1 00:00:00,810 --> 00:00:03,690 Hey friends, let me address the elephant in the room. I've been 2 00:00:03,690 --> 00:00:06,600 sick and I'm trying to get over it, but if you can hang on 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:08,880 through this episode, then I promise we'll get through it 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,810 together, and hopefully I'll be good as new for the future. Let 5 00:00:12,810 --> 00:00:16,350 me first start by introducing our two guests for today. Jared 6 00:00:16,350 --> 00:00:18,840 is a public high school counselor, adjunct counseling 7 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,590 faculty and co founder of Forget the Rankings, the values driven 8 00:00:22,590 --> 00:00:25,740 college search. As both a school counselor and licensed 9 00:00:25,740 --> 00:00:28,980 therapist, he understands the impact that the college search 10 00:00:28,980 --> 00:00:32,370 can have on the mental health of our teens. Forget the Rankings 11 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,250 aims to change the narrative surrounding the college search, 12 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,580 to focus on each student's values rather than prestige. 13 00:00:39,090 --> 00:00:42,780 Now let me introduce you to Jen. Jen is a school counselor, 14 00:00:42,780 --> 00:00:45,420 therapist, and teacher who brings over 15 years of 15 00:00:45,420 --> 00:00:47,790 experience supporting students through their educational 16 00:00:47,790 --> 00:00:51,180 journeys. Witnessing firsthand the mounting mental health 17 00:00:51,180 --> 00:00:54,360 crisis fueled by rankings-driven college admissions, she co 18 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,450 founded forget the rankings to transform how students and 19 00:00:57,450 --> 00:01:01,080 families navigate this process. Drawing from her background in 20 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,110 cultural anthropology and extensive work across K-12 21 00:01:04,110 --> 00:01:07,260 education, she emphasizes personal values and authentic 22 00:01:07,260 --> 00:01:08,490 fit over prestige. 23 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,060 The three of us had a really great conversation about the 24 00:01:12,060 --> 00:01:15,000 college search landscape and the effects that this pressure 25 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,420 cooker is having on students' mental health. By the time they 26 00:01:18,420 --> 00:01:21,240 get to the end of their high school careers, students feel 27 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,240 like they're living in this world of competition after 28 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,000 watching each other apply to colleges and sharing who got 29 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,360 into where and who applied where. The whole thing just gets 30 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,940 blown out of proportion, and high school counselors have a 31 00:01:32,940 --> 00:01:36,600 front seat to watching it all unfold. Jen and Jared were 32 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,900 really, quite frankly, tired of watching the same conversations 33 00:01:39,900 --> 00:01:43,050 happen over and over again in front of them, between students 34 00:01:43,050 --> 00:01:45,810 and parents, that they just knew that they had to do something 35 00:01:45,810 --> 00:01:48,840 about it. So listen in as you hear about what they're doing in 36 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:51,570 their school to combat the mental health epidemic as it 37 00:01:51,570 --> 00:01:53,820 pertains to the college search process and college 38 00:01:53,820 --> 00:01:54,600 applications. 