[00:00:00] Andrew Pace: It's around the house. It's still amazes me that people use carpeting in their house. Carpeting first and foremost is usually the most evil material you can surround yourself with. Now I'll tell all my clients, 90 percent of the chemical off gassing inside of a home will come from the things and touch after you're within the space.

[00:00:27] Andrew Pace: Flooring is number one because it's a large area you're dealing with and. It's usually a thicker material. So thicker materials will off gas longer. When it comes to remodeling and renovating your home, there is a lot to know, but we've got

[00:00:42] Eric Goranson: you covered. This

[00:00:45] Intro: is Around the

[00:00:45] Eric Goranson: House. Hey guys, RG from Around the House Show.

[00:00:49] Eric Goranson: I am enjoying an R& R weekend, getting some rest. And we have a great best of episode here with myself, my former co host, Caroline Blazowski, America's Healthy [00:01:00] Home Expert. And of course Healthy home expert, Andrew Pace. You don't want to miss this one. It's a classic and it's a good one. Let's talk healthy homes.

[00:01:09] Eric Goranson: Welcome to around the house with Eric G and Caroline B where we talk home improvement, healthy homes, interior design every single weekend. Thanks for joining us today. Caroline and I have a special guest in the studio today, right? Caroline? I am

[00:01:24] Caroline Blazovsky: stoked. I am so excited. One, I consider him a friend, so I put him in the friend category, but as he's also a colleague.

[00:01:32] Caroline Blazovsky: And he's also an amazing healthy home consultant. So I'm thrilled to have him and I look up to him for advice. So yay. Hey, here he is. Andrew Pace.

[00:01:42] Andrew Pace: Wow. Thank you very much for that introduction. I hope I can live up to that.

[00:01:48] Caroline Blazovsky: It's all true.

[00:01:50] Eric Goranson: So if you don't know who Andrew Pace is, he is a legend out in the green design, green building world.

[00:01:59] Eric Goranson: [00:02:00] And let's talk about you for a minute. So, since this is the first time on around the house, let's

[00:02:03] Andrew Pace: let's build the story. All right. I guess my best way to go is my background. I got out of got of school. I actually, I, my family has owned a commercial construction material supply company that dates back to 1937 here in Wisconsin.

[00:02:18] Caroline Blazovsky: Wow. .

[00:02:18] Andrew Pace: And so growing up around the dinner table, we didn't really talk about school and sports and things like that. We talked about architects and contractors, and projects, , so I learned at an early age. All about the industry. And so get out of school. What do I want to do? I want to work for the family business.

[00:02:39] Andrew Pace: And I convinced my father that it was, I would be a good addition to the company. He was really encouraging me to spread my wings and do whatever I want to do. But I honestly just had this desire. To be in the world of commercial architecture and design. My first gig, my first [00:03:00] big job as a product representative was to work with engineers and concrete contractors to specify and supply these really high tech concrete coatings, nice, or below grade parking structures.

[00:03:19] Andrew Pace: For animal clinics, for airplane hangers. And I was supplying the material for a below grade parking structure in Milwaukee, about three floors of parking below a 16 story condo complex. And this is 1992. So we all thought water basement safe, right?

[00:03:45] Eric Goranson: That's how it started out. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:03:46] Andrew Pace: That's what we thought. And so we, but we still took precautions. We put up the plastic, we covered up all the air ducts just to make sure that no dust and no chemical fumes went throughout the building. After the primer [00:04:00] coat was applied, we started getting phone calls from people living in the condos above.

[00:04:05] Andrew Pace: Now, It wasn't like one of these psychosomatic reactions because they saw cans being opened. They couldn't see a thing. They just complained about the fumes. Yeah. One of the, one of the, one of the, one of the condos was owned by a U S Senator who happened to have his Milwaukee office right there in that condo building.

[00:04:33] Andrew Pace: And he complained. That's never good.

[00:04:35] Eric Goranson: That's never good. When you have those guys complaining.

[00:04:37] Andrew Pace: No, I don't want to be on some list, think the big thing, the big event that happened was we actually had three of our own workers rushed to the hospital because of inhalation complications.

[00:04:47] Andrew Pace: Oh, so if you think about the curing process, and of course I was 22 years old, I wasn't thinking about curing processes. You were thinking about whiskey

[00:04:57] Caroline Blazovsky: and scotch, I know you.

[00:04:59] Andrew Pace: I [00:05:00] was getting there. I was getting there. And so at at that point I learned about the curing process and what happens is during the curing process, the coating actually takes oxygen out of the air.

[00:05:14] Andrew Pace: And it's replacing it with this solvent. And so our workers couldn't breathe because of the codings we are providing. Put the job on hold ran around the country called every person I knew in the industry, if see if they can solve this issue. And we found a very small company in California called AFM, a more American formulated in manufacturing and AFM made codings.

[00:05:41] Andrew Pace: All types of paints and coatings specifically for people with what was called multiple chemical sensitivity. And we found some products they had, we finished the job, but this was literally the life altering moment for me because I thought if this company exists that makes these non [00:06:00] toxic common sense products, why doesn't the industry use these? I learned less than the hard way that the industry didn't care and to the most point still doesn't care.

[00:06:11] Eric Goranson: It comes down, especially on those big projects like that. It comes down to dollars and cents.

[00:06:15] Andrew Pace: Yes.

[00:06:16] Eric Goranson: If that, and I've done. High rise condominium projects. There are 43 floors before I was working on that for two years.

[00:06:23] Eric Goranson: And so I've been in that same boat where if it costs them 4 more on the entire project, that's 4,

[00:06:31] Andrew Pace: they don't have to spend exactly right. And it's commercial construction too. So in, in residential construction, when you're working with a homeowner, It's their pocketbook and they can decide we're going to spend a little bit here, a little bit more here, a little bit less there.

[00:06:46] Andrew Pace: They can modify their spending a little bit differently in commercial work, because you're dealing with a board of directors. You're dealing with a major financing in a 50 million project. [00:07:00] You're right. 4 more is that's no bueno. They're not going to do it.

[00:07:04] Eric Goranson: And then you've got also, you've got the architect that's on board there.

[00:07:08] Eric Goranson: And the architect might not want to spec that product because they're not familiar with it, and they don't want to have to own that. There's a failure. There's a huge liability there. So you almost it's an interesting project that's so different than residential construction because you almost have to talk to the architect like they're the homeowner and then the building owners, the bank.

[00:07:33] Eric Goranson: And then you gotta have the contractor that's got to at least approve that. So it's an interesting mix. I've been in more than plenty of those meetings when I've been sitting there having that debate that you were probably having with that kind of stuff and everybody's pointing fingers. It's an interesting. It's an interesting way to go.

[00:07:50] Caroline Blazovsky: Andrew, you and I have never really talked about the liability standpoint, right? We always talk about like product selection. And when we're talking about, making it better for somebody, but now that we're having [00:08:00] this, one on one conversation, I'm thinking just in general in life, right?

[00:08:04] Caroline Blazovsky: Whether it's a medical thing or it's a. It's a home thing, construction. This liability component really is a big thing. Cause I noticed nobody wants to take liability. Like I just had this conversation, we're doing a molder mediation project and they're like, okay, you have to write protocol for this because the molder mediation company doesn't want to take responsibility.

[00:08:23] Caroline Blazovsky: So it's being pushed back to the consultant. So it's just, that is a big component. I think people, unless they, Know it. Feel it. See it. Feel confident that the company behind these big companies are, going to take responsibility for the product. People get afraid to put it in and I, you and I've never really talked about it from a liability standpoint, but I do think there is a big part of that there, money is there, but also just not wanting to have to come back and repeat something.

