[00:00:00] Eric Goranson: It's around the house. You do a lot with Fest tool. Yeah. And if I was sitting at the bar, that's the top shelf liquor right there. Mm. Of the high quality stuff. And tell you what, those guys, it's gorgeous stuff my friend. It

[00:00:17] Nick Schiffer: is gorgeous stuff. When you say that, it's funny because like, that's one of the reasons why I like it so much is cuz it looks good, it's sexy and it's super sexy, man.

[00:00:26] Nick Schiffer: And I, and there's so many, so we're refitting our, um, one of our vans, uh, for home care and it's kind of a hodgepodge of different tools and everything does its job like a hundred percent. Like he's got a cart, it goes in like the clients are like, oh this is super organized. And we had a meeting and I'm like, man, yo kind want to be gray.

[00:00:51] Nick Schiffer: And when it comes to remodeling, renovating your home, there is a covered is. [00:01:00]

[00:01:00] Eric Goranson: The house. Welcome to the Round the House Show. This is where we talked everything about your house every single week. Thanks for joining us. Who got a special guest in the studio today? Nick Schiffer. Welcome to Around the House, man.

[00:01:13] Eric Goranson: What's

[00:01:13] Nick Schiffer: up man? I'm glad to be here. Appreciate it. Happy to have ya.

[00:01:17] Eric Goranson: I have seen you on the different n h B stages and everything else. You and I like kind of cross paths between friends and stuff, but never have really spent time

[00:01:25] Nick Schiffer: together. Yeah, I, I, I, as I dug into like who you are and how, like what you do in the industry, I'm like, how have we not met?

[00:01:32] Nick Schiffer: Right. It's, it's, it's, it's interesting, especially I feel like it's, so even when you go to the, the like i b s and things like that, I feel like I see the same people. Right. And it's, and it's people that even live in Boston that I never see in Boston. But then I'll go to a million square foot trade show and I'll bump into 'em six times.

[00:01:52] Nick Schiffer: It's, how does that work? Right? Yeah. I, I don't know. So

[00:01:54] Eric Goranson: yeah, we have a lot of common friends. It's hilarious. Well, man, you have been doing so much good [00:02:00] stuff out there with NS builders and, I mean, you are just legendary in the Boston scene across the US as well. But let's talk about you and your chops a little bit cuz uh, sure.

[00:02:09] Eric Goranson: You do. A lot of the stuff that I love, I, my, my background kitchen designer for 30 years, so I did a lot of the interior modeling stuff. A lot of that kind of stuff that you've done on the, on the, on the remodeling side as well, that luxury home.

[00:02:21] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for me, you know, Especially when we started growing as a business and outside of just being a carpenter or a carpentry business, that's where I, I really kind of sat my, my role into kind of helping design.

[00:02:36] Nick Schiffer: I'm not a designer, I'm not an architect. I don't, I don't have any licensing or training in it, but that's where I started really pushing the, the, the level of detail and how we executed particular things. Um, and that's where, you know, a lot of my mind just kind of got encapsulated by how do we do this better?

[00:02:53] Nick Schiffer: How do we, how do we make this detail better or cooler? Uh, and, and most of the time that works out for me. There's been a handful of [00:03:00] times where I make something quote unquote cooler and it becomes wildly expensive and, uh, a nightmare to maintain. And my guys hate me for it. But the, you know, the point is, is I, I like to challenge the, the normal way of, uh, doing something and constantly question like, how do we do this better?

[00:03:16] Nick Schiffer: What can we do to make this better? Well,

[00:03:19] Eric Goranson: and, and you come from a part of the country where, where the craft is big, you know? Yeah. I mean, I've worked all over the country with, with different people like you have, you know? Mm-hmm. and there's just something about the old world, craftsmanship of the Northeast, and, you know, it's cool.

[00:03:36] Nick Schiffer: It is. And, uh, I've, I guess part of me is a little. Naive to that, where I just think it's normal. And then when I do travel to different parts of the country, people are like, yeah, you're so lucky, man. Like, craftsmanship is like still a thing up there. Like, what do you mean? Like, I'm walking a project here in California and this is pretty awesome.

[00:03:54] Nick Schiffer: I'm like, yeah, man. But it's, it's just different. It's, you know, it's not put together the same way with the same type of [00:04:00] people. They're just not, there's not that many of them, you know, in different parts of the country. And, you know, and I think about that when we talk about it on the po the, the modern craftsman.

[00:04:08] Nick Schiffer: It's, you know, we, we, we co oftentimes talk about the Northeast and like our market. And even when we talk about money, it's, it's really difficult to understand that, you know, a lot of what we talk about doesn't relate to the majority of the popul. It's tough and yeah, and, and, and I, and I feel like we, we, we try to do a good job about, you know, calling that out and, and being true to the fact that we don't know, you know, the entire market across the us.

[00:04:34] Nick Schiffer: But yeah, I mean, I'm, I I I, I do feel fortunate that we are in the Northeast and there's a lot of people that love craftsmanship, and I'm hoping that, you know, what we're doing with creating awareness on social and podcasts and things like that, that we're, you know, encouraging people to get into it. Um, because it, you know, I have a lot of thoughts on this, but it's not a, it's, it's not a, an easy career to [00:05:00] be in.

[00:05:00] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. And it's not something that is, you know, there. This kind of, I don't know if we wanna go down this path, but you know, there's this kind of over glorification of, hey, you can be super wealthy in the trades. And I don't think that that's false, but I do think that there's too much focus on it in the sense that, you know, this isn't a career that you get into because you want to be uber wealthy.

[00:05:24] Nick Schiffer: This is a career that you get into because you are passionate about it and can you make a good living on it? Of course. Can you support your family? Of course. But it's hard work, no matter what. There's way

[00:05:37] Eric Goranson: too much struggle here to be a get rich quick

[00:05:39] Nick Schiffer: scheme, that's for sure. Yeah. And it's very hard work.

[00:05:41] Nick Schiffer: It's very labor intensive and there, there has to be that balance between, yes, I know I can be successful, I know I can make a good living and support my family, but at the expense of the fact that I truly love working with my hands and working with my body and, and, and doing laborous work. [00:06:00] And I think that, you know, That just need, there needs to be a bigger conversation around that because I think a lot of, you know, some people get into, you know, particular trades or, or careers because they think it's the fastest way to wealth and, you know, that it just, it's not, that's not entirely true.

[00:06:19] Nick Schiffer: Especially in, in, in construction related fields. Well, if you

[00:06:23] Eric Goranson: think about it, that's where that craft of craftsmanship comes in, right? Right. It's a craft. Mm-hmm. , and you have, you're always learning that craft. You walk on and do something different. You're learning. I'm learning. There's always a learning process to this.

[00:06:37] Eric Goranson: You're never done learning in

[00:06:39] Nick Schiffer: this craft. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's, and that's one of the best parts, and that's what I love about it, is, you know, everything we do, you know, like I said, I challenge it and, you know, we have material millwork now where, you know, I get to dig into the details with Ken and Ian and James in the shop and, and talk about, you know, how we [00:07:00] make something cooler.

[00:07:01] Nick Schiffer: You know, like, how do we, we're building this pantry right now, that's a big slat wall and there's a po There was a pocket door detailed on it. I'm like, man, it would be really cool if when that door shut, it flushed out with the face of it. So when you step back, it didn't look like there was a door there.

[00:07:16] Nick Schiffer: Nice. And sure enough, we sourced the hardware, tested it, it works, it looks dope. And it's, you know, and was it necessary? No, but it, it, we accomplish, accomplished something different that now, when that end user experiences it, and I think that's a, a key word is like the experience. They have a different experience.

[00:07:37] Nick Schiffer: Yeah.

[00:07:37] Eric Goranson: And I, I wanna go back and make sure that I'm not ripping on here all the crafts people that we have across the US that I'm just saying, oh, you're in Southern California. You're not that. I wanna make sure and not leave that hanging for all you guys out there, but there's just seems to be a, you know, in your area up there, just more of an appreciation to that.

[00:07:55] Eric Goranson: And there are some great people all across the country. Oh,

[00:07:57] Nick Schiffer: a hundred percent. But I just densely populated [00:08:00] up here. Yeah, yeah. Where it's, it's very spread out there. And, you know, I don't know, I, I, it's, it's something I struggle with, you know, just at, at trying to position myself as someone that wants to help the industry as a whole and be, you know, incredibly aware of all these markets and, and what type of people are in these trades.

