Voiceover: [00:00:00] Welcome to Metcalf Money Moment, the podcast, unlock financial clarity and confidence with expert insights to achieve your goals hosted by Jeb Graham, Ethan [00:00:15] Hutcheson, and Eric Wymore. Each episode offers decades of combined expertise in wealth management, retirement planning, and more. Join us for practical strategies to inspire your financial journey.

Now your hosts.[00:00:30]

Jeb Graham: Welcome to Metcalf Money Moment. Podcast. My name is Jeb Graham with Metcalfe Partners Wealth Management. I've got partners and co hosts, uh, Eric Wymore and Ethan Hutchison in here with me today. Uh, how are you boys doing? Doing good. [00:00:45] Yeah. I don't know what day of the week this podcast is coming out, but it's Friday here today, which is great.

So we got the, after a long week of a snowstorm and all that, uh, we're ready for the weekend and. Uh, you know, we were talking and basically, uh, one of the things, a couple of things [00:01:00] we've been through this last few weeks is we've had a few clients coming in saying that they want to retire early. Um, you know, and I guess everyone can define what early retirement is to them.

Is it 40 years old or is it 50 years old or is it 60 years old? Um, but anyway, [00:01:15] so, so it kind of got us thinking about, about things that are important when people are going to retire early, uh, as far as, you know, a couple of statistics, according to the guardian benefit, the average. Retirement age in the United States is 62 years old.

Um, which was [00:01:30] surprising to me. I thought it would be later than that. You know, if you think about a full social security age for most people is going to be, uh, 67 years old. Um, and then when you talk about people that retire earlier than plan. So when you talk about early retirement, there's two.[00:01:45]

Categories of people, there's the people that plan for and want to retire early. And then there's the people, and we, we've had a number of clients that are in this boat is that they get kind of forced into retirement early. Um, and approximately 58 percent of retirees. [00:02:00] Leave the workforce earlier than they anticipated they were going to, according to Yahoo finance.

Okay. And then here's the big one, the desire versus the confidence to retire early while 59 percent of Americans wish to retire before the age of [00:02:15] 65, only 40 percent are confident and believe that they'll be able to do so according to the financial brand. So that's. You know, those statistics are, are out there.

So when you're talking about retiring early, I, it made me think about a client that we had that retired early a [00:02:30] couple of years ago. So basically we had a garment executive and we had, uh, his spouse was a healthcare, uh, administrator. And they were 58 years old and they decided they wanted to retire.

They'd saved about 2 million. So they had a pretty [00:02:45] nice nest egg and they're basically, you know, kind of. Thinking about retiring earlier. And we figured out that there was four main things that really needed to be addressed when we started this conversation. Number one was how much money do you need to retire?

That's kind of [00:03:00] the question out there. Obviously, Eric, you're going to hit on that here in a minute that, you know, it's, it's different for everybody. There's not a blanket rule on that and we'll go through that. And then there's. Uh, when and how do you get to access the different types of accounts? You know, most people that we have that are clients have [00:03:15] IRAs, Roth IRAs, non retirement accounts, employer sponsored plans.

Ethan is going to hit on the different types of accounts. How do you access them? When can you access them? And then another big one is obviously social security. Uh, when do we, when do we take social security? When can you take social [00:03:30] security? What's the benefit of taking it early versus later. And then you have what I consider the biggest elephant in the room.

And we actually had, um, a couple of gentlemen from LNI insurance to talk a little bit about that. Uh, but it's, it's health insurance when you retire early. [00:03:45] Uh, you know, how do you, how much is health insurance going to cost you and, and how do you get health insurance? So, um, let's talk, let's start with that big one, which is how much money, you know, you see, we see TV commercials of, you know, what's your number and all that.

So, so I think that's a [00:04:00] good one to start on there. Absolutely. I'm, I'm so glad

Eric Wymore: that we're doing this topic because it's a lot of clients, you know, a hundred percent of people want to retire, you know, maybe 99. 9. A lot, almost every single person wants to [00:04:15] retire someday and it's such a great topic, so I'm glad to be a part of it.

Uh, but you know, we say the same thing with every individual that we meet. Everything starts with a financial plan. We are a planning based firm. First, we want to figure out [00:04:30] what it is that you're trying to accomplish, what it is that you're doing to accomplish that and where you're, where you're starting at.