[00:08:48] Caroline Blazovsky: They get, people get afraid to try. I think the

[00:08:51] Andrew Pace: liability issue all across the board. Is a huge component of this and is the reason why most of these [00:09:00] technologies really don't get promoted better, think of the liability from the standpoint of an interior designer who specifies carpeting for a project. Looking at it from the flip side, if somebody down the road should get sick and it gets tied into the carpet because of the off gas in the carpet, they're part of that liability stream, right? However, the way we look at things right now is what if it fails, who's responsible if it fails?

[00:09:30] Andrew Pace: They

[00:09:30] Caroline Blazovsky: don't care if it makes you sick,

[00:09:33] Andrew Pace: right? Because it's very hard from a

[00:09:35] Caroline Blazovsky: medical standpoint though, to tie things together. I've seen this with clients. I've had clients who had exposures, went to court, there was a death involved. And. My clients were bankrupt trying to prove that their wife, no matter how much evidence we put forth, that this person died from mold exposure in combination with VOC exposure in combination with pesticide exposure, right?

[00:09:56] Caroline Blazovsky: I see them spend their whole life savings to fight, even though [00:10:00] we know that this played a part in the death. It's next to impossible to prove. So that's why they don't worry about it. But they do worry about it failing because it seems to be an easier case to prove. Does that make sense?

[00:10:10] Andrew Pace: Oh, it makes tons of sense because anything that has to do with medical liability, you're talking about years of court cases.

[00:10:16] Andrew Pace: And if you're going to find the correct medical professionals who will actually be a expert witness, exactly. So, I look at when John's Manville came out with formaldehyde free fiberglass insulation, what was that 10 years ago, within the first month of them bringing this out, they had a buy full page ad in the trade publication saying, we didn't do this for any health reasons.

[00:10:39] Andrew Pace: We did this because it's a better resin, it's more affordable, it's more sustainable, but don't worry. Formaldehyde is fine.

[00:10:48] Eric Goranson: Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy how that stuff gets laid out in the media and how they want to have that stuff in their PR campaign sometimes, [00:11:00]

[00:11:00] Andrew Pace: but it comes down to yes, liability for who's responsible if what was chosen doesn't work, but we look at it more so as liability of specifying materials or using materials that are known to be dangerous.

[00:11:13] Andrew Pace: Why do we continue to use these things, but that's, this is the industry we're in.

[00:11:19] Eric Goranson: So Andrew, what do you see in now, as far as some of the most toxic stuff going into residential construction right now inside the house, is there something right now that it's really making your red warning lights go off right now.

[00:11:30] Eric Goranson: Is there stuff that you go, wow, this is crazy.

[00:11:34] Andrew Pace: It still amazes me that people use carpeting in their house. Carpeting, first and foremost, is usually the most evil material you can surround yourself with. Now, I'll tell all my clients, 90 percent of the chemical off gassing inside of a home will come from the things and touch after you're living in the space.

[00:11:54] Andrew Pace: Flooring is number one because it's a large area you're dealing with. Yep. [00:12:00] And it's usually a thicker material. So thicker materials will off gas longer, and then you have your walls, your wall finishes, paints and coatings. Cabinetry. Cabinetry is a huge one that is, again, not, people don't think about too much, but every time you open up a cabinet to grab a plate, you get that big rush of formaldehyde right in the face, and then your own personal furnishings, your furniture, your window treatments, things like that.

[00:12:27] Andrew Pace: That last 10 percent is behind the wall. It's under the floor. It's things that you only have one shot at. So when you're building the home and you're really concerned about chemical sensitivity and chemical off gassing, you've got to make the right choices. But at the end of the day, that's only responsible for 10 percent of the overall load that you're going to face inside of the home.

[00:12:48] Andrew Pace: So we really focus on that 90%.

[00:12:51] Caroline Blazovsky: And just so people know too, like paint, for example, when you paint and we can talk about this, Eric and I've mentioned that, talked about this briefly, there's no such thing as a low VOC [00:13:00] paint. It doesn't exist. They can market it as a low VOC, but that's all marketing.

[00:13:05] Caroline Blazovsky: So you're always going to get volatile organic compounds that come off painting. And when you paint these things stay around for 18 months. So if you're one of those people that like likes to change your color in your house, like you change your shoes, you're in for a big chemical load just because you keep painting all the time.

[00:13:22] Caroline Blazovsky: So it's important for people to realize even though you're not smelling something anymore and necessarily that big impact that you smell in the first week is maybe gone and you don't have that anymore. That doesn't mean the chemicals aren't still there affecting you. So they stay around for a long time.

[00:13:36] Andrew Pace: Exactly right. And this is probably going to blow the minds of some people listening today. The only reason why VOCs are regulated by the EPA is because of outdoor air pollution. There is no regulation on the books for VOCs based on human health concerns. So in the mid nineties with the VOC regulations, they started [00:14:00] reducing the amount of VOCs being manufactured by the paint companies, like the cafe standards for automobiles.

[00:14:05] Andrew Pace: Yep. Overall a paint company has to reduce their manufactured VOCs by X amount. Which still allows them to make the really high VOC stuff because it averages out to be at that level it needs to be at. Inside of a home, a VOC, which is a volatile organic compound, any carbon based molecule that's readily vaporized at room temperature that could react with nitrogen and UV to create low level smog.

[00:14:33] Andrew Pace: Inside of a home, there isn't enough UV. There's not enough nitrogen to create smog. So the VOCs are irrelevant. Now, the toxicity of those VOCs, that's the key. And the industry uses the VOC number as a metric to determine whether something is safe or not. It's completely false, completely irrelevant.

[00:14:56] Andrew Pace: With it, with the EPA, they have 37 or [00:15:00] more now. What are called unregulated VOCs. That they have been given exemption by the EPA for manufacturers to use in their materials, because even though they're probably toxic, which is irrelevant to them, they don't actually create low level smog so they can use them.

[00:15:18] Andrew Pace: Ammonia, acetone, and butyl acetate are the three most widely used solvents in zero VOC paint formulations.

[00:15:27] Caroline Blazovsky: Wow. Let's see.

[00:15:30] Andrew Pace: Yeah, so if I open up a can of acetone in my office building within 15 minutes, everybody in this office building will have detectable levels of acetone in their liver, but yet that's deemed as zero VOC by the EPA and can be used in paint and not need to be disclosed.

[00:15:50] Andrew Pace: So I should be telling my doctor,

[00:15:52] Eric Goranson: No, it's not the whiskey, it's the acetone.

[00:15:55] Andrew Pace: Yes, that's ethanol. [00:16:00] Laughter

[00:16:04] Eric Goranson: We need a lab to do this. I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to start. Doing less painting and more drinking. See with that house,

[00:16:12] Caroline Blazovsky: Eric just painted his whole house, that's his problem.

[00:16:16] Andrew Pace: Or formulate a new paint made from whiskey.

[00:16:20] Andrew Pace: Oh! There we go.

[00:16:22] Eric Goranson: But the problem is that I'd be out there as I'm spraying it going like this. With my mouth open, I don't need no mask.

[00:16:29] Caroline Blazovsky: Okay. So just to bring some light, cause we're talking about real serious topic, but we always have to talk about fun on the show. So we're going to talk about, cause we're talking about whiskey right now, Andrew, besides being this incredible environmental consultant that wants to save the world has a passion because we all have passions.

