Imagine Paul is your guide and he's taking you
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through this magnificent palace of,
you know, the emperor.
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Okay?
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And he leads you through the door
of, of a bedroom, let's say.
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And you go into this parlor
and it's, all these amazing things,
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but you don't get to stay there very long
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and he takes you out through another door,
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and then you're
in some little hidden passageway,
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and then he opens another door, and now
you're in another room and it's like,
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wow, this room is amazing to, you know,
and you start looking around.
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But then in a few minutes,
he takes you out another door
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and, and then you're in another room,
you know.
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And so what he's trying to say
is, you know, Paul
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And so what he's trying to say
is, you know, Paul
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instead of going,
you know, this, this kind of order, he's
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he gives you a little bit of a taste of
something, and then he immediately goes to
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another point, you know,
which is a brilliant point.
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And, oh, that's wonderful.
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But then he doesn't just stay there.
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He, he, he goes to another.
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He, he, he goes to another.
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So you're going through this palace
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and by the time you're done,
you've gone through the whole palace.
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But it's been in this door, out this door.
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Kind of like Alice in Wonderland.
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All right,
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well, David Bercot, it is fantastic
to have you back on the podcast.
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It's been a minute since we've done this.
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Yeah.
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So you have launched
probably the biggest project
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I think you've done,
and that's the commentary series.
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So New Testament commentary series
based on the Ante-Nicene fathers,
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the early Church fathers, and a new volume
just came out pretty recently.
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As of this recording, it's
the one on Romans.
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And I have to say,
Romans is a pretty confusing book for me.
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Hey, I really struggle with it,
and I feel there’s
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probably a lot of other people
in that same boat.
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So we want to dive into
some of the things you found
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and what are lessons for us today,
and maybe glean some pieces that
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that you've pulled.
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And obviously there's
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this massive commentary
that you've pulled from from all of this.
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And so people can go get there
if they want more information, but
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I feel like that'd be a good place
to start.
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So, without further ado,
let's just launch right into it.
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Let me go to the first question here.
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You credit
what you consider the misinterpretation
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of Romans to be the writings of Augustine
and Luther?
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And then you say this
in, I think, the introduction, Augustine
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presented his radically new interpretation
of Romans in the fifth century.
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Why do you think that was the case?
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Why did why did Augustine do that?
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And what was that interpretation?
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Okay, so
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yeah, the whys are a little bit harder.
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But how it happened I can explain, you
know, as far as whys, I mean, you know,
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I can't read somebody's heart or mind,
but how how it all happened,
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it was reacting so much of Christianity,
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the changes have come about
because of overreacting to
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an out and out heretic, or just someone,
maybe, who's gone a little bit too far
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this way, and then somebody
I'm going to say with a good motive swings
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way too far the other way, and they end up
pulling the church with them.
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And that's happened over and over
and over throughout church history.
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And it's how doctrine has
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one of the big reasons why doctrine has
changed as you go through through history.
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It's not the only reason, but
but I'd say is maybe the biggest factor.
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So in the fifth century,
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up until
the beginning of the fifth century.
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So we're talking about the year 400.
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It's fairly uniform.
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I mean, whoever you read, whether it's
people say in the year 96 A.D.
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still in the first century
or it's Chrysostom in the late,
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three hundreds,
I mean, they're all saying basically
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the same thing, that they all understand
Romans the same way.
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Now, I don't mean every single verse.
They have the same explanation.
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But but the book as a whole.
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Okay.
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So then
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you get into the,
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fifth century and Augustine
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has become this figure in the West.
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He's up on this pedestal.
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He is the theologian, which is always
dangerous when that happens in the church.
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And one man gets that much power.
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And Augustine was that man.
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He's he's brilliant.
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I mean, he is very good
with his argumentation.
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I mean, his writings are still read today
by people other than scholars.
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You know, someone like Chrysostom,
you know, no one reads him except somebody
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who's, you know,
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really into the early church or is,
you know, some scholarly thing.
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But I mean, laypeople read Augustine
and he is very clear
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with his logic and how he lays things out.
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And yeah, when you get that exalted
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where everybody looks up to you
as the guy.
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And what had happened
was the East and West,
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the Roman Empire was divided
into East and West,
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and now the barbarians
were overrunning the west.
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Okay.
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And you see a divide
between east and west, the west.
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There are few people
who speak Greek in the, in the west.
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Now, in the days of Paul,
he could write to the Romans.
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When he wrote the book of Romans,
he wrote in Greek.
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Okay, so we're saying at this point, Latin
is starting to be much more prominent.
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Greek, which is the language
of the New Testament. Right?
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Okay.
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Because we're a few hundred years
after the time of Jesus.
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You know, Augustine is writing,
you said around 400.
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Yeah. Is that right?
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Yeah. He he he wrote things before 400.
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But he changed his view on Romans
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in the fifth century.
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Yeah, his early writings.
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He's pretty much in harmony
with everyone else.
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But then in the fifth century,
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and it was because of a dispute
with a man named Pelagius.
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Okay.
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A divide is beginning to happen
between East and West
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on the understanding of the fall.
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Because the West is reading from Latin.
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By the time
you get into the three hundreds
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and certainly by the year 400, very,
very few
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laypeople in the West can read Greek,
even educated people like Augustine.
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He has some familiarity,
but he's not fluent in Greek.
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Okay, so they're reading a translation
that has an error in it
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that states that, we all sin in Adam.
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Okay? Which is not what the Greek says.
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This is Romans five were it
talks about the fall through one man sin
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entered into the world and death
through sin, because in him all sinned.
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That's how the Latin reads.
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So we all sinned somehow in Adam.
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So this view begins to develop in the West
that we are guilty for Adam's sin.
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The guilt comes down to us.
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Okay, interesting now is
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which Latin translation is being used
that had that error then?
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Well, it's called the old Latin.
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It's something that would have been
translated maybe in the first century
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and there wasn't an official
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there's different versions,
but they're all saying that, okay.
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Now Jerome
is beginning to work on the Latin Vulgate.
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It had not yet become the main
translation, and he follows that too.
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It was so ingrained in the West,
he follows that in his translation,
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even though he's translating
from the Greek, he is, you know,
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aware of how Latin speaking Christians
are understanding the scriptures.
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Okay, so so you have one view of the fall
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in the West that we inherit sin from Adam.
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We inherited his guilt getting close
maybe to total depravity,
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not quite that far yet, but getting more.
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The fall is a big thing in the West.
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In the East you have a bunch of views
and it's still that way today.
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Okay, so they recognize the fall,
but some say we inherit
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Adam's mortality,
not his sin, but his mortality.
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That would be a prominent view
among the Eastern Orthodox today.
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Others said this and that,
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Pelagius, he would be well in the East.
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He would be considered Orthodox
in his lifetime.
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But his view of the fall is more
we've been influenced
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and affected by Adam's sin
because of his example and the teaching
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that would have been handed down
from a sinful parent to his children.
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And we're raised now in a world
where sin is all around us,
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but we don't inherit necessarily
a sin nature from from.
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Adam.
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Now, that was perfectly orthodox
in the East.
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But by now,
because of the language barrier
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to Augustine, that's like, wow, what?
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What are you saying?
That's heretical. Okay.
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What are you saying?
That's heretical. Okay.
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Wow. Okay, okay, I'm starting to see it.
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This is this is very interesting.
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So Augustine comes into this situation
and then that's where we're picking up
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with what you were saying
with these interpretations
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that Augustine is presenting,
that were pretty different.
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changes everything. Okay.
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So now play Pelagius, he's
actually from Britain.
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He is a Westerner.
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He's much more educated than Augustine.
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He is fluent in Greek. He reads Greek.
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He's familiar
with this wide range of views of the fall.
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And he leans, like you say,
to the eastern view, to the far
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edge of the eastern view of,
you know, the fall is mainly
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the environment we're born into,
being kicked out of Paradise, etc.
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so he's preaching, boy,
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I mean, you have you've had a state church
now for nearly 100 years.
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The word Christian means almost nothing.
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It's I mean, everyone born into the Roman
Empire is a Christian,
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you know, pretty much
unless you're Jew, pagan,
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it's forbidden the pagan religions, etc..
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So you have a church.
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It's just made up of largely people
who are nominal Christians.
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You have some really great
sold out Christians, but you mainly have
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the nominal Christians that you still see
today in the Roman Catholic Church.
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Okay, so Pelagius, he's preaching
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against this lax discipline,
this lack of godliness,
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and really emphasizing
our need to obey the scriptures
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because we can obey them
and we are held accountable to God.
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And he criticizes.
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He's traveling
now throughout the Roman Empire,
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preaching this
no nonsense of gospel of holiness.
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And he foolishly,
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although you should be able to do this,
he criticizes Augustine because in his,
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I guess it's called his Confessions
in English.
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It's his autobiography.
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In there he makes a statement, he's
looking at becoming a monk, maybe.
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And so he.
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Augustine makes a statement, command
whatever
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00:10:26,542 --> 00:10:29,712
you will God, and do what you command.
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00:10:29,837 --> 00:10:30,463
Meaning.
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00:10:30,463 --> 00:10:33,466
In other words,
if you want me to be celibate,
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tell me to to be it,
and then give me the power to do it.
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00:10:36,469 --> 00:10:38,596
You do it, you know you do it.
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00:10:38,596 --> 00:10:41,849
And Pelagius says, well,
it doesn't work that way.
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00:10:41,891 --> 00:10:44,560
You know, God gives commands.
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He assists us,
but he doesn't just do it for us.
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And so he criticized.
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00:10:48,397 --> 00:10:51,067
Well, Augustine
I mean, he's up here on a pedestal.
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00:10:51,067 --> 00:10:53,736
I mean, you don't criticize Augustine,
you know?
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00:10:53,736 --> 00:10:59,158
So right away, he and his friend
Jerome, boy, they they jump on Pelagius.
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Well, now, Jerome at that time,
he's from the West,
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00:11:02,578 --> 00:11:04,246
but he's living in Bethlehem.
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00:11:04,246 --> 00:11:06,457
He's studying, Hebrew.
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00:11:06,457 --> 00:11:11,087
So he,
they convene a council against Pelagius.
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00:11:11,087 --> 00:11:13,047
Okay. They're in the East.
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00:11:13,047 --> 00:11:15,549
And, you know, the Eastern Christians
listen,
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00:11:15,549 --> 00:11:17,677
it's like you're not saying anything
heretical.
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00:11:17,677 --> 00:11:20,221
He's fine.
And then he convenes another council.
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00:11:20,221 --> 00:11:21,180
They listen. Yeah.
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00:11:21,180 --> 00:11:24,141
What Pelagius says is fine is
maybe not what they all think, but it's.
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00:11:24,141 --> 00:11:26,477
It's within the realm of Orthodoxy.
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Okay? Augustine is not happy with that.
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So he convenes a council in Carthage,
which is close to where he lives
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00:11:32,233 --> 00:11:34,568
way in the West.
Okay. These are Latin speakers.
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00:11:34,568 --> 00:11:35,736
Don't know anything about Greek.
