Hey everyone.

So welcome back to the millennia podcast.

I have my host as always, Jen Nusky.

And, uh, with us today is Amber Dungan.

So I found Amber on Instagram.

Um, she is a, well, what would you call yourself, Amber?

Uh, what's the title you go by?

I call myself

many things.

We're probably more of a serial entrepreneur.

Um, but.

What I'm, what I'm here to talk today about is more of just being a debt coach.

Okay.

Some people call you a, uh, a debt consolidator,

a debt consolidator.

Yeah.

I mean, it's very similar.

I think my main goal is to eliminate it rather than consolidate it.

So that's the point of differentiation between the names,

but you can call me whatever.

Got it.

So, yeah.

So, Amber, uh, we, uh, as you know, we have a podcast, uh, about, uh,

kind of ushering people towards the promised land of home ownership.

Jen and I though are in the process of kind of reaching back into people's

lives, which is, you know, debt, you know, credit repair, that type of stuff.

And you certainly fit the bill.

Uh, you have your own podcast, right?

I do.

It's called Life After Debt.

That's a great podcast.

That's what I listened to on my way home

from the shore yesterday.

It's a very clever name.

I, I, we have a clever name, but that life after debt is that's,

that's, that's a good play on words.

I like that.

It's a great jingle too.

Yeah.

I mean, most people can't see through to the end and they think that if they're in

debt, they're always going to be in debt.

And so, you know, there's hope.

And I, that's what I love about our podcast is that.

We're able to bring people on to share their own stories of where they were,

whether it's 140, 000 in credit card debt or 10, 000, but to find their way

out and see them at the end of it, it's literally like they come to life again.

Yeah.

And I would say real estate's the same way.

We're just at a different phase where like, you know, you're helping them way

early and then, you know, but getting, you know, sliding those keys across

the table and settlement has got that same feeling where, I mean, there's

just that elation that takes place, but why don't you, uh, why don't you

take like four or five minutes, just tell us a little bit about your history

and like kind of how you came to be.

Cause you say you're a serial entrepreneur.

I know that you've had past ventures in your life, like we all have, but why

don't you just take a minute and just kind of tell us about your lineage here.

Sure.

Thanks, Seth.

And thank you guys for bringing me on today to share this.

You know, I'm really passionate about individuals who are struggling

because I myself found myself in a situation back in 2008 where my

husband and I were mortgage brokers.

And when the mortgage business collapsed, um, it left

everybody with a gaping problem.

And the whole was is that people were sucking out the equity in their home

to pay off their credit card debt.

So when that no longer existed, it presented, well, what are people going

to do with their credit card debt now?

And so we were able to go in and start to look closely at working

with banks and credit card companies and go to that for consumers.

And that just allowed us with the hardship to get people out of debt a lot quicker,

because as you know, and maybe some of your listeners don't know, you know,

when people get these statements and they're making a payment, most of them

are just making the minimum payment.

And so it's like 1 percent goes to the principal balance and the rest is just

like a snowball compounding effect.

Right.

But, but the thing with the mortgage payment is all the

interest is tax deductible, right?

That's what I love about homeownership that most people don't even look at.

And I tell people that, especially when they're filing taxes, if it's

your primary residence and the interest that you're paying, at

least there's a benefit associated to doing it through homeownership.

Right.

Not with credit card debt.

So it really is just a snowball compounding effect that whereas they

might've had 40, 000 in credit card debt by the time they pay it off,

it'll probably be close to 80, 000 and they'll be paying for a steak

dinner they had two years ago.

And so when we launched that in 2008, it took off and we've ended up helping

millions of individuals in this country with their credit card debt and became one

of the largest companies in the nation.

Negotiating credit card debt.

So it's been a rewarding, um, industry, but it came out of the space of we lost

everything and how to file bankruptcy.

And you know what?

We recovered from it because the truth is, is that that is what

drove us to go help individuals.