[00:16:45] Caroline Blazovsky: There's Eric with his passion back there. Chug along. So Andrew has a passion, so I'll let him tell you what it is. And this is a passion of Eric's. It's not necessarily a passion of mine, but I think they're going to teach me a little bit today. So it's good. [00:17:00] So tell us.

[00:17:01] Andrew Pace: So I, when I started my career in healthy home consulting and material supply, I became a student.

[00:17:08] Andrew Pace: That I've never been before. I wanted to research and learn everything I could possibly learn about chemistry, about building materials, how things go together after doing this now for 30 years, I'm still learning every single day, but I am a I am just a sponge for information. Nice. Back in 1995, 96 I was elected president of one of the largest commercial architectural associations in Wisconsin, and I was the youngest president ever in the country for this organization.

[00:17:40] Andrew Pace: And I remember at the installation dinner, somebody asked if they would, if they could buy me a drink and I said, Oh, sure. I'd love to have something. And I looked quickly at the back of the bar to see if I recognize anything because I wasn't going to order a Bud Light or something. I wanted to be a little more hydro.

[00:17:59] Andrew Pace: So [00:18:00] I looked at the back of the bar and I said, yeah, I'll take a Dewars and water. A Dewars is a type of blended Scotch and I thought I'm going to look cool. I'm going to be drinking a Dewars in water. I have no idea what it tastes like, but it doesn't matter. I love it. I fell in love with it. And it was just, it was all, I was to say downhill, but it was actually uphill from there because I learned so much a very good friend of mine Frank he was a Scotch snob.

[00:18:30] Andrew Pace: He was a Scotch lover. And he took me under his wing. He said, I'll teach you all about whiskey. Now all these years later, we, he and I, and our wives have been to Scotland several times. We actually went through all the courses and the training to become Scotch whiskey sommeliers. Nice.

[00:18:46] Andrew Pace: Wait, let's say that word again.

[00:18:48] Caroline Blazovsky: Hold on, say that word. Scotch.

[00:18:50] Andrew Pace: A Scotch whiskey sommelier. Wow.

[00:18:52] Caroline Blazovsky: See, he's not just an environmental consultant. We get to the nitty gritty in this show. We just don't let you come on and talk about your career. That's [00:19:00] boring. We need to know exactly who you are and check this out.

[00:19:03] Andrew Pace: It's my desire to learn more. It's my desire to Dig deep into things. And I find that my passion and my love for helping my clients live in a healthy home I have the exact same passion for sharing things that I've learned with others. And I've learned so much about whiskey over the last 20 years that now I actually do private events.

[00:19:25] Andrew Pace: I I conduct yeah tasting events.

[00:19:28] Caroline Blazovsky: So

[00:19:29] Andrew Pace: yeah, that is my passion

[00:19:30] Caroline Blazovsky: as an amateur. Cause Eric knows stuff because I know nothing. Okay, what is the most important thing I need to know as an amateur? And then you can tell Eric what he needs to know as a professional. Professional drinker.

[00:19:44] Andrew Pace: Okay, so here's what you need to know.

[00:19:47] Andrew Pace: Any way you like to drink whiskey is your way. And that's the right way. Don't let anybody ever tell you that you have to drink it neat. You have to drink it over an ice cube. You got to drink it with water. You drink it the way [00:20:00] you like to drink it. And I remember when I was getting my certificate, the woman who was conducting the last course she was from Poland.

[00:20:10] Andrew Pace: And she drank her whiskey with lemonade. Oh my

[00:20:15] Caroline Blazovsky: God. I love

[00:20:16] Andrew Pace: high end Scotch whiskey mixed with lemonade. So who am I to judge to say that's not right. Now, when I do conduct tasting events, I have everybody taste a whiskey for the first time neat because you need to know what the spirit tastes like on its own, but then we call the altered states of whiskey.

[00:20:39] Andrew Pace: You can add in a drop of water, you add in one drop of water, you look at the glass and you can actually see the alcohol swirling. That's an exothermic reaction at the alcohol is actually heating up because of the water. And what will happen is the ethanol will start to leave the glass and you'll get hit with these base notes of what the whiskey actually [00:21:00] is.

[00:21:00] Andrew Pace: Oh, you mean the

[00:21:00] Caroline Blazovsky: VOCs are leaving the glass?

[00:21:03] Andrew Pace: Exactly.

[00:21:03] Caroline Blazovsky: They are,

[00:21:04] Andrew Pace: but no smog.

[00:21:06] Caroline Blazovsky: Correct.

[00:21:08] Andrew Pace: So, but then you'll find your sweet spot. You'll find it where it actually is good for you on your palate. Yep. Now, at any given moment, There are over 3, 000 different bottles of scotch whisky alone for sale in the world.

[00:21:24] Andrew Pace: 3, 000 different expressions. And that's only from 115 distilleries? Here in the United States, we've got close to 1, 500 whisky distilleries. Oh yeah. So this number is going up rapidly.

[00:21:43] Eric Goranson: Yeah. I've I'm lucky my, my my freezer in my fridge is the LG one that comes out and gives the little clear golf ball sized ice cubes, which is cool.

[00:21:55] Andrew Pace: It's perfect. That is cool.

[00:21:57] Eric Goranson: That's that ice maker kicks it out right underneath it. So it's very [00:22:00] easy to go in there and grab one of those whiskey balls and throw it in the, throw it in the glass. And then, it gives that slow melt. And I'm not watering stuff down too much.

[00:22:10] Andrew Pace: Exactly.

[00:22:11] Andrew Pace: And that's the thing, I may be a Scotch whiskey, Somalia, I'm also a bourbon executive. So I've done all the training for bourbon as well. And I appreciate them both. And I find that bourbon, because that is that's basically, it's corn based. And so corn out ethanol is actually just a little bit hotter on the palate than the alcohol you get from barley, which is Scotch whiskey.

[00:22:32] Andrew Pace: And so this is why most people will drink bourbon. over a glass of ice because that ice cube as it melts will actually provide that same exothermic reaction. The colder the spirit is, the more shut down the alcohol is. But though, there are whiskey purists that say you got to drink a neat, because if you don't experience that Kentucky hug, you're not really getting a good drink of whiskey.

[00:22:59] Eric Goranson: Very [00:23:00] true. Very true. But yeah, it's a, man, there are so many great whiskeys out there, I'm much more of a bourbon guy. But I have no problem with a neat glass of Scotch either.

[00:23:09] Andrew Pace: So, which is actually interesting because I would say of those who I've known over the years, people who are bourbon drinkers.

[00:23:17] Andrew Pace: And started with bourbon typically don't gravitate to Scotch and that's because they already found what I call that literal sweet spot. Bourbon is a little sweeter because corn alcohol is sweeter. Yep. People who are Scotch whiskey drinkers have a tendency to go, whatever you're pouring.

[00:23:32] Andrew Pace: I'll take but see, I

[00:23:33] Eric Goranson: started with Scotch. That's why.

[00:23:35] Andrew Pace: Oh, there you go. That's why you go. So

[00:23:38] Eric Goranson: I, love Scotch. And then. Got into some really good some really good bourbons and enjoyed it that way. So that's how I slid into that. So they're a hundred percent right. Cause that's the way I went with it.

[00:23:50] Caroline Blazovsky: TV learned stuff all the time on the show. It's amazing.

[00:23:53] Eric Goranson: And there's some good, inexpensive, you don't have to go crazy with good whiskey out there. There's some great, inexpensive whiskeys out there. You don't have to go spend [00:24:00] a ton of money for stuff out there. Whether it's Scotch or bourbon or whatever you're

[00:24:03] Andrew Pace: doing.

