Hello there and

welcome to the Podcast Accelerator, this show that brings you some straight

talking actionable advice along with opinions that may not always be popular,

but that you probably need to hear and what a treat I've got for you today.

When I got into podcasting about a decade ago now, through my

love of DC comics, there were a few people that I got to know.

There were a few people that helped me along the way.

There were a few people that have been there.

Ever since.

And this person is each and every one of those, along with also being

an absolutely fantastic friend and an even better guitar player.

So I'm gonna go deep into the past of podcasting and we're gonna take a crystal

ball and we're gonna look ahead to the future of podcasting with my friend Mr.

Dave Jackson.

How are

you, mark?

I'm doing great.

Uh, happy to be here buddy.

Always a pleasure, mate.

Always a pleasure.

And we saw each other in London not so long ago for the podcast show.

How was the, the, the trip over to Old Blighty?

Was it all

right?

It was okay.

I kept, uh, I think on the way over was where I had a gorilla of a man.

He had to be some sort of professional, uh, you know, sports person.

And so I was on the aisle and I just had to the whole, the whole trip.

I'm leaning outside of my chair just to give this guy some room.

So, but, uh, all in all, it wasn't bad.

It's not like you came from Ireland either.

You didn't have a 40 minute flight mate, so I can sympathize with that one.

I've, I've been there flown coach and flown the red eye all over the

world in the name of podcasting.

And for anyone that doesn't know Dave, he's, he's a fantastic friend to not just

me, but to, to everyone in podcasting.

But, you know, he's forgotten things that I will probably never know.

And he's just, he's, he's, he's just one of those people that

you'll look forward to seeing.

So I'm not gonna do the thing at the end.

Which is, tell us where people can find you and all that stuff.

Let's do that now mate.

'cause I want as many people to, to just get to where you are as possible.

So what are you up to right now?

Anyone that knows, you, knows, but for those that might be new to

you, what are you up to now mate?

And where can we get ahold of some of that stuff?

Everything podcasting related.

Most of it is at, uh, school of podcasting.com.

That's kind of the, the flagship show.

I guess we could say.

What I do, podcasting is a sickness for me.

If you stand next to me for 20 minutes, I'll probably start another one.

And so I, I came up with a domain power of podcasting.com, which is kind of a

link tree kind of site that just has a link of all the different things I'm into.

I love it, mate.

I completely sympathize with that.

Every time, every time I get into something it's like I'm

gonna do a podcast about that.

And it might be, I've just found some new bread is, you

know, this isn't Bread's nice.

I'm gonna do a podcast about this bread.

This is cool.

And I know you're the same mate.

I know you are exactly the same.

That's it.

What, what is it, what is it about podcasting?

Like, you've been in this since 2005.

What do you think it's about podcasting that makes us like that because I feel.

Like certainly for me, I've been like that since I discovered podcasting.

And I, and I'm assuming you have too.

Like what is it about the medium that makes us like that?

I think the biggest thing for, I mean, you're a musician.

I'm a musician.

I remember growing up and thinking I'd be at a, a record store and I'm

like, man, is there any way we could ever get my band's music in here?

And there are all sorts of gatekeepers.

And with podcasting there isn't one.

I mean, the, the good news is anybody can start a podcast.

The bad news is anybody can start a podcast.

And so for me it's always interesting as I help people, 'cause first.

I gotta talk 'em into turning the microphone on.

They're, they're worried about the audience.

And I always say, eh, nobody's listening yet.

Don't, don't worry about it.

It's not a big deal.

You're not gonna look stupid.

It's not radio.

And then when they first launched and they get their, you know, 10 people, if you

count, your cousins are listening, and then all of a sudden it starts to grow.

And it's interesting 'cause first they were worried.

About starting and looking stupid, and then all of a sudden they're

like, oh wait, PE-people are, people are listening to this.

And I go, yeah, I, I kind of told you, you can grow an audience.

So I think part of it is not so much an egomaniac kind of way, but we all want

to get our voice out there and it's, you know, a pretty easy way to get there.

And for me, what, what really?

When I grabbed my flag and, and I planted it and said, oh, I, I, I claim podcasting.

This is, this is my new jam was I'm in the middle of nowhere Ohio, out

with some cows and a guy found my podcast from Nuremberg, Germany.

His name was Michael Van Lar, and he sent me a voicemail

and I was like, wait a minute.

There's, there's a guy on the other side of the planet that not only

found my show, 'cause this is in 2005.

And not only found my show, but he liked it and he sent me a voicemail

and I went, oh, oh wait, hold on.

I get this now.

This is global.

And that's, I think another, uh, big selling point.

The fact that you can reach everybody.

I love the accessibility idea of that.

The fact that you can talk about the thing that you love from the place that you

are and someone who is in the place, that they are in the place that they love, just

happens to love the same thing that you do and you make a connection around that.

And I've always been fascinated by.

By that as well.

And there's a real dopamine hit when you get that first listener

reaching out to you as well.

You know, when someone says that, I have heard what you have said.

And you know, even, even if you know, potentially contentiously, even if they

don't like it, someone's heard that.

And that's a real dopamine hit man.

So I, I completely get that.

And it's, it's fascinating to watch people flourish and their

attitudes change in their.

Almost their eyes light up when you catch up with them three

months in or six months in.

So I get that, man, you must, you've helped thousands of

podcasters, haven't you?

Is that, is that a fairly common thing?

Is that, does that dopamine hit get everyone?

Yeah, and one of my favorite things to see, and I got

to see it kind of in the wild.

I was coaching somebody the other day on Zoom, and I'm helping them submit their

show to all the different directories.

And we submitted it to Spotify first, and then we went through the whole list and.

