Mia Hobbs: Hello, and welcome to the Why I Knit podcast. My name
is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical psychologist who's
passionate about knitting and its benefits for our mental
health. Each week on the podcast, I interview a different
knitter about why they knit and how it benefits their mental
well being. This week on the podcast, I'm talking to Betsan
Corkhill. Betson is a former physiotherapist and lifestyle
coach. She's an expert in therapeutic knitting, and also
the author of Knit for Health and Wellness. You can find links
to the Stitch links Website and any of the yarns and patterns we
discuss in the show notes.
Hi Betsan welcome to the podcast.
Betsan Corkhill: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Mia Hobbs: It's a pleasure. I'm really pleased to be able to
talk to the kind of one of the founders of therapeutic
knitting. I would love to start with asking where your story
with knitting began.
Betsan Corkhill: Well, my mother told me to knit when I was
seven. I can remember being intensely frustrated at the time
because I immediately wanted a jumper. So I didn't then knit
for quite some time. And it actually until I was expecting
my first child, and then I knitted quite a few things, and
I knitted the christening shawl. And then I had another big gap.
And I went back to it when I started this project, the
research into the meditative creative and social benefits of
knitting because I because I'm really firm believer in
practising what I preach, and now I do it more or less every
day.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And did the project come about first rather
than you weren't knitting at the time? You started because of the
project?
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a it's quite a long,
it's, it's, I think it's quite an interesting story, how I got
into it, actually, because I was a I was working as a
physiotherapist, a community physiotherapist, and I was asked
by GPs to go into people's homes for people who weren't able to
get to the physiotherapy department for some reason. So
it could be a whole range of reasons across a whole range of
age groups. And I soon realised that, you know, call her Mrs.
Smith, Mrs. Smith wasn't getting out of her chair, because she
had no reason to get out of her chair, she had absolutely
nothing in the day, no purpose, nothing she was successful at.
And I wasn't at that you know, the system didn't allow me to,
to, to give the time and the treatment that that person
needed. And I was allowed to go in three times maybe to change
somebody's whole lifestyle. So I got really frustrated and I, I
left and I became a freelance production editor for a range
magazines, and ended up ended up on a range of craft and across
the whole, the whole craft portfolio. And I did a three,
six month stint on the craft portfolio, one of my jobs was to
sort the letters pages. And that entailed reading all the letters
that came into the office every day, and they literally got
sacks full of letters every day. And I realised that most of them
are talking about the therapeutic benefit of their
craft, but particularly knitting. And I mentioned it to
the editor of one of the knitting magazines? And she
said, Oh, yes, I we know that something really important here.
We really don't know what it what it is. We've got a filing
cabinet full of letters there. Would you like to go read them?
And they were literally 1000s of letters because they just run a
competition about what is it you find, you know, beneficial about
knitting. And it was the first time that somebody with a
medical background had read these letters. And it was really
striking. They were really profound life stories. You know,
I remember I remember very vividly the first letter I
picked up was from a 14 year old girl who had written I don't
have to take my pain medication when I knit, I am often in
hospital and I don't so I don't have to take that medication
when I knit. It helps me and the second was from a lady who tried
to commit suicide and her husband had taken her in a
simple knitting project into hospital out of desperation,
really to try and get her interested in something. And she
said now, now I look forward to my next project. And I look
forward to tomorrow. And it changed her life. So there were
those kinds of profound stories and I thought wow there's
something really important here
Mia Hobbs: that gave me goosebumps to hear that. Yeah.
And to think they were sitting in a filing cabinet until you
came along.
Betsan Corkhill: yes. And so my first thought was, I wonder if
this wonder if this could help Mrs. Smith who sits in her
armchair said to, you know, in our armchair to enable her to be
successful at something too. So using it as a springboard to, to
get interested in the world in the world, you know, open up the
world and get interested in doing other things. And then it
then as more I started to research it, because I wanted to
know, I think the striking things is there were large
numbers of people saying very, very similar things, as I'm sure
you've discovered. And I wanted to know, why that was happening,
what was happening, and if there was any science behind it,
because you know, there had to be something happening within
them biologically and chemically, for them to feel
better. And so I wanted to know, what, what what was happening.