[00:24:04] Andrew Pace: Oh, agreed. But agreed. If, in the bourbon world, if you're spending more than 50 a bottle, you're overspending. Yeah. In Scotch whiskey, it's a little bit different, but you're looking at I've probably, I won't say how much I've spent for bottles of whiskey, but for Scotch, I got a bottle, I got a bottle right here.

[00:24:22] Andrew Pace: Ooh. The Obon Little Bay. Yep. I think I paid 28 for. Yeah. And it is comparable to some hundred dollar plus whiskies I've had. It's just a fantastic. Value.

[00:24:36] Caroline Blazovsky: What is that called? I know nothing, but what is it called? Oban. Oban.

[00:24:40] Andrew Pace: Oban Little Bay. Yeah. O B A N. They're a great value. Oh, yeah. It's the type of whiskey that's called a NAS or a non age statement.

[00:24:48] Andrew Pace: So in scotch whiskey, it's got to be minimum three years old to be legally called scotch. But they don't have to put The age statement on the label, if they don't want to, if they do put an age statement, [00:25:00] like a 12 year old Glenn limit, that means that the youngest spirit in the bottle is 12 years old.

[00:25:05] Andrew Pace: The oldest can be, a hundred years old. So it's a big push now in the Scotch whisky industry to use what are called no age statements because it allows people. To taste whiskeys all over the board without getting influenced by an age statement, thinking it's going to be better because it's older.

[00:25:23] Eric Goranson: That makes sense. Yeah, because if I'm looking at the, if I'm looking on the shelf and I'm like, oh, there's a 12, there's a 15, there's an 18. What? Let's go with the 18 because it's not that much more,

[00:25:33] Eric Goranson: And without taking into account the actual taste.

[00:25:37] Andrew Pace: Exactly. I did a tasting of McAllen several years ago, and we had anything up to from a new make all the way up to a 25 year old.

[00:25:45] Andrew Pace: And I think the 18 year old was our favorite. The 21 just didn't, for me, it didn't taste right. So it doesn't necessarily mean the older, the better. It just means more expensive.

[00:25:56] Eric Goranson: They've had to maintain that for so much longer, and you've just got so much more [00:26:00] labor and time in it.

[00:26:01] Andrew Pace: Exactly right.

[00:26:02] Caroline Blazovsky: I'd like to know your top five favorite products right now that can go into a home so that you think when someone's doing a remodeling project they're going to put the healthiest products in. Do you have five favorites? And it doesn't have to be five boy calling you on the spot, but it could be a flooring.

[00:26:15] Caroline Blazovsky: It could be wall material, maybe a cock, maybe paint. So shot. And then, okay. Five favorite.

[00:26:23] Andrew Pace: I can do that. Do I get to drink while I'm giving my five? Yeah.

[00:26:27] Caroline Blazovsky: Yeah. And I want to see, I want to see what Eric's got over there, Eric, for some reason, I can't see you full bore. I need to be able to see you.

[00:26:34] Eric Goranson: Oh, there we go. I will I'm actually, I've got, I want to see reaction. You're I have it in my coffee right now is what I've got. So, yes.

[00:26:41] Caroline Blazovsky: And what do you have in

[00:26:43] Eric Goranson: your coffee? I've got the I've got the buffalo trace their creamer, basically it's the that stuff's so good.

[00:26:52] Andrew Pace: Oh, it's well, it affectionately called the cream in your coffee because I'm the it's like Irish cream, but made with bourbon.

[00:26:58] Andrew Pace: Yes. I'd like [00:27:00] that. That's sweet. Is that sweet?

[00:27:01] Caroline Blazovsky: Oh, then I'm your

[00:27:03] Andrew Pace: girl. It's good.

[00:27:04] Eric Goranson: Yeah, it's good.

[00:27:05] Andrew Pace: And that over ice cream is good for a little dessert. Yeah.

[00:27:10] Eric Goranson: Oh, Eric. I'm cheating that way. I'm cheating that way because I got a home like six hours ago from a going away party last night. So

[00:27:17] Caroline Blazovsky: Eric's been partying for 24 hours straight.

[00:27:23] Eric Goranson: So I had to hit the brakes on something. So Eric was in

[00:27:25] Caroline Blazovsky: a rock, Andrew, Eric was in rock bands in Seattle. So he played bass. Really? Yep. Oh, fantastic. So he's a champion partier. Oh yeah. Yeah. He comes from good stock.

[00:27:40] Andrew Pace: Professional. See, I sang in a heavy metal band in high school, yeah, but we, we were just doing covers of Iron Maiden and, Black Sabbath.

[00:27:51] Andrew Pace: Maybe that's where the whiskey love started. There we go. There we go. Jack Daniels. Yeah,

[00:27:56] Eric Goranson: exactly.[00:28:00]

[00:28:02] Andrew Pace: So what'd you drink in

[00:28:03] Eric Goranson: there? That looks good.

[00:28:05] Andrew Pace: So this is the Obon Little Bay. This is actually a it's a Glencairn glass, but it's black. It's completely opaque so that I do a lot of blind tastings. People want to get like descriptions of whiskeys. And if you pour them out blind and taste them without being able to see the spirit, you won't be affected by what the color should be imparting the flavor.

[00:28:25] Andrew Pace: Gotcha. And so this is what I use. I like

[00:28:28] Caroline Blazovsky: that. That's cool. Isn't it?

[00:28:30] Andrew Pace: Yeah.

[00:28:30] Andrew Pace: Looks like it's rockstar. All

[00:28:33] Caroline Blazovsky: for the rockstar. We can toast David Lee Roth cause he retired. So there we go. He did. That's right. Poor David. I'm going to miss him.

[00:28:40] Andrew Pace: Good for him. He honestly, he, I loved him. It was time.

[00:28:46] Caroline Blazovsky: It was time.

[00:28:46] Andrew Pace: He was done. He was done. So, all right, top, top five materials. Let's see. I'm going to start at number one just because it's easier for me. So I mentioned before that my, the second biggest issue in the home is [00:29:00] paint or any painted surface. We mentioned that zero VOC does not actually mean non toxic.

[00:29:06] Andrew Pace: It just means it's better for the environment. When I got started in this business in 1992, the very first manufacturer I found was a company called AFM Safecoat out of California. They still exist today as being the only manufacturer of paints and coatings that do not off gas. They'll block the off gassing of what's underneath.

[00:29:26] Andrew Pace: I can't tell you how often we get phone calls on a daily basis from people saying I used XYZ's paint six years ago or six months ago and it's still off gas and I can't live in my house. So I'll put two coats of safe coat on and they can move in, the next day. Wow. And so AFM safe coat out of San Diego, they still exist today I think is one of the best values in paint.

[00:29:52] Andrew Pace: The downside is you can't just run down to the hardware store, the local paint store to get it. Most of the paint that's available is online. There [00:30:00] are some stores across the country that carry it, but most of it's being sold online. So it's difficult to get. And compared to going down to Walmart or Sherwin Williams and getting your paint, but it's definitely worth

[00:30:11] Caroline Blazovsky: and color choices. I think you're more limited to they have less color choice.

[00:30:15] Andrew Pace: It used to be. It used to be, but they have a fan deck now of about 1400 colors and they'll match any other paint brand. Yeah, nice. Alright. Number two product, and I'm gonna keep it in the coatings world, is a company called Callel, C-A-L-I-W-E-L.