We're, we're getting everything done.

And I said, Hey, you know, it's, it's been probably a half hour.

I said, go back to Spotify and do a search for your show.

And he does.

And it was there and he clicked on it.

I go, look at you podcaster.

And just to watch his face like, holy cow, that's my stuff right there.

And it was so cool because I've taken people that have approached

me and said, I hate technology.

I'm never gonna be able to do that.

And then, you know, a month and a half later, they're in Apple and

all the other different places, and it is, it's a dopamine hit.

I'm, I remember, you know, I wrote a book and, and the first time

I saw it in Amazon, I was like, wait, that's, that's my stuff.

So it's, it's cool.

And I know I just had a guy come in from out of town, he's a listener and he said,

Hey, I would love to take you to lunch.

So I went to lunch with him and I've kind of known him.

He was a member of the school of podcasting.

And all he wanted to do, the biggest reason why he wanted to take me to lunch

is just, I, I call these because of my podcast stories where things that have

happened because he had a podcast and so he's a, a pastor and he's now kind of a, a

church consultant that led to him meeting the head of an agency and just, just

keep climbing up the, the giant pyramid.

And he ended up talking to like one of the top, top people of this big organization.

He goes, I never would've done any of that except I had a podcast.

And he goes, like it or not, he goes, your thumbprint's in there somewhere.

And it's, you don't realize that so many times you're just talking

into a microphone and you think nobody's listening, and then

somebody blows through town and says, oh wow, you changed my life.

And you're like, wait, what?

I mean I started in the basement of my brother's house.

I just got divorced.

My brother said, ah, come live with me for a while.

So I'm down by the water heater.

Hope in the furnace doesn't turn on.

You know, I never had any idea, this is where I was gonna end up.

That's the beauty of it, my friend and I, it, it's, I think everyone has

a story like that to different degrees and it's what's so beautiful about it.

I remember going to one of my first events, so I, I was,

I started podcast in 2013.

That was my first foray into it, and then got a bit more serious in

2014, um, and went to my first event at n MX in Vegas, which is where I

met you for the first time, I think.

And it was, That was a wild event.

'cause it was, it was at the Westgate, it was co-located with, what was it?

I can't remember.

The NAB show maybe.

And, uh, it was just this weirdly wild little event that that then disappeared.

But what really struck me about it was that I.

Every, everyone felt the same about podcasting and, and we all, like I used

to come from sort of a digital agency background and came from, like you said,

being in bands and being a musician and then come from, um, being like a

contract trainer and freelancing in every world that I was in prior to podcasting,

everyone was out to get you or the best, they were ambivalent that you existed

because, It, it, it didn't matter to them.

And what struck me so much about it was everyone was just so supportive.

Everyone wanted to see everyone else succeed.

I know we're gonna talk about the past and we're gonna talk about

the future and so on, but I.

That, that's what got me really hard to lean into it.

And, and, and I know that's sort of, I know that's what you support

people through, and I know you, you, you've experienced the same thing.

Does it feel the same today, especially after Covid and we've all

been locked, locked in a little bit.

Like what, what is that side of things like at the minute?

Yeah, it's, it's a little different, but it, I always say at the heart of

every good podcast is a servant, somebody who wants to serve their audience.

And so, Uh, with that, I think we all kind of wanna get the message

out, whatever it is, if we're talking about DC comics or, or whatever, we

wanna talk about those things we love.

And so that is just something, and, and again, the dopamine kick, we know what

it feels like when you have somebody that says, man, I love this show.

I, I swear you made this just for me.

And so we know what that feels like.

So when somebody comes along and goes, I'm, I'm trying to figure out should

I call it this or what microphone we're, oh, hold, let me help you

because we want you to feel like we do.

So there's that.

The biggest difference I remember in the very first podcast conference

was in California and myself and Paul Culligan looked at each other and

said, you know, if we actually got enough people listening to this thing,

We might be able to make some money.

And people looked at us like we were the devil.

They're like, it's my art man.

Why would I want to, you know?

And I was like, easy, easy.

So there is a definite monetization thing that's going on much now that that's

going on that's a little different.

And the, the big networks, 'cause in the early days we were all independents.

Now you walk in and there's the wondery and the, all the different

big networks and, and I don't really know that many people.

That are in the big networks.

I remember once I went to, uh, a thing in Brooklyn, New York, I

forget the name of the event, but it was very much all big networks.

And I remember I walked up to a guy and I said, oh, what do you doing podcasting?

And he goes, oh, I'm, I'm part of the storyboard.

I.

I like put the, and I was like, wait, what?

And I was like, I, you know, I write my notes down on a post-it note and put

it on my monitor and hit record, and they're writing out these, so it was

one of those where you listen to a show and there's like 18 people at the end.

That was kind of that thing.

So that's, that's something that has come along and we'll see if that continues.

You know, we keep hearing about people losing their jobs and podcasting,

and maybe it's the guy that you know, Did the storyboard and maybe, maybe

they figured out that maybe we don't need a guy doing the storyboard.

I don't, I don't know.

So it's, it's the same in many ways.

As it grows.

You know, the great thing about it, there are no rules.

So you can do whatever you want.

One of the things I love about your show, mark, is the fact that a, it's

your opinion and you know, the, shall we say, the mainstream, you know, if,

if everybody in podcasting is saying, oh, everybody go left, go left, go left.

I can turn on Mark Show.

And he'd be like, ah, it's crap.

Listen to you.

Go to the right.

And you know, and I love the fact that you get a different opinion and you

go, I've never thought about that.

So that's, I, I think when we started podcasting was like

a big, giant middle finger.

The, the radio in the US is horrendous.

