we are joined by our first

international guest today

and I say international

with a bit of tongue

in cheek because he's

just over the ditch.

We've got Josh Atkins from

Compound in New Zealand.

Josh, thanks for

coming on, mate.

No, no worries.

It's a pleasure.

So tell us about yourself.

Who are you?

What do you do?

We know you're a

residential builder and I'd

love to eventually get into

the differences between

Australian and New Zealand

construction methods.

But just tell us about

yourself, what you do, all

that sort of normal stuff.

uh, Just, uh, South

Island Kiwi bloke.

I had a pretty competitive

sporting background before

I got in the building.

And, um, just, you know,

did my trade and worked

my way through and then

I think because of my

background in sporting and,

being competitive and I

just had some drive to want

to explore uh, construction

sector a bit more,

What sport?

uh, Road cycling.

road cycling.

Oh, here we go.

Hamish

loves his bike.

I might as well

just leave the

conversation now.

nah, look, it's, it's

not the sort of stuff

I'm into, but I just, I

love being on the bike.

It's really free.

Yeah.

Now it's just mainly

mountain biking

in Queenstown.

did a few races in the

Newell guys, neck of

the woods and around

and the Herald Sun

tour and whatnot.

So yeah,

Oh, so you're good.

Yeah, look, he says

that with a smile.

you've definitely got

some hills over there

to be, uh, training

on, that's for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Now I just like

going down them.

And then you just have a

little bit of an e bike as

best as you can, which is

back up.

Yeah.

did I just hear

you got an e-bike?

Is that what I just heard?

Yeah.

you've literally gone the

complete opposite to what

you were doing before you

go downhill and e-bike up.

yeah, so now I'm at

maximum efficiency

now, so less time.

So it's like the

houses you build.

That's like a good 360.

Great segue.

I love it.

I love it.

So you also build

passive houses and high

performance or whatever

you want to call them.

yeah.

So, well, I did the

trade and then wanted

to, we're just building

some very big, um,

expensive holiday homes.

It was quite the trend

down here in Queenstown

and I don't know where I

initially got the bug with,

uh, Google passive house.

Or I heard about it

somewhere and then wanted

to explore it more.

And then the more I learned

about it, the, just the

more it made sense and

how like basic science

just wasn't even being

applied in construction.

I was no I was no

whiz in school or

anything like that.

But once I kind of saw

the light, you just

struggled to unsee it.

And then was super

motivated to try and

learn more about it.

You guys had the issue

with all the water damage

in New Zealand, where

we haven't had that

here yet in Australia.

So, was that something

that made it a bit easier

to transition across?

Yeah, I was on probably

coming into construction

after that, but it's

actually, it's like a

misunderstanding of build

science because of the

leaky home building.

That's why we started

just hanging our windows

like way outside of the

thermal envelope because.

Everyone's so paranoid

about, um, water management

and how to do it properly,

even though they're just

using terrible membranes or

not having a good membrane

or detailing around

windows in that regard, but

They're probably making it

worse, if anything.

Yeah.

And then it's like,

you just got to do.

from the ground up, if

you think simple, but

well executed, then

you just won't have any

of those issues where

it's kind of like this

hodgepodge of like, Oh,

I've got a water issue.

So then they put everything

outside of that and

then like, they just

couldn't like, we'll

solve the problem now.

We'll just leave it.

And then it's a really

hard to change the culture

in terms of, but it's

starting to happen now.

So we're probably in

the same space then,

Haym, you reckon?

So we're probably

still where you guys

are at, we're at.

You've just had the

backstory and the

history of knowing

what can go wrong.

Haven't solved

it correctly.

Where I'd say in Australia,

we haven't had the

issues go wrong yet.

They will.

I'm very interested to

see if we then adopt

the same principle.

Like, let's get everything

as far out as we can

away from the building.

I always thought that

New Zealand were ahead

of Australia in terms of

performance construction.

And

maybe, was predominantly

based in New Zealand first.

Am I right in

saying that, Matt?

Is that true?

Yeah, so Pro Climber

was originally in New

Zealand and they've

come across here.

Originally German, Germany,

but like the, their, their

head office is over in New

Zealand and now obviously

they're, you know,

pretty big over here too.

Josh, would you say that

you are one of a few

like high performance and

passive house builders

in New Zealand or are you

seeing there like a bit

of a rapid uptake in that

kind of construction?

No, there's a minority

for sure it's often the

smaller guys that are

pushing for change and

then I'm seeing that it's

starting to bleed out and

then some very big, well

established construction

companies are now, so the

company I worked for when

I left, one comment was,

oh, you're going to go and

tape everything, are you?