We didn't want them to have to file bankruptcy and we wanted to find another

solution that would allow them the ability to get out of their situation.

of pain.

And that's what well.

And so, yeah, I mea the market turns, whether you know, new

market spac obviously you filled a ve

I

was lucky enough not to my, my wife's friend said buy a house,

you should b to my father, I'm thinkin Think again, you ain't doing anything

cause he, he was a real estate guy.

He understood, but I was very happy to not have to deal with that aspect of things.

Um, but so are you, so you, you live in Florida.

I live in Florida, have five children.

Um, and I also run other companies.

I've done everything from Gigi's cupcakes.

A gym, um, gas stations, you know, I've kind of played around

Jackie is one of my companies.

And so I really enjoy the idea of building something.

And most of my businesses are centered around, I want people

to feel like a million bucks.

And so as crazy as it sounds, whether it's clothes or, you know, people smile

when they come into a cupcake store, when they work out and feel good about

themselves, debt is no different.

When you can help somebody with their finances, whether it's getting out of

debt or for you guys, the way you're helping people grow their wealth.

Portfolio through real estate, like it's a rewarding feeling.

So yeah, I think that's the underlying theme and everything that I do.

Great.

So what is, um, so let's talk about homeowners, uh,

homeownership a little bit.

So, you know, a lot of that people either don't talk about, um, debt or,

or I'm sorry, homeownership, or they, you know, they, the thing that, Caught

my eye about you is that you, you kind of take a holistic approach and like

your whole thing is like, okay, yeah, we can deal with this debt, but then

you're also like thinking down the road here of like, okay, well then,

you know, real estate's a good thing.

You need to invest in that type of thing.

And so why do you think that is like a lot of real, a lot of debt people are just

don't really talk about home ownership.

Is it just because they like to stay in their lane or they don't have kind of

as broad of a view of things as you do?

You know, I think they're scared.

I think that most people and everybody that I talked to that has debt home

ownership seems like it's like going to another country like they feel so

lost and confused about the process that they feel like if they can't

even manage their credit card, how could they manage home ownership?

But what they don't realize is, is that home ownership to me, and the way I try

to explain it to people, it's literally like a savings account for yourself.

It's a retirement plan.

It's an asset.

And so the more that you can add assets to your portfolio, that that

really differs from credit card debt.

And so once I can get the big picture to them to see that, listen, paying

your mortgage is more important than paying your credit card.

It's secured versus unsecured.

And once the light bulb goes off, they get it.

And they realize that investing in a home is like investing in

somethings that that's going to appreciate over time, credit card debt

doesn't appreciate it grows, right?

So it's kind of like, You just have to educate people on the difference.

And most people just are not educated enough.

They don't understand or they feel overwhelmed with the

process of homeownership.

Yeah.

And I think, uh, you know, some people are financially sad, more savvier than others.

Uh, some people are.

Obviously have better, uh, you know, I had more ability to, to afford

things, um, you know, than others.

I think that that hurdle exists just with homeownership and with debt.

It's like, why do you think people are so averse to finances and money in general?

I love that question.

You know, it's interesting, but if, if you think about your circle of

individuals that you guys hang out with, I always say this, how often does

anybody really get vulnerable and share?

You know what?

I am really struggling.

We are behind on our mortgage right now.

We are late on our credit cards.

We're barely surviving.

In fact, we're living on our credit cards.

No one talks about it.

It's an ooey topic that no one is comfortable talking about.

And so that's why creating these spaces for individuals.

I love to, the first thing I say when I get on a clarity call with people, um, is.

I want to let you know there is no shame or guilt around your situation.

I'm only here to help you.

And that's such an important piece of the puzzle to create spaces for individuals

to open up because if you can give them permission to do so, as soon as you do

that, they'll share everything with you.

