You guys.
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I've got Troy going water here with me
today. Troy.
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Thank you.
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It's been a while
since we've tried to get together.
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Troy, I always start out with the,
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from the diapers, so to speak,
if that's okay.
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Yeah.
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And, but, I mean, this guy here, Troy,
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has some adventures
that I've had no idea about
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until we really,
put together this interview.
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But I've been,
so thrilled to sit down with you.
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I, you have no idea.
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But, Troy, you were born. Where?
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So I was born in Phoenix,
Arizona, in Saint Joseph's Hospital.
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I was born in Saint Joe's.
Where are you? Yeah.
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Yeah.
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That's crazy. Yeah. 1960.
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My father and mother were from Kentucky,
and my dad was an incredible athlete.
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But he had crippling asthma,
so he was told he needed to move.
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West to the desert. So he moved.
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He and my mother moved to Tucson and,
he became an attorney,
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went to law school there.
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And then after, becoming an attorney,
he moved to Phoenix.
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And that's where I was born.
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Okay. But high school. I went to Arcadia.
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Okay. Hopi grade school and Arcadia.
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And did you play sports in high school or.
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No, I.
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Was asked that
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because it's always interesting
with the active life that you've lived in.
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After this interview,
you guys, you get a load of why
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I ask about the athleticism
because you have done a bunch of stuff.
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Well, that was part of, you know,
my father introduced me to the outdoors
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so early on, and I just fell for it
hook, line and sinker.
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And so my whole life I devoted essentially
to being in the outdoors.
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And it's a little bit
more nuanced than that.
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I just,
I like going out and discovering things.
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I like the mystery of not knowing.
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Yeah.
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And so that's what I, I spent
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half of my high school years out
in the Bradshaw Mountains.
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I had a great American history
teacher named Bob Fink Biden,
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who encouraged me to do that.
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You just showed me the the, incredible
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organizational skill that you have,
but you've gone back and,
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kept track of your journals, and,
it looks like a treasure trove to me.
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And I wish I had those
organizational skills that I just saw,
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but, with that,
you had mentioned your dad.
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And let's start with your dad,
and then we're going
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to get to your brothers
and mom and everybody and.
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Sister. And sister. And so.
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But your dad has three boys
and a girl. Yes.
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And so was he, always out in the outdoors
when he got a chance to.
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As an attorney, sometimes you get
kind of buried by the business and.
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Well, that's exactly what happened to him.
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He died young at 49.
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Oh, well of a heart event.
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And, in fact, the night that he died,
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he was absolutely whipping
my ass on a tennis court.
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He was a singles champion tennis player
in Kentucky, among other things.
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Football, basketball, everything.
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Now he. Yeah, he was into the sports.
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He was good.
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But then he, you know, he got married,
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had four kids and his life
became providing for the family.
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So he would take us hunting and fishing
as much as he could
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and encouraged us to do that.
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But I think most of that for him
occurred in Kentucky.
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Oh, interesting.
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Yeah.
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And, you've done amazing,
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treks and experiences with your brothers.
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And, tell us about your sister.
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I'm so lucky.
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But to have my sister and my two brothers
because it was really fun.
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I am the third in line.
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So, you know, my sister,
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is today, but was extremely good looking.
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And so when when anyone found out that
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I was Elizabeth's little brother,
they wanted to hang out with me at my.
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House and.
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By default.
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Yeah.
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And, and and conversely, my older brother
Gil, who was a star athlete
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and that was probably the
one of the reasons I didn't really choose
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to go down that path, because, you know,
I was always going to be in the shadow.
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Shadow? Yeah.
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But he, Yeah.
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Yeah, he sometimes my friends would call.
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He had, he loved to play.
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I guess we could call them
tricks on people.
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Yeah. You know, but younger brother.
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And so it wasn't
always great to be around.
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And so a lot of times my buddies would
call and I'd say, yeah, come on over.
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And they would
say, well, is your brother there?
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And then,
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00:04:48,154 --> 00:04:50,990
and then my younger brother Todd,
who lives in Flagstaff,
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00:04:50,990 --> 00:04:54,627
and he is the CEO of Russell
and Sotheby's International Realty.
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He was a great athlete. He's
kind of a blend.
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He was a great athlete
and he loves the outdoors.
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Yeah, big fly fishing.
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And, how about mom?
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We just lost mom, last November.
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She lived to 92.
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She was just a fantastic mother.
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In that she would allow me to.
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Well, when I was 13 years old,
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I and another friend of mine
of the same age, Matt Davis,
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they drove us out to the north side
of Lake Pleasant,
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dropped us off
with our backpacks and rifles.
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That's what you did back then.
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You carried a rifle, and our goal at age
13 was to hike
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from there to Prescott, Arizona,
and it took us about ten days.
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But, you know, we got caught in
deep snow in the Bradshaw.
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So we came down into mare and went through
Lonesome Valley and back up over the top
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of Mingus Mountain and into Jerome,
where we concluded the hike.
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But, very good from that point
on, you know,
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I was just hooked with that type of thing.
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Well, and what a what
incredible confidence and the insight,
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the parents had to say, hey,
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this is going to teach you
more than anything in your life.
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And, if you survive,
this is going to be a paramount,
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instruction for the young wives. Yes.
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And, you know, now, when I look back on
and I can remember on various
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hunting trips
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with my father where he would ask me,
okay, well, how do we get back to the car?
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How do we get back to the truck and.
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Try to you those look behind you.
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Yeah, absolutely. Oh that's fantastic.
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The, journey of Phoenix.
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You're still, a local boy down there.
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Yeah, but these other journeys
have broadened your,
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perspective of this incredible area.
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The plateau, the
the states, the Four corners and beyond.
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And the Colorado is,
the least of it, really,
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when you look at the overall mass of stuff
that you walked around and looked at.
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I wanted to ask you a
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couple things
about some of your adventures.
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And one that really strikes out is,
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is your,
walk with your brother on the Arizona
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Trail and yes, I understand
pre Arizona trail.
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Can you go, that's going to be
the first of a big event to share.
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Will you talk about. Sure.
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So in in 78, Gil
and I hiked the Pacific Crest
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Trail from the Oregon
Washington border at, Manning Park.
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Canada. British Columbia.
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So all the way
through the state of Washington.
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And that was such a great experience.
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We thought, well,
why don't we walk across Arizona?
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And so we started looking into it
and planning it.
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And at that time I was still in college.
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My brother was, my brother Gil was working
in real estate, and we made a deal.
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He said, I'll finance it if you plan it.
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So I spent two years planning that route.
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Yeah. And the planning would take.
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Well, the problem in Arizona,
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you know, we wanted to be
as far in the wilderness as possible.
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So the challenge in Arizona is, you know,
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water wherever there's water there people.
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So, you know.
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So we came upon an idea, actually,
it was my brother
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Gil's idea to to bring mules
to pack the water.
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And Brian,
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that was the best thing that ever
happened, not just because we had water
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and the water enabled us
to stay out in the middle of nowhere.
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But just because of the mules
getting to know their personalities
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and the crazy things that happened to us.
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I mean, like them
getting submerged in Tonto Creek
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and because we had fiberglass panniers,
they acted as water wings.
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And you're sitting there
watching the tunnel
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Creek and flood stage with your two meals.
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Were.
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Floating away downstream
with everything you.
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Have to. Have. Yeah. Crazy.
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Well, and, you know,
I've been lucky enough to be around
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mules a little bit in Grand Canyon,
through friends that,
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work down there with the mules had gone on
a little journey or two on mules.
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And I have a love of, for that animal.
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They're smart, incredibly athletic beasts.
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Yeah. And that.
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But they're so. Calm.
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They're calm. They're a special beast.
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They're not the quickest loners on planet
Earth.
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You know, they have never been accused.
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And too much of that.
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That's fantastic that.
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Anyway, it was a great trip.
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It was about 810 miles
and took us two and a half months and we,
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we had we finished on the day
that we had planned to finish on it.
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And when you think of all the events
that it could delay, it's unbelievable.
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Yeah.
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00:09:40,780 --> 00:09:43,983
Now, couple questions on the way.
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Of course,
you think about all the east west travel.
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There's there's interstates
to cross, there's highways to cross,
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00:09:52,325 --> 00:09:57,630
there's towns to either skirt
or maybe you get force through them.
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00:09:58,064 --> 00:10:01,200
Give us a little bit
about the human imprint
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00:10:01,601 --> 00:10:04,604
or the human footprint
you had to deal with.
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00:10:04,737 --> 00:10:05,204
Sure.
199
00:10:05,204 --> 00:10:08,407
So it was a wilderness from A to B, right?
200
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Right. And we had food drops.
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00:10:10,109 --> 00:10:14,714
We had food drops, in Williams,
202
00:10:15,414 --> 00:10:17,917
in pumpkin Center.
203
00:10:17,917 --> 00:10:20,653
Crown King
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00:10:20,653 --> 00:10:25,224
and Fort Grant Bonita
down in the Santa Teresa Valley.
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So we started in Skeleton Canyon
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00:10:28,661 --> 00:10:31,797
right on the Sonora, Arizona border.
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And we did that just because.
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Well, I've always been into the history
of the state of Arizona and all the crazy
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00:10:37,637 --> 00:10:42,775
things that happened back there,
in the late 1800s to the Apache Wars.
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So we started there
and we went, you know, generally north,
211
00:10:47,513 --> 00:10:50,483
and we learned real quickly
212
00:10:50,583 --> 00:10:54,787
when we got shot at by a rancher
while we were watering mules, that
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00:10:54,787 --> 00:10:58,424
we needed to get off the private lands
and get into public lands.
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00:10:58,791 --> 00:11:03,162
And so we got up into the chair
at Eureka, was went through Dos Cabezas.
215
00:11:03,162 --> 00:11:05,164
Wilcox. Interesting. Yeah, yeah.
216
00:11:05,164 --> 00:11:08,634
Was he just given warning shots
or was he just a terrible name?
217
00:11:09,268 --> 00:11:11,237
No, he was just giving warning shots.
218
00:11:11,237 --> 00:11:13,239
He he finally marched on down.
219
00:11:13,239 --> 00:11:15,041
And, you know,
I don't know what I was thinking.
220
00:11:15,041 --> 00:11:18,377
I, when I was planning it,
I didn't do a great job by that.
221
00:11:18,377 --> 00:11:19,211
I just thought, you know,
222
00:11:19,211 --> 00:11:23,249
heck, we'll just walk through this
San Simeon Valley, you know?
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00:11:23,249 --> 00:11:25,484
Well, the fence is everywhere.
224
00:11:25,484 --> 00:11:28,154
And, you know,
there was drug traffic back then.
225
00:11:28,154 --> 00:11:28,621
Oh, yeah.
226
00:11:28,621 --> 00:11:31,123
And so here, these two guys, he he was.
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00:11:31,123 --> 00:11:31,924
With mules.
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00:11:31,924 --> 00:11:37,596
With mules and, no, he he came down
and talked to us and he said,
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00:11:37,596 --> 00:11:41,367
you know, if, if you would have run,
I wouldn't have missed.
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00:11:42,101 --> 00:11:44,403
And, he was nice enough, but
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00:11:44,403 --> 00:11:47,973
he encouraged us to get off private land
and get into the public land.
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00:11:48,007 --> 00:11:48,340
Yeah.
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00:11:48,340 --> 00:11:53,145
See, here is a good little, impetus
for you guys in your out plan.
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00:11:53,179 --> 00:11:54,780
Yes. Fences.
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00:11:55,815 --> 00:11:56,782
How did you deal with that?
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00:11:56,782 --> 00:11:57,583
That's fences.
237
00:11:57,583 --> 00:11:59,819
Were were really, really tough.
238
00:11:59,819 --> 00:12:02,488
We. But,
239
00:12:02,488 --> 00:12:06,726
you know, fence cutting tools
and patch tools and things like that.
240
00:12:06,726 --> 00:12:08,828
So we tried to avoid that.
241
00:12:08,828 --> 00:12:13,065
We got smarter as the time went on,
and we would go to the vertical stays
242
00:12:13,065 --> 00:12:16,535
and clip where the barbed wire
was attached to the vertical
243
00:12:17,203 --> 00:12:20,673
and push those down
and then drive the mules across.
244
00:12:20,673 --> 00:12:23,943
But I swear, Brian,
they would intentionally drag
245
00:12:23,943 --> 00:12:27,680
their hooves on the ground and they would
still get cut up on those fences.
246
00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:28,114
Yeah.
247
00:12:28,114 --> 00:12:30,382
You know, and it was a real problem.
248
00:12:30,382 --> 00:12:33,185
Nothing worse than a smarter meal. No.
249
00:12:33,185 --> 00:12:34,820
It was, Yeah.
250
00:12:34,820 --> 00:12:37,123
Did you ever get confronted,
251
00:12:37,123 --> 00:12:39,425
about the fence? No.
252
00:12:39,425 --> 00:12:41,160
Yeah, that's a good thing. Yeah.
253
00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:45,931
And once we got out of southern Arizona,
we didn't really encounter that very much.
254
00:12:45,931 --> 00:12:48,300
We did. This is kind of a funny story.
255
00:12:48,300 --> 00:12:51,704
We did encounter it at two saying we
256
00:12:52,471 --> 00:12:54,440
the logistics for our trip is
257
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,409
we knew that we would probably have
to send our mules back
258
00:12:57,409 --> 00:12:59,678
once we reached the South
Rim of the Grand Canyon,
259
00:12:59,678 --> 00:13:03,749
because you couldn't take private animals
into the Grand Canyon and we picked up
260
00:13:03,749 --> 00:13:08,454
cross-country skis for the transit
from the North Rim to Jacob's Lake.
261
00:13:08,854 --> 00:13:11,690
But we knew we were getting close.
262
00:13:11,690 --> 00:13:14,360
But we encountered
this barbed wire fence.
263
00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:19,732
So I looked through the forest and I saw
what I thought was a paved roadway.
264
00:13:19,832 --> 00:13:22,802
So we we clipped through the fence, drove
the mules out.
265
00:13:22,802 --> 00:13:24,837
Of course, they go trotting off.
266
00:13:24,837 --> 00:13:27,039
Well, it wasn't a roadway.
267
00:13:27,039 --> 00:13:28,941
It was the airstrip.
268
00:13:28,941 --> 00:13:30,976
And now I've got my two meals.
269
00:13:30,976 --> 00:13:35,548
Grandma and Judy, 800 pound mules
standing on the airstrip.
270
00:13:36,015 --> 00:13:39,451
And, you know,
we were out there trying to grab them.
271
00:13:39,652 --> 00:13:42,121
Planes are veering off on approach.
272
00:13:42,121 --> 00:13:43,322
It was bad.
273
00:13:43,322 --> 00:13:45,558
We got them out of there and. Yeah.