It's the same 17 songs.

I love ac, C D, C, I never want to hear a single song Off

A Back and Black ever again.

It's just been played to death, followed by 30% commercials,

30%, and it's just ridiculous.

So we were all, Hey, you know what?

We're not all gonna talk about this.

And weather on the tens, not all nine yards.

All right, everybody.

'cause nobody talks like that.

I think that was one of the big things that, that really kicked off podcasting.

It's like, wow, these, these people sound real and they're not, you know,

it's not binky in the Wiz or whoever.

It's, it's real.

Yeah, I understand that.

I appreciate the kind words as well.

And it's, it's, uh, it's, it is always been interesting for me because I've

found podcasting as a way of, um, what's the best way to articulate it?

Like, fitting in.

I, I, I've never fit in, like I've been, you know, I've been in bands, I've played

around, I've, I've always created things.

Um, But you know, I'm a really big A D h D brain.

I'm a really big sort of, I'm a strategic thinker and I've never, I've never

fit in because of those two things.

I, I tend to see things ever so slightly differently.

And podcasting.

When I started creating content, it was, it was sort of weird 'cause

it was never in the, never, the intent was never to be contrarian.

It was more just, just the way I sometimes see things.

And I think one of the big things for me that podcasting

has allowed is almost for me to.

Give myself some sort of self therapy.

Like genuinely if I'm struggling with something, especially at work or if I'm

struggling with something in the industry or if I'm struggling with something.

Um, for example, you know, we got acquired, we became part of global

18 months ago, nearly were two years ago now, which, which has been great.

It's a fantastic move.

And the the team are wonderful.

And, and you, we, we had a tour around Global's offices.

You've seen what it's like, um, But for a year, it took me a little bit of figuring

out, like, why couldn't I create content?

And it was, 'cause I was a little bit burnt out for the

last 10 years of doing it.

And I was a little bit, I didn't really know what I wanted to say anymore.

I, I, and it took me a year to sort of figure that out.

But when I started this show back up, it was genuinely like therapy again.

It was, it was, it was the release of, right.

Okay.

Actually, here's a way for me to say the things that I need to say without.

Anyone really caring, and I know it sounds bizarre and a bit flippant to say

that, but honestly, like you either like the shows or you don't like the shows.

If I start a show about the new bread that I found at the store and I love it,

it doesn't matter whether someone likes it or not, I'm sort of doing it for me

and that's why we run Star Wars shows and we are on golf shows and you run

shows about the things that you'll have.

Do you think there's.

Because of the way that podcasting seems to have, have split, you know, we've got

podcasting, the media, so the networks, we've got the big brands, we've got

everything from programmatic advertising right through to people building

networks for, for mass IP players.

You know, and then you've got us, you've got the people that do

it because, because we love it.

What, what do you say to those people who, who, who approach things like

we do, we do it and we want to do it because we love it, but we're

now worried that podcasting is.

Quote, unquote, too big.

There are too many podcasts.

You know, if we believe the media, if we believe the hype, that podcasting's too

big, someone knocks on your door, Dave, I wanna do this thing, but I'm worried.

Is there any room for me?

Like, what's your answer

to that?

Well, think about this.

If, uh, there's a junior high kid and he's a pretty good quarterback, He thinks I'll

never be Tom Brady, so I'm just gonna quit or think about all the authors every year.

I mean, every year in the book industry, there are 27 different books about how

to lose weight that probably are saying the exact same thing that somebody else

has said many, many, many, many times.

And if you look at, uh, the news, if you turn on the news at night, wherever

you are, you probably got at least four or five stations that are talking

about everything that happened today.

Well, why do we have five?

Why do we have five stations talking about what happened today?

Because some people like this person.

The, what I did watch, I don't watch hardly any news anymore,

but when I did, I watched this one channel, and I'll be completely

just, you know, a, a, a pig here.

Uh, the, the reporter was hot.

She was absolutely stunningly beautiful, and that's why I wanted that channel.

But, so we have different reasons why we do different things, and so the person

that goes, well, who's gonna listen to me?

It's saturated number one.

There are a lot of podcasts.

If you hear there's like 4 million podcasts, which is true, but only

maybe a couple hundred thousand are actually producing podcasts.

There are a lot of people that start off and they're on a free media host,

and they do maybe three episodes.

They figure out that, oh, to make this good, it's gonna take a little more

effort than just talking into my phone.

And they quit.

Well, if it's on a free media host, it stays there forever,

until they, you know, pull it down.

And so I always say, if you look and you go, oh, there's so

many podcasts about my niche.

I'm like, go dig one step a little deeper.

See when the last time they put out an episode and you're gonna

see a lot of them were like, 2020, because that was like pandemic time.

Everybody's bored.

Let's start a podcast.

So, uh, you know, and you're.

You know, you never know what's gonna happen.

I always say when people, I have people like, Hey, I'm

gonna do a podcast about this.

Do you think people would listen?

And I'm like, that's like coming to me going, Hey, I'm

gonna mix these ingredients.

Do you think if I put these into an oven and bake them, they'd be good?

I'm like, there's only one way to tell.

You know, do it and taste it.

Go, yeah, this is actually pretty good, but you can't, you know,

there are best practices that you can talk about, but in the end, if

you wanna see if it's gonna work or not, you gotta put out the podcast.

It's like anything, you know, if I wanna play guitar, you know, you and I

have, have, have, have drunkenly shared stages together in Florida a few times,

and I, if I, if, if, if I want to start learning to play bass and I want to get

up on that stage and play stand by me, or I wanna play a journey song, or I

wanna play whatever it is I wanna play.

