PART 3

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 43 of People Soup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:07] Kerry: There's a lovely story, which I think explains the, concept of ventral anchors, and it's a story of a student that goes to his teacher and he, he's going to the teacher with his pain and the teacher says to him to take a teaspoon of salt and to pour the teaspoon of salt into a glass and to drink the water and of course it's very salty.

[00:00:31] He then takes him down to the lake and he tells him to pour the salt into the lake and then to take a drink of water from the lake. So when he takes a drink of water from the lake it's not salty at all. kind of the headline of the story is for us to become more like the lake. So the more that we can have this ventral to hold us in our challenge, then the more resource we feel.

[00:00:57] Ross: Peasoopers, here's the third and final part of my chat with Kerry Cullen. Kerry is an embodiment coach, facilitator, chartered psychologist, and an expert on polyvagal theory.

[00:01:09] In this episode, we spend a bit more time reflecting on how polyvagal theory might help us understand our behavior in the workplace.

[00:01:17] including the concept of rupture and repair, noticing and naming our state, and how to map our own states and make our own resources more accessible.

[00:01:27] Now, for those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, hello! Welcome! Great to have you on board. we are an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun. Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioral science.

[00:01:56] Now let's just scoot over to the news desk. If you'd like to find out [00:02:00] more about the Act in the Workplace Train the Trainer program that I developed with Dr.

[00:02:04] Paul Flaman in partnership with Contextual Consulting, you'll find the link in the show notes. It's coming up soon, in April and May this year. I've trained hundreds of adults using this training protocol, and also hundreds of trainers too. Thanks to Joe Oliver at Contextual Consulting, There's a code for the course which gives you a 20 percent discount, and that code is PSOOP20. You'll find all the links in the show notes.

[00:02:29] Now p super's in exciting news. The bookmarks have landed, they've been delivered, And each review that's read out on the show will receive a couple of our freshly designed bookmarks.

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[00:02:55] And we really do love to get your reviews, because they help us reach more people with stuff that could be useful. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to part 3 of my chat with Kerry Cullen.

[00:03:13] Kerry: we've talked about the social engagement and looking at, you know, how we can actually co regulate. Actually, we can also disregulate. So in, in terms of if our pace is, is too fast or too slow and actually if we're in the ladder, on the ladder, if we find ourselves in sympathetic or we're in dorsal and we're in dysregulation, we can find then that we can have ruptures with other people.

[00:03:40] Because if we think about, particularly if they're dysregulated. And I really find this very liberating, Ross, to think about that we're human, we're gonna be dysregulated, and therefore we're gonna have a dysregulated system talking to another dysregulated system that's gonna happen and we'll have [00:04:00] ruptures.

[00:04:00] And I just find that so liberating. So it's not that we've had a rupture and something is wrong in our relationship, you know, it's like we've had a rupture and something is right. This is part of the process.

[00:04:12] Ross: Beautiful. I just love

[00:04:13] this so much, this idea of rupture. And we're, and we're speaking from a, An unresourceful place.

[00:04:19] Kerry: Yeah, and if we can honor the rupture and name the rupture, then we can repair. And when we repair, we can actually make the relationship stronger. And that has been my experience and I'm very conflict averse as well, Ross. So I find conflict really challenging, you know. But actually working through it from the language of rupture and thinking about it from dysregulation and just having an honest conversation about that really can strengthen relationships.

[00:04:47] Ross: Blimey. I hear it and I love, I love the rupture and repair element of this co regulation. So Kerry, I wonder, there's a skill in noticing where we are on the ladder and then what to do next. I wonder if you could just talk to us a bit about that.

[00:05:03] Noticing and Naming

[00:05:03] Kerry: Yeah, so absolutely. the skill, what we call notice and naming, which I think is similar to ACT, right?

[00:05:10] Just that ability for us to actually notice where we are on the ladder can really help us to stand back and see. So in Polyvagal we do mapping exercises where we'll take that map and then we'll populate that map for ourselves.

[00:05:28] So what's it like for us to be at the top and the middle or the bottom of the ladder? What are the words? You know, how does it feel for you? So we, so we get a sense to be able to tune into that. And then the invitation is a practice of actually stopping and, you know, regularly just checking in and saying, well, where am I on the ladder right now?

