1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,400 Mia Hobbs: Hello, and welcome to the Why I Knit podcast. My name 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:10,680 is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical psychologist who's 3 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,140 passionate about knitting and its benefits for our mental 4 00:00:13,140 --> 00:00:16,290 health. Each week on the podcast, I interview a different 5 00:00:16,290 --> 00:00:19,410 knitter about why they knit and how it benefits their mental 6 00:00:19,410 --> 00:00:24,060 well being. This week on the podcast, I'm talking to Betsan 7 00:00:24,060 --> 00:00:27,420 Corkhill. Betson is a former physiotherapist and lifestyle 8 00:00:27,420 --> 00:00:30,750 coach. She's an expert in therapeutic knitting, and also 9 00:00:30,750 --> 00:00:35,730 the author of Knit for Health and Wellness. You can find links 10 00:00:35,730 --> 00:00:38,490 to the Stitch links Website and any of the yarns and patterns we 11 00:00:38,490 --> 00:00:39,870 discuss in the show notes. 12 00:00:46,740 --> 00:00:48,540 Hi Betsan welcome to the podcast. 13 00:00:48,780 --> 00:00:50,130 Betsan Corkhill: Thank you. Thank you for having me. 14 00:00:51,060 --> 00:00:53,760 Mia Hobbs: It's a pleasure. I'm really pleased to be able to 15 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,420 talk to the kind of one of the founders of therapeutic 16 00:00:57,420 --> 00:01:02,610 knitting. I would love to start with asking where your story 17 00:01:02,610 --> 00:01:03,510 with knitting began. 18 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,180 Betsan Corkhill: Well, my mother told me to knit when I was 19 00:01:06,180 --> 00:01:10,740 seven. I can remember being intensely frustrated at the time 20 00:01:10,740 --> 00:01:17,070 because I immediately wanted a jumper. So I didn't then knit 21 00:01:18,270 --> 00:01:21,060 for quite some time. And it actually until I was expecting 22 00:01:21,060 --> 00:01:23,700 my first child, and then I knitted quite a few things, and 23 00:01:23,700 --> 00:01:27,120 I knitted the christening shawl. And then I had another big gap. 24 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,720 And I went back to it when I started this project, the 25 00:01:30,750 --> 00:01:34,890 research into the meditative creative and social benefits of 26 00:01:34,890 --> 00:01:37,200 knitting because I because I'm really firm believer in 27 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,020 practising what I preach, and now I do it more or less every 28 00:01:40,020 --> 00:01:40,440 day. 29 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,250 Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And did the project come about first rather 30 00:01:44,250 --> 00:01:47,100 than you weren't knitting at the time? You started because of the 31 00:01:47,100 --> 00:01:47,760 project? 32 00:01:47,810 --> 00:01:51,590 Betsan Corkhill: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a it's quite a long, 33 00:01:51,620 --> 00:01:54,680 it's, it's, I think it's quite an interesting story, how I got 34 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,620 into it, actually, because I was a I was working as a 35 00:01:57,620 --> 00:02:03,530 physiotherapist, a community physiotherapist, and I was asked 36 00:02:03,530 --> 00:02:08,630 by GPs to go into people's homes for people who weren't able to 37 00:02:08,630 --> 00:02:11,210 get to the physiotherapy department for some reason. So 38 00:02:11,210 --> 00:02:13,670 it could be a whole range of reasons across a whole range of 39 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:18,560 age groups. And I soon realised that, you know, call her Mrs. 40 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,470 Smith, Mrs. Smith wasn't getting out of her chair, because she 41 00:02:21,470 --> 00:02:24,410 had no reason to get out of her chair, she had absolutely 42 00:02:24,410 --> 00:02:27,590 nothing in the day, no purpose, nothing she was successful at. 43 00:02:29,540 --> 00:02:34,160 And I wasn't at that you know, the system didn't allow me to, 44 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:39,140 to, to give the time and the treatment that that person 45 00:02:39,140 --> 00:02:43,070 needed. And I was allowed to go in three times maybe to change 46 00:02:43,070 --> 00:02:47,630 somebody's whole lifestyle. So I got really frustrated and I, I 47 00:02:47,630 --> 00:02:52,880 left and I became a freelance production editor for a range 48 00:02:52,880 --> 00:03:01,700 magazines, and ended up ended up on a range of craft and across 49 00:03:01,700 --> 00:03:07,520 the whole, the whole craft portfolio. And I did a three, 50 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,990 six month stint on the craft portfolio, one of my jobs was to 51 00:03:12,830 --> 00:03:18,200 sort the letters pages. And that entailed reading all the letters 52 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,590 that came into the office every day, and they literally got 53 00:03:21,590 --> 00:03:26,150 sacks full of letters every day. And I realised that most of them 54 00:03:26,150 --> 00:03:28,760 are talking about the therapeutic benefit of their 55 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:33,200 craft, but particularly knitting. And I mentioned it to 56 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,770 the editor of one of the knitting magazines? And she 57 00:03:36,770 --> 00:03:39,800 said, Oh, yes, I we know that something really important here. 58 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,710 We really don't know what it what it is. We've got a filing 59 00:03:42,710 --> 00:03:45,290 cabinet full of letters there. Would you like to go read them? 60 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,930 And they were literally 1000s of letters because they just run a 61 00:03:47,930 --> 00:03:51,920 competition about what is it you find, you know, beneficial about 62 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:56,090 knitting. And it was the first time that somebody with a 63 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,020 medical background had read these letters. And it was really 64 00:04:00,020 --> 00:04:04,760 striking. They were really profound life stories. You know, 65 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,600 I remember I remember very vividly the first letter I 66 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:13,160 picked up was from a 14 year old girl who had written I don't 67 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,800 have to take my pain medication when I knit, I am often in 68 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,830 hospital and I don't so I don't have to take that medication 69 00:04:18,830 --> 00:04:25,520 when I knit. It helps me and the second was from a lady who tried 70 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,910 to commit suicide and her husband had taken her in a 71 00:04:28,910 --> 00:04:31,640 simple knitting project into hospital out of desperation, 72 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,580 really to try and get her interested in something. And she 73 00:04:34,580 --> 00:04:38,060 said now, now I look forward to my next project. And I look 74 00:04:38,060 --> 00:04:42,140 forward to tomorrow. And it changed her life. So there were 75 00:04:42,140 --> 00:04:45,080 those kinds of profound stories and I thought wow there's 76 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,360 something really important here 77 00:04:47,900 --> 00:04:49,730 Mia Hobbs: that gave me goosebumps to hear that. Yeah. 78 00:04:49,730 --> 00:04:51,890 And to think they were sitting in a filing cabinet until you 79 00:04:51,890 --> 00:04:52,340 came along. 