[00:30:37] Andrew Pace: Callel is a coating that was developed probably 15 plus years ago. It is a latex coating, which means water-based acrylic, but it uses a very high amount of calcium hydroxide or lime. Yep. In the mix. What happens is lime raises the pH to a level of about 13. [00:31:00] At that high of a pH mold cannot sustain.

[00:31:03] Andrew Pace: He's

[00:31:03] Eric Goranson: going to say nothing's grown in that.

[00:31:05] Andrew Pace: Think of farmers years ago, they used to lime wash their barns once a year to get rid of the mold. Callowell invented a way to actually partially encapsulate that lime with acrylic so that the top end still stays open and active, but it doesn't.

[00:31:22] Andrew Pace: Necessarily. Neutralize right away. Wow. It, they actually have EPA registrations on their product to be a a mildew side that's effective for a minimum of six years. So we use this product to coat all the inside cavities of the exterior wall. So. After you're done sheathing, before insulation, or before air sealing, we'll spray all the inside of the OSB, or what are you using, and your studs, with Caliwell, because any of the mold spores that may have been on the wood prior to [00:32:00] insulation Aren't going to be fed by the moisture in the air because and if it is, it's going to die off because it's very inexpensive insurance to make sure that you're not going to have mold on those exterior walls.

[00:32:13] Eric Goranson: Nice. Do you run into any issues with that 13 pH and like metal brackets and things like that? Are there any issues with with corrosion and things like that happening, or is it all pretty good?

[00:32:24] Andrew Pace: It's all good. We actually haven't seen that because. Again, it's going to be on the inside as opposed to, going on to the the outside where you might have some of those Simpson plates there's a it doesn't necessarily penetrate into the wood.

[00:32:39] Andrew Pace: And so even though it's it has a, it's like a barrier versus that

[00:32:43] Caroline Blazovsky: imp impregnating it. Yeah.

[00:32:44] Andrew Pace: The acrylic acts as a barrier on the surface it goes onto, but the mold stays on the outside of it. Gotcha. Or the mold the the lime. The lime does. Yeah. Yeah. And so. If you think of during construction, the average home has about 400 to 600 gallons of [00:33:00] moisture in the air, just from the building process.

[00:33:03] Andrew Pace: And that's trying to get out and it's going to go through a switch plate covers and outlets and cracks and crevices and try to get out somehow. If it gets stuck in that cavity wall, it could under the right circumstances turn into a mold situation.

[00:33:19] Eric Goranson: Andrew, we've had a, I'm out in Portland, Oregon.

[00:33:21] Eric Goranson: So we have. rains that hit from about October all the way into about June, where we could have literally 30 to 40 days straight of measurable precipitation. And you've got people building. So the problem that we end up having is that they end up sitting out there. And I can drive past, especially if it's a project that a project's been delayed, for instance or they're doing multiple times or waiting for the roofer to show up or whatever, sometimes a house will sit there for two or three weeks as they're framing it, waiting for maybe more trusses to show up and the OSB is on the outside is It looks like it's black,

[00:33:58] Andrew Pace: right?

[00:33:59] Eric Goranson: [00:34:00] And they're throwing house trap around it and off they go.

[00:34:03] Andrew Pace: And I'm like, Oh boy. That actually brings up product number three, a product that we don't sell, but I recommend all the time. It's the the Huber zip system for exterior sheathing. The, what you just described, Eric, is the problem on job sites all across the country, especially now because of labor shortages.

[00:34:23] Andrew Pace: Sure. Projects sit for days, weeks, months, even. With the sheathing and the house wrap up. What happens is wind driven rain that the house wrap starts to flap, the staples tear, and you get wind driven rain right through that seam. The Huber Zip system eliminates that as a problem. Nice. And we find that exact, especially in a healthy home situation, the less moisture into the home during construction, the better off you're going to be in the long run for a variety of reasons.

[00:34:54] Andrew Pace: And, but it, it's true.

[00:34:56] Caroline Blazovsky: Explain to the audience because a lot of people don't, we have a lot of people listen to [00:35:00] us that have no building experience whatsoever. So just explain to them what that system is and how it attaches. To your house and how it's different than if you were just to build a normal, everyday construction, normal construction home.

[00:35:14] Eric Goranson: I think a lot of people have seen the Tyvek house wrap over the last 20 years out there that they'll drive by and they'll say, Hey, what's that white stuff that's wrapped around the building? That's what I'd call the norm for people out there, but the traditional, yeah, but there's a lot of systems now out there,

[00:35:31] Andrew Pace: right?

[00:35:31] Andrew Pace: There are a number of manufacturers now making these types of Tyvek type wraps. And the idea of it is it allows vapor transmission, but doesn't allow rain to get in through it. Now, again, the problem we have is at those seams. When those seams flap in the wind and you get wind driven rain through it or snow, in our case up here in Wisconsin, you get snow blowing through those seams.

[00:35:59] Andrew Pace: Yep. [00:36:00] The, it, when you're framing a home, your exterior frame, whatever, whether it's two by four, two by six, if you're just doing a traditional wood stud, on the outside, you're using a sheathing material. Typically, that's going to be a exterior grade plywood or an OSB. And then you cover it with one of these building ramps.

[00:36:19] Andrew Pace: The Huber Zip system is the exterior OSB, but it's factory treated with water repellents so that you can't get wind driven rain going through the board. And then every seam for these 4x8 sheets is going to be either taped or flashed with a liquid flashing material so it's completely sealed. And Huber has their own factory training to teach you how to install the system.

[00:36:48] Andrew Pace: So it's not available all throughout the country. There are pockets of the country where it's just not either. It's not well supported yet. Lumber dealers aren't supplying materials. They're not doing good training. I've had a couple of projects on, [00:37:00] in the, on the East coast, in these areas where they're just not comfortable using it yet because they don't have good factory.

[00:37:06] Andrew Pace: Representation. In those situations, I'll actually switch people over to a product made by a company called SIGA, S I G A. They're a Swiss manufacturer of high performance tapes and wraps, and they make a building wrap that you can use over traditional OSB, but it's a peel and stick membrane. So you get that positive lock at the scene.

[00:37:28] Andrew Pace: There's no worry about that. Flapping the breeze.

[00:37:30] Eric Goranson: Caroline and I were talking here geez, probably two months ago, but some of the problems when you've got, positive pressure inside the house. And then you're blowing the house wrap off of it at the bottom and actually letting snow and moisture back in because you've ballooned out the house wrap away from the structure.

[00:37:49] Eric Goranson: And now you've let a place for it to come back in.

[00:37:52] Caroline Blazovsky: And that's using like an ERV, right? So people hear about, bringing positive air and bringing fresh air. And a lot of these companies, we've all been hitting home on [00:38:00] using ERVs, but now we're learning that an ERV can actually have a downside, right?

[00:38:04] Caroline Blazovsky: The downside is it can actually create too much pressure that building envelope that, Andrew and Eric are talking about can actually expand like a balloon right off of your plywood. And now you've got this gapping that allows all kinds of moisture infiltration. So that's it's crazy, right?

[00:38:18] Caroline Blazovsky: It's like a giant rabbit hole we're in Andrew.

[00:38:23] Andrew Pace: This is, it's interesting because the industry has really gone towards this what I would call high performance construction. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And which is green energy efficiency and so forth, material efficiencies and so forth, but it forgets about the human aspect. The industry wants metrics. They want performance metrics. Now, common sense tells you that a home built a hundred years ago that has gaps and holes everywhere is going to be the least energy efficient building you live in, but it's probably gonna be the [00:39:00] healthiest. Because you are getting fresh air.