274
00:13:45,558 --> 00:13:47,760
You didn't get arrested? No,
we didn't get arrested.
275
00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,061
We got out of there quickly.
276
00:13:49,061 --> 00:13:50,362
Oh my goodness. Yes.
277
00:13:50,362 --> 00:13:54,500
Now that then,
the mules were fairly fleet of foot. Yes.
278
00:13:56,202 --> 00:13:59,171
And so and then, as you're
279
00:13:59,171 --> 00:14:04,376
going and dealing with the water issue,
how much water can a mule carry?
280
00:14:04,710 --> 00:14:09,949
We were carrying, I believe, 10
to 15 gallons, something like that.
281
00:14:10,683 --> 00:14:12,718
Yeah. So you weren't overloading them.
282
00:14:12,718 --> 00:14:13,853
You know, we weren't helping.
283
00:14:13,853 --> 00:14:17,523
Out it
to where you could resupply water. Yes.
284
00:14:17,523 --> 00:14:19,525
And that water was just for us.
285
00:14:19,525 --> 00:14:22,461
We didn't.
Because those mules can drink anything.
286
00:14:22,461 --> 00:14:25,531
And we, you know,
we would find water along the way.
287
00:14:25,698 --> 00:14:26,298
Yeah.
288
00:14:26,298 --> 00:14:29,301
So that
that was just potable water for us.
289
00:14:29,401 --> 00:14:32,371
And then you were able
to bring your stores on top.
290
00:14:32,371 --> 00:14:34,840
Of the water. Yeah. Yeah.
291
00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:35,941
That is really cool.
292
00:14:35,941 --> 00:14:39,612
The mules, romantic
aspect of that journey.
293
00:14:39,945 --> 00:14:41,580
They really made the whole difference.
294
00:14:41,580 --> 00:14:45,351
I mean, I these images are forever
emblazoned in my mind,
295
00:14:45,351 --> 00:14:47,586
going up the backside
of the Bradshaw Mountains.
296
00:14:47,586 --> 00:14:49,154
We had to go in the middle of the night
297
00:14:49,154 --> 00:14:51,557
because the temperatures
were getting up there.
298
00:14:51,557 --> 00:14:55,160
And so as we climbed up to the old mining
town of Crown King passing
299
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,196
through, or a bell and.
300
00:14:57,196 --> 00:15:00,432
Right, and in the middle of the night
and we could look down
301
00:15:00,432 --> 00:15:04,770
and see the lights of Phoenix gleaming,
you know, 50 miles below.
302
00:15:04,970 --> 00:15:07,573
Yet we felt like
we were back in the 1800s.
303
00:15:07,573 --> 00:15:09,341
It was a strange paradox.
304
00:15:09,341 --> 00:15:09,842
Yeah.
305
00:15:09,842 --> 00:15:13,178
You know, and and that was kind of true
of the entire trip, actually.
306
00:15:13,312 --> 00:15:14,213
Yeah, yeah.
307
00:15:14,213 --> 00:15:19,285
Because you can see a sign,
but you're really out there nevertheless.
308
00:15:19,285 --> 00:15:24,757
And so now with, with that adventure,
we may as well
309
00:15:24,757 --> 00:15:28,727
just segue right into the Arizona trail
if you if that were.
310
00:15:28,727 --> 00:15:29,061
Sure.
311
00:15:30,496 --> 00:15:32,965
There there has been a long progression.
312
00:15:32,965 --> 00:15:33,832
What year was it?
313
00:15:33,832 --> 00:15:35,100
It was in 70.
314
00:15:35,100 --> 00:15:38,137
So we did our trip in 1982, 82.
315
00:15:38,137 --> 00:15:44,043
And the Arizona Trail was the
the concept, the notion of an Arizona
316
00:15:44,043 --> 00:15:49,882
trail was announced in 1985 by a Flagstaff
guy named Dale Showalter.
317
00:15:50,115 --> 00:15:51,250
I regret that I Walter.
318
00:15:51,250 --> 00:15:51,450
Yeah.
319
00:15:51,450 --> 00:15:54,520
Yeah, I regret that I never met him, but,
320
00:15:54,586 --> 00:15:57,856
that's when he announced
the notion of it.
321
00:15:57,856 --> 00:16:01,193
And then since then, through the years,
you know, piece by piece, it's
322
00:16:01,193 --> 00:16:02,461
been strung together.
323
00:16:02,461 --> 00:16:07,599
And you had the support or have you been
involved with that push for that?
324
00:16:08,033 --> 00:16:11,971
No, not not really about,
I don't know, five years ago
325
00:16:11,971 --> 00:16:17,343
or so I, got involved with the Arizona
Trail Association mostly as just
326
00:16:17,776 --> 00:16:21,313
becoming a member of the association,
donating where I could.
327
00:16:21,313 --> 00:16:22,648
And, and a fan.
328
00:16:22,648 --> 00:16:25,651
Yeah, it's present.
Yeah, a huge proponent.
329
00:16:25,951 --> 00:16:28,687
But then we just kind of
came across this idea
330
00:16:28,687 --> 00:16:33,158
of having a documentary done
of our 1982 trip
331
00:16:33,726 --> 00:16:36,962
and, to allow the Arizona Trail to use it
332
00:16:36,962 --> 00:16:40,299
as a fundraising tool
because they wish to create an endowment.
333
00:16:40,766 --> 00:16:44,703
So we have the Arizona Trail in
perpetuity, which I think is a great idea.
334
00:16:44,703 --> 00:16:46,972
And I've thrown my full weight in support
that.
335
00:16:46,972 --> 00:16:49,074
I can see that. Yeah.
336
00:16:49,074 --> 00:16:52,277
And so you're in production on this,
I understand.
337
00:16:52,277 --> 00:16:53,612
Yeah. The filming is done.
338
00:16:53,612 --> 00:16:56,749
We were really fortunate
before we left in 1982.
339
00:16:56,749 --> 00:16:59,918
We had the good fortune to meet governor
then Bruce Babbitt.
340
00:17:00,619 --> 00:17:03,322
So good. Got a great governor,
a great guy.
341
00:17:03,322 --> 00:17:06,358
And it was so funny
because we brought in a map and he
342
00:17:06,492 --> 00:17:11,163
he was very interested in our route
and where we were going.
343
00:17:11,397 --> 00:17:15,034
And so when the idea of this documentary
came up,
344
00:17:15,034 --> 00:17:18,037
we're thinking, well,
I wonder if he would even remember us.
345
00:17:18,337 --> 00:17:21,140
And we found him and he's he's
346
00:17:21,140 --> 00:17:24,143
living mostly in Washington, DC.
347
00:17:24,276 --> 00:17:27,279
And we flew back there and and filmed him.
348
00:17:27,379 --> 00:17:29,615
Just a remarkable guy with a memory.
349
00:17:29,615 --> 00:17:30,783
He he knew us.
350
00:17:30,783 --> 00:17:33,152
And Newell remembered all about our trip.
351
00:17:33,152 --> 00:17:35,487
He's well known for being one smart guy.
352
00:17:35,487 --> 00:17:38,557
Yeah, he is, he is. Oh, that's so cool.
353
00:17:38,557 --> 00:17:40,659
And he he, How old is. Bruce?
354
00:17:40,659 --> 00:17:42,494
86. 86 years old.
355
00:17:42,494 --> 00:17:44,563
With a brain of a 40 year old.
356
00:17:44,563 --> 00:17:46,565
And he's. He's still pretty good shape.
357
00:17:46,565 --> 00:17:48,000
Yeah, I'm. Glad to hear. That.
358
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:49,768
Yeah. In real good shape.
359
00:17:49,768 --> 00:17:50,202
And he.
360
00:17:50,202 --> 00:17:53,372
He remembered you
and really engaged in in the.
361
00:17:53,439 --> 00:17:54,306
Yeah. Project.
362
00:17:54,306 --> 00:17:55,074
Yeah. It was sure.
363
00:17:55,074 --> 00:17:57,643
Because he's an Arizona boy. Yes.
364
00:17:57,643 --> 00:17:58,577
It was kind of funny.
365
00:17:58,577 --> 00:18:00,212
We asked him what did you think, Bruce?
366
00:18:00,212 --> 00:18:03,315
Did you think back then
we had, you know, any chance of making it?
367
00:18:03,315 --> 00:18:06,718
He's like, no, absolutely not.
368
00:18:06,985 --> 00:18:09,154
There's too many things that can happen.
369
00:18:09,154 --> 00:18:11,090
Well it's fantastic.
370
00:18:11,090 --> 00:18:15,260
You know, the whole Babbitt clan
has such roots in Flagstaff.
371
00:18:15,260 --> 00:18:20,532
And,
having known Bruce and his brothers and,
372
00:18:20,799 --> 00:18:23,535
all that, it's
nice to hear he's doing well.
373
00:18:23,535 --> 00:18:26,004
Yeah. Shout out to the whole Babbitt clan.
374
00:18:26,004 --> 00:18:26,672
Yeah. Bruce.
375
00:18:28,140 --> 00:18:31,443
And so, that makes so much sense.
376
00:18:31,443 --> 00:18:34,446
And endowment and, when do you think the
377
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,517
they'll finalize
this, documentary production?
378
00:18:38,617 --> 00:18:42,621
We're hoping to have the documentary done
sometime this fall
379
00:18:42,621 --> 00:18:45,591
with a premiere showing in March.
Okay, cool.
380
00:18:45,591 --> 00:18:48,594
Well, put that in your calendars,
you guys that are listening,
381
00:18:49,261 --> 00:18:52,664
because I think I'm going to be sitting
and looking forward to that.
382
00:18:53,065 --> 00:18:56,068
And, I honestly,
383
00:18:56,301 --> 00:19:01,039
envy your,
experience as early as it was.
384
00:19:01,039 --> 00:19:03,242
I mean, that had to help shape things.
385
00:19:03,242 --> 00:19:04,243
Yeah. It did.
386
00:19:04,243 --> 00:19:07,079
I mean, I was still in college
when that happened, you know?
387
00:19:07,079 --> 00:19:07,412
Yeah.
388
00:19:07,412 --> 00:19:12,384
And the cool thing is too about
it is it's,
389
00:19:13,585 --> 00:19:16,355
really dynamic terrain.
390
00:19:16,355 --> 00:19:17,156
Arizona.
391
00:19:17,156 --> 00:19:22,127
It's a very challenging thing that you,
you accomplished, with the mountains
392
00:19:22,794 --> 00:19:26,932
and with the desert and the water issue
and the human footprint.
393
00:19:28,867 --> 00:19:31,470
You have mentioned the Bradshaws
394
00:19:31,470 --> 00:19:35,040
as kind of one of your stomping grounds
to your life.
395
00:19:35,340 --> 00:19:37,543
Talk to us a little bit about, sure.
396
00:19:37,543 --> 00:19:40,112
Sure time. Well,
the the, Bradshaw Mountains,
397
00:19:40,112 --> 00:19:42,047
because I've always been interested
in history.
398
00:19:42,047 --> 00:19:46,051
And, you know, back in, I think it was in
the 1860s, there were 15,000 people
399
00:19:46,051 --> 00:19:49,054
living in the bradshaws
because of the gold strike.
400
00:19:49,054 --> 00:19:51,790
And for some reason,
I just resonated to that.
401
00:19:51,790 --> 00:19:56,895
I was fascinated by the prospectors,
the miners, and I used to pore over
402
00:19:57,229 --> 00:20:00,799
contour maps,
you know, the USGS contour maps and, and.
403
00:20:00,799 --> 00:20:04,036
And the claims. And,
yeah, all that stuff.
404
00:20:04,036 --> 00:20:09,608
So when I did that hike, when I was 13,
I noticed that there was a canyon,
405
00:20:09,608 --> 00:20:14,813
a particular canyon
that had a ghost town on either end of it.
406
00:20:14,813 --> 00:20:18,951
There was there were two miles apart,
and I could tell by the contour lines
407
00:20:18,951 --> 00:20:22,154
that it was really,
really steep, tight country.
408
00:20:22,588 --> 00:20:27,593
And on this trip at that time, we we just
couldn't take the time to go there.
409
00:20:27,593 --> 00:20:29,328
We had to keep continuing north.
410
00:20:29,328 --> 00:20:32,664
But I marked it in my memory
and I said, I'm going to come back.
411
00:20:32,664 --> 00:20:36,802
Well, I did when I was 15 and it's this,
412
00:20:36,802 --> 00:20:40,072
it's it's not a slot canyon,
but it's a very steep desert canyon.
413
00:20:40,372 --> 00:20:41,573
And we came around this bend.
414
00:20:41,573 --> 00:20:46,044
I was with a different buddy of mine,
and I smelled woodsmoke.
415
00:20:46,211 --> 00:20:50,082
And I'm like, there's
there shouldn't be anyone living out here.
416
00:20:50,582 --> 00:20:55,320
And all of a sudden, because the canyon
was so deep and so dark, as my eyes
417
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,958
adjusted to the darkness, I saw a doorway
leading into the side of the hill,
418
00:21:00,659 --> 00:21:03,662
and all of a sudden
this guy comes running out
419
00:21:03,662 --> 00:21:07,532
that looked like Charlie Manson,
and he's looking around
420
00:21:07,532 --> 00:21:11,503
and he sees me, runs back into his cab,
and comes back out
421
00:21:11,503 --> 00:21:15,240
with a gun
belt with the gun belt and straps it on.
422
00:21:15,540 --> 00:21:18,844
And my buddy screamed
and started running the other way.
423
00:21:19,177 --> 00:21:20,312
And I'm like, I'm not.
424
00:21:20,312 --> 00:21:24,016
I'm not turning my back on this guy
because I haven't done anything wrong.
425
00:21:24,283 --> 00:21:27,119
So I immediately kind of put up my hands.
426
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,322
I was carrying a 22 lever action rifle
at the time.
427
00:21:30,322 --> 00:21:33,625
Again, at that time, in that context,
that's what you did.
428
00:21:33,625 --> 00:21:34,726
Your right. Yep.
429
00:21:34,726 --> 00:21:39,264
So he comes splashing across the creek
and gets within ten feet of me.
430
00:21:39,264 --> 00:21:43,402
I'm meantime going on I don't mean to be
trespassing, I'm just passing through.
431
00:21:43,869 --> 00:21:47,973
Well, all of a sudden I just
I very slowly extended my hand
432
00:21:48,206 --> 00:21:50,509
and he came out and shook it.
433
00:21:50,509 --> 00:21:51,910
And we started talking.
434
00:21:51,910 --> 00:21:55,380
And I realize he was just
he was hard of hearing
435
00:21:55,781 --> 00:21:59,651
from all the blasting
he had done as a hard rock miner.
436
00:21:59,651 --> 00:22:00,919
Miner, I say, and.
437
00:22:00,919 --> 00:22:04,323
I'm like, well,
how how long have you been out here?