And the same with home ownership, you know, Hey, there's no shame or guilt

around the fact that you're still renting, but tell me what your biggest fears

are with home ownership and let's walk you through that process and get you

connected with someone that can get you in a home so you're not just flushing your

money down the toilet, renting, right?

I think

people can't get to where we want them to get to

without them first getting past where you want them to get to.

So, I mean, you know, like us even bringing you on is all part of, I

mean, we've talked about people's biggest hurdles of labor objections

to being able to buy a house or why they think they can't, or why

I think it's just unattainable.

And a lot of times it's like millennials, and now the upcoming Gen Z too, is

that they just feel like there's, they have too much debt with student

loans or just too much, you know.

Credit card debt are just, their credit's not great.

So, you know, going to somebody who can actually talk to the debt and, you know,

fix that problem in order to even make it attainable, I think is a huge piece.

And you're right.

People just don't talk about it.

I think there's pride involved in it too.

Yeah.

It's shame.

It's shame

and guilt.

And I will say this much, man.

Men don't talk about it.

I mean, especially the men, I feel like the, I don't know if that's

your experience, Amber, but I, I know that, you know, you know, they

don't talk about on the golf course or talk about it at the bar, they're

like, yeah, I'm behind on my mortgage.

You know, uh, I got, you know, they'll, they'll complain about

their spouse spending too much money, but they'll never go as far to say.

Yeah.

And we're poor and we're not going to be able to make our mortgage payment

this month, like it doesn't go that far.

Yeah.

People really don't like to say it.

They're late too.

I mean, I have a friend, you know, wanted to be able to move.

And I went through all sorts of hurdles to be able to get something available

for her did, and then, you know, come to find out like, you know, the secrets

come out once everything is run through the mortgage company and, you know, the

near episode, the secret spending, it's like, I was really surprised to hear

you say 42 percent of couples, like have some sort of financial secret.

That they don't disclose with each other.

And you know, it's, it, that blew my mind because when somebody is going to

apply for a mortgage, it's all going to come out anyway, and you said like,

instead

of saving your account, like let's save your marriage first.

And it's like, cause yeah, that can derail real fast.

Oh, I mean, I can't tell you the amount of calls

that I've had with individuals.

And to your point, Seth, about men.

I'll tell you, I would say 80 percent of my calls are women.

They're females because they're the ones that are managing the bills.

They're the ones that see everything.

They're the ones that have to bear the weight of the debt.

And a lot of times they're the ones spending to the extent that

their husband does not know, right?

It's been very few instances to where I'll hear a male say he's

spending and his wife doesn't know.

It's typically the females who.

They're at home.

They've got the cards.

They're spinning way beyond their means.

Their husband doesn't know.

And it's just like, wait, let's hit the pause button for a minute here.

Because while the death's one thing, like, the secrets is another.

And secrets to me are killers.

Like, they will steal, kill, and destroy anything about a relationship or marriage.

To your point, I love what you said, Jennifer, about they know when you

go to apply for a mortgage, it's like laying the truth out on the table,

you know,

and so it's, it's really helping people

to come together as a couple.

And we talked about that stuff a little bit.

Is like if they understood, if you came together, your money's going to compound

a lot faster rather than work separately.

Right.

Or be on different pages financially.

So what do you suggest for, let's say a newly married

couple, they're commingling funds if they haven't done it already.

I know a lot of unmarried couples commingle funds, but what do

you think sets a couple up best for success financially?

Uh, you know, having their own money or Just putting it all together and

talking, you know, and talking about it.

Yeah.

Great question.

And I, you know, I'm a little bit of a different scenario because both my husband

and I were business partners along with being married, which is not easy to do.

And so for the most part, if I could go back and redo it, if I could go

back to day one, I would tell people, if you're married, Put all your money

together, let it work together from the very beginning, because as soon as you

start operating in the space of, well, yeah, we do have some joint accounts,

but we also have our own money, right?

That can be very dangerous to couples.