[00:08:21] Nick Schiffer: And yeah, I mean, I'm with you. I'm not ripping on any part of the country or any, any market or anyone that's in different parts that truly does love the craft. It's just that it's, you know, at least it's something that's communicated pretty often that the northeast is densely. Packed with people that appreciate craft on both sides more than other areas.

[00:08:40] Nick Schiffer: You

[00:08:40] Eric Goranson: know, it's funny, and I learned this a few years ago. I was up in Boston speaking for the NR N R L A up there for the Northeastern Retail Lumber Association up there. I was talking home tech to a bunch of lumber yards that weren't ready to talk home tech yet. Mm-hmm. Cuz they're very old school. Yeah.

[00:08:58] Eric Goranson: And I appreciate that. [00:09:00] But they weren't ready to consume that yet. So I've seen the other side of that too, where sometimes technology gets to be a little slower because that old world craftsmanship is the way to

[00:09:10] go.

[00:09:11] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. It's, it, it's interesting man. You know, I think we, you know, as when you talk about tech, right?

[00:09:18] Nick Schiffer: And, and I think about software and, and how things are developing so quickly. There's all of the, I mean, An enormous amount of people in the, the tech space for construction right now. And there's, everyone is, is coming out with a new, new idea to do something faster. And I see a lot of it, but a lot of 'em reach out to me.

[00:09:39] Nick Schiffer: I have a friend who of mine, who's really in that space that constantly is getting my feedback on things. And I saw a product yesterday where it's, you know, designed to help, you know, commercial construction, wall layout on big, you know, concrete slabs, right? Mm-hmm. . And I'm like, love the idea. Watch the video.

[00:09:55] Nick Schiffer: And it was like, first you do this and then this, and then you do that, and then you, and then all of a sudden it's like step [00:10:00] 13. I'm like, dude lost me. This is, yeah, you lost me. Like this, this, this is just a different way of doing it. Like you were in trying to change the way we do something rather than make it more efficient.

[00:10:15] Nick Schiffer: And that if you're gonna cut

[00:10:16] Eric Goranson: the steps by half, awesome, but if I gonna go learn days of process to do the same thing.

[00:10:21] Nick Schiffer: And that's, and I think that's just like that. With craftsmanship and the idea behind craftsmanship, over, you know, efficiency. I think there needs to be a balance there where, you know, craftsmanship is very expensive.

[00:10:37] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. And if you can't, you know, labor is more expensive, material is more expensive. And if you're continually putting in twice or three times as much labor to execute something at a higher level because, because you want it to be a higher level of craftsmanship, I mean, To me, that means that, okay, there's value [00:11:00] to that, but there's also value to figuring out how do you get, you can get there faster.

[00:11:04] Nick Schiffer: And I think of like CNC for example, and that, you know, conversation I've had with Ken, who's my partner at Material Millwork is that, you know, he was a little bit against C N C in the beginning. Sure. And you know, he was like, I like, I just like cutting plywood on the table. Saw, like working with my hands and stuff.

[00:11:20] Nick Schiffer: I'm like, I get that man. Like I totally understand that feeling, but, The, the reality is like you could take out the, the monotonous work and put it on a computer controlled, you know, c n c that's cutting all your parts and pieces, you know exactly the same. Exactly the same. Make that part of the pro, like that process more efficient so you can turn around and then spend more time on the, the, the sexy craftsmanship stuff, the stuff that does require handwork, that, that when it is done by hand, there's an actual benefit to the end result.

[00:11:55] Nick Schiffer: Not, you know, I just cut that with a ply, like on a table saw [00:12:00] instead of a, a cnc. I mean, there's no, yeah, at the end of the day there's no, like, no one's there. I don't wanna say that. No one's gonna notice the difference because that's not the point that there, there's really no benefit to it, I guess is what, where I'm going.

[00:12:12] Nick Schiffer: Yeah.

[00:12:12] Eric Goranson: There's no art to that really. It's not, it's not something you're gonna notice. And I, I went through that C N C transition working at cabinet shops and designing and managing cabinet shops back in the day, cuz. That was the fight. Okay. Getting away from that UniSA over into that C N C and you could just get better yields and use equipment and be safer with it too.

[00:12:37] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. Use less material. You're maximize your, your nesting p parts and pieces. I mean, that's one of the coolest parts of it, I think. You know, there's a, a framer, uh, who's got a shop that pre-fabricate all his walls in a shop and was touring his shop one day and he's, he orders all his plywood extra, like 10 foot sheets.

[00:12:55] Nick Schiffer: He orders all his two by fours and 24, 24, uh, 20 foot [00:13:00] lengths and things like that. Yeah. What he does, he, that whole house gets designed in the computer and then it spits out the cut list. So you're maximizing your cuts out of that two by four to the end. When you get to the end of the, the, the job he had a 55 gallon bucket of scrap.

[00:13:17] Nick Schiffer: How cool is that? I mean, it's, you know, to do that by hand. Would take days because you're like, all right, which part do I cut? Now? You know where a computer can figure that out for you. And there's like, you're not ruining the craftsmanship there. No. You're all, what you're doing is you're maximizing the use of material, which is helping counteract the cost of material.

[00:13:41] Nick Schiffer: You're, you're, you're, it's more environmentally, um, you know, friendly because you're using less material and, and less is being thrown. And, you know, and you're allowing the computer to, to figure that out so you're not wasting additional labor hours to, you know, figuring out, all right, [00:14:00] what's the best use of this 20 foot two by four?

[00:14:02] Nick Schiffer: And, and end up with Yeah. You know, a four foot piece that, you know, never ends up getting used or you put it aside to use it for, you know, a, uh, a cripple stud that, you know, then you forget that you ha have that four foot piece and then it's just a four foot piece sitting in the corner of your shop.

[00:14:18] Eric Goranson: Absolutely. It's that piece you're holding that you never, ever use. Right, right. The one that you trip over for two

[00:14:22] Nick Schiffer: years. So you, I'm gonna get that for later. You mean like the 24 drawer boxes I've, we've ordered incorrectly. That's sit in the corner of our shop that we're dude going to, dude, who doesn't

[00:14:30] Eric Goranson: have not, I, I, I have those here in my garage.

[00:14:33] Eric Goranson: What are you talking about?

[00:14:34] Nick Schiffer: I think, I think anyone that's ever ordered drawer boxes for cabinetry has the, the mistake. And we've, yeah. And, and and it's so funny, like, oh yeah, we'll use those. It's like . No, we won't. Yeah. I have,

[00:14:48] Eric Goranson: uh, draw boxes and I have a couple shower door panels here

[00:14:50] Nick Schiffer: too. Oh yeah. I had a shower door panel and I end up, I did end up reusing that.

[00:14:55] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. Um, I've got a plan for

[00:14:57] Eric Goranson: it. I haven't used it yet, but you know what I mean. Yeah. It wasn't even my [00:15:00] fault. It was the glass company ordered it wrong and I'm like, yeah, can't, can't cut that down.

[00:15:03] Nick Schiffer: Yeah, right. . Yeah. We built a same cut a thing, we built a kitchenette for our office and it's like, here's a perfect time to use material that we already have.

[00:15:13] Nick Schiffer: We didn't Right. We just ordered all new material. Yeah. All new. It's too hard. Yeah. It's like, ah, forget it. It's too hard to go back to it. Yeah. It's silly stuff like that. Oh yeah.

[00:15:22] Eric Goranson: Well, I wanna talk about power tools with you for a second. Yeah. Cause uh, man, there's some good stuff out there. And I know you do a lot with Fest tool.

[00:15:30] Eric Goranson: Yes. And tell you what those guys. It's gorgeous stuff, my friend. It is gorgeous

[00:15:36] Nick Schiffer: stuff. When you say that, it's funny because like, that's one of the reasons why I like it so much is cuz it looks good, it's sexy and it's super sexy, man. And I, and there's so many, so we're refitting our, um, one of our vans, uh, for home care and it's kind of a hodgepodge of different tools and everything does its job like a hundred percent.

[00:15:58] Nick Schiffer: Like he's got a cart, it [00:16:00] goes in like, the clients are like, oh, this is super organized. And we had a meeting and I'm like, man, you know, kind of want it to be gray and green, right? And they're like, well that's like, that cart is more money. I'm like, I know. Yeah, but it, you know what, let's just do it. Like, I, like I.

[00:16:19] Nick Schiffer: After this meeting, I don't wanna talk about it anymore. Let's just because I know Yep. It's, everything's got when that, that cart rolls through that front door and the client's looking at like, oh, that's really neat looking. Everything's the same. Everything's super clean. Oh wow. Everything has its spot.