The first thing I've gotta do is get up, make sure the guitar's got some

strings on it, stick a strap on, get it over my shoulder, and just hit the

thing with something to make a sound.

And it might sound good, it might sound bad, but I've got to

start somewhere with that one.

A lot of people, certainly over the last five or six years

have thrown out that phrase.

It's never been easier to start a podcast.

And you alluded to it earlier, you know, one of the upsides of

podcasting is everyone can start one.

One of the downsides is everyone can start one.

With, with the change in technology, the availability of cheaper,

higher quality microphones, the availability of online software, the

availability of different hosting platforms and different web platforms

and ai, this, that and the other.

What, what do you see that landscape as being like at the minute?

The, the number one, the ease of starting a podcast, and then number two, the

ease of starting a quality podcast.

What does that feel like today?

Oh, man.

Compared to 2005, I was actually, I, I hadn't even discovered WordPress

yet, so I was making my website in Dreamweaver, and then I used a software

called Feed for All to make my feed.

It was an absolute nightmare.

So that's definitely easier now you just upload your file to your media host.

They give you a feed that's done.

There are tools like the VO caster from Focus, right where you press

and hold down a button and it sets your recording level for you.

I just saw there's a Zoom F three that now, and let's get our geek on records

and 32 bit floating, which means basically it's really hard to make bad audio.

Uh, so things are definitely getting easier.

That's the beauty of it because.

Man, the early days of podcasting things just sounded horrendous.

And if we can get people to only use the phone as a last resort, and

if you are recording on your phone, get that microphone by your mouth.

Don't do the whole put it on speaker and stick it on the desk.

That's not gonna work.

But it's, it is so much easier to do that.

And I've, I've had people that, you know, we get 'em into Apple

and Spotify, et cetera, and they're like, okay, what's the next thing?

And I go, well, now it's just make great episodes.

Promote it, and that's really it.

Just repeat over and over and over the, you mentioned things like ai.

That's gonna be a fun one to watch because when it's, when I'm having it write

stuff, and I usually don't use what it writes for me, I let it write something

and I go, oh, that's where I should go.

And then I go off and write it.

I use it as almost like a brainstorming.

Tool because I know so many people are saying, oh, people are gonna have chat,

g p t, write a script and then I'm gonna throw it into revoice her and have it

voice it and put it out and automate it.

So you know, it'll find content, record it post.

I'm like, yeah, and that's gonna be awful.

The, the one thing that AI can't do, I was listening to an episode, uh, Adam A.

Adams does a show, I think it's Grow Your Podcast.

If I remember right, I had to met up with him a little bit.

He's a nice guy.

But he did an episode that basically he said, I'm just gonna kind of

go a little bit on a tangent.

And he'd had a kind of a hard year and he, he kept losing friends.

And he goes, all I wanna say today is car diem.

Seize the day.

We don't know how many days we have left.

And you know, don't, don't go to your grave with your podcast in

you get it out there, you know?

And I was like, chat g p t can't do that.

Because it was very emotional and it was based on his in, you know, his

influences and things that had happened.

And I'm like, chat G B T can't do that.

And so I'm not sold that AI is gonna be the savior of making

content going forward in the future.

I mean, it's, on one hand it's as bad as it's ever gonna be

right now 'cause it's brand new.

But I, I think the human side of podcasting is a what attracts people.

They're either gonna like you or they're gonna, or they're gonna love you.

I have a, a friend of mine, Daniel J.

Lewis is who is very much a deep dive, just the facts kind of guy.

That's the way he is.

And I'm a little more looser, a little more goofy.

And we're both very good friends and we have both had I.

A, a listener say, Hey, I, I tried to listen to your friend show,

but, uh, you know, in my case that that guy's just all over the place.

He's like a campaign for a D H D and I've had other people go, yeah, try to

listen to Daniel, man, that guy's dry.

And so you put it out there and you're gonna attract the people that

like you and the people that don't.

That's fine.

There are other 4 million podcasts to go listen to that aren't this one.

It is

funny, isn't it?

The, the, that alludes to, to the, the kind of question earlier as well.

It goes back to that a little bit in, in sofar as you know.

What would you say to someone that, that, that is thinking about starting a show but

is worried there are too many around you?

And I can say the same thing in different ways and have different

opinions and all the, the life experience that we've got leads to

that opinion and, and I think that is the beauty of any kind of creation.

You know, whether it's blogging, Whether it is, whether it's YouTube, whether

it's, it's, it's, it's audio recording and, and putting it out as a podcast.

You took me back there with Dreamweaver mate.

I was using that as well when it was Macromedia.

I remember before Adobe even bought it, and I was doing the same, I

was coding websites, using tables.

You know, c s s had not taken a hold.

We were, you know, we were, wow.

We were going, all, all the styling was in line, if there was any styling at all.

And it was building r s s feeds for, for, for blogs and.

Man, like the halon days of, uh, of, of the web 1.0 timeframe.

And it was fascinating.

But that, that sort of leads me onto technology.

'cause we talked about AI and we talked about Dreamweaver.

All right.

I think it's pretty rare that they're gonna come up again in the

same conversation, but the Yeah, we probably got tick in a box there.

Mentioned Dreamweaver and AI in the same sentence.

But the, so AI is fascinating to me, and, and, and there's a.

Even if we don't think about ai, right?

The tech of podcasting is something that I talk to.

Uh, this might, I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna avoid try and avoid this going into

rant mode, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of rubbish out there, right?

So we're in the hosting game, all right?

You work over, at, over at Lipson.

Our friends, Rob Elsie and Brad and Laurie and yourself and, and

some fantastic people over there.

Highly, highly recommended Libsyn for, for years and, and what a fantastic team.