438
00:22:04,323 --> 00:22:07,326
And he goes, well, I you know,
I got out here in the 50s
439
00:22:07,893 --> 00:22:09,461
and I said, what do you do?
440
00:22:09,461 --> 00:22:11,163
You see many people out here.
441
00:22:11,163 --> 00:22:14,833
And he goes, oh,
I had a couple boys through here in 58.
442
00:22:15,801 --> 00:22:18,503
And this is 1973.
443
00:22:18,503 --> 00:22:19,338
That's incredible.
444
00:22:19,338 --> 00:22:21,473
And he invited me into his cabin.
445
00:22:21,473 --> 00:22:25,410
And Brian,
it was like walking into a living museum.
446
00:22:25,711 --> 00:22:30,615
He had rattlesnake skins pinned
on the walls, a kerosene lamp burning.
447
00:22:30,615 --> 00:22:32,050
There was no electricity.
448
00:22:32,050 --> 00:22:33,719
No, he didn't own the land.
449
00:22:33,719 --> 00:22:38,223
He was on a UN patented mining claim,
technically on BLM lands.
450
00:22:39,124 --> 00:22:42,094
And we just we just hit it off
451
00:22:42,094 --> 00:22:45,964
and I took every opportunity
I could to go visit him.
452
00:22:46,231 --> 00:22:47,933
Oh, what a fantastic thing.
453
00:22:47,933 --> 00:22:49,167
He was the real deal.
454
00:22:49,167 --> 00:22:51,937
He was the real deal.
Did he have a water source?
455
00:22:51,937 --> 00:22:53,071
Humbug Creek.
456
00:22:53,071 --> 00:22:55,207
So he was drinking right out of the creek.
457
00:22:55,207 --> 00:22:58,744
Sometimes could get pretty bad, but
because that canyon was so steep,
458
00:22:58,744 --> 00:23:02,481
there were some deep pools
that would survive the summers.
459
00:23:02,748 --> 00:23:04,416
Never saw sunlight.
460
00:23:04,416 --> 00:23:07,419
So, yeah, he was the real deal.
461
00:23:07,619 --> 00:23:08,153
Yeah. No.
462
00:23:09,121 --> 00:23:11,089
And you showed me
463
00:23:11,089 --> 00:23:14,793
a few pictures of him,
and we'll put that on our site.
464
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,162
Yeah. A picture of it. Yeah.
465
00:23:17,162 --> 00:23:19,164
And what was his? He was curly.
466
00:23:19,164 --> 00:23:20,499
A curly McBee.
467
00:23:20,499 --> 00:23:21,333
And he was a kid.
468
00:23:21,333 --> 00:23:24,403
He was paranoid a of, claim jumpers.
469
00:23:24,903 --> 00:23:26,371
And when I was able to convince them,
470
00:23:26,371 --> 00:23:29,875
I had no interest in his claims,
everything was good, was his.
471
00:23:30,542 --> 00:23:33,812
He wasn't still actively digging, was.
472
00:23:33,812 --> 00:23:35,814
You know, he was. He was.
473
00:23:35,814 --> 00:23:38,817
And this is another strange coincidence
474
00:23:39,017 --> 00:23:42,788
that has kind of weaved the path through
my life is
475
00:23:43,188 --> 00:23:46,725
and I didn't I was too young to realize
what was happening, but
476
00:23:47,826 --> 00:23:50,128
at the time I met him,
477
00:23:50,128 --> 00:23:55,066
he was losing his ability
to be completely self-reliant.
478
00:23:55,467 --> 00:23:58,470
Previous he was mining for gold. He would.
479
00:23:58,470 --> 00:24:02,941
He was a placer miner,
and he would take the gold over to Rock
480
00:24:02,941 --> 00:24:07,145
Springs and trade it for groceries,
and then march back across.
481
00:24:07,546 --> 00:24:10,549
Rock Springs on I-70. Yes. Yeah. No.
482
00:24:10,615 --> 00:24:11,716
Yeah, yeah.
483
00:24:11,716 --> 00:24:16,488
And about the time I met him,
he was so crippled up with arthritis.
484
00:24:16,888 --> 00:24:20,292
And I, like I said, I was too young
to realize what was happening,
485
00:24:20,592 --> 00:24:24,463
but he became dependent on me,
which I loved.
486
00:24:24,496 --> 00:24:26,965
Right. Yeah. You were there for him.
You were brought to, you know, he.
487
00:24:26,965 --> 00:24:28,567
I had greater power.
488
00:24:28,567 --> 00:24:29,401
Absolutely.
489
00:24:29,401 --> 00:24:32,370
And at the end,
I was bringing up all his groceries.
490
00:24:32,604 --> 00:24:34,272
So I had to be there.
491
00:24:34,272 --> 00:24:35,040
He relied.
492
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,543
What frequency would
you have to be there to keep him.
493
00:24:38,543 --> 00:24:41,079
Rolling about once every 45 days?
494
00:24:43,248 --> 00:24:46,184
I could bring up, you know, I,
I have these checklists,
495
00:24:46,184 --> 00:24:50,622
and they're the funniest things,
you know, the the stuff he ate, hardtack,
496
00:24:51,122 --> 00:24:53,725
you know, pinto beans.
497
00:24:53,725 --> 00:24:56,561
He was a man of simple meat spam.
498
00:24:56,561 --> 00:24:57,596
And then I couldn't.
499
00:24:57,596 --> 00:25:01,433
I couldn't
forget the eight gallons of Gallo wine.
500
00:25:02,100 --> 00:25:02,901
I mean.
501
00:25:02,901 --> 00:25:04,135
He would need the wine.
502
00:25:04,135 --> 00:25:05,670
He would need that.
503
00:25:05,670 --> 00:25:09,708
But, you know, he was a smart guy
because one of the things that we would do
504
00:25:09,708 --> 00:25:13,011
is go out for mesquite wood
because he he utilize
505
00:25:13,044 --> 00:25:16,047
mesquite wood like we utilize petroleum.
506
00:25:16,248 --> 00:25:18,116
The mesquite heated his.
507
00:25:18,116 --> 00:25:19,551
Cabin that was his home.
508
00:25:19,551 --> 00:25:21,152
It cooked his foods.
509
00:25:21,152 --> 00:25:22,854
And I used to wonder, why are we going?
510
00:25:22,854 --> 00:25:25,857
I mean, we would walk a mile
and a half to go get Mesquite.
511
00:25:25,857 --> 00:25:27,893
When there was, it was surrounding us.
512
00:25:27,893 --> 00:25:31,162
And he told me, well, Troy,
I'm saving that for when I'm old.
513
00:25:32,464 --> 00:25:35,033
What an amazing, amazing thing.
514
00:25:35,033 --> 00:25:35,867
And that.
515
00:25:35,867 --> 00:25:38,937
Yeah,
I mean, that really is that that says
516
00:25:38,937 --> 00:25:41,406
a million words about who this guy was.
517
00:25:41,406 --> 00:25:42,474
Yeah.
518
00:25:42,474 --> 00:25:46,111
And so you kept his friendship for.
519
00:25:46,411 --> 00:25:51,483
For, for ten years and then and a lot of
things happened within that ten years.
520
00:25:51,483 --> 00:25:56,621
I and you know, I and introduced him
to my brothers, my father.
521
00:25:57,088 --> 00:26:00,125
So a lot of things happened in that time.
522
00:26:00,125 --> 00:26:04,563
You had to hike in
and but one time I went up there
523
00:26:04,996 --> 00:26:09,301
and what would typically happen
is, as I would get near his cabin,
524
00:26:09,301 --> 00:26:10,835
I would start calling out his name
525
00:26:10,835 --> 00:26:14,673
in the lowest voice because he was tone
deaf with high pitched.
526
00:26:14,673 --> 00:26:16,441
Oh, you figured out it. Yeah.
527
00:26:16,441 --> 00:26:18,977
So in the lowest voice. Oh, interesting.
528
00:26:18,977 --> 00:26:21,980
And because he would,
he would come running out with his gun.
529
00:26:22,547 --> 00:26:24,683
Well, this one time he didn't.
530
00:26:24,683 --> 00:26:26,751
And I knew I just knew.
531
00:26:26,751 --> 00:26:27,786
Something was wrong.
532
00:26:27,786 --> 00:26:31,590
And I walked in
and he always kept his front door open.
533
00:26:32,090 --> 00:26:35,393
So I walked in and his cabin was dark.
534
00:26:35,794 --> 00:26:38,863
It was lit by just one single flame
from a kerosene
535
00:26:38,863 --> 00:26:42,167
lamp, and curly laid there on the bed.
536
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,671
Kind of face down, but his head cocked,
looking towards the door,
537
00:26:47,405 --> 00:26:51,276
and and his eyes were open,
and I could see
538
00:26:51,610 --> 00:26:56,214
the reflection of the kerosene lamps
flame in his eyeball,
539
00:26:56,214 --> 00:26:59,618
and there was moisture there,
so I thought he was alive.
540
00:26:59,951 --> 00:27:03,922
I touched him,
he was warm, but he wasn't alive.
541
00:27:04,322 --> 00:27:07,325
Yeah, and it rattled me pretty good.
542
00:27:07,626 --> 00:27:08,727
Yeah. I live in a house.
543
00:27:08,727 --> 00:27:10,362
Yeah, that would be a tough one.
544
00:27:10,362 --> 00:27:11,763
I was on a first date.
545
00:27:11,763 --> 00:27:14,332
It was a great place to take first dates.
546
00:27:14,332 --> 00:27:17,068
But, Yes.
547
00:27:17,068 --> 00:27:19,971
So it wasn't so great this time.
548
00:27:19,971 --> 00:27:21,473
But, Yeah, we.
549
00:27:21,473 --> 00:27:24,542
Hiked out and then we drove to Castle
Hot Springs, which,
550
00:27:24,876 --> 00:27:27,579
you know, Castle Hot Springs
at that time, they it wasn't open.
551
00:27:27,579 --> 00:27:28,980
It wasn't anything.
552
00:27:28,980 --> 00:27:31,282
There was a caretaker there
and there was a phone.
553
00:27:31,282 --> 00:27:35,253
So I called Yavapai County Sheriff
and they sent some deputies out.
554
00:27:35,787 --> 00:27:37,489
And those guys were great.
555
00:27:37,489 --> 00:27:38,857
They we arrived.
556
00:27:38,857 --> 00:27:40,525
Here, they know about the guy.
557
00:27:40,525 --> 00:27:42,794
They had no idea. And Brian,
it was kind of funny.
558
00:27:42,794 --> 00:27:46,965
I didn't think about this, but, you know,
I met him at Castle Hot Springs,
559
00:27:46,965 --> 00:27:48,099
then led him to the point
560
00:27:48,099 --> 00:27:51,102
where you start hiking
and it's a rough hike to get in there.
561
00:27:51,302 --> 00:27:54,272
And after about a mile or so,
they're going,
562
00:27:54,272 --> 00:27:57,308
you know,
are you sure there's somebody back here?
563
00:27:57,308 --> 00:27:59,010
And they said, oh, yeah.
564
00:27:59,010 --> 00:28:01,980
And they said, well,
would you mind walking in front of us?
565
00:28:02,047 --> 00:28:04,783
They wanted
they wanted to keep an eye on me.
566
00:28:04,783 --> 00:28:07,018
They they just couldn't believe.
567
00:28:07,018 --> 00:28:09,387
They thought
maybe you were walking him into a.
568
00:28:09,387 --> 00:28:10,789
Trap or something.
569
00:28:10,789 --> 00:28:12,924
They just couldn't
believe anybody could live.
570
00:28:12,924 --> 00:28:15,260
I mean, because we came in from the North
Side, you're.
571
00:28:15,260 --> 00:28:19,631
You're scrambling over boulders,
climbing over cliffs, ledges.
572
00:28:19,631 --> 00:28:20,765
I mean, it's not easy.
573
00:28:20,765 --> 00:28:25,804
That's why he remained there, virtually
hidden from society for all those years.
574
00:28:25,804 --> 00:28:28,440
Amazing. Yeah. Cool story. Yeah.
575
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,310
And then when we got to the cabin, they,
they could see it.
576
00:28:32,310 --> 00:28:33,645
It was hard on me.
577
00:28:33,645 --> 00:28:35,480
And they saw that they were great.
578
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,549
They said, you just sit outside.
579
00:28:37,549 --> 00:28:38,883
We'll take care of the rest.
580
00:28:38,883 --> 00:28:41,986
And they carried them out
while they couldn't.
581
00:28:41,986 --> 00:28:43,988
A long line with the helicopter and and.
582
00:28:43,988 --> 00:28:46,925
Now, for some reason,
they did it this way.
583
00:28:46,925 --> 00:28:48,026
Wow. Yeah.
584
00:28:48,026 --> 00:28:49,627
Well, good for them. Yeah.
585
00:28:49,627 --> 00:28:52,764
And, did you ever visit
586
00:28:53,765 --> 00:28:55,266
the place after that?
587
00:28:55,266 --> 00:28:57,235
Yeah, yeah.
Take care of some of his stuff.
588
00:28:57,235 --> 00:29:00,171
Yeah I did,
I am so glad you asked that question.
589
00:29:00,171 --> 00:29:04,142
That's a great question because
it taught me a very important lesson.
590
00:29:04,375 --> 00:29:07,378
And again, this is with the benefit
of 2020 hindsight.
591
00:29:08,446 --> 00:29:11,716
While he was alive,
I thought this little area where he lived
592
00:29:11,716 --> 00:29:13,718
was, was Shangri-La.
593
00:29:13,718 --> 00:29:16,721
It was about the coolest place
it sounds. Oh.
594
00:29:17,055 --> 00:29:19,958
Just these met
the three different creeks converge.
595
00:29:19,958 --> 00:29:23,862
Dan there was a lot of water
and there were Indian petroglyphs.
596
00:29:23,862 --> 00:29:28,666
And then the initials of miners from,
you know, from the 1800s.
597
00:29:29,067 --> 00:29:32,070
And it was just alive. Yeah.
598
00:29:32,170 --> 00:29:34,773
But after he died, I went back
599
00:29:34,773 --> 00:29:39,244
and I spent a month in his cabin
by myself.
600
00:29:39,811 --> 00:29:42,981
And, I was working on stories about him.
601
00:29:43,615 --> 00:29:45,984
And over that month, it dawned on me that,
602
00:29:45,984 --> 00:29:49,621
yeah, it's a neat place,
but it was the human being.
603
00:29:49,988 --> 00:29:50,955
Yeah. It was.
604
00:29:50,955 --> 00:29:52,090
He brought so much.
605
00:29:52,090 --> 00:29:52,924
He brought it.
606
00:29:52,924 --> 00:29:54,559
He brought it to the table.