80 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,875 Betsan Corkhill: yes. And so my first thought was, I wonder if 81 00:04:54,939 --> 00:04:58,582 this wonder if this could help Mrs. Smith who sits in her 82 00:04:58,646 --> 00:05:02,672 armchair said to, you know, in our armchair to enable her to be 83 00:05:02,736 --> 00:05:06,826 successful at something too. So using it as a springboard to, to 84 00:05:06,890 --> 00:05:10,916 get interested in the world in the world, you know, open up the 85 00:05:10,980 --> 00:05:14,750 world and get interested in doing other things. And then it 86 00:05:14,814 --> 00:05:18,521 then as more I started to research it, because I wanted to 87 00:05:18,585 --> 00:05:21,972 know, I think the striking things is there were large 88 00:05:22,036 --> 00:05:26,062 numbers of people saying very, very similar things, as I'm sure 89 00:05:26,126 --> 00:05:30,216 you've discovered. And I wanted to know, why that was happening, 90 00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:34,050 what was happening, and if there was any science behind it, 91 00:05:34,114 --> 00:05:37,948 because you know, there had to be something happening within 92 00:05:38,012 --> 00:05:41,208 them biologically and chemically, for them to feel 93 00:05:41,272 --> 00:05:45,298 better. And so I wanted to know, what, what what was happening. 94 00:05:45,362 --> 00:05:49,132 So that's how it started. And the more I researched more, I 95 00:05:49,196 --> 00:05:52,583 realised how you know how important it was. So then I 96 00:05:52,647 --> 00:05:55,523 started thinking about developing the idea of 97 00:05:55,587 --> 00:05:59,166 therapeutic knitting which, and for me, I would, I would 98 00:05:59,229 --> 00:06:03,192 describe therapeutic knitting as a combination of knitting and 99 00:06:03,256 --> 00:06:06,834 knowledge. So enhancing that, you know, knitting has its 100 00:06:06,898 --> 00:06:10,860 benefits, but you can learn how to enhance those benefits. And 101 00:06:10,924 --> 00:06:15,014 you can have knowledge about how to do that. But also, you know, 102 00:06:15,078 --> 00:06:19,168 people who are fit and well can do that. But also, if you've got 103 00:06:19,232 --> 00:06:23,003 a medical condition, you can learn about that condition and 104 00:06:23,067 --> 00:06:26,709 learn how to use knitting to manage the symptoms, further 105 00:06:26,773 --> 00:06:30,544 enhance those benefits. So that's where that's where it all 106 00:06:30,608 --> 00:06:34,314 started. So I approached the pain clinic here in Bath, and 107 00:06:34,378 --> 00:06:38,276 asked if they'd be interested in setting up a group. I didn't 108 00:06:38,340 --> 00:06:42,239 hear back from them for about six months. So I thought, well, 109 00:06:42,303 --> 00:06:46,201 you know, that's it. And then six months later, I said, well, 110 00:06:44,230 --> 00:07:07,270 Yeah. Still in there somewhere. 111 00:06:46,265 --> 00:06:50,291 they said, Yeah, we'd be quite interested. And that was back in 112 00:06:50,355 --> 00:06:54,445 2006. So I started up, I started a therapeutic knitting group in 113 00:06:54,509 --> 00:06:58,535 a pain clinic. And that really got me interested in the subject 114 00:06:58,599 --> 00:07:02,369 of pain. So since then, I've specialised in helping working 115 00:07:02,433 --> 00:07:06,587 with people with long term pain. And I thought well, ooh help i'm 116 00:07:06,651 --> 00:07:10,677 , you know how I'm gonna have to run the knitting group. In two 117 00:07:10,741 --> 00:07:14,767 weeks time, I better get back to knitting. Learning how to knit 118 00:07:14,831 --> 00:07:18,730 again. Of course, once you've learned to you never forget it. 119 00:07:20,910 --> 00:07:27,150 Yes. So then I got back to doing it myself. I do. I do really 120 00:07:27,150 --> 00:07:29,640 believe in practising what I preach. I don't think you can 121 00:07:29,730 --> 00:07:32,430 advise people to do things if you're not doing it yourself. 122 00:07:32,430 --> 00:07:32,820 Really? 123 00:07:34,250 --> 00:07:36,890 Mia Hobbs: Yeah. So is that do you keep doing it in your 124 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:38,420 personal life for yourself? 125 00:07:38,510 --> 00:07:40,370 Betsan Corkhill: Yes, yes. Yeah. 126 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,040 Mia Hobbs: And do you feel like you've noticed those therapeutic 127 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,550 benefits even on any level for you for your life? Are there 128 00:07:46,550 --> 00:07:48,770 times when you feel like you turn to the knitting more? 129 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,680 Betsan Corkhill: Oh, yes, absolutely. It's, it's, you 130 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:59,600 know, I use it as a as a way of managing stress on more or less 131 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,990 daily basis and bringing that especially recently, I think 132 00:08:02,990 --> 00:08:06,740 people have needed to keep those those you know, sort of stress 133 00:08:06,740 --> 00:08:12,020 systems. rebalance them because it's been stressful. In the last 134 00:08:12,020 --> 00:08:13,370 20 months for everybody, 135 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:14,390 Mia Hobbs: yeah, during COVID 136 00:08:14,780 --> 00:08:17,600 Betsan Corkhill: Yeah, so I think it's become more important 137 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,470 for people to incorporate those things into into their daily 138 00:08:21,470 --> 00:08:22,040 lives. 139 00:08:22,079 --> 00:08:26,069 Mia Hobbs: Yeah, I have to say I also felt really lucky to have a 140 00:08:26,789 --> 00:08:30,809 hobby, something I love doing that I could still do in COVID 141 00:08:30,809 --> 00:08:34,169 that it wasn't something you know, my main hobby was 142 00:08:34,169 --> 00:08:37,559 something that wasn't allowed because of restrictions. Yeah. 143 00:08:38,099 --> 00:08:40,649 Yeah. Are there particular things you enjoy knitting at the 144 00:08:40,649 --> 00:08:41,339 moment? 145 00:08:42,590 --> 00:08:46,310 Betsan Corkhill: Well, I have a I have different projects going 146 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,070 and I've always advised people to have a range of different 147 00:08:49,070 --> 00:08:52,730 projects on the go according to the mood they're in on the day 148 00:08:52,730 --> 00:08:55,730 but but also maybe according to mood they would like to move 149 00:08:55,730 --> 00:08:58,370 themselves into because you go into a different mind state with 150 00:08:58,550 --> 00:09:02,240 with whatever project you're on. So I have I will have an easy 151 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:11,480 one and or a more or a more challenging one on the go and my 152 00:09:11,510 --> 00:09:14,210 focus has changed actually you know from from when I was a 153 00:09:14,210 --> 00:09:17,390 child at seven to becoming really frustrated not being able 154 00:09:17,390 --> 00:09:22,550 to get an end product now it's more it's changed in that I can 155 00:09:22,580 --> 00:09:26,900 I can knit something that will take a year to finish and and be 156 00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:31,220 quite happy with that and just do it for the process. Yeah, not 157 00:09:31,220 --> 00:09:34,280 for not for that end product. The end product when it comes is 158 00:09:34,310 --> 00:09:40,550 extra specially nice. I spent the whole of the first lockdown 159 00:09:40,550 --> 00:09:46,160 knitting a I knitted we had our first grandchild arrived in the 160 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,130 first lock bit very beginning of the First lockdown 161 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:50,090 Mia Hobbs: congratulations 162 00:09:51,050 --> 00:09:54,260 Betsan Corkhill: we weren't allowed to see him. Oh, because 163 00:09:54,260 --> 00:09:58,010 they live quite a quite they live three hour drive away. So I 164 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,780 decided right I'll knit a cot blanket as a as a hug from us 165 00:10:02,780 --> 00:10:07,040 because we couldn't give him a physical hug. And our daughter 166 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,070 who's living with us at the time said, Oh, I love that, would you 167 00:10:10,070 --> 00:10:15,170 make me one only I want to double bed size. So I spent the 168 00:10:15,170 --> 00:10:20,180 whole of the first lockdown knitting this double bed. Very 169 00:10:20,180 --> 00:10:23,480 easy sort of garter stitch, but with a slightly zigzag, you 170 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,230 know, sort of pattern in