And. The, generally speaking, the first question that we ask when it comes to retirement planning or a financial plan is what is your [00:04:45] monthly expenses? How much money do you need on a net basis to make your war go around, to pay your bills, you know? Put a little in savings, whatever you're wanting to do, go on vacations, you know, travel to see grandkids [00:05:00] and whatnot, how much do you need on a monthly basis?

And then we figure out where all the different income sources and where we're going to get that money. We're going to talk about that a little bit later here in the show. Um, but a general rule of thumb, and we probably, you guys [00:05:15] have probably seen this and a lot of it goes into, you know, A lot of it goes into this number, but generally speaking, you can take a withdrawal rate of about 4 percent off of your investments, uh, and that's a comfortable amount and, and, and how you get to that number is basically if [00:05:30] you're, you know, having a six or 7 percent rate of return overall, on average on your investments, you take out 4%, you got a little bit in there every year to continue to grow, um, to have a, you know, cause 4 to need a little bit of an [00:05:45] inflation factor in there as well.

So it's a great rule of thumb, you know, and we've mentioned before, if you're, if you're retiring early, probably you'd be a little bit lower than four percent.

Jeb Graham: A hundred percent. You know, the other thing we were talking about too, is, is [00:06:00] for different clients, they have different goals. You know, some, some, a lot of our clients say, Hey, well, I want to give as much money to my beneficiaries as possible.

And some of them say, Hey, I want to spend my last dollar. The day that I die, and maybe that's different for each one of them. So maybe the person that [00:06:15] wants to spend their last dollar, maybe they can actually spend six or seven or 8 percent of their portfolio, depending upon what age they are when they retire, right?

Absolutely.

Eric Wymore: And it changes too. That's the beautiful thing about a financial plan is it's living, breathing animal, and it's going to change. And it's going to be, you know, we're going to [00:06:30] modify those as, as time goes on. And, you know, if, if you're retired at 55 or, or, uh, You know, a young active 60 year old, you're probably going to want to do some more active things.

Probably going to have a little bit more expenses in the beginning parts of your, [00:06:45] of your retirement versus later on in life. And, and, you know, the other thing consider is like your life. Again, that kind of goes into like lifestyle choices, location, you know, and all those. Some of those, even those unexpected expenses, we've talked about this [00:07:00] kind of joked about a little bit.

There's always that big bill, maybe a 50, 60, 000 retirement bill that comes along. And that's, that's the dream car or the, Hey, I'm at home now. I really want to redo this bathroom or [00:07:15] even did you have someone that wanted to build a, or get a boat or an RV or

Ethan Hutchenson: a boat, a big assessment assessment of the country club that comes out of nowhere.

There's a lot of different. Different factors in that

Jeb Graham: when you're retired, you've got plenty of time on your hands to find things to spend money on, right? [00:07:30] Absolutely.

Eric Wymore: Hey, we're recording on Friday. It's Friday, every day. Enjoy it. And that's stuff that you've got to plan for. And, and, and keep in mind if you're working and you know that you're going to want to, [00:07:45] uh, have that vacation home, you know, or if you're going to want to.

You know, Sunbird in Texas or Florida or wherever it's okay to start cash flowing us those projects, whatever that project might be. If you want to buy a fishing boat, whatever it is, you [00:08:00] know, it's okay to start while you're working, to start building up that savings, you know, for, for, for those expensive items, um, while you're working in cashflow.

Jeb Graham: I kind of like what you're saying there too, is really what you're we're doing is we're backing into the number, right? So, [00:08:15] so if we have somebody that's going to retire. Well, first of all, if they're going to retire at age 55, they've got a long time before they can take social security. So that's a whole nother thing that you're thinking about, but let's just say somebody's retiring when they're taking social security.

Well, they've got, say, they've got 60, 000 of social [00:08:30] security between themselves and their spouse, and they need 100, 000 to live every year. We know they need 40, 000 out of their portfolio. So right there, we're kind of backing into that million dollar number, but that's what that planning software does for us, which is, [00:08:45] um, you know, basically we can kind of put that, put that in there and it's just going to show us a long term cashflow report.