[00:16:33] Nick Schiffer: Right. And it's, and it's like, what is that? Oh, it's, you know, it's, uh, it's just the, the like, Yeah. Uh, I'm, I'm with you on that. And I mean, truthfully, you know, I started the same way as I think everyone does. They buy the tracks on, and that was like the, that was the tool. That's

[00:16:49] Eric Goranson: the crack, right? That's i's the first hit.

[00:16:51] Nick Schiffer: It's the first hit. I, I remember picking it up and my, the guy that sold it to me was like, Hey, just so you know, this is, he said that he was like, this is like a drug. I'm like, what are you talking about? [00:17:00] Yeah. I'm like, I just need Aox saw. Like I, I, I see the value and then I call him, I'm like, can I get a Sander

[00:17:06] Nick Schiffer: And then can I get a, another vacuum? He's like, dude, and the next thing go, you know, it's like, I need a

[00:17:11] Eric Goranson: domino. I need a domino. I'm doing a project over here. I need this, I need that.

[00:17:15] Nick Schiffer: And, right. And I'm, I remember I did a deck and I was like, that domino, I, I need the xl. Like, I didn't, I like, definitely didn't, but I was like, no, no, but if, I mean, I might as well have it, you know, because I can use it now and probably use it again.

[00:17:29] Nick Schiffer: And then it just, like, and then it, you know, there's, there's so many benefits to it.

[00:17:34] Eric Goranson: Yeah. It's good looking stuff and it, it, what I. It's one, it's sexy, but it's just so finely made. It's got that German engineering and I, it's hard to put a word to it, but it just does, it's just got that, it's meant for a crafts person

[00:17:49] Nick Schiffer: to use.

[00:17:50] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. It's, it, you know what, um, I know what you're getting at. Because like, I think about when sge like demonstrates something where everything that the [00:18:00] tools do, like the indicator plates and like the, the tabs on the side of the dom, it's very, once you know how to use it, it's super intuitive. Yeah. And when said uses like, he's not even looking at the thing.

[00:18:11] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. It's like he's, he knows what the tool's gonna do, just by the way he use moves it around. And that was, you know, and, and that's the part where it's like these tools are. Like, there's a lot of thought that went into it because they knew what kind of things that they could add that would make things repeatable.

[00:18:29] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. You know, like the indicator, you know, the side, the, the gauge or the side gauges on the, the, the domino is a perfect example. And it's like, you know, it's just everything there was, there was thought to everything. And even, I mean, um, what was it, the, one of the Sanders has like the smart mode on it and it's just like, yeah, I don't know.

[00:18:50] Nick Schiffer: I could sit here and we could

[00:18:52] Eric Goranson: sit here and just like Jule over tools all day

[00:18:54] Nick Schiffer: long, but a

[00:18:55] Eric Goranson: hundred percent . But I just, I just love how they've, they've put it together and [00:19:00] it, and there's some tool companies that do a great job out there and I mean, there's a lot of great tools out there. And if you're a homeowner out there, uh, you know, there's so many great brands out there, so I don't wanna say bad about it, but for guys that are doing, you know, for folks that are out there building stuff every day, this is the stuff that if you wanna do that, Really, you know, detailed work.

[00:19:21] Eric Goranson: It's meant for that.

[00:19:23] Nick Schiffer: No, a hundred percent. And, and I think you're right, like there's a lot of tools out there and there is this like misconception that, you know, you need to have particular tools or like a, a, a particular brand. It's not, it, it really does come down to preference. And are there benefits to using something like Fest Tool over another tool brand?

[00:19:45] Nick Schiffer: Yeah, of course. And you know, there's, there's probably another tool that, you know, another brand might make even better than Fest tool. And it, what it does come, it, it, it comes down to preference and, and going right back to what we just were talking about it is the, [00:20:00] the intuitive nature of them that make them.

[00:20:04] Nick Schiffer: Desirable to work with where it's like, yeah, I could go buy, uh, you know, a $40 belt sander and, and do do the damn thing if I need to. But if I have a, a really nice, you know, belt sander or a really nice tool, like I'm gonna treat it a little bit differently and it's gonna have a little bit more capacity in the sense of like what I can do with it creatively and exactly, and, and, and how much control I have over it.

[00:20:30] Nick Schiffer: Or, you know, obviously the dust collection is a big thing for them, so, you know, it's huge. Maybe it, maybe it maybe I just don't have to worry about dust. And that was, I mean, that was a huge thing. We, especially when I started it was just me. So, you know, I'm on a job site inside a home with a, a chop sauce set up, and I'm not cleaning up windows sills and furniture at the end of the day.

[00:20:51] Nick Schiffer: It's, you know, because I have a. Dust extractor on it. I'm like, that's a, that, that was money. That, that's, that was valuable to me. You could be putting [00:21:00] a

[00:21:00] Eric Goranson: kitchen in and cutting inside and not worried about, oh, you know, Mrs. Smith's dining room's around the corner, and I'm gonna have to pay to clean

[00:21:05] Nick Schiffer: that up.

[00:21:06] Nick Schiffer: Right. Yeah. So, I mean, and that's a huge difference in not having to

[00:21:09] Eric Goranson: go outside to cut stuff.

[00:21:11] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. I mean, you think about like what it, you know, I mean, we could get into the semantics of like what it costs to clean, but, you know, it, that that's where I, I definitely saw a lot of the benefit, especially being a solo guy.

[00:21:23] Nick Schiffer: Uh, but even now, I mean it's, you know, yeah, we talk about how cool it looks in the van and for the client, but, you know, all, all of my guys, you know, I'm not gonna say they demand the tools, but it's like they ask about it, it's like, Hey, can we get this? Can we get that? You know why? Sure. It's like, well, this will make my job easier.

[00:21:40] Nick Schiffer: Or, Hey, this drill, I really like this drill. It's small, it's ergonomical, it's, you know, it, it's easy to fit in cabinets. It, you know, it has more clutch control. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. If this stuff makes your job easier, like I, I've always said from the beginning, if we need a tool to make your job easier, then we will get it.

[00:21:57] Nick Schiffer: And, you know, and whether that's [00:22:00] immediately or work towards it, you know, we will, we will make the effort to, to get that tool as quickly as possible. . It ends up

[00:22:07] Eric Goranson: being safer in the long run cuz they're comfortable with it. They know how it works and it's reliable. Mm-hmm. a hundred percent. You know, that more control that you have no matter what you're doing, the better off you are with it.

[00:22:17] Nick Schiffer: A hundred percent.

[00:22:19] Eric Goranson: Would you use that stuff framing?

[00:22:21] Nick Schiffer: I have, yeah. Yeah. I, I had, uh, I, I say I had, uh, meaning like someone else in my company now Yeah. Has it in their truck. Uh, but I had the, I think it's hkc like that mm-hmm. that cutoff saw. Uh, so I use that framing. Um, I, I definitely use the chop saw framing, especially like interior framing.

[00:22:42] Nick Schiffer: I mean, not so, not so much like if we're framing a whole house. Sure. Um, but when you, when you're doing remodeling and, you know, or smaller like projects Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. To, to frame a whole house with a CapEx mir saw. It's overkill. Yeah, it's [00:23:00] overkill. And I think that the massage just not designed for it.

[00:23:02] Nick Schiffer: That's what I

[00:23:03] Eric Goranson: mean. Yeah. It's, it's meant for that. You know, if I'm, if I'm laying out four layers of crem molding in the, in the dining room, that's what that's meant for.

[00:23:10] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. And if you're, but if you're cutting like a half a dozen, two by fours to frame up a small wall Yeah, totally. But you're bla if you're blasting out a, a, a hip, a thousand square foot frame with Yeah.

[00:23:20] Nick Schiffer: Hip roof and LVLs, like, can it do it? Sure. Are you gonna burn the motor out Maybe? Is it, you know, do you, do you need to, do you need to use something like that? No.

[00:23:31] Eric Goranson: Are you gonna take the Ferrari out four by four?

[00:23:34] Nick Schiffer: Right. Yeah. , some guys would. Some guys would . Absolutely.

[00:23:39] Eric Goranson: That's what

[00:23:39] Nick Schiffer: YouTube's for. Yeah. I was gonna say, I'm sure I can, uh, reference a few YouTube videos.

[00:23:43] Nick Schiffer: A guy's doing that with a Ferrari. Absolutely.