[00:05:48] and I think it can be very powerful. It's like me yesterday when. I was in sympathetic, but I hadn't really realized I was in sympathetic until I caught myself in the seeking behavior. [00:06:00] And then it got me noticing, okay, this is where I am. So I think that practice of noticing and naming like act with compassion, respecting the survival state.

[00:06:12] So respecting the response.

[00:06:14] Ross: yeah, so it's like noticing where I am on the ladder can be sort of curative. It gives me more possibilities to think here I am,

[00:06:23] is this really useful for me right now? What can I do next?

[00:06:26] Kerry: yeah, well to me it feels de shaming as well because I can get stuck in the story. Let's say I'm in, Sympathetic and let's say that I'm feeling very critical to myself about something, like I'm ruminating over something that I've done so I've got these thoughts of God, you know, why did I say that and could have done this differently, you know, that kind of thing.

[00:06:46] And I think you call this, is it courtroom drama Which I love the term of, I think it's wonderful. And in Polyvagal. If we can notice that this is what's going on and then come back to, so I'm, I'm in sympathetic, so you come back to the state. So if we notice the state, then it can be, well, how can I change my state?

[00:07:07] Because if I change my state, the story will will then change. So I'll give you an example of that. I remember I'd done a training course one day, woke up in the middle of the night and I'm having my courtroom drama, you know, really going over it, for a couple of hours of this kind of ruminating thoughts.

[00:07:27] And twigged, okay, I'm in sympathetic. This is what's happening. But then I thought about, well, how do I change my state? So what I did was actually do some breathing technique. And, a regulation of the nervous system exercise. And it was so fascinating because when I did that, the story dropped because my state had changed.

[00:07:48] Ross: Wow.

[00:07:49] Kerry: So it can be really powerful for us to tune in, for us individually, if we notice where we are on the ladder and then to create some menus for ourselves around [00:08:00] what helps us move out of this place and move more up the ladder.

[00:08:05] Ross: So that's what we're doing when we do the mapping. I know I've done one mapping with

[00:08:09] you, Kerry, and when we're doing that, we're kind of just unpacking our system a bit to realize and rehearse what might be useful for us in my toolkit to help me move into that

[00:08:23] Um,

[00:08:26] Kerry: states, we're not as connected because remember we're disconnected. We're not as connected to our resources. find them harder to recall. So it can be really helpful to have those menus ready for ourselves. So like yesterday when it was like noticing I'm in sympathetic, get in the car, go to the park with the dog and start walking, you know.

[00:08:45] So it's like we have these menus ready for what helps us move up the ladder. And I suppose just to give some sort of general parameters about that, if we're in sympathetic with too much energy, what helps us move up the ladder is either something that will dispel the energy, so it can be going for a run or something that gets rid of energy or something that brings the energy down a bit, but something that's too slow in sympathetic, well, perhaps won't register as much, if that makes sense.

[00:09:18] Ross: yeah, it makes perfect sense.

[00:09:19] Kerry: Yeah.

[00:09:20] Ross: we're, what if we're at the bottom?

[00:09:22] Kerry: Yeah, if we're at the bottom, and that's, it's a really interesting place to explore, I think, we actually need more kindling. So, if we think the energy is very low, it's like when you're trying to get a fire lit. It's about thinking about it in terms of kindling. What's something very small that can start to bring some energy back?

[00:09:44] So, you know, Debra even talked about, remember we said it's not a bucket, but if we find ourselves really low in that place, it can be just as simple as putting your feet on the floor, And actually, you know, being able to sit and bring [00:10:00] some, you know, into your posture and just bring some energy into the way you're sitting.

[00:10:04] So really small, more micro moves, It might be just let's say nature is very regulating for a lot of us, so if we're in dorsal it might be simply just either going outside and sitting in nature or having a more of a slower walk. And it can be interesting if somebody's home away from home is more sympathetic.

[00:10:27] And let's say they've had burnout or a bereavement or something that has dropped them down more into dorsal. Actually, it can be quite challenging because they're used to bringing their strategies, their sympathetic strategies in place. So I'll often hear people saying, I just wish I could get back to my running.