And so I think what's important is that if you are married out there

that you come together, you unite, you sit down from the very beginning, I

would even say, pull a credit report.

Puller credit report.

You know, you can get a free copy every single year at annualcreditreport.

com.

And I tell anyone I talked to, to do that as a couple, sit down, lay out a

financial plan and a goal for yourself.

And if you're getting married and you're like, listen, we want to be in a home

in two years, set that goal, but back out of it and look over your reports and

say, what do we need to do to get here?

I think for the most part, you know, I always tell people when

they're going into homeownership is.

You want to try to have 20 percent down and you want your debt to income ratios to

be intact to avoid PMI, to get a low rate.

And so I'm sure you guys say the same thing on your side.

Um, and so in order to do that, it's not going to happen overnight.

You've got to look at the credit reports and give yourself a

timeline and live into it.

Yeah.

I think you said that because it's actually, you know, it goes into

everything that we tell people that if you have a goal to either, whether you

like already own and you want to sell and move, or if you're renting and you

want to buy or wherever you are, that there's no such thing as too soon.

And like, those are the conversations to have ahead of time.

And you kind of take the same approach of like, Hey, It hit it

early and, you know, have to sit down and have those conversations,

put everything out on the table.

So we do something similar in terms of you sit down, we have a buyer questionnaire.

We just did an episode on that actually, um, that just got released, but sit down

together as a couple, we send one copy.

So that they can sit down and these things have to come up and

it prompts the conversations to be happening, to be able to get on the

same page as far as what they want.

And I think they need to take the same approach as far as debt goes.

Yeah.

I

actually think it should be a prerequisite for people get married.

Like they have to come clean with where they are financially

because it's a deal breaker.

Right?

That's, that's nuts to me.

I mean, I mean, I moved in with my wife about four years ago.

Three years before we got married and I remember seeing,

um, she's going to kill me.

Uh, but I, I remember, I won't say the amount, but there

was a credit card bill and.

I remember looking at him like, what is this?

And you know, she's like, Oh, I have a credit, you know, I have

a, plan with the credit card.

I was like, I'm sure they've got a plan for you.

I was like, we're not following that plan.

Um, and, but even after that, we, we were able to get on, we, we, we knew

what we made, how much money we had, like everything before we got married.

It just was crazy to me that it's like, people will get married and sorry anyways.

You know, I mean, everyone can do what they want to do, but it's like, it's

really like you get married and then, Oh, if someone pops out of their hatch

and says, Oh, I've got, you know, this credit card and this credit card.

And it's just like, I could just see that being a very, very hard

thing to start a marriage off.

Well, yeah, it's kind of sets the precedent of like, you know, if

you can't trust them financially, like, think of all the other areas or if they're

holding something back or not sharing.

Right.

It's like, it's a secret.

And so, like I say, secrets, they'll kill anything.

So, um, Yeah.

I mean, finances, it's a touchy topic.

It's a very shame and guilt converse conversation for most couples.

But once it's had, it's literally like the power of it comes off of you.

And that's what I tell people.

If you can just have the conversation, if you can just be vulnerable and

really open up and share where you guys are financially, then everything will

change from there on out everything.

But until that happens, it just gets worse and worse.

Yeah, I don't, I don't disagree.

I mean, I saw a poll and this is, this is older, it's like pre COVID, but

it was, they asked like a thousand couples and they were more work.

They were more willing to talk about their sex lives openly with

the pollster than their financial.

Isn't that crazy?

Yeah.

But I could, I could see I've had enough onboarding calls

where I've actually had what Jen talks about where the lender will ask like,

well, how much, what's credit card look like and she'll be in a whole sake.

Well, we got about 7000 on this card and she'll turn and

be like, what or the opposite.

And I think a lot of people don't actually want to engage the home home buying

process because they know that a lender is going to ask their ask about their secret.

Yeah.

And men, and men, I am telling you men, men are, they

are, they do not like to be judged.