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00:11:35,736 --> 00:11:36,987
They don't even realize there's
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00:11:36,987 --> 00:11:40,491
this difference of view
between the East and West on the fall.
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00:11:40,783 --> 00:11:42,576
And so these are Augustine's buddies.
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So they declare him a heretic, you know,
so he's, you know, banned, excommunicated
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and all of this in the, in the West,
which is where he is from.
238
00:11:52,461 --> 00:11:56,632
So he then appeals to the Pope,
and he goes to Rome
239
00:11:57,133 --> 00:12:00,761
and explains to the Pope his views,
what his views
240
00:12:00,761 --> 00:12:04,515
are of the fall
and our ability as fallen humans.
241
00:12:04,515 --> 00:12:06,851
And you know how that all works.
242
00:12:06,851 --> 00:12:09,854
And the Pope says, well, yeah,
there's nothing wrong with this.
243
00:12:09,854 --> 00:12:12,273
This is within the realm of Orthodoxy.
244
00:12:12,273 --> 00:12:15,818
And he tells
the ones that the bishops are in Carthage.
245
00:12:15,818 --> 00:12:16,986
You guys overreacted.
246
00:12:16,986 --> 00:12:19,321
You were too hasty in excommunicating him.
247
00:12:19,321 --> 00:12:21,449
He restores him. Okay.
248
00:12:21,449 --> 00:12:24,702
Now, if that had been just a normal
situation, it would have ended there.
249
00:12:24,910 --> 00:12:27,037
But again, he's working against Augustine.
250
00:12:27,037 --> 00:12:30,040
Augustine is the most powerful man
251
00:12:30,541 --> 00:12:33,043
in the West,
probably more than even the Emperor.
252
00:12:33,043 --> 00:12:36,088
Okay, so he and the Emperor are friends.
253
00:12:36,088 --> 00:12:40,176
So he goes over the pope’s
head to the emperor and says,
254
00:12:41,302 --> 00:12:41,969
you know,
255
00:12:41,969 --> 00:12:44,930
I don't like what the Pope did,
256
00:12:44,930 --> 00:12:47,975
Pelagius, I say he's wrong.
257
00:12:48,225 --> 00:12:49,894
I need you to back me up.
258
00:12:49,894 --> 00:12:52,480
So the emperor, you know,
it's a state church now.
259
00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,732
He puts pressure on the pope.
260
00:12:54,732 --> 00:12:56,150
Okay, great.
261
00:12:56,150 --> 00:12:58,360
Reinstate the excommunication.
262
00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,489
So Pelagius is excommunicated. And,
263
00:13:02,782 --> 00:13:05,618
maybe that would have ended. But
264
00:13:05,618 --> 00:13:06,577
Augustine feels like.
265
00:13:06,577 --> 00:13:09,789
Okay, there's all these people
who were following Pelagius.
266
00:13:10,206 --> 00:13:12,082
All right, we've got to put a stop.
267
00:13:12,082 --> 00:13:17,213
So he does all these writings against the
quote Pelagians, but he moves their view,
268
00:13:18,130 --> 00:13:20,466
he misrepresents their view, is saying
269
00:13:20,466 --> 00:13:23,803
that we humans
don't need the help of the Holy Spirit.
270
00:13:23,969 --> 00:13:26,597
Okay. So you see, we're looking at
we're starting it.
271
00:13:26,597 --> 00:13:28,307
This is so interesting
in human nature, right?
272
00:13:28,307 --> 00:13:32,311
Because you you start with something
that may have been fairly mild initially,
273
00:13:32,311 --> 00:13:35,856
but over time
it becomes a us versus them scenario.
274
00:13:35,856 --> 00:13:37,191
And you almost get more entrenched.
275
00:13:37,191 --> 00:13:41,070
And it sounds like this is where
Augustine starts taking some steps,
276
00:13:41,195 --> 00:13:42,738
putting down some lines on some things.
277
00:13:42,738 --> 00:13:44,031
and he starts moving.
278
00:13:44,031 --> 00:13:48,118
So what he used to teach, you know,
he maybe, you know, had crossed the line
279
00:13:48,118 --> 00:13:49,453
a little bit on that statement.
280
00:13:49,453 --> 00:13:53,123
You know, command what you will and,
you know, do what you command.
281
00:13:53,457 --> 00:13:55,125
Okay. That was just one statement.
282
00:13:55,125 --> 00:13:58,712
Pledges probably should have left it alone
with if Augustine had been a humble
283
00:13:58,712 --> 00:14:00,714
Christian,
you know, no big deal, you know,
284
00:14:01,715 --> 00:14:03,133
well, all the people who
285
00:14:03,133 --> 00:14:06,929
criticized me, if I responded that way,
man, I'm going to go to the Emperor.
286
00:14:06,929 --> 00:14:11,016
And you know, you're if anybody doubts,
just look at the comments
287
00:14:11,016 --> 00:14:12,893
from other episodes we've done with you.
288
00:14:12,893 --> 00:14:16,272
Yeah, yeah, I mean, so you should be able
to do that, you know, man.
289
00:14:16,397 --> 00:14:17,982
And it was a mild criticism.
290
00:14:17,982 --> 00:14:19,817
But like I say
you don't do that to Augustine.
291
00:14:19,817 --> 00:14:24,530
So he he does all these writings
pulling from Romans.
292
00:14:24,530 --> 00:14:26,031
Okay.
293
00:14:26,031 --> 00:14:28,868
Like Romans
that we'll be talking about Romans
294
00:14:28,868 --> 00:14:32,413
chapter nine and all these statements
that you can proof text
295
00:14:33,038 --> 00:14:36,041
trying to argue we and he moves.
296
00:14:36,125 --> 00:14:39,879
His position was here
and he ends up moving all the way here.
297
00:14:40,004 --> 00:14:41,005
He misrepresents
298
00:14:41,005 --> 00:14:44,717
Pelagius is saying that we don't need
God's grace in his power at all.
299
00:14:44,717 --> 00:14:47,928
We can do it all,
which is not what Pelagius was saying.
300
00:14:48,137 --> 00:14:52,308
But that's what people still think because
they know Pelagius through Augustine.
301
00:14:52,433 --> 00:14:53,559
Okay?
302
00:14:53,559 --> 00:14:55,603
Meanwhile, Augustine keeps moving.
303
00:14:55,603 --> 00:14:56,562
It's not just that.
304
00:14:57,855 --> 00:15:00,816
No. You know,
305
00:15:00,816 --> 00:15:02,985
we're not as strong as you think Pelagius.
306
00:15:02,985 --> 00:15:03,611
It's.
307
00:15:03,611 --> 00:15:07,698
He he finally moves to the point of
we can do nothing.
308
00:15:07,698 --> 00:15:11,785
We humans have no role in our salvation.
309
00:15:11,785 --> 00:15:13,120
We cannot believe.
310
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:14,538
We can't have faith.
311
00:15:14,538 --> 00:15:16,123
We cannot obey.
312
00:15:16,123 --> 00:15:18,417
We are absolutely.
313
00:15:18,417 --> 00:15:20,210
We have no role. It's all God.
314
00:15:20,210 --> 00:15:21,712
God does every bit of it.
315
00:15:21,712 --> 00:15:24,006
100% of our salvation is God.
316
00:15:24,006 --> 00:15:25,799
0% is human.
317
00:15:25,799 --> 00:15:26,800
Now that is heresy.
318
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,763
I mean, the church had never taught that,
and if it had been anyone else saying it,
319
00:15:30,763 --> 00:15:34,475
it would have been like, what on earth
are you saying this is heresy?
320
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:36,435
But it's Agustine.
321
00:15:36,435 --> 00:15:39,563
And I mean,
he was like way up on a pedestal
322
00:15:39,563 --> 00:15:43,108
because he had defended the church
against the Arians and against different,
323
00:15:43,484 --> 00:15:45,486
you know, real heretics.
324
00:15:45,486 --> 00:15:45,736
Yeah.
325
00:15:45,736 --> 00:15:48,197
But now he's
the one who becomes the heretic.
326
00:15:48,197 --> 00:15:50,699
But yeah, he's so powerful.
327
00:15:50,699 --> 00:15:52,368
I mean, he's so looked up to number one.
328
00:15:52,368 --> 00:15:55,913
Number two,
he has so many influential friends
329
00:15:55,913 --> 00:15:58,916
in high places,
including the emperor himself, you know,
330
00:15:59,124 --> 00:16:02,294
so he moves the whole Western church,
331
00:16:02,628 --> 00:16:07,841
where they end up adopting this view that,
yeah, we can do nothing on our own.
332
00:16:07,841 --> 00:16:09,426
It's 100% God.
333
00:16:09,426 --> 00:16:12,012
Not only that, it's all predestined.
334
00:16:12,012 --> 00:16:16,266
So not only do we not have any power,
but God decided before we were created
335
00:16:16,684 --> 00:16:20,187
whether you're going to be saved
and I'm not going to be saved.
336
00:16:20,854 --> 00:16:22,815
You know, we have no say on that.
337
00:16:22,815 --> 00:16:24,692
That's already been decided.
338
00:16:24,692 --> 00:16:27,695
Yes. So this is where we're starting
to see the origins of
339
00:16:28,070 --> 00:16:30,114
what would now be like Calvinism today.
340
00:16:30,114 --> 00:16:34,660
And, you know, things like that
essentially is just purely it.
341
00:16:34,660 --> 00:16:36,704
Calvin took Augustine.
342
00:16:36,704 --> 00:16:38,580
He organized it maybe a little better.
343
00:16:38,580 --> 00:16:40,624
Came up with a brilliant system.
344
00:16:41,792 --> 00:16:44,253
And but yeah, it's almost pure
Augustinian.
345
00:16:44,253 --> 00:16:44,586
okay.
346
00:16:44,586 --> 00:16:48,382
So I'm going to I'm going to look here
in your introduction and, and pull a chunk
347
00:16:48,382 --> 00:16:50,884
because this gives context
then for some of these things.
348
00:16:50,884 --> 00:16:54,054
So like for example on on the first page,
you're saying, you know how
349
00:16:54,471 --> 00:16:57,683
Augustine's presenting this
radically new interpretation of Romans
350
00:16:57,891 --> 00:16:58,851
in your early fifth century.
351
00:16:58,851 --> 00:17:02,062
So this is you're basically giving us
the backdrop of how we even got there.
352
00:17:02,354 --> 00:17:02,521
right.
353
00:17:02,521 --> 00:17:05,024
So you do have a section here
on, on page seven,
354
00:17:05,024 --> 00:17:07,568
and then you're going into
how that influences Luther,
355
00:17:07,568 --> 00:17:10,946
which is another huge chunk
right of our understanding.
356
00:17:11,238 --> 00:17:13,574
Right. Yeah. And then,
357
00:17:13,574 --> 00:17:16,577
but this is a point that I want
to pull back to.
358
00:17:17,536 --> 00:17:18,370
A little bit later on.