it. And it was wonderful. That's what 171 00:10:27,230 --> 00:10:31,190 kept me sane, I think in those first really anxious months, 172 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:37,850 when everything was still very unknown. And, yeah, so that was 173 00:10:37,850 --> 00:10:40,550 her Christmas, one of her Christmas presents last year. 174 00:10:41,740 --> 00:10:44,200 Mia Hobbs: I guess she's got that to look back on. And you 175 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,590 can always associate that blanket, I guess with, you know, 176 00:10:47,590 --> 00:10:50,740 getting through that really difficult period of time. Yeah. 177 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,160 Does it matter to you what the stitch pattern is? Or like more 178 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,570 in the process? Does that make a difference or not particularly 179 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:02,620 Betsan Corkhill: Not really, it needs to be one that I can, if I 180 00:11:02,620 --> 00:11:05,830 want something easy and rhythmic like that, it needs to be 181 00:11:05,830 --> 00:11:09,850 something that I can, my brain can remember without really 182 00:11:09,850 --> 00:11:15,730 referring to a pattern all the time. So yeah, but I but I, I 183 00:11:15,730 --> 00:11:19,780 have, you know, sort of a done a lace shawl. Well not done. I'm 184 00:11:19,780 --> 00:11:26,020 doing a lace shawl and another and another large sort of 185 00:11:26,020 --> 00:11:30,700 shawls, scarf stroke shawl pattern. It's got a few 186 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:36,130 different complicated lines in it. You know, in between, I'm 187 00:11:36,130 --> 00:11:38,740 rhythmically away, and then suddenly I come on this line 188 00:11:38,770 --> 00:11:41,350 write I have to pay attention now. So that's a nice one. 189 00:11:42,010 --> 00:11:45,100 Because it takes it takes me about an hour to do a row 190 00:11:45,940 --> 00:11:47,140 Mia Hobbs: Oh, wow. It's big. 191 00:11:47,170 --> 00:11:50,590 Betsan Corkhill: It's sock yarn, Well, it's in sock yarn. Yes, 192 00:11:50,740 --> 00:11:54,490 it's, it depends. I pick up on sometimes I'll just do a dish 193 00:11:54,490 --> 00:11:57,580 cloth. Yeah. So you'll do it or a face cloth? 194 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,000 Mia Hobbs: So pretty much every day, you'll do some knitting. 195 00:12:00,090 --> 00:12:03,510 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm exactly the same. And I definitely also 196 00:12:03,510 --> 00:12:07,620 relate to the idea of having projects for different, I don't 197 00:12:07,620 --> 00:12:10,830 know, moments in my life. So I need something I find if I'm 198 00:12:10,830 --> 00:12:13,350 doing a zoom training or something, I need to knit 199 00:12:13,350 --> 00:12:17,850 something rhythmical. And easy, because it helps me focus on 200 00:12:18,210 --> 00:12:21,810 sitting still and listening. Yeah, I'm learning something. 201 00:12:21,810 --> 00:12:24,840 Whereas I also like to have something more complicated. They 202 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,450 have to really focus on so that it's not possible to think about 203 00:12:27,450 --> 00:12:30,450 stressful things for the rest of my life at the same time as 204 00:12:30,450 --> 00:12:31,230 doing the knitting. 205 00:12:31,739 --> 00:12:35,159 Betsan Corkhill: Yes, yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, obviously, 206 00:12:35,159 --> 00:12:37,919 the level is different for everybody. But if you have an 207 00:12:37,919 --> 00:12:41,309 easy project going on, you can listen to and take in 208 00:12:41,309 --> 00:12:44,459 information and retain information. I think lots of 209 00:12:44,459 --> 00:12:47,189 knitters say they retain the information better more 210 00:12:47,189 --> 00:12:51,479 effectively than anything. I wouldn't be able to do that with 211 00:12:51,479 --> 00:12:55,739 a complex pattern. No, it would have to be an easy one. Yeah. So 212 00:12:55,739 --> 00:12:58,859 my my brain, my brain is doing something automatically in the 213 00:12:58,859 --> 00:13:02,909 background, but my attention is on the on the talk. 214 00:13:03,170 --> 00:13:05,900 Mia Hobbs: Yeah, the same. And I find it's easy to do, you know, 215 00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:09,170 stocking stitch or garter stitch for, you know, you can get 216 00:13:09,170 --> 00:13:12,680 through the boring inches on on a sweater or something. While 217 00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:16,610 you're listening. Definitely find it helps me focus. And I 218 00:13:16,610 --> 00:13:20,450 would love to hear more about Stitchlinks and the kind of 219 00:13:20,450 --> 00:13:24,080 community you've created. And I know your invitation on the 220 00:13:24,110 --> 00:13:27,980 stitchlinks Website for people to send you stories about their 221 00:13:27,980 --> 00:13:30,980 relationship with knitting. I'm assuming that was inspired by 222 00:13:30,980 --> 00:13:33,830 this filing cabinet that you this treasure trove. You came 223 00:13:33,830 --> 00:13:35,120 across all those letters? 224 00:13:35,330 --> 00:13:39,950 Betsan Corkhill: Yes, yeah. And you know that I continue to get 225 00:13:39,950 --> 00:13:44,240 stories and the stories are mind blowing. And they're in, you 226 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,570 know, in what I mean, I had one yesterday from somebody who 227 00:13:47,570 --> 00:13:51,770 said, my mother, last year, my mother and father were both in 228 00:13:51,770 --> 00:13:55,310 intensive care with COVID. Fortunately, they both survived. 229 00:13:55,490 --> 00:13:59,900 But her mother returned home from hospital having to sleep on 230 00:13:59,900 --> 00:14:03,470 the sofa because she wasn't able to walk upstairs. She's too 231 00:14:03,470 --> 00:14:08,690 breathless to walk upstairs. Obviously, quite low, unable to 232 00:14:08,690 --> 00:14:14,780 use her left hand. And her daughter took her some yarn and 233 00:14:14,780 --> 00:14:19,640 some needles and asked her to knit a blanket for her. And the 234 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:25,070 mother has now just found her purpose in life, and she's 235 00:14:25,070 --> 00:14:29,930 regained the use of a left hand. Wow. So yeah, she's she and she 236 00:14:29,930 --> 00:14:32,030 puts it all down to knitting. 237 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,880 Mia Hobbs: So I guess my area of work is mainly in the mental 238 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,890 health and psychological benefits of knitting, but it 239 00:14:37,890 --> 00:14:41,400 sounds like you're really noticing also physical changes, 240 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:46,290 like the experience of pain. And yes, I guess rehabilitation 241 00:14:46,290 --> 00:14:46,920 physically. 242 00:14:47,980 --> 00:14:51,070 Betsan Corkhill: Yeah, yes. And it's, I mean, as you know, it's 243 00:14:51,070 --> 00:14:56,680 all intricately intertwined, isn't it? Yes. You know, if you 244 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,410 if you feel better mentally, you're more likely to go out and 245 00:14:59,410 --> 00:15:03,310 do something physically, aren't you and it's if you feel better 246 00:15:03,310 --> 00:15:05,860 physically, you feel better mentally. It's all in. It's all 247 00:15:05,860 --> 00:15:11,470 intertwined. So, yeah, you see the benefits across the, across 248 00:15:11,470 --> 00:15:15,190 the board. And I think doing something like creative like 249 00:15:15,190 --> 00:15:21,130 knitting in, in lockdown or in a situation of greater uncertainty 250 00:15:21,130 --> 00:15:25,840 and, you know, our fear systems were, were were used werent't 251 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:31,120 they to, to, to give information out about COVID. And because you 252 00:15:31,210 --> 00:15:34,750 couldn't get that information across by appealing to people's 253 00:15:34,780 --> 00:15:38,680 common sense, the only way they could get people to adhere to 254 00:15:38,890 --> 00:15:42,400 lockdowns was to terrify the life out of everybody, and work. 255 00:15:42,460 --> 