[00:23:47] Eric Goranson: But yeah. And one, one other thing I like about them too is they stand in their lane too, by the way. It's isn't supposed to be some festival commercial, but they just stand their lane. They know what they do. Well. You know, I don't see 'em making margarita machines or anything

[00:23:59] Nick Schiffer: [00:24:00] crazy.

[00:24:00] Nick Schiffer: No. And I, and you know, I had the benefit of being out there early, like before they, they were like considering social media at the time. Mm-hmm. , uh, and whether or not they'd have a presence on there, which is funny to think about now, but, um, right. You know, That was something that they talked about. Like, you know, we were talking about tools and like what they might come out with.

[00:24:19] Nick Schiffer: And they were like, no, we're not gonna do that. We're not gonna, we're not really gonna get into that space. We're not gonna compete with that. Um, and they just really, like you said, they stay in their lame or, you know, they really just, you know, they know what they're good at and they're, they're focused on that product.

[00:24:34] Nick Schiffer: Um, and you know, I think things like they acquired, um, saw stop if I, if I am Yeah. Speaking, uh, correctly. But that made sense, you know, it's like, you know, they didn't, they didn't do it and said that now we're gonna put a saw stop in all our tools. It was just like, it made sense for the industry. It's something moving in a really good direction.

[00:24:52] Nick Schiffer: Why not? Shaper I think was similar where they were using the router motor. It's like, yeah, that's another that it, they, it was within [00:25:00] their wheelhouse. Sure. Um, but they're not, you know, they weren't then saying, all right, we need to, you know, Create a, a less expensive drill or, or impact driver or whatever.

[00:25:11] Nick Schiffer: Like it's no. They were like, no, we're gonna make a really nice impact driver that is more there. Exactly. Like more contr, you know, ver variable, variable control on it, you know? Yeah. Um,

[00:25:23] Eric Goranson: yeah. Yeah. That saw stop technology is, is brilliant stuff. I mean, I think we've all played around with the hotdog. I've, you know, tried to sit there and play with that.

[00:25:31] Eric Goranson: It's

[00:25:31] Nick Schiffer: cool. It is. Uh, so I hit my finger once on it. Really? Um, I did, wait, hold on. Now I actually don't remember, remember, and I say that because I know I've hit the, the, I've had the break go off on me, but now I can't remember. Yeah. If it was a wet piece of wood for me, wood or what, that's my finger. Yeah.

[00:25:49] Nick Schiffer: Um, but more importantly, I, yeah, I've seen the hotdog videos a a million times. I've seen him in person, but I saw a video the other day that surfaced of a [00:26:00] guy using his hand, Ugh. In a demonstration at a trade show. I'm like, who proved that? Yeah. And no one, and he was just like, watch, and he slid his hand.

[00:26:10] Nick Schiffer: And, and of course like the break went off, but it's, I'm like, dude, all I thought about was years ago I saw this Volvo commercial when they came out with the automatic braking. Yeah. When they, when they saw a pedestrian and the video was like, the, the guy just hit the gas and someone has shut it off and the dude like, hit the dude, like hit the guy in front of him.

[00:26:30] Nick Schiffer: It was like supposed to be this huge demonstration. Yeah. And it was totally right. And all I thought about when he put his hand, I'm like, dude, all like, yeah. I mean, it's designed for that. And I, and, and wonderful that you have the confidence, but it's not designed. It's it's designed. I'm not betting my own hand on that.

[00:26:47] Nick Schiffer: Yeah, exactly. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. It is. I mean it's, regardless if I, if it was my finger or a piece of wet wood, I mean, when it goes off it's like, damn, that was. [00:27:00] That was it. Lets, you know,

[00:27:00] Eric Goranson: I did the hotdog thing for tv. We were shooting a tv, uh, segment on tools and saw stop rep was there five or six years ago and

[00:27:08] Nick Schiffer: boom.

[00:27:09] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. Oh my God. It's, I mean, it's loud. It's like you don't even know what happened. No. You're just like, wait, uh, where's the blade? ? It sounds like a,

[00:27:18] Eric Goranson: like a 50 pound piece of steel lands on your deck of your table saw. Yes.

[00:27:23] Nick Schiffer: Yes. And then, and, and it goes from being very loud because the, the blades span to just dead quiet and then everyone else gets quiet because they're like, what, what the hell is that?

[00:27:34] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. It's like, oh, just my saw automatically, like eating a blade and eating. Yeah, eating itself. works well, though. Works well. Yeah, for

[00:27:44] Eric Goranson: sure. You know, how many contractors do we know out there that have missing fingers or cut hands or most,

[00:27:52] Nick Schiffer: yeah. Yep. See? Yeah. I, yeah. My, uh, this. I'll never forget that [00:28:00] I, I was, I was building this shed for, uh, this family.

[00:28:03] Nick Schiffer: And I wanna say it was like in November, because I remember being a little cold. I had a sweatshirt on, had gloves on, and I was cutting the last piece of trim for the shed. And I was pushing, uh, it was a craftsmanship. A craftsman. Yeah. Not crossman ship. A craftsman table saw. What's that? Old school? Little old school.

[00:28:23] Nick Schiffer: It was actually a shop one. So it had like the metal base bolted to it. Yep. But I used to bring, I used to bring it out to the job site, and so I'm pushing the last piece of trim. It's probably two, two and a half inches, you know, wide. Always push it through without a push stick, like my whole life, like that was just, you know, it was just what I did.

[00:28:41] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. But I don't typically wear gloves. I don't typically have gloves on. Yeah. And the, my glove wasn't super loose, but it was loose enough that it, it caught the index finger in the blade and it pulled my hand, like sideways across the blade and it snapped. Oh. My middle [00:29:00] finger knuckle. It cracked that sideways and then it hit my ring finger and it cracked that knuckle sideways.

[00:29:06] Nick Schiffer: And then the blade, I sawed the line of my nail went up my fingernail. And when it hit my knuckle, my recollection is that the blade jammed on my knuckle. Oh, dude. And I, the knuckle was the

[00:29:18] Eric Goranson: new sauce stop piece of

[00:29:19] Nick Schiffer: aluminum. Yeah. Yes. Now God and I, and I reached down and I shut the table saw off, and I look, I like, look at my hand and my glove had like pulled down a little bit, so Sure.

[00:29:28] Nick Schiffer: When, so it looked like I cut all my fingers off. Yeah. Some, I'm like, ho, like, you know. Yeah. You're, you're f every word's coming. Yeah. So I throw the glove. Which I never found after that, which was super weird. But I take the glove off and I throw it, and I'm like, oh my God. Okay. I think I'm okay. And this is how I'm reacting in the moment.

[00:29:47] Nick Schiffer: I'm like, all right, I'm good. This hurts, but I'm gonna tape it up. So I go to my trailer, I'm looking for electrical tape, of course, right? Yep. Blue Tape

[00:29:54] Eric Goranson: Electrical tape is better

[00:29:55] Nick Schiffer: than Blue Tape. Yep. And can't find any. So I find Tape [00:30:00] Dope . Aw. And I'm like, all right, this should work. So I wrap up my fingers for tape.

[00:30:04] Nick Schiffer: Dope. And it's like, no, like blood's, like just pouring outta my fingers at this point. Point, yeah. Can't fix it. And no one's home at the house. And so I, I am like, all right, I don't know what to do here. I'm like, I, I, I need someone to help me ban my hand. So I call the non-emergency line. Yeah. And I'm like, Hey, I don't, this is an e.

[00:30:22] Nick Schiffer: They're like, okay, what's going on? I'm like, I'm at such and such a dress. I cut my hand on the table, saw I, I just don't have any bandages and I'm bleeding pretty bad. And I just want, I, I just need someone to help me come bandage my hand cuz I no one's home and I don't want, I can't drive cuz there's blood spraying outta my finger.

[00:30:39] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. And they're like, okay, no problem. And so I'm sitting there, I'm, and then I call my brother, I'm like, Hey, what are you up to? Uh, no, I'm sorry. I call one of my friends. I'm like, Hey, what are you up to? And he's like, he's like, oh, I'm out riding four wheelers. I'm like, all right, nevermind. And he goes, why?

[00:30:53] Nick Schiffer: I'm like, oh, I just needed help with something, but enjoy. I'll talk to you later. Yeah. And then, and later on, did you

[00:30:59] Eric Goranson: so much like [00:31:00] me. This is

[00:31:00] Nick Schiffer: scary, dude. Later on I told him, he goes, dude, I would've got in my truck. I'm like, nah, no, don't worry about it. So I called my brother and I'm like, and I tell him, I'm like, Hey, this is what's going on.

