[00:00:00] Speaker: The Missional Life Podcast, inspiring Kingdom-minded believers around the world to live the mission of God in their lives.

[00:00:17] Amanda: All

[00:00:19] Dan: welcome back to Michel Life podcast. Today we have Keith Spurgeon on the show. Keith is the pastor, bestselling author and founder of New Hope Church in North Dallas, as well as the Global Leadership Network Growth resourcing Group where he helps equip thousands of leaders across North America, Europe, and Africa.

[00:00:34] Dan: Keith's new book, unknown Explorers, how we can pursue Genuine Connection in a world that's more connected, yet more isolated than ever. Keith, welcome Michelle.

[00:00:43] Amanda: Welcome.

[00:00:45] Keith Spurgin: Thanks, Dan and Amanda. Great to be with you guys. It's an honor.

[00:00:49] Dan: Absolutely. Super. Thank

[00:00:50] Amanda: you.

[00:00:51] Dan: Happy to have you. So, hey, let's just dive right in.

[00:00:54] Dan: Keith, your new book, unknown, it starts with a powerful confession about your own disconnect despite external success. What was the defining moment that made you realize that something just had to change?

[00:01:09] Keith Spurgin: Yeah, I think the defining moment was when my wife said, I feel like you have a mistress. And she didn't mean like a literal person, but like everything I was doing was taking up so much space and so much time and so much energy and so much of my focus.

[00:01:27] Keith Spurgin: She felt like she was getting a leftovers and it was. It was devastating when she said that to me. Because if anybody would've asked me at that point, Hey, who's the most important human in your life? I would've said, Susan is my wife. You know? And I would've meant it with all my heart, but. I realized, man, that doesn't mean other people feel that way, or they're not experiencing me the way that I think they're experiencing me, and I can't be the judge of how other people are experiencing me.

[00:01:56] Keith Spurgin: That was a huge revelation for me, and I just like. Wow, I've gotta make some changes 'cause something is terribly wrong right now and I gotta adjust everything I'm doing and the way I'm doing it. So that was really the moment and it really sent me on a whole new trajectory that I'm very thankful for now.

[00:02:15] Dan: Wow. So let's even go back before that, that was a critical moment, but what was going on in your life before that that led you up to that moment where she's looking at you and like, Hey, like. I know you think you're here, but you're, you're not here. , What was going on in your life?

[00:02:29] Dan: Tell us some of those activities and just even in your own heart and your soul.

[00:02:33] Keith Spurgin: Yeah. Well, we had served in missions like you guys for eight years. We came back home that our local church wanted to launch a new church and they said, we want you to do it. And, and I fought it for a while and then.

[00:02:48] Keith Spurgin: You know, felt like God said, yeah, it's you. And so anyway, we launched this church and it takes off. I mean, it just, it did really well. We had a great launch team and God's Grace was on it and it just. It was very fun. I, I'm a three on the Enneagram, if you're familiar with Enneagram. So, you know, high performer, I want to succeed.

[00:03:09] Keith Spurgin: All those things. I'm going for it. And my wife, you know, wife and our kids, we were all in it together and we had a team and it was great. And, and then it wasn't you know, because, she was all in, but after, you know, four or five years of being put on the back burner and having time when her, for her, when I had time for her.

[00:03:34] Keith Spurgin: That wasn't, that wasn't flying, you know? And I had people, I mean, it was one of those seasons of life where everything just seems to be firing on all cylinders. You know, people all over the world are calling me for advice and asking me to help 'em build teams and build momentum and build organizations.

[00:03:49] Keith Spurgin: And I'm like, this is amazing. I, I've made it, you know? And, and then she comes to me and just like, Hey, I'm not okay, and I feel like you've got a mistress. And it was just. Ah, it was devastating. Honestly, I didn't want to hear it, to tell you the truth. And I think a lot of leaders get in that spot, you know, where, you know, God gives us people in our lives who are trying to speak truth to us, but we're so focused on what we're doing and accomplishing and doing the work of God and all the things, and it's all good and it's all important, but if the people at home are suffering.

[00:04:27] Keith Spurgin: At this point in my life, I'm just like, what difference does it make? You know, what am I really doing? So that's that's what was going on. Yeah.

[00:04:36] Dan: Wow. She was feeling isolated. She was feeling. Alone, as , you heard that. , What did that make you begin to do immediately? Because I know that's a huge thing for leaders and for anybody. Like when you're confronted with something like you

[00:04:49] Keith Spurgin: Yeah.

[00:04:49] Dan: Were quick to admit like, okay, like I want to change this, but what did change look like for you during that point?

[00:04:55] Dan: Case?

[00:04:55] Keith Spurgin: Well, I mean, my first reaction was anger, honestly. I was like, what are you talking about? We're in this together. You we're doing this, you know, what do you mean? And I'm a great dad. I'm a, you know, this is all the things I'm thinking on my head. I might have said a few of 'em out loud, but I'm a great dad.

[00:05:13] Keith Spurgin: I'm coaching our kids in sports. I'm, you know, I'm home for dinner and all the things like that, but there was just this disconnect where she was not getting the best part of me. And that's, that's a big thing I think for. Especially in marriage, you know, who's getting the best version of you? And that's, that's a, that's a question I had to look square in the eye because I was like, if I'm really honest, the people getting the best version of me are the people I work with and the people I serve.

[00:05:47] Keith Spurgin: And the people at home get whatever is left over after everybody else rings me out. And that, that, that was hard to face. It was embarrassing, honestly. 'cause I'm trying to help all these people connect and all these people find life and life in Jesus and connection and relationships and I. At that point I was feeling so disconnected and so alone is like, does anybody get what I'm going through?

[00:06:17] Keith Spurgin: You know? And yeah. It's just, it's a dark time. It's, it's hard.