So that's how it started. And the more I researched more, I
realised how you know how important it was. So then I
started thinking about developing the idea of
therapeutic knitting which, and for me, I would, I would
describe therapeutic knitting as a combination of knitting and
knowledge. So enhancing that, you know, knitting has its
benefits, but you can learn how to enhance those benefits. And
you can have knowledge about how to do that. But also, you know,
people who are fit and well can do that. But also, if you've got
a medical condition, you can learn about that condition and
learn how to use knitting to manage the symptoms, further
enhance those benefits. So that's where that's where it all
started. So I approached the pain clinic here in Bath, and
asked if they'd be interested in setting up a group. I didn't
hear back from them for about six months. So I thought, well,
you know, that's it. And then six months later, I said, well,
Yeah. Still in there somewhere.
they said, Yeah, we'd be quite interested. And that was back in
2006. So I started up, I started a therapeutic knitting group in
a pain clinic. And that really got me interested in the subject
of pain. So since then, I've specialised in helping working
with people with long term pain. And I thought well, ooh help i'm
, you know how I'm gonna have to run the knitting group. In two
weeks time, I better get back to knitting. Learning how to knit
again. Of course, once you've learned to you never forget it.
Yes. So then I got back to doing it myself. I do. I do really
believe in practising what I preach. I don't think you can
advise people to do things if you're not doing it yourself.
Really?
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. So is that do you keep doing it in your
personal life for yourself?
Betsan Corkhill: Yes, yes. Yeah.
Mia Hobbs: And do you feel like you've noticed those therapeutic
benefits even on any level for you for your life? Are there
times when you feel like you turn to the knitting more?
Betsan Corkhill: Oh, yes, absolutely. It's, it's, you
know, I use it as a as a way of managing stress on more or less
daily basis and bringing that especially recently, I think
people have needed to keep those those you know, sort of stress
systems. rebalance them because it's been stressful. In the last
20 months for everybody,
Mia Hobbs: yeah, during COVID
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah, so I think it's become more important
for people to incorporate those things into into their daily
lives.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, I have to say I also felt really lucky to have a
hobby, something I love doing that I could still do in COVID
that it wasn't something you know, my main hobby was
something that wasn't allowed because of restrictions. Yeah.
Yeah. Are there particular things you enjoy knitting at the
moment?
Betsan Corkhill: Well, I have a I have different projects going
and I've always advised people to have a range of different
projects on the go according to the mood they're in on the day
but but also maybe according to mood they would like to move
themselves into because you go into a different mind state with
with whatever project you're on. So I have I will have an easy
one and or a more or a more challenging one on the go and my
focus has changed actually you know from from when I was a
child at seven to becoming really frustrated not being able
to get an end product now it's more it's changed in that I can
I can knit something that will take a year to finish and and be
quite happy with that and just do it for the process. Yeah, not
for not for that end product. The end product when it comes is
extra specially nice. I spent the whole of the first lockdown
knitting a I knitted we had our first grandchild arrived in the
first lock bit very beginning of the First lockdown
Mia Hobbs: congratulations
Betsan Corkhill: we weren't allowed to see him. Oh, because
they live quite a quite they live three hour drive away. So I
decided right I'll knit a cot blanket as a as a hug from us
because we couldn't give him a physical hug. And our daughter
who's living with us at the time said, Oh, I love that, would you
make me one only I want to double bed size. So I spent the
whole of the first lockdown knitting this double bed. Very
easy sort of garter stitch, but with a slightly zigzag, you
know, sort of pattern in it. And it was wonderful. That's what
kept me sane, I think in those first really anxious months,
when everything was still very unknown. And, yeah, so that was
her Christmas, one of her Christmas presents last year.