359
00:17:18,370 --> 00:17:21,373
You said the church has had a uniform
understanding of the key points of Romans
360
00:17:21,582 --> 00:17:22,833
up to this point.
361
00:17:22,833 --> 00:17:26,170
But then this is where we start seeing
some of these new things splintering out.
362
00:17:26,170 --> 00:17:30,883
And really,
a lot of this is just my perspective.
363
00:17:30,883 --> 00:17:31,091
Right?
364
00:17:31,091 --> 00:17:33,594
But I try to read Romans
now, and I feel like I have
365
00:17:33,594 --> 00:17:36,972
so many different things that I've heard,
I just can't even untangle it anymore.
366
00:17:37,973 --> 00:17:39,391
So maybe walk us through
367
00:17:39,391 --> 00:17:43,270
that a bit where there was you're saying
there was a uniform understanding
368
00:17:43,270 --> 00:17:46,690
or at least somewhat uniform
understanding of Romans up to this point.
369
00:17:47,274 --> 00:17:50,152
So if you were to summarize
what is Romans about?
370
00:17:50,152 --> 00:17:53,781
What did especially the Nicene
fathers, the early church fathers
371
00:17:54,198 --> 00:17:55,908
previous to Augustine?
372
00:17:55,908 --> 00:17:56,992
What what would you say?
373
00:17:56,992 --> 00:18:01,038
What would be the answer to or what
would have they said is Romans all that?
374
00:18:01,121 --> 00:18:01,455
okay.
375
00:18:01,455 --> 00:18:04,541
So yeah, one so why
376
00:18:04,541 --> 00:18:07,544
it was written, what the issue is
377
00:18:07,753 --> 00:18:12,049
that if you just read the book of acts,
it's, you know, people who weren't
378
00:18:12,049 --> 00:18:16,053
influenced by Augustine and then later
by Luther, I mean, they all read it
379
00:18:16,053 --> 00:18:20,307
and it was obvious
what the context is, that the Jews,
380
00:18:20,390 --> 00:18:23,894
the Christian Jews,
are telling the Gentiles, look,
381
00:18:24,436 --> 00:18:27,231
you have got to be circumcised and live
382
00:18:27,231 --> 00:18:30,776
by the law of Moses to be saved.
383
00:18:30,776 --> 00:18:32,194
You know, it's fine.
384
00:18:32,194 --> 00:18:35,948
Okay, we baptize you, but at some point
you've got to be circumcised.
385
00:18:35,948 --> 00:18:39,368
You've got to live by the by the law
to be a Christian.
386
00:18:39,368 --> 00:18:39,868
It's not.
387
00:18:39,868 --> 00:18:40,828
You can't just come in.
388
00:18:40,828 --> 00:18:45,124
You can maybe come in as a Gentile,
but you're going to have to become a Jew
389
00:18:45,124 --> 00:18:46,083
at some point, okay?
390
00:18:46,083 --> 00:18:48,460
There's no salvation
outside the law of Moses.
391
00:18:48,460 --> 00:18:50,671
And that's why they had the Jerusalem
Council.
392
00:18:50,671 --> 00:18:52,047
Acts 15.
393
00:18:52,047 --> 00:18:55,551
You know, the Jews are saying,
you know, we've got to circumcise them
394
00:18:55,551 --> 00:18:59,805
and make them live by the law of Moses
and all the apostles were there,
395
00:19:00,264 --> 00:19:03,809
plus Paul and Barnabas, plus James.
396
00:19:04,226 --> 00:19:06,812
And they say, no, the Jews, you know,
397
00:19:06,812 --> 00:19:11,358
the Gentiles are saved, just like we
by grace through faith in Christ.
398
00:19:11,525 --> 00:19:13,610
You know,
they don't have to live by the law.
399
00:19:13,610 --> 00:19:17,156
They even send out a a letter
to go to all the churches.
400
00:19:17,781 --> 00:19:19,616
And you'd think that would end it.
401
00:19:19,616 --> 00:19:22,995
But, I mean,
the Jews were so adamant on this.
402
00:19:23,287 --> 00:19:27,749
Now, to be fair to the Jews,
I mean, think about it for 1500 years
403
00:19:28,750 --> 00:19:30,043
God gave them the law.
404
00:19:30,043 --> 00:19:31,253
They didn't make up this law.
405
00:19:31,253 --> 00:19:33,005
God gave it to them.
406
00:19:33,005 --> 00:19:35,382
And the promises.
407
00:19:35,382 --> 00:19:40,345
You could easily read the Old Testament
and think, this is going to go on forever.
408
00:19:41,013 --> 00:19:43,348
This law, and in their minds
409
00:19:43,348 --> 00:19:47,644
even the law became so important,
the rabbi started teaching it,
410
00:19:47,686 --> 00:19:50,689
you know, it was in heaven
first it came down from heaven.
411
00:19:50,814 --> 00:19:55,611
And like, you know, the Torah existed
before man was even created.
412
00:19:55,611 --> 00:19:58,780
I mean, they really put it
on a ridiculous pedestal.
413
00:19:58,780 --> 00:20:01,283
But the point is, it was from God.
414
00:20:01,283 --> 00:20:03,660
Jews had always lived this way.
They were punished.
415
00:20:03,660 --> 00:20:07,164
They were sent into exile
because they weren't obeying the law.
416
00:20:07,372 --> 00:20:09,124
So when they got back from exile,
it was like,
417
00:20:09,124 --> 00:20:10,751
man, we're going to obey this from now on.
418
00:20:10,751 --> 00:20:12,753
And you know, no more idols, no more.
419
00:20:12,753 --> 00:20:15,422
You know, we're going to keep the Sabbath,
all of this stuff, you know?
420
00:20:15,422 --> 00:20:17,966
So, yeah, this is all from God.
421
00:20:17,966 --> 00:20:22,721
And it's suddenly like, whoa, whoa,
you're saying now we don't have to live
422
00:20:22,721 --> 00:20:26,141
this way, that you're
the one who brought the Sabbath law?
423
00:20:26,308 --> 00:20:27,267
We didn't make it up.
424
00:20:27,267 --> 00:20:28,894
You're the one who said,
425
00:20:28,894 --> 00:20:32,272
you know, you can't eat this kind of meat
and that kind of meat.
426
00:20:32,606 --> 00:20:34,650
You're the one
who gave us the law of circumcision.
427
00:20:34,650 --> 00:20:36,360
We didn't make any of this up.
428
00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:38,862
And now you're just pulling the
rug out from underneath us.
429
00:20:40,030 --> 00:20:43,200
So you can understand
why the Jews are like, this isn't fair.
430
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:44,826
That you mean these Gentiles?
431
00:20:44,826 --> 00:20:46,495
They've been worshiping idols.
432
00:20:46,495 --> 00:20:49,873
They've been living in immorality,
and all they have to do
433
00:20:49,873 --> 00:20:53,335
is just come have faith in Jesus, repent.
434
00:20:53,335 --> 00:20:56,129
They're baptized.
They're part of the church.
435
00:20:56,129 --> 00:20:58,340
They don't have to live by the law.
They can eat pork.
436
00:20:58,340 --> 00:21:00,259
No circumcision, the Sabbath.
437
00:21:00,259 --> 00:21:01,051
I mean, all of this.
438
00:21:01,051 --> 00:21:03,762
It's like, well, this isn't fair, God.
439
00:21:03,762 --> 00:21:08,267
You know, so they just
I mean, Paul, everywhere
440
00:21:08,267 --> 00:21:11,311
he goes, he's pushing against this,
the Jewish Christians
441
00:21:11,311 --> 00:21:14,731
trying to force the Gentiles
to come under the law.
442
00:21:15,107 --> 00:21:16,149
You see it in acts.
443
00:21:16,149 --> 00:21:20,696
If you when you read Galatians, which was
written before Romans, you see it there.
444
00:21:20,696 --> 00:21:23,782
It was so strong
that even Peter and Barnabas, it was like,
445
00:21:24,449 --> 00:21:26,868
whoa, we better just back off.
446
00:21:26,868 --> 00:21:29,162
These Jews are so adamant on this.
447
00:21:29,162 --> 00:21:33,917
It's just better not to make an issue here
at this point in time, you know?
448
00:21:33,917 --> 00:21:37,254
And then Paul got real upset with him
for for doing that.
449
00:21:37,546 --> 00:21:42,384
But yeah, Peter's like I'm
with the Jewish church in Jerusalem.
450
00:21:42,676 --> 00:21:45,345
I've got to worry about their reaction.
451
00:21:45,345 --> 00:21:48,432
And is it worth is this the, the the time
452
00:21:48,432 --> 00:21:51,977
and place to say, okay, no,
this is how it is.
453
00:21:51,977 --> 00:21:57,399
Well, that led to then, okay,
we need to have a, a, a conference
454
00:21:57,399 --> 00:22:02,112
of all the, apostles, everybody,
we need to make a definitive ruling.
455
00:22:02,279 --> 00:22:05,449
But like you say, even though they did
that, the Jews wouldn't accept it.
456
00:22:05,449 --> 00:22:06,742
They keep pushing.
457
00:22:06,742 --> 00:22:11,288
So Paul in Galatians,
he addressed it nicely.
458
00:22:11,496 --> 00:22:15,334
But, in Romans he decides, okay,
I'm going to take everything I said
459
00:22:15,334 --> 00:22:20,589
in Galatians, and I'm going to expand it
and really go into even more detail.
460
00:22:20,756 --> 00:22:24,468
So Romans is, I don't know, maybe twice
as long as Galatians.
461
00:22:24,468 --> 00:22:26,178
I'm just guessing, I don't know,
462
00:22:27,220 --> 00:22:29,097
but yeah, he really goes into detail,
463
00:22:29,097 --> 00:22:33,769
but that is what he is trying to once
and for all,
464
00:22:34,394 --> 00:22:38,523
you know, destroy this idea
that Gentiles have to live by the law,
465
00:22:38,565 --> 00:22:41,568
or that even Jewish
Christians have to live by the law.
466
00:22:41,860 --> 00:22:45,364
So there's six key points,
and I don't know him by memory,
467
00:22:45,364 --> 00:22:51,745
so I'm going to just read them from here
that if you I call it his great argument.
468
00:22:51,745 --> 00:22:56,041
So it's like in English it's:words long.
469
00:22:56,041 --> 00:22:59,836
I mean, it's the longest sustained
theological argument in the whole Bible.
470
00:23:00,128 --> 00:23:04,466
See that that I did this
just shows the ignorance right on my part,
471
00:23:04,716 --> 00:23:07,719
because I never even realized that,
like I'm reading through
472
00:23:07,969 --> 00:23:10,013
through your introduction here
and you're just saying, you know, that.
473
00:23:10,013 --> 00:23:12,516
Yeah,
this this chunk text is like the longest
474
00:23:12,516 --> 00:23:15,644
theological argument in the Bible
or in the New Testament.
475
00:23:16,103 --> 00:23:19,773
I just never thought of that as as a chunk
to, to, to untangle,
476
00:23:19,773 --> 00:23:20,607
if that makes sense.