[00:06:23] Dan: Wow. And I think that's where a lot of people are feeling right now, like they feel like they're connecting. They feel like, Hey, you know, , I've got followers and friends and this and that, and yet. Maybe on the inside of themselves, they're feeling lonely.

[00:06:38] Dan: They're feeling, you know, set apart, maybe wounded. And even those people that they're doing life with are feeling, you know, disconnected from them as well. And so it's this weird situation that we find ourselves in the world that. We connected so many different ways through all these different, , social media and phone and texts and blah, blah, blah.

[00:06:57] Dan: And yet we're, to use your words in your book , unknown, right? In a sense, right? Mm-hmm. And so fast forward, like, tell us about the, this new book and just,, how did the idea come to be , and tell us that process.

[00:07:11] Keith Spurgin: Yeah, the book is called Unknown Finding Connection In a Disconnected World.

[00:07:17] Keith Spurgin: I dunno if anybody can see this, but that's the book. And so, yeah, it's, it, it actually launches today and, really, the idea behind the book is we're more technologically connected than we've ever been in the history of the world, and we're more relationally disconnected than we've ever been at the same time.

[00:07:35] Keith Spurgin: And you know, it's true, we all know that we, we sense that like you can connect with anybody around the world. Like we're in separate countries right now, we're using, and I'm, I'm not against technology, but it's, it's this pseudo connection. That's different from generations before us who had to, to connect with someone, you had to actually talk to them.

[00:07:59] Keith Spurgin: You actually had to be face to face with them. You had to hear their voice at the very least. And now, today, I can literally connect technologically. Almost anybody. I talk to people in Africa on a regular basis while I'm driving down the road. You know, that was unheard of 30 years ago. That was like science fiction or something.

[00:08:22] Keith Spurgin: So we had this sense of connection. You know, we have likes on social media and followers and all the things, but when it comes to that genuine human dynamic of who really knows me. And who do I really know who, who sees me, and who am I really seeing? Because I think there's, there's something hardwired in all of us as human beings to connect and to be genuinely connected with others, to be seen, to be known for who we really are and still loved.

[00:08:59] Keith Spurgin: Because, you know, there's a part of us that's like, man, I don't know if I want people to really know me. 'cause I don't know if they'd still like me. I don't know if I really share what's really going on, or even my story. Maybe, maybe people reject me if, if they really knew me. And so it's scary, you know?

[00:09:17] Keith Spurgin: And so we, we, we choose technology oftentimes because it's less scary. It's, you know, it makes us, gives us the endorphin rush when we get those likes and stuff for our posts, but it's very different to step into a real relationship with another human and really connect and be known and know them as well.

[00:09:39] Amanda: Yeah, it's so interesting. You know, I remember I know we're not talking about food and diet in this, in this episode but just, you know, making the correlation of. Years ago, there was a man who said, , if the American diet continues the way it's going, people are going to be over fed and undernourished.

[00:09:55] Amanda: And it's like we're in an age where if people continue to go the way technology is going, we're going to be. You know, overfed and undernourished in our soul and our relationships Absolutely. Where we have so much coming in, but very little nourishment in that sense. So yeah, just tell us more about just the inspiration for, for writing more of that process and just what God really put on your heart with.

[00:10:21] Amanda: Just reaching people with this, these revelations.

[00:10:26] Keith Spurgin: Amanda, that's such a great analogy over fed and undernourished. That's such a great turn of phrase. I love that. It, it does feel that way. We're overfed with connection, quote unquote. But then we are just undernourished when it comes to the genuine.

[00:10:42] Keith Spurgin: Connection. I think so much of the inspiration came from my own personal journey but also from dealing with people, you know, that's been my whole, my whole adult life is leading people and connecting people and all that. And realizing how, I just had lunch with somebody, a friend of mine, and we were talking about how few people know how to have healthy relationships.

[00:11:07] Keith Spurgin: I mean, just don't know how to do it. How would I do it? And, and sometimes it's, it's this idea that maybe it's like in the movies, you know, somebody will just drop in out of nowhere and it'll be this amazing friendship or this great romance and it'll just work. And that's what I'm waiting for. It doesn't work that way in real life.

[00:11:29] Keith Spurgin: You know, it takes hard work. It's, there's like, there's like really key building blocks that you have to put in place to have healthy relationship, like trust for example. And we just kind of assume, oh, everybody trusts me, do they? And how do you build trust with people and how do you actually build that bank account of trust so that people will.

[00:11:54] Keith Spurgin: Share more of their lives with you and be more, feel more safe with you and be more open with you. So I talk about that in the book, how do you actually do that? And so on my own journey in that as a leader and just assuming people would trust me, and then I remember this, this lady, one day, she was subbing for my administrative assistant and she came in and asked me a question in my office.

[00:12:16] Keith Spurgin: And I answered the question, but I never really looked up for my comp. I'm just working away, you know, and I answered her question and she walked out, she walks back in, she stands the door until I look up at her and she goes, you're the most intimidating boss I've ever worked for. It was day one. I'm like, oh my gosh, I've got so much work to do.

[00:12:38] Keith Spurgin: You know, in just connecting, you know, she just needed a connect. She just needed me to look at her and engage her. And, and just smile at her. You know, , I think there's so many simple things that so many people don't know or they just assume, and it's just so powerful. I remember from that day forward, I just made a decision, I'm gonna smile at everybody.

[00:13:01] Keith Spurgin: I engage, you know, and it's. I was amazed how much more open people were with me just by smiling, you know? It's crazy.

[00:13:11] Amanda: Yeah.

[00:13:12] Dan: Wow. I know we were sharing with we just had a, another guest on the show that brought a very similar point, just how you know, they were so, I. Results oriented, right? Mm-hmm. And that they almost overlook the humanity of the people that were underneath them.