Mia Hobbs: I guess she's got that to look back on. And you
can always associate that blanket, I guess with, you know,
getting through that really difficult period of time. Yeah.
Does it matter to you what the stitch pattern is? Or like more
in the process? Does that make a difference or not particularly
Betsan Corkhill: Not really, it needs to be one that I can, if I
want something easy and rhythmic like that, it needs to be
something that I can, my brain can remember without really
referring to a pattern all the time. So yeah, but I but I, I
have, you know, sort of a done a lace shawl. Well not done. I'm
doing a lace shawl and another and another large sort of
shawls, scarf stroke shawl pattern. It's got a few
different complicated lines in it. You know, in between, I'm
rhythmically away, and then suddenly I come on this line
write I have to pay attention now. So that's a nice one.
Because it takes it takes me about an hour to do a row
Mia Hobbs: Oh, wow. It's big.
Betsan Corkhill: It's sock yarn, Well, it's in sock yarn. Yes,
it's, it depends. I pick up on sometimes I'll just do a dish
cloth. Yeah. So you'll do it or a face cloth?
Mia Hobbs: So pretty much every day, you'll do some knitting.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm exactly the same. And I definitely also
relate to the idea of having projects for different, I don't
know, moments in my life. So I need something I find if I'm
doing a zoom training or something, I need to knit
something rhythmical. And easy, because it helps me focus on
sitting still and listening. Yeah, I'm learning something.
Whereas I also like to have something more complicated. They
have to really focus on so that it's not possible to think about
stressful things for the rest of my life at the same time as
doing the knitting.
Betsan Corkhill: Yes, yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, obviously,
the level is different for everybody. But if you have an
easy project going on, you can listen to and take in
information and retain information. I think lots of
knitters say they retain the information better more
effectively than anything. I wouldn't be able to do that with
a complex pattern. No, it would have to be an easy one. Yeah. So
my my brain, my brain is doing something automatically in the
background, but my attention is on the on the talk.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, the same. And I find it's easy to do, you know,
stocking stitch or garter stitch for, you know, you can get
through the boring inches on on a sweater or something. While
you're listening. Definitely find it helps me focus. And I
would love to hear more about Stitchlinks and the kind of
community you've created. And I know your invitation on the
stitchlinks Website for people to send you stories about their
relationship with knitting. I'm assuming that was inspired by
this filing cabinet that you this treasure trove. You came
across all those letters?
Betsan Corkhill: Yes, yeah. And you know that I continue to get
stories and the stories are mind blowing. And they're in, you
know, in what I mean, I had one yesterday from somebody who
said, my mother, last year, my mother and father were both in
intensive care with COVID. Fortunately, they both survived.
But her mother returned home from hospital having to sleep on
the sofa because she wasn't able to walk upstairs. She's too
breathless to walk upstairs. Obviously, quite low, unable to
use her left hand. And her daughter took her some yarn and
some needles and asked her to knit a blanket for her. And the
mother has now just found her purpose in life, and she's
regained the use of a left hand. Wow. So yeah, she's she and she
puts it all down to knitting.
Mia Hobbs: So I guess my area of work is mainly in the mental
health and psychological benefits of knitting, but it
sounds like you're really noticing also physical changes,
like the experience of pain. And yes, I guess rehabilitation
physically.
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah, yes. And it's, I mean, as you know, it's
all intricately intertwined, isn't it? Yes. You know, if you
if you feel better mentally, you're more likely to go out and
do something physically, aren't you and it's if you feel better
physically, you feel better mentally. It's all in. It's all
intertwined. So, yeah, you see the benefits across the, across
the board. And I think doing something like creative like
knitting in, in lockdown or in a situation of greater uncertainty
and, you know, our fear systems were, were were used werent't
they to, to, to give information out about COVID. And because you
couldn't get that information across by appealing to people's
common sense, the only way they could get people to adhere to
lockdowns was to terrify the life out of everybody, and work.