And I was like, yeah, and,

and then they got a big

passive house job, but not

quite passive house, but

from really good architect

and actually, oh, you

should watch Josh's YouTube

What happened there?

Did they come crawling back

and be like, Hey, how do

Oh, no, well, I

made the comment.

He was.

There I just talked to

them about what I had

kind of been learning and,

Discovered and, and he's

like, yeah, I went on the

course and it was awesome

and like it really makes

sense and Hopefully we

can do some more of them.

So these guys that

have been building

a long time and then

once they understand

like evolved Yeah, that's

what I've always said.

It's easier because

you're just so across

the details early on.

You've just mapped out

construction details and

you're working within

critical measurements

so that, you know,

when I first started my

apprenticeship, it was

more like, Oh, we'll

just sort that out later.

And then you just snowball

down the, down the

mountain to bigger issues.

So it's just like doing

the right thing, doing

it right, executing it

right at every step.

And efficiently is,

something you develop,

um, as you go further on

with the, with the high

performance building.

And then just execute

everything really, really

nicely and orderly fashion.

I think one of the things

that one of the things

that attracts me to high

performance and passive

house is that it's very

methodical, but it's also

where it really matters,

i. e. that building fabric.

That's where you're

spending so much time

and energy and detailing

and then you're cutting

it from the outside

and you're putting

plaster on the inside.

And I've got this

philosophy that if my

team can execute all

those details spot on.

Then it's just going

to bleed out to the

rest of the project.

You know, the cladding

is going to be perfect.

The interior fit out

is going to be perfect.

And on that, I think what

attracted to me to your

business was just how

perfect everything is.

I think I remember

commenting one day

when I saw you do

your strip footings.

And I think it was

like looking out over

a lake or something.

Can't remember what project

Yeah, your house, your

building locations

are by far the best

that anyone I've

my goodness.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

But I looked at it and

I'm just like, that is

someone that gives a fuck

about that building and the

longevity of that building.

I need to follow that guy.

Did you hit like

water table?

Because you were

quite close to water,

weren't you there?

Is that

nah, nah, that wasn't

too bad, that one.

Yeah, it was.

And then it just had

like all the beams,

but I know the project

you're talking about.

That was super satisfying

and form work to do.

I think.

that's why we all follow

each other, I think, is

you just get to see all

of those details being

executed so well, and in

terms of like trying to

one thing that probably

doesn't get talked about

much or trying to explain

say Developers or to get on

board a bit more with it.

It's like when I do one

of these times I'd like

no I've got no stress

about external moisture

or Like they're being

oh, you can take a whole

cladding board off and I

just wouldn't even care.

I'm just like it's

not gonna leak

we were just talking about

like one of the things that

attracted you to passive

house is about taking

care and pride and sort

of those sort of things.

I think the other

thing for me is the

sharing of information.

The fact that I'm sitting

here with you where

different countries able

to share the same amount

information, like I find

that with this attempt,

attempt to build better and

this care to build better,

that people are very

happy to pass information

onto each other.

Is that the same

for you guys?

Like, have you got yourself

a little community in New

Zealand that you've been

able to do the same thing?

yeah, there's a guy, Mark

and Monica in my build.

He's really pushing

and preaching the

word over Monica.

He does an awesome job.

He's part of the better

building group over there.

And smart and architects

I work with, um,

you've got Joe life.

I think you guys met

him at the, Passive

house Greek and Aussie.

And Arthur Lee over here

as well, big advocates

and guys involved

in Homestar as well.

It's a kind of like a

New Zealand standard

that's been set up.

And spoke at the WOW

seminar that Monaco as well

about sustainability and

waste management as well.

I think everyone's

kind of across that.

So there is a

good community.

Probably don't catch up.

With everyone as much

as I'd like to, but

yeah, it's a minority.

It's like a huge minority,

Yeah.

Are you finding that people

are trying to get into,

like, everyone wants to

build what you're building.

Like, is this younger

generation of builders

and trades come through,

they're wanting to be like,

Hey, we want to build this.

We've done our Passive

House course with Passive

House Trades people.

I shouldn't say this

politely, but like

fake it till you make

it kind of thing.

Are you guys having

the same thing?

Where you are, because

like, I'd consider you

an expert in this type

of construction because

you've done it not once,

but twice, multiple times.

uh, it's hard to know.

it's more like some really

experienced businesses

that do good construction.

Don't really understand

it completely, but they're

probably more reputable.