[00:13:28] Dan: Yeah. And so, I know that sometimes even in the church and you, you, the surprises us that like, we can struggle with connections 'cause it's the church, right? We think, oh, we're the body, we're the hand and the feet. And like we all go together so easily. And that's how it's supposed to be.

[00:13:41] Dan: But sometimes that's even. More challenging with the, in the church , and especially those who have driven personalities, who, you know, who want to see things move forward, that we can sometimes, , prioritize performance over the presence and , when we've gone that far, we've gone too far.

[00:13:57] Dan: Right?

[00:13:58] Keith Spurgin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. No doubt about it. Yeah, I, and I, I mean. I'll just be honest with you, I think most I'll just leave, leave it to North America. I think North Amer, most North American churches are led by people who are performing. And I was one of those, you know, and going for the numbers and going for the growth and, and it was all in the name of Man.

[00:14:21] Keith Spurgin: I want to help people and I want more people to engage and all that stuff, but something gets lost in that. When we don't pair that with true connection, deep relationship, being known and fully knowing others and carrying our each other's burdens together, you know, it's just there's just so much more to life than just building something and, I think it's why Jesus said the two greatest commandments are love God and love your neighbor. I mean, those are both relational commandments, you know, to love God, to be in a real relationship with him, to love your neighbor. And then he went on to define who your neighbor is, and he defines the neighbor as a Samaritan who was a political and religious enemy of the people he is talking to.

[00:15:08] Keith Spurgin: And I think about how divided we are. As a as, as a in the world, but certainly in the US we're so divided and many times that division is being driven by people who claim to follow Jesus. And I'm like, wait a minute. Jesus said, blessed are the peacemakers, the bridge builders for they will be called children of God.

[00:15:30] Keith Spurgin: I think the reason he said that is because when we're bridge builders, we look like our father. That's why he said you'll be called children of God. And, and, and so often our, our social media posts, our ranting and our raving is driving people apart rather than pulling people together. And I think that's the opposite of what Jesus has called us to do and to be.

[00:15:54] Keith Spurgin: And so, yeah. Loving people. Well connecting. Well building real relationships. It's the work of the kingdom.

[00:16:03] Dan: Amen.

[00:16:04] Amanda: So good.

[00:16:04] Dan: So well said.

[00:16:05] Amanda: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:05] Dan: You know, you said something earlier. , You made a contrast between some of the different things that you've experienced in the US Church and even some of the places that you travel.

[00:16:15] Dan: You travel extensively around the world. Mm-hmm. And is this something that's unique, , this being unknown or being almost alone or isolated? Is this something that's unique to the US or is this something that's, that is a global phenomenon? What does that look like in different places around the world that you've been ministering in?

[00:16:35] Keith Spurgin: Yeah. In my experience, every culture has strengths and weaknesses. You know, just like people, I think we all, as humans, wrestle with feeling unknown at times. We all, I mean, I don't care where you're from, you're gonna have a wrestle with that. But cultures have strengths and weaknesses. You think about African culture and the whole idea of umuntu they call it which is this idea of I am because we are.

[00:17:02] Keith Spurgin: I love that I am because we are, and and that's, that's foreign to us as Westerners, you know, as, as European based people or North Americans, Australians, whatever that that's, that's like what? Wait a second. I am because we, no, I'm just me, you know? No, yes. We're so individualistic

[00:17:21] Dan: a hundred,

[00:17:22] Keith Spurgin: and I think that's to our detriment, honestly.

[00:17:25] Keith Spurgin: Because we, we, we have this idea, I'm gonna make it amount, I'm gonna pull myself up by my bootstraps. I'm gonna do this thing. And you know, I'm from Texas. We take that to a whole nother level. You're like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps on steroids, you know? Yes. So. I think it's to our detriment, honestly.

[00:17:45] Keith Spurgin: I mean, there's some good to that. Obviously, you know, you people work hard and all that kind of stuff, but it leaves us wanting, when it comes to true connection and depth of relationship because the fact that you need other people in your life does not make you weak. It makes you human. Yeah. That's who you are.

[00:18:07] Keith Spurgin: We are hardwired for connection as humans. It's not weakness, it's our design that, that God gave us, we're made in His image. What is he? He's a, he's a triune, symbiotic relationship. Father, son, and Holy Spirit. We are made in that image. We are made for relationship. So when we try to live isolated or on our own, or I'm gonna do it on my own or whatever, independent we're actually operating against our nature and really against the kingdom of God.

[00:18:40] Keith Spurgin: And so, yeah, it's, it's a big deal. This is not a small thing we're talking about.

[00:18:46] Dan: Yeah. Well, I'm so glad you said that., In your book, I know this is a really major thing that connection actually impacts our spiritual lives. Right. And

[00:18:54] Dan: That loneliness and spiritual dryness are actually related. Can you tell us more about that?

[00:19:01] Keith Spurgin: Yeah, loneliness. When we're not connected with God we feel alone. And when we feel alone, we feel distance from our father. The reality is he's always there. He never leaves us.

[00:19:18] Keith Spurgin: He never forsakes us, but, but human relationships are part of the way God connects us even with himself. Which is why like in first John, where John says, you know, how can you say that you love God when you hate your brother? When you, you can't even see God, you can see your brother. What are you talking about?

[00:19:41] Keith Spurgin: That doesn't, it doesn't work that way. It's like, you know, you're in, somebody's in worship or something. I love you, Lord. I hate them, but I love you and we all know that's ridiculous, right? It doesn't make any sense. And yet we so easily. Lean into isolation, especially when we get hurt. You know, we get hurt by somebody.

[00:20:02] Keith Spurgin: There's pain, there's a struggle in a relationship. So our immediate reaction is to isolate. We pull back as opposed to leaning in. When you pull back from humans and you say, well, I'm not gonna relate with these people, in essence, we're pulling back from God because you can't say, I love God and hate my, hate your brother.