And you know, and all those advertising, slogans were were
based on our fear systems and making us afraid to go out and
touch things and be close to people. And you can't just
switch those on and you know, haven't switched on for two
years, or 18 months, two years and expect them then to switch
off again, you know, people are still still last year there. And
I think having something creative, like knitting in that
time, has been almost the opposite to that, to that level
of fear. It's, it creates a sense of safety. It's colourful,
it's constructive. It's sort of the All in all the things that
are opposite to, to what we to what our minds werete nding to
dwell on all the time.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. It would be really helpful if you've got a
kind of summary of the all of the work you've done and the
things that you've noticed being therapeutic about knitting, have
you got a kind of a is there a way of synthesising? I think
you've got it right? You've got a knitting equation on the
Stitchlinks Website. Yeah, it'd be helpful to hear a little bit
about that.
Betsan Corkhill: So the knitting equation, I divided it up into
three columns. So the first column are the movements, and I
think the movements are really important. And the second column
is having an enriched environment. And then the third
column is the benefits of the social engagement and in a
group. So you can choose the the benefits of knitting are diff
alone are different from knitting in a group. But the
movements, the movements and is portability. I think what sets
knitting apart from other creative activities, yeah. So
the movements are two-handed, bilateral, they cross the
midline of the body, they're rhythmic, and they're repetitive
and they become automatic, and all those have a certain number
of benefits. But I think the one that's of most benefit is rhythm
of movements. Most of the stories will talk about the
rhythm of movements and calming the mind down and there is some
research now that your brain likes rhythmic movement or
rhythmic activities, because it makes the brain feel safe. You
know, you'll you'll know that the the brain is always
predicting what's around the corner, so it doesn't like
surprises. It doesn't like uncertainty last that's why a
lot of people have struggled over the last 20 months your
brain hates uncertainty and although uncertainty has always
been there since the moment you were conceived. You know, you we
used to live life with it in the background really was but over
the last 20 months has been thrust to the forefront of our
minds every single day. And rhythm is predictable. So it
makes the brain feel safe. So anything that's rhythmic will,
will help you know I've had people send stories about they
find drumming, for example, has a very similar effect. Some
people say baking bread, kneading bread has the same
effect playing a musical instrument. When you think about
those things, like they're great. And I would encourage
people to do a variety of things. But you can't take it
with it with you on a bus, you can't do it on public transport.
And that's the huge benefit of knitting is that you have a tool
really effective tool for calming you down almost
instantaneously that you can carry with you and we we've had
quite a lot of success curing panic attacks for example. Lots
of people can't go on public transport without it
particularly now. And they you know, you can use it in the
middle of the night. It doesn't disturb anybody else. So that's
really what raises it up. We've we've really struggled apart
from crochet. And then the only way the crochet differs is that
some styles of crochet are very one-handed. And we tend to I
would encourage people to learn more two-handed techniques Have
crochet because I think two-handed Nature is, is
important.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, I wondered if you could talk a little bit more
about that, because you and I had a conversation before we
started recording about a study that's in progress. It's using
crochet and that it is different to knitting. And it's something
somebody else has mentioned in one of my interviews about
crocheting, but not quite finding the same therapeutic
kind of feeling from crochet. And I'm interested in and I
think that two-handed and the bilateral movements is something
I think a lot of people won't know about. So I wondered if you
could say a little bit more about the theories about why
that's helpful.
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah, I think, I mean, there's no research to
back this up specifically on knitting. But there is in other
areas, if you're, if you're using, you know, everybody, most
people know if using your left hand is controlled by the right
side of your brain, and vice versa. When you bring your hands
together to form a complex pattern of movements, your brain
has to work really quite hard to coordinate those hands, it
occupies a lot of capacity in that moment. If you're crossing
the midline, then you're going over into that sort of brain
space with your hands. And that's, that actually
complicates things even even further. So that you know, there
are quite a few people that say that, yes, maybe they find
sewing, set rhythmic. But a two-handed movement seems to
induce a meditative state more readily. Because you're taking
up more capacity more of the brain is involved in that core
inner coordination. So you know, there's some with with crochet,
if you;re holding the crochet hook with one hand and just
holding the yarn with the other hand and just picking up the
yarn, you're very much more or less you just using one hand.