00:15:46,720 And you know, and all those advertising, slogans were were 256 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,980 based on our fear systems and making us afraid to go out and 257 00:15:50,980 --> 00:15:55,540 touch things and be close to people. And you can't just 258 00:15:55,570 --> 00:15:59,500 switch those on and you know, haven't switched on for two 259 00:15:59,500 --> 00:16:02,740 years, or 18 months, two years and expect them then to switch 260 00:16:02,740 --> 00:16:06,400 off again, you know, people are still still last year there. And 261 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,310 I think having something creative, like knitting in that 262 00:16:09,310 --> 00:16:12,940 time, has been almost the opposite to that, to that level 263 00:16:12,940 --> 00:16:18,130 of fear. It's, it creates a sense of safety. It's colourful, 264 00:16:18,130 --> 00:16:21,940 it's constructive. It's sort of the All in all the things that 265 00:16:21,940 --> 00:16:26,590 are opposite to, to what we to what our minds werete nding to 266 00:16:26,590 --> 00:16:27,850 dwell on all the time. 267 00:16:28,110 --> 00:16:32,100 Mia Hobbs: Yeah. It would be really helpful if you've got a 268 00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:36,150 kind of summary of the all of the work you've done and the 269 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:40,440 things that you've noticed being therapeutic about knitting, have 270 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,740 you got a kind of a is there a way of synthesising? I think 271 00:16:43,740 --> 00:16:46,530 you've got it right? You've got a knitting equation on the 272 00:16:46,740 --> 00:16:49,590 Stitchlinks Website. Yeah, it'd be helpful to hear a little bit 273 00:16:49,590 --> 00:16:50,430 about that. 274 00:16:51,620 --> 00:16:56,690 Betsan Corkhill: So the knitting equation, I divided it up into 275 00:16:56,690 --> 00:17:00,200 three columns. So the first column are the movements, and I 276 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:05,630 think the movements are really important. And the second column 277 00:17:05,630 --> 00:17:09,980 is having an enriched environment. And then the third 278 00:17:09,980 --> 00:17:12,650 column is the benefits of the social engagement and in a 279 00:17:12,650 --> 00:17:17,720 group. So you can choose the the benefits of knitting are diff 280 00:17:17,900 --> 00:17:22,400 alone are different from knitting in a group. But the 281 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:27,740 movements, the movements and is portability. I think what sets 282 00:17:27,740 --> 00:17:33,020 knitting apart from other creative activities, yeah. So 283 00:17:33,020 --> 00:17:37,610 the movements are two-handed, bilateral, they cross the 284 00:17:37,610 --> 00:17:41,510 midline of the body, they're rhythmic, and they're repetitive 285 00:17:41,540 --> 00:17:45,380 and they become automatic, and all those have a certain number 286 00:17:45,650 --> 00:17:50,960 of benefits. But I think the one that's of most benefit is rhythm 287 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:57,500 of movements. Most of the stories will talk about the 288 00:17:57,500 --> 00:18:02,150 rhythm of movements and calming the mind down and there is some 289 00:18:02,150 --> 00:18:06,740 research now that your brain likes rhythmic movement or 290 00:18:06,740 --> 00:18:10,160 rhythmic activities, because it makes the brain feel safe. You 291 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,250 know, you'll you'll know that the the brain is always 292 00:18:13,250 --> 00:18:15,710 predicting what's around the corner, so it doesn't like 293 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,190 surprises. It doesn't like uncertainty last that's why a 294 00:18:19,190 --> 00:18:21,470 lot of people have struggled over the last 20 months your 295 00:18:21,470 --> 00:18:24,590 brain hates uncertainty and although uncertainty has always 296 00:18:24,590 --> 00:18:28,910 been there since the moment you were conceived. You know, you we 297 00:18:28,910 --> 00:18:31,910 used to live life with it in the background really was but over 298 00:18:31,910 --> 00:18:34,460 the last 20 months has been thrust to the forefront of our 299 00:18:34,460 --> 00:18:41,150 minds every single day. And rhythm is predictable. So it 300 00:18:41,150 --> 00:18:46,190 makes the brain feel safe. So anything that's rhythmic will, 301 00:18:46,220 --> 00:18:48,890 will help you know I've had people send stories about they 302 00:18:48,890 --> 00:18:53,690 find drumming, for example, has a very similar effect. Some 303 00:18:53,690 --> 00:18:56,480 people say baking bread, kneading bread has the same 304 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,030 effect playing a musical instrument. When you think about 305 00:18:59,030 --> 00:19:00,950 those things, like they're great. And I would encourage 306 00:19:00,950 --> 00:19:04,850 people to do a variety of things. But you can't take it 307 00:19:04,850 --> 00:19:08,480 with it with you on a bus, you can't do it on public transport. 308 00:19:08,690 --> 00:19:13,640 And that's the huge benefit of knitting is that you have a tool 309 00:19:13,730 --> 00:19:17,000 really effective tool for calming you down almost 310 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:22,040 instantaneously that you can carry with you and we we've had 311 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:26,180 quite a lot of success curing panic attacks for example. Lots 312 00:19:26,180 --> 00:19:29,930 of people can't go on public transport without it 313 00:19:29,930 --> 00:19:34,790 particularly now. And they you know, you can use it in the 314 00:19:34,790 --> 00:19:41,390 middle of the night. It doesn't disturb anybody else. So that's 315 00:19:41,390 --> 00:19:44,420 really what raises it up. We've we've really struggled apart 316 00:19:44,420 --> 00:19:50,210 from crochet. And then the only way the crochet differs is that 317 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:57,350 some styles of crochet are very one-handed. And we tend to I 318 00:19:57,350 --> 00:20:00,290 would encourage people to learn more two-handed techniques Have 319 00:20:00,410 --> 00:20:04,220 crochet because I think two-handed Nature is, is 320 00:20:04,220 --> 00:20:05,000 important. 321 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:06,950 Mia Hobbs: Yeah, I wondered if you could talk a little bit more 322 00:20:06,950 --> 00:20:09,230 about that, because you and I had a conversation before we 323 00:20:09,230 --> 00:20:12,950 started recording about a study that's in progress. It's using 324 00:20:12,950 --> 00:20:16,010 crochet and that it is different to knitting. And it's something 325 00:20:16,010 --> 00:20:18,590 somebody else has mentioned in one of my interviews about 326 00:20:19,130 --> 00:20:23,060 crocheting, but not quite finding the same therapeutic 327 00:20:23,060 --> 00:20:27,110 kind of feeling from crochet. And I'm interested in and I 328 00:20:27,110 --> 00:20:29,900 think that two-handed and the bilateral movements is something 329 00:20:29,900 --> 00:20:32,810 I think a lot of people won't know about. So I wondered if you 330 00:20:32,810 --> 00:20:35,660 could say a little bit more about the theories about why 331 00:20:35,660 --> 00:20:36,500 that's helpful. 