And obviously we work on Captivate and it's.

I've always been a fan of collaboration ever since I got in the industry.

You know, my goal has been to, to to, to, um, be friends with

people and all ships rise.

And, and that's why I never see anyone as competition.

And I, I, I think that's why everyone's such good friends.

But I'm seeing recently that there's a lot of technology companies that

are doing things with quote unquote ai and they're putting things like the

podcasting 2.0 stuff and they're doing like half baked implementations of it.

And, and, and, and whatever else, just to get a tick on a feature list

and, and, and just almost do a little bit of every piece of buzzword just

so that they can use it in marketing.

And the reason that I say that is because it's, it's the, it's the stepping stone to

the, the next set of, of logic, which is technology and podcasting has been great.

But every time I see someone say, we've created this AI tool

that's gonna do magic clips for you, which is great, that's cool.

And we're gonna allow social sharing.

And all I do is think of clamor.

You know, we've been there, we've done it, and I think,

and it happens again and again.

Okay.

We're gonna build a network.

It's gonna be a sports vertical, and it's gonna be an app.

It's gonna be the Netflix of podcasting, just in the sports vertical.

And I'm like, all right.

You mean like Spotify or Apple Podcast is, you know, so there's a lot of repeated

stuff and people pick upon buzzwords and they try to use those buzzword buzzwords

to elevate themselves within the industry.

Does that, is that just me being the grumpy guy in podcasting?

Or is there any logic and any reason to just slow down as a podcaster?

Don't worry too much about the trends and just focus on distributing good content.

Like where, where's your head on that one?

Because it's like, it frustrates me a lot.

Yeah, it does.

I had, 'cause what happens is I had a guy in in at the London Show that's like,

oh, well you're just an old podcaster.

And I'm like, well no.

I've been around and I've seen it.

I know there's something now about, it's an app.

It's like cherry picking or something.

Cherries, I forget what it is, but it's clamor.

It's clamor with an absolutely new name.

And I just said, go Google clamor.

I go this, this has been tried.

I'm not here saying it's not gonna work.

I'm just letting you know the history that this has been tried.

It failed.

And if I have another person that come up and says, Hey, I've, I've got

a tool, it's gonna solve this, the discoverability problem, and podcasting.

And I go, podcasting doesn't have a discoverability problem.

And I got into an argument once and somebody said, well, I.

There's no, uh, oh, I forget what it was, but discoverability.

And I said, okay, explain that.

And they said, well, that's where, you know, some sort of algorithm, watches what

you do and, and, and learns what you like, and then recommends things that you like.

And I go, oh, I have that.

I go, it's not artificial intelligence, it's actual intelligence.

They're called friends and they go, oh, you like that one thing?

You should listen to this podcast.

And if a friend recommends it, I'm gonna go listen to it.

And.

It's just one of those things where you know you have to market your show.

Um, I was talking with Gary Art.

He does a show called Everything Everywhere, super popular show, and

he's just knocking it outta the park.

Well, he pays for marketing.

I.

He said, well, think about it.

He goes, the, the second Avengers movie now, I think they're like three

or four, but you know, the, there was the one where everybody didn't

end so well and then there was the follow-up and we're all waiting to

see, oh, what happened to so-and-so Who's gonna make it and who didn't?

It's this giant cliffhanger and they, they spent $200 million promoting a

movie that everybody was waiting to see.

Now that went on to make like 2 billion with a B, but they

still had a marketing budget.

And so I'm with you on that.

When I hear, oh, it's this, the, you know, this is gonna solve

discoverability by placing a, uh, promo of your show at the very, very,

very, very end of somebody else's show.

And I go, okay, that might be a trickle, but I don't think

that's gonna be the giant fire hose that you're painting it as.

Well,

and that's the, I think that's the funny thing, man.

The, the, the, the, the trickles turn into tributaries and each one of those leads

into a river, and that river is marketing.

And it's, you're absolutely right.

There is no one way to do it.

And I, I often say this on this show, it's, you know, people will, you see

all the time in the, in the Facebook groups, how do I grow my podcast?

It's the number one question.

And I always think to myself, right, okay, let's swap the word podcast

out for anything else, right?

How do I grow my band?

You do gigs until you cannot move your arms.

How do I grow my business?

You go out and make sure that everyone knows what you do and where to find

you, how to find you, and then you let them know that you will do a good job.

Right?

If I'm a plumber, that's all I do and it's, that's why, you know.

Old podcasters.

It was like my old dad, the electrician, he's still getting work 'cause he's the,

he is the old guy that has been there for a long time doing the marketing.

And it's quite a flippant thing from, from certainly from my side

to just say, go and learn marketing.

'cause there are so many facets to that one.

But to me there is, there is, there will never be one single way to grow.

Or to do anything with success.

It's a range of things, and that's why the marketing mix exists.

It's not, that's not made up, you know?

Well, and, and the thing that I think, and I'm just pulling this

number outta my butt, I'm gonna say 90% of podcasters don't do the

one thing that every business does.

If I'm opening a restaurant.

I'm not going to open a restaurant with food that's never been tasted.

I want somebody to eat this and go, Ew, it needs more salt.

Or this, can we, what's that?

And, and I get it.

I totally understand why people do this.

You just spent 15 hours making a 15 minute podcast because you're

going through the learning curve and I just want it out there.

I just want to, but you need to stop.

I mean, Ron Howard is a super famous director, actor.

He's won a gazillion awards and before a movie goes live.

He sits in a theater with the audience because he knows when they're supposed

to laugh and cry and shriek or whatever, and he goes, if it's not getting the

reaction that I'm looking for, he goes, we need to go back and edit because

I want this people to, to cry here.