[00:20:22] Keith Spurgin: At the same time, it doesn't work that way. So I, the, the, the quality of my relationships is a measure of the quality of my relationship with God. Ooh.

[00:20:35] Dan: Wow.

[00:20:35] Keith Spurgin: So, yeah.

[00:20:39] Dan: Let that sink in for a second. That's pretty, that's pretty,

[00:20:41] Keith Spurgin: woo.

[00:20:43] Dan: That's that. That's pretty deep and yet so revealing, right? Yeah. I mean, we are meant to be in fellowship with people and you know, I even thinking about how, you know, .

[00:20:52] Dan: Adam and Eve, , as soon as they took that, they ran, they isolated themselves exactly . From the father and they just wanted to be by themselves. And that was like the worst place that they could be is away from the father. And yet, , when we go through things, when we go through situations, when we mess it up, man, we just wanna isolate.

[00:21:07] Dan: We wanna go quick run. , Like you said earlier, we don't want people to truly know who we are. , If they know that, then they won't like me, then they won't love me, they won't respect me, or, you know, whatever that looks like.

[00:21:17] Keith Spurgin: Yeah.

[00:21:18] Dan: And yet we serve a father who. ?

[00:21:20] Dan: Who come and pursues us, and who still desires to have that fellowship? Who wants to know us and who knows us better than anyone else yet loves us more than anyone else.

[00:21:31] Keith Spurgin: Yep. That's who he is and that's who he calls us to be. Which is challenging sometimes 'cause people are a pain in the rear sometimes, you know?

[00:21:42] Keith Spurgin: But. So are we. That's the point. I think that's why he says forgive as you've been forgiven. 'cause we were all, we all have our issues, but yeah. Our reaction to pain or disappointment hurt, however you wanna say it, or rejection. Our react, our natural reaction to that is just like Adam and Eve to go and hide.

[00:22:09] Keith Spurgin: What we do, we wanna hide and lick our wounds and it's the exact opposite of what we need to do. I mean, you think about people go through difficult things and oftentimes they will just you, it's like where'd they go? You know? Or somebody gets hurt at church or they get hurt at school, or they get hurt at work, or they get hurt and you know what your sports event you're at, they get hurt, you know, emotionally.

[00:22:33] Keith Spurgin: In a relationship and then all of a sudden you don't see it. You're like, where are they? Where'd they go? They were like so involved and now they're just gone. I have never seen a situation where that was healthy for the person who disappeared.

[00:22:47] Dan: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:47] Keith Spurgin: Never. Because the more isolated we are, the more unhealthy we are and our pain doesn't get better.

[00:22:55] Keith Spurgin: It festers 'cause we're not dealing with it and which is why. Healthy relationship and learning to deal with conflict in healthy ways is one of the greatest signs of maturity in our lives that we have. The, the more you're able to lean into conflict and deal with it in healthy ways and work through it, the more healthy you are as a human.

[00:23:21] Keith Spurgin: The less you're able to do that, the more un it's, that's, that's a barometer for you, us to look at our lives. How mature am I? Am I really mature? Am I really healthy? How do you, how are you dealing with conflict? Are you running and hiding or are you leaning in and trying to go there and own your stuff and engage it?

[00:23:39] Keith Spurgin: It is, it's like pe you know, you probably heard this before, you know, like the first person to apologize is usually the most mature person in the relationship. That's, that's one of the healthy ways that we deal with conflict is when we have a conflict, rather than throwing blame on the other person, which is exactly what Adam and Eve did by the way that you brought them up.

[00:24:01] Keith Spurgin: They threw blame on the other person. Adam threw blame on Eve e threw blame on the serpent. Nobody owned anything. But that's a mature response would be to say, okay, what's my part? We've got a conflict here. If we're two adults in a relationship and there's a conflict, almost always, there's something to own for both parties.

[00:24:25] Keith Spurgin: So what can I own? And how can I name that to this person? A way they can hear it, and I can honestly ask forgiveness. Oh my gosh. When you do that, the other person's like, oh, okay, well let me own some of my stuff too. I mean, not always, but a lot of times that's the way it works. But we get in these battles of like, I'm gonna prove to you that I'm right.

[00:24:51] Keith Spurgin: That never accomplishes anything. It's like politicians fighting with each other. Are they ever gonna convince each other of anything? No. So we get with each other. We get in these relationships where I'm gonna convince you that I'm right. Well, I'm gonna convince you I'm right. What if you just owned your part?

[00:25:06] Keith Spurgin: Oh, all of a sudden the other person's like, yeah, let's talk. Let, let's have a conversation. It's counterintuitive, but it's so powerful.

[00:25:18] Dan: Yeah. Wow. That's gold right there.

[00:25:21] Keith Spurgin: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:21] Dan: I think it's just so important, like you said, that you know when you own what's on you. It invites the other person really to respond accordingly.

[00:25:31] Dan: Right. But so many times, like you said, we try to keep those those barriers up , and in some ways, , we're trying to prove to ourselves or, , we don't wanna own a mistake because that would admit, that would make them know that we're not perfect or which they

[00:25:43] Keith Spurgin: already know, by the way.

[00:25:45] Dan: Right, right. And I was just thinking that, as we have these, her, as we have these, . Promptings or urges to really go self isolate, to, to be away from situations that have hurt us or be away from people that have hurt us. What that really does is, is just a snowball effect

[00:26:03] Dan: i'm thinking about the verse of that. The devil goes around like aro roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. And who's he go after? He's not going after the herd. He's going after the, the one that's isolated. He's going after the one that's sickly or lagging behind a little bit.

[00:26:17] Dan: Or just not paying attention enough. Right. And . It invites us to be more isolated, to be more hurt, to, , start struggling on the inside more than we need to be. But it also invites other things, spiritually into our lives as well.