607
00:29:54,559 --> 00:29:56,961
But what a neat thing to to,
608
00:29:58,563 --> 00:30:02,100
envelop yourself in that world
to write about this.
609
00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:06,304
Yeah, yeah,
I really look for it, to look at it more.
610
00:30:06,304 --> 00:30:08,773
Yeah. Well, I was. So.
611
00:30:08,773 --> 00:30:10,208
Have you published any of that?
612
00:30:10,208 --> 00:30:14,579
No, just just a couple of articles and
and very local regional magazines,
613
00:30:14,579 --> 00:30:17,916
but not, the,
the manuscript that what I did
614
00:30:17,916 --> 00:30:22,053
when I went to the University of Utah
as an English major,
615
00:30:22,053 --> 00:30:25,323
and I convinced my professors
to allow me to go live
616
00:30:25,323 --> 00:30:28,760
near this Curley
and write stories about them.
617
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,896
And so I built myself a little encampment
across the ridge.
618
00:30:32,297 --> 00:30:35,500
And I remember,
I did that three different winters.
619
00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:38,903
And I remember thinking at times, Troy,
what's wrong with you?
620
00:30:39,270 --> 00:30:44,042
All your buddies are back at the you were
you skiing party and chasing girls.
621
00:30:44,042 --> 00:30:46,511
All the things you'd be dying to do.
622
00:30:46,511 --> 00:30:50,381
And you're sequestered out here with this
relic, this old miner.
623
00:30:50,381 --> 00:30:52,517
What the hell's wrong with you?
624
00:30:52,517 --> 00:30:56,154
And, you know, those thoughts
would come in and out of my mind. Oh.
625
00:30:56,221 --> 00:30:57,755
They had. Yeah, yeah.
626
00:30:57,755 --> 00:31:01,459
But now when I look back on it,
I wouldn't have traded that experience
627
00:31:01,726 --> 00:31:04,262
for any amount of money. Yeah.
628
00:31:04,262 --> 00:31:07,532
Now that that's the richest in the dollar
for sure.
629
00:31:07,532 --> 00:31:09,167
Yeah. Oh, fantastic.
630
00:31:09,167 --> 00:31:12,470
I look forward to digging deeper
into that story with you.
631
00:31:13,004 --> 00:31:16,774
Let's jump
back to the Arizona Trail or the
632
00:31:16,908 --> 00:31:20,645
the process is
can you share with us where,
633
00:31:21,980 --> 00:31:22,914
where my
634
00:31:22,914 --> 00:31:26,885
listeners can contribute
to that, process?
635
00:31:26,885 --> 00:31:29,587
Well, it would be the Arizona
Trail Association. Okay.
636
00:31:29,587 --> 00:31:33,658
And specifically the endowment
they have formed, the endowment,
637
00:31:33,658 --> 00:31:36,661
I think it's ceded, but
and that is something,
638
00:31:36,661 --> 00:31:40,031
you know, it costs a lot of money
each year to maintain the Arizona trail.
639
00:31:40,198 --> 00:31:40,565
Yeah.
640
00:31:40,565 --> 00:31:43,601
All the anything that's protected. Yes.
641
00:31:43,801 --> 00:31:47,605
It has to take it takes a upkeep. Yes.
642
00:31:47,605 --> 00:31:48,039
And you know what?
643
00:31:48,039 --> 00:31:52,410
I realized that the Arizona Trail
is removing the obstacles
644
00:31:52,410 --> 00:31:55,413
that my brother Gil and I faced nonstop.
645
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,751
You know, in terms of fences, they have
the lock arounds or the lock overs.
646
00:31:59,751 --> 00:32:00,652
Yeah. It's built.
647
00:32:00,652 --> 00:32:02,887
They're developing water. Yes.
648
00:32:02,887 --> 00:32:06,691
Developing water sources along the trail,
doing all the things
649
00:32:06,691 --> 00:32:09,160
that allow people today to do it.
650
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,562
In a, in a reasonably.
651
00:32:11,562 --> 00:32:14,565
Yes. Reasonable fashion. Yeah.
652
00:32:14,832 --> 00:32:17,168
You guys were definitely hard core.
653
00:32:17,168 --> 00:32:18,303
Well.
654
00:32:18,303 --> 00:32:19,137
As young.
655
00:32:19,137 --> 00:32:21,406
Yeah. You know,
I think at that age, you just do.
656
00:32:21,406 --> 00:32:23,141
You don't know any better, right?
657
00:32:24,309 --> 00:32:24,943
Oh, yeah.
658
00:32:24,943 --> 00:32:29,981
I, I completely hear what you're dodging
about because I was young and stupid.
659
00:32:29,981 --> 00:32:31,249
Yeah. It's
660
00:32:31,249 --> 00:32:32,417
fantastic.
661
00:32:32,417 --> 00:32:37,522
Thinking about the long term
salvation of such a thing.
662
00:32:37,522 --> 00:32:39,991
It's just like a national park
or a state.
663
00:32:39,991 --> 00:32:42,293
Park or, I. Think more so even.
664
00:32:42,293 --> 00:32:45,596
I think it's just vital for young people
to have these experiences
665
00:32:45,596 --> 00:32:47,632
out in the wilderness.
I know it was for me.
666
00:32:47,632 --> 00:32:48,199
Oh, young.
667
00:32:48,199 --> 00:32:51,135
It has helped me through my entire life.
668
00:32:51,135 --> 00:32:55,373
And in today's world, you know,
we have to preserve these trails.
669
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:55,940
You know?
670
00:32:55,940 --> 00:32:58,943
And I resemble
that remark somewhat myself.
671
00:32:58,943 --> 00:33:03,815
Let's talk a little bit about the Valley.
672
00:33:04,515 --> 00:33:07,518
I hope this is, just a okay,
673
00:33:07,518 --> 00:33:13,124
a little segue into another thing I'm
going to ask you, but the valley has grown
674
00:33:13,124 --> 00:33:17,228
since you and I were in the 70s
astronomically.
675
00:33:17,795 --> 00:33:19,764
And you're in the real estate business?
676
00:33:19,764 --> 00:33:23,501
Yes. Can you
can you give me some insight about,
677
00:33:24,902 --> 00:33:27,638
your vision of the Valley or
678
00:33:27,638 --> 00:33:31,909
your thoughts on the history of the valley
a little bit, because you're.
679
00:33:32,210 --> 00:33:34,479
Sure local bore? No. Right.
680
00:33:34,479 --> 00:33:37,682
And I spent more than 40 years
in the real estate business, so
681
00:33:37,682 --> 00:33:40,651
I'm somewhat, you know, it it,
682
00:33:41,285 --> 00:33:43,321
it's somewhat agonizing.
683
00:33:43,321 --> 00:33:46,357
Is not too strong a word to describe
to what I've seen happen
684
00:33:46,357 --> 00:33:48,393
to the valley of the sun,
the Phoenix Valley.
685
00:33:48,393 --> 00:33:51,362
It's just so big. Yet
I've been a part of that.
686
00:33:51,362 --> 00:33:52,096
Yeah.
687
00:33:52,096 --> 00:33:56,401
And so, you know,
I I'm a strong conservation
688
00:33:56,401 --> 00:34:00,872
preservationist, but I also do
believe in private property rights.
689
00:34:00,872 --> 00:34:04,509
And I do believe that there are
properties are pieces of land
690
00:34:04,509 --> 00:34:08,579
that are appropriate for development,
and there are others that are not.
691
00:34:09,047 --> 00:34:12,550
And that's that's
kind of shaped and guided my career.
692
00:34:13,084 --> 00:34:15,953
The other thing
that I've recognized in the Valley
693
00:34:15,953 --> 00:34:19,757
is the reason it's
the growth has been so explosive.
694
00:34:19,757 --> 00:34:22,860
Brian. People want what we had.
695
00:34:23,327 --> 00:34:26,330
They they want wide open spaces
696
00:34:26,397 --> 00:34:30,001
and the fresh air
and their sense of adventure.
697
00:34:30,368 --> 00:34:33,204
And so, you know, the way I, I
698
00:34:33,204 --> 00:34:36,240
somewhat justified it is I was sharing
699
00:34:36,240 --> 00:34:40,178
those experiences with people
that were coming into the valley.
700
00:34:40,678 --> 00:34:43,681
And now I live up in the Cave Creek area.
701
00:34:44,015 --> 00:34:48,519
And that reminds me a lot of Phoenix
as it was back in the 70s.
702
00:34:48,519 --> 00:34:49,954
Yeah, I can see that. Yeah.
703
00:34:51,089 --> 00:34:53,057
It's really nice up there, I
704
00:34:53,057 --> 00:34:55,960
will say to talk about it, but,
you know, if I drive an encounter,
705
00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:00,031
stop sign and there's another car there
that's a traffic jam.
706
00:35:00,198 --> 00:35:01,999
Yeah, exactly.
707
00:35:01,999 --> 00:35:05,870
So I kind of identify with that
just in my life
708
00:35:05,870 --> 00:35:10,374
as far as being a commercial river guide,
because the value of being
709
00:35:10,374 --> 00:35:15,646
in Grand Canyon, with few Redding
and a few and this, that and the other.
710
00:35:16,247 --> 00:35:16,581
Yeah.
711
00:35:16,581 --> 00:35:20,952
And and the best part of the wilderness
is the wilderness. Yes.
712
00:35:20,952 --> 00:35:22,920
And it isn't. It isn't the crowds.
713
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:27,458
It isn't the people, but the hypocrisy is
if you're a commercial river
714
00:35:27,458 --> 00:35:30,661
guide, you're bringing
those crowds of people to a degree.
715
00:35:31,529 --> 00:35:35,800
And what I've always felt like,
at least it's a controlled,
716
00:35:36,667 --> 00:35:40,071
visitation
that we provide to where we try
717
00:35:40,071 --> 00:35:43,407
and protect the place and do it
the right way.
718
00:35:43,574 --> 00:35:46,844
Yes, it's inevitable
that people are going to want to be there
719
00:35:46,844 --> 00:35:50,148
on a more and more basis
just by population growth.
720
00:35:50,748 --> 00:35:57,021
But it's, it's so important
to understand in your own heart
721
00:35:57,021 --> 00:36:00,958
there's this hypocrisy,
and it is something you have to deal with.
722
00:36:01,092 --> 00:36:04,829
And in a way, it's a parallel
to real estate
723
00:36:04,829 --> 00:36:08,432
in Phoenix, in a way,
because you see trail, like, you see.
724
00:36:08,733 --> 00:36:09,567
More.
725
00:36:09,567 --> 00:36:12,570
Backcountry impacts than you used to see.
726
00:36:12,603 --> 00:36:15,640
And,
so it kind of hits the bone a little bit
727
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,643
as to what's, what's my part in this road.
728
00:36:18,776 --> 00:36:19,677
Yeah, absolutely.
729
00:36:19,677 --> 00:36:21,812
I mean, we would go on
these great family picnics.
730
00:36:21,812 --> 00:36:23,347
Our mother and father would take us out.
731
00:36:23,347 --> 00:36:25,449
We go out in the desert and and picnic.
732
00:36:25,449 --> 00:36:28,219
And that's where Mayo Clinic is now,
on 128th Street.
733
00:36:28,219 --> 00:36:29,687
And Shane.
734
00:36:29,687 --> 00:36:31,956
I know the northern Grove.
735
00:36:31,956 --> 00:36:36,060
Yeah, but, they're the southern growth
now is phenomenal.
736
00:36:36,060 --> 00:36:36,661
Yeah.
737
00:36:36,661 --> 00:36:39,664
But, east and west, North and south.
738
00:36:39,864 --> 00:36:41,732
But the northern growth has been stunning.
739
00:36:41,732 --> 00:36:47,605
Like the the town of handsome
ten years ago was, strip mall.
740
00:36:47,738 --> 00:36:48,439
Right.
741
00:36:48,439 --> 00:36:50,942
And and now they've got three high schools
or whatever.
742
00:36:50,942 --> 00:36:52,877
I don't know what the deal is there.
743
00:36:52,877 --> 00:36:53,844
Well, phenomenal.
744
00:36:53,844 --> 00:36:54,712
It is phenomenal.
745
00:36:54,712 --> 00:36:57,782
Fortunately, the valley on the north side,
in the northeast side
746
00:36:57,782 --> 00:37:01,152
in particular, it's now butting up
against the Tunnel National Forest.
747
00:37:01,152 --> 00:37:03,988
So the really the growth
is coming to an end.
748
00:37:03,988 --> 00:37:06,991
I mean, there can be infill projects
and things like that.
749
00:37:06,991 --> 00:37:10,761
But the sprawl on the northeast
side of the valley is coming to an end.
750
00:37:10,761 --> 00:37:14,398
God. And I like
I say it's it's inevitable. Yes.
751
00:37:15,032 --> 00:37:17,101
What do you what are your feelings?
752
00:37:17,101 --> 00:37:18,936
And this is an interesting question.
753
00:37:18,936 --> 00:37:24,508
In my mind,
the whole watershed in the valley,
754
00:37:24,508 --> 00:37:27,912
I mean, they're Tappan, the aquifer.
755
00:37:28,512 --> 00:37:33,784
Do you have much knowledge
or feeling about where we're at with that?
756
00:37:33,784 --> 00:37:34,585
Our aquifer?
757
00:37:34,585 --> 00:37:38,222
Yeah, it's it's
the water in Arizona is very interesting.
758
00:37:38,222 --> 00:37:41,592
And so, you know,
if you look at who's using the water, it's
759
00:37:41,592 --> 00:37:45,196
something greater than 70% of
it is going to agriculture.
760
00:37:45,496 --> 00:37:51,469
So it's counterintuitive, but Phoenix's
water supply actually improves as it grows
761
00:37:51,469 --> 00:37:56,641
because lands that are used for,
farming cotton, short
762
00:37:56,641 --> 00:38:01,178
and long staple cotton are now converted
to residential subdivisions, and.
763
00:38:01,178 --> 00:38:03,614
Their consumption is less than. Ever.
764
00:38:03,614 --> 00:38:07,151
It's 8 to 16 times less per acre.
765
00:38:07,685 --> 00:38:08,953
That is interesting.
766
00:38:08,953 --> 00:38:14,191
Yes, a concept, but yeah,
agriculture is always number one. Yes.
767
00:38:14,425 --> 00:38:15,626
Consumer. Yes.
768
00:38:15,626 --> 00:38:19,930
But but but even having said that,
yeah I am concerned about it.
769
00:38:19,930 --> 00:38:22,233
I mean look
what's happening to the Colorado River.
770
00:38:22,233 --> 00:38:27,638
There's so many different straws in it
now that, I am, I'm very concerned about.
771
00:38:27,638 --> 00:38:28,039
Yeah.
772
00:38:28,039 --> 00:38:31,042
No, water is a huge subject.