And it's going to say either you can or you can't retire. And here's all the different scenarios of maybe you have. A ton of money at age 100, if that's when we're going to terminate the [00:09:00] plan. And maybe you run out of money at age 78 years old, which is a problem. And that's, that's the beauty of kind of putting together their financial plans for people.

Eric Wymore: You know, we had a client the other day that she said that retirement is freedom. And that spoke. You know, echoed throughout this [00:09:15] office, exactly what you're wanting to do. Is it just, just freedom to, to do what you want to do essentially and not have to work if you don't want to. And I thought that was fantastic, but obviously there's a lot of complex situations that you can, you know, when we get into the financial planning and [00:09:30] anything, there's many, many, many ways that you can start drawing down your, your, your.

Finances. And why don't you share a couple of, you know, suggestions or tips with us? Yeah.

Ethan Hutchenson: So, um, the, the main topic, you know, the overarching theme is, is when can I access [00:09:45] my different accounts? Um, I'd say 90 percent of the population that we work with at some point in time had. Has or had a 401k, um, whether they're a business owner and that's a solo K or they work for a corporation, that's a standard, uh, Arisa sponsored [00:10:00] 401k.

Most people have those. Those are all pre tax. Um, and then if you roll that 401k anywhere outside of the 401k. Uh, it'll go to like a traditional IRA or a Roth IRA. So those are the, the three main qualified accounts, [00:10:15] um, that most people have buckets of money in a majority of people have a large sum or overwhelming amount of their overall nest egg in a pre tax account.

Jeb Graham: And that's just because they didn't meet us early enough, right?

Ethan Hutchenson: Exactly. They didn't sit down and think [00:10:30] about that, that day, like, Hey, I do want to retire at 50 or I want to retire at 55. Well, if you're 35, I'm 35 years old. If I want to retire at 55, what I do today and where I save today can really help me dictate.

Does that 55 [00:10:45] number. Um, so traditional IRAs and 401ks are great. You get company matches, great investment options, tax deductions for contribution. There's all these fun things that come along with those accounts, but there's the big glaring 59 and a half number that's out there. [00:11:00] So if you retire at 55, how are you going to access that money?

Well, there's a 10 percent early withdrawal penalty alongside ordinary income taxes that you're having to pay. So, um, it can be done. There are ways around it. Uh, we do work with a lot of, of, [00:11:15] uh, people. Individuals or families in the area that have large ESOP plans or just large buckets of money. They've done a great job maxing their 401k out.

Um, and they're kind of like, Hey, I've got, I'm 50 years old. I've got four or 5 million in my pre tax accounts. I [00:11:30] really think I can retire. How do I do that? Um, there's an IRS section out there called rule 72 T. It allows you to take. Premature distributions out of your IRA without having to pay that 10 percent early withdrawal penalty.

Now [00:11:45] you do have ordinary income taxes. There are a lot of rules, a lot of stipulations around 72 T, but it's a great tool that a lot of our clients use when they're younger, 50, 55 and have that big pre tax nest egg.

Jeb Graham: I know we went through a client that we were working with [00:12:00] just a couple of weeks ago who, um, I can't remember what was the age.

I think she was 55, just turned 50, or just, I'm sorry, because there was another one that was 55. So just turn 50. think about that, you just turned 50. And this is a, an individual that works [00:12:15] at a large engineering firm has a really big ESOP plan. And so we're kind of going through this and we're looking at 72 T not only that we can, we kind of decided that there's some things you could do with 72 T because there's so many different options with 72 T whether you take a [00:12:30] small amount or a large amount.

And, uh, the reality is, is she wanted to be able to get as much out of that IRA early as possible at a low tax bracket. Right? So we were saying, Hey, maybe we want to take the maximum amount of that 72 T. So then we can build that [00:12:45] non retirement bucket that you're talking about, because even though she doesn't need all the money, we know we're getting it out at that 12 percent tax bracket.

She's not having to pay, um. Any penalties or anything like that? So it's, that's where I think our advice comes in with people is not just, [00:13:00] you know, how do you retire, but it's how do you retire, right? And how do you really manage that tax situation as well? Absolutely. You spend

Eric Wymore: all your working days just trying to squirrel away as much money as you can in this pre tax to lower your taxable income.