332 00:20:37,050 --> 00:20:39,960 Betsan Corkhill: Yeah, I think, I mean, there's no research to 333 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,020 back this up specifically on knitting. But there is in other 334 00:20:43,020 --> 00:20:46,950 areas, if you're, if you're using, you know, everybody, most 335 00:20:46,950 --> 00:20:49,440 people know if using your left hand is controlled by the right 336 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,940 side of your brain, and vice versa. When you bring your hands 337 00:20:53,940 --> 00:20:58,470 together to form a complex pattern of movements, your brain 338 00:20:58,470 --> 00:21:01,860 has to work really quite hard to coordinate those hands, it 339 00:21:01,860 --> 00:21:05,970 occupies a lot of capacity in that moment. If you're crossing 340 00:21:05,970 --> 00:21:10,320 the midline, then you're going over into that sort of brain 341 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,620 space with your hands. And that's, that actually 342 00:21:13,830 --> 00:21:19,530 complicates things even even further. So that you know, there 343 00:21:19,530 --> 00:21:23,130 are quite a few people that say that, yes, maybe they find 344 00:21:23,130 --> 00:21:30,960 sewing, set rhythmic. But a two-handed movement seems to 345 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:35,400 induce a meditative state more readily. Because you're taking 346 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,060 up more capacity more of the brain is involved in that core 347 00:21:39,090 --> 00:21:46,830 inner coordination. So you know, there's some with with crochet, 348 00:21:47,130 --> 00:21:50,580 if you;re holding the crochet hook with one hand and just 349 00:21:50,580 --> 00:21:52,920 holding the yarn with the other hand and just picking up the 350 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:57,900 yarn, you're very much more or less you just using one hand. 351 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:04,590 There are techniques where you can feed the yarn with your with 352 00:22:05,250 --> 00:22:08,970 the yarn holding hands so that you are getting this more 353 00:22:08,970 --> 00:22:12,780 coordinated pattern of movements. That's just a theory 354 00:22:12,780 --> 00:22:14,910 of mine. But I think it's you know, if you get if you're 355 00:22:14,910 --> 00:22:16,890 getting down to the real details, you have to look at 356 00:22:16,890 --> 00:22:17,640 things like that. 357 00:22:18,350 --> 00:22:23,090 Mia Hobbs: I was thinking about EMDR. Yeah, so eye movement, 358 00:22:23,090 --> 00:22:25,970 desensitisation reprocessing, which is something used in 359 00:22:25,970 --> 00:22:28,700 trauma therapy by psychologists, it's not something I'm 360 00:22:28,700 --> 00:22:31,520 specifically trained in, but lots of my colleagues are, and 361 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:37,430 that uses eye movements and sometimes tapping and crosses 362 00:22:37,430 --> 00:22:40,850 the midline of the body. And the idea is that those repetitive 363 00:22:40,910 --> 00:22:44,630 movements help with re processing a traumatic memory. 364 00:22:44,630 --> 00:22:45,860 So I think its a really interesting link 365 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,380 Betsan Corkhill: I think there is there is discussion going on 366 00:22:49,380 --> 00:22:51,960 with whether the mechanisms behind what's going on with 367 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:57,330 knitting, very similar to EMDR. And I've certainly worked with 368 00:22:57,330 --> 00:23:01,200 people suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and 369 00:23:01,230 --> 00:23:05,580 their incidence of flashbacks and the severity of the 370 00:23:05,580 --> 00:23:09,600 flashbacks that has improved significantly with knitting. In 371 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,410 fact, knitting was a the treatment of choice for soldiers 372 00:23:13,410 --> 00:23:18,660 after World War One for shellshock. Which, which we now 373 00:23:18,660 --> 00:23:24,780 know as post traumatic stress they used knitting. So yeah, the 374 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,480 there is that rhythmic, repetitive movement that 375 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,750 crosses the midline and to teachers of young children will 376 00:23:30,750 --> 00:23:34,290 say they do something called Brain gym, which is a series of 377 00:23:34,290 --> 00:23:38,550 movements that cross the midline of the body to get the brain, 378 00:23:38,610 --> 00:23:44,340 awake in the mornings. And again, there's a there's a, you 379 00:23:44,340 --> 00:23:48,210 know, focus on crossing that midline. The other thing I would 380 00:23:48,210 --> 00:23:52,590 say about crochet is that if you holding a hook and you have a 381 00:23:52,590 --> 00:23:55,470 sort of like a pincer grip on the hook, and you're, you're 382 00:23:55,470 --> 00:23:59,100 turning your hand all the time that people that are susceptible 383 00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:03,750 to hand and wrist pain, get more real hand and wrist pain, so 384 00:24:03,750 --> 00:24:07,950 need to pace need to pace crochet more than they pace. 385 00:24:08,130 --> 00:24:10,950 Knitting. Yeah, so that's the other. That's the other issue if 386 00:24:10,950 --> 00:24:13,920 you if you have a tendency towards hand and wrist pain to 387 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,160 be a little bit more careful there. But I would encourage 388 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,960 people to do both this. You know, the great as you know that 389 00:24:22,350 --> 00:24:25,320 variety is good for the brain, so you don't want well, 390 00:24:25,350 --> 00:24:28,440 therapeutic knitting is not about encouraging people to sit 391 00:24:28,470 --> 00:24:32,310 and knit all day. It's about using it as a tool to improve 392 00:24:32,310 --> 00:24:37,290 your well being. It's about not sitting for more than about 20 393 00:24:37,290 --> 00:24:39,900 minutes. It's about getting up and moving around. That's all 394 00:24:39,900 --> 00:24:44,910 part of that therapeutic side, getting a circulation going and 395 00:24:44,910 --> 00:24:49,500 using it as part of a whole sort of wellbeing toolbox. Really? 396 00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:49,560 Yeah. 397 00:24:50,380 --> 00:24:53,260 Mia Hobbs: Have you had much? I don't know. I'm wondering about 398 00:24:53,260 --> 00:24:56,710 what the reception was from academics when you're applying 399 00:24:56,710 --> 00:25:00,580 for research funding or for people who were suggested to 400 00:25:00,580 --> 00:25:04,510 come to a knitting group for pain management, like how have 401 00:25:04,510 --> 00:25:07,810 you found that has been received by people who might not be 402 00:25:07,810 --> 00:25:08,350 knitters. 403 00:25:08,620 --> 00:25:12,040 Betsan Corkhill: In the beginning. Scientists 404 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:17,800 researchers laughed and laughed. And I don't know if you know, 405 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,810 but I had to call knitting something different in the 406 00:25:19,810 --> 00:25:20,320 beginning. 407 00:25:20,650 --> 00:25:22,540 Mia Hobbs: I think I read that in your book that you had to 408 00:25:22,540 --> 00:25:23,140 rebrand it. 409 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,510 Betsan Corkhill: Yeah. Had to call it a bilateral rhythmic 410 00:25:25,510 --> 00:25:26,890 psychosocial intervention. 411 00:25:28,990 --> 00:25:29,620 Mia Hobbs: And that worked? 412 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,850 Betsan Corkhill: it did it did it? Yeah, it's really weird. 413 00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:40,310 There is a oh ay would those who are saying there's almost a fear 414 00:25:40,370 --> 00:25:44,450 of using the word knitting in some sort of ways or a fear of 415 00:25:44,450 --> 00:25:50,300 being seen as a knitter? It's, it's bizarre. This is it's all 416 00:25:50,330 --> 00:25:53,000 it's a fear of the because people see it as something 417 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,830 that's been that's done by women. It's soft. It's, you 418 00:25:57,830 --> 00:26:00,950 know, it's the opposite to yours to science really soft. It's 419 00:26:00,950 --> 00:26:06,740 fluffy, done by people think it's done by older women or your 420 00:26:06,740 --> 00:26:12,170 granny in and there's a lot of that thinking that's going on, 421 00:26:12,470 --> 00:26:18,170 underneath what people think of knitting. Yeah. And soon as I 422 00:26:18,170 --> 00:26:20,930 started to argue, from the scientific perspective, you 423 00:26:20,930 --> 00:26:23,630 know, I'd be in a conference and people will say, say to me a, 424 00:26:23,630 --> 00:26:27,830 what do you do, then I say, Well, if I do I use the K word 425 00:26:27,830 --> 00:26:37,400 or not. And if I use the K word, people would in a and say, you 426 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:42,530 