[00:39:02] Andrew Pace: You're not getting, you're not getting moisture locked in a cavity wall because that cavity wall probably was brick and stucco and there's no insulation. So, there's gotta be a happy medium. And so, I actually do find that in the building industry, there is a bumping of heads between the high performance home builders and the healthy home builders, because you'd think the two would have the same goal, but they're really different.

[00:39:29] Eric Goranson: Yeah, absolutely. You're seeing, even in the construction side of things, you're seeing, where you're using engineered studs now where you're trying to stop the thermal breaks. So you're going to a 24 inch, on center construction. And you're seeing a lot of different stuff going on, but then you've got other people going now you're just putting in a glued together product.

[00:39:53] Eric Goranson: That's not just a natural piece of wood in there. So there's this back and forth with some of this stuff going on. I don't want to put that. [00:40:00] Glued together stuff on every single two by four, for instance.

[00:40:04] Andrew Pace: Exactly. Exactly. Now, what I will say is, sometimes you have to take a step forward to take two or step backwards to take two steps forwards, right?

[00:40:12] Andrew Pace: Sometimes you have to use something that may have some synthetic materials in it, but at the end of the day, it's going to be a better project for it. Longer lasting, healthier for the occupant so forth. Probably my number four product that I would have people look at is an older technology.

[00:40:30] Andrew Pace: That's becoming more popular again. It's insulated concrete form, construction, ICF construction.

[00:40:36] Eric Goranson: No, my mom's outside of that. And my mom and dad's outside of

[00:40:38] Andrew Pace: that.

[00:40:39] Eric Goranson: I know. Now,

[00:40:41] Andrew Pace: 15 years ago, ICF construction was getting very popular, but the cost of wood was so cheap. That the building associations just said, you know what?

[00:40:51] Andrew Pace: We're not going to bother with that. That's going to make us look too expensive. Or, the home builders didn't want to promote it, but now with wood still at, A very [00:41:00] high price for framing lumber. It's actually very cost effective to build insulated concrete form. And what that is, if you're not familiar with it, it's essentially building a house out of Lego blocks that are hollow.

[00:41:13] Andrew Pace: These are styrofoam type or expanded polystyrene foam blocks that are hollow in the middle. And after you build the wall and all the walls around the house, you fill it full of concrete inside of those blocks, you're going to have a furring strip or a nailer every 16 inches on center, the way the industry is used to.

[00:41:33] Andrew Pace: So on the outside of the house, you're going to install your side and on the inside, you're going to put up your drywall. There's no Tyvek or building wrap needed. There's no insulation needed. It completely eliminates. That thermal bridging, because now you don't have any way for that, in the middle of winter for the heat on the inside of the home to transfer to the outside or somewhere in the middle and cause condensation. Back in the day it was about 10 percent more expensive. Right now it's about the same [00:42:00] price.

[00:42:00] Eric Goranson: Yeah. It's interesting. It is the quietest house I've ever been in right across the street from my mom's house is an elementary school. And there are buses that are diesel in school bells. And one, it's probably the most energy efficient house that I've actually seen to because her heating and cooling costs are near zero.

[00:42:20] Eric Goranson: She could said that house just Is so efficient and it's so quiet. If you were building, you could build an ICF house next to a freeway and you wouldn't have that sound go through, especially if you put in, better windows and things like that, that were designed for noisy areas.

[00:42:38] Eric Goranson: You'd never know it.

[00:42:41] Andrew Pace: Exactly. There was a house built a few miles away from my house. Next to a set of railroad tracks. And I was touring that house with a train going by. I didn't even know it. Yep. Now I saw a

[00:42:52] Eric Goranson: DIY project where they, somebody decided to do it and build themselves and I saw one issue [00:43:00] that they had with it and they were out there pouring concrete mud was there and it was about a 30 mile an hour wind going.

[00:43:08] Eric Goranson: And they had a bode wall because you had, it was like a sale. And you could see afterwards that they had not managed that well, and they had a, they were out a couple inches in the middle of this wall because it had bowed in with the prevailing winds going in there. And I was like, that's a problem.

[00:43:28] Andrew Pace: And that's actually one of the reasons why the ICF.

[00:43:31] Andrew Pace: Didn't take off years ago is because think of the knowledge base you need to build a concrete wall. You have to have somebody who knows framing, who knows the dynamics of concrete, and that those two are two different trades. No question. And so It takes somebody who's an engineer who has brought up their own crew as apprentices and taught them how to do it the correct way.

[00:43:57] Andrew Pace: And it's, it takes a while to teach [00:44:00] that. Yeah,

[00:44:00] Eric Goranson: no

[00:44:00] Andrew Pace: question.

[00:44:01] Eric Goranson: No question. And now that there's high performance concretes out there, there's even more stuff that you can do with some of these things. With concrete these days. So it it keeps getting a little more complex and a little more common complex with the custom mixes you can do and some of that stuff too.

[00:44:16] Eric Goranson: You can add additives to concrete now to make it so moisture can't go through it.

[00:44:22] Andrew Pace: And then you can also pour a concrete that's completely permeable pavement. Yup. Use it for driveways. So just water just goes right through it. You never have to worry about salt pop outs or a water damage whatsoever.

[00:44:35] Eric Goranson: Yeah, it just, it goes right through it like a big sponge. It's cool.

[00:44:38] Andrew Pace: Exactly. So I think that's four. I think number five for me, number five for me would probably be along the lines of flooring materials. I have sold wood floors. Matter of fact, back in the early nineties, the only flooring material that I knew of.

[00:44:59] Andrew Pace: That was [00:45:00] being manufactured worldwide. That was actually completely non toxic was a product called forbo

[00:45:06] Caroline Blazovsky: marmolium. That's

[00:45:08] Andrew Pace: right. Yep. Old fashioned linoleum. And. Here, this is sheet flooring material made from pine resin, wood flour pigments spread onto a jute backing, right? Linseed oil.

[00:45:21] Andrew Pace: Yep. And when people say that the word linoleum, most people actually believe it's vinyl. No question. But the word linoleum actually means linseed and jute. And this product is still being made today the way it was made 150 years ago.

[00:45:36] Eric Goranson: Yeah, I did a kitchen with that here probably five years ago for a client that I designed out and we used the the green apple color if I was gonna, oh yes.

[00:45:45] Eric Goranson: It turned out awesome in this kitchen. So it's like a giant Jolly Ranch. Yeah, it was, yeah. Jolly Ranch Green. And they loved it. It was a kind of a vintage. House where we wanted to go for that [00:46:00] forties fifties look with it and it turned out awesome, but easy stuff to put down. You got to know that you have to have somebody that knows what they're doing, but it's a

[00:46:08] Andrew Pace: wonderful product.

[00:46:09] Andrew Pace: And now as you experienced with it, they have some pretty wild colors, right? I have to tell my clients, be very careful in the color you choose because this floral probably lasts as long as the house itself. And that's what they love. I had a client that did in a kitchen, they did half bright yellow and half bright red, and they met right in the middle of the zigzag.

[00:46:30] Andrew Pace: And she said they wanted to wake up every morning and go to the kitchen and just be energized and they certainly were like

[00:46:36] Caroline Blazovsky: the university of Southern California, my Alma mater colors it's wake up every day and be like, fight on, it's Oh

[00:46:45] Andrew Pace: my

[00:46:45] Caroline Blazovsky: God.