And they're, they're laughing.

Instead, there's something really, really wrong.

I.

And we ask our mom, and mom says, oh honey, it's, look at you.

You're so professional.

Look at you with the microphone.

And she sends you off to, and now I'm gonna go spend money on marketing because

you know, Dave said that one guy did well.

Yeah.

But is your podcast getting the reaction you wanted to?

And because of you, mark, you'd said you need to go learn marketing.

So I bought a Dan Kennedy.

'cause I've heard about Dan Kennedy from every single person.

And he, he asked the question, and I think most podcasters don't, which is,

why should someone listen to your podcast?

What, what's gonna make you different?

How are you delivering value?

And I get it.

Look, if you just want to talk about.

Whatever in the basement.

I, I love, you know, tennis, I'm gonna do a tennis podcast and

I just wanna talk about tennis.

Okay, that's fine.

But if the goal was to grow it and maybe later even monetize

it, It's gotta be a good product.

And I'm not sure everybody does that.

I mean, I just went through this, I redid my sales page and brought in a coach

and they said, oh, this is good this.

Ooh.

And I was talking about features, but I wasn't talking about benefits and I was

just way too close to my own material.

And I went, oh, you know what?

That's absolutely right.

And so, you know, when you talk about marketing and growing your show, I think

a lot of people are trying to grow a show that's not really connecting the

way they think it is with their audience.

I.

I wholly agree with that, and I, I, I think so many people are so

close to the thing that they love because they love it, because, you

know, podcasting we said right at the beginning, it's the thing that allows

us to talk about the thing that we love.

So, and we, and we never, I'm in a band and I, I, you know, someone says, you're

gonna, you're gonna go and tour, or you're gonna do X, Y, and Z and you're gonna

do all these gigs, and that's amazing.

It feels good.

If someone says, I dunno if how big McFly are out in, in the us but in the

uk if you are McFly, you've done your time, but you've gotta make two albums

that are really poppy and you'll, you'll do well off them, but they're probably

not the thing that you want to do.

But after that, you can make what you want.

You're gonna probably do it, and it's one of those things where

it'll feel uncomfortable, but the, the fact of the matter is the music

that you make and the brand that you put out there is the product.

And once people like that product, you've got latitude to introduce new things.

It's like the successful restaurant.

Okay, here's a preview night.

We're thinking about bringing some Asian infusions into this menu.

Let's just do one preview.

Now, we're not gonna change the whole menu, but we understand the

menu is a product, and I agree that a lot of podcasters don't

necessarily think like that.

I've, I've, I've always been, weirdly, I.

I don't wanna s Yeah, probably lucky just because I, I've, I've been in, I've been

working for myself since I was like 21, 22 years old, just through a D H D necessity.

It was like, better work for myself, otherwise I'm gonna

get fired three times a year.

So it was, which was, that's my twenties mate.

That was my twenties.

So I've always been able to sort of say, Okay, with your podcast,

why don't we approach this, for example, like a tech startup.

You know, if, if I do something at Captivate, I want to test it.

You know, if I bring out membership and tipping functionality, it's not, I'm not

just testing the technicalities of it.

I'm testing, does anyone actually want this?

So, we'll, you know, we'll, we'll devise some tests and that might be

going out and speaking to people.

It might be going out and testing, uh, you know, whatever the user flow

and, and, and, and x, Y, and Z and going through and making sure that

they actually want the thing that we're going to build as a podcaster.

Like you said, we just let go.

We just let go.

And if that's me wanting to do that for that cell therapy, that's cool.

But as you say, if it's gonna be a product, There does come a point

where we do what you've just said.

We, we, we tighten up, we think about things a little more, which leads me

to, to, to the next train of thought, which is I'm a busy kind of podcaster.

Okay?

So I'm, I'm someone that is on the cusp of great numbers.

I know it's a good show.

I know it is a show that people respond to.

I get feedback from people.

Um, I'm on what I feel to be the cusp of making.

Money and good money from this.

Maybe covering a car payment, maybe even covering a mortgage payment and being

able to go four days a week in my day job.

That's where I am.

I can't seem to get it over the line.

What, what do you tend to see as someone that's done this since 2005?

What are the things that people are too loose on that will stop them?

Turn it into that thing that they want it to be.

Yeah, the, the one that always really makes me scratch my head, and

this is again, in podcasting, like you mentioned, you have a lot of little garden

hoses that fill up a river, and so, but I will see people like, I'm trying to

grow my audience and I'll go and look.

And they're in Spotify, but they're not in Apple.

Or maybe they're in both, but there are another like 10 directories

that you could list your show in.

And I was like, you know, if you, in the US we have Halloween and, and you

dress up your kids in weird costumes and they go out and get candy and usually

it's anybody with their front porch light on, they have candy and that kid

doesn't look at the street and go, well, alright, so everybody has their light on.

I might go to this one and, and Nah, not that one.

Not that one.

And then no, they want candy.

So they go to every single house and they get candy and every podcaster's

like, I want more downloads.

And you're like, okay, here, here are all these directories that

have their lights on and have thousands of people that love audio.

And you're like, nah, I don't need those.

iHeartRadio.

Never heard of it.

Amazon.

Nah, maybe I'm like, list your show everywhere.

So there's that.

And then you get into, I see, uh, I know there was a database of newsletters

and again, Not a horrible strategy.

If there's a niche that you know, this is a bunch of people that raise cows

and you have a podcast about raising cows, okay, it might make sense to

advertise in that newsletter, but we know those people like to read and you're

looking for people who like to listen.

And so that's where trying to find other shows like yours that you can

either be a guest on or you know, sponsor them or things like that.