[00:31:08] Nick Schiffer: I just need you to come. Oh, I'm sorry. No. This, I haven't talked, I waited for the fire engine. Yeah. So I'm like looking for the glove, can't find the glove. I hear the fire engine coming. I'm like, oh my God. They have the sirens on, like Yeah, they're coming full blown. Yeah. Right before they pull in the driveway, the homeowner comes home, of course.

[00:31:26] Nick Schiffer: And she's like, what's going on? I'm like, oh, I just cut my hand. Everything's okay. And she's like, are you sure? I'm like, totally fine. So the EMCs come over, they're like, what's going on? And they look at my hand and she, uh, the EMT looks at me and she goes, Hey, you're in shock right now. I'm like, no, I'm good.

[00:31:42] Nick Schiffer: She goes, no, no, lemme just explain something to you. You're in shock so you don't feel pain. This is a real, this is bad. And I was like, okay. She goes, you need to come with me. I'm like, no, no, no. She's like, you're you. Ha. You have two options. You either need to drive yourself to the hospital or you get in the ambulance, and I would recommend you get [00:32:00] in the ambulance because in about six minutes you're about to feel pain that you've never felt before.

[00:32:06] Nick Schiffer: So I fought with her, eventually got in the, the ambulance and I called. So I called my, uh, I called my mother at the time, but I called my brother to, I was like, Hey, I just need to go. I need you to get a ride and pick up all my tools. I couldn't pick them up. Sure, yeah. You, and, and can you put 'em all in the back of my truck and just bring my truck home?

[00:32:22] Nick Schiffer: Um, to which he texted me later like, Hey, do you have gas? Cuz your fuel gauge doesn't work. I'm like, uh, I have no idea. And he goes, great. Yeah. Well, I'm not getting gas cause I don't have any money, so hopefully I make it home . But, so I'm in the ambulance and there and she's like, Hey, I need to take your sweatshirt off.

[00:32:36] Nick Schiffer: I'm like, I'll, I'll take it off. And she goes, I'm gonna cut it off. I'm like, and I was like, beside myself. I was like, no, this is my favorite work sweatshirt. And she's like, getting the scissors and she's like, cutting my sweatshirt off. And then all of a sudden pain. Yep. And I went into like crazy pain. I get to the hospital, I'm like, I was a, I, I was in so, so much pain.

[00:32:57] Nick Schiffer: And they gave me, I mean, they gave me [00:33:00] a. A ton of drugs. Like pain meds. Yeah. And anti-anxiety. Cuz I was losing my mind. I was Oh yeah. And, and they were like, okay, you know, you have a, like, you're not, this isn't taking very well. Yeah. Um, and the next thing I know, I wake up and I'm, you know, bandaged up.

[00:33:18] Nick Schiffer: Bandaged up and um, they never healed correctly. I think they did a bad job splinting them, but, yep. Yeah. I mean I can't, like, I can't get them to fully extend straight. Oh yeah. So they droop. Um, yep. But I like that is fine. And that's good. That's good. Yeah. So there's my story, .

[00:33:36] Eric Goranson: Oh man. I'm not even gonna tell mine out here cuz mine's brutal, but I'll tell you after the show.

[00:33:42] Eric Goranson: All right. But yeah, it's brutal. But we all have those, yeah, we all have those.

[00:33:47] Nick Schiffer: The only other time I really got. The least that I can remember is I was building a doghouse and I was holding the wall with my knee. Mm-hmm. , and I used, I, I framed, I was using a framing gun and I Oh. Went, went to, to, [00:34:00] uh, nail the top plate on top of this little 18 inch stud for the doghouse, and the thing hit a knot, came out and went right into the side of my knee.

[00:34:08] Nick Schiffer: And it didn't hit a bone or anything, but That's good. I had, I had to lift the dog house up and like, like off my leg. Ouch. Uh, because it, like, you know, shot me down to the ground essentially, but Oh, yeah.

[00:34:20] Eric Goranson: Toenail into the side of your knee.

[00:34:22] Nick Schiffer: Nice. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, exactly. So, . Yeah. I mean it's, uh, uh, to think about, you know, what year it was then and like how technology that's let, let's go back to tech for a second.

[00:34:33] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. That's one of the benefits of tech is that it's, it is evolving very quickly and you're seeing major advancements. It's unfortunate that it's littered with a lot of bs, which, but anything is. Right. And, you know, and my thought on that right, is everyone, you know, there's a lot of talk about how, you know, like just media and influence on media and, and social media and stuff like that is, is negative.

[00:34:58] Nick Schiffer: It's like, no, the, the reason it's [00:35:00] so negative is that it, it, it's always existed at this level. Yes. And, and, and, and I'm relating it to like having bad product. The reason there's always been bad product. There's not more of it, you just are more aware of it now because it's very easy. Yeah. Its easier to find that information.

[00:35:14] Nick Schiffer: Exactly. So

[00:35:17] Eric Goranson: a hundred percent. And, you know, it's, it's, it's crazy. And, and I, and I talk about on the show this a lot is, you know, there's, there's bad products out there. There's, I mean, you and I can both walk into Home Depot and Lowe's and if somebody said, okay, I'm gonna give you a 500 bucks, go bring me 10 items that don't meet building code.

[00:35:38] Eric Goranson: Hmm. We can all go walk around the store and go one of those, one of those, one of those. Yep. But they still sell 'em. Mm. And that's the challenge I think for builders and homeowners out there, is that just because it's sold out there doesn't mean it should be used.

[00:35:56] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. I mean, it's the same thing with the car industry too, right?

[00:35:59] Nick Schiffer: [00:36:00] Like, you know, someone will sell you a, you know, a cool exhaust system that deletes the muffler and the de the, the, the DPF on a diesel. But you know, it's for off-road use. Yeah. Uh, same thing. I mean, Massachusetts, like we have a strict plumbing code and it's, you know, if it's not on the approved, um, fixture list, it's illegal.

[00:36:23] Nick Schiffer: And there's these bottle traps that, you know, are super common to be specked. Every job will spec them. Yep. And my plumber's like, I can't use that. It's not mass c. And it's, it's silly, but they'll, like, every, every yard will, I mean, every, uh, plumbing supply house will sell it. Yeah. Because it's, it's a, it's a good looking product.

[00:36:43] Nick Schiffer: And then it's, you know, it's the same like arc fault breakers, you know? Oh, geez. Yeah. It's, you know, they, they're, they're an absolute nightmare because it's like, dude, they keep tripping. Like, you're a bad builder. You're an electrician, sucks. It's like, no, the code requires us to put these in. It's like, well, I want 'em out.

[00:36:57] Nick Schiffer: It's like, then you need to sign something that you say that you're [00:37:00] okay with, with being liable for us not, you know, abiding by the code. Yeah. And, and, and we, and yeah, there's clients that will pay to have us come back and take 'em out and swap 'em.

[00:37:13] Eric Goranson: And the hard part is, is, you know, due to all the crazy lawyers out there, does that form even protect you?

[00:37:19] Eric Goranson: Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, that's the tough part.

[00:37:21] Nick Schiffer: Right. Yeah. It's like the fire, the, you know, whatever, like the panel catches fire. It's like, has nothing to do with the breaker. It's like, well, he didn't have the right breakers in there, so, you know what I mean? It's, it's like, it's such a catch 22, but those breakers have been around for like 40 years, so Yeah.

[00:37:37] Nick Schiffer: Pretty sure they're okay. . Yeah.

[00:37:40] Eric Goranson: Well it's like, it's great example. It's like how many people wanna put that chandelier over the bathtub?

[00:37:45] Nick Schiffer: Everyone but every, yeah, everybody

[00:37:48] Eric Goranson: wants to do it. But it's in my Pinterest picture. Yeah.

[00:37:52] Nick Schiffer: It's like, doesn't mean electrical code. Yeah. And the inspector walks in and it's like, oh, nice blank plate above your bathtub.

[00:37:57] Nick Schiffer: Right? Oh dude. It's like, I know I had a, uh, [00:38:00] splice, I had the bear. Yeah. , Uhhuh . He's like, yeah, I hope it's anchored to an L V L up there. When you hang your chandelier from it, it's like, uh, accurate.

[00:38:09] Eric Goranson: accurate. Yeah. It's every inspector sees that plate up there and just shakes their head and walks off going, I know exactly what's gonna happen here.

[00:38:17] Eric Goranson: Yeah.