477
00:23:20,607 --> 00:23:23,193
And it's not presented as a chunk
and that was,
478
00:23:23,193 --> 00:23:26,321
Well, I'll go into the history of this
commentary in a little bit, but okay,
479
00:23:26,863 --> 00:23:31,576
so his six points,
you know, his thesis is neither Jews
480
00:23:31,576 --> 00:23:35,580
nor Gentiles any longer
have to live under the law of Moses.
481
00:23:35,580 --> 00:23:38,792
You know, we're saved by faith, by grace,
482
00:23:38,792 --> 00:23:41,795
you know, through faith in Jesus Christ,
through his blood.
483
00:23:42,212 --> 00:23:44,589
It is no longer from the law of Moses.
484
00:23:44,589 --> 00:23:47,509
So here's his six points that he develops.
485
00:23:47,509 --> 00:23:52,180
All mankind lies guilty
before God and needs salvation.
486
00:23:52,556 --> 00:23:54,057
And by the way, I don't think
487
00:23:54,057 --> 00:23:57,477
there's only one of these six points
that that is even controversial
488
00:23:57,477 --> 00:24:00,772
today among Protestants,
I mean, or even Catholics.
489
00:24:00,772 --> 00:24:01,940
Okay.
490
00:24:01,940 --> 00:24:04,901
Number two, the Law of Moses is unable
491
00:24:04,901 --> 00:24:09,156
to save or justified Jews,
let alone Gentiles.
492
00:24:09,573 --> 00:24:15,454
Neither circumcision nor obedience to
the law of Moses are necessary any longer.
493
00:24:15,704 --> 00:24:16,621
Okay.
494
00:24:16,621 --> 00:24:20,125
Number three
all humans, Jews and Gentiles alike
495
00:24:20,333 --> 00:24:26,173
are saved and justified only by God's
grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
496
00:24:26,173 --> 00:24:29,342
Okay, the law plays no part in salvation.
497
00:24:29,676 --> 00:24:33,180
Number four,
there is no partiality with God.
498
00:24:33,180 --> 00:24:36,933
Jews and Gentiles
stand as equals before him.
499
00:24:37,309 --> 00:24:41,480
See the Jews were having trouble, we’ll
accept the Gentiles, but not as equals.
500
00:24:41,938 --> 00:24:47,611
And Paul is really hammering no, a Gentile
who is uncircumcised, who does not keep
501
00:24:47,819 --> 00:24:51,781
the regulations of the law,
but keeps the moral teaching of the law.
502
00:24:52,282 --> 00:24:55,911
He is a real Jew, the Jew who is outwardly
503
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,873
a Jew and has,
you know, the tassels and is circumcised
504
00:24:59,998 --> 00:25:04,503
and does all these regulations,
but doesn't have faith in Christ,
505
00:25:05,003 --> 00:25:06,796
which means he is
not really keeping the law,
506
00:25:06,796 --> 00:25:09,508
because here's the Messiah,
and you've rejected him. He's not a Jew.
507
00:25:09,508 --> 00:25:11,218
Paul is saying he is not a Jew.
508
00:25:11,218 --> 00:25:13,470
Okay, so this is really radical.
509
00:25:13,470 --> 00:25:16,097
Believing Jews and believing Gentiles
510
00:25:16,097 --> 00:25:19,100
together make up the new Israel of God.
511
00:25:19,434 --> 00:25:22,479
So God is now looking
not at fleshly Israel,
512
00:25:22,854 --> 00:25:25,732
but at an Israel that is made up
513
00:25:25,732 --> 00:25:30,028
of Jews and Gentiles
who are grafted in to the Jews,
514
00:25:30,570 --> 00:25:33,532
which he's always allowed
Gentiles to join the Jews.
515
00:25:33,532 --> 00:25:38,537
But now the Jews who reject
Christ are being lopped off.
516
00:25:38,537 --> 00:25:41,748
He goes into that in chapter ten and 11.
517
00:25:41,748 --> 00:25:42,999
Okay.
518
00:25:42,999 --> 00:25:46,795
Now, this is something
that I had never caught in Romans.
519
00:25:47,003 --> 00:25:49,089
That is all throughout it.
520
00:25:49,089 --> 00:25:52,592
God has not been unfair to the Jews
521
00:25:52,801 --> 00:25:55,804
in bestowing
grace and salvation on the Gentiles.
522
00:25:56,638 --> 00:26:00,976
So you would ask, you know,
you mentioned how complicated Romans is.
523
00:26:00,976 --> 00:26:01,643
Okay.
524
00:26:01,643 --> 00:26:06,106
One of the things that complicates is
Paul starts developing these points
525
00:26:06,356 --> 00:26:10,402
and he's realizing his Jewish brother,
man, they're getting really, really mad.
526
00:26:10,652 --> 00:26:13,071
So he has to keep coming back over
and over again.
527
00:26:13,071 --> 00:26:16,366
Number one, saying, hey, I'm a Jew myself
528
00:26:16,825 --> 00:26:20,161
and I love I love the Jews so much
I would die for them.
529
00:26:20,161 --> 00:26:25,000
I would be, you know, let Christ,
you know, be cut off from Christ
530
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,876
if it would save the Jews, that’s
how much.
531
00:26:26,876 --> 00:26:31,673
I so don't think I'm anti-Jewish
and God hasn't been unfair.
532
00:26:31,673 --> 00:26:34,342
You're saying God is unfair
to let these Gentiles come in?
533
00:26:34,342 --> 00:26:35,677
He is not unfair.
534
00:26:35,677 --> 00:26:38,555
And he develops that argument.
His last one.
535
00:26:38,555 --> 00:26:43,018
This is the one where Protestants,
many Protestants today, would reject.
536
00:26:43,643 --> 00:26:48,440
But it's just as much a point
as these other five, whether we are Jews
537
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:53,570
or Gentiles, after our initial salvation
by grace through faith,
538
00:26:54,237 --> 00:26:57,782
God requires us to walk faithfully
with Christ,
539
00:26:58,283 --> 00:27:02,579
producing godly fruit
for the remainder of our lives.
540
00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:06,333
However, we do not do this
solely on our own strength,
541
00:27:06,750 --> 00:27:09,252
for we have the empowerment
of the Holy Spirit.
542
00:27:10,587 --> 00:27:13,590
So there's one phase of salvation.
543
00:27:14,090 --> 00:27:16,885
You know, when you come
in, you don't have to have any works.
544
00:27:16,885 --> 00:27:19,971
I mean, these Gentiles,
I mean, think of the day of Pentecost.
545
00:27:20,180 --> 00:27:22,057
Well, those were Jews, okay?
546
00:27:22,057 --> 00:27:24,142
Think of the Philippian jailer. Okay?
547
00:27:24,142 --> 00:27:28,938
I mean, this guy and he's just a pagan,
you know, and a jailer at that,
548
00:27:28,938 --> 00:27:32,776
I mean, he probably beat several people up
that day, was probably cursing.
549
00:27:32,776 --> 00:27:35,779
He may have worshiped some false
god that morning.
550
00:27:35,987 --> 00:27:38,782
And then at midnight,
you know, this earthquake happens
551
00:27:38,782 --> 00:27:41,660
and, you know,
he's quaking before Paul himself.
552
00:27:41,660 --> 00:27:44,079
And what must I do in order to be saved?
553
00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:45,705
Paul witnesses to him.
554
00:27:45,705 --> 00:27:47,874
He believes he's baptized that night.
555
00:27:47,874 --> 00:27:48,625
No works.
556
00:27:48,625 --> 00:27:52,128
I mean, this guy is just filth
right out of the Gentile world.
557
00:27:52,420 --> 00:27:53,004
And boom!
558
00:27:53,004 --> 00:27:55,757
Because he believes and repents.
559
00:27:55,757 --> 00:27:57,050
He's baptized.
560
00:27:57,050 --> 00:28:00,053
He is now accepted
and he's justified by by faith.
561
00:28:00,136 --> 00:28:03,682
But now he has to live by Christ
teachings.
562
00:28:03,682 --> 00:28:06,226
He can't go back to living the way he was.
563
00:28:06,226 --> 00:28:09,938
So he saved by faith and grace.
564
00:28:10,021 --> 00:28:13,817
But yeah,
now he's a branch on the vine of Christ.
565
00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:18,196
He has to produce godly fruit,
and yet God will give him the power.
566
00:28:18,196 --> 00:28:20,198
He's not on his own to do this.
567
00:28:20,198 --> 00:28:23,326
But yeah, he doesn't go back to the sow
568
00:28:23,326 --> 00:28:27,497
returning to the mud, or the dog
to its vomit, you know, whatever.
569
00:28:27,497 --> 00:28:30,083
So that's a big part of Paul's argument.
570
00:28:30,083 --> 00:28:33,086
That is just as much a part of Romans
as these other teachings.
571
00:28:34,254 --> 00:28:34,546
Yeah.
572
00:28:34,546 --> 00:28:36,631
That's
interesting. I hadn't thought of that.
573
00:28:36,631 --> 00:28:38,883
That last point,
574
00:28:38,883 --> 00:28:40,218
before like so.
575
00:28:40,218 --> 00:28:41,803
So I think what what we're seeing here,
576
00:28:41,803 --> 00:28:44,931
there's a lot of context
that Paul is writing out of that
577
00:28:44,931 --> 00:28:47,684
that's pretty easy to miss
if we're not paying attention.
578
00:28:47,684 --> 00:28:50,061
Is that is that
because that's one of the questions
579
00:28:50,061 --> 00:28:53,732
I had is like, why does Romans feel
so complicated to us today?
580
00:28:53,732 --> 00:28:57,569
Is that because we've heard
so many different ideas tossed around
581
00:28:57,569 --> 00:28:59,112
and so many different
theological frameworks,
582
00:28:59,112 --> 00:29:02,449
or is it the way Paul is writing this,
or is it the context of the times?
583
00:29:02,449 --> 00:29:04,784
Like what?
What's leading to all the confusion?
584
00:29:04,784 --> 00:29:05,660
So it is both.
585
00:29:05,660 --> 00:29:08,788
So we've heard these other interpretations
that we've heard him
586
00:29:08,788 --> 00:29:11,791
so many times when you start reading
Romans, man, you hear Luther.
587
00:29:11,791 --> 00:29:17,422
Whether you've ever read one of his
writings or his teachings is everywhere.
588
00:29:17,422 --> 00:29:20,675
And it's infiltrated the Anabaptists,
you know, big time.
589
00:29:20,675 --> 00:29:26,264
So it is really hard to to get the, you
know, free of, of your mind is part of it.
590
00:29:26,639 --> 00:29:29,267
Now, I said, there's the six points.
591
00:29:29,267 --> 00:29:32,687
It'd be so nice
if Paul wrote like a Augustine.
592
00:29:32,687 --> 00:29:34,355
See, Augustine is a Westerner.
593
00:29:34,355 --> 00:29:35,482
He writes in Latin.
594
00:29:35,482 --> 00:29:38,568
He thinks like a Westerner, and that's
why he's so popular in the West.