[00:26:30] Keith Spurgin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, I, I'll say it very simply and then I'll kind of unpack it, but God operates in the light.

[00:26:38] Keith Spurgin: The enemy operates in the darkness.

[00:26:40] Dan: Yes.

[00:26:41] Amanda: Yes.

[00:26:41] Keith Spurgin: So you think about that in relationships when we hide in the dark. That's the enemy's territory.

[00:26:49] Dan: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:49] Keith Spurgin: When you go isolate and hide, try to cover everything up, that's the, that's the enemy's playground. You are let, you are putting, making yourself susceptible to all of his whiles.

[00:27:04] Keith Spurgin: However, if you step into the light. As he is in the light. So this is first John chapter one, verse seven. If you step in the light as he is in the light, you'll have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus' son purifies us from all sin. So when we step into the light, two things happen. Our relationship with other people gets better, and our relationship with God gets better.

[00:27:29] Keith Spurgin: I mean, that's crazy, right? But step what? So what does it mean to step into the light? Well, what does light do? Light reveals what is hidden. Light reveals what is in the dark. So when we open our lives up to other pe, well to God and to other people, we're stepping into the light where God can work. Where he can heal us, where he can restore us, where he can set us free, where he can build life-giving relationships with other people.

[00:27:56] Keith Spurgin: That's the power of the light and the temp. The, the, the temptation of the enemy is always before us to go hide. To go into the darkness, to to pull away, to isolate, to step back, to build walls. So nobody hurts me anymore. The problem with building walls, you know, 'cause we are like, I'm gonna build this. I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep my distance from people so they don't hurt me anymore.

[00:28:22] Keith Spurgin: Because we're hardwired for connection. That only creates more pain for us. 'cause we feel alone and we feel distant from people. We're like, where is everybody? Well, you've got this gigantic wall up so nobody can get through. So God is constantly inviting us into the light. He's saying, come on into the light because that's where I am and I want to heal you.

[00:28:44] Keith Spurgin: But it's always our option. God never forces it. I mean, another, another way I like to say this is God will only heal what I'm willing to reveal. So when I step into the light, there's healing and wholeness and freedom There. Because God's a gentleman, he's not gonna force me. He's just gonna always invite me and I get to choose and which way we choose.

[00:29:10] Keith Spurgin: We can either choose the darkness, which is the enemy's playground, or we can choose the light where God's gonna bring life and healing and purpose and connection and all the things that he wants to do. So I'm constantly encouraging people. Step into the light, man, whatever you're hiding. God already knows, might as well tell him.

[00:29:27] Keith Spurgin: And you need some other trusted people in your life, what I call an inner circle, a band of brothers or a band or a circle of sisters who can come around you and you guys can talk about real stuff that's really going on with you. 'cause when you start to do that, man. The light of God breaks in and powerful things happen.

[00:29:50] Dan: I want to go a little bit deeper on that, , because there's a lot of people that would say, yeah, Keith , , but I, I am at church and I'm involved with this and I'm surrounded by so many different people.

[00:30:00] Keith Spurgin: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:01] Dan: And yet you really make a distinction between being surrounded and being known.

[00:30:06] Dan: And I'm just wondering if you could explain that to us.

[00:30:09] Keith Spurgin: Yeah. So I, I'll take this let's use Jesus as an example. So Jesus starts his earthly ministry after being tempted in the desert. Mm-hmm. And the first thing that he does is he builds a team. That's the first thing he does. He goes and invites these guys to be on his team, in his inner circle.

[00:30:27] Keith Spurgin: And, and even within that, he has an inner circle within that. He's got Peter, James, and John who get to have experiences with him that nobody else gets to have.

[00:30:36] Dan: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:36] Keith Spurgin: That, that's his inner inner circle. And all of us as humans need an inner circle in our lives. We need a band of brothers or a circle of sisters.

[00:30:48] Keith Spurgin: Who know us. They know everything they can. I mean, you we're sharing our lives with them. They know everything that we can possibly share with them about ourselves, and they are sharing with us in a similar way. Now, this takes effort. This is not easy, what I'm talking about, because it's vulnerable. It's risky.

[00:31:08] Keith Spurgin: Because you're gonna have some people who you invite in your inner circle who shouldn't be there because you're human and you don't know. And, and you're gonna get hurt at times. That doesn't mean you should give up on it. It, it means you haven't got the right people yet on the bus. So you gotta get the right people with the same values that you have.

[00:31:28] Keith Spurgin: And the only way to find that out is to build relationship with them and, and, and share more of yourself. And yes, it's risky, but here's the thing, there is no passion without risk. We all want passionate relationships. If I ask people all the time, like, what kind of relationship do you want with the people closest to you?

[00:31:46] Keith Spurgin: They never use words like boring, stagnant, stale, same old, same old, status quo. Nobody says that. They all say, man, I want relationships that are alive and real and adventurous and exciting. And I'm like, yes, those are all words of passion, but the only way you get that kind of passion is to take risk.

[00:32:08] Keith Spurgin: That's where passion comes from. It's like your relationship. People sometimes will tell me, they'll be like, oh, my relationship with God has gotten stale. I'm like, well, when's the last time you took a risk with God? Because until you take a risk with God, if you step into something that he's asking you to step into, that if he doesn't show up, you're gonna fall flat on your face.

[00:32:27] Keith Spurgin: You're, you're not gonna have any passion. It's boring. You don't need him. That's, I mean, that's why there's, that's the whole idea behind faith. You know, anything without faith is not of God. So. God is constantly inviting us to take a risk, and that's true in our relationships as well. So we've gotta take some risk to build some deep relationships with a few people.