[00:46:46] Andrew Pace: What I love about it is. It's naturally antibacterial, naturally antistatic.

[00:46:52] Andrew Pace: You're not adding any other microban or anything else on there that's causing a formaldehyde problem. It's just it's [00:47:00] naturally antibacterial because the linseed oil that oxidizes off it over time. So just a very safe material, very effective, very durable. And again it's been made today the same way it was 150 years ago.

[00:47:14] Andrew Pace: They didn't alter their manufacturing process just to jump on the green bandwagon. This is the way it's always been. They were already there, so they didn't have to. Yeah. Exactly. That's the beauty of that.

[00:47:25] Eric Goranson: Ah, that is great flooring. And what, is there stuff that you're seeing out there now that is starting to get on the healthier side with flooring?

[00:47:33] Eric Goranson: Cause you know how there's luxury vinyl planks and tiles and all that stuff out there that has been really cruising past what I called the old pergo. Laminate floor, gymnasium sounding home stuff that we had 20 years ago.

[00:47:47] Andrew Pace: So there's two products that came out in the last few years that I've actually loved now.

[00:47:51] Andrew Pace: And one is a, there's a company called Cali bamboo out of California and Cali bamboo came out with their. Their [00:48:00] version of a luxury vinyl plank. It was a, the Cali vinyl pro it was called used that limestone core. And because it doesn't contain MDF, there's no worry of any urea formaldehyde coming off, plus it doesn't warp the way some of that older stuff did.

[00:48:17] Andrew Pace: So that's been a huge. Huge product for us. I probably have that product installed now in about 200 health houses across the country. And these are homes that are being built or remodeled for people with extreme sensitivities. And if they can tolerate that product, we all can.

[00:48:33] Eric Goranson: So I've got a question on the stone core flooring for you that I've been trying to research and I haven't found the answers yet.

[00:48:40] Eric Goranson: I've seen some installers out there. Instead of cutting and snapping this stuff they're throwing it on their saw. Are we getting into a silica problem when you've got a stone core material and somebody who's using a saw with no dust collection on it out on a job site? I'm [00:49:00] curious to see if we're running into any unknown silica problems.

[00:49:04] Andrew Pace: That's a great question because. Just about anything that's cementitious will contain silica, and it's probably gonna come down to the actual composition. Most of this is what's called, it's called SPC, it's a stone plastic composition. They usually use limestone because it's easily powdered, but I don't know what the silica Level is in limestone versus just say, a typical cement.

[00:49:31] Andrew Pace: However, I do recommend for my clients that all pieces be cut outside, not in the house. So it's not lingering for any period of time that dust can linger for two years after project. Yep.

[00:49:42] Caroline Blazovsky: Andrew.

[00:49:43] Andrew Pace: So that's, that is a great question. When we, when I test

[00:49:45] Caroline Blazovsky: right for particulate, one of the things that I always test for silica.

[00:49:49] Caroline Blazovsky: And when I say that every house, it's odd if I don't find it has some sort of silica particulate in the air, some extensively higher that needs to be addressed. [00:50:00] And I do find a lot of it comes out of byproduct of when people have done construction, it ends up in the duct work and it's just never cleaned out.

[00:50:06] Caroline Blazovsky: We know that it's just dirty construction materials. But then also there are things, believe it or not, that produce it things like cartridge cartridges off of printers, which is interesting because you like, wouldn't think of it. And so what people do is, you have your home office, right?

[00:50:19] Caroline Blazovsky: And you've got your printer right next to you. Some people have multiple printers and they're breathing it in. So that's a really big problem with silica. It's constantly in samples. And we constantly have it. So

[00:50:30] Eric Goranson: yeah I've called two flooring manufacturers and none of them are Cali, but I've called two name brand flooring manufacturers and talked to their tech department and they go yeah, I don't know.

[00:50:40] Eric Goranson: We've never looked for it. I had this dead phone. Are you there? Hello. And you could hear them going, Oh, we better get with legal on this too. But it was just this dead silence. So then I'm like, huh. Interesting. Nobody knows.

[00:50:58] Andrew Pace: You've obviously asked a question [00:51:00] that they weren't prepared for.

[00:51:02] Andrew Pace: And, but these are things that we have to ask. And this is, as all of us here, we are if anything we're scientists as well. And we're trying to help. Our clients live in healthier homes, but we have to do this research for them. . Yeah. And that's what I get paid for.

[00:51:18] Andrew Pace: I do consulting on projects all over the world and I just yesterday I took a call from somebody in Israel. I had a call with somebody in Barcelona, and then a few in here in the States. Everybody has the same question. How do I live in a healthy home? How do I find a healthy apartment?

[00:51:34] Andrew Pace: Or, how do I do this without poisoning my kids? . Yeah.

[00:51:37] Caroline Blazovsky: And that's why we all call a

[00:51:38] Andrew Pace: manufacturer. And that's

[00:51:39] Caroline Blazovsky: why we all come together. This is the whole point of this show and Andrew has his own podcast as well, but just bringing the specialist and putting us in this big pot and sitting down and saying, okay, look, let's all brainstorm together to figure out how we can educate people.

[00:51:54] Caroline Blazovsky: And by doing this, we educate the companies, because the companies listen to our show and they say, Wow. This is important to people. [00:52:00] We care about this. So,

[00:52:01] Eric Goranson: It's like we brought up, that's the reason why I was calling, because I was thinking, okay, what if you had a contractor that was in there and he had a guy that was drilling a hole in a basement floor, somebody called him in on it and the OSHA guys show up and all of a sudden he's got a silica dust complaint.

[00:52:17] Eric Goranson: And maybe the flooring installers upstairs, he's actually creating a bigger problem than what's going on downstairs and all of a sudden all the air tests could be off because the flooring installers up there with the chop saw knocking out flooring

[00:52:29] Caroline Blazovsky: or just because they're all fair. I test all the time and I'm telling you, it's a major problem in houses across the U.

[00:52:34] Caroline Blazovsky: S. So it's just there. And where does it come from?

[00:52:39] Eric Goranson: So, yeah, that was my little stump, the expert questions that I had with the flooring manufacturers, because nobody has any idea on that stuff yet, which I think that'll be a upcoming question for many of them. As I keep asking those questions.

[00:52:52] Andrew Pace: It will. No, I love that. I love that. And I certainly will reach out to the folks that I know. And Cal had asked that same question and I, and it's up to us. [00:53:00] It's up to people like us to ask these questions because homeowners don't have the connections. They don't. They don't know the general lingo to get through a conversation.

[00:53:09] Andrew Pace: I had a customer several years ago who questioned. The Kanoff brand of formaldehyde, free fiberglass insulation, and wanted to know because they actually produced a declare label. It tells us what all the ingredients are in their product. And it says mineral oil is one of their ingredients.

[00:53:26] Andrew Pace: It's sand, glass, and mineral oil, the three ingredients in Kanoff insulation. I actually contacted Kanoff and said you do realize that there is a. Industrial mineral oil, which is very toxic to humans. And there's also a a safe organic, which one are you using? And they said, I don't know.

[00:53:45] Andrew Pace: Nobody's ever asked that question before.

[00:53:48] Eric Goranson: And if they don't know, I got, I have an idea what they're using.

[00:53:52] Andrew Pace: Fortunately they were using the safer version, but they didn't even know it. They couldn't use it as a marketing tool. So they went back and [00:54:00] they changed their declared labels to, to make sure it reflected the fact they're using non toxic mineral oil.