There are techniques where you can feed the yarn with your with
the yarn holding hands so that you are getting this more
coordinated pattern of movements. That's just a theory
of mine. But I think it's you know, if you get if you're
getting down to the real details, you have to look at
things like that.
Mia Hobbs: I was thinking about EMDR. Yeah, so eye movement,
desensitisation reprocessing, which is something used in
trauma therapy by psychologists, it's not something I'm
specifically trained in, but lots of my colleagues are, and
that uses eye movements and sometimes tapping and crosses
the midline of the body. And the idea is that those repetitive
movements help with re processing a traumatic memory.
So I think its a really interesting link
Betsan Corkhill: I think there is there is discussion going on
with whether the mechanisms behind what's going on with
knitting, very similar to EMDR. And I've certainly worked with
people suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and
their incidence of flashbacks and the severity of the
flashbacks that has improved significantly with knitting. In
fact, knitting was a the treatment of choice for soldiers
after World War One for shellshock. Which, which we now
know as post traumatic stress they used knitting. So yeah, the
there is that rhythmic, repetitive movement that
crosses the midline and to teachers of young children will
say they do something called Brain gym, which is a series of
movements that cross the midline of the body to get the brain,
awake in the mornings. And again, there's a there's a, you
know, focus on crossing that midline. The other thing I would
say about crochet is that if you holding a hook and you have a
sort of like a pincer grip on the hook, and you're, you're
turning your hand all the time that people that are susceptible
to hand and wrist pain, get more real hand and wrist pain, so
need to pace need to pace crochet more than they pace.
Knitting. Yeah, so that's the other. That's the other issue if
you if you have a tendency towards hand and wrist pain to
be a little bit more careful there. But I would encourage
people to do both this. You know, the great as you know that
variety is good for the brain, so you don't want well,
therapeutic knitting is not about encouraging people to sit
and knit all day. It's about using it as a tool to improve
your well being. It's about not sitting for more than about 20
minutes. It's about getting up and moving around. That's all
part of that therapeutic side, getting a circulation going and
using it as part of a whole sort of wellbeing toolbox. Really?
Yeah.
Mia Hobbs: Have you had much? I don't know. I'm wondering about
what the reception was from academics when you're applying
for research funding or for people who were suggested to
come to a knitting group for pain management, like how have
you found that has been received by people who might not be
knitters.
Betsan Corkhill: In the beginning. Scientists
researchers laughed and laughed. And I don't know if you know,
but I had to call knitting something different in the
beginning.
Mia Hobbs: I think I read that in your book that you had to
rebrand it.
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah. Had to call it a bilateral rhythmic
psychosocial intervention.
Mia Hobbs: And that worked?
Betsan Corkhill: it did it did it? Yeah, it's really weird.
There is a oh ay would those who are saying there's almost a fear
of using the word knitting in some sort of ways or a fear of
being seen as a knitter? It's, it's bizarre. This is it's all
it's a fear of the because people see it as something
that's been that's done by women. It's soft. It's, you
know, it's the opposite to yours to science really soft. It's
fluffy, done by people think it's done by older women or your
granny in and there's a lot of that thinking that's going on,
underneath what people think of knitting. Yeah. And soon as I
started to argue, from the scientific perspective, you
know, I'd be in a conference and people will say, say to me a,
what do you do, then I say, Well, if I do I use the K word
or not. And if I use the K word, people would in a and say, you
know, we're using knitting to treat chronic pain. They would
laugh, and you could see their gaze going elsewhere and say,
How am I going to get away from this man woman? I was treated a
bit like a knitting evangelist who wanted to spread the word
knitting, whereas ironically, at that time, I wasn't, I wouldn't
have called myself a knitter. Okay. I had not got back into
it, then. Yeah. But if I said, we're using a bilateral rhythmic
psychosocial intervention, they would say, well, that's
interesting. And what are you doing? How are you doing that
then? And that would open that would open the door where we're
using knitting, as you know, so it wasn't? Yeah, it wasn't seen
as knitting then.