In terms of younger people

coming through that want

a job, I don't find it

particularly hard to

recruit because people

want to work for us or

with us and learn how to

do these better bills.

Last year was just

particularly harder.

I found like the economy

in New Zealand where the

election interest rates

went pretty crazy after

COVID and people stop

caring about sustainability

or environmental choices

or when, or the people on

the fence say stop because

they just worry about

their bank account and

essentially their future.

So last year was really

hard in terms of that,

but I think the economy is

looking a bit stronger now.

So people were going to

looking at building better.

Yeah.

mate, I tell you what,

2024, I think was probably

one of the hardest

years that I've been in

business without a doubt.

would say that we were

incredibly fortunate that

we managed to keep busy.

We had about five

projects finish in the

middle of the year.

We had about 4

million bucks worth

of projects drop off

in a six month period.

Which left huge

gaps in our,

, construction program.

Luckily enough, we had a

few projects drop, which we

were working towards, but

we were actually in this

really tricky period where

we had all these projects

finishing and even though

we had work in front of us,

none of it was contracted.

So We felt it

over here too.

I'm kind of hoping glass

half full kind of person

over here that this

year would be better.

Is that still the

same though, Haym?

feel like that's still

the same to everyone.

We have all these pre

construction projects,

projects in the pipeline.

The hard thing is until

there's a contract

signed, there's nothing.

so you're trying to to

work it out, but it's

really, really hard.

I think the biggest

difference this year is

I think the people that

are coming through now

their expectation on cost

has been recalibrated.

The projects that we

had drop off were legacy

projects from late 22.

You know, so like 12, 18

months old and, you know,

we'd given him a price back

here and now it was up here

and it just wasn't viable.

I just, I feel like,

our messaging with

clients now is health

and size of the home.

Like big focus on health

and don't put a fucking

cinema room in if you're

only going to watch

a movie once a month.

Make it smaller , build

what you need.

I've

so with, with your projects

falling over, do you just

want to talk through that?

Because I think it's

something that it's normal

and this is probably

the advice that I'd give

to pretty much actually

anyone, everything might

look fine and dandy on

the outside that you're

building this beautiful

passive house in the

background with these

beautiful mountains

and stuff, but there's

other things that happen

behind the scenes that.

That isn't so pretty , and

it does have a huge effect

on the way that we operate

our businesses and that

instability of not knowing

when that next project

might or might not get on

site really gets you going.

Just want to talk about

it a little bit and , how

that felt for you.

yeah, it can look all good

on the outside for sure.

I haven't been super

busy on the socials

recently, but I've been

going through a huge

learning and developing

phase and business.

, like Hamish was saying,

he lost quite a lot of

projects that were going to

happen that didn't happen.

That happened to us.

We priced 13 million

worth of work last year.

some of them meant to start

in May, and getting pushed

out, getting pushed out and

then, going to tender and

then missing out by like

50, 000 on a 3 million job.

So,

Oh, that's tough.

and that's after a

year of consulting.

on and off, but when you're

younger and you're looking

at getting into business

and, the picture you paint

yourself of like, it's

that job finishes and then

the next one starts the

next week you're in the

ground and managing that

this year or the last six

months for me has been a

big understanding, like

being able to hear no and

kind of pivot quickly.

And also looking.

To diversify, I guess, your

clientele and the people

you work with, and more

I've tried to communicate

with people, the more work

that's starting to come

in and you just start to

filter out what's actually

a good project for you and

your team and what's not.

But I don't know,

it's just life.

Like sometimes it's

happened for you.

Well, it's usually always

happened for you, but

sometimes you're just

getting kicked in the guts

and getting taught a lesson

and then it just leads you

on to some better projects.

So if you're not winning

them, like I didn't win

some last year and now I'm

getting to do projects more

in line with what we want

to want to be producing.

Whereas if we were

full from everything

else, there'd be

no room for that.

that job that you had

fall over, that when

you missed out the 50,

000 for the 3 million

project, you getting

involved in competitive

tenders or that was like

a negotiated style tender

and it was just 50 grand

we couldn't get there?

it's a thing of the market

where cost was so high.

So tindering got really.

Big really quickly

and architects would

commute getting four

or five on some big,

big projects tendering.

And that's a lot of

resource being used by

builders and QSs and

we QS all our own work.

But like unpaid,

essentially, you can try

and negotiate getting paid.

Sometimes you can, but

sometimes if you want,

that's some, yeah,

sometimes you think, oh,

maybe I won't on this one.

Be beneficial, but

um, yeah, I don't

like tendering.

I like to work with a

client early on, help

them through their design,

do some preliminary

pricing early on.