'cause you really want to go to where your audience is and your audiences.

Primarily listening to podcasts and the thing that drives me bonkers,

'cause I get about four a day, is, hello, I found your show and I love it.

So right there, I'm like, okay, my name's Dave.

Not that I'm an egomaniac, but it's pretty easy to find.

I say it at the beginning of every episode and when you say, I love your

show, I have about five, which one?

So I know right there.

I'm just gonna get a bunch of spam.

And then it's all about the guest.

And I always tell people, if you want to be a guest on another show,

make it all about their audience and how you can serve their audience.

Again, good podcasters are serving their audience and explain to the the host how

you can help them serve their audience.

Oh, I, I heard you talk about topic A.

I'm also in this field.

Have you've ever talked about topic B and go that route.

So when you can get your show in front of other listeners,

that right now seems to be.

You know, whether you're doing paid advertising and some of that gets

really expensive, so be careful if your podcast isn't used as a

marketing tool to bring in more money.

You're kind of just lighting your money on fire.

It's gonna be hard to get that back.

So, uh, you know, but, you know, getting your show in front of other listeners

seems to be the way right now that, that people are growing their show.

It's fascinating that, that people often.

We'll start a podcast and they'll, you know, they'll say, well,

okay, I've started my, my show.

I've got two or three episodes out there and it's not growing.

And when can I monetize?

When can I make money?

And what always amazes me is that I, if I say, if I walk in, I've got a,

I'm on a startup accelerator, okay?

I've got a new startup business and I register my limited company here in the

uk and I get some business cards done.

I get some flyers or some leaflets done and I don't really do anything else.

I just walk in there on that startup accelerator and I say,

well, I've got the business.

I've got these flyers.

Why is it not making any money?

I'm gonna get sort of laughed out of the building.

I.

Because I'm expecting a 40 hour a week job to deliver a 40 hour a

week salary, but I'm only putting in one hour or two hours per week.

And for me, the expectations with so many people are that you can start

a podcast and you can make money.

Right away.

Where the hell has that come from, man?

Like, why if I start playing golf, I, I don't wanna make money.

Uh, just if I start playing guitar, don't wanna make money.

If I do a YouTube channel, I don't wanna make money.

If I write a blog, I'm not thinking about making money.

Why do you think it is that podcasting suddenly people are

just saying, I start a show.

I should be making money.

Where's that come from?

I, the easy money is the part I'm with you that scratches my head.

I think part of it is the, the kind of span of time we went through where Spotify

was just spending money, like it was, you know, uh, free basically, you know, 200

million to Joe Rogan and things like that.

So I think that's part of it.

And I also think.

Some of it is, uh, we'll, we'll call them gurus.

The people that sell hope for three easy payments.

You know, I can change your life.

Just give me, you know, $300, three easy payments, yada, yada, yada.

And, and they say things that you like.

Think about it.

Uh, and I know you guys have different singing, uh, contests.

In the UK we have American Idol.

Anybody tell me who the season six American Idol winner was?

So you can get tons of exposure, but if you haven't put in the reps and not that

those people aren't un, they're not, you know, they're obviously talented, they

won, but it takes more than exposure.

It's about a relationship that you build with your audience.

And I, I know I've mentioned the.

I did a book on uh, uh, podcast monetization and I asked people, how

long did it take you to really, you know, generate some, some decent income?

And it was somewhere between two and three years leaning much more towards three.

Nobody wants to hear that.

They want to hear.

And you know, I had somebody the other day and they have about 60 downloads

an episode now that's three classrooms.

You know, my background's in teaching.

That's half a hallway.

That's pretty good.

Those people could be listening to satellite radio or playing

Xbox or all these other things.

But what nobody says is 5% or less are gonna take action If you

have something to sell and you're like, oh, that can't be real.

But I'm here to tell you, I, if you keep your ear open for it, anytime

I go to a podcast event and they're talking about monetization, if somebody

brings up like, how many, how much of your audience can you expect to.

To actually, you know, go for a premium, uh, effort and it's around 3%.

When I listen to, uh, when I talk to the people from Teachable,

that's a, a training platform, they said 2% and Radio Labs a really,

really popular science podcast.

And one time they were doing.

Kind of a uh, a fundraiser like, Hey, we know you like the show.

Thanks so much.

We appreciate your po your support.

There are millions of listeners and for that we're eternally grateful.

Uh, we're just trying to get up to 1% of you Contr.

And I was like, wait, radio Lab.

'cause if you're in a room and you say the word radio lab and there's a fan of the

show, they could be like 15 feet from you.

They hear Radiolab, they're going, oh my God, I love that show.

It's crazy that they have these rabid fans and they were trying to get up to 1%.

So I don't think most people talk about that.

'cause it's hard to sell your life-changing podcasting

course for three easy payments.

When you say, oh, by the way, it's kind of hard.

I.

Not everybody's gonna buy.

And it's not 50%, it's not 20%, it's 10%.

But you build the trust like I trust you, mark, because I know your background.

I know you've got a lot of marketing in your background, and I just love

the way you think and I love your sense of humor and things like that.

So if Mark says, you know what you need to do, you need to go learn marketing.

I'm like, you know what?

That's right.

My background's in teaching.

I need more marketing chops.

So that's where that really is the power.

Again, it's the relationship.

So, but I don't know, I, you know, the poor music industry, everybody

thinks music is free and you know, every musician's truly starving.

Now there are, I, I just, there's a musician I watch on YouTube and she

said, I'm not putting my music on Spotify, because if you buy my CD

for like $9, And I, it was something ridiculous, like 38,000 plays.

She goes, one CD is worth like a gazillion different plays.