They don't like to be, you know, vulnerable or I don't think

it's as much of like, Hey, I don't want to tell my secret.

I just think that men really don't want to be seen as a failure.

I think that that's a big thing where like men just don't, I

think they, they equate debt.

They equate financial irresponsibility to I'm not, I'm failing.

I'm not able to provide, I'm off the rails.

And I don't know if you agree, Amber, but that, that's kind of my experience

with some of the people I've worked with.

No, I agree.

I think men actually, they don't want to even know, like they really would

rather not know where they are because it's too much to bear for their family.

And to your point, they do feel responsible.

So the less that they know, but what that does in turn is put a lot on

the wife and the wife carries the weight of, we have so much debt.

I mean, I talked to individuals and women who are trying to pay

the bills and I'll hear them say, Everything that we're making right

now is going to minimum payments.

Like we only have a hundred dollars left at the end of the month.

And like, I just think about that.

And I, and I always say to them, what is the total you're

paying just in minimum payments?

And they'll do the math for some people, Seth, it's like 2, 000 a month.

And then I asked the question, what would you do with that 2000 a month if you

weren't spending it on minimum payments?

And to hear some of them, like, they can't even imagine for a

2nd, what that would do to them.

But what the bigger thing is for most is.

Yeah.

Financially, it's hurting you, but your health, the stress that you're

under because you only have a hundred dollars left at the end of the month

because of your debt killing you.

And that's the biggest factor is that when you can stop and recognize it's

not just the financial piece, it's the emotional and the physical wellness that

it's costing you because you're carrying all of this and don't see a way out.

Yeah, well, I mean, I'll go ahead and

solve that.

So, I mean, with, I mean, you've been doing this for quite a while.

So in recent years, now that the cost of everything has just gone through

the roof, have you been having more and more of these conversations and

what kind of like drastic difference has there been in the amount of debt

that people are coming to you about?

Well, you know, the economy right now is skyrocket as far as like

the cost of goods, the cost of living.

We've seen 50 percent increase in things at the grocery store.

But the truth of the matter is, is that people aren't making more money.

So when eggs go up 50 percent they still have to buy eggs and

they're paying for it somehow.

So in turn, what we're seeing is credit card debt is continuing to be on the rise.

Um, You know, there are seasons and there's past years to where you've seen

a decline in the amount of debt, right?

When the economy was doing better.

But don't be fooled.

We're not doing great and people are surviving right now.

And so whatever that looks like, they'll put it on their credit cards

thinking that who really cares?

We have to put food on the table for our kids.

You know, I'll tell people one of the biggest things right now with trying

to survive, the best things you can do is look for credit cards that will

0 percent interest introductory rate.

And do some balance transfers of some of these higher interest cards that buys

you time to pay off the debt without occurring, accruing more interest.

And so if there are listeners on here that are listening, you're like, I

already have all this credit card debt.

You know, my first piece of advice would be go try to consolidate that onto a zero

percent interest balance transfer, not because you need another credit card, but

just transfer all those balances over.

And attack it aggressively to try to pay it down quickly without a

current accruing more interest.

Yeah, I, I, I agree with that.

I know there's, I've had clients in the past who, you know, they're

sitting there with 27 percent interest rate, uh, on like, you know,

14, 000 worth of credit card debt.

I'm sure you've seen much worse, but.

I'm like, listen, like you almost need to take like a militaristic approach.

It's like, I like what you said is attack it.

Like you have to go to war with this thing.

That's right.

In fact, Jen and I have a, uh, a client where I'll just check.

He's paying down credit card debt right now.

And I will literally say like, how's the war going?

Like how's the war effort, you know, and he's a guy and a guy, he, he's like

a very conservative, like, you know, he just wants to buy a house in the woods

and, you know, and hunt and do all that.

So, so I, I try to cater my messaging to like something he relate to, but I agree.

I mean, how much do you think.