[00:38:17] Nick Schiffer: But. Yeah. It's inter, I mean, I get it and I, I understand why, you know, these codes are in place. I mean, it's, it's funny, I was having this conversation last night about, um, pregnancy. I have three kids and my, we're we're gonna have a fourth kid. Oh, congrats. Thanks. And, uh, my wife is gonna kill me cuz I've mentioned that now on three podcasts.

[00:38:38] Nick Schiffer: And she's like, we never tell anyone . Yeah. And now I'm telling like 30,000 people at once. Yeah. Um, but, but point being is like, there's all these rules about pregnancy and it's like, you can't eat this, you can't eat that, you can't, you can't drink. It's like, no, you can drink. You just can't be an alcoholic.

[00:38:55] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. Like you, you can have that glass

[00:38:57] Eric Goranson: of wine. Yeah. However, comma, you're not supposed to [00:39:00] have the, the two magnums at

[00:39:01] Nick Schiffer: one time. Exactly. And, and this is in, and I relate it to like how building code and, and, you know, and products are, are, you know, uh, controlled. It's like, well they have to plan for the person that.

[00:39:14] Nick Schiffer: Goes way beyond what their intent is. It's like, Hey, yeah, you can do that, but don't, don't, you know, don't avoid like best practice because of it. Yeah. I think about like the charcoal filters, right? Like on plumbing stacks we're not allowed to use 'em mess. Okay. And in some states you can, yeah. And sometimes, and some, I've seen 'em, when they put the charcoal filter underneath the, uh, an island cabinet, we're not allowed to do that.

[00:39:38] Nick Schiffer: We have to bow vent it and Yep. But, you know, but the charcoal filter would work and it, it, it would actually work quite well. But the problem is, is like they decide that they're not allowed because then they just don't even vent the thing to the roof. Like, oh, I'll just put a charcoal filter on it and call it good.

[00:39:53] Nick Schiffer: It's like, no, no, no. That is the reason they are not allowed is because you're taking advantage of it. Absolutely. Yeah. It's, you [00:40:00] know, and, and I think that, you know, even tool companies, right? Like, you know, going back to table saws, it's like, yeah, hey, you have to have the guard on your blade. It's like, sure.

[00:40:12] Nick Schiffer: I'll have the guard on my blade, you know, on my, my contractor version table saw out in the field when I'm ripping a 45 on a two by four, I'll make sure my guard is on my blade.

[00:40:23] Eric Goranson: Negative. Nick, my guard is on this great tool bench. It's down below sitting there. Yeah. And it's been there for two years, right?

[00:40:30] Nick Schiffer: Like it's just not there. I'm sorry guys. That's, and just being honest and, and you know, we actually just hired, um, a safety officer for our, our company because we were like, all right, let's get legit. You know, we're getting bigger, faster, and I wanna be, I want, I want my guys to be safe. I want my, my subs to be safe, my, my partners to be safe.

[00:40:48] Nick Schiffer: I want everyone to be safe. And, and, but there's times where it's like, well, what ha, like what if you don't have a place to tie off? And yeah, it's, it's like, well, you actually don't need to tie [00:41:00] off in that scenario. And it's like, I didn't know that. And it's like, you, you know, there's, if, if you're creating more danger for yourself, there're like, you just have to have a plan in place.

[00:41:09] Nick Schiffer: Like what is your plan? Like if you're, if you're gonna do something, what, like how are, how are you taking the best measures to prevent an accident? Yeah. And it's, and again, it's like, yeah, you know, they want you to have the table saw guard on at all times, but there's a lot of times where if that, that guy, that guard is on, you actually run the risk of, you know, creating a more dangerous environment.

[00:41:33] Nick Schiffer: Yeah,

[00:41:34] Eric Goranson: yeah. There are times that, that, that guard gets in the way and causes more headaches than if it

[00:41:38] Nick Schiffer: wasn't sitting there or creates bind and the, and the, the piece kicks back. I mean, yeah. You know, the, and listen, I, I'm watching all of these manufacturers like design better and better guards and it, and I think that it's super smart and they have to, because the, the usage, the, the use of those guards is, is.

[00:41:58] Nick Schiffer: Probably small, like very, very [00:42:00] small. And they're just looking to go from like 1% usage to 2% and like just make an improvement. Like get more people to use them, figure out how to make it safer. And it's like, and of course like you can a like soft stops a great example. Like, all right, well without the guard on it.

[00:42:14] Nick Schiffer: Like, we have this in place to prevent an accident. It's like, great, there's, there's a way to counteract the, the difficulties of having a guard is having some sort of other plan to prevent accident.

[00:42:28] Eric Goranson: Yeah. It's, it's, you know, in, in our field here, it's that it's the extension ladders, the roofs, the, the table saws, the air nailers.

[00:42:37] Eric Goranson: That's, that's where the problems arise.

[00:42:39] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. And that's, I mean, and that's where like, like I said, we, when we hired the safety officer, I'm like, there's times, I'm not sure what the rule is. It's like, you know, these guys are up in a man basket on a lull. Like do they, like what's the rule for being tied off?

[00:42:52] Nick Schiffer: Are they tied off to the basket? Yeah. Or are they tied off to the house? You know, and it's like scissor lift, like you actually don't wanna tie off on [00:43:00] those apparently. Yeah. And it's like, or, or you do when there's like this in place. So having, having someone, you know, uh, on retainer is, has been helpful.

[00:43:09] Nick Schiffer: Where it's like when we get into a new situation, he comes out, he does an inspection with us, and then he walks through like, Hey, these are the, these are what we need to address and this is how I would address it. Smart. And having a smart plan going into place and yeah, I mean, it's, again, it's, you know, it's a small investment for, you know, hopefully a better future for everyone that's involved in our project.

[00:43:28] Nick Schiffer: Yeah,

[00:43:29] Eric Goranson: absolutely. Hey, I wanted to ask you, Nick, uh, trades man, we, we still have this trade shortage and it seems like it's getting worse, not better. Mm-hmm. , what's your predictions out there? I, I ask everybody that comes on in, in our fields here that, uh, what do you see out there with the new kids coming into the trades?

[00:43:45] Eric Goranson: I mean, there's such a great opportunity out there for men and women.

[00:43:49] Nick Schiffer: I have a lot of feelings on this. Um, number one, I think that there was this huge push to make the trades more attractive and like create awareness like five years ago. [00:44:00] And I think that we did that. Um, and I think there's an, a massive amount of interest in the trades.

[00:44:07] Nick Schiffer: Um, but coincidentally, during the time of creating all this awareness, we ripped out the education. Yep. We, you know, my, my tech school, you know, I was talking to one of the teachers that, uh, teaches there because we actually brought in one of the students as an intern. I was like, yeah, dude. Like, he's like, Hey, do you have, I'm like, send me any kid that you think is worthy of being in the trades.

[00:44:30] Nick Schiffer: Send him my way. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll find, find something for him to do. Yeah. Um, but I was chatting with him. I'm like, oh, is cabin making still there? And he is like, no, they, they actually combined with house carpentry. I'm like, that's. Two different, two different trades. Yeah. That's, I'm like, is metal, is machine shop still there?

[00:44:49] Nick Schiffer: He's like, no, that's kind of combined with welding. I'm like, also two different, two different trades. Yeah. And he's, and I'm like, what about autobody? He's like, that combined with mechanics. I'm like, [00:45:00] all right, this is getting out. Okay. Nobody's sinking this out. Yeah. Like, what you guys, you know, bec and it's because, you know, I actually, I, I shouldn't say it's because, because I don't, I, I don't know the root, the real cause of it.

[00:45:13] Nick Schiffer: You know, there's, there's talk that it's money, that it's this, that it's that, that no one wants to be in it. But then it's like you hear all these kids that do want to be in it. Yeah. Um, so you asked my, my what my predictions are, I think. I think my prediction is that labor is gonna continue to become more expensive.

[00:45:31] Nick Schiffer: Mm-hmm. . Um, and what that's gonna do is it's gonna continue to force innovation and, and alternative ways to build. I think that offsite construction is going to, uh, continue to grow. I think, uh, I think factory built homes is, is something that is where, you know, uh, dare I say, just scratching the surface on, think a hundred percent agree.

[00:45:56] Nick Schiffer: A hundred percent agree. I think, I think that, you know, we are going [00:46:00] to be required to be more efficient with material and labor. Um, I think that's gonna put a huge strain on people that have been in this industry for more than a decade because they, quote unquote, have been doing this for more than 10 years and they have their ways of doing it.