595
00:29:38,568 --> 00:29:40,153
He's easy to follow.
596
00:29:40,153 --> 00:29:42,197
Paul is an Easterner.
597
00:29:42,197 --> 00:29:43,698
He writes in Greek.
598
00:29:43,698 --> 00:29:46,034
He does not think like a Westerner.
599
00:29:46,034 --> 00:29:49,287
So the Greek writers,
you know, in reading the early church,
600
00:29:49,287 --> 00:29:53,208
I always loved the Western writers
like Tertullian, Lactantius and them.
601
00:29:53,458 --> 00:29:55,001
Yeah, I can follow them.
602
00:29:55,001 --> 00:29:58,004
You get into Origen,
Clement of Alexandria,
603
00:29:58,046 --> 00:30:03,176
I love them as people, you know, but,
well, the way they attack a problem,
604
00:30:03,593 --> 00:30:06,179
the Greek way was just different
than the Western way.
605
00:30:06,179 --> 00:30:08,723
There's, there's just you know,
there's a difference there.
606
00:30:08,723 --> 00:30:12,227
So Paul doesn't do one, two, three, four,
five, six.
607
00:30:12,644 --> 00:30:16,272
He does 1352, one four.
608
00:30:16,731 --> 00:30:18,525
I mean he just keeps going.
609
00:30:18,525 --> 00:30:21,486
He gets he starts with one,
he ends with six.
610
00:30:21,486 --> 00:30:24,239
But yeah I mean he's jumping all around.
611
00:30:24,239 --> 00:30:27,909
So it's 16I mean like I say
it's it's all these different ones.
612
00:30:28,493 --> 00:30:30,119
And he keeps repeating them.
613
00:30:30,119 --> 00:30:35,375
So it's maybe 55344I mean
it sounds like a musical thing, you know.
614
00:30:36,334 --> 00:30:38,461
So that's where it is so confusing.
615
00:30:38,461 --> 00:30:43,967
And we're I got so mentally fatigued,
you know, I started this thing.
616
00:30:44,175 --> 00:30:46,427
Well, now it's been like,
617
00:30:46,427 --> 00:30:47,762
almost three years ago. Okay.
618
00:30:47,762 --> 00:30:50,974
So I worked on it nearly a full year,
619
00:30:51,182 --> 00:30:55,144
and I just reached a point where mentally,
I just couldn't take it anymore.
620
00:30:55,144 --> 00:30:58,147
It's like, I, I can understand
621
00:30:58,147 --> 00:31:01,276
the early Christians,
but I've got to put this back into Paul
622
00:31:01,943 --> 00:31:05,905
and they're able to work through this
because they're Easterners
623
00:31:05,905 --> 00:31:09,242
and they're writing in Greek
and that sort of thing.
624
00:31:09,242 --> 00:31:13,329
But I felt like I maybe understood it,
but how how can I present this
625
00:31:13,329 --> 00:31:13,955
to other people?
626
00:31:13,955 --> 00:31:16,708
Because,
I mean, it's it's got me so mixed up.
627
00:31:16,708 --> 00:31:19,836
So I just I had to take a break
because I was about to go insane.
628
00:31:19,836 --> 00:31:22,130
I thought I was going to pick it
back up in six weeks,
629
00:31:22,130 --> 00:31:25,341
and then it was so nice
to not have to wrestle with Romans.
630
00:31:26,384 --> 00:31:27,302
It went on
631
00:31:27,302 --> 00:31:31,139
for actually a year and a half,
and I just, stayed away from it.
632
00:31:31,139 --> 00:31:33,641
And then it was,
633
00:31:33,641 --> 00:31:36,853
a year ago at Kingdom Fellowship
Weekend that at our book
634
00:31:36,895 --> 00:31:38,479
table people, people kept saying,
635
00:31:38,479 --> 00:31:40,481
whens the Romans commentary
going to come out, David,
636
00:31:40,481 --> 00:31:42,233
whens the Romans commentary and
637
00:31:42,233 --> 00:31:45,737
and oh, well, I'm not sure, you know,
because I knew in my mind I had decided
638
00:31:45,737 --> 00:31:48,865
I'm just not going to finish it,
you know, and, you know, put so much work.
639
00:31:48,865 --> 00:31:51,868
And so then, you know, I talked with
Deborah, my wife, you know, and it's like,
640
00:31:52,368 --> 00:31:56,539
wow, maybe I should finish that thing,
you know, how how long could it be?
641
00:31:56,581 --> 00:31:59,584
You know, how long would it take,
you know, to finish.
642
00:31:59,959 --> 00:32:02,962
So having left it alone,
when I got back in it,
643
00:32:03,171 --> 00:32:05,924
it was a little bit more clear.
644
00:32:05,924 --> 00:32:07,675
It was just good to to step away.
645
00:32:07,675 --> 00:32:10,595
And then you come back to a problem,
you know, after you've just left it,
646
00:32:10,595 --> 00:32:13,389
left it alone a while
and it's as it becomes more clear.
647
00:32:13,389 --> 00:32:17,018
And so I reread what I had written
and it's like, okay, this is the
648
00:32:17,018 --> 00:32:21,189
I had written like already eight versions
of this commentary by then.
649
00:32:22,065 --> 00:32:26,736
You know, it's now this what you're
reading now is version something like 17.
650
00:32:26,736 --> 00:32:27,362
Okay.
651
00:32:27,362 --> 00:32:30,239
But I had already done
like eight versions of it.
652
00:32:30,239 --> 00:32:30,865
Okay.
653
00:32:30,865 --> 00:32:33,868
When I say eight versions, I don't mean
that each one is a totally new one.
654
00:32:34,035 --> 00:32:34,827
Eight revisions.
655
00:32:34,827 --> 00:32:37,413
So, you You know, wow,
that is a lot to untangle here.
656
00:32:37,413 --> 00:32:38,331
Okay. Yeah.
657
00:32:38,331 --> 00:32:41,459
So so then I, I read it
658
00:32:42,627 --> 00:32:43,920
and I okay, I kind of
659
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,840
see this, but now this will not make sense
to anyone else.
660
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,259
I mean, if it's been this hard for me,
661
00:32:50,259 --> 00:32:52,887
then anyone else reading
this is going to be okay.
662
00:32:52,887 --> 00:32:54,514
We still don't get it. Okay.
663
00:32:54,514 --> 00:32:57,809
So I, I went through,
I don't know how many times I read Romans
664
00:32:57,809 --> 00:33:00,812
during this process and after each,
665
00:33:00,979 --> 00:33:04,732
let's say, section heading whatever,
which are of course, man made.
666
00:33:04,732 --> 00:33:06,818
He didn't write in chapters
and all of that.
667
00:33:06,818 --> 00:33:08,027
Okay.
668
00:33:08,027 --> 00:33:11,197
And sometimes the chapters help
and sometimes they confuse us because this
669
00:33:11,197 --> 00:33:15,451
is man putting these chapter divisions
and he's not writing in any division.
670
00:33:15,451 --> 00:33:18,913
It's one long argument, you know, and
you got to think of it as one argument.
671
00:33:18,913 --> 00:33:22,834
And you start in your mind, dividing it up
is, oh, now we're in chapter nine.
672
00:33:22,834 --> 00:33:24,210
Like we're in a new thing.
673
00:33:24,210 --> 00:33:25,920
No, Paul didn't make that chapter.
674
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:27,630
That's something, you know, a human did.
675
00:33:27,630 --> 00:33:29,298
Okay. Robert Stephanos okay.
676
00:33:29,298 --> 00:33:31,551
So, we are
677
00:33:33,261 --> 00:33:33,553
what I'm
678
00:33:33,553 --> 00:33:36,681
doing is reading through
and after each section,
679
00:33:36,681 --> 00:33:40,518
the way it's divided into sections
in the new King James.
680
00:33:40,935 --> 00:33:42,979
But I'm not paying complete attention.
681
00:33:42,979 --> 00:33:45,940
I'm following Paul's argument. Okay?
682
00:33:45,940 --> 00:33:47,692
As as informed by the early Christians.
683
00:33:47,692 --> 00:33:48,943
I've read them a bunch of times.
684
00:33:48,943 --> 00:33:51,320
Okay, I see they're understanding Paul.
685
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,240
Okay. So okay,
this is what they're saying.
686
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,118
And then I'm reading
and then I write down, okay,
687
00:33:57,118 --> 00:34:00,163
verses chapter two, verses
one through ten.
688
00:34:00,621 --> 00:34:03,875
He's talking about,
you know, we all need salvation.
689
00:34:03,875 --> 00:34:05,084
Okay.
690
00:34:05,084 --> 00:34:07,003
Chapter two verses.
691
00:34:07,003 --> 00:34:09,881
Whatever he's saying,
Jews and Gentiles are equal.
692
00:34:09,881 --> 00:34:11,257
So I'm making this long list.
693
00:34:11,257 --> 00:34:13,092
I don't know, it's going to be six points.
694
00:34:13,092 --> 00:34:15,136
I'm just making a list.
695
00:34:15,136 --> 00:34:15,887
What's he saying?
696
00:34:15,887 --> 00:34:19,474
So when I get done and I don't know how
long I spent on that a couple of weeks.
697
00:34:20,475 --> 00:34:22,101
Then I look at my list
698
00:34:22,101 --> 00:34:27,273
and I start realizing,
okay, this one basically is the same here.
699
00:34:27,273 --> 00:34:31,152
It's just a nuance of this
and I'm finally able to reduce it.
700
00:34:31,152 --> 00:34:34,155
Okay, he really covers six main points.
701
00:34:34,572 --> 00:34:35,907
Each one is a little nuance.
702
00:34:35,907 --> 00:34:37,575
He says it a little different.
703
00:34:37,575 --> 00:34:40,578
And like I say,
they're not in any kind of perfect order.
704
00:34:40,870 --> 00:34:43,289
But the yeah, I'm finally grasping.
705
00:34:43,289 --> 00:34:48,377
Okay, I see Paul really,
he knows where he's going with this.
706
00:34:48,377 --> 00:34:52,173
He's arguing the Greek way,
which is the Greek way, is
707
00:34:52,715 --> 00:34:56,511
if we're talking about,
like we're talking about Romans.
708
00:34:56,761 --> 00:34:57,720
Okay.
709
00:34:57,720 --> 00:35:01,265
And I say something about,
710
00:35:02,141 --> 00:35:05,561
you know, okay, Paul wrote this, you know,
Paul was from Tarsus, by the way.
711
00:35:05,561 --> 00:35:08,106
You know, about Tarsus. It's it's
this city, blah, blah, blah.
712
00:35:08,106 --> 00:35:10,650
And then I go into this
big thing about Tarsus.
713
00:35:10,650 --> 00:35:12,026
That's how Greeks did something.
714
00:35:12,026 --> 00:35:16,114
If if something is related in some way
to what they're talking about,
715
00:35:16,781 --> 00:35:20,243
they feel like,
oh, I better explain that a little bit.
716
00:35:20,409 --> 00:35:24,747
So it's almost think of it almost like
weaving all these things in together.