Usually it's.

Your house is too big for

your budget and then it's

just work to get to the

numbers and like you've

got no problem doing some

open book stuff if it's a

really high beneficial job

like a T risks everything

for everyone but um you

tend to work with people

that want to work with

you that way well that's

my experience and they've

always been my most

successful jobs everyone's

super happy at the end of

it it stays on budget it's

smooth there's no cost

surprises And you've like

worked together throughout

the whole design.

I've said this before

on a podcast uh, one of

our episodes that the

best project is when

the builder makes money.

The client gets a

beautiful home and the

architect gets to see

their design realized.

So it's win, win, win.

That right there is

the perfect project.

I hope I'm not going to

ruffle any architect's

feathers when I say this,

but the sheer arrogance

of that architect that

put it out to four

different builders

to waste four, three

different builders time.

And I would love if you

flip that on its head and

that architect had to go

and design four different

homes to win one of them,

how that would feel.

Unpaid,

unpaid.

unpaid.

Why is there still

this stigma that

builders shouldn't get

paid for their time

to estimate or quote?

Is it just because it's

always been the way?

what could possibly

be the reason?

I think they just think

you like click a button

on your computer and

it's like that much.

like, how many hours

go into an estimate?

Like, 100 plus hours.

100 plus, 100 plus at

least, not only are you

losing in tendering.

But then if you fuck

something up, you're

losing at the other end.

So you're kind of going in.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hey, you said you were

working on parts of

your business during I

guess like a sort of a

bit of a rollercoaster

time last year.

Could you maybe talk to

the audience about some

of those things that

you were working on?

I've started using

probably by using

build exact software

a lot more heavily.

And just in the business,

myself and my brother's

a director as well,

but he's not full time.

He's a QS.

So, it's just been working

with that in terms of

our process of like

engaging with clients,

onboarding them leads.

Managing communication

and in trying to like

every job's different.

So understanding what

clients are trying to

achieve their problem

is, what you're

trying to solve.

And then so just

implementing software

like that with.

management trying

build a better team.

I'm quite like holistic in

my approach and business.

I tend to say which way

the current is and it's

kind of like, all right,

you need to go over

there and work on that.

It's, I'm not extremely

analytical because it's,

I'm usually trying to

control too much, which

doesn't, I can only

control what I can control.

So usually it's, yeah,

what are we trying to

work on at the time,

which was probably a lead

generation and getting

more of the work that

we wanted to not feeling

sorry for myself for not

getting work.

cause when you start

thinking negatively about

the industry and your

position and everything,

it just, you know,

it's just like kind of

life knowledge that you

kind of just attract

I should connect you

with um, James Buchanan

from Automation King.

He's a, Kiwi.

I think he's down

your way as well.

we've just done a

whole bunch of work

with him in our pre

construction CRM process.

So everything sits

on a dashboard now

and it's awesome.

It's a really great way to

manage leads and, you know,

move them along the line.

I've always found that

like, when I'm in that

funk, my brain goes into

problem solving mode and

on the other side of that

funk or hump or whatever

you want to call it,

I always sit down and

reflect and go, you know

what, I'm really glad I

went through that because

it made me really think

about the things so I

don't go back there again.

and I'm probably saying

stuff that every other

fucking, small business

owner said, but you

can't have the ups

without those downs.

And it's all about

failing forward.

That's my philosophy on it.

It's the only way you

learn, isn't

it?

I'm literally the

sum of every time

that I've fucked up.

You know, and now for

me, the fuck ups are

becoming less expensive.

Yeah.

And you just navigate

things easier that

used to like, would

have stressed you out.

Yeah.

Hmm.

And our industry

is full of stress.

Like, it is, I think it

has to be one of the most

stressful industries.

Like, there is so

much risk that we

take on as builders.

I understand other

industries have their

own, like their own

unique stress, but there's

a lot of negativity

around construction and

building dodgy builders,

all the, like, our

industry's like, failing,

everything's expensive,

everything, like, we're

not building enough

homes, like, everything

is just really negative.

Like hooks or like articles

that there's no positivity

around what we do.

So changing to try

to change that method

and preconceive that

is really difficult.

It is so challenging.

And then trying to build

better and then educate

people on how to be better

and how to build better is

then you're not only trying

to build, like, convince

him to build with you.

You're trying to convince

him this whole new

journey of building

that's better for them

it's really difficult

to navigate.

Yeah.

It's say to me, Oh, isn't

build science, building

something as cheap as

possible and selling it

for as much as possible.

It's like, that's

the science of it.