39 00:01:54,000 --> 00:02:03,510 You got into this profession to make a difference in your 40 00:02:03,510 --> 00:02:06,600 students lives, but you're spread thin by all the things 41 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,780 that keep getting added to your to do list. I can't create more 42 00:02:09,780 --> 00:02:12,360 hours in the day, but I can invite you into my Counselor 43 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,660 Clique where you'll finally catch your breath. Come with me 44 00:02:15,660 --> 00:02:18,750 as we unpack creative ideas and effective strategies that'll 45 00:02:18,750 --> 00:02:21,600 help you be the counselor who leaves a lifelong impact on your 46 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,720 students. I'm Lauren Tingle, your high school counseling hype 47 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,810 girl, here to help you energize your school counseling program 48 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,060 and remind you of how much you love your job. 49 00:02:33,750 --> 00:02:37,230 Hey guys, Jen and Jared, thank you for being on the podcast. 50 00:02:37,230 --> 00:02:40,290 I'm excited to talk about college searching and mental 51 00:02:40,290 --> 00:02:43,380 health and values-driven searching. You all have a great 52 00:02:43,410 --> 00:02:45,780 topic that you kind of brought to the podcast, and I think it's 53 00:02:45,780 --> 00:02:47,760 definitely worth talking about. So welcome to the show. 54 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:48,870 Thanks for having us. 55 00:02:48,870 --> 00:02:49,230 Thank you. 56 00:02:49,540 --> 00:02:53,560 Yeah, let's jump right in. I kind of am curious about the two 57 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,950 of y'all experiences kind of growing up and searching for 58 00:02:56,950 --> 00:03:00,190 college yourself. Like, what did that process look like for you? 59 00:03:00,190 --> 00:03:03,010 Because I know everyone kind of has their own origin story. It's 60 00:03:03,010 --> 00:03:05,260 probably shaping what you're doing now. 61 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,590 Yeah, our stories look really different, but I think both of 62 00:03:08,590 --> 00:03:11,020 them, like really lend well to what we're doing now. So I grew 63 00:03:11,020 --> 00:03:15,910 up in very rural Pennsylvania, like town with one traffic 64 00:03:15,910 --> 00:03:17,110 light, kind of place. 65 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,410 Yeah, where most people didn't go to college. Like it was a 66 00:03:17,110 --> 00:03:17,560 Love it. 67 00:03:21,410 --> 00:03:23,900 farming community. A lot of people, like, stayed and worked 68 00:03:23,900 --> 00:03:27,230 on the farm. Maybe 30% of my graduating class went off to 69 00:03:27,230 --> 00:03:31,130 college. And there were like 120 of us. And I won't forget being 70 00:03:31,130 --> 00:03:34,550 in my school counselor's office and saying, like, I think I 71 00:03:34,550 --> 00:03:37,520 really want, like, a small college, you know, I want to go 72 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,260 somewhere that maybe a lot of people from our high school 73 00:03:39,260 --> 00:03:42,230 don't go. And I remember him saying, like, oh, you should put 74 00:03:42,230 --> 00:03:45,050 Penn State on your college list. And I was like, there's like, 75 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:46,370 40,000 students. 76 00:03:46,790 --> 00:03:49,730 Like, is that, am I misunderstanding here? 77 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,080 And I said the opposite of that. And just remember feeling like, 78 00:03:53,110 --> 00:03:55,990 oh, okay, like, I'm gonna do this alone. And was lucky that I 79 00:03:55,990 --> 00:03:58,300 had, like, an older brother who ended up at a small, private 80 00:03:58,630 --> 00:04:01,210 liberal arts college, and I knew that that's the experience that 81 00:04:01,210 --> 00:04:06,280 I wanted. But, like, no support from high school at all, and I 82 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:10,060 ended up at Albright College in Redding, Pennsylvania, that no 83 00:04:10,060 --> 00:04:13,660 one from my high school had gone there or was there. But yeah, 84 00:04:13,660 --> 00:04:16,930 like, it was just not a college going culture, not a lot of 85 00:04:16,930 --> 00:04:20,110 support. Lucky to have a family that was supportive, and I kind 86 00:04:20,110 --> 00:04:21,460 of, we figured it out as we went. 87 00:04:22,140 --> 00:04:25,710 My experience was different than that. I had more of an 88 00:04:25,710 --> 00:04:28,620 experience similar to the school where Jared and I work, a 89 00:04:28,620 --> 00:04:31,320 suburban high school outside Philadelphia, very much a 90 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,610 college going culture, so much so that there was definitely the 91 00:04:35,610 --> 00:04:38,550 right schools to get into and the wrong schools to get into. 92 00:04:38,550 --> 00:04:43,470 And of course, this was like pre social media days, but we, Jared 93 00:04:43,470 --> 00:04:45,840 and I have talked about this before, we had a bulletin board 94 00:04:46,170 --> 00:04:49,320 at our high school, and, like, the big thing was to put your 95 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,950 name up with where you were going, in your college colors. 