[00:10:45] You know, it feels out of touch. It feels too far away. So then it's about relearning different strategies, which is about just bringing some kindling into the system.

[00:10:58] Ross: and I love the kindling because that's like small steps.

[00:11:01] Kerry: Yeah, yeah,

[00:11:02] Ross: my bike for a while cause I had a bit of a tumble and now I'm ready to get back on it, but I notice I need a bit of that kindling. Like, to get my stuff ready, to research a route, to check there's air in the tyres. All of that creates that sort of anticipation and excitement for me

[00:11:20] that I can move that and I can do it,

[00:11:23] Kerry: Yeah.

[00:11:24] Ross: otherwise, without the kindling, I'll just stay there at the bottom.

[00:11:28] Kerry: Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:11:29] Feeling stuck

[00:11:29] Kerry: So that kindling is getting some energy. I know for me when I'm in Dorsal, let's say I have a proposal or something to do and I feel that I'm stuck, you know, so then there'll be this voice that'll go, okay, I'm going to spend all afternoon doing this proposal and I'm going to get the whole thing done, you know, and then I won't do any of it.

[00:11:49] So. So I find it really helpful to say to myself, okay, I'm just going to spend 10, 15 minutes on this and just see what comes.

[00:11:59] it brings a [00:12:00] bit of flow, you know, but not too big an ask, and also giving yourself permission then that, you know, that might be it and that's okay.

[00:12:07] So, but it's recognizing it's too big an ask.

[00:12:11] Ross: Yeah, it's like I've been having a right laugh with my dad the last few days. because he's writing the Christmas card. It's not, uh, it's not an activity he loves. But I noticed he went through the stage of, Right, I've got the area on the desk ready. I've got my pens out. I've got my lists. But I haven't actually written anything yet.

[00:12:30] And I'm like, okay. Well, maybe do the, the overseas one first.

[00:12:36] Kerry: Yeah.

[00:12:38] Ross: Kind of ignoring the fact that he's missed the overseas postal deadlines, but let's just get those out of the way first. And then he got into a bit of, that was a bit of kindling for

[00:12:47] Kerry: Yeah, Yeah,

[00:12:49] Ross: So

[00:12:49] yeah,

[00:12:49] that's those small steps and that,

[00:12:51] that word kindling just really represents how we can start small and really start that, that fire.

[00:12:57] Kerry: yeah,

[00:12:57] Ross: Beautiful.

[00:12:58] Poss Spoons

[00:12:58]

[00:13:01] Kerry: so in terms of moving up and down the ladder,

[00:13:05] Ross: Hmm.

[00:13:05] Kerry: it's not about being in ventral all of the time as we've mentioned, and of course that, you know, the more we can cultivate that ventral energy for ourselves, the more we have that in the tank. And often it's about what Deb calls using that as a ventral anchor.

[00:13:21] So we have that then to be able to bring to experience, what might be more challenging. So, for example, when I was having that conversation with my surgeon, there was still sympathetic or, you know, let me just think into it now. there would have been some dorsal running in the system, but it's about creating that ventral anchor, so creating the resilience that lies between us, that we can then lean into that to hold then some of that dorsal energy, if that makes sense.

[00:13:55] Salty water

[00:13:55] Kerry: There's a lovely story, which I think explains the, concept of ventral [00:14:00] anchors, and it's a story of a student that goes to his teacher and he, he's going to the teacher with his pain and the teacher says to him to take a teaspoon of salt and to pour the teaspoon of salt into a glass and to drink the water and of course it's very salty.

[00:14:19] He then takes him down to the lake and he tells him to pour the salt into the lake and then to take a drink of water from the lake. So when he takes a drink of water from the lake it's not salty at all. kind of the headline of the story is for us to become more like the lake. So the more that we can have this ventral to hold us in our challenge, then the more resource we feel.

[00:14:44] Ross: I love that. Because it's very much aligned with ACT, once again, is that we're making space for our whole

[00:14:52] human experience. We're not trying to move away from the difficult emotions or sensations we have inside of us. Because when we move away from that stuff to try and dull it or mute

[00:15:03] it, we're typically doing things that aren't very productive or useful for our general health and well being. So those ventral anchors are kind of like, is it almost like we're throwing ourselves a rope to

[00:15:17] Kerry: Yeah, that's,

[00:15:17] Ross: up the ladder? Is that?