Mia Hobbs: That's so interesting. It took you a while
to overcome that stigma?
Betsan Corkhill: Yes. Yeah. And we I know, we've had funding
proposals turned down without them being read, because the
word knitting has been in the title.
Mia Hobbs: So has it changed at all? Since you still, you said
started in 2005?
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah, it has changed. I'm asked to speak
quite regularly now to groups of doctors. Before COVID, we had a
number of GP clinics and hospitals who were thinking of
starting up therapeutic knitting groups obviously, can't couldn't
do that in person now. But it's, it's people don't laugh anymore.
And also, I have a lot more confidence in it as well, which
makes difference. Because it was a bit it was, it was quite
challenging to me personally, you know, if you have somebody
just laugh at you Sure. When you think when you're thinking,
right, okay.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, I think it took me a while to feel confident
enough to do that. I think, you know, I left my NHS job in 2017,
and went into private practice. And as I was leaving my NHS
team, I was known as the knitter there. And I'd organised a few,
you know, collaborative projects where we knitted squares, and I
put them together to make blankets for people's babies.
And I said, you know, I'd really like to run therapeutic knitting
groups. And it was slightly kind of taken as a bit of a joke. And
I think it's taken me until this year, really to think there
actually, there is enough evidence behind the idea of
running therapeutic knitting groups and starting to use it
more in my work without feeling worried about how people will
respond. And I think I've also taken some of the principles of
therapeutic knitting and applied to a bit flexibly to people who
were say, would say no to knitting, but they're using some
similar skills to create circut boards or doing something
slightly different, but getting some of the same benefits in
whatever way feels accessible for them. Yeah,
Betsan Corkhill: absolutely. I mean, I was known by one GP
practice as that mad knitting woman. And, and even now I can
go to a conference and introduced to somebody and
they'll say, Oh, so you're that knitting woman you are not as,
as anything else apart from that knitting woman, but now it's not
done so in such a derogatory way.
Mia Hobbs: Maybe people are starting to see a bit more of
the benefits. I certainly feel it, for example, conferences
just before COVID, there was more of an idea about, it's okay
to doodle, or it's okay to do something if it helps you to
focus on sitting still for six hours and listening to a
training course, which actually, we as humans are not really
designed to do.
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah. And I think there's a lot, I think,
actually COVID has helped bizarrely in some way, in that
people are a lot more accepting of what we would call mind body
therapies as well. And there's now a lot of recognition in you
know, needing a bottom up as well as a top down approach. And
the benefits of that, and, you know, knitting is, is it, you
know, changes the input into the brain but it, also induces that
level of calm. So you get that top down, calm and the bottom
up, rhythm coming in. And, and there's more recognition
scientifically now of, of of that.
Mia Hobbs: And I wonder whether actually COVID has forced us all
to think about what do I need in order to be happy and healthy?
Like, what do I get from my mind and my body? Yeah, to be able to
function? Well, as a human? Yes. A lot of things were thrown up
in the air.
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah. It's also alerted people to your Well,
yes, I am connected to the natural world as well. And it's
all you know, it's all tied in. It's not. You can't solve
everything with with a pill. It's all interrelated. It's all
intertwined.
Mia Hobbs: And one of the questions I always ask in the
podcast is whether someone can talk about a significant
knitting project for them. So that could be one of your
projects, it could be one that's come up in as part of your work.
Betsan Corkhill: Actually. The the blanket that's behind me
there.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, that's beautiful. I was noticing that.