[00:54:05] Andrew Pace: Wow. That's crazy. That's crazy. So it pays to ask questions, again, for most homeowners, they just don't have the They don't have the knowledge base to start with. And so that's why they hire folks like me to make sure that they're, that I'm their advocate and I'm finding out for them.

[00:54:20] Eric Goranson: That

[00:54:21] Andrew Pace: is

[00:54:21] Eric Goranson: awesome. That

[00:54:22] Andrew Pace: is awesome. I know we're running

[00:54:23] Caroline Blazovsky: long, but I have one question for him too, Eric. So, and this is just like a personal question. So we're talking a lot about OSB. I'm a plywood person. I'm typically, when I build a home, I want, I request that there's plywood use not OSB. Argument for OSB argument against if you have the choice, Andrew, which one do you prefer and,

[00:54:44] Andrew Pace: Actually based upon testing that I have done, because I actually do a formaldehyde test called a frat test, a formaldehyde release attenuation test.

[00:54:53] Andrew Pace: I have tested. Exterior grades of OSB and plywood, and an [00:55:00] exterior grade uses a phenolic resin or phenol formaldehyde in lieu of a urea formaldehyde, neither of those products release formaldehyde, period. From a human health standpoint, there is no difference. Okay. It comes down to the structural component of the product.

[00:55:17] Andrew Pace: And there's some arguments to be made that plywood is more structurally sound than OSB. But I think now with, like the AdvanTech material that Huber makes, we have seen, no problems with that, with swelling. Using as a floor sheet, the material, I think years ago, the thought process was because plywood has a solid piece of wood on the surface, there's less likely a chance for any of that adhesive to get out via off gassing, but.

[00:55:46] Andrew Pace: It really doesn't matter anymore. If as long as you're using a, an exterior grade adhesive, there should be no formaldehyde off gas.

[00:55:53] Caroline Blazovsky: How about vapor transportation? So for example, we've always heard that OSB does not permit moisture [00:56:00] to transmit as easily as plywood does. So that's always been a concern.

[00:56:03] Caroline Blazovsky: And they're saying that will close in the envelope and create higher moisture levels within the house. Oh

[00:56:10] Andrew Pace: boy, that's, that, that's a good question. I have to admit my school of thought is I'd rather build a home that is a steel box completely free of air getting in, except for where I want it to come in, which is the argument for insulated concrete form construction because air only comes in where I want it to come in and therefore it's not going to be a problem in those areas where it's not supposed to come in.

[00:56:34] Andrew Pace: So, that all said, there is a little difference between plywood and OSB with vapor transmission, but, what I'm seeing is the adhesives used to ply plywood together over time, microscopically, they start to, to actually come together like marshmallows pushing together. Where it had breathability when it was new over time over a few years, they start to [00:57:00] squeeze together and you lose that vapor transmission ability.

[00:57:02] Andrew Pace: Gotcha. It's like paint.

[00:57:04] Eric Goranson: And then the one issue with plywood that you got to be careful with is that, those are veneers and there are holes in veneers. There are. There are voids within a sheet of plywood. And so that's always something that you have to take into account as well is because those in certain areas, if there's a fastener there, there can be a weak spot because you've got this void on the inside of that half inch or three quarter inch material.

[00:57:27] Andrew Pace: If we were using cabinet grade, Baltic birch for sheathing, it'd be different story.

[00:57:35] Eric Goranson: It's not nine ply that you're throwing up there.

[00:57:38] Andrew Pace: Exactly.

[00:57:39] Eric Goranson: So that's the other interesting point of that is that, I've had some pretty horrible, half inch CDX before that I was using for sheathing on a roof.

[00:57:47] Eric Goranson: And I'm like, Oh, that's a little spongy for me. I don't like that.

[00:57:51] Caroline Blazovsky: But that's the other reason, like Andrew's saying, we can pick and choose product. If we go to a lumber yard, we know what we're looking at, right? A homeowner will just get something. And if somebody gives them, [00:58:00] they're not a reputable contractor and they give them excuse me, crappy wood, they're not going to know.

[00:58:05] Caroline Blazovsky: And so we can look at it and go, you can take that right back where you got it from, but unfortunately that's why they need us to advocate for them for sure.

[00:58:13] Andrew Pace: And this is why I say to my clients, we're not striving for perfection. Years ago, we tried to build the perfect, healthy homes.

[00:58:21] Andrew Pace: Just everything was perfect. Everything had to be right. Now, I've softened my approach on this because there's got to be some leeway. There's got to be some give and take. We strive for tolerance. Now this is the reason why there is no such thing as a healthy home metric. There are green homes, energy efficient, sustainable, and so forth.

[00:58:42] Andrew Pace: Mainly because the environment can't sue, humans can. So I, a case in point, a

[00:58:49] Caroline Blazovsky: friend of mine

[00:58:49] Andrew Pace: in the industry who is one of the pioneers in this industry, a fellow by the name of John Bauer, wrote several books on how to build healthy homes. His wife has [00:59:00] extreme chemical sensitivity, wrote a book called Prescriptions for a Healthy Home.

[00:59:04] Andrew Pace: And people would buy his book, they would hire him as a consultant to build a healthy home, and they would say, you know what? It didn't work for me. And they'd sue him because it's his fault. Wow! So, we have to say, everything is based upon your own personal tolerance. But we've got to give some leeway because we know that even if I buy the best product in the world, if the crew doesn't install it correctly, everything's out the window, and vice versa, I can have the best crew in the world, but if it's a lousy product, it's still going to be a lousy product.

[00:59:36] Andrew Pace: So we got to have some leeway. We have to be able to be flexible with our projects and with our clients. So there is some room in case there's a big knot hole that dropped out of a piece of plywood. We know that it's don't worry. We've got a piece of ice and water shield doing the sides, taking care of it.

[00:59:54] Eric Goranson: No question. No question. So Andrew. If people want to track you down, what is the [01:00:00] best way to do that for our listeners out there that go, okay, I want more

[01:00:05] Andrew Pace: best way is to go to the website, the green design center. com from there. You can look at the materials that I've been able to. Put together over my career that I know are healthier for the occupants.

[01:00:19] Andrew Pace: That's also a way to get right to my consulting services. I would probably spend 75 percent of my day consulting with clients all over the world, helping them not only build a healthy home, but just live in a healthier space. And although I've got 25 houses under construction right now across the country in various stages, most of my clients are people who are booking me for a 15 minute or a 30 minute conversation on trying to find the healthiest hide glue for a wood application or something, to that matter, they just, they're looking for healthier materials.

[01:00:53] Andrew Pace: And you can go online and do a ton of research. And still be confused, or you can give me a call in a half [01:01:00] hour. We'll probably have that figured out. So everything about me can be found at that website. And then, certainly links to my podcast and other things that I

[01:01:08] Eric Goranson: let's toss up the name of your podcast out there too.

[01:01:10] Eric Goranson: We can we can cross promote here.

[01:01:13] Andrew Pace: Thank you. It's called non. Toxic environments. Three words. That's simple. That's simple. And you can find it on all the all the locations. You find any podcast. I

[01:01:22] Caroline Blazovsky: think you're fabulous. And cheers guys. Drink your whiskey. You're both fabulous. I love these guys.

[01:01:28] Caroline Blazovsky: I'm very lucky.

[01:01:30] Eric Goranson: Cheers. Thank you so much. Andrew.

[01:01:36] Caroline Blazovsky: I'm Eric G and I'm Caroline B.

[01:01:39] Eric Goranson: And you've been listening to Around the House,