[00:15:19] Kerry: yeah, that's a lovely way of thinking about it. Yeah, we've got these anchors in ventral

[00:15:23] that can then hold the experience that we're having. So we might also think of that in terms of the preponderance of safety and danger. So it's like giving ourselves more of those cues of safety to hold that heart that is going more into survival, if that makes sense.

[00:15:44] Ross: Absolutely.

[00:15:46] Kerry: The more we can orientate towards what really feeds our ventral, you know,

[00:15:50] that can then fill us up.

[00:15:52] Ross: And we need to become more familiar with those ventral anchors, because the more

[00:15:56] we repeat accessing them, the more chance we'll have to access them in the

[00:15:59] [00:16:00] future, maybe when times are more turbulent.

[00:16:02] Kerry: Yeah. Exactly.

[00:16:04] Yeah.

[00:16:05] Ross: of this mapping.

[00:16:06] Kerry: Yes,

[00:16:06] I think there's a lovely link with that, of actually doing it too, right? Because we could know, for example, that being in nature really fills us up, then we might find we're not orientated to it as much, you know.

[00:16:18] So creating, how do we bring that into our habit that that's, that becomes part of our way of being to fill

[00:16:26] Ross: love the way you express these things. And Kerry, there's a point I'd just like to go back to a bit about kind of conflict in the workplace, or if say you're a leader talking to a member of your team and one of you is in sympathetic, the other one's in dorsal, and how that can create that mismatch and potentially misunderstanding and rupture.

[00:16:47] Kerry: Yeah.

[00:16:48] Ross: What would you say to a leader and a team member in, in states like this? How would you help them unpack

[00:16:53] it?

[00:16:54] Kerry: Yeah. Well, that's, it's a really good question and it's so practical, right? You know, how, how do we actually bring this to life? So just thinking from the leader perspective, there's, there's a couple of things there. I think it's about the more you can bring your ventral energy, the more you will be able to help those in your team co regulate.

[00:17:16] So I actually think it's a cornerstone of good leadership. And again, we inherently know this, but the more that we can cultivate that in our culture, then we can help others regulate and you're human. And you will find at times that you will, in your humanness, you're going to have rupture. And I think, you know, if we use that example of, let's say you're a sympathetic leader and then you've got your colleague who's in dorsal.

[00:17:43] So we've had this rupture. I think then it's about naming the rupture and about giving context. Our nervous systems love context. So, let's say for example, you know, I'm in sympathetic and, you know, I haven't [00:18:00] slept well or there's a lot going on. I think even naming that is really helpful because it can Take the other person out of the story of this is to do with my value or this is to do with me, or do you know what I mean?

[00:18:13] The story that we go into.

[00:18:15] Ross: Hmm

[00:18:15] Kerry: So I think actually giving that context of, you know, I was, found myself in sympathetic. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm feeling the pressure of us meeting this deadline, you know, that can often be one. So, you know, I'm really feeling that. So whatever's going on for you, actually naming that explicitly.

[00:18:33] And if you can do it in the language of, of the ladder, I think that can be even more helpful because now we're, we're looking through that lens of biology.

[00:18:42] Ross: hmm. so powerful to name it. Whether you're saying I've got stuff going on outside of work, or I'm

[00:18:48] just really anxious about this deadline, or

[00:18:52] I've just had a meeting with my boss

[00:18:55] Kerry: yeah,

[00:18:56] Ross: who wasn't best pleased with progress.

[00:19:00] Kerry: yeah,

[00:19:00] Ross: it can give us a vocabulary and a way

[00:19:02] of being

[00:19:03] to, to diffuse situations more effectively, more coherently, and more consistently,

[00:19:12] Kerry: It's a really lovely way of putting it, Ross. Yeah.

[00:19:15] Ross: and we're all human.

[00:19:17] Kerry: We're all human, so it's going to happen, you know.

[00:19:21] I think that's the thing. And I think if we can name our own, you know, dysregulation, you're also making it okay for other people as well. You know, we're inviting them to also then be able to express what's going on for them.

[00:19:34] Ross: we're role modeling that humanity too.