[00:46:15] Nick Schiffer: And I think that's gonna be very difficult for that, that that group of people. Yeah. Um, I think that you're gonna see people that weren't necessarily looking to get into, uh, construction, get into construction because of the tech backbone of it, um, such as automation and factories and, and BIM and, and, and CAD and things like that.

[00:46:38] Nick Schiffer: Uh, and modeling and solid works, all that stuff, right? Yeah. Uh, software. Um, and I think that we will be required to have a better outlook and path for people that do want to be in the trade. And, and I say that knowing that I'm working, I'm, [00:47:00] I'm struggling to work on that for my own company in the sense like, I want a very clear path for my people.

[00:47:08] Nick Schiffer: Where you come in and you are, you are zero, like, a zero meaning, like, you have no experience. This is what, this is what we can offer you at that level. And if you want to get to a one, a two or three all the way up to say 10, here are the things that are, are required of you. Here are the, the, the, the milestones that you need to hit.

[00:47:30] Nick Schiffer: Here's the extracurricular, you know, training that you need to take part of. Here's the things that you need to be able to do, you know, proficiently. And that, I think being ab, being able to communicate that and share that with someone will help counteract the, the desire to constantly jump ship and move to different companies.

[00:47:54] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. Which means that people will find a, a, a place [00:48:00] for their career and their future in a way that they have more control over. No question. And, and, and with like, with that being said, I think that having the self-guided control is really important. Where it's like, you think about like the people that work from home and get to create their own schedule.

[00:48:21] Nick Schiffer: Like we don't, the guys in the trades don't get to do that. They don't get to work from home. They, they are very much on a schedule. Like, you know, I get that the 40 hour work week came from the assembly line, but that has been adapted. That is the norm. We don't technically typically work on weekends. Some guys do, some guys work seven days a week.

[00:48:40] Nick Schiffer: But yeah, there is this, this understanding that you, in construction you work between particular hours, you know, like the, the, and then everything beyond that is overtime, right? Yeah. Which is extra. But point, my point is, is that there's less flexibility as to when you work where I think [00:49:00] that's gonna continue to push the, the.

[00:49:03] Nick Schiffer: The pressure on us as business owners and, and leaders to, okay. If that's like, that's something that they can't control. They need to be in control of their career, of their earnings. Yep. And whether that's, you know, their, their, their annual pay increase, whether that's a bonus structure, whether that's a career map, you know, in order to retain people, not only within your company, but in the construction industry as a whole.

[00:49:29] Nick Schiffer: People are go, like, people are gonna individually want to understand how they get to their goal of six figures a year or beyond.

[00:49:39] Eric Goranson: Yeah. I think it's gonna be very interesting for, you know, the entry level to mid-level home out there. How I think that we are just coming over that hill of the factory built home that that's really gonna be, Where those developments can be built so much more efficiently, with better yields out of [00:50:00] all the materials.

[00:50:01] Eric Goranson: Yeah. Safer working environments. Cuz you're not up there at 32 degrees. Right. With a torch taking the ice off the roof to, to put ice and water shield down, you know? I

[00:50:09] Nick Schiffer: know. Yeah. I mean it's a, a, a great, great point about the safety, right? Where it's, you know, the, the ability to not only build it offsite for the, the yield on materials, but, and then the controlled environments, but it's also the safety of the guys and, you know, and efficiency of guys where, you know, the other, the other side of this is that, yeah, we do want more people in the trades, but we're not gonna be able to replenish the people that are leaving the trades at the same rate.

[00:50:39] Nick Schiffer: And we might never replenish that amount of people. Yeah. So, you know, while, while we want to continue to. Um, attract people to be in the trade. We also have to understand that we need to innovate in a way that re requires less people to, to do this work. And there's a big argument there where it's like, we shouldn't be fo so focused on [00:51:00] getting rid of the quote unquote craftsmanship.

[00:51:02] Nick Schiffer: We should be focused on getting people interested in. It's like, that's a fair point. Yeah. You are never going to have the same amount of people in this, because that's just not the world we live in anymore. Everything is being automated, everything is being technologically advanced, and we need to, we, we need to encourage and support that.

[00:51:18] Nick Schiffer: So the more you work against that, the further and further you'll end up being behind everyone else.

[00:51:27] Eric Goranson: So true. So true. You know, it's, it's interesting out there and I think that it's gonna create healthier homes as well, because we're not having to take our homes and put 'em in, you know, in the conditions that they are in with rain and weather and Yeah.

[00:51:42] Eric Goranson: And things like that as well. I mean, there's, there's gonna be a lot of pluses and minus or the, is it gonna, is that 40,000 square foot home gonna be a modular home? Probably not,

[00:51:52] Nick Schiffer: no. But there will be parts of it that are Yeah, like I think about, you know, so, um, [00:52:00] Encore casinos built a place in Boston and my wife and I stayed there one, uh, one night and I walked in the hotel room and she's like, what are you doing?

[00:52:10] Nick Schiffer: I'm like, I just need, like, this place is amazing. Yeah. She's like, what are you talking about? I'm like, the detail, like the door casing, like, and she's like, and, and I'm like, and this thing was built in like 18 months. Like this massive hotel. Yeah. And so I really started like looking at things and like re like I, I was just obsessing over it.

[00:52:30] Nick Schiffer: Well, that's how we do it. We walk into buildings and do that. Totally. But what I realized is, I'm like, they're like, well, how, how do you think they, they got all this casing to be so tight. I'm like, this was all made in a factory. Yeah. It's great. It was totally painted. And they figured out how to pre-build everything on a, a shop bench and, and fabricated in a way that could be brought onsite and installed in 20 seconds.

[00:52:52] Nick Schiffer: Yep. And it looks dynamite. True. It looks like someone, so someone sat there and sanded and made that thing [00:53:00] perfect and sprayed it and, you know, and, and then protected it all the way through construction. It's like no BS dude. Like that stuff

[00:53:06] Eric Goranson: was, especially on a commercial job site. Yeah. That's usually where you see the lowest quality craftsmanship, not the highest.

[00:53:11] Nick Schiffer: Exactly. And it's like, and, and to think that, you know, this is what, this is how we can, we could build that 40,000 square foot house point. Is that you think about, okay, maybe that thing doesn't show up in on, on trailers and goes toge together like a Lego set. Yeah, but maybe it comes panelized. Maybe it's built in a factory and panels and maybe the roof is precut and they can fabricate it while they're standing walls up and then they crane it over and.

[00:53:39] Nick Schiffer: All the interior doors are already pre-done and pre-made pre-case on one side and pre-K, like, and yeah. Okay. You immediately think, oh yeah, but pre-case, like that's the, the crap you see at Home Depot. It's like, you know, well, not necessarily, not necessarily like it could be at a higher quality just because Yeah.

[00:53:56] Nick Schiffer: You're, you, I'm not talking about $110 door. I'm talking about a [00:54:00] a a a a $5,000 pre-hung door. Exactly. Yeah. And it's, you know, and it's, and it's done at a level that, you know, can be done, can be, uh, at a very high quality.

[00:54:13] Eric Goranson: Yeah. And you and I could sit here in 20 minutes and figure

[00:54:15] Nick Schiffer: out how that could be done.

[00:54:16] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. And that's the thing is like, we are so in, in this industry, we're so reactive. So we're always like facing the, the, the, the problem that's right in front of us where, you know, We need to be thinking about bigger picture. We need to be thinking about, you know, how do we do something faster? And I'm gonna use this example, I've been using it a lot, but it's, you know, this whole hurricane down in Florida, you know mm-hmm.

[00:54:41] Nick Schiffer: disconnected the bridge from, um, Naples to Sandal Island. Great example, dude. This, this bridge would've taken months to typically repair Army Corps. Came in, fixed it in seven days. Yeah. And the ar and the article went on to say it's like, uh, actually I don't even know. I think someone referenced it on LinkedIn, but it was, well, how could they have done it [00:55:00] in seven days?

[00:55:01] Nick Schiffer: Because they wanted to. Yeah, they

[00:55:03] Eric Goranson: didn't go get a bunch of weird environmental permits. They came in with dump trucks and said, we need to put a bunch of rock right here. We need to fill this in. We need to build a retaining wall and we're just gonna make this thing work.

[00:55:13] Nick Schiffer: But, but absolutely accurate. But beyond that, it was the fact that they wanted to get it done seven days.