And then [00:13:15] there's just this beautiful window of time where your income. It's very low and you try to take it all out as fast as you can, as much as you can, at least get it out of the tax qualified account into something else at the lowest tax rate. I mean, it's a, it's a [00:13:30] fantastic strategy.

Ethan Hutchenson: Yeah. Yeah. Pre tax isn't, isn't the worst bucket, right?

If you're deferring your income at a 28 percent level and pulling out at 12%. There's a good spread there that you're working. So pre tax isn't the devil. Like some people think it is. I know Roth IRAs are definitely a hot [00:13:45] topic, and that's another bucket of money. Um, a lot of people have Roth IRAs as well, whether it's a Roth 401k, which if you don't have that, or don't think you have that, you should talk to someone because you probably do now Roth.

401ks are becoming increasingly popular. Um, so that's one [00:14:00] version of a 401k you could have, but a Roth IRA. Let's say I am 45 years old. I know I want to retire at 55 and my income is such that I can do back to a Roth contributions, or I can just make simple standard Roth contributions. [00:14:15] You can actually pull your principal.

Out of your Roth penalty free and tax free because you've already paid your taxes if the account's been open for longer than five years. So if you've put 7, 000 away every single year from the age of 45 to [00:14:30] 55, you've got about 70, 000 there that you can get into that Roth IRA and access that. Um, so that's another one.

One of our favorite accounts. One of the most underlooked accounts that I think is out there is a non retirement account also known as a [00:14:45] trust account Brokerage account joint account TOD. I can run off more acronyms if we need to but at the end of the day It's it's a standard plain jane investment account that does not have that 59 and a half age limitation on it You could put a million dollars in there today [00:15:00] Take a million dollars out of there tomorrow.

And the only thing you really have to worry about is capital gains taxes. So for our younger clients in my age group, 35 to 45, we're kind of thinking, Hey, you know, 55 would be a great time to retire. Let's start beefing up [00:15:15] that non retirement account now so that when we get to age 55, we don't have to worry about 72 T we don't have to worry about.

Cut, uh, early penalties for withdrawal or any of that. We can just live off of our non retirement bucket of money, pull money out of our other [00:15:30] accounts, do some Roth conversions and be really efficient with our low income at that point in time. So never neglect and don't discount the, the, the long term effect of those non retirement accounts.

Jeb Graham: Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I, I would say. And kind of what I'm hearing from you [00:15:45] there is the word flexibility, right? So when you think about the more non retirement money or trust money or TOD money or whatever you want to call it that you have when you retire, the more flexibility you have, and the more we can kind of manipulate people's tax situation, whether that's doing [00:16:00] Roth conversions, whether that's just.

Keeping their, their health insurance premiums low, uh, or whatever it is. When we've got that bucket of money, we have a lot, a lot of flexibility, uh, to be able to do a lot of things. So, you know, and that brings us into our next one, which is social security. You know, that's a [00:16:15] big, um, leg on the stool for people is social security.

Every time. People retire. They want to know number one. That's usually one of the first questions they ask us, right? Is when do I take social security? Especially if they're going to retire early, if you're going to retire at age 58, we were talking about this earlier. [00:16:30] If you're going to retire at age 58, then you've got four years before you're even allowed to take social security.

So we've got an account for that. And you basically, during that time, you're going to be taking money out of your investment. So to give you kind of a brief overview of social security. Uh, so the first time that you can [00:16:45] take social security is at age 62. Okay. And then. Basically, you can take it anytime between age 62 and age 70 for most people.

Their full retirement age is going to be age 67. Okay. So there is [00:17:00] no benefit whatsoever for waiting after age 70 to take social security. So you definitely want to turn it on at age 70 for each year that you wait. After 62, you get about an 8 percent bump in social security, meaning, um, you know, every year [00:17:15] that you wait, it's a, it's about 8 percent higher than it was the year before.

So, um, so when you think about that, if your full retirement age is age 67 and you turn it on at age 62, you're taking about a [00:17:30] 35 ish percent discount of what the, your full retirement age benefit is. And if you wait until age 70, You're getting a little over 30 percent more than you would have gotten at your full retirement age.

So figuring out when to take it's a big deal. [00:17:45] Here's something that's a really big deal for early retirees. Okay. It's because we, and we've all seen it. We have our clients that retire and they like being retired, but they don't want to be fully retired. So they want to go back to work. Okay. So if you're a person that does that, [00:18:00] you got to be very careful about taking social security before your full retirement age.