I was like, no, and they

were taking the test.

They were telling

me like, fuck you

build science.

Like so I think the,

it's just what people

have always made their

wealth in over here, and

that's one thing I find

the negativity for us is.

I don't hear as much

about like, ship building

like cowboy building

or something, I've seen

some videos of like those

Aussie building inspectors

that go around and some

of the stuff they see

is really atrocious, but

it's probably the beauty

of like where I'm building

and being in Queenstown

in New Zealand, like it's

gone through this extreme

boom and a lot of people

and builders working on

high end architectural

homes and then even some

of these, there's a big

subdivision that's just

like exploded and people

are doing well in there,

but people buy and want

to buy like a pretty nice

product in this town and it

fetches for a higher price.

So even if it's a spec

home, it's, there's,

lot of very good

builders in this town.

So I'm, Probably I can't

comment on, on standard.

Mine's more trying to

get people to understand

the efficiency and

the build science

but people are cheap.

So They all end up just

doing the same thing.

Oh, so and so did that.

And then they, then

they did their Alfresco

area because it's

better for resale.

And then they

just sort of start

Oh, resale.

I hate the resale

conversation.

you're in a pretty affluent

area, so yeah, you're

probably sheltered, as

you're saying, by some of

those, you know, involving

new builder kind of things.

I wanted to talk about

your style of construction,

just to sort of bring it

back to what Compound does.

From what I've seen over

the years that I've been

following you, Josh, you

do a lot of prefab stuff.

So I see you've done SIPs.

I see you're doing

like a prefabricated

cassette system as well.

Could you maybe talk a

little bit about your

experience in that kind of

construction and is that

something you really hone

in on in your business?

well, we did the

YouTube series kind of

traditionally framed with

all the air tightness and

that and then we pushed

into a couple of projects

where we saw the value

in SIPs panels and I'm

a big advocate for SIPs

panels if we're wanting

to achieve air tightness

because it just does

it all for you and that

the design works for it.

So, high performance has

been a non negotiable for

us for the last few years.

And it still is.

which was probably why

last year was tough

because I could have gone

and, you know, done lower

grade housing and, and,

and made more money, but

that's not why I do it.

So

Could I just ask you

to clarify what your

definition of a high

performance home is,

because obviously Matt and

I have our own definition.

I'd love to

hear what it's like across,

across the ditch there.

So you have to be

hitting all of Passive

House's principles

least some level.

so thermal bridge free

construction air tightness

is scaling that back

to an acceptable level

is probably the one

grey area for us.

Well, what would you

say is acceptable?

I don't know in terms

of air tightness score,

I'd like to to do some

more research on what

could be achieved From

an external rigid air

barrier and really well

detailed windows with

a really good membrane.

I reckon you'll find

if you run a rigid air

barrier externally,

you'll be tighter within

your intello internally.

Yeah, and then and then

the mechanicals are non

negotiable.

Ventilation windows

is where we kind of.

We're a bit fluid with

this new thermally

broken aluminium stuff.

That's a bit better

detailed, but as a builder,

I'm not the architect and

I'm also not the client.

So it's one that I, people,

there's still a massive

stigma about UPVC windows,

I find, but my experience

is they just, blow any

other competitive window

away and performance.

So,

price point UPVC window,

nothing compares.

Like in my, in my

opinion, nothing compares.

Do you get much

alu clad windows?

Yeah, project, these

ones in this house are

alu clad, triple glazed.

We imported them from

Germany, but, um,

there's a company,

Stark, that do UPVC.

I'm not sure if they're

offering the aluminium

clad, but there's

a lot of, there's a

lot of options now

out there.

Companies set up and

triple glazing being

made by the glazing

companies here as well.

So, like I'm starting to

see, that wasn't an option

two and a half years ago.

They understand the ridge

spaces better, they're

fully sealing the glazing

we're just getting better

performance that that

You make a really good

point on windows being

that we don't get a

choice as builders.

I've never thought

of it that way.

And especially when they, I

don't know, every architect

wants these absolutely

slimline frames, which

then makes it extremely

hard to Get any performance

in that frame itself

and then not only that,

a lot of the windows we

will use a European model

where they're tilting

turns, so from the

inside, they look even

thicker again, that is the

really, really hard part.

Maddy, I think it's

just re aligning

people's expectation

of what sexy is.

digressing just

a little bit.

But we had, the team from

Pleasure Perkins out to

one of our projects a

couple of years ago, and

Ramon Pleasure, looked at

one of the window suites

there and didn't even

know that they were UPVC.