773
00:38:31,709 --> 00:38:37,148
And that leads me to your boating
in Grand Canyon and beyond.
774
00:38:37,148 --> 00:38:37,448
You do.
775
00:38:37,448 --> 00:38:38,516
You did a 500.
776
00:38:38,516 --> 00:38:42,353
You've done 500 miles of of the Colorado.
777
00:38:42,386 --> 00:38:42,653
Yeah.
778
00:38:42,653 --> 00:38:47,458
Consecutive out of the green
we put in at Flaming Gorge in 1987.
779
00:38:47,458 --> 00:38:49,193
And we took out at height.
780
00:38:50,328 --> 00:38:51,162
That's really good.
781
00:38:51,162 --> 00:38:51,662
It was.
782
00:38:51,662 --> 00:38:53,698
It was just a fantastic trip.
783
00:38:53,698 --> 00:38:56,367
It was like a modern day Huckleberry Finn.
784
00:38:56,367 --> 00:38:58,869
Tom Sawyer, just my brother and me.
785
00:38:58,869 --> 00:39:03,374
Only thing missing
was it was, Oh, Doc Marston,
786
00:39:03,374 --> 00:39:07,211
I mean, the only thing missing was height
itself, right?
787
00:39:07,411 --> 00:39:08,846
Right, right.
788
00:39:08,846 --> 00:39:13,451
And again, you know, this predates
we didn't have any permitting issues.
789
00:39:13,751 --> 00:39:18,155
We had to if this is kind of a funny story
to two of them real quick,
790
00:39:18,656 --> 00:39:22,626
we had to get the permit
for Cataract Canyon, and we secured
791
00:39:22,626 --> 00:39:27,198
the permit in green River, Utah,
and we met with the ranger.
792
00:39:27,198 --> 00:39:30,701
She met us at the river, and she
793
00:39:31,535 --> 00:39:35,139
she said, well,
you you need to have an 18ft boat.
794
00:39:35,139 --> 00:39:38,342
And we were in a 14ft raft
set up as an oar boat.
795
00:39:38,776 --> 00:39:42,947
So while this lady continued to talk
to me, my brother ran in and grabbed
796
00:39:42,947 --> 00:39:47,885
the marker and scratched out
14 on the bow of the boat and wrote, 18.
797
00:39:48,619 --> 00:39:51,622
And. She laughed, and she laughed.
798
00:39:51,989 --> 00:39:54,392
And she. Laughed.
799
00:39:54,392 --> 00:39:57,194
And then the other thing,
and you know, this is probably not
800
00:39:57,194 --> 00:40:00,931
it's not appropriate now,
but you have to put it in context.
801
00:40:00,931 --> 00:40:03,200
It was 1987.
802
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,570
She said, well, everything checks out,
but where's your human waste
803
00:40:06,570 --> 00:40:08,305
disposal system?
804
00:40:08,305 --> 00:40:11,208
Gill, without missing a beat, goes, oh,
we have that.
805
00:40:11,208 --> 00:40:13,310
And she goes, well, I need to see it.
806
00:40:13,310 --> 00:40:18,282
And he brings out a glad sandwich
bag and she looks at. That
807
00:40:19,817 --> 00:40:22,820
and. He goes, well, we don't eat much.
808
00:40:23,454 --> 00:40:24,755
I want to meet your brother.
809
00:40:24,755 --> 00:40:26,757
Yeah, this guy's gotta get surgery.
810
00:40:26,757 --> 00:40:28,559
And she just said, yeah.
811
00:40:28,559 --> 00:40:30,961
She said, get out of here.
812
00:40:30,961 --> 00:40:32,530
Get out of here.
813
00:40:32,530 --> 00:40:35,366
You know the old Rangers up there in green
River?
814
00:40:35,366 --> 00:40:37,268
Pretty good.
815
00:40:37,268 --> 00:40:39,603
You know, the way a Ranger ought to be.
816
00:40:39,603 --> 00:40:41,972
Yeah, well,
we saw so few people on the river.
817
00:40:41,972 --> 00:40:45,009
I mean, we would go days on end
and not see anybody.
818
00:40:45,042 --> 00:40:45,709
Yeah.
819
00:40:45,709 --> 00:40:47,211
Yeah, absolutely.
820
00:40:47,211 --> 00:40:49,213
And, what time of year was it?
821
00:40:49,213 --> 00:40:51,949
What was the water running
when you ran to catch?
822
00:40:51,949 --> 00:40:52,983
It was low water.
823
00:40:52,983 --> 00:40:56,654
We, we,
we put in Flaming Gorge the end of August,
824
00:40:56,654 --> 00:40:59,657
and we reached a height on October 3rd.
825
00:41:00,357 --> 00:41:02,226
So basically the month of September.
826
00:41:02,226 --> 00:41:03,961
Yeah. No good on. Yeah.
827
00:41:03,961 --> 00:41:06,063
That's a great tour. Yeah. It was, it was.
828
00:41:06,063 --> 00:41:07,231
It was great to me.
829
00:41:07,231 --> 00:41:10,668
Being in Leverett Canyon
sleeping on sandbars there again.
830
00:41:10,668 --> 00:41:12,269
There was no one there.
831
00:41:12,269 --> 00:41:14,538
Yeah. No, I, I get it, I get it.
832
00:41:14,538 --> 00:41:16,106
That's, really cool.
833
00:41:16,106 --> 00:41:19,009
And if you guys that are listening,
pull out a map.
834
00:41:19,009 --> 00:41:22,346
It's a pretty amazing region
that we're talking about.
835
00:41:22,413 --> 00:41:24,882
And what an adventure.
836
00:41:24,882 --> 00:41:26,083
On its own. Right.
837
00:41:27,751 --> 00:41:29,253
There's so much talk right now
838
00:41:29,253 --> 00:41:32,323
about the Colorado River drought.
839
00:41:33,657 --> 00:41:36,794
There's so much going on with the dams
that are there.
840
00:41:36,794 --> 00:41:40,464
There's so much going on
with the reservoirs themselves.
841
00:41:41,999 --> 00:41:43,901
It's an interesting conversation
842
00:41:43,901 --> 00:41:46,904
in a lot of different directions.
843
00:41:47,071 --> 00:41:51,709
And I'm worried about the water,
being a river runner below the dam.
844
00:41:51,909 --> 00:41:54,478
Of course, that's of concern.
845
00:41:54,478 --> 00:41:59,550
Or or I'm not too worried about them
not being able to make electricity, but,
846
00:42:00,284 --> 00:42:03,988
you know, it's hard not to worry about
how much water comes through there.
847
00:42:04,622 --> 00:42:10,261
Luckily, we, have put some dams down,
you know, some projects.
848
00:42:10,261 --> 00:42:13,531
And like, the Little Colorado
Dam project was the most heinous
849
00:42:13,898 --> 00:42:16,800
right thing I've seen.
850
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:17,268
Yeah.
851
00:42:17,268 --> 00:42:17,535
Yeah.
852
00:42:17,535 --> 00:42:20,538
Who could who dreamed up these things now?
853
00:42:20,804 --> 00:42:25,342
Like, if anybody that seen to call it
Little Colorado wanted to run a mud.
854
00:42:25,943 --> 00:42:26,911
It's thick.
855
00:42:26,911 --> 00:42:29,647
It's like a slurry. Right.
856
00:42:29,647 --> 00:42:31,415
Like when it hits you in the face
857
00:42:31,415 --> 00:42:35,786
if you're boating and it's like somebody
throwing wet cement on you.
858
00:42:35,786 --> 00:42:36,186
Yeah. Yeah.
859
00:42:36,186 --> 00:42:38,822
And how long would those dams be
860
00:42:40,057 --> 00:42:41,959
before they filled up with sediment.
861
00:42:41,959 --> 00:42:44,562
You know, I mean,
because they're small enough reservoirs.
862
00:42:44,562 --> 00:42:47,965
I mean, it's just
it was a heinous thing, but,
863
00:42:48,299 --> 00:42:51,235
you listeners fight every dam
you hear about.
864
00:42:51,235 --> 00:42:52,503
That's what I've got to say.
865
00:42:52,503 --> 00:42:55,172
Almira.
866
00:42:55,172 --> 00:42:57,308
We're going to move on
867
00:42:57,308 --> 00:43:00,277
to, a really cool thing
868
00:43:00,277 --> 00:43:04,281
that I've just learned about,
that you and your brother partook
869
00:43:04,281 --> 00:43:08,686
in is actually absolutely a phenomenal
a big adventure.
870
00:43:08,886 --> 00:43:13,357
And it's to that end,
can we kind of just with
871
00:43:14,858 --> 00:43:18,662
a reasonable amount of time
that it'll take you to,
872
00:43:18,662 --> 00:43:22,433
talk about these three journeys and,
873
00:43:22,433 --> 00:43:26,470
I'm excited about an upcoming book
874
00:43:26,470 --> 00:43:30,874
that you've written and,
I don't know the large time of that,
875
00:43:30,874 --> 00:43:34,745
but I'm lucky enough to have a draft copy,
here.
876
00:43:34,745 --> 00:43:39,350
And it's it could be the whole show,
from what I can see.
877
00:43:39,550 --> 00:43:40,784
The to bat thing.
878
00:43:40,784 --> 00:43:45,089
Are you, energetic enough to kind of
fill us in on this?
879
00:43:45,122 --> 00:43:46,423
Oh, for sure.
880
00:43:46,423 --> 00:43:46,957
For sure.
881
00:43:46,957 --> 00:43:50,828
It's it's funny, Brian, it's it's it's
great to be this age to
882
00:43:50,828 --> 00:43:52,262
to look back and reflect.
883
00:43:52,262 --> 00:43:57,267
But I realize now that all these outdoor
events, including rafting, the green River
884
00:43:57,267 --> 00:43:58,569
and all the other rafting trips
885
00:43:58,569 --> 00:44:02,740
we did, led us up to this series
of three trips to Tibet.
886
00:44:03,240 --> 00:44:08,145
They were in 1994, 1995 and 1997.
887
00:44:08,646 --> 00:44:13,651
What I like best
is that, my younger brother, Todd
888
00:44:13,651 --> 00:44:18,856
joined us on the 95 trip,
and it was very fortuitous that he did.
889
00:44:18,856 --> 00:44:20,524
I'll tell you about that in a minute.
890
00:44:20,524 --> 00:44:23,761
But it's all three of us
were there on that trip.
891
00:44:23,761 --> 00:44:26,897
But basically what happened
is a guy from Tucson,
892
00:44:26,897 --> 00:44:30,000
Arizona,
who's no longer with us, Rick Fisher.
893
00:44:30,300 --> 00:44:34,405
He described himself as the world's
greatest canyon year,
894
00:44:34,705 --> 00:44:38,142
and he wanted to prove
that the your long song, Paul Gorge
895
00:44:38,742 --> 00:44:41,578
in southeastern Tibet
was the deepest canyon in the world.
896
00:44:41,578 --> 00:44:46,183
He had read a newspaper article about Gil
and me floating down the green River,
897
00:44:46,350 --> 00:44:50,087
and he realized that the easiest way
in, he thought to
898
00:44:50,087 --> 00:44:54,091
to make measurements of this gorge
was on a raft on the river.
899
00:44:54,358 --> 00:44:57,261
So he contacted us and asked us
900
00:44:57,261 --> 00:45:00,264
if we would go along
and transport him down.
901
00:45:00,397 --> 00:45:02,733
So he could make these measurements.
902
00:45:03,834 --> 00:45:05,502
And I was, I got gigs like.
903
00:45:05,502 --> 00:45:07,171
Oh, it was unbelievable.
904
00:45:07,171 --> 00:45:10,441
The problem was the Chinese government
at the time, because that river had never
905
00:45:10,441 --> 00:45:13,444
been run, wanted $1 million
for the permit to run it.
906
00:45:13,711 --> 00:45:18,248
Well, we didn't have $1 million, but
we had a 12ft paddle raft that we smuggled
907
00:45:18,248 --> 00:45:25,022
in, and it was absolutely the wrong boat
to have when we put on that water.
908
00:45:25,022 --> 00:45:26,757
Well, to give you an idea.
909
00:45:26,757 --> 00:45:33,063
So the Colorado River through the Grand
Canyon drops what, 8 to 9ft per mile?
910
00:45:33,063 --> 00:45:36,066
That's called the yard long song Po,
911
00:45:36,166 --> 00:45:39,503
which is larger in volume than the Ohio
River.
912
00:45:40,070 --> 00:45:44,675
Wow. Drops between 70 and 80ft per mile.
913
00:45:44,675 --> 00:45:45,542
Oh my goodness.
914
00:45:45,542 --> 00:45:47,611
Yeah. That's, it's. A death sentence.
915
00:45:47,611 --> 00:45:47,811
Yeah.
916
00:45:47,811 --> 00:45:48,312
In fact,
917
00:45:48,312 --> 00:45:52,750
it killed that river, killed Douglas
Gordon, who was the captain of the U.S.
918
00:45:52,750 --> 00:45:56,520
Olympic team
just a couple of years after we got back.
919
00:45:56,687 --> 00:46:00,190
So, anyway, to make a long story short,
we got on the river in 94.
920
00:46:00,524 --> 00:46:04,762
Put in, we we, put in
what's called today, Granite Gorge.
921
00:46:04,762 --> 00:46:05,362
That's not,
922
00:46:05,362 --> 00:46:09,900
of course, the indigenous name,
but it's what it's being referred to now.
923
00:46:10,234 --> 00:46:13,504
And within minutes,
we realized we were so far.
924
00:46:13,504 --> 00:46:15,205
Yeah. For your energy up, the.
925
00:46:15,205 --> 00:46:16,573
Water behaved differently.
926
00:46:16,573 --> 00:46:19,009
It's oxygenated differently
because it's so high.
927
00:46:19,009 --> 00:46:21,378
So we abandoned the boats and walked out.
928
00:46:21,378 --> 00:46:24,548
It turned into an every man
for himself survival situation.
929
00:46:25,783 --> 00:46:29,353
And we
got up we when we got back to Lhasa,
930
00:46:29,353 --> 00:46:32,856
where there was one phone,
we were telling our story.
931
00:46:33,323 --> 00:46:34,391
And it's kind of funny.
932
00:46:34,391 --> 00:46:37,327
You have no privacy
when you're on the phone because there are
933
00:46:37,327 --> 00:46:41,632
others lined up behind you
who are waiting their turn to call out.
934
00:46:42,032 --> 00:46:45,135
And when we got off the phone,
these two guys, the American guy
935
00:46:45,169 --> 00:46:47,671
said, hey,
we couldn't help but overhear you.
936
00:46:47,671 --> 00:46:50,007
How on earth did you get into this area?
937
00:46:50,007 --> 00:46:55,245
We're Buddhist scholars, and we've been
trying to get into this area for years.