Uh, because if you take social security at age 62 or 63 or 64 or 65, whatever it is early, you have an earnings limit. Okay. And what that means in 2024, if you made [00:18:15] 22 more than 22, 320. In 2024, and you were pulling social security for every dollar that you made over that it lowered your social security benefit by 2.

So, and that's only during the period of [00:18:30] time before you hit full retirement age, but you have to be very careful about that. Um, because you, you certainly don't want to get in a situation where you're, when, where you're not only you're lowering, you're permanently lowering your benefit. For your lifetime.

And then [00:18:45] you're also eating into that lower benefit for those few years in early retirement. So you gotta be pretty careful there. Um, the other thing with social security that we get a lot is people always want to know when am I breaking even? Okay. When I say breaking even, they want to [00:19:00] know, you know, if they take it, whether they take it at 62 67.

Or 70, when have I taken the same amount of money out of the social security system? And typically that's gonna be around age 81. Okay. Meaning if you take it [00:19:15] at 62 or you take it at 70, you've taken roughly the same amount of money outta the social security system around that age. 81 is the breakeven.

What what we tell people and what we're big on is we're not as worried about making sure that people. [00:19:30] Take the most money out of social security, because there's so many variables there that we can't control. We don't control. We don't have that, that crystal ball that we're going to know when somebody is going to die.

We don't necessarily know their longevity. So what we want to do is we want it back to kind of Eric. What you were talking about [00:19:45] earlier is we want to build that financial plan. And what we're really worried about is solving for Howard. How do you have the most money? Yeah. Later in life. Okay. How are you maximizing your utility?

And a lot of times that break even. So, so for instance, this client [00:20:00] that's going to retire at age. 62, if they're going to wait to take Social Security at age 67, well, that's five years that they're drawing out of their accounts, right? And so, so really they're now, once they take that higher amount of [00:20:15] Social Security, they have to catch it.

Their retirement accounts have to catch up. In order to maximize that utility. And a lot of times when we're running that, that might not break even tell them till mid nineties, even past age 100. So we really got to take so many different factors into, into [00:20:30] account as to, you know, are you going to work between age 62 and 67?

Uh, you know, how much money do you have saved and how much you're going to have to dig into it into during those years? And when are you going to break even? So, um,

Ethan Hutchenson: Definitely not

Jeb Graham: a one size fits all. It's not, and that's where the [00:20:45] plan just becomes so important, you know, and, and that's something we can reference.

And I,

Eric Wymore: you absolutely mentioned or said it earlier, it is a, you know, with even with that individual that might retire early, it's always a good time to pop to wait [00:21:00] before drawing Social Security just to make sure you don't go back to work for that, for that reduced rate. You know, you can always draw it a little bit later.

You just, you don't know in that first few years, if you retire, if you, you know, it's like, okay, kind of miss it or whatever. And you want to go [00:21:15] back or you get offered a really good job and you know, I can't really shut it off.

Jeb Graham: And we have the perfect example right here in our office, right? We have an employee that retired.

Six or eight months ago. And then, you know, decided that she wants to come back to work part time and that's people do that, you know? [00:21:30] So, yeah, well, let's hit the elephant. Yeah. So you got, you got health insurance. Um. You know, we, we had Matt Sturgeon on earlier, um, or on our last podcast to talk about early, [00:21:45] not only early retirees, but Medicare for people that are not even retiring early.

But that's, you know, to me, that's a, that's a huge deal. I don't know if you guys have other than what. What Matt had to offer. Um, I think the big thing that a lot of us took from it is we want, [00:22:00] we need to make sure we have, you know, the health insurance professional that our clients seeing to make them understand that.

Well, I think when

Eric Wymore: you are, you know, again, planning, planning, planning, I mean, we'll say it till we're blue in the face. If you are, you know, 62, [00:22:15] 63 years old, that's the time to start planning for Medicare, it's not at age 65 when the door, you know, when all of a sudden you're eligible for it. It's. If you want to start planning early, because if there's ways to maneuver your income, you [00:22:30] can actually, there's a, there's a look back.