He's like, oh, these

are really nice

aluminum windows.

I'm like, no, they're

plastic, buddy.

And he's like, oh,

wow, look really good.

So I think as we start to

see some of these, I guess,

higher profile architects

seeing the beauty and the

value in the performance

of these other windows, not

typically sexy windows, I

think you're going to start

having that as an easier

sell in your project.

Well, that's my experience

And as the training comes

through university for

these architects, and

there's more knowledge that

this is where the power

of social media is really,

really good now is that

there is information early.

So , that's a positive.

I think that give it

five to 10 more years and

this will be even easier.

I won't say standard,

that perception of what

is sexy will have changed.

think as more and

more architects start

listening to the Mindful

Builder podcast, Matty,

they're going to start

getting swung across.

They're going to want to

upskill because I hardly

know any architects

that would love to be,

outgunned in terms of how

a home's going to perform

by a builder to a client.

So, you know, when

you're designing a home

for comfort and the guy

that puts it together

knows more about how to

design it than you, It's

not good for the ego.

I possibly think that

that's kind of why it's

starting to Trajectory up

where they're definitely

taking it more and more

seriously because in this

region I was talking to it.

We've actually there's a

real estate agent who is is

on the New Zealand Passive

House Institute Board.

, she actually did a

subdivision in Wanaka

and you had to get your

house thermally modelled

if you wanted to build.

And a really cool Vicky

Spearing was her name.

I met her at the,

at the WARA event.

And she said The amount of

houses in Wanaka that are

built in these beautiful

homes and then the owners

are selling them because

they're too fucking hot in

the summer because they've

just got glazing out to

the west, amazing views

and they're just like

baking in the summer the

architecture is kind of

seen throughout the high

end industry so It's

in their interest to

understand the performance.

So one job we missed

out on last year, which

really gutted about,

and that was kind of an

understandable situation.

It was super close and we

were going up a builder

that's worked with this

architect for a decade.

So pretty tight

relationship there, but,

, he was doing everything

right, and he was detailing

it right, and he was

looking, he was using

all the Passive House

principles and it was a

Warren Armani architect,

so big company, and so they

starting to filter in to

these firms that the stuff

matters and the clients

are going to get a better

product, and it's going to

be comfortable and These

things are important.

It's just trying to

get passive house

over the line.

I think that's super

tricky at the moment.

I think we need to

stop talking about

passive house.

I think the word

passive house actually

scares people off.

it's this elitist

sort of style of

building I feel now.

it's interesting you say

that Matt, like I, I'm

literally thinking about

some of the leads that

I've had in, you know, even

the past two weeks and I

said, oh, probably don't

want to go to passive house

because we can't afford it.

And I'm like, well, we're

not going to know that

until we see the design

because your design could

really easily lend itself.

to be a passive house.

it's when you start

fighting against, you

know, orientation and stuff

like that, that's when you

might not be able to afford

to get a passive house.

So I think you're right.

I think there needs to

be one more education

and two more of a focus.

I know you and I are

talking about this, Matt.

Health is the biggest thing

and then the sustainability

and the energy efficiency

and all that kind

of stuff just falls

into place behind it.

The one thing that I

don't understand and I'd

love to like, as again,

Josh, you make that point

where sometimes you don't

want the builder knowing

more than the architect.

Like, that can be

potentially a dangerous

thing is why more homes

aren't designed to actually

factor in the north facing

and the west facing.

I understand that you've

got your views, yeah?

, but like, why isn't the

design accommodating

for shading or

things like that?

we, understand it and I

feel like sometimes, hey,

we do poo poo on architects

a little bit and that's

never the intention.

But like, why isn't

more being done there?

Like, again, we

know about it.

Actually, you know what?

Everyone knows about it.

It's passive, it's

basic passive solar.

It's

what they were

taught at uni.

I think that's the biggest

thing to unlocking the

volume builder industry

and the spec home industry

is that these people that

will go on there, so like,

you go on, you want to

look at a spec home, you

can pick whatever you want

from your website and the

biggest change needs to be

done is like, where your

location is, you should

have to filter that by your

orientation and then it

will spit out what you're

able to use on your site.

Yeah.

The design that,

caters to the site.

that probably is the

biggest reason why

you had seen so much

kickback from the volume

builders with seven star

coming in, in Australia.

And that probably

leads on to my next

question for you, Josh.

Obviously, we've got PHP,

which is what we would

use with the thermal

modeling of a home.

Here in Australia, we've

got the Nathurst, , sort

of seven star rating.

What's the standard way

of modeling your home?