717
00:35:24,747 --> 00:35:25,206
Yeah.
718
00:35:25,206 --> 00:35:26,165
Whereas maybe
719
00:35:26,165 --> 00:35:29,252
a more Western Latin style would be like,
hey, here's a checklist Yes.
720
00:35:29,544 --> 00:35:30,962
And you go down logically.
721
00:35:30,962 --> 00:35:34,298
The Greek is if there's a nexus
you follow that nexus.
722
00:35:34,298 --> 00:35:36,425
So the way Origin describes it.
723
00:35:36,425 --> 00:35:39,345
And he's not saying this in criticism.
He loves Romans.
724
00:35:39,345 --> 00:35:42,473
I mean to him, man,
this is marvelous book because of course
725
00:35:43,141 --> 00:35:46,811
Origin thinks, you know, in this
he loves complicated arguments.
726
00:35:47,228 --> 00:35:49,021
So here's the way he describes it.
727
00:35:49,021 --> 00:35:53,025
He says, Imagine
Paul is your guide and he's taking you
728
00:35:53,025 --> 00:35:56,529
through this magnificent palace of,
you know, the emperor.
729
00:35:56,529 --> 00:35:57,363
Okay?
730
00:35:57,363 --> 00:36:01,534
And he leads you through the door
of, of a bedroom, let's say.
731
00:36:01,534 --> 00:36:05,037
And you go into this parlor
and it's, all these amazing things,
732
00:36:05,163 --> 00:36:07,039
but you don't get to stay there very long
733
00:36:07,039 --> 00:36:09,125
and he takes you out through another door,
734
00:36:09,125 --> 00:36:11,502
and then you're
in some little hidden passageway,
735
00:36:11,502 --> 00:36:14,672
and then he opens another door, and now
you're in another room and it's like,
736
00:36:14,922 --> 00:36:18,509
wow, this room is amazing to, you know,
and you start looking around.
737
00:36:18,718 --> 00:36:21,679
But then in a few minutes,
he takes you out another door
738
00:36:21,679 --> 00:36:24,515
and, and then you're in another room,
you know.
739
00:36:24,515 --> 00:36:27,810
And so what he's trying to say
is, you know, Paul
740
00:36:27,935 --> 00:36:31,189
instead of going,
you know, this, this kind of order, he's
741
00:36:31,939 --> 00:36:35,401
he gives you a little bit of a taste of
something, and then he immediately goes to
742
00:36:36,068 --> 00:36:38,821
another point, you know,
which is a brilliant point.
743
00:36:38,821 --> 00:36:40,323
And, oh, that's wonderful.
744
00:36:40,323 --> 00:36:42,200
But then he doesn't just stay there.
745
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:43,784
He, he, he goes to another.
746
00:36:43,784 --> 00:36:45,661
So you're going through this palace
747
00:36:45,661 --> 00:36:48,497
and by the time you're done,
you've gone through the whole palace.
748
00:36:48,497 --> 00:36:50,708
But it's been in this door, out this door.
749
00:36:50,708 --> 00:36:52,418
Kind of like Alice in Wonderland.
750
00:36:52,460 --> 00:36:53,461
Oh, wow. Okay.
751
00:36:53,461 --> 00:36:56,589
And and then it leaves people like myself
feeling a little confused
752
00:36:56,589 --> 00:36:59,425
because it's like, I'm not even sure
what to do with all of this. Yeah.
753
00:36:59,425 --> 00:37:00,384
And this is Augustine’s problem.
754
00:37:00,384 --> 00:37:03,221
He's a Westerner. He doesn't understand
the Greek way of thinking.
755
00:37:03,221 --> 00:37:04,931
He can't read Greek.
756
00:37:04,931 --> 00:37:07,850
He's trying to make sense as a Westerner.
757
00:37:07,850 --> 00:37:10,770
And so, yeah, we can't do that.
758
00:37:10,770 --> 00:37:13,773
I mean, we can't get away from the fact
we think as Westerners.
759
00:37:14,190 --> 00:37:18,236
But yeah, we have to realize
Paul isn't writing as a Westerner,
760
00:37:18,236 --> 00:37:20,363
and he's he thinks the way a Greek,
761
00:37:21,405 --> 00:37:24,200
thinker, approaches things.
762
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,494
And we've got to give credit to that.
763
00:37:26,494 --> 00:37:28,663
We have to get back into that world.
764
00:37:28,663 --> 00:37:31,582
We can't try to bring him
into the 21st century.
765
00:37:31,582 --> 00:37:35,836
We have to get back into Paul's world
and not some imaginary world.
766
00:37:36,212 --> 00:37:40,007
Look at how the Christians who lived
right after Paul.
767
00:37:40,591 --> 00:37:42,718
How did they understand this book?
768
00:37:42,718 --> 00:37:46,472
I mean, the most amazing thing we have
is in the year
769
00:37:46,931 --> 00:37:49,558
it's either 96 or 97.
770
00:37:49,558 --> 00:37:53,604
We have the letter,
it's usually called First Clement
771
00:37:53,813 --> 00:37:57,900
because apparently the one who penned
it was Clement.
772
00:37:57,900 --> 00:37:59,944
He was an elder in the Church of Rome.
773
00:37:59,944 --> 00:38:02,863
But the letter is
from all the elders in Rome.
774
00:38:02,863 --> 00:38:04,865
Now you remember this is Romans.
775
00:38:04,865 --> 00:38:08,369
The letter from Paul
was to the church in Rome
776
00:38:09,620 --> 00:38:11,664
before the first century is over.
777
00:38:11,664 --> 00:38:14,625
We have a letter from those elders
in Rome.
778
00:38:15,293 --> 00:38:17,295
They're writing to the church in Corinth.
779
00:38:17,295 --> 00:38:17,712
Okay.
780
00:38:17,712 --> 00:38:20,339
Unfortunately,
they're not discussing Romans.
781
00:38:20,339 --> 00:38:22,675
It would solve everything.
782
00:38:22,675 --> 00:38:23,634
They're dealing with.
783
00:38:23,634 --> 00:38:25,344
They're having dissension in Corinth.
784
00:38:25,344 --> 00:38:29,098
And so that's why they're writing
the Corinthians, to encourage them to.
785
00:38:29,098 --> 00:38:32,143
Hey, look, we got to get our act together.
786
00:38:32,351 --> 00:38:36,981
It's better to give way, gelassenheit
would be the Anabaptist
787
00:38:36,981 --> 00:38:40,818
word, you know, instead of insisting
on having your own way and all that.
788
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,781
But in there, they touch on subjects
that are covered in Romans.
789
00:38:45,781 --> 00:38:49,035
So you can see how the elders
were understanding some of these
790
00:38:49,035 --> 00:38:50,619
basic concepts.
791
00:38:50,619 --> 00:38:55,041
And they are not understanding it
the way Luther or Augustine, either one,
792
00:38:55,041 --> 00:38:59,462
the things they say, you know, you can see
that they're being informed by Romans
793
00:38:59,462 --> 00:39:02,340
because they state some of the same
things. You know, we're saved by,
794
00:39:03,299 --> 00:39:05,426
grace,
you know, through faith in Jesus Christ.
795
00:39:05,426 --> 00:39:08,429
But then the next paragraph, you know,
796
00:39:09,180 --> 00:39:12,058
we have to walk worthily
if we're going to be saved in the end.
797
00:39:12,058 --> 00:39:13,267
That's in Romans two.
798
00:39:13,267 --> 00:39:15,227
And, you know, in chapter two of Romans
799
00:39:15,227 --> 00:39:18,230
and you can see, okay,
this is how they're understanding it.
800
00:39:18,272 --> 00:39:19,982
And then you just go from there.
801
00:39:19,982 --> 00:39:23,069
I mean, you've got other writings,
you know, Justin Martyr
802
00:39:23,110 --> 00:39:26,739
and other ones, Ignatius,
all the way up and like, say,
803
00:39:26,739 --> 00:39:30,743
all the way till you get to
the fifth century, even Augustine,
804
00:39:30,826 --> 00:39:34,038
they're all saying
basically the same thing.
805
00:39:34,330 --> 00:39:38,125
And then because of this overreaction,
everything changes.
806
00:39:38,459 --> 00:39:41,087
And because you have a state church,
if you didn't have a state church.
807
00:39:41,087 --> 00:39:43,923
You would have been like, okay, well,
we don't agree with you, Augustine.
808
00:39:43,923 --> 00:39:46,884
You know, you can do what you want,
but we don't agree with you.
809
00:39:46,884 --> 00:39:49,637
But when you got to say church
with an army, yeah,
810
00:39:49,637 --> 00:39:52,264
they can not only excommunicate you,
they banished you.
811
00:39:52,264 --> 00:39:55,226
I mean, Pelagius
didn't just get communicated.
812
00:39:55,393 --> 00:39:55,768
Yeah.
813
00:39:55,768 --> 00:39:59,355
The soldiers took him and he got banished
to the edge of the empire, you know?
814
00:39:59,605 --> 00:40:00,773
And you better be.
815
00:40:00,773 --> 00:40:03,818
Stay here and be quiet,
or that's the end, you know?
816
00:40:04,068 --> 00:40:04,652
So, yeah.
817
00:40:04,652 --> 00:40:07,655
Augustine
wins through the force of, of arms.
818
00:40:07,780 --> 00:40:08,406
So it's.
819
00:40:08,406 --> 00:40:12,660
But it's so amazing we can go
back, actually, to the first century
820
00:40:12,660 --> 00:40:18,416
and get their thought processes
from the elders in Rome itself. Wow.
821
00:40:18,541 --> 00:40:19,834
Yeah that's really interesting.
822
00:40:19,834 --> 00:40:25,131
Like I, so as you were working on
this commentary, this is not
823
00:40:26,757 --> 00:40:29,802
you wouldn't
really say this is a commentary you wrote.
824
00:40:29,802 --> 00:40:32,805
It's more going through
what the early church was saying
825
00:40:32,805 --> 00:40:35,975
and pulling those pieces
into a single place, essentially.
826
00:40:35,975 --> 00:40:39,687
Like you're not engaging with a lot of
the more recent scholarship, Not at all.
827
00:40:40,146 --> 00:40:44,733
No, no, I didn't in fact,
I didn't even read those guys.
828
00:40:44,733 --> 00:40:46,944
I did not want to be influenced by them.
829
00:40:46,944 --> 00:40:50,614
I, I wanted to just
what did they say back then?
830
00:40:51,073 --> 00:40:57,496
And so I just looked at, like you say,
the early Christian writings, of course.
831
00:40:57,496 --> 00:41:00,207
Then I looked at Augustine, okay,
832
00:41:00,207 --> 00:41:04,503
I had done this before because, you know,
it's like, why did things change?
833
00:41:04,628 --> 00:41:06,964
And I'd read Augustine, you know,
834
00:41:06,964 --> 00:41:09,925
these writings against the Pelagians
you know, 40 years ago
835
00:41:10,968 --> 00:41:12,970
and of course, had read Luther as well.