96 00:04:53,220 --> 00:04:55,860 And it was hard, because, like, it, you know, when early 97 00:04:55,860 --> 00:04:59,430 decision rolled around, you saw students with the fancy schools 98 00:04:59,430 --> 00:05:02,520 being pinned up there, and you felt certain ways if you weren't 99 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,950 up there, or if it wasn't the right type of school. 100 00:05:05,140 --> 00:05:09,010 And that was definitely my experience. Despite getting a 101 00:05:09,010 --> 00:05:12,880 lot of guidance from my counselor, she was wonderful, 102 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,240 but it was very much like what I think most counselors today 103 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,200 still do when engaging with the college search process. And 104 00:05:20,530 --> 00:05:23,740 there wasn't a whole lot of emphasis on, like, how are you 105 00:05:23,740 --> 00:05:26,290 doing with it, or who are you, which we're going to get to 106 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,730 later. But it was hard seeing your friends get into the right 107 00:05:30,730 --> 00:05:33,850 schools. Excuse me doing air quotes, but I'm doing air quotes 108 00:05:33,850 --> 00:05:37,570 everybody ,the right schools. And me not feeling like my 109 00:05:37,570 --> 00:05:39,700 school was one of the right schools, which is just so 110 00:05:39,700 --> 00:05:41,950 different from Jared's experience, because I went to 111 00:05:41,950 --> 00:05:45,790 Bucknell and my friends were going to Ivy League schools. So 112 00:05:45,820 --> 00:05:49,720 it wasn't the same tier, again air quotes, of schools, and it 113 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:51,820 made the process really stressful and definitely 114 00:05:51,820 --> 00:05:56,530 impacted my view on like, who I was as a person, not able to 115 00:05:56,530 --> 00:06:00,700 like, reach that top tier school as society deems it. 116 00:06:01,390 --> 00:06:05,230 Yeah, and that's so interesting that your set of rankings at 117 00:06:05,230 --> 00:06:08,830 your school was different than your set, Jared, like, so 118 00:06:08,830 --> 00:06:12,340 different, but everybody had this invisible list in their 119 00:06:12,340 --> 00:06:15,280 mind, or that their teachers were saying, or their parents or 120 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:18,040 their counselors of like, this is the good one. This is where 121 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,040 you should—don't even put that up on the bulletin board because 122 00:06:21,370 --> 00:06:24,520 you'd be embarrassed that you even got in. What? No! But like, 123 00:06:24,970 --> 00:06:28,780 that's a real feeling. I'm sure that people in your grade were 124 00:06:28,780 --> 00:06:30,640 feeling as they were applying to college. 125 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,640 For sure, and it still exists today. And I think, at least 126 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,220 from my experience, the list hasn't changed that much. 127 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:37,740 Yeah, we're talking about the same places. 128 00:06:39,030 --> 00:06:41,820 And they're not listening to us right now, do you think that 129 00:06:41,820 --> 00:06:46,530 those come from big, just the college ranking kind of, 130 00:06:46,710 --> 00:06:50,670 Newsweek, World Report, like, those kinds of number one party 131 00:06:50,670 --> 00:06:53,670 school number one for this? Like, that's where we get that 132 00:06:53,670 --> 00:06:55,860 from? I think that's where I got it from when I was in high 133 00:06:55,860 --> 00:06:57,390 school without social media. 