And the reason I'm asking

that, I'm going back to

a point you said before

about lots of west facing

glazing to capture views,

because wouldn't that have

been picked up at the very

least in your normal, like,

energy rating in the homes?

Well, it's mainly

about heating.

Everything's about heating.

It's not necessarily much

about overheating

and the standard

like,

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Good point.

I think that's what it is.

Like, I've done, the

Homestar designer course,

cause I want to understand

modeling better and

shading, and what they do.

I don't design

or model stuff.

I really want to

learn more about it.

I don't practice it daily,

so, New Zealand had the

new, we had an H1, it's

called Change and Increase

in Thermal Performance

and everything, , but

those in the industry

with the knowledge kind

of know it's just going

to create more issues

because you're just going

to have houses sweating

and no ventilation, but

these hot, still probably

pretty cold houses, pumping

energy full of them, and

they just, dew pointing in

the, in the wall cavity and

the roof cavity and that.

So, There is more modeling.

It is going to create

warmer homes for people.

, but it's just, it's just

like a band aid approach.

see, I'd like

to see Homestar

Standard, , has its own

software called Echo.

And I went on the course

to learn the designer

course to see what

it was like for these

designers to learn it.

And it uses PHP.

and the guys at Homestar

have developed it.

You've had as well, Joe

Leith and Arthur that have

helped design Homestar,

which is encompassing

health and well being into

like a built standard,

which is super important.

So I thought, man, if I was

an architect, this software

would be so, this is like,

this does everything.

It helps me with

my modeling.

I've already loaded in

all the slab details.

Um, You find in terms of

thermal performance and,

thermal bridging, it's

not massively as detailed

as Passive House and I

imagine being a designer

for Passive House can be

quite, time consuming

when you get into like

side values and all those

point thermal breaks.

And then it incorporates

like your heating

demand and what energy

systems you're using.

And I thought, like,

as a designer, this

is relatively.

easy to, you know,

do that on a two,

three, four more jobs.

And you could just be

like, yeah, I'll, I'll

just run this through

the software and then

we'll make some changes.

We can look at some window

options, and do that.

I'd like to see more,

thermal modeling in

the design process,

like reference back

to , and like when we

did moonlight and me and

my brothers, this is.

We own this together, so

we could actually do it,

but I was like, what's

the numbers, so what if

we change this window,

or that goes up, or the

overheating, or what if

we make that overhang

bigger, or, I didn't

really care about it,

the design evolved from

me thinking about the

numbers of the house,

like, you know, I wasn't

like, nah, I want a Gable

to Gable house, me and my

brothers, we were like,

Okay, you, Team Green,

you guys are the experts.

What do you see would

work on this site?

And then from there,

the tweaks develop

to make it perform.

And then there's been

some learnings of

things I was adamant

on, like it's got a 0.

1 percent overheating.

It's never going

to get hot.

I can keep all the

windows closed.

My level of hot is like, I

like to be 18, 19 degrees.

So for me, well, it's

not even overheating,

but I feel like I am.

So that's where I have

like little references

I give clients of like

mainly about how you heat

and cool your home and

what energy system you're

using and also that's when

you find a place, don't

you just open the windows?

Ideally, you don't have to

but cross ventilation is.

a super important

design experience.

You get a choice

whether you want to

or don't have to.

Yeah.

just want to go back

to when you actually

talked about the

side value comment.

Actually just did the

Passive House Designer

course myself, because I

wanted to know more about

how it all went together.

I think sometimes builders

and architects and

design teams are trying

to get too involved in

the numbers themselves.

Outsource that.

Like, that's not our job.

Like, work with

the consultants.

They're going to help

you run the number.

We don't need to know

the side value or the

you, you install value.

That's up to, the

consultant to work at.

That's their job.

It's like, it's like going

to the engineer and going,

Hey, can I go through your

comps for your still beams?

Like we don't do that.

So why do we do it

for the performance

element side of thing?

I think we just sometimes

simple shit works.

Let's keep it simple.

Let's not over

complicate it.

And I think , the scariness

of having to run those

calculations and run those

things is the issue we're

trying to get people into

the industry because it's

seen as so hard and so

different, where if we

can just break it down

and teach people the

basics of building better.

And, teach principles

and have them understand

the principles so they

actually implement them.

I think the biggest issue

we also see is they,

everyone understands

it, they get it, but

then they don't follow

through with it.

Because I think the

numbers side of things is

so scary and we just need

to be able to outsource

that to someone else,

work with that design

person, that consultant,

and just bring them in as

part of the wider team.