Betsan Corkhill: It's when I did. It's my comfort blanket for
when my mother died.
Mia Hobbs: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.
Betsan Corkhill: That was it. It was while it was eight years ago
now. But it's pretty, it was pretty traumatic at the time.
And as it happened, my one of my best friends husband, died in
the same week in traumatic in a traumatic way. And we both
belong to the same knitting group. So we both started, we
sat with each other. And I think in those times, you, you don't
want to talk you you know, people, when people come around,
they feel the need to talk when you don't want to talk. So we
just sat with each other in silence and knitted those
blankets,
Mia Hobbs: did you knit the same blanket?
Betsan Corkhill: She knitted a slightly different pattern. But
yeah, she was just going in straight lines. And that's all
we needed. And mine was more or less straight lines. But members
from the knitting group would knock on the door, bring some
cake and sit, just sit down and knit with us and not say
anything. And we would, you know, and and they would come
and go and supported us. So I think that was it actually
turned into quite a special time. And you know, we both have
that we both have those blankets now. Yeah.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. Does it feel? Does it feel comforting? Now?
Yes. to have the blanket to remember time?
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah. But it also feels comforting to know
that that helped me deal with processing the trauma of it all.
And it really did. Yeah. And I think without it, perhaps I
would have had some post traumatic flashbacks, because I
was sort of before, you know, sort of, immediately after the
event, I was having those. And they certainly helped to calm
those down. So yes, I would say that's,
Mia Hobbs: so that's a really special blanket.
Betsan Corkhill: Yes, yeah.
Mia Hobbs: And I do think that's a really powerful thing about
knitting that you can get through something really hard
and have something that is a very physical tangible reminder.
But also in a comforting way, often of overcoming or living
through surviving something that was difficult.
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah, I think a blanket is a nice is a nice
project to do in that kind of thing because it because it
keeps you warm as you're doing it sort of wraps around you as
you as you're making it. So I think it's a really nice
project, mindless project to do while you and I think, you know,
one of the things that came out in our in my observations of
doing this work is that people don't get an opportunity to just
be with other people without feeling the need to participate
or talk very much anymore. i It was my mother who, who actually
brought up when I was visiting in when I was staying with her.
Towards the end of her life. She said, it's so nice to have you
here in the evening because I don't feel I have to talk, I can
just be with somebody else. So whereas I got visitors, she had
used to have visitors all the time, who pop in for, they pop
in for a chat and feel they had to make conversation. And she
said, I don't want to make conversation all the time, I
just want to sit and be. So what actually, that's what knitting
allows, even in a knitting group, you go into a group and
sit in the group, but you can sit and just be
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And I found that really helpful for people
who don't find social situations so easy that there's a shared
focus, there's a there's a topic of conversation if you want one.
But also there isn't any requirement to talk that you
could just be there with other people knitting, and not say
anything at all. And that wouldn't be considered unusual
or rude, or
Betsan Corkhill: I think I think, I think that's one of the
most important aspects of a group of particularly
therapeutic group. Because it people come along, even if
they're not, even if they're feeling particularly vulnerable
on that day, because they know they don't have to participate.
All the people who used to come to my pain knitting group,
wouldn't have gone to a group if it wasn't for knitting, because
every other group would require you to introduce yourself to say
what you do, you know, and and require you to to take part. But
it's, you know, what I one of the things we identified was
that knitting is one of the few activities that you can have eye
contact or not. Yeah, and the or not, it was really important,
because if you're not feeling like participating, you put it
perfectly acceptable to just sit and knit quietly. And just as
therapeutic to just sit and knit quietly as it is to join in with
the chat. Yeah. And that's what makes it so, so valuable as a
therapeutic tool for a group.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, yeah, I've definitely spoken to people
don't always, you know, they've told me they don't find eye
contact easy, or sometimes it feels challenging. And knitting
is one of the things that has helped them to be in group
spaces, because it just isn't required in the same way it's
perfect. You know, lots of people are just looking down at
their knitting, or they look up, you know, fleetingly and that's
fine.