And she says, so consequently, if you're a true fan of my music, I've

made the packaging special and you know, come buy my actual physical cd.

And I was like, well, good on you sister.

Bucking the system.

Creativity is, has always been one of those things that's

so difficult to, to, to monetize.

You look at.

You know, you and I come from that, from that musical background, and you, you,

the, the amount of gigs that you have to do to, to earn the first hundred bucks.

And then to go from a hundred bucks a night band to a 500 and to a thousand,

and then to actually supporting people.

And I mean, it's, it's not a dissimilar journey, is it?

It's like you say,

it's the reps.

Well, and, and when people go, can you make a living in podcasting?

You go, absolutely.

Can you make a living as a musician?

I.

Or an athlete, or an author, or an actor.

'cause we're in the entertainment business, like it or not.

And so sure you can, but there are a lot of really, really

talented musicians in Nashville.

You know, tendon bar, you know, it's, it's not a automatic thing.

I, I've seen people, they'll, they'll hear me say that three year thing

and then they'll do a, a podcast that may or may not be growing a whole

lot and they're like, I've already been doing it for three years.

I'm ready to make money.

And I'm like, No, no, no.

It's three years to grow enough.

It's not based on time.

I mean, otherwise I should have a Grammy.

I've been playing the guitar since I was 12, so, you know, it's not time-based.

It's the size of the audience and the more niche you are, then you might

get away with a smaller audience.

Uh, I think one of my favorite.

Just examples of a niche podcast.

There's a guy that does the chameleon breeder and he makes cages for chameleons.

So he's actually making a decent amount of cash, but he

doesn't have a ton of downloads.

Well, yeah, but the people that listen to that are exactly who he's trying to reach.

So it, it varies on that, but it's, it's not based on time.

It's based on growing the audience, and that's the part that's not always easy.

That's a great example.

That's a great example.

And it, it, it's, you have to become so many other things.

When you get to that stage as well, you have to become the startup founder, the

business person, the bookkeeper, the marketer, the sales executive, the, the,

the, the, the administration assistant.

So there's a heck of a lot that goes into that.

Now, my friend, I'm gonna have to put a pin in it in just a second.

I could talk to you forever and I think we should absolutely jump back

on and talk a little bit more about the future of podcasting because I

think there's another hour in that.

So I, I, I think we should actually book a bit of a follow up on that one.

Just to wrap up and to give people a bit of a taster, what are you worried about?

Podcasting.

We're 20 years in.

What's the, what are the things that are on

your mind?

The thing that makes me worried is, look, advertising is definitely

a way to monetize your podcast.

If you have enough downloads, and we just talked about the niche, but what

I'm hearing are there are companies now that Mark, you remember that one

time, and I'm just making this up.

You remember that one time you got pulled over, you got a ticket.

And, uh, as the police that gave you the ticket was driving away,

you gave him the big middle finger.

Well, well, somebody took a picture of that, and I know you were only

18 at the time, but guess what?

Because of that, you're now seen as anti-police and consequently you are

not viable for advertising because of something you did forever ago.

There are companies, and I'm not making it up, that are doing that and they

explain, I was listening to a show about advertising and it, it was this company

explaining what they do and they have like 20 different services that they use

to go and research, not just the podcast.

But the podcaster, so if you wore a shirt that was maybe not

something, you know, whatever.

And I was like, who, who wants to step into a position where

you're just gonna get scrutinized?

So I'm worried about advertising.

I, I've listened to some popular podcasts and I've busted out the stopwatch and it's

30% and I'm like, look, radio's at 30%.

One of the reasons podcasting was so popular in the beginning

was 'cause it wasn't radio.

So I'm worried that.

Some of us want to turn it back into radio, and I'm like, no,

let's, let's avoid that, shall we?

People get comfortable with what they're comfortable with.

That's, that's a sad fact.

And I think when money starts changing hands, people rely on what they know,

which can stifle, I don't like the word innovation 'cause I think it's

overused, but it can stifle genuine.

Innovation.

Alright my friend, listen, I will stick a pin in it right there.

I think we should do a follow up 'cause we could talk forever and I'd love to get

even more into the future of podcasting.

But I want to, I wanna ask where are you gonna be in person?

'cause I think everyone in podcasting, I.

To be honest, I think everyone outside of podcasting should meet Dave Jackson.

So where, where are you headed mate?

Where, what events are you at

next?

I'm gonna be in Denver, uh, at Podcast Movement.

I'm going to be at an Arkansas podcast, uh, event.

I just got that yesterday.

I'm gonna be speaking at Indie podcast.

That's Joe Pardo's thing in New Jersey.

Uh, and I'm gonna be in New York at a, and this is sad 'cause I

don't remember the name of it.

It's a Christian thing that just came up as well.

If you wanna see where I'm at, just go to school at podcasting.com/where

and I'll have my schedule there.

Is Joe's event in the same

place?

It's in a different place.

He moved it and it's not the, and I love that event, by the way.

I love that event too.

That was my staple event for ages, man.

I used to fly into Jersey just for that event.

I used to love it.

Ask Jess Cook Forman about the chicken bus.

Next time you speak to a, I got from, I got from New York City to Joe's event

on a bus that I shared with chickens.

Someone did me a dirty there mate, I'll tell you that.

I think so, right?

That is enough of that chat.

Go and find Dave Jackson anywhere you can find him.

He's an absolutely wonderful person and an absolute, absolute friend

to everyone in podcasting and a mighty talent within our industry.

So Dave, thank you so much my friend, and to you the ever

present, beautiful listener.

Keep on doing what you do, keep sharing your voice 'cause remember, it

does matter to those who follow you.

Keep doing it and I'll see you on the next run.