938
00:46:55,245 --> 00:46:59,449
And, so we
they invited us to come on an expedition
939
00:46:59,449 --> 00:47:03,687
with them in 95 to, circle me
ambulate this
940
00:47:04,288 --> 00:47:07,925
spiritual mountain, the sacred mountain
Kunduz, does some patron.
941
00:47:08,225 --> 00:47:13,130
And so we invited our younger brother,
Todd, and we took off on that trip.
942
00:47:13,130 --> 00:47:15,666
That to give you an idea
how remote this area is.
943
00:47:15,666 --> 00:47:18,936
When you fly into Lhasa,
you get into a jeep
944
00:47:18,936 --> 00:47:22,172
and you're on a four wheel drive
jeep road for a week.
945
00:47:22,739 --> 00:47:26,643
Then you climb over various passes,
in this case
946
00:47:26,643 --> 00:47:29,646
the Sioux Law Pass or Law Pass,
947
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,783
and you enter into an area called Bamako.
948
00:47:34,051 --> 00:47:35,552
It is like I've I've
949
00:47:35,552 --> 00:47:39,456
never trucked on acid,
but it's what I would think that is like.
950
00:47:39,456 --> 00:47:41,391
It is the weirdest thing you've ever seen.
951
00:47:41,391 --> 00:47:45,262
It's a giant rain swamp and I mean you.
952
00:47:45,429 --> 00:47:50,000
The clouds will open and all of a sudden
you'll you'll look up and there's Norm
953
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,136
Shibata at 20, 21,000ft or no,
954
00:47:53,136 --> 00:47:57,574
25,000ft tall,
you know, engaging the jet stream.
955
00:47:57,574 --> 00:48:00,410
But you're in this jungle at 13,000.
956
00:48:00,410 --> 00:48:01,511
Amazing, amazing.
957
00:48:01,511 --> 00:48:03,580
There's just there's waterfalls
everywhere.
958
00:48:03,580 --> 00:48:06,483
They're tigers. It's
just a strange area. So.
959
00:48:06,483 --> 00:48:09,486
So we were on this circuit
for about a month,
960
00:48:09,786 --> 00:48:12,789
and the three of us just Todd,
961
00:48:13,090 --> 00:48:17,628
my brother
Gil and me got sick, sicker than dogs,
962
00:48:18,061 --> 00:48:22,766
and it turned into a ever,
every man for himself.
963
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,169
Fortunately, I had brothers with me,
964
00:48:26,169 --> 00:48:30,540
and we were very fortunate, Brian,
that of the three of us, usually
965
00:48:31,541 --> 00:48:32,576
there was never a time when
966
00:48:32,576 --> 00:48:35,612
all three of us
were completely down in capacity.
967
00:48:35,612 --> 00:48:38,115
Yeah. So the other two could help out.
968
00:48:38,115 --> 00:48:40,784
I mean, without them,
I wouldn't have made it back.
969
00:48:40,784 --> 00:48:42,920
And I think they would tell you the same.
970
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:44,154
Yeah. Wild, wild.
971
00:48:44,154 --> 00:48:45,856
You don't think about it. Yeah.
972
00:48:45,856 --> 00:48:49,826
So it was a trip
that where everything could go bad. Did.
973
00:48:50,761 --> 00:48:55,832
So then I don't know why,
but we agreed to go back in 1997.
974
00:48:55,832 --> 00:48:58,835
Todd opted out of this trip smartly.
975
00:48:59,136 --> 00:49:00,837
No thanks. Yeah.
976
00:49:00,837 --> 00:49:04,741
And what we realized happened
was there's also
977
00:49:05,108 --> 00:49:09,146
cartographers knew that somewhere
on the yuan song boat, there had to be
978
00:49:09,146 --> 00:49:14,184
a big waterfall greater than 100ft,
but had never been found.
979
00:49:14,451 --> 00:49:17,054
It's because that area is so difficult
to get into.
980
00:49:17,054 --> 00:49:21,892
And you arrived at that just from
the declination, to avoid topography.
981
00:49:22,292 --> 00:49:23,593
Exactly. They're looking at.
982
00:49:23,593 --> 00:49:27,030
Okay, here's the river called the online
sun Po in China.
983
00:49:27,030 --> 00:49:30,500
It swings around the great bend
of the Himalayan, becomes the Brahmaputra.
984
00:49:30,767 --> 00:49:34,438
But it's dropping so fast
there has to be a big fall.
985
00:49:34,738 --> 00:49:38,842
And the British had searched for it
for about 150 years.
986
00:49:38,842 --> 00:49:39,409
I mean, there's a whole
987
00:49:39,409 --> 00:49:43,480
nother story about that and the lives
that were lost trying to find it.
988
00:49:43,814 --> 00:49:44,915
Well, what
989
00:49:44,915 --> 00:49:49,319
Gill and I didn't realize at the time
is the guys that we had met in Tibet,
990
00:49:49,319 --> 00:49:54,424
they were looking for it and they
they let us know about it, but they were
991
00:49:54,458 --> 00:49:58,395
they underplayed it to us
and we just didn't know
992
00:49:58,829 --> 00:50:02,632
really what a valuable find that would be.
993
00:50:02,899 --> 00:50:08,638
So anyway, we go back in 97
and we get off the plane and I smell
994
00:50:08,638 --> 00:50:13,343
all those smells and we, we do the week
long drive and we start hiking
995
00:50:13,710 --> 00:50:17,914
and I pull Gil aside and I said, Gil,
I, I don't I can't do this again.
996
00:50:18,382 --> 00:50:22,386
I don't I'm going to what I you know,
I'm just going to take off on my own
997
00:50:22,652 --> 00:50:24,955
and I'll meet you guys 30 days
from now on.
998
00:50:24,955 --> 00:50:29,693
This little town called Palam,
where we were to meet the jeeps.
999
00:50:30,093 --> 00:50:33,063
And he goes, Troy,
I feel the same damn way.
Speaker:
00:50:33,063 --> 00:50:36,633
So we essentially left the group
and it was an amicable
Speaker:
00:50:36,633 --> 00:50:39,770
parting of the ways,
but it had serious ramifications.
Speaker:
00:50:40,237 --> 00:50:42,272
But we found out about later.
Speaker:
00:50:42,272 --> 00:50:47,010
Like traveling in eastern Tibet
without permits that got us in jail.
Speaker:
00:50:47,010 --> 00:50:47,611
But anyway,
Speaker:
00:50:49,012 --> 00:50:50,380
the 97 trip
Speaker:
00:50:50,380 --> 00:50:53,383
where at where everything could go right?
Speaker:
00:50:53,450 --> 00:50:58,755
It did, and is as if led
by the hands of some providence.
Speaker:
00:50:59,189 --> 00:51:03,727
We climbed up to a mountain ridge
at about 19,000ft.
Speaker:
00:51:04,027 --> 00:51:04,928
The clouds are behind.
Speaker:
00:51:04,928 --> 00:51:09,533
We're watching a lightning storm below us,
and all of a sudden the clouds part.
Speaker:
00:51:09,533 --> 00:51:12,436
And there's this waterfall on the yard.
Long song. POW!
Speaker:
00:51:12,436 --> 00:51:13,870
Oh, wow.
Speaker:
00:51:13,870 --> 00:51:15,672
Not amazing. Through the clouds.
Speaker:
00:51:15,672 --> 00:51:16,807
Through the clouds.
Speaker:
00:51:16,807 --> 00:51:19,810
And so we spent two days hiking down
to get
Speaker:
00:51:19,843 --> 00:51:21,845
to it,
to where we could get pictures of it.
Speaker:
00:51:21,845 --> 00:51:25,048
And it's it's a really a unique
geologic function.
Speaker:
00:51:25,048 --> 00:51:26,750
The river double back on itself.
Speaker:
00:51:26,750 --> 00:51:28,785
Now, remember the size of the Ohio.
Speaker:
00:51:28,785 --> 00:51:29,953
Yeah. No, it's a huge.
Speaker:
00:51:29,953 --> 00:51:32,889
It's a huge river
and it's in this tight little
Speaker:
00:51:32,889 --> 00:51:36,426
I mean the your unsung power
will never be run completely.
Speaker:
00:51:36,426 --> 00:51:37,894
You just can't do it.
Speaker:
00:51:37,894 --> 00:51:39,029
Right? Right. No.
Speaker:
00:51:39,029 --> 00:51:40,564
It sounds like one of those.
Speaker:
00:51:40,564 --> 00:51:41,398
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:
00:51:41,398 --> 00:51:43,900
So that's what these
that's what this book is about.
Speaker:
00:51:43,900 --> 00:51:49,573
It's a story about these three trips
and basically how we just got punished
Speaker:
00:51:49,573 --> 00:51:54,177
in trips one and two, punished badly,
you know, humiliated, humbled.
Speaker:
00:51:54,744 --> 00:51:59,082
And finally,
when we let go of all of that stuff, like,
Speaker:
00:51:59,116 --> 00:52:01,418
we're going to conquer
this, we're going to
Speaker:
00:52:01,418 --> 00:52:03,987
when we let go of all of that
and we're just trying to get the hell out.
Speaker:
00:52:03,987 --> 00:52:06,123
The old thirds, the germ.
Speaker:
00:52:06,123 --> 00:52:08,024
Yeah, we ran right into it.
Speaker:
00:52:08,024 --> 00:52:09,292
That's so awesome.
Speaker:
00:52:09,292 --> 00:52:12,295
And what sort of ramifications did
Speaker:
00:52:12,562 --> 00:52:15,665
people finding out about your discovery?
Speaker:
00:52:15,665 --> 00:52:18,235
Well,
the the Chinese weren't happy about it.
Speaker:
00:52:18,235 --> 00:52:23,073
And, you know, if you say discovery,
I mean, they're indigenous people
Speaker:
00:52:23,073 --> 00:52:25,942
that live there. So people knew about it.
Speaker:
00:52:25,942 --> 00:52:30,280
But we we were perhaps one of
the first of Westerners that ever saw it.
Speaker:
00:52:30,747 --> 00:52:35,318
But what happened to us is in in Tibet,
Speaker:
00:52:35,485 --> 00:52:39,356
you know, you have to be traveling
with a, communist.
Speaker:
00:52:39,689 --> 00:52:41,158
It's called Public Security Bureau.
Speaker:
00:52:41,158 --> 00:52:44,161
PSB officer and we weren't.
Speaker:
00:52:44,327 --> 00:52:46,296
And so we were turned in by someone.
Speaker:
00:52:46,296 --> 00:52:50,400
Someone ratted us out, and we were
arrested and taken to this compound.
Speaker:
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:52,736
Well,
when we were thrown into the compound,
Speaker:
00:52:52,736 --> 00:52:55,839
there was the rest of our group
that we originally started with.
Speaker:
00:52:56,006 --> 00:52:58,909
They also had been arrested
because they were
Speaker:
00:52:58,909 --> 00:53:01,912
in a, a military district
they shouldn't have been in.
Speaker:
00:53:02,145 --> 00:53:06,383
So what happened while in the beginning
I felt though that no problem.
Speaker:
00:53:06,383 --> 00:53:07,617
You know, we'll get out of this
Speaker:
00:53:08,618 --> 00:53:09,152
as they
Speaker:
00:53:09,152 --> 00:53:12,956
started explaining to me
through their eyes here, you know,
Speaker:
00:53:12,956 --> 00:53:16,092
they knew through our passport
we had been there three times.
Speaker:
00:53:16,092 --> 00:53:19,095
Why are you guys coming back to this area?
Speaker:
00:53:19,162 --> 00:53:22,766
So they sequestered us
and made us write down wherever
Speaker:
00:53:22,766 --> 00:53:27,270
we had stayed each night on that,
you know, more than a month long trip.
Speaker:
00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:29,172
Well, we're on the middle of nowhere.
Speaker:
00:53:29,172 --> 00:53:31,174
I couldn't I couldn't fill it out.
Speaker:
00:53:31,174 --> 00:53:35,011
So all of a sudden we started
looking really, really suspicious.
Speaker:
00:53:35,812 --> 00:53:36,279
And in the.
Speaker:
00:53:36,279 --> 00:53:37,514
Oh, boy, yeah.
Speaker:
00:53:37,514 --> 00:53:40,050
Oh, boy. In the end. In the end.
What what?
Speaker:
00:53:40,050 --> 00:53:44,221
They were concerned
that we were taking photographs
Speaker:
00:53:44,221 --> 00:53:47,724
of the undersides of these bamboo bridges
that span the yard.
Speaker:
00:53:47,724 --> 00:53:48,291
Long song.
Speaker:
00:53:48,291 --> 00:53:52,395
Po, if you were to destroy those bridges,
you would essentially cut off
Speaker:
00:53:52,395 --> 00:53:54,097
any type of trade between.
Speaker:
00:53:54,097 --> 00:53:55,232
It would cripple. You.
Speaker:
00:53:55,232 --> 00:53:57,167
Yeah, and that's that.
Speaker:
00:53:57,167 --> 00:54:01,137
We finally figured that out, and money
got us out of it.
Speaker:
00:54:01,538 --> 00:54:03,540
The beloved. Oh. Yeah,
Speaker:
00:54:05,041 --> 00:54:06,009
I know.
Speaker:
00:54:06,009 --> 00:54:08,278
Let's talk about the bridges
just for a second.
Speaker:
00:54:08,278 --> 00:54:11,581
Those must be fantastic constructed
Speaker:
00:54:11,581 --> 00:54:14,551
things going across this massive river
that.
Speaker:
00:54:14,684 --> 00:54:19,422
Yeah, they are, you know,
that they would get, pack train bamboo.
Speaker:
00:54:19,689 --> 00:54:21,091
They were bamboo.
Speaker:
00:54:21,091 --> 00:54:25,161
And, we had some,
you know, art adventure.
Speaker:
00:54:25,161 --> 00:54:28,865
We had some cables that you would,
they would tie
Speaker:
00:54:28,865 --> 00:54:32,168
you up and put a rope around
you tied to your waist.
Speaker:
00:54:32,168 --> 00:54:32,569
And you would.
Speaker:
00:54:32,569 --> 00:54:35,338
It was like a zip line,
like a precursor to a zip line.
Speaker:
00:54:35,338 --> 00:54:35,972
The only problem.
Speaker:
00:54:35,972 --> 00:54:38,341
Oh, yeah. A lot less comfortable.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:
00:54:38,341 --> 00:54:42,779
And God forbid if something happened,
I mean, you wouldn't have a prayer done.
Speaker:
00:54:43,313 --> 00:54:45,882
You have probably a pretty long zipper.
Speaker:
00:54:45,882 --> 00:54:46,416
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:54:46,416 --> 00:54:48,151
And Brian, it was really it was so great
Speaker:
00:54:48,151 --> 00:54:51,221
because there are these indigenous people,
the mummers and the Lopez.