[00:32:50] Keith Spurgin: It doesn't have to be a lot. Some of these pe, some of the people listening right now are probably introverts and they're like, oh, this sounds terrible. I'm talking about 50 people. I'm talking about two or three people. Jesus had three in his inner inner circle. So, you know, there's that. And so two or three people that really know you, you are equipping them to really know you and they and you, they really know you and you really know them.

[00:33:19] Keith Spurgin: And part of the reason this is so important, guys, is because we are all gonna have moments in our lives when we need our inner circle. And if we have not equipped some people to be there, for us to really know us at that deep heart level, we're likely gonna be very disappointed when we hit that spot of needing an inner circle of how our supposed inner circle responds to us.

[00:33:45] Keith Spurgin: Because they don't know us, we don't know the depths of our heart. They don't know who we really are, so they don't know how to respond in the way that would be the best for you. This is. So, yeah, this stuff is not easy, but it's so powerful in our lives and when you start to build these kind of relationships, it changes everything.

[00:34:07] Keith Spurgin: I've got some of the best relationships in my life right now, and 30 years ago it wasn't like that. It just wasn't, 'cause I hadn't done the work. I hadn't done the work to build those kind of relationships, but when you do, man, there's so much life there and so much joy and you feel when you feel known and still loved.

[00:34:29] Keith Spurgin: There's nothing better than that. That's the best. You really know me, even my bad stuff, and you still love me. Okay, I'm in. I like that.

[00:34:40] Dan: Wow.

[00:34:41] Dan: It's so powerful and so impacting and so freeing, because that's really what our relationship is with God. Right?

[00:34:47] Keith Spurgin: Exactly.

[00:34:48] Dan: Right. It's so pure and so desirable because that's what we desire from the Lord, right? Yes. So, so amazing. Wow. Mm-hmm. ? Yet, , what you're speaking about. , I think most of us would say, yeah, like, we can do it, , but people who are in leadership positions, you know?

[00:35:05] Keith Spurgin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:35:06] Dan: They don't necessarily want those kind of relationships or they're, they're a little concerned about those sorts of things. I mean, in some ways, rightfully so. Right. And so I'm just wondering, , , is the idea of not having that inner circle around leaders, is that one of the biggest.

[00:35:22] Dan: Relational mistakes that you see leaders making today, or is it something else

[00:35:25] Keith Spurgin: such a great question, Dan. 100% to your question. We have so many leaders that are falling leaders that are super disappointing and it's not because they're bad people or they started off, they, these people started off with great intentions and the anointing of God is on their lives and all this stuff, but.

[00:35:51] Keith Spurgin: The more, how do I say this? I'll just say it this way. The bigger you become as a leader, the less people there are who feel like they can speak into your life.

[00:36:03] Amanda: Mm.

[00:36:04] Keith Spurgin: That it's just the way it works. And so the more influence you have, the fewer people there are who feel that freedom to speak into your life.

[00:36:13] Keith Spurgin: And we all need people speaking into our lives because we all have blind spots. I mean, I have blind spots. I don't know what they are 'cause I can't see 'em. That's why they're called blind spots, right? You have blind spots. I have blind spots. Everybody has blind spots, so we need other people. Who have the freedom to speak into our lives in real ways.

[00:36:34] Keith Spurgin: That's what an inner circle does for us. You can have all the structure in the world. I, I can't tell you how many leaders I've talked to who had organizational structure off the charts, oh, I've got all this accountability. I've got this person is over me and that person is over me and this and that. And, but if you don't have genuine relationship with those people.

[00:36:57] Keith Spurgin: Where they have the freedom to speak in and you've experienced that and it's gone well, you're isolated. And I just think until leaders begin to understand, I, I can't do this on my own and equip people around them to, to share honestly with them. You are just, yeah, leadership's gonna be very lonely and you're just susceptible to whatever it is in your life where you have a weakness.

[00:37:31] Keith Spurgin: I think as a leader, one of the, one of my practices is to regularly say to the key people in my life, you have freedom to say anything you feel like you need to say to me. And when they do, I'm very intentional to thank them, even if I don't agree with them, even if it's hard to hear. Thank you for speaking to me.

[00:37:55] Keith Spurgin: Thank you for saying what was really hard to say and it, what it does is it empowers people then to say, okay, you know, even if he didn't agree with me, he's open to hear from me. And I think that's so, so vitally important for us as leaders to do that on a regular, i I, I say every six months, you gotta remind people, 'cause life happens and stuff happens and they, they think, oh, I don't know if he's still open.

[00:38:21] Keith Spurgin: Every six months. I gotta tell my people. Okay guys, I just want you to know, you can say anything that you feel like you need to say to me and I'm gonna take it very seriously and I'm gonna take it to God and I'm gonna process it and we'll talk about it.

[00:38:36] Amanda: Yeah, that's so good. 'cause even, , in today's culture's, so easy to just create that, go with that, cancel culture mentality and you know, curate our, mm-hmm.

[00:38:45] Amanda: , Our friendships, our social media feeds, all of those things. And then create an echo chamber where of course we're right, , this information says we're right. This information says I'm doing this well, , but there's such a lack of, , being known and when that happens, right?

[00:39:02] Amanda: It's just reinforcing. , That we, have blind spots essentially, that we need those people and those voices of wisdom speaking into us.

[00:39:12] Dan: Okay. Okay. So I'm push a little bit harder on this. Keep, like, let's, let's push a little bit more into this.

[00:39:18] Keith Spurgin: Yeah. So

[00:39:19] Dan: for the person that's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:39:21] Dan: I agree. I get it. Okay. But for individuals and for leaders, right? How do we discern between a healthy vulnerability and oversharing, right? Mm-hmm. Like where, where is some of that line between like blah and, , strategically or, .

[00:39:35] Dan: Discerningly sharing, , with the right people, the right thing at the right time,?