Betsan Corkhill: Yes. And there's always a topic of
conversation. Now you can say, Well, I would really like that
colour, or, you know, I've done this what pattern you're doing.
So you don't have to hunt for a topic of conversation, either. I
think I don't know whether you found but what I found when
running knitting groups is that conversation tends to get much
deeper and more intimate more quickly. And people find it easy
to talk when they knit. And I think that's something to do
with the automatic nature of movements. And I wasn't, at
first I wasn't, I didn't really focus on the automatic nature.
But now I think that this is really quite important, because
I think if you give the brain a background automatic task to do,
then it's somehow and some of the stories say this, actually,
that somehow frees up the rest of the mind, the brain to do
other things. It occupies the brain or at a low level,
enabling them to talk to talk. And, you know, very, very, I've
lost count to the number of times the people have said to me
while we're sitting and knitting together. I haven't told anybody
this before. Yeah. And it's usually a pretty horrendous
story of some of some sort of trauma that they've kept in that
they haven't felt able to talk about.
Mia Hobbs: I wonder whether the eye contact helps with that as
well. Because certainly some of the things that I work a lot
with teenagers and their families, and I find that
parents of teenagers often say, Well, they don't really open up
to me, unless we happen to be in the car driving somewhere. And I
guess driving is another automatic kind of process, but
also, from the teenagers perspective, who's probably not
doing the driving, they're sitting not having to make eye
contact or have an intense we're sitting down to have a chat type
conversation. And maybe that's feels a bit safer to then start
to talk about something that might be quite difficult.
Betsan Corkhill: Yes, I think I mean, I think it's that feeling
of safety, that's the important you get a sort of it does. When
you're knitting you do get a sense of safety of being safe,
being safe in that moment. And again, I think that's down to
the down to the movements that those rhythmic movements and
yeah, you feel safer to divulge that information.
Mia Hobbs: That's so interesting. I always end the
podcast with with asking what's the greatest gift that you
You've been given by knitting that's helped helped you in the
rest of your life. I don't know what you what your ideas are
about that Betsan.
Betsan Corkhill: I think for me, it's set me on a completely
different path in life.
Mia Hobbs: In terms of your career. Yeah, yeah.
Betsan Corkhill: And it's got me thinking outside the box because
you know, I was a physio and as a physio we were trained in a
very biomechanical way. And but I'm completely sort of away from
that now. And it's It's opened my ideas up to a whole range of
issues. I'm I do a lot of work now in the world of, of long
term pain with people long term pain. I've become a Tai Chi
teacher as a result of knitting, which sounds strange, but there
are many similarities. It's sort of rhythmic, rhythmic movement.
It's so yeah, so it's completely changed the course of my life.
Really?
Mia Hobbs: Wow. So that's a big thing. Yeah, yeah, sure. I'm
sure there'll be loads of people who want to hear more about your
work about the research and therapeutic knitting in general,
how can they find out more about your work or get in touch with
you?
Betsan Corkhill: Well, my through the websites
stitchlinks.com, but also my book knit for health and
wellness, how to knit a flexible mind, has got a lot of advice
about therapeutic knitting and history of it. And I'm quite
happy for people to email me Betsan@Stitchlinks.com. Okay.
Yeah. So happy for anybody to contact me.
Mia Hobbs: Lovely. I mean, Betson it's been an absolute
pleasure to hear all about your experiences. It's been so
interesting. And thank you so much for agreeing to come on the
podcast.
Betsan Corkhill: Thank you. I've really enjoyed it.
Mia Hobbs: Thank you for listening to the Why I Knit
podcast. If you'd like to find out more about therapeutic
knitting you can follow me on Instagram
@knittingistherapeutic. Or check out my website therapeutic
knitting.org. To be notified when a new podcast is released.
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