836
00:41:12,970 --> 00:41:16,390
So I was I was aware of, of those changes,
but I thought,
837
00:41:17,224 --> 00:41:20,686
I knew there were modern, scholars who,
838
00:41:21,854 --> 00:41:23,022
is called like,
839
00:41:23,022 --> 00:41:27,860
what is it, the new Paul, the new,
there's a number of different ones, Yeah,
840
00:41:27,860 --> 00:41:31,614
yeah, of how they put it, the,
new understanding of Paul.
841
00:41:32,031 --> 00:41:35,576
And so when I was through,
when I finish this,
842
00:41:35,993 --> 00:41:39,246
I thought, I want to read these guys
to see what they're saying.
843
00:41:39,246 --> 00:41:39,914
And in case.
844
00:41:39,914 --> 00:41:41,332
Yeah, I need to relook at some,
but I don't
845
00:41:41,332 --> 00:41:45,419
really want to be influenced by them
because, yeah, this is what they believed
846
00:41:45,419 --> 00:41:50,257
back then, you know, now I put it in easy
for a Westerner to understand.
847
00:41:50,257 --> 00:41:53,511
You know, I don't just have
a bunch of early Christian quotes.
848
00:41:53,511 --> 00:41:57,264
I do try to, you know,
put their arguments in a way that,
849
00:41:57,681 --> 00:42:00,267
you know, you and I can understand
it, you know, because I saw
850
00:42:00,267 --> 00:42:03,270
how hard it was even for me, like, say,
wrestling with this.
851
00:42:03,479 --> 00:42:04,897
But it is interesting. Yeah.
852
00:42:04,897 --> 00:42:09,735
The new perspective on Paul,
is a whole lot closer to the early church.
853
00:42:09,735 --> 00:42:12,780
It's not exactly the same,
but it's a whole lot closer.
854
00:42:12,780 --> 00:42:13,739
It's a welcome.
855
00:42:15,032 --> 00:42:17,493
Wow. I'm glad some people are.
856
00:42:17,493 --> 00:42:17,826
Yeah.
857
00:42:17,826 --> 00:42:22,790
Finally standing up to Luther and saying,
hey, you know, maybe Luther,
858
00:42:23,165 --> 00:42:27,419
overreacted, misread Paul misrepresented
what Paul is saying.
859
00:42:27,419 --> 00:42:28,504
So that's.
860
00:42:28,504 --> 00:42:30,673
Yeah, that's very encouraging to me that.
861
00:42:30,673 --> 00:42:33,008
Yeah, some people are doing that now.
862
00:42:33,008 --> 00:42:36,512
The new perspective doesn't
rely as much on the early Christians.
863
00:42:36,512 --> 00:42:37,054
Unfortunately.
864
00:42:37,054 --> 00:42:41,850
What they did was let's see what the Jews
were saying in the first century.
865
00:42:42,434 --> 00:42:42,768
Yeah.
866
00:42:42,768 --> 00:42:46,814
And and we're reading Paul
as a response to the Jews.
867
00:42:47,106 --> 00:42:52,528
And, Luther was misrepresenting the Jews
in their mind anyway.
868
00:42:52,778 --> 00:42:58,325
And so he's, he's he's misreading Paul
because he's misrepresenting the Jews.
869
00:42:58,325 --> 00:42:58,867
Okay.
870
00:42:58,867 --> 00:43:01,870
So they're saying this is what the Jews
really believed in the first century.
871
00:43:02,037 --> 00:43:06,000
And Paul is countering
that which in the end,
872
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,003
it gets back to very similar
to what the early Christians were saying.
873
00:43:09,211 --> 00:43:10,379
But I'm very disappointed.
874
00:43:10,379 --> 00:43:13,257
It's like, why do you go to the Jews
and not go to the early Christians?
875
00:43:13,257 --> 00:43:17,136
I mean, to me, that's the elephant in
the room is like, wow, you've got, the
876
00:43:17,136 --> 00:43:21,807
elders in Rome in the first century who,
you know, touch on many of these topics.
877
00:43:21,807 --> 00:43:22,683
You don't go to them.
878
00:43:22,683 --> 00:43:25,436
You go to see what the Jews were,
were believing.
879
00:43:25,436 --> 00:43:29,815
But nevertheless, it's
still it brings scholarship
880
00:43:29,815 --> 00:43:33,193
a lot closer to what
the early Christians were, were saying.
881
00:43:33,569 --> 00:43:35,821
And yeah, once you see it,
882
00:43:36,780 --> 00:43:38,949
like you say, just finding the light bulb,
I mean,
883
00:43:38,949 --> 00:43:42,077
but it did take like to say it was
it was a lot of work.
884
00:43:43,287 --> 00:43:45,706
But what then when the light bulb came
on, it's like, hey,
885
00:43:45,706 --> 00:43:48,709
this book isn't so terribly difficult.
886
00:43:48,834 --> 00:43:50,544
And that's why I hope
887
00:43:50,544 --> 00:43:54,214
I know it will take a lot of reading
because, you know, now it's clear to me.
888
00:43:54,214 --> 00:43:57,635
But, I mean, it was a,
you know, like, say a year.
889
00:43:57,635 --> 00:44:01,138
And then it took another
six months of intense work
890
00:44:01,138 --> 00:44:05,726
and I would start right after breakfast
and I would work till ten at night,
891
00:44:05,726 --> 00:44:08,854
six days a week,
you know, breaking for supper,
892
00:44:08,854 --> 00:44:12,941
you know, and a little devotional time
relaxation at 10:00 at night, you know.
893
00:44:13,484 --> 00:44:17,071
But yeah, it was really intense
to, to get through this. So,
894
00:44:19,198 --> 00:44:20,532
it is
895
00:44:20,532 --> 00:44:24,161
without a doubt the hardest book
of the New Testament to understand outside
896
00:44:24,161 --> 00:44:28,165
of the apocalyptic part of revelation in
which everyone is going to have their own.
897
00:44:28,374 --> 00:44:30,334
But it's it is the hardest book.
898
00:44:30,334 --> 00:44:32,711
And yeah, I'll let you talk.
899
00:44:32,711 --> 00:44:34,380
I'm going, I'm going.
900
00:44:34,380 --> 00:44:36,924
Not giving you a chance to say anything
That's great.
901
00:44:36,924 --> 00:44:39,843
So I think what you're,
902
00:44:39,843 --> 00:44:42,596
maybe advocating for or whatever
you want to call it
903
00:44:42,596 --> 00:44:47,434
is that historic snapshot of what was
what was the church saying at the time.
904
00:44:47,685 --> 00:44:48,894
Let's let's look at them.
905
00:44:48,894 --> 00:44:51,230
Let's pull a slice of, of that.
906
00:44:51,230 --> 00:44:53,774
And, and how does that help us
understand what Paul.
907
00:44:53,774 --> 00:44:57,903
And so if you're talking, Clement
of Alexandria or, you know, first Clement
908
00:44:57,903 --> 00:45:02,866
being written in 96 or 97 and, you know,
Romans was written, what year was that?
909
00:45:02,950 --> 00:45:05,369
About 50, 55.
910
00:45:05,369 --> 00:45:06,912
Some might put it later.
911
00:45:06,912 --> 00:45:10,874
60. Probably not as late, but but yeah,
within 30 to 40 years of Romans itself
912
00:45:10,874 --> 00:45:11,333
being written.
913
00:45:11,333 --> 00:45:14,002
So you're saying,
you know, like that proximity to Paul.
914
00:45:14,002 --> 00:45:16,797
There's a lot of value there.
We should be paying attention to it.
915
00:45:16,797 --> 00:45:20,092
And that's why you just put a lot of work
into compiling that.
916
00:45:20,551 --> 00:45:21,510
And that's pretty neat.
917
00:45:21,510 --> 00:45:23,429
You know, I think
I think you're on to something there.
918
00:45:23,429 --> 00:45:25,973
Yeah, Yeah. It's terrible
that it's been ignored.
919
00:45:25,973 --> 00:45:29,101
I mean, that people and they praise
Augustine, Oh, yeah, Augustine.
920
00:45:29,101 --> 00:45:32,104
And yeah, finally someone with insight
and it's like,
921
00:45:32,396 --> 00:45:35,441
what's you think all of these,
these people who were personally
922
00:45:35,441 --> 00:45:39,611
taught by the apostles,
who were part of that generation, that,
923
00:45:39,903 --> 00:45:43,741
oh, they don't understand that, but,
a Westerner who doesn't even read
924
00:45:44,032 --> 00:45:48,203
Greek, who's, you know, counteracting,
who changes
925
00:45:48,203 --> 00:45:51,915
his own view to counteract somebody
because he's in this personal feud.
926
00:45:52,291 --> 00:45:55,502
That's absurd, you know,
and you come up with this doctrine
927
00:45:55,794 --> 00:45:59,381
that it's all predestined,
that we do nothing in our salvation.
928
00:45:59,381 --> 00:46:02,843
So why does Jesus even bother
to preach the sermon on the Mount?
929
00:46:02,968 --> 00:46:06,472
We can't live that, you know,
if we do it because God does it.
930
00:46:06,722 --> 00:46:10,434
And it's like the
I mean, it's a terrible overreaction,
931
00:46:10,684 --> 00:46:14,354
but and people think today
people associate Augustine, you know,
932
00:46:14,646 --> 00:46:18,484
with Calvin and with Protestantism,
they don't get it in their hands.
933
00:46:18,484 --> 00:46:20,819
This was Roman Catholic theology.
934
00:46:20,819 --> 00:46:24,948
This was the Roman Catholic Church
who promoted Augustine,
935
00:46:24,948 --> 00:46:28,368
who made him
the father of the Roman Catholic Church.
936
00:46:28,368 --> 00:46:32,956
It was Roman Catholic councils
that, you know, condemned
937
00:46:32,956 --> 00:46:36,919
Pelagius and made Augustine's view,
you know, become the official view
938
00:46:36,919 --> 00:46:39,838
of the Roman Catholic Church.
That's the irony.
939
00:46:39,838 --> 00:46:43,717
This is Roman Catholic doctrine
that, you know, then worked its way
940
00:46:43,717 --> 00:46:47,888
into the Reformation
and and all of that which would have been
941
00:46:47,888 --> 00:46:49,306
through Luther, Calvin.
942
00:46:49,306 --> 00:46:50,724
And so I've.
943
00:46:50,724 --> 00:46:52,559
Yeah,
I guess I never thought of that before.
944
00:46:52,559 --> 00:46:52,976
Yeah.
945
00:46:52,976 --> 00:46:55,979
well, Luther was an Augustinian monk, so.
946
00:46:56,146 --> 00:46:59,775
Yeah,
his whole basis was built on Augustine.
947
00:46:59,775 --> 00:47:01,360
He goes just a little further.
948
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,363
Now, Augustine's big
point is we don't do anything,
949
00:47:04,488 --> 00:47:08,575
and God's going to be mad at us
if we said that we obeyed.
950
00:47:08,575 --> 00:47:11,453
And it's like, you know,
he doesn't want you to take credit.