So the Medicare looks back last two years for your, for your income. And that's how they set some of your prices. Again, as he mentioned, it is different for every single person. So we're not going to get into deep into those weeds. [00:22:45] But the point is when you're 63 years old, that's. When they'll start looking at your income for when you're at 65 to draw, to start Medicare.

So if there's ways that you can manipulate your income, not manipulate, but if you, [00:23:00] if there are ways to reduce your income, um, whether you're working or in retirement, that's what we want to do kind of goes back to the whole plan again, like making sure that it's all set out and healthcare is. You know, a super big

Ethan Hutchenson: expense.

Yeah. It's one of the biggest [00:23:15] expenses over your lifetime, other than taxes. I'd say, I'd say healthcare is right alongside that. Um, you know, definitely go back and listen to, uh, that podcast. Very informative. One thing we didn't touch on in that podcast was HSAs and health savings accounts. Um, they [00:23:30] are extremely beneficial now and even more beneficial in retirement.

They're the only account out there that's triple tax exempt. So you get a tax deduction for putting money into the HSA. It grows tax free. When you pull it out for qualified. Medical expenses. It's also tax free. So adding [00:23:45] that HSA prior to retirement, I think is a really nice strategy as well. For some of those unknown health things that might pop up.

Um, if you have the ability to contribute to an HSA and you're young, you're in your thirties or forties, put as much money in there as you can and let it grow. They're [00:24:00] portable, so you can take them with you. And if you need to have an MRI to get surgery on a rotator cuff, cause you threw it out playing pickleball in retirement, you got a little bit of a nest egg there.

You can go and use those funds to kind of get that stuff taken care of and not really worry about, man, my [00:24:15] premiums are going to go up or I need to hit my deductible. You've got some, some backstop there, I would say.

Jeb Graham: I'll tell you too, to, to add onto that, HSAs have come a long ways in the last few years.

So it used to be that basically you just set up a bank account and that's what your HSA was. Well, now there's, um, You know, there's [00:24:30] HSAs that kind of works like 401k, right? Where you have a bunch of different funds that you can choose from. So you can really kind of think of that, uh, more as a long term investment, as well as, you know, that's kind of your, your health insurance bucket.

And to your point, there's a lot of people out [00:24:45] there playing pickleball, hurting themselves. And, uh, you gotta, you gotta have, have all that stuff. And I tell you one other thing I really took from that, that last podcast with Matt and Phil was, was what Phil was saying is when you're getting ready to think about Medicare, it's, it's, Two years before you [00:25:00] retire and you know, not everybody knows they're going to retire two years before they're going to retire.

But if you do know that, uh, I guess the theme was, is you want to get on that earlier than later. Uh, and I think definitely we want to have a health insurance professional that's involved in the, [00:25:15] in the And the process and the decision making,

Ethan Hutchenson: so to kind of sum things up, Jeb, how, what, you know, kind of run through the bullets or a quick checklists and just, uh, yeah, quick recap of.

Jeb Graham: Yeah. So, so what we talked about and we'll kind of go through this, um, one last time, but [00:25:30] what we talked about was, was early retirement and, and what we've got, uh, the, you know, the four things that you really need to think about are the four things that we're getting a lot of people asking us about is number one is what, what is that?

What's that number? What's my retirement number? Uh, and then we've got, uh, [00:25:45] when can you access your retirement accounts? So you have all these accounts out here. You want to know when to access them. You got to figure out social security. You got to figure out Medicare or you got to figure out how health healthcare.

So, but those are, those are it. And guys, so, uh, [00:26:00] happy Friday. It's been a lot of fun here today, and I think we covered a lot of really good stuff, uh, for our clients. Absolutely. Appreciate it. This is Metcalfe Money Moment, the podcast, and we will see you next time.[00:26:15]

Voiceover: Thanks for tuning in to Metcalfe Money Moment, the podcast. We hope today's episode provided valuable insights to help you unlock financial clarity, confidence, and confidence. And peace of mind for more expert advice and resources, [00:26:30] visit Metcalfe partners. com. Until next time, make every money moment count.

Jim Graham, Ethan Hutchison, and Eric Wymore are registered representatives with insecurities [00:26:45] offered through LPL financial member FINRA SIPC investment advice offered through WCG wealth advisors, a registered investment advisor, WCG wealth advisors, and Metcalfe partners wealth management is a, are separate entities from LPL financial.

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