[00:39:41] Keith Spurgin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, relationships are built over time. You can't go from zero to 60 and. Five seconds doesn't work that way. We've all experienced people like you meet 'em for the first time and they share their entire life with you.

[00:39:55] Keith Spurgin: That's just weird, right? Nobody, that's just weird. So you don't start off, you know, with, okay, I'm just going to vomit my entire life on you. You, you do it in increments, you know, and that's kind of how you test the water. People often ask me, how do I, how do I even start? I'm like, well, start by taking a risk.

[00:40:15] Keith Spurgin: You know, if there's somebody in your life that you're thinking, man, I'd like to take this relationship a little, I feel like this is somebody I, I really enjoy being around. I'd like to take this relationship a little farther. This could be a friendship, romantic relationship business, relationship ministry, whatever it is.

[00:40:30] Keith Spurgin: Like, take this relationship a little farther. Well, one of the best ways to do that is to maybe go to coffee. You're having a regular conversation and then say, I'm gonna, okay, I'm gonna share, you don't have to say this, but you just do it. I'm just share something about two levels, more vulnerably than you would've shared it normally.

[00:40:54] Keith Spurgin: And see how they respond. Because if, if they respond with changing the subject or gaslighting you or, wow, that's dumb, I never would've said that then, you know, that's not someone you can go to the next level with. But if they respond well, if they ask questions, they're curious. Or if they're like, yeah, I feel that way sometimes too, or, or whatever, then it's like, okay.

[00:41:17] Keith Spurgin: Now I realize I can, I can trust this relationship and I can, and now the next time I'm gonna share a little bit more and I may invite them, Hey, I'd love to hear some of your journey and some of the pain that you've been through and some of the things that you've struggled with. And you start to build rapport with each other based on.

[00:41:37] Keith Spurgin: What I call a bank account of trust. And, and we're all gonna mess up, right? Trust is a foundation of relationship. You, without trust, you don't have a relationship. You have an acquaintance or you have an enemy, that that's, that's what you have. So trust is the foundation. So you're building trust over time.

[00:41:56] Keith Spurgin: And, and here's the problem. We're all gonna mess up at times. We're all gonna make withdrawals from that trust account. The key is to build that trust account up enough that when those withdrawals are made, you don't bring it down to zero. You're just, it's just a little withdrawal. Oh, you said the wrong thing.

[00:42:14] Keith Spurgin: Oh, you made a mistake. You, you, you did this quick little story. Susan and I, and my wife and I, and we have these friends, Stan and Lynn, and we were on a vacation together one year. Well, Lynn and I have known each other forever and been building a, we've worked together and we built a trust account forever.

[00:42:31] Keith Spurgin: We're on this vacation. I'm driving. She's in the back with a GPS and we're in Boston on this roundabout, and she's, I said, which way am I going? She goes, turn left. Turn, left turn, she just kept saying, turn left, turn left. And we're, we're just, I mean, you know, it's Chevy Chase, you know, in VA Christmas vacation.

[00:42:50] Keith Spurgin: And finally I'm like, what? Tell me a direction besides left. You know, I just kinda lost it on her and she yelled back at me. Wow. That's all it says. And I'm, I'm turning it. Anyway, it was one of those moments, you know, that for some relationships that would've been devastating. But because we had been building trust for decades, wow.

[00:43:11] Keith Spurgin: It was no big deal. After we got straightened out and the GPS recalibrated, we, we reconnected and said, oh, I'm sorry, and we're sorry. And it was not, it was nothing, but it was because we've, we've been intentional over the years to build that trust account and that's how you get to that place, Dan, that I'm talking about.

[00:43:31] Keith Spurgin: It takes time and it takes energy and it takes intentionality to be that, to to start with little vulnerability and then more and more vulnerability so that you can build trust with one another. I hope that answers your question

[00:43:46] Dan: so good. Wow, so amazing.

[00:43:48] Amanda: Yeah. You know, and as you were just talking about taking risk, , I think listeners need to hear this and all of us should be reminded of this too, is that it's actually a bigger risk not to take any risk at all.

[00:43:59] Amanda: There's that really good quote by CS Lewis that talks about if we isolate ourselves, that, you know, essentially we become, , unfeeling and Yeah, stagnant and Absolutely. So, without taking a risk, then there's a certainty of an outcome that really nobody wants. Nobody wants to be alone.

[00:44:20] Amanda: . Again, just encouraging people, even if you've been hurt in the past, you know, even if there's a situation that's hard right now to keep pressing in, and I love those, tools you said, just, you know, test the waters a little bit like you shared earlier. Just, just see what the response is and then you can kind of determine, okay, can I, can I take this little bit more, you know, in a, in a friendship?

[00:44:42] Amanda: And I, I think that's so, so good to have, have that as a roadmap of, yeah. Okay, I'll, I'll just try a little bit before I dump everything out to this person, so that's, that's so helpful.

[00:44:56] Keith Spurgin: Yeah. Thank you Amanda And Dan, just to your thing too, as for leaders especially, I know it's scary because sometimes when we share vulnerably as leaders, what we share gets used against us later, and that's true.

[00:45:14] Keith Spurgin: That's absolutely true. And that can stop you. And you can say at that point, well, I'm just not gonna do it anymore. I just think to Amanda's point, that's such a huge mistake. Because we are not designed to do life alone, but we're not also not designed to do leadership alone. And you hear so many leaders saying, oh, it's so lonely.

[00:45:34] Keith Spurgin: Well. Okay. It doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be. And there are, there's gonna be pain points. There's gonna be people who do you wrong and there's gonna be people who betray you, but that doesn't mean everybody's gonna betray you. So yeah, you gotta take a risk and keep leaning in.

[00:45:52] Dan: So, good. Well, we wanna be conscious of your.