[00:19:36] Kerry: The humanity. Yeah. Because we're all human, you know.

[00:19:40] And reminding ourselves that the relationships they can strengthen

[00:19:44] in the repair.

[00:19:45] Ross: Oh, you're giving me goosebumps.

[00:19:47] Kerry: thinking about nervous systems that if we're very dysregulated, other people will pick that up anyway, even if we think we're masking, which is another [00:20:00] interesting area to think about. to consider.

[00:20:02] Ross: it leaks out, doesn't it

[00:20:04] Kerry: yeah, people pick it, you pick it up in your system because we're back to neuroception, you're reading the environment,

[00:20:09] we'll pick up on other people's nervous systems anyway.

[00:20:13] So again, back to that giving context and naming that actually brings a sense of congruence.

[00:20:19] Ross: Beautiful. So Kerry, how's Polyvagal landing?

[00:20:23] What's the response been like?

[00:20:26] Kerry: Well, what I'm finding, Ross, is that people really resonate with it in general when we put that map up and show people the map, there's like a sigh from people. It's like, oh, that makes sense. And that's, really what I noticed is that people can really relate to that and can relate to the map and find that in themselves.

[00:20:48] So I'm finding that it does really resonate, and as we touched into a few times, that it is our innate wisdom, you know, it's just, again, it's just making explicit what we already know. you know, so there is a sense of resonance with it.

[00:21:04] Ross: I'm glad you're getting that resonance because I got that sigh. I got that moment of like, holy moly. Yeah.

[00:21:10] This explains that. And. It really helped me contextualize some of the discussions I've been having over this year with friends, family, realizing the position they might be coming from and where I'm coming from.

[00:21:23] Kerry: Yeah.

[00:21:24] Ross: It gives me

[00:21:25] a

[00:21:25] new, whole new vocabulary. I carry it, it feels like this, this conversation has been absolutely rammed with takeaways, but I wonder if there's any brief takeaway that you might leave the listeners with just to reflect on, particularly thinking about adults in the workplace.

[00:21:41] Kerry: yeah, that's a great question. I think thinking about adults in the workplace, what might be a useful takeaway is to think about the concept of glimmers. I love this concept of glimmers. So it's, it's this idea that, you know, however we're feeling or [00:22:00] however Overwhelmed we might be feeling at any time or what's going on, that we can, we can identify a glimmer, like a micro moment of joy, a micro moment of hope, or you know, that micro moment of ventral vagal.

[00:22:16] And actually there's glimmers all around us all of the time. And it's really an invitation just for us to notice the glimmers. So, you know, it could be, you know, as simple as a really, if you really love your coffee, I really love my coffee, Ross. You know, you're like just savoring that. It doesn't have to be for very long.

[00:22:35] It's just a few seconds. But, you know, these glimmers are around or the sunset or nature or, you know, a nice picture that you have. It's just, actually the invitation to take notice of the glimmers that are actually all around us, that actually feed our ventral.

[00:22:52] Ross: Pee Soup is there, you have it. Look out for the glimmers because they're there. And some of the time we're just not noticing those

[00:22:59] glimmers. Kerry, thanks so much for joining me on People Soup. it's been an absolute joy to hear your wisdom and how you unpack this to make it so accessible and relatable and useful for all of us in the workplace.

[00:23:12] Thank you so much.

[00:23:14] Kerry: And thank you so much, Ross. It's just been an absolute honour to be on PeopleSoup, so I'm really grateful, so thank you so much.

[00:23:22] Ross: That's it, pea soupers, part 3 of my chat with Kerry in the bag. Thanks so much to Kerry for being so open to the conversation about polyvagal theory, how it can be applied to the workplace, and how it relates to act. Next week, we have the first part of my conversation with clinical psychologist and award winning podcast legend, Michaela Thomas, who at the time of recording had just returned from a spacious adventure.

[00:23:54] Now, folks, Pea Soupers, we need your help. You can support us and help us reach more [00:24:00] people with this behavioural science. So

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[00:24:42] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

[00:24:55] Kerry: you're, you're so brilliant at it Roz, I'm so glad that you have a podcast because it's, it's a real skill that you have, a real skill.

[00:25:04] Ross: Oh, that's very kind of you and thank you. I do love doing it.