Speaker:
00:54:51,488 --> 00:54:55,392
If the, if the, the women that would see
us, they would just sit down
Speaker:
00:54:55,392 --> 00:54:56,726
and start chanting.
Speaker:
00:54:56,726 --> 00:54:58,495
The men would throw down their tools.
Speaker:
00:54:58,495 --> 00:55:01,498
They were usually plowing fields
or something and run away.
Speaker:
00:55:01,498 --> 00:55:03,600
I mean, we were this was early.
Speaker:
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:04,134
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:55:04,134 --> 00:55:06,002
You were high impact visibility.
Speaker:
00:55:06,002 --> 00:55:08,305
Yeah. Oh, how fast it was.
Speaker:
00:55:08,305 --> 00:55:11,541
And we would hit these little villages
that were like Swiss Family Robinson.
Speaker:
00:55:11,541 --> 00:55:14,511
They would have these amazing
aqueduct system
Speaker:
00:55:14,511 --> 00:55:18,315
that would take water from the forest
and run them through these bamboo shoots.
Speaker:
00:55:18,315 --> 00:55:23,653
So the they essentially had water spinning
water wheels to turn a prayer wheel.
Speaker:
00:55:23,987 --> 00:55:26,222
And, you know, there was no electricity,
of course.
Speaker:
00:55:26,222 --> 00:55:29,492
And no, no water, like,
we know water like.
Speaker:
00:55:29,793 --> 00:55:30,860
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker:
00:55:30,860 --> 00:55:32,996
That sounds just yeah, fascinating.
Speaker:
00:55:32,996 --> 00:55:36,366
And it's really unfortunate because
they're they've all been moved out there.
Speaker:
00:55:36,633 --> 00:55:40,270
The Chinese just recently have reported
that they're going to dam the yard
Speaker:
00:55:40,270 --> 00:55:41,504
long song Po.
Speaker:
00:55:41,504 --> 00:55:43,239
Yeah. That's what I was going to ask you.
Speaker:
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:44,341
Yeah, it's.
Speaker:
00:55:44,341 --> 00:55:47,277
Synth since this is the 80s.
Speaker:
00:55:47,277 --> 00:55:51,181
Because the Chinese get things done.
Speaker:
00:55:51,181 --> 00:55:52,682
Say what you will.
Speaker:
00:55:52,682 --> 00:55:56,653
There, there, where, where we were
now there are highways.
Speaker:
00:55:57,587 --> 00:55:59,723
I mean it is amazing.
Speaker:
00:55:59,723 --> 00:56:01,224
Yeah. They do get things done.
Speaker:
00:56:01,224 --> 00:56:03,493
They do, they get things done.
Speaker:
00:56:03,493 --> 00:56:07,864
When you were in the villages
and when you were in places,
Speaker:
00:56:07,864 --> 00:56:12,569
were you
well treated by the people, well accepted.
Speaker:
00:56:12,569 --> 00:56:13,036
Were they
Speaker:
00:56:14,070 --> 00:56:15,772
or were, you.
Speaker:
00:56:15,772 --> 00:56:18,074
Know,
that they're. Treated with suspicion.
Speaker:
00:56:18,074 --> 00:56:19,342
We were so.
Speaker:
00:56:19,342 --> 00:56:22,779
So these are Chinese occupy
occupied villages.
Speaker:
00:56:22,779 --> 00:56:24,948
So the Tibetans were great.
Speaker:
00:56:24,948 --> 00:56:30,453
The other thing we did is we smuggled
in color photographs of the Dalai Lama,
Speaker:
00:56:30,453 --> 00:56:34,424
which was probably stupid,
but you hand one of those cards
Speaker:
00:56:34,424 --> 00:56:38,461
to a Tibetan,
and it's like you just gave them $500,000.
Speaker:
00:56:38,461 --> 00:56:40,597
They will do anything for you.
Speaker:
00:56:40,597 --> 00:56:42,866
So how interesting. Yeah.
Speaker:
00:56:42,866 --> 00:56:47,036
So we were treated with contempt
by the Chinese,
Speaker:
00:56:47,871 --> 00:56:51,508
and in fact, we had a
we had a time where we were in this little
Speaker:
00:56:51,608 --> 00:56:55,712
frontier town called Mad Dog,
and we were told, you know, our that
Speaker:
00:56:56,913 --> 00:56:59,816
we had these Sherpas
that were familiar with this area.
Speaker:
00:56:59,816 --> 00:57:04,421
And he said, you know,
whatever you do, don't take any pictures.
Speaker:
00:57:04,621 --> 00:57:07,657
Well, I waited till dark
and I went out with, my camera
Speaker:
00:57:07,657 --> 00:57:10,660
on a tripod, and I started photographing
some night shots,
Speaker:
00:57:10,794 --> 00:57:14,764
and this drunk Chinese officer came up
and was screaming at me.
Speaker:
00:57:14,764 --> 00:57:17,033
And trying to pull my camera away.
Speaker:
00:57:17,033 --> 00:57:20,837
And then in the ensuing tug of war,
he fell down.
Speaker:
00:57:21,137 --> 00:57:25,341
So I grabbed the camera and I just ran
back to where we were, went to bed.
Speaker:
00:57:25,608 --> 00:57:29,913
Well, we were in this little wooden
compound cabin.
Speaker:
00:57:30,246 --> 00:57:34,818
Well,
half hour later, the PSB charge and this,
Speaker:
00:57:35,251 --> 00:57:38,655
this guy was in charge of this village.
Speaker:
00:57:39,022 --> 00:57:42,292
And there were all these 17 year
old Chinese guys shirtless,
Speaker:
00:57:42,292 --> 00:57:46,863
with AK 47, wanting to shoot us,
and they couldn't.
Speaker:
00:57:46,863 --> 00:57:47,897
It was kind of funny.
Speaker:
00:57:47,897 --> 00:57:50,300
They couldn't tell who it was.
Speaker:
00:57:50,300 --> 00:57:53,603
He couldn't tell me apart from my brother
Gill or my brother Todd.
Speaker:
00:57:53,837 --> 00:57:57,373
But it was scary because you could tell
they wanted this thing to.
Speaker:
00:57:57,373 --> 00:57:58,675
Escalate into your fingers.
Speaker:
00:57:59,876 --> 00:58:02,045
And so we we took a camera
Speaker:
00:58:02,045 --> 00:58:06,149
and we opened up the camera back, pulled
out all the film, exposed it to the light,
Speaker:
00:58:06,349 --> 00:58:11,054
apologized to this guy over and over
and again, you know, we had a translator.
Speaker:
00:58:11,421 --> 00:58:15,391
And so,
you know, we defuzed that situation.
Speaker:
00:58:15,391 --> 00:58:18,394
We had probably with a little money
to, you.
Speaker:
00:58:18,394 --> 00:58:22,765
Know, that one, that one was that one
didn't require the money, but we, we,
Speaker:
00:58:22,932 --> 00:58:25,602
we got we got to
you had to. Bring their shells to their.
Speaker:
00:58:25,602 --> 00:58:28,605
Yeah. Yeah. Wild. Wild stuff.
Speaker:
00:58:29,138 --> 00:58:31,441
And so after that.
Speaker:
00:58:31,441 --> 00:58:33,009
Third.
Speaker:
00:58:33,009 --> 00:58:36,012
And triumphant trip,
Speaker:
00:58:36,513 --> 00:58:37,413
two things.
Speaker:
00:58:37,413 --> 00:58:41,050
How long did that third effort it was.
Speaker:
00:58:41,117 --> 00:58:42,352
How long were you over there?
Speaker:
00:58:42,352 --> 00:58:45,255
It was a, well,
probably a month and a half.
Speaker:
00:58:45,255 --> 00:58:47,624
We were out in the field about a month.
Speaker:
00:58:47,624 --> 00:58:49,359
But by the travel time.
Speaker:
00:58:49,359 --> 00:58:50,260
You have to travel.
Speaker:
00:58:50,260 --> 00:58:52,795
And just that alone
must have been quite something.
Speaker:
00:58:52,795 --> 00:58:53,763
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:58:53,763 --> 00:58:56,966
Now, when you flew into the country,
Speaker:
00:58:56,966 --> 00:59:01,971
what sort of walls did
you have to pass through going into China?
Speaker:
00:59:01,971 --> 00:59:05,475
Well, that's back in the day
where China was the sleeping giant.
Speaker:
00:59:05,542 --> 00:59:06,643
Oh, yeah.
Speaker:
00:59:06,643 --> 00:59:09,679
No. And and, Yeah, I'm. Still.
Speaker:
00:59:09,679 --> 00:59:11,080
I'm sure of it. Right.
Speaker:
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:13,883
But no, it was a
whole different program. And,
Speaker:
00:59:15,485 --> 00:59:17,353
now we, you know, we had permits.
Speaker:
00:59:17,353 --> 00:59:18,588
We secured permits.
Speaker:
00:59:18,588 --> 00:59:21,224
So we got that wasn't really a problem.
Speaker:
00:59:21,224 --> 00:59:25,361
But again, you had to be with
what they called a public security bureau,
Speaker:
00:59:25,762 --> 00:59:28,565
liaison that traveled with you
Speaker:
00:59:28,565 --> 00:59:31,568
everywhere and, and watched you. So.
Speaker:
00:59:31,568 --> 00:59:34,571
And and did you have any sort of rapport
with that
Speaker:
00:59:35,071 --> 00:59:39,442
liaison or did it
was it a kind of a real standoffish?
Speaker:
00:59:39,676 --> 00:59:41,978
I know it depended on which trip.
Speaker:
00:59:41,978 --> 00:59:47,216
So on the the first two or the,
the first one, we had great rapport.
Speaker:
00:59:47,250 --> 00:59:48,251
He was a guy named Mr.
Speaker:
00:59:48,251 --> 00:59:51,854
Low and I understand
he he now lives in San Francisco.
Speaker:
00:59:51,988 --> 00:59:56,292
The, the the 95 trip that went so bad,
that guy was lazy.
Speaker:
00:59:56,526 --> 01:00:01,531
And because it was a very arduous trip,
he basically just didn't go with us.
Speaker:
01:00:01,831 --> 01:00:05,635
Oh well, that was yeah, double
this a yeah.
Speaker:
01:00:05,902 --> 01:00:10,106
And then on the third trip, because
we left so early, we were on our own.
Speaker:
01:00:10,907 --> 01:00:13,142
So that was yeah, better than average.
Speaker:
01:00:13,142 --> 01:00:16,713
And when I say we were on our own,
we divvied up the Sherpas.
Speaker:
01:00:16,713 --> 01:00:22,085
So we had a number of Sherpas with us
and a guy named our lama and BIM
Speaker:
01:00:22,318 --> 01:00:25,288
and those guys,
we want to go back and find them.
Speaker:
01:00:25,288 --> 01:00:27,991
And they were great. They were great.
Speaker:
01:00:27,991 --> 01:00:29,492
They were great.
Speaker:
01:00:29,492 --> 01:00:33,363
And yeah, I would imagine you really build
Speaker:
01:00:33,563 --> 01:00:37,333
like in long term expeditions like that.
Speaker:
01:00:37,333 --> 01:00:39,969
You build a bond. You do you those.
Speaker:
01:00:39,969 --> 01:00:43,806
I've always been fascinated by the Sherpas
in their tradition
Speaker:
01:00:44,273 --> 01:00:47,276
of supporting expeditions. Yeah.
Speaker:
01:00:47,443 --> 01:00:50,546
With the mountains
or in this case of river.
Speaker:
01:00:50,546 --> 01:00:52,315
And it's interesting.
Speaker:
01:00:52,315 --> 01:00:52,682
Right?
Speaker:
01:00:52,682 --> 01:00:56,886
I'll never forget we had
we were on a ridgeline and we came across
Speaker:
01:00:56,886 --> 01:01:01,324
this mountain peak that we had to ascend,
or we'd have to go back.
Speaker:
01:01:01,491 --> 01:01:02,759
But we didn't have enough food.
Speaker:
01:01:02,759 --> 01:01:04,327
We didn't have a choice.
Speaker:
01:01:04,327 --> 01:01:06,496
We had to get over this peak.
Speaker:
01:01:06,496 --> 01:01:08,631
And I remember the the porters
Speaker:
01:01:08,631 --> 01:01:12,201
who were indigenous,
they were either Montoya's or Lopez.
Speaker:
01:01:12,835 --> 01:01:14,537
They were refusing to go.
Speaker:
01:01:14,537 --> 01:01:17,940
So I'm, you know,
things get heated out there because it's,
Speaker:
01:01:17,940 --> 01:01:21,744
you know, it sounds hokey and corny,
but it's life or death.
Speaker:
01:01:21,744 --> 01:01:21,844
Yeah.
Speaker:
01:01:21,844 --> 01:01:22,679
We were in a starve.
Speaker:
01:01:22,679 --> 01:01:25,114
If we had to go back,
we didn't have enough food.
Speaker:
01:01:25,114 --> 01:01:27,950
So I'm I'm screaming at that dollar.
Speaker:
01:01:27,950 --> 01:01:30,286
Tell these people they can make it.
Speaker:
01:01:30,286 --> 01:01:33,890
We will get them over this hill,
over this peak.
Speaker:
01:01:34,257 --> 01:01:37,860
And so dog goes and converses with them,
and then he comes back to me and he goes,
Speaker:
01:01:38,061 --> 01:01:40,163
oh, I'm so sorry, Mr. Guillen. Letter.
Speaker:
01:01:40,163 --> 01:01:41,597
You don't understand.
Speaker:
01:01:41,597 --> 01:01:45,568
They're not at all concerned
about their ability to get across.
Speaker:
01:01:48,204 --> 01:01:50,473
Fair enough.
Speaker:
01:01:50,473 --> 01:01:53,876
And so it resolved itself
enough to where they brought you along.
Speaker:
01:01:53,876 --> 01:01:56,412
Yeah, they were going there anyway. Yeah.
Speaker:
01:01:56,412 --> 01:01:59,882
We were taking shoelaces out of boots
to hang on to
Speaker:
01:01:59,882 --> 01:02:02,852
because we didn't have the ropes
that we needed.
Speaker:
01:02:02,952 --> 01:02:03,453
Oh, my.
Speaker:
01:02:03,453 --> 01:02:03,953
Goodness.
Speaker:
01:02:03,953 --> 01:02:06,489
You just
you had. To do that high elevation.
Speaker:
01:02:06,489 --> 01:02:09,492
And that is true in that journey. Yeah.
Speaker:
01:02:09,692 --> 01:02:11,227
Oh that's really cool.
Speaker:
01:02:11,227 --> 01:02:15,331
And then afterwards
when you're headed back to the States,
Speaker:
01:02:15,732 --> 01:02:18,334
is there any complication
leaving the country?