134 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,720 Yeah. And I think it's like, there's like, a reputation piece 135 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,660 to that, right? Like, so highly ranked, you're talked about a 136 00:07:03,660 --> 00:07:07,110 lot, right? What parents are talking about at soccer 137 00:07:07,110 --> 00:07:09,750 practice, and, you know, in the morning with their coffee, like, 138 00:07:09,750 --> 00:07:14,250 we just keep speaking these same names over and over, and it just 139 00:07:14,250 --> 00:07:16,620 like, takes hold. It's like, the sweatshirt schools, we often 140 00:07:16,650 --> 00:07:19,590 call them. Like, name a school to a parent, they're like, well, 141 00:07:19,590 --> 00:07:21,840 we've never heard of that, and it's like, but it's such a 142 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,810 wonderful place. But if it's not like in their... 143 00:07:25,710 --> 00:07:28,470 Vernacular, in their world where they're talking about it, then 144 00:07:28,470 --> 00:07:29,460 it's, it's nothing. 145 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,460 Right, if my neighbor is not going to be like, Oh wow, when I 146 00:07:32,460 --> 00:07:35,490 say that school, like, I want the oh wow, from the person at 147 00:07:35,490 --> 00:07:38,670 the grocery store, that I want my kid to go to. 148 00:07:39,110 --> 00:07:41,300 Well, and that kind of leads into my next question is, what 149 00:07:41,300 --> 00:07:44,270 kind of trends are you seeing right now today? Like you're in 150 00:07:44,270 --> 00:07:45,830 the schools, y'all work together? 151 00:07:46,130 --> 00:07:46,490 Yes. 152 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,340 Same department. So, I mean, you could speak to the trends at 153 00:07:49,340 --> 00:07:52,430 your school, or even maybe just as a whole, what are you seeing 154 00:07:52,430 --> 00:07:54,620 in the college search process with our students right now? 155 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,430 It is a push for many of our students to the same name 156 00:07:58,430 --> 00:08:02,450 schools that we were still talking about 20, 30 years ago. 157 00:08:02,690 --> 00:08:05,210 And I think, I think you hit the nail on the head that it, it's 158 00:08:05,210 --> 00:08:08,090 coming from the rankings, but it's also coming from the 159 00:08:08,090 --> 00:08:12,020 culture that the rankings have established. So you know, even 160 00:08:12,020 --> 00:08:14,570 if you go on and your family that's thinking like, Okay, we 161 00:08:14,570 --> 00:08:18,230 want a hidden gem school, we're ready to think outside the box 162 00:08:18,230 --> 00:08:20,840 and find something that's off the beaten path. And you throw 163 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,770 that into Google, hidden gem schools that value activism, the 164 00:08:24,770 --> 00:08:29,240 same schools come up, right? Like Google can't even produce 165 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:33,620 for you those other names. And they exist, though. It's crazy. 166 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:35,000 Like they are out there. 167 00:08:35,030 --> 00:08:37,700 There's just not a great way to find them. And I think, too, the 168 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,450 trend now has become like, I will apply to as many schools as 169 00:08:41,450 --> 00:08:44,240 possible that are hyper selective, to throw everything 170 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,420 at the wall and see what sticks. And like, when I think about a 171 00:08:47,420 --> 00:08:49,760 student who comes in our office and they're like, I'm applying 172 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,210 to all the Ivy's, it's like they're so different. Like to be 173 00:08:53,210 --> 00:08:57,200 at Dartmouth versus to be at like Penn, they couldn't be more 174 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:01,170 And could you possibly fit in all those places? Do you want to 175 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:57,560 different. 176 00:09:01,170 --> 00:09:04,620 go to all those places? No, you just want to say you got in, or 177 00:09:04,620 --> 00:09:05,280 whatever. 