951
00:47:11,453 --> 00:47:13,580
He wants all the credit
because you didn't do anything.
952
00:47:13,580 --> 00:47:15,749
You know, to Augustine,
that's the big thing.
953
00:47:15,749 --> 00:47:18,710
You take credit for nothing. To Luther.
954
00:47:18,877 --> 00:47:19,920
Yeah, that's true.
955
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,006
But more importantly,
that it's faith alone.
956
00:47:23,340 --> 00:47:28,554
And if you think works play any role
in this, then that's works righteousness.
957
00:47:28,554 --> 00:47:32,015
And wow, you're outside of Christianity
now, see, Augustine
958
00:47:32,015 --> 00:47:35,394
had no issue with works,
His point was God does the works.
959
00:47:35,602 --> 00:47:37,980
Yeah. You just need to recognize you
didn't do those.
960
00:47:37,980 --> 00:47:40,983
You might think you did,
but it was really God working through you.
961
00:47:41,066 --> 00:47:44,027
But yeah, I mean,
he didn't have any negativity on works.
962
00:47:44,027 --> 00:47:47,614
It was Luther who made works a negative,
you know, term.
963
00:47:47,614 --> 00:47:50,158
And that has influenced so many people.
964
00:47:51,326 --> 00:47:54,329
So, yeah, it,
965
00:47:54,621 --> 00:47:56,790
to me it was just exciting
when the light bulb, you know,
966
00:47:56,790 --> 00:47:57,749
finally came on, it's like,
967
00:47:57,749 --> 00:48:01,420
okay, I've got to be able to put this
where other people.
968
00:48:01,670 --> 00:48:06,425
Yeah, can can get the same benefit
that that I did without having to spend,
969
00:48:06,425 --> 00:48:08,510
you know, a year and a half, two years,
970
00:48:08,510 --> 00:48:12,306
you know, working through all of these,
these writings and that sort of thing.
971
00:48:12,306 --> 00:48:15,893
So yeah, hopefully
that's what I've been able to, to do to.
972
00:48:15,934 --> 00:48:18,520
Yeah, some degree anyway.
973
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,566
So, so as we tie all the pieces together
974
00:48:22,816 --> 00:48:25,569
Romans is an intimidating book right.
975
00:48:25,569 --> 00:48:28,196
We've been saying how it's, it's
complicated.
976
00:48:28,196 --> 00:48:30,240
It's hard to get our minds around.
977
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:33,452
What would you say as an encouragement
to leave with our listeners to
978
00:48:33,994 --> 00:48:36,830
dig into that book,
to dig back into into God's
979
00:48:36,830 --> 00:48:39,917
word, into the book of Romans and,
and read it for themselves.
980
00:48:39,917 --> 00:48:41,668
What would you say
to encourage them? Okay.
981
00:48:41,668 --> 00:48:45,297
so I just a way
that'll make it easier to understand it
982
00:48:45,505 --> 00:48:48,550
correctly
if I had to give someone a recommendation,
983
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:50,969
it would be start
with the sermon on the Mount.
984
00:48:50,969 --> 00:48:52,721
Read the sermon on the Mount.
985
00:48:52,721 --> 00:48:54,556
I mean, just clear your mind
of everything else
986
00:48:54,556 --> 00:48:56,808
you've heard about salvation
and everything else.
987
00:48:56,808 --> 00:48:59,645
Just read the sermon on the Mount.
What did Jesus say? Okay,
988
00:49:00,687 --> 00:49:02,189
read the book of acts.
989
00:49:02,189 --> 00:49:05,150
What was happening in acts
when Paul preached?
990
00:49:05,150 --> 00:49:07,736
We have some of his sermons to people.
991
00:49:07,736 --> 00:49:09,696
I mean, where he's presenting the gospel.
992
00:49:09,696 --> 00:49:13,533
How did Paul present the gospel to people
when he was preaching?
993
00:49:13,659 --> 00:49:16,453
What were the things he was working
against in the book of acts?
994
00:49:16,453 --> 00:49:18,789
Okay, then.
995
00:49:18,789 --> 00:49:19,039
Okay.
996
00:49:19,039 --> 00:49:23,168
You ready to to go into Paul, read,
I would probably say read
997
00:49:23,168 --> 00:49:26,380
James first because James is very clear.
998
00:49:26,380 --> 00:49:28,507
He he's still a Greek writer,
999
00:49:28,507 --> 00:49:32,678
but he reasons more like a Westerner
and he's very easy to understand.
Speaker:
00:49:33,011 --> 00:49:36,723
Read James to make sure you're getting,
you know, the whole perspective.
Speaker:
00:49:37,391 --> 00:49:43,188
But then read Galatians
as a shortened version of Romans.
Speaker:
00:49:43,188 --> 00:49:45,482
Now don't read Galatians
through Luther's eyes.
Speaker:
00:49:45,482 --> 00:49:46,274
Just read the book.
Speaker:
00:49:46,274 --> 00:49:48,568
It's what, five chapters or whatever
it is.
Speaker:
00:49:48,568 --> 00:49:50,320
He makes the same points.
Speaker:
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,406
But Galatians to me is a pretty easy book.
Speaker:
00:49:52,406 --> 00:49:54,783
I mean, the context is really clear.
Speaker:
00:49:54,783 --> 00:49:57,869
He's talking about the mosaic law
that the Jews were trying
Speaker:
00:49:57,869 --> 00:50:00,247
to force the Gentiles,
you know, to live by the law.
Speaker:
00:50:00,247 --> 00:50:02,165
They wouldn't eat with them, etc.
Speaker:
00:50:02,165 --> 00:50:06,128
he shows that there's a, these things
in the Old Testament
Speaker:
00:50:06,128 --> 00:50:10,173
prefigured the, the church and,
and the unbelieving Jews.
Speaker:
00:50:10,382 --> 00:50:13,385
And then he goes into
how we must live as Christians.
Speaker:
00:50:13,844 --> 00:50:15,721
It's the same thing he does in Romans.
Speaker:
00:50:15,721 --> 00:50:17,764
But Romans is is a lot more complicated.
Speaker:
00:50:17,764 --> 00:50:21,935
So if you've got Galatians down, then,
then yeah, go through Romans,
Speaker:
00:50:22,477 --> 00:50:26,773
use the commentary as, as an aid,
you know, let the people who spoke
Speaker:
00:50:27,399 --> 00:50:30,485
the same Greek
as Paul, who lived in that culture,
Speaker:
00:50:30,485 --> 00:50:34,740
who thought like him, yeah,
take advantage of their of their insights.
Speaker:
00:50:34,740 --> 00:50:36,116
They're not inspired.
Speaker:
00:50:36,116 --> 00:50:39,578
But yeah,
they at least like, say, thought like him.
Speaker:
00:50:39,578 --> 00:50:40,746
And it's amazing
Speaker:
00:50:40,746 --> 00:50:43,915
because these are just a scattered
group of people, some speaking Latin,
Speaker:
00:50:43,915 --> 00:50:47,377
some speaking Greek, some living in Egypt,
some living in Europe,
Speaker:
00:50:47,836 --> 00:50:49,880
and they're all saying the same thing,
you know?
Speaker:
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,090
So that's what's really reassuring.
Speaker:
00:50:52,090 --> 00:50:54,426
And it was a United church.
Speaker:
00:50:54,426 --> 00:50:57,179
I mean, before it was a state church,
you had one church.
Speaker:
00:50:57,179 --> 00:51:00,557
So they were all able to agree,
which today nobody can.
Speaker:
00:51:00,891 --> 00:51:04,561
But you had a period there
of nearly 300 years without a state church
Speaker:
00:51:04,895 --> 00:51:08,231
when you had one church
that all Christians just about
Speaker:
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:12,694
were able to agree on what the scriptures
mean, which to me shows
Speaker:
00:51:12,694 --> 00:51:13,779
they had the Holy Spirit.
Speaker:
00:51:13,779 --> 00:51:16,865
You don't have that kind of unity
without the Holy Spirit, you know,
Speaker:
00:51:16,865 --> 00:51:19,493
unless you have the sword,
which is a totally different thing.
Speaker:
00:51:20,660 --> 00:51:21,036
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:51:21,036 --> 00:51:23,163
So thanks for thanks for sharing
all of this.
Speaker:
00:51:23,163 --> 00:51:27,042
I'm really hoping this episode
will encourage people to give Romans
Speaker:
00:51:27,084 --> 00:51:28,001
another read.
Speaker:
00:51:28,001 --> 00:51:30,504
And I think what you were outlining there
of other context
Speaker:
00:51:30,504 --> 00:51:32,255
to read, like reading Galatians,
first things like that.
Speaker:
00:51:32,255 --> 00:51:34,216
I think that's that's really helpful
Speaker:
00:51:34,216 --> 00:51:36,760
because it's a big chunk
to take all at once.
Speaker:
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:38,595
it is it help me.
Speaker:
00:51:38,595 --> 00:51:41,389
I don't know how many times I read
Galatians when I was working on Romans,
Speaker:
00:51:41,389 --> 00:51:45,268
because there's so many parallels
and I realize, man, Galatians, I can,
Speaker:
00:51:45,352 --> 00:51:48,605
I can, I can grasp it,
you know, and he's saying the same things.
Speaker:
00:51:48,605 --> 00:51:52,567
But yeah, he's just saying it in a much
more detailed, complicated way in Romans.
Speaker:
00:51:52,567 --> 00:51:53,527
Yeah. Hmhmm.
Speaker:
00:51:53,527 --> 00:51:56,321
Wow. Well, thank you so much
for coming on the podcast, David.
Speaker:
00:51:56,321 --> 00:52:00,742
This is this is there's a lot
we there's a lot, a lot to unpack here.
Speaker:
00:52:01,326 --> 00:52:03,829
So yeah, I really hope this inspires
people to to dig
Speaker:
00:52:03,829 --> 00:52:06,832
back into God's word and,
and give it another shot. So.
Speaker:
00:52:07,207 --> 00:52:08,250
All right. Thank you for sharing.
Speaker:
00:52:09,376 --> 00:52:12,212
Thanks for listening to this episode
with David Bercot.
Speaker:
00:52:12,212 --> 00:52:15,423
We've had him on the podcast
several other times, and you might find
Speaker:
00:52:15,423 --> 00:52:18,552
the episode we did with him
about how he was an Anglican priest.
Speaker:
00:52:18,552 --> 00:52:19,177
Interesting.
Speaker:
00:52:19,177 --> 00:52:22,180
And you can find that
linked in the description below.
Speaker:
00:52:22,806 --> 00:52:25,517
If you like this podcast,
leave us a rating and review.
Speaker:
00:52:25,517 --> 00:52:28,311
It really does help
more people find this content.
Speaker:
00:52:28,311 --> 00:52:29,771
And of course you can find everything
Speaker:
00:52:29,771 --> 00:52:34,025
we've made over on our website
at anabaptistperspectives.org.
Speaker:
00:52:34,317 --> 00:52:36,820
Thanks again
and we'll see you in the next episode.