There's like a herd mentality though.

And I've actually, I've always wanted to know this, like where people are

like, well, everyone else is doing it.

And I feel like if everyone, someone else has figured this out.

So what I'm doing isn't like so bad.

Like, is that a thing where people have like kind of that herd mentality?

Yeah.

And I think just the nature of credit cards in general, it's unsecured, but

you can't bleed blood out of a turnip.

It's unsecured credit card debt.

And if it's not paid, then the banks write off the bad debt,

they get the tax deduction, and then they sell it to a collection

agency for pennies on the dollar.

And those 15 hour employees go after attacking individuals and consumers via

their phones and harassing them to get the payments because they've just purchased

the debt for pennies on the dollar.

It's a big business.

So I don't think there's much fear associated with, Oh, well, I'm

just going to use the credit card and if I can pay it, I can pay it.

And if not, Oh, well, but.

The result of that is a credit score that will keep them in bondage, right?

And keep them renting for a very long time because they're not going to

be able to purchase a home and take advantage of a low interest rate.

And so that's what I try to get people to see they are right.

Yes, it is unsecured.

However, get out of the situation and hit the reset button, right?

Hit the reset button, flip your script.

I say that a lot to people and start to build wealth because as

soon as you can respect the dollar.

Then that's when you'll start to build wealth, whether it's through homeownership

or high yield savings accounts, another vehicle that I always share with people,

even if you only have 10, it's more about the discipline of setting it up and doing

it and putting it on auto so that you're starting to build wealth rather than

funnel everything to pay credit cards.

Yeah, I, I, I completely agree with everything you just said.

And also I have a question, another question though, because we talked to

a lot of people who already own homes.

A

lot of our, our niche is about upsizers, meaning people who want

to, like, you know, they bought that starter home and now they're finding that

they're stuck in a house that is going to, I guess, eventually now I guess they

just sit there and resign themselves to, Hey, this is going to be our forever home.

Like, what do you tell existing homeowners who not only have like the credit card

debt piling up, but they're also trying to service a mortgage at the same time.

Like, what is your advice for those people?

Um, approaching that situation.

That is a great question because one of the biggest things I

see people do, it's a huge mistake is they'll suck out equity in their home

to pay off their credit card debt.

Why would you ever make unsecured credit card debt secure by

taking equity out of your home?

You don't.

And instead, look at your home as almost like a stepping stone, right?

The bigger the risk, the bigger the reward in homeownership.

In my opinion, I always tell people, if you go into a home as a starter

home, um, Then you know what, give yourself three years there and as

it appreciates, look to upgrade, not just because you want a bigger home.

And it's not about the bigger home.

It's about if you can sell that home and make a decent profit, put a hundred

percent of that profit into the next step up because it's going to appreciate even

more right at the higher, higher bracket.

And so keep doing that.

And that is a true wealth building tool.

I watched my daughter and son in law do that.

They got married, they got a starter home.

When the market was hot, they took their appreciation and

invested in a more expensive home.

Now that one's appreciating.

And so it's like, take advantage of the market, take advantage

when the market is hot.

And so you've just got to kind of like watch what's happening and move with it.

People are scared.

They think that we've got to stay.

This is our forever home.

But you know what?

If you want to build, well, jump out there, look, get an appraisal done.

What is your home worth?

How much equity do you have sitting there?

By the way.

Don't just feel stifled with your primary residence.

If you have equity sitting there, I can't think of anything better than to take that

equity and purchase investment properties.

and create passive income with investment properties.

And so it, there's always opportunities with homeownership.

Yeah.

I, and I, I agree with you because I think that the people get siloed.

They, they, they see their Yahoo or Google newsfeed out.

It's like affordability is at the worst level ever.

Um, have you approached or have you had a lot of people contact, you

know, that you've spoken to talk about the, like their interest rates.