[00:55:21] Nick Schiffer: Yep. And when you want to get something, like you wanna build that ho, that hotel in 18 months, you can do it. And when my, when I, when I challenge my team where it's like, Hey, I don't wanna build this house in 20 months. We told the client, 18, we're doing it in 18. And they're like, we, there's just no way to do it.

[00:55:36] Nick Schiffer: I'm like, that's not true. It is not true. A hundred percent. And you, I, and you can't sit here and tell me that we can't build this house in 18 months. You have to come to me. If you came to me and said, Hey, I'll build this house in 18 months, but it's gonna cost you another 50 grand because I need to, you know, pay, pay, you know, X amount of more people to show up, right.

[00:55:56] Nick Schiffer: Expired fees, labor, whatever. Yeah. Okay. Then may, [00:56:00] then we address whether the $50,000 is a worthy investment or not. Don't say like it, it's always doable. We could build that. You, I'm gonna use a terrible example, but you, you could build that house in a couple weeks just like they did on, uh, I know you're going there.

[00:56:15] Nick Schiffer: The extreme Home Makeover move and listen. Yeah. I mean, listen, I know that there was problems with those homes, but the point is, the point is there's a way to do it. Yeah. Whether it's right or wrong is we can determine that once we figure out, like how do we get to that end result? Yeah. And if it, and if, and for us it's quality first and then price and, and schedule are, are, are organized in the second and third spot.

[00:56:43] Nick Schiffer: So if it's quality and schedule, so price is gonna be, you know, hugely inflated in order to deliver on that. Right? Yeah. And, you know, and, but if we get to a point where it's like, all right, well schedule, like we can't continue to com like compress that because we just physically don't, like, there's no [00:57:00] possible way to compress that anymore.

[00:57:01] Nick Schiffer: We have a thousand people on the job site and now everyone's working inefficiently. Okay. Yeah. Well that, that, that doesn't make sense. What does, yeah. Could we fabricate the house and offsite and then bring it on, you know, in a helicopter and drop it in place and it costs Sure. 7 million to helicopter.

[00:57:18] Nick Schiffer: Okay. Does it make sense? No. Okay. That's off the table. Yeah. But the point is, is like you, like that's where I find most of my time is spent now is like challenging the way we do things and, and when it's, you can't do that. Okay. Why not? Walk me through that. Why can't you do that? Yeah. Because in my opinion, like you could, yeah, and we talk about this in the cabinet shop too.

[00:57:39] Nick Schiffer: It's like, you know, I'll say, oh, why don't we, you know, do this, that, that and the other thing. And they're like, you can't do that. I'm like, well what if, you know, what if you had a piece of hardware that did this and like the door swung that way and then it did this? And they're like, yeah, but that hardware doesn't exist.

[00:57:54] Nick Schiffer: I'm like, so could you think we could make it? Well, I [00:58:00] mean, I'm like, exactly. I'm not saying that it's the right answer. I'm saying it needs to be thought about. And when we go turn around and ask someone like, Hey, can you make this hardware for us? And it's $10,000. It's like, all right, well maybe it doesn't make sense for this one project, but is that a product that we can then go sell?

[00:58:17] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. Can we make, can we make a hundred thousand units and sell? Yeah. Like it's you, you know, and this is, you know, this is where I get really excited and why I like the position I'm in with my, my teams now is that I'm the one that constantly is like, Walk. I, I, you gotta prove that you can't do this because like, I get that there's some, if it's money, okay.

[00:58:39] Nick Schiffer: How much money, you know? Yeah. I had that on a

[00:58:42] Eric Goranson: project I had, uh, geez, this was 15 years ago. It was Bill Gates' father's house. Now we went in, it was the trust and I mean, this was probably the craziest job site measure. I walked in with the, with the remodeler, and I'm the cabinet guy. Hmm. We walk in, there's armed guards.

[00:58:57] Eric Goranson: They have dogs smelling my car. I mean, they're [00:59:00] beers under the car. Like I'm at the embassy. I, oh my god. You know, literally measuring out this kitchen with four guys in ar fifteens in tactical vests. Cause you know, oh yeah, we're measuring this up in the, in the, and the guy out there goes, all right, we have a month to do this kitchen remodel, and it's a big kitchen.

[00:59:18] Eric Goranson: Mm-hmm. And I'm like, all right man. Um, are you gonna give us some time to spool up or is this like starting tomorrow? What's, you know, what's, what's, when's this, what's the start date on thing? He goes, oh, start date. It'll be in a month. . So in 60 days from today, this kitchen have to be done. Yeah. So I get the measurements, get the drawings, go back and head over to the CEO of the cabinet company.

[00:59:36] Eric Goranson: And I said, same kind of thing. All right, man, here's the cabinet package. I need this done in three weeks. He's like, we have an eight week lead time. I said, that's not the question I asked. Right. What's it gonna cost to get this done in three weeks? Well, it's

[00:59:52] Nick Schiffer: always well throw price at it. Well, well, you know, I'd have to call this guy and see if I can delay his kitchen then call him.

[00:59:59] Nick Schiffer: Well,

[00:59:59] Eric Goranson: what's it, [01:00:00] how many guys wanna work late? So they have money for the holidays, right? Mm-hmm. . Right? What's it gonna cost to, you know, overtime? 10 hours? Everybody,

[01:00:07] Nick Schiffer: right. Yeah, no, I mean, it's, it can be done, it it a hundred percent. And then, and that, you know, going back to like something we talked about earlier is this is where we, we need to think differently.

[01:00:19] Nick Schiffer: We need to be more creative with the constraints that were, that, that are put on us in construction. You know, I, I truthfully, as a builder want to get to a point where I can look at a client and guarantee my pro, my, my budget and guarantee my schedule and, you know, and I say that year after year and I've never been able to do it.

[01:00:40] Nick Schiffer: And it's incredibly frustrating. And, you know, and I'm not sure what your listener base is, but I'm sure a bunch of people just scoffed at me. Like, yeah, sure man. Like, no one's ever gonna guarantee that, but I do. That is the goal. Yeah. And I don't want to, I don't want to guarantee it because I fluffed the number.

[01:00:56] Nick Schiffer: I wanna guarantee it because I know that we can, we can execute at a high [01:01:00] level. Yes. Like, I mean, like, you know, like military, like yeah, we come in, we have a process, we follow the process. We, we, and, and that's, and that takes, you know, from day zero to day 700, I mean, it's gonna be every step of the way, you know, has been figured out.

[01:01:16] Nick Schiffer: And we know where our, our, the holes are, and we're gonna work as a team to make sure those holes get filled.

[01:01:23] Eric Goranson: Amen brother. Man. Where is this hour gone, man,

[01:01:26] Nick Schiffer: bro, I don't know. These, these goes quick, doesn't it? These podcast? Yeah. It's like every time I'm like, man, there it goes. If I did a podcast every day, I would just, you know, I, I, I, I talk all day.

[01:01:38] Eric Goranson: Yeah. You and me both. You and me both. What are we not hit on today, brother? Anything else you

[01:01:42] Nick Schiffer: wanna say? I don't know, man, I, I'm just, no, I think I, I think I actually got out a lot of what's on my mind. Um, nice. I'm excited about 23. You know, obviously we got the building company material millwork, our millwork company.

[01:01:56] Nick Schiffer: Um, super excited about just the opportunity [01:02:00] to expand that, um, motif Media, who has been producing all of our content from video, uh, as well as our, uh, the Modern Craftsman podcast. Yep. Uh, and of course, the podcast, I mean, it, it's been this labor of love for five or six years now and, you know, we are getting to a point where we're restructuring a little bit, uh, and getting Yeah.

[01:02:23] Nick Schiffer: And getting excited about, you know, what we can do with it in the future and really position ourselves to, to help the industry. And that is, at the end of the day, what I hope, uh, my professional legacy leaves. So, where do people

[01:02:40] Eric Goranson: find this podcast? Nick?

[01:02:42] Nick Schiffer: Uh, on any podcast platform. So Modern Craftsman. Um, you type that in on any platform.

[01:02:47] Nick Schiffer: Um, we're, we are actually launched on YouTube. Okay. Uh, so we're gonna be sharing all of our, all of them on YouTube and yeah. Any, any, any podcast platform.

[01:02:57] Eric Goranson: Thanks for coming on today, brother. This is great. We'll

[01:02:59] Nick Schiffer: do it [01:03:00] again. Yeah, man, I appreciate you. All

[01:03:01] Eric Goranson: right, Nick Schiff for NS Builders. Thanks for coming on today, brother.

[01:03:05] Eric Goranson: This is great. You're listening to Around the House,