178 00:09:05,460 --> 00:09:09,870 It's like, hunting for prestige. And that's where I find like now 179 00:09:09,870 --> 00:09:13,050 we have students who are, you know, tackling so many AP 180 00:09:13,050 --> 00:09:15,510 courses and the college search, but instead of applying to, 181 00:09:15,510 --> 00:09:18,870 like, eight to 10 schools, it's 20, and they all have 182 00:09:18,870 --> 00:09:22,050 supplements. And it just, we create this, like pressure 183 00:09:22,050 --> 00:09:26,610 cooker, that students are already not mentally well when 184 00:09:26,610 --> 00:09:29,700 it comes to all of this, right? So we add all of this on top, 185 00:09:29,700 --> 00:09:33,780 and we, we've, I think, as a, as a country, as a culture of made 186 00:09:33,780 --> 00:09:37,350 students believe that, like, where you get in showcases your 187 00:09:37,350 --> 00:09:39,810 worth. And same for parents, right? I think a lot of parents 188 00:09:39,810 --> 00:09:43,290 are like, my worth as a parent is connected to the school that 189 00:09:43,290 --> 00:09:45,600 my student goes to. And I want other parents to think I've done 190 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:46,350 a good job. 191 00:09:46,410 --> 00:09:49,320 Right. And you hear those stories like, early and earlier, 192 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,710 like, I'm applying to this prestigious preschool so that my 193 00:09:52,710 --> 00:09:55,560 child can get into Harvard. Like, it starts so early, 194 00:09:55,560 --> 00:09:56,910 they're already thinking about it. 195 00:09:57,180 --> 00:09:59,010 And that's what, I think you just like, mix all of that 196 00:09:59,010 --> 00:10:02,190 together and then you wonder, like, why are we seeing more 197 00:10:02,190 --> 00:10:04,860 students with mental health crises and, like, depression and 198 00:10:04,860 --> 00:10:08,430 anxiety? It's like, Hello. Let's pause for a minute and realize 199 00:10:08,670 --> 00:10:12,150 we're making them feel like everything they do is to achieve 200 00:10:12,150 --> 00:10:14,760 an outcome, versus like, What about like, learning about 201 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,610 something because you're curious about it, or like, doing 202 00:10:17,610 --> 00:10:20,250 something fun in the summer, like working a part time job. 203 00:10:20,550 --> 00:10:23,910 That's good. You don't have to go do, like, research with a 204 00:10:23,910 --> 00:10:24,690 professor. 205 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,290 Unless you're interested in that, and it's a passion and you 206 00:10:28,290 --> 00:10:31,590 want to learn about it, and you're curious, like, no. 207 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:37,960 So we hit a little bit, I think, of a breaking point. I'll just 208 00:10:31,000 --> 00:11:02,830 And you don't want to see students get to the end and feel 209 00:10:31,580 --> 00:10:34,662 Yeah. It's not for the growth, it's the outcome, the potential 210 00:10:34,712 --> 00:10:37,894 outcome. And I think the saddest part about it, too, is the kids 211 00:10:37,943 --> 00:10:40,976 who, once they get in, like, will sit and reflect with us and 212 00:10:38,290 --> 00:10:40,840 tell the story of, like, how this philosophy came to be with 213 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,970 us. So I had been in my umteenth team meeting where a student 214 00:10:41,026 --> 00:10:43,959 be like, you know, I really, I never really got a chance to 215 00:10:44,009 --> 00:10:46,992 hang out with my friends. I remember one student a few years 216 00:10:47,042 --> 00:10:49,925 ago got in, felt a sense of relief, but then broke down in 217 00:10:47,110 --> 00:11:23,980 came in and said, I want to go to there's an Ivy League school 218 00:10:49,975 --> 00:10:52,908 tears and was like, I never went and got, what did she say? 219 00:10:52,958 --> 00:10:55,991 Bubble tea. I never got a chance to go get bubble tea with my 220 00:10:56,041 --> 00:10:59,173 friends. And that was like the breaking point for her.It's such 221 00:10:59,222 --> 00:10:59,919 a small thing. 222 00:11:02,830 --> 00:11:06,580 like that. So are y'all changing the narrative in your school in 223 00:11:06,580 --> 00:11:09,700 some way? Like, how do you fight against that as a school 224 00:11:09,700 --> 00:11:10,240 counselor? 