So, you know, there's this lock in effect where people were saying, well, I've got

this 3 percent rate and, you know, going and trading up for a 7 percent rate.

What do you say to those people and do you advise them to do that?

You know, that's a tough one because interest rates,

they fluctuate and you're not married to the interest rate, by the way.

You're married to the house.

You're just dating the interest rate.

That's how I try to tell it to people.

You can refinance it at any point in time and get a better rate.

So I just want

to make sure that everybody hears this though,

that this is not a real estate professional who is also agreeing to

marry the house and to date the rate.

Just want to put that out there.

And so what you're doing is, is The house is going to

appreciate regardless of the rate.

What you do is you own the home because it's an investment and you can

refinance it when rates get better.

It's all about, you know, I think people get caught up too much about interest

rates, but homeownership is homeownership and appreciation is appreciation.

Oh, and P.

S.

the taxes or the, you get a tax deduction on the interest you're paying.

So it's not like it's free.

For nothing.

It's so much better than renting that you're not getting any

deduction for, by the way.

Yeah.

And something we remind our clients to is it's like, you know, sometime and we don't

try to discount the cost of a new interest rate or but sometimes like you really

got to move out of that school district or like you got a 40 minute commute.

And like just moving like your whole quality of life, like, you know,

especially people with young kids, it's like, yeah, are you going to drive home

to 40 minutes to the baseball field?

Or would you rather drive 10 minutes home to the baseball field, you know,

and that logistical hurdle and those legit, you know, those types of things

that can happen, you know, those other factors, I know a lot of people were

saying, wow, I can't, you know, upsize my, you know, I don't want to, I don't want

to, um, uh, you know, I don't, I don't want to take on a higher interest rate.

The other thing, a lot of people talk about is.

The fact that I don't think necessarily people need to upsize like just

because you live in a 1500 square foot house doesn't mean you need to buy

the 2200 square foot house if you're comfortable where you are, but you

swap the house by the way, and like to your point of a few minutes ago.

You've got a bullet load of equity.

Like it's not all doom and gloom.

Like there's a ton of money that you haven't done anything to make by

other people buying and selling homes.

You've built all this value, so it's not going to be like how you went in.

You have all this cash to bring to get that payment down to where it needs to be,

even if it is at a higher interest rate.

Right.

And the truth of the matter is, is if you leave it sitting in the home, You

might as well bury it in the backyard.

What is it doing for you?

Right.

So put it to work, put it to work somewhere and get it, you know, to

where it's making money for you.

That's passive income.

Um, so whether it's upgrading to another home or buying investment properties.

It's great to have equity, but do something with it if

you want it to work for you.

Yeah, I would, I would totally agree.

So, um, okay, well, I, I think we can wrap it up, but, uh, you

know, this has been super helpful.

Where can people find you, Amber, if they are quietly and carefully

listening to this episode and wondering where the hell they're going to

turn for any kind of debt relief?

Yeah.

So if anybody's listening and they find themselves trapped with

credit card debt, please reach out.

It's, we have reduced my debts.

com.

And they can go there.

We are team offers a free 15 minute clarity call, and that just allows

us to hear what they're experiencing and help them and point them in

the right direction to get them on the path to financial freedom.

So that we can set them up to come see you guys to purchase a home.

So yeah, it's free.

It's free.

You know, you can't go wrong.

You can also follow me on Instagram.

It's Amberdunk, D U N C.

Um, and I'm there.

So either way, just reach out, ask for help.

And the podcast Life After Debt, which the link is actually on my site.

But, you know, the hardest part is asking for help.

Once they book that call, what I found is they feel like a

million bucks when they hang up.

Yeah.

And I think that's also important to stress that if conversation is free,

like same with us, same as you getting advice and sitting down to have a

conversation, it's free and it's valuable.

So,

yes.

Okay.

Yes.

guys so much for having me on today.

Thanks for being our first virtual interview.

Yes.

All right.

Bye.

See you guys.