[00:45:55] Dan: Of your time, Keith, , I have one, one more question here I wanna ask, if, , you were speaking to that one listener that feels lonely right now, you know, , give them a couple things just tactically that they could do, like right now, like the first step to.

[00:46:12] Dan: To not feel lonely or to, to, to break out of that other than go buy, you know, the new book unknown. Find the connection in a disconnected world.

[00:46:22] Keith Spurgin: Yeah, I hope they will buy my book. That would be great. But the, the first thing I would say, if, if that's you, if you're feeling lonely and disconnected alone I would say first of all.

[00:46:32] Keith Spurgin: You're not alone. I've been there. Everybody's been there. We all have days and seasons even where we feel isolated. We feel alone. We feel like we're the only one. And so in that sense, you're not alone. You know, we, it's part of, part of the human experience on this broken planet. But beyond that, I would say there's hope.

[00:46:56] Keith Spurgin: And the hope is that there are people out there who want to have genuine relationship with you. Practically stop waiting for other people to take the initiative. Hmm. It, it, very, very few really good things happen in our lives by passivity as, as very few if we really want great relationships, we've gotta put ourselves in situations where we can build those relationships.

[00:47:28] Keith Spurgin: You know, being, being involved in something. Obviously being involved in a church would be a great way, but if you're, if you're not willing to do that. Maybe find a club. That's an interesting thing. I, I'm part of a cycling club, you know, so I build all kinds of relationships with cyclists and there's something that you love or that matters to you.

[00:47:48] Keith Spurgin: Don't just sit at home and think, oh man, I hope someday God gives me. A positive relationship in my life. He's given you people all around you. This world is full of people, you know, and somehow you're gonna have to put yourself and, and it's risky. I get it. It's risky. It's, and it, and it is painful at times.

[00:48:11] Keith Spurgin: But as we've talked about, you start with a little bitty risk. Build and, and build from there. And, and again, and I, this sounds self-serving, but genuinely the sec, the whole second section of my book is how do you practically build healthy relationships? So I, I would love for you to get ahold of that and I don't have time to unpack all of that today.

[00:48:34] Dan: Sure.

[00:48:34] Keith Spurgin: But I think it would really be helpful. For anybody who's in that spot. So yeah.

[00:48:40] Dan: Yeah. I mispoke. I shouldn't say other than, but in addition to getting Keith's book, man, like that's what we need. Right? Keith, , so amazing to just dive deep with you and just hear, man your heart, and we just, gosh, it's just.

[00:48:53] Dan: Such a, such like the heart of the father , just desiring fellowship and desiring others to be in fellowship and to be known and just to be loved. And so, thank you so much for just sharing that , you know, we, always like to, and with a few lighter questions, , just to kind right to pull out of things.

[00:49:09] Dan: And so, , for the first one Keith. If you could have dinner with any biblical character, get to know them, them, get them, get to know you a little bit, be known by them besides Jesus, who would it

[00:49:21] Keith Spurgin: be? Yeah.

[00:49:21] Dan: Why?

[00:49:22] Keith Spurgin: It would be Joseph. Joseph's my favorite dude in the Old Testament, and I just, I just love, I, I love the journey he was on.

[00:49:32] Keith Spurgin: I would love to ask him, man. Tell me how it felt when your brothers betrayed you and sold you into slavery. I mean, I think I know, but I don't really know. And tell me how it felt when you got tricked by Potiphar's wife and tell me how it felt when Pharaoh elevated you. I mean, I just wanna know, you know, it, it was just, it's such an amazing story and I love how God used him, so.

[00:49:57] Keith Spurgin: That would be my guy.

[00:49:59] Dan: All right, cool. We got, got a fun one here. This one's a little, little abstract here, Keith. If loneliness, if we called loneliness a flavor, what would it taste like and how would you describe the taste of connection in contrast?

[00:50:16] Keith Spurgin: If loneliness were a flavor,

[00:50:18] Keith Spurgin: flavor. It would be the flavor of pickles.

[00:50:24] Keith Spurgin: I don't like pickles, so, yeah, they kind of just kind of, eh, makes you. Your teeth set on edge, you know? So that would be my answer to that one.

[00:50:36] Dan: Awesome, awesome. Well, the new book, unknown Finding Connection in a Disconnected World, Keith. What an awesome just tool for people to get ahold of and to really just build themselves up and being known by other people, knowing other people, having God just speaking into their lives.

[00:50:54] Dan: , Tell our listeners how they can connect with you. How can they get ahold of the book and just tell us all the details.

[00:51:01] Keith Spurgin: Yeah, for any of your audience that's interested in the book it can be found, found anywhere. Books are sold online or in person. And I have a website, keith spurgeon.net, so K-E-I-T-H-S-P-U-R-G-I n.net and you can find the book there as well.

[00:51:19] Keith Spurgin: Also some blogs I've written and information of how to get in touch with me and yeah, I'd love for people to connect. That would be great.

[00:51:27] Dan: Absolutely. As always, listeners, we'll have those in the show notes for you. Keith, what an honor to have you on the show. Thank you so much for sharing just your wisdom and your revelation with us.

[00:51:36] Dan: We just we're excited for this new book. We're excited how God is just gonna bring freedom to so many through it, and we just look forward to seeing fruit from it and just seeing how God is continuing to use you and your minister. Keith.

[00:51:47] Keith Spurgin: Thank you, Dan and Amanda so much. This has been a really fun conversation and honor to be with you guys.

[00:51:52] Keith Spurgin: Thank you.

[00:51:53] Dan: Blessing. .

[00:51:54] Speaker 2: Right. Thanks for joining us today on the Mission Life Podcast. You enjoyed this episode. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss out on future conversations. And don't forget to share this episode with your friends, family, or anyone you think will be blessed by it. We also wanna invite you to check out our free 31 Day Devotional Living and Mission, all life designed to help you step forward into the purpose he has for you.

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