Speaker:
01:02:18,334 --> 01:02:22,038
Do they go through the,
your luggage or what?
Speaker:
01:02:22,038 --> 01:02:24,474
What sort of, exit?
Speaker:
01:02:24,474 --> 01:02:25,341
Right.
Speaker:
01:02:25,341 --> 01:02:27,810
That's a good question.
So they did at the compound.
Speaker:
01:02:27,810 --> 01:02:29,078
They went through every.
Speaker:
01:02:29,078 --> 01:02:31,647
They took everything
out of our duffel bag.
Speaker:
01:02:31,647 --> 01:02:34,217
What is this? Holding up a dirty sock.
Speaker:
01:02:34,217 --> 01:02:38,121
And they do that to rattle you,
and it works and it gets under your ears.
Speaker:
01:02:38,187 --> 01:02:41,190
What is this? It's toothpaste. What?
Speaker:
01:02:41,357 --> 01:02:43,726
Every single. Single penny thing.
Speaker:
01:02:43,726 --> 01:02:48,498
And then they had people coming
in, posing as maids to clean the
Speaker:
01:02:48,498 --> 01:02:52,869
the rooms that we were in,
but they spoke and comprehended English.
Speaker:
01:02:53,703 --> 01:02:54,871
And so they were spies.
Speaker:
01:02:54,871 --> 01:02:56,139
They were spies.
Speaker:
01:02:56,139 --> 01:02:58,407
So but back to your question.
Speaker:
01:02:58,407 --> 01:03:03,679
Once we cleared that, getting up from
that point was fairly easy.
Speaker:
01:03:03,679 --> 01:03:06,916
At that point you just get the lasso,
you get into the airport,
Speaker:
01:03:07,216 --> 01:03:11,454
and they try to make a little trouble
with your passports or dates,
Speaker:
01:03:11,454 --> 01:03:12,622
but nothing major.
Speaker:
01:03:12,622 --> 01:03:15,625
That's usually just a graft. Yeah.
Speaker:
01:03:16,025 --> 01:03:18,227
A $20 bill at that time.
Speaker:
01:03:18,227 --> 01:03:21,364
And, were you prepared for that?
Speaker:
01:03:21,430 --> 01:03:22,231
For.
Speaker:
01:03:22,231 --> 01:03:25,902
For. Having the cash
and was it American dollars?
Speaker:
01:03:25,902 --> 01:03:27,670
Yeah, it was American dollars.
Speaker:
01:03:27,670 --> 01:03:30,673
Because they were quite valuable to them.
Speaker:
01:03:30,740 --> 01:03:31,974
Well, yes and no.
Speaker:
01:03:31,974 --> 01:03:35,745
They some to some of the members
and Loompas Lopez, they weren't valuable
Speaker:
01:03:35,745 --> 01:03:38,114
because they had no place to exchange it.
Speaker:
01:03:38,114 --> 01:03:42,018
But the ones that could, the younger ones
that could get in the bigger towns
Speaker:
01:03:42,018 --> 01:03:44,887
and cities. Yeah,
they coveted the dollars, the exchange.
Speaker:
01:03:44,887 --> 01:03:46,889
So good for them. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:
01:03:46,889 --> 01:03:47,890
It was so funny. Brian.
Speaker:
01:03:47,890 --> 01:03:50,660
There was one guy
we we named all our porters after people
Speaker:
01:03:50,660 --> 01:03:55,364
that we knew back that resembled people
we knew, and we had this one one.
Speaker:
01:03:55,364 --> 01:03:57,667
He was an older man.
We called him Brad Watts.
Speaker:
01:03:57,667 --> 01:04:00,102
And you get attached to those guys
and of course, there's
Speaker:
01:04:00,102 --> 01:04:01,704
no communication, right?
Speaker:
01:04:01,704 --> 01:04:03,840
Unless you have a translator. Right.
Speaker:
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:07,810
And I wanted I left with, with Brad, my,
Speaker:
01:04:07,877 --> 01:04:10,880
Gore-Tex parka
Speaker:
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:13,683
and I wanted him to give me his.
Speaker:
01:04:13,683 --> 01:04:16,686
They all carry these machetes
and he had this one.
Speaker:
01:04:16,686 --> 01:04:17,553
It was so cool.
Speaker:
01:04:17,553 --> 01:04:20,556
It was I mean,
it looked like it was 100 years old.
Speaker:
01:04:20,556 --> 01:04:25,428
And when when the translator was
telling him what I wanted, he couldn't.
Speaker:
01:04:25,895 --> 01:04:27,630
He goes, no, no,
I'll get you a different one.
Speaker:
01:04:27,630 --> 01:04:29,298
And he comes back with this crummy
Speaker:
01:04:29,298 --> 01:04:33,436
little Chinese made knife blade thinking,
I want the new and shiny.
Speaker:
01:04:33,436 --> 01:04:36,706
And I'm like, no,
I want this old antique looking thing.
Speaker:
01:04:37,406 --> 01:04:38,574
And he for you. Oh, yeah.
Speaker:
01:04:38,574 --> 01:04:39,275
Yeah. When?
Speaker:
01:04:39,275 --> 01:04:42,111
When he couldn't understand
why I would want that.
Speaker:
01:04:42,111 --> 01:04:42,678
But yeah.
Speaker:
01:04:42,678 --> 01:04:43,379
Yeah it was.
Speaker:
01:04:43,379 --> 01:04:46,349
It's a you would think it's his old
friend, right?
Speaker:
01:04:46,349 --> 01:04:48,751
You know, like I have a couple knives.
Yeah. Be.
Speaker:
01:04:48,751 --> 01:04:50,186
They'd be hard to give up. Yeah.
Speaker:
01:04:50,186 --> 01:04:52,421
Give him. Up. No. He's a funny. Yeah.
Speaker:
01:04:52,421 --> 01:04:56,459
Now what was it like, crossing the border
with such weapons?
Speaker:
01:04:56,492 --> 01:05:00,796
You know, again, this was,
back back then, so, yeah, that wasn't.
Speaker:
01:05:00,796 --> 01:05:03,766
A problem that you could carry.
Speaker:
01:05:03,766 --> 01:05:05,735
Yeah. Stuff through.
Speaker:
01:05:05,735 --> 01:05:07,303
That's an amazing story.
Speaker:
01:05:07,303 --> 01:05:10,439
And, you know, hopefully,
Speaker:
01:05:10,473 --> 01:05:14,477
everybody listening, keep track of,
Speaker:
01:05:15,711 --> 01:05:16,412
when you launch
Speaker:
01:05:16,412 --> 01:05:20,182
this book, it'll be called
Finding Tibet's Hidden Falls.
Speaker:
01:05:20,349 --> 01:05:22,251
Yeah, that title may change.
Speaker:
01:05:22,251 --> 01:05:24,687
We don't know, but it will be available.
Speaker:
01:05:24,687 --> 01:05:27,123
But look for Gil and Troy.
Speaker:
01:05:27,123 --> 01:05:28,391
Gil and water.
Speaker:
01:05:28,391 --> 01:05:30,293
Gil?
Speaker:
01:05:30,293 --> 01:05:32,628
Yeah. Twitter.
Speaker:
01:05:32,628 --> 01:05:34,897
And it's pretty interesting.
Speaker:
01:05:34,897 --> 01:05:35,531
Little search.
Speaker:
01:05:35,531 --> 01:05:40,503
Anyway, on the Gil and Waterboys,
I found, in preparation for this
Speaker:
01:05:41,304 --> 01:05:43,606
with all this travel and I kind of like,
Speaker:
01:05:43,606 --> 01:05:48,678
you know, since we are running
later on time, here, I always.
Speaker:
01:05:48,678 --> 01:05:52,081
Yeah, especially somebody
with your perspective that's looked at
Speaker:
01:05:52,415 --> 01:05:55,785
not only our domestic lands, but globally.
Speaker:
01:05:56,419 --> 01:06:00,289
Is there optimism left
as far as the way things are going?
Speaker:
01:06:00,289 --> 01:06:03,392
As far as the impacts
that we're putting down.
Speaker:
01:06:03,392 --> 01:06:06,529
And I'm particularly
I think number one concern
Speaker:
01:06:06,529 --> 01:06:10,132
I have is atmospheric because you look at,
Speaker:
01:06:10,866 --> 01:06:13,970
things celestial and you can see
Speaker:
01:06:13,970 --> 01:06:18,841
that Mars had an atmosphere,
or these other planets
Speaker:
01:06:18,841 --> 01:06:23,946
that are close enough to the,
the Earth situation from the sun.
Speaker:
01:06:24,580 --> 01:06:27,316
It's a very rare thing to have
Speaker:
01:06:27,316 --> 01:06:29,452
an atmosphere like this.
Speaker:
01:06:29,452 --> 01:06:30,419
And so what is it?
Speaker:
01:06:30,419 --> 01:06:34,390
Give us a little insight
of your desperation when you look at that.
Speaker:
01:06:34,390 --> 01:06:41,130
Or do you have any inklings of optimism
for the human experience
Speaker:
01:06:41,130 --> 01:06:44,533
that we're going into with this
tiny little planet with an atmosphere?
Speaker:
01:06:44,633 --> 01:06:47,937
Yeah, I know exactly what you're
talking about and what you're asking.
Speaker:
01:06:48,604 --> 01:06:49,872
I think
Speaker:
01:06:51,007 --> 01:06:54,243
I think that, I'm I'm optimistic
Speaker:
01:06:55,111 --> 01:06:58,748
that homo sapiens
are unbelievably resilient.
Speaker:
01:07:00,082 --> 01:07:02,885
I don't think there will be ever
another time
Speaker:
01:07:02,885 --> 01:07:06,022
like you and I were able to experience
here.
Speaker:
01:07:06,022 --> 01:07:08,657
It was, you know, everything changes.
Speaker:
01:07:08,657 --> 01:07:09,558
So I.
Speaker:
01:07:09,558 --> 01:07:13,496
And I look at it now
with just pure and utter gratefulness
Speaker:
01:07:14,430 --> 01:07:17,500
that we were able to experience
what we were given
Speaker:
01:07:17,500 --> 01:07:21,203
the climate conditions that they are,
they're going to be different,
Speaker:
01:07:21,270 --> 01:07:22,471
there's no doubt.
Speaker:
01:07:22,471 --> 01:07:27,109
I mean, and so you can either
look at that in a defeatist way.
Speaker:
01:07:27,109 --> 01:07:28,244
Things are going to change.
Speaker:
01:07:28,244 --> 01:07:31,781
I what I wonder about is just for me,
Speaker:
01:07:32,148 --> 01:07:34,850
the wilderness nature that sustain
Speaker:
01:07:34,850 --> 01:07:37,853
me, that's not going to be the case.
Speaker:
01:07:37,853 --> 01:07:40,022
I think for people in the future,
Speaker:
01:07:40,022 --> 01:07:43,592
they're going to have to find different
methods because it's going to change.
Speaker:
01:07:43,759 --> 01:07:47,396
But so long as I'm here,
if we can do things like help preserve
Speaker:
01:07:47,396 --> 01:07:51,934
the Arizona Trail, help
preserve the national parks
Speaker:
01:07:51,934 --> 01:07:55,471
and national recreation areas,
and give people an outlet,
Speaker:
01:07:56,038 --> 01:07:58,641
to have these experiences,
Speaker:
01:07:58,641 --> 01:08:01,644
then that that's the best that we can do.
Speaker:
01:08:01,911 --> 01:08:04,280
Well said. You know, I, I do
Speaker:
01:08:05,748 --> 01:08:06,715
look at
Speaker:
01:08:06,715 --> 01:08:10,186
the story of people our age as lives
Speaker:
01:08:10,186 --> 01:08:15,391
and the dramatic change that the world's
gone through just in our lives.
Speaker:
01:08:15,858 --> 01:08:20,963
And then you plug that into your parents
lives who went through 1
Speaker:
01:08:20,963 --> 01:08:25,568
or 2 world wars in Korea
and all that stuff.
Speaker:
01:08:26,268 --> 01:08:28,537
We've been very fortunate.
Speaker:
01:08:28,537 --> 01:08:32,608
I mean, all we can do is be truly thankful
that we were,
Speaker:
01:08:33,642 --> 01:08:36,245
able to live in this time. Yeah.
Speaker:
01:08:36,245 --> 01:08:38,647
But I do, I agree with you.
Speaker:
01:08:38,647 --> 01:08:44,120
The the the challenges ahead for
the people are obvious,
Speaker:
01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:47,323
you know, but also, it is,
Speaker:
01:08:47,623 --> 01:08:51,360
you wish that for, like my,
my nephews and nieces
Speaker:
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:53,696
and all these kids
that that work for me at the shop
Speaker:
01:08:53,696 --> 01:08:56,699
and all all these kids,
I love and care about.
Speaker:
01:08:56,765 --> 01:08:59,668
It's so important
to protect what we've got left
Speaker:
01:08:59,668 --> 01:09:02,972
and that's going to be on them,
but also to enjoy it
Speaker:
01:09:02,972 --> 01:09:06,308
and get out there
and use what we've got because it
Speaker:
01:09:07,643 --> 01:09:08,077
just in
Speaker:
01:09:08,077 --> 01:09:11,080
our lives, we've watched so much of that
go away.
Speaker:
01:09:11,347 --> 01:09:13,849
And so those are words. Well said.
Speaker:
01:09:13,849 --> 01:09:14,950
Thank you Brian. Hey.
Speaker:
01:09:14,950 --> 01:09:16,619
Well I'll tell you what this is.
Speaker:
01:09:16,619 --> 01:09:21,790
I'd like to do this again because I have
a lot more questions for you.
Speaker:
01:09:21,957 --> 01:09:23,159
Well, any time. Yeah.
Speaker:
01:09:23,159 --> 01:09:26,462
Now we'll be in touch and, just,
Speaker:
01:09:26,462 --> 01:09:30,166
for the listener,
so, so grateful for you.
Speaker:
01:09:30,766 --> 01:09:32,168
Stay right side up.
Speaker:
01:09:32,168 --> 01:09:35,538
And, let's take care of what we got.
Speaker:
01:09:35,971 --> 01:09:39,408
This is a great visit with mister Dylan.
Speaker:
01:09:39,408 --> 01:09:41,143
Water. Troy, thank you so much.
Speaker:
01:09:41,143 --> 01:09:45,514
And this is Brian,
and you're sitting in a big adventure,
Speaker:
01:09:45,681 --> 01:09:48,684
and we sure hope to have you
the next time.
Speaker:
01:09:51,687 --> 01:09:55,024
On Big Adventures is produced
Speaker:
01:09:55,024 --> 01:09:58,494
by Brian darker
Tail darker and me, Gavin Buckner.
Speaker:
01:09:58,794 --> 01:10:02,298
If you like our show, please subscribe
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