know, we're using knitting to treat chronic pain. They would 427 00:26:42,530 --> 00:26:46,790 laugh, and you could see their gaze going elsewhere and say, 428 00:26:46,790 --> 00:26:50,120 How am I going to get away from this man woman? I was treated a 429 00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:53,510 bit like a knitting evangelist who wanted to spread the word 430 00:26:53,510 --> 00:26:58,010 knitting, whereas ironically, at that time, I wasn't, I wouldn't 431 00:26:58,010 --> 00:27:01,160 have called myself a knitter. Okay. I had not got back into 432 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:07,580 it, then. Yeah. But if I said, we're using a bilateral rhythmic 433 00:27:07,580 --> 00:27:11,270 psychosocial intervention, they would say, well, that's 434 00:27:11,270 --> 00:27:13,760 interesting. And what are you doing? How are you doing that 435 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,400 then? And that would open that would open the door where we're 436 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,690 using knitting, as you know, so it wasn't? Yeah, it wasn't seen 437 00:27:20,690 --> 00:27:21,470 as knitting then. 438 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,680 Mia Hobbs: That's so interesting. It took you a while 439 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,210 to overcome that stigma? 440 00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:29,930 Betsan Corkhill: Yes. Yeah. And we I know, we've had funding 441 00:27:29,930 --> 00:27:33,920 proposals turned down without them being read, because the 442 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,450 word knitting has been in the title. 443 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,430 Mia Hobbs: So has it changed at all? Since you still, you said 444 00:27:40,430 --> 00:27:42,020 started in 2005? 445 00:27:42,380 --> 00:27:46,370 Betsan Corkhill: Yeah, it has changed. I'm asked to speak 446 00:27:46,370 --> 00:27:51,110 quite regularly now to groups of doctors. Before COVID, we had a 447 00:27:51,110 --> 00:27:56,060 number of GP clinics and hospitals who were thinking of 448 00:27:56,060 --> 00:27:59,300 starting up therapeutic knitting groups obviously, can't couldn't 449 00:27:59,300 --> 00:28:06,740 do that in person now. But it's, it's people don't laugh anymore. 450 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,580 And also, I have a lot more confidence in it as well, which 451 00:28:13,580 --> 00:28:17,480 makes difference. Because it was a bit it was, it was quite 452 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,420 challenging to me personally, you know, if you have somebody 453 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:25,220 just laugh at you Sure. When you think when you're thinking, 454 00:28:25,430 --> 00:28:26,330 right, okay. 455 00:28:27,020 --> 00:28:30,230 Mia Hobbs: Yeah, I think it took me a while to feel confident 456 00:28:30,230 --> 00:28:34,490 enough to do that. I think, you know, I left my NHS job in 2017, 457 00:28:34,490 --> 00:28:38,840 and went into private practice. And as I was leaving my NHS 458 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,650 team, I was known as the knitter there. And I'd organised a few, 459 00:28:42,830 --> 00:28:45,860 you know, collaborative projects where we knitted squares, and I 460 00:28:45,860 --> 00:28:48,590 put them together to make blankets for people's babies. 461 00:28:48,620 --> 00:28:52,250 And I said, you know, I'd really like to run therapeutic knitting 462 00:28:52,250 --> 00:28:56,000 groups. And it was slightly kind of taken as a bit of a joke. And 463 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,570 I think it's taken me until this year, really to think there 464 00:28:59,570 --> 00:29:02,240 actually, there is enough evidence behind the idea of 465 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,000 running therapeutic knitting groups and starting to use it 466 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,050 more in my work without feeling worried about how people will 467 00:29:09,380 --> 00:29:12,260 respond. And I think I've also taken some of the principles of 468 00:29:12,260 --> 00:29:15,590 therapeutic knitting and applied to a bit flexibly to people who 469 00:29:15,590 --> 00:29:19,190 were say, would say no to knitting, but they're using some 470 00:29:19,220 --> 00:29:22,610 similar skills to create circut boards or doing something 471 00:29:22,610 --> 00:29:25,850 slightly different, but getting some of the same benefits in 472 00:29:26,030 --> 00:29:28,130 whatever way feels accessible for them. Yeah, 473 00:29:28,300 --> 00:29:31,270 Betsan Corkhill: absolutely. I mean, I was known by one GP 474 00:29:31,270 --> 00:29:37,990 practice as that mad knitting woman. And, and even now I can 475 00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:42,040 go to a conference and introduced to somebody and 476 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,400 they'll say, Oh, so you're that knitting woman you are not as, 477 00:29:46,390 --> 00:29:51,280 as anything else apart from that knitting woman, but now it's not 478 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,010 done so in such a derogatory way. 479 00:29:56,490 --> 00:29:58,980 Mia Hobbs: Maybe people are starting to see a bit more of 480 00:29:58,980 --> 00:30:02,280 the benefits. I certainly feel it, for example, conferences 481 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,790 just before COVID, there was more of an idea about, it's okay 482 00:30:05,790 --> 00:30:08,700 to doodle, or it's okay to do something if it helps you to 483 00:30:08,700 --> 00:30:11,790 focus on sitting still for six hours and listening to a 484 00:30:11,790 --> 00:30:14,430 training course, which actually, we as humans are not really 485 00:30:14,460 --> 00:30:15,360 designed to do. 486 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,540 Betsan Corkhill: Yeah. And I think there's a lot, I think, 487 00:30:18,990 --> 00:30:23,400 actually COVID has helped bizarrely in some way, in that 488 00:30:23,790 --> 00:30:30,360 people are a lot more accepting of what we would call mind body 489 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:38,490 therapies as well. And there's now a lot of recognition in you 490 00:30:38,490 --> 00:30:45,060 know, needing a bottom up as well as a top down approach. And 491 00:30:45,090 --> 00:30:49,170 the benefits of that, and, you know, knitting is, is it, you 492 00:30:49,170 --> 00:30:52,290 know, changes the input into the brain but it, also induces that 493 00:30:52,290 --> 00:30:55,560 level of calm. So you get that top down, calm and the bottom 494 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,880 up, rhythm coming in. And, and there's more recognition 495 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,810 scientifically now of, of of that. 496 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,500 Mia Hobbs: And I wonder whether actually COVID has forced us all 497 00:31:07,500 --> 00:31:11,850 to think about what do I need in order to be happy and healthy? 498 00:31:11,850 --> 00:31:16,230 Like, what do I get from my mind and my body? Yeah, to be able to 499 00:31:16,230 --> 00:31:20,280 function? Well, as a human? Yes. A lot of things were thrown up 500 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:20,760 in the air. 501 00:31:21,210 --> 00:31:24,810 Betsan Corkhill: Yeah. It's also alerted people to your Well, 502 00:31:24,810 --> 00:31:27,600 yes, I am connected to the natural world as well. And it's 503 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,170 all you know, it's all tied in. It's not. You can't solve 504 00:31:31,170 --> 00:31:34,110 everything with with a pill. It's all interrelated. It's all 505 00:31:34,110 --> 00:31:35,010 intertwined. 506 00:31:36,990 --> 00:31:39,420 Mia Hobbs: And one of the questions I always ask in the 507 00:31:39,420 --> 00:31:43,650 podcast is whether someone can talk about a significant 508 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,650 knitting project for them. So that could be one of your 509 00:31:46,650 --> 00:31:49,770 projects, it could be one that's come up in as part of your work. 510 00:31:50,790 --> 00:31:52,830 Betsan Corkhill: Actually. The the blanket that's behind me 511 00:31:52,830 --> 00:31:53,160 there. 