like of course I love talking about this stuff.

1027
00:52:01,868 --> 00:52:02,541
Yeah, no.

1028
00:52:02,541 --> 00:52:03,213
Yeah, it's great.

1029
00:52:03,213 --> 00:52:05,511
And I'm learning from just hearing you talk about it.

1030
00:52:05,511 --> 00:52:07,957
So it's it's awesome to have this conversation.