Was just wondering, um,

seeing the work you do and

you're frequently producing

The same product high

performance product

or passive house.

Like what do you find

is Are you doing a lot

of convincing to your

clients or they're already

pre convinced or Or

what do you find

like getting people?

Across the line or

or interested in it.

What do you think the

most effective way of?

I'm not used to sitting

here being asked questions.

This

I don't know.

Is

this the first time

a guest has asked us

a question, Hamish?

you know, this is unreal.

love questions asked.

Um.

I spent a lot of time,

probably from about 2018,

like, telling people that

I was a passive house

builder, you know, for

a long time, I faked it

until I made it and I've

just been really consistent

with my messaging of this

is what we do, these are

the homes we build, these

are my values as a human

being, you know, the stuff

I do with Sustainable

Builds Alliance people

aren't coming to me for

a cookie cutter home now.

They're coming to Sanctum

Homes for a solution

to the high performance

or it's passive house.

So, I think it's all in the

messaging and it's all in

the brand, like the image

of your brand that you

tell the world, because

how are people going to

know unless you tell them.

a hundred percent.

And I think, was a lot

easier to fake it till

you make it in 2018

with Passive House.

So it's this new world.

Now it's a little bit

harder because there's

people who have runs on

the board and multiple

runs on the board.

So it's not like you

can fake it anymore

because everyone kind

of knows about it.

So they can go find

out like, what did you,

well, what did you build?

And it's like, oh,

I haven't done one.

I totally agree

with you Haym.

It's about brand.

It's about making sure

that people know who you

are, what your values

are, what you stand

for, and it's owning the

channels that you want

to do your marketing on.

If you want to be on

TikTok, Instagram, own it.

You want to be on

website, own it.

Like you have to own

those channels so that

people that you're

funneling through.

Know what you stand for,

and it's a very clear

message like Hamish

said, there shouldn't

be any idea that, of,

like, what you don't do.

it sounds just that

you're already doing a

lot of the things that

you should be doing.

Like, if I look at

your social media.

even your little YouTube

series, and even the

fact that you've told me

today that you've spoken

at events, like, these

are all the things that

I would tell people to

do, and you're doing it.

Like, I think you're,

you're 100 percent

on the right path.

you've just got to

create yourself as the

expert and you have the

runs on the board to

be that expert already.

Do you think it's

facilitated enough

work for you?

Or have you

found uncomfortable,

slow periods?

no, it hasn't, both

Hamish and I have

had jobs drop off.

can I disagree with that

for a second there, Matt?

I think our space is busier

and I'm so happy that

it's busier and I wouldn't

be doing the stuff with

the Sustainable Builders

Alliance if I didn't

want more builders to be

building better stuff.

I was really lucky that

I identified in 2017,

2018, when there was only

a handful of builders in

the passive house space,

I thought, right, one,

I believed in it, and

two, I was passionate

about it, but I could

see that that's where the

industry was going to go.

So I think that I was

very fortunate that

I got in quite early.

So I was able to create

my brand awareness around.

Passive house and high

performance homes.

So I actually think

that's what's allowed

to carry us through

tricky parts, because

we're still getting

phone calls.

And I don't want to

sound arrogant here at

all, but I think that

I'm just reinforcing the

fact that the more you

message, the more you

tell people what you do,

the more people come to

connect those dots, and

then your phone will keep

ringing, even during times

that aren't super busy.

I think what I was

probably, and where I

probably wasn't clear,

the projects we're after,

Ham, and we want the

cream of the projects.

That's the thing, like,

every inquiry that I used

to get through, I wanted

to understand what level

of performance they wanted.

Yeah.

I don't even have that

question anymore because

it is in the description

on every single one on,

hey, we want net zero, hey,

we want high performance,

hey, we're thinking passive

house, , it's not important

to us, but we want to at

least run through all the

modeling and know it, but

they know these key words.

I think the other thing

for us, Hamish, is in

Melbourne specifically,

I would say compared to,

especially in Australia

and New Zealand, we'll put

them together for a minute.

It's probably the most

densely populated area

for people wanting

to build better.

anyway, Josh, we will

wrap this up because

otherwise we'll keep

you here forever.

And I think it's

probably, bit later

for you over there

than it is for us here.

You probably want to go out

and have a beer, but thank

you so much for coming

on and having a chat.

We're definitely

gonna get you back.

Next one will be in person.

We actually get to

meet in person and

we'll do something fun.

Hey man, thanks for coming

on and it's been really

great to actually talk

to you in person, meet

you online, even though

it's not in person.

keep doing what you're

doing because I love

watching the projects

that you build.