512 00:31:53,340 --> 00:31:55,740 Mia Hobbs: Yeah, that's beautiful. I was noticing that. 513 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,590 Betsan Corkhill: It's when I did. It's my comfort blanket for 514 00:31:58,590 --> 00:31:59,640 when my mother died. 515 00:32:00,030 --> 00:32:02,010 Mia Hobbs: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. 516 00:32:02,010 --> 00:32:04,980 Betsan Corkhill: That was it. It was while it was eight years ago 517 00:32:04,980 --> 00:32:09,120 now. But it's pretty, it was pretty traumatic at the time. 518 00:32:09,540 --> 00:32:15,120 And as it happened, my one of my best friends husband, died in 519 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:20,010 the same week in traumatic in a traumatic way. And we both 520 00:32:20,010 --> 00:32:25,950 belong to the same knitting group. So we both started, we 521 00:32:25,950 --> 00:32:30,990 sat with each other. And I think in those times, you, you don't 522 00:32:31,020 --> 00:32:33,450 want to talk you you know, people, when people come around, 523 00:32:33,450 --> 00:32:36,600 they feel the need to talk when you don't want to talk. So we 524 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,150 just sat with each other in silence and knitted those 525 00:32:39,150 --> 00:32:39,960 blankets, 526 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:41,430 Mia Hobbs: did you knit the same blanket? 527 00:32:42,090 --> 00:32:43,890 Betsan Corkhill: She knitted a slightly different pattern. But 528 00:32:43,890 --> 00:32:47,070 yeah, she was just going in straight lines. And that's all 529 00:32:47,070 --> 00:32:53,340 we needed. And mine was more or less straight lines. But members 530 00:32:53,340 --> 00:32:56,640 from the knitting group would knock on the door, bring some 531 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,360 cake and sit, just sit down and knit with us and not say 532 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,910 anything. And we would, you know, and and they would come 533 00:33:02,910 --> 00:33:05,700 and go and supported us. So I think that was it actually 534 00:33:05,700 --> 00:33:10,530 turned into quite a special time. And you know, we both have 535 00:33:10,530 --> 00:33:13,320 that we both have those blankets now. Yeah. 536 00:33:14,130 --> 00:33:17,760 Mia Hobbs: Yeah. Does it feel? Does it feel comforting? Now? 537 00:33:17,790 --> 00:33:20,910 Yes. to have the blanket to remember time? 538 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,760 Betsan Corkhill: Yeah. But it also feels comforting to know 539 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:29,370 that that helped me deal with processing the trauma of it all. 540 00:33:30,660 --> 00:33:35,280 And it really did. Yeah. And I think without it, perhaps I 541 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,610 would have had some post traumatic flashbacks, because I 542 00:33:38,610 --> 00:33:42,360 was sort of before, you know, sort of, immediately after the 543 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:47,250 event, I was having those. And they certainly helped to calm 544 00:33:47,250 --> 00:33:49,350 those down. So yes, I would say that's, 545 00:33:50,470 --> 00:33:52,120 Mia Hobbs: so that's a really special blanket. 546 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,060 Betsan Corkhill: Yes, yeah. 547 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:56,790 Mia Hobbs: And I do think that's a really powerful thing about 548 00:33:56,790 --> 00:34:00,060 knitting that you can get through something really hard 549 00:34:00,060 --> 00:34:03,750 and have something that is a very physical tangible reminder. 550 00:34:04,170 --> 00:34:08,670 But also in a comforting way, often of overcoming or living 551 00:34:08,670 --> 00:34:11,370 through surviving something that was difficult. 552 00:34:12,020 --> 00:34:15,260 Betsan Corkhill: Yeah, I think a blanket is a nice is a nice 553 00:34:15,260 --> 00:34:19,850 project to do in that kind of thing because it because it 554 00:34:19,850 --> 00:34:23,090 keeps you warm as you're doing it sort of wraps around you as 555 00:34:23,090 --> 00:34:25,700 you as you're making it. So I think it's a really nice 556 00:34:25,700 --> 00:34:32,090 project, mindless project to do while you and I think, you know, 557 00:34:32,090 --> 00:34:36,830 one of the things that came out in our in my observations of 558 00:34:36,830 --> 00:34:41,060 doing this work is that people don't get an opportunity to just 559 00:34:41,060 --> 00:34:46,010 be with other people without feeling the need to participate 560 00:34:46,010 --> 00:34:50,930 or talk very much anymore. i It was my mother who, who actually 561 00:34:53,240 --> 00:34:57,110 brought up when I was visiting in when I was staying with her. 562 00:34:57,530 --> 00:35:02,000 Towards the end of her life. She said, it's so nice to have you 563 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,150 here in the evening because I don't feel I have to talk, I can 564 00:35:05,150 --> 00:35:09,110 just be with somebody else. So whereas I got visitors, she had 565 00:35:09,170 --> 00:35:12,830 used to have visitors all the time, who pop in for, they pop 566 00:35:12,830 --> 00:35:17,750 in for a chat and feel they had to make conversation. And she 567 00:35:17,750 --> 00:35:19,790 said, I don't want to make conversation all the time, I 568 00:35:19,790 --> 00:35:24,380 just want to sit and be. So what actually, that's what knitting 569 00:35:24,380 --> 00:35:27,500 allows, even in a knitting group, you go into a group and 570 00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:30,320 sit in the group, but you can sit and just be 571 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,010 Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And I found that really helpful for people 572 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,150 who don't find social situations so easy that there's a shared 573 00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:41,480 focus, there's a there's a topic of conversation if you want one. 574 00:35:41,750 --> 00:35:45,110 But also there isn't any requirement to talk that you 575 00:35:45,110 --> 00:35:48,800 could just be there with other people knitting, and not say 576 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,350 anything at all. And that wouldn't be considered unusual 577 00:35:51,350 --> 00:35:52,520 or rude, or 578 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,990 Betsan Corkhill: I think I think, I think that's one of the 579 00:35:55,990 --> 00:35:58,150 most important aspects of a group of particularly 580 00:35:58,150 --> 00:36:04,510 therapeutic group. Because it people come along, even if 581 00:36:04,510 --> 00:36:06,550 they're not, even if they're feeling particularly vulnerable 582 00:36:06,550 --> 00:36:09,250 on that day, because they know they don't have to participate. 583 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:14,260 All the people who used to come to my pain knitting group, 584 00:36:14,860 --> 00:36:17,920 wouldn't have gone to a group if it wasn't for knitting, because 585 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,040 every other group would require you to introduce yourself to say 586 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:26,590 what you do, you know, and and require you to to take part. But 587 00:36:27,130 --> 00:36:31,360 it's, you know, what I one of the things we identified was 588 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,320 that knitting is one of the few activities that you can have eye 589 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,910 contact or not. Yeah, and the or not, it was really important, 590 00:36:39,910 --> 00:36:42,760 because if you're not feeling like participating, you put it 591 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,870 perfectly acceptable to just sit and knit quietly. And just as 592 00:36:46,870 --> 00:36:50,440 therapeutic to just sit and knit quietly as it is to join in with 593 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:55,450 the chat. Yeah. And that's what makes it so, so valuable as a 594 00:36:55,450 --> 00:36:59,140 therapeutic tool for a group. 595 00:36:59,330 --> 00:37:01,520 Mia Hobbs: Yeah, yeah, I've definitely spoken to people 596 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,590 don't always, you know, they've told me they don't find eye 597 00:37:03,590 --> 00:37:08,300 contact easy, or sometimes it feels challenging. And knitting 598 00:37:08,300 --> 00:37:12,170 is one of the things that has helped them to be in group 599 00:37:12,170 --> 00:37:15,140 spaces, because it just isn't required in the same way it's 600 00:37:15,140 --> 00:37:18,380 perfect. You know, lots of people are just looking down at 601 00:37:18,380 --> 00:37:22,130 their knitting, or they look up, you know, fleetingly and that's 602 00:37:22,130 --> 00:37:22,610 fine. 603 00:37:22,130 --> 00:37:24,423 Betsan Corkhill: Yes. And there's always a topic of 604 00:37:24,490 --> 00:37:28,604 conversation. Now you can say, Well, I would really like that 605 00:37:28,671 --> 00:37:32,920 colour, or, you know, I've done this what pattern you're doing. 606 00:37:32,988 --> 00:37:37,304 So you don't have to hunt for a topic of conversation, either. I 607 00:37:37,371 --> 00:37:41,283 think I don't know whether you found but what I found when 608 00:37:41,350 --> 00:37:45,532 running knitting groups is that conversation tends to get much 609 00:37:45,599 --> 00:37:49,781 deeper and more intimate more quickly. And people find it easy 610 00:37:49,848 --> 00:37:53,760 to talk when they knit. And I think that's something to do 611 00:37:53,827 --> 00:37:57,604 with the automatic nature of movements. And I wasn't, at 612 00:37:57,671 --> 00:38:01,853 first I wasn't, I didn't really focus on the automatic nature. 613 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,966 But now I think that this is really quite important, because 614 00:38:06,034 --> 00:38:10,350 I think if you give the brain a background automatic task to do, 615 00:38:10,418 --> 00:38:14,532 then it's somehow and some of the stories say this, actually, 616 00:38:14,599 --> 00:38:18,578 that somehow frees up the rest of the mind, the brain to do 617 00:38:18,645 --> 00:38:22,287 other things. It occupies the brain or at a low level, 618 00:38:22,355 --> 00:38:26,536 enabling them to talk to talk. And, you know, very, very, I've 619 00:38:26,604 --> 00:38:30,650 lost count to the number of times the people have said to me 620 00:38:30,717 --> 00:38:35,101 while we're sitting and knitting together. I haven't told anybody 621 00:38:35,169 --> 00:38:38,878 this before. Yeah. And it's usually a pretty horrendous 622 00:38:38,945 --> 00:38:43,127 story of some of some sort of trauma that they've kept in that 623 00:38:43,194 --> 00:38:45,690 they haven't felt able to talk about. 624 00:38:47,100 --> 00:38:49,560 Mia Hobbs: I wonder whether the eye contact helps with that as 625 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,930 well. Because certainly some of the things that I work a lot 626 00:38:51,930 --> 00:38:55,290 with teenagers and their families, and I find that 627 00:38:55,290 --> 00:38:58,470 parents of teenagers often say, Well, they don't really open up 628 00:38:58,470 --> 00:39:02,310 to me, unless we happen to be in the car driving somewhere. And I 629 00:39:02,310 --> 00:39:06,210 guess driving is another automatic kind of process, but 630 00:39:06,210 --> 00:39:10,260 also, from the teenagers perspective, who's probably not 631 00:39:10,260 --> 00:39:13,200 doing the driving, they're sitting not having to make eye 632 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,010 contact or have an intense we're sitting down to have a chat type 633 00:39:17,010 --> 00:39:22,170 conversation. And maybe that's feels a bit safer to then start 634 00:39:22,170 --> 00:39:24,660 to talk about something that might be quite difficult. 635 00:39:25,260 --> 00:39:27,690 Betsan Corkhill: Yes, I think I mean, I think it's that feeling 636 00:39:27,690 --> 00:39:32,520 of safety, that's the important you get a sort of it does. When 637 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,660 you're knitting you do get a sense of safety of being safe, 638 00:39:36,870 --> 00:39:40,830 being safe in that moment. And again, I think that's down to 639 00:39:40,830 --> 00:39:46,440 the down to the movements that those rhythmic movements and 640 00:39:46,470 --> 00:39:49,980 yeah, you feel safer to divulge that information. 641 00:39:52,020 --> 00:39:56,310 Mia Hobbs: That's so interesting. I always end the 642 00:39:56,310 --> 00:40:00,060 podcast with with asking what's the greatest gift that you 643 00:40:00,060 --> 00:40:02,550 You've been given by knitting that's helped helped you in the 644 00:40:02,550 --> 00:40:05,310 rest of your life. I don't know what you what your ideas are 645 00:40:05,310 --> 00:40:06,300 about that Betsan. 646 00:40:07,020 --> 00:40:10,350 Betsan Corkhill: I think for me, it's set me on a completely 647 00:40:10,350 --> 00:40:11,670 different path in life. 648 00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:14,760 Mia Hobbs: In terms of your career. Yeah, yeah. 649 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,890 Betsan Corkhill: And it's got me thinking outside the box because 650 00:40:18,890 --> 00:40:22,130 you know, I was a physio and as a physio we were trained in a 651 00:40:22,130 --> 00:40:26,870 very biomechanical way. And but I'm completely sort of away from 652 00:40:26,870 --> 00:40:31,250 that now. And it's It's opened my ideas up to a whole range of 653 00:40:31,250 --> 00:40:37,520 issues. I'm I do a lot of work now in the world of, of long 654 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:42,830 term pain with people long term pain. I've become a Tai Chi 655 00:40:42,830 --> 00:40:47,390 teacher as a result of knitting, which sounds strange, but there 656 00:40:47,390 --> 00:40:50,660 are many similarities. It's sort of rhythmic, rhythmic movement. 657 00:40:50,660 --> 00:40:56,840 It's so yeah, so it's completely changed the course of my life. 658 00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:57,260 Really? 659 00:40:58,490 --> 00:41:03,050 Mia Hobbs: Wow. So that's a big thing. Yeah, yeah, sure. I'm 660 00:41:03,050 --> 00:41:05,870 sure there'll be loads of people who want to hear more about your 661 00:41:05,870 --> 00:41:09,710 work about the research and therapeutic knitting in general, 662 00:41:09,710 --> 00:41:13,130 how can they find out more about your work or get in touch with 663 00:41:13,130 --> 00:41:13,430 you? 664 00:41:14,630 --> 00:41:16,220 Betsan Corkhill: Well, my through the websites 665 00:41:16,550 --> 00:41:19,790 stitchlinks.com, but also my book knit for health and 666 00:41:19,790 --> 00:41:24,800 wellness, how to knit a flexible mind, has got a lot of advice 667 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:29,000 about therapeutic knitting and history of it. And I'm quite 668 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:34,190 happy for people to email me Betsan@Stitchlinks.com. Okay. 669 00:41:35,270 --> 00:41:39,980 Yeah. So happy for anybody to contact me. 670 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,890 Mia Hobbs: Lovely. I mean, Betson it's been an absolute 671 00:41:42,890 --> 00:41:46,370 pleasure to hear all about your experiences. It's been so 672 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,760 interesting. And thank you so much for agreeing to come on the 673 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:50,390 podcast. 674 00:41:50,810 --> 00:41:52,190 Betsan Corkhill: Thank you. I've really enjoyed it. 675 00:41:57,050 --> 00:41:58,640 Mia Hobbs: Thank you for listening to the Why I Knit 676 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,220 podcast. If you'd like to find out more about therapeutic 677 00:42:01,220 --> 00:42:03,140 knitting you can follow me on Instagram 678 00:42:03,470 --> 00:42:07,010 @knittingistherapeutic. Or check out my website therapeutic 679 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:11,030 knitting.org. To be notified when a new podcast is released. 680 00:42:11,030 --> 00:42:13,280 Please subscribe on your podcast app.