225 00:11:24,310 --> 00:11:27,160 that's in our neighborhood that they they love to say, this is 226 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:27,910 where they want to go. 227 00:11:28,090 --> 00:11:31,060 So you got mad, you flipped a table and you said, I'm done 228 00:11:31,060 --> 00:11:31,270 with this. 229 00:11:31,270 --> 00:11:32,650 Yeah, I flipped the table... 230 00:11:33,430 --> 00:11:35,530 And the student was like, No, but I like, really want to go 231 00:11:35,530 --> 00:11:35,830 there. 232 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,670 But I said, why? Right? Like, the question, How come? And 233 00:11:39,670 --> 00:11:41,590 they're like, because it's a good school. What makes it a 234 00:11:41,590 --> 00:11:45,310 good school? It just is, like, they can't get past that, right? 235 00:11:45,430 --> 00:11:47,650 So into jared's office, I marched down the hall, flipping 236 00:11:47,650 --> 00:11:50,290 tables as I go, I'm like, why are we not doing this 237 00:11:50,290 --> 00:11:53,170 differently? And and Jared and I are also both licensed 238 00:11:53,170 --> 00:11:56,140 therapists, So Jared had recently been talking about 239 00:11:56,140 --> 00:11:59,590 doing some career counseling for adults after school, and had 240 00:11:59,590 --> 00:12:03,250 been talking about a value sort. And so I said, Wouldn't it be so 241 00:12:03,250 --> 00:12:06,520 cool if we could rethink our college meetings and we did it 242 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:07,450 based on values? 243 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,690 So I looked at Jen, I was like, Wait, so you're saying have a 244 00:12:10,690 --> 00:12:14,440 card sort, have values and connect, you know, the values to 245 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:16,270 a list of schools. And Jen was like, Yeah. And I was like, 246 00:12:16,270 --> 00:12:19,090 we're doing that. And Jen was like, no. But I was like, No, 247 00:12:19,090 --> 00:12:22,390 we're doing that. So for a year, we've, like, built this really 248 00:12:22,390 --> 00:12:25,900 cool counseling tool, and we're using it in meetings that is 249 00:12:25,900 --> 00:12:29,740 focused on that, right? The idea is, what if we forgot everything 250 00:12:29,740 --> 00:12:31,990 else and didn't even make it about college for a second? And 251 00:12:31,990 --> 00:12:35,260 like, of this list of things, sort through these cards. What 252 00:12:35,260 --> 00:12:38,140 speaks to you? Is it creativity? Is it collaboration? Is it 253 00:12:38,140 --> 00:12:41,440 activism? Is it global citizenship? Is it great food, 254 00:12:41,470 --> 00:12:41,950 right? 255 00:12:42,220 --> 00:12:44,740 And then from there, having conversations with students 256 00:12:44,740 --> 00:12:47,200 about, like, how does this show up in your life? How do you 257 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,980 envision this showing up? Well, here's 15 colleges that also 258 00:12:50,980 --> 00:12:54,400 really care about that thing, and now created this, like, new 259 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,610 entry point, and the student has already selected, like, I love 260 00:12:57,610 --> 00:13:01,660 this thing. So it's less awkward to like, then name a hidden gem 261 00:13:01,990 --> 00:13:04,570 school. It's not like we're pulling it out of, like, the 262 00:13:04,570 --> 00:13:07,600 most obscure place. We've done a lot of research. We've used our 263 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,530 experience to be like, This aligns with who you are. And I 264 00:13:11,530 --> 00:13:14,140 think that students and families, even who are, like, 265 00:13:14,140 --> 00:13:17,950 very prestige focused, can't just ignore that. There's like, 266 00:13:17,950 --> 00:13:19,840 an innate, well, if I'm innately curious about this, like, I 267 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,390 gotta see what schools are on this list. 268 00:13:22,570 --> 00:13:24,850 Like, if this is not a match, then, like, maybe I'm not being 269 00:13:24,850 --> 00:13:26,260 honest about my values. 270 00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:28,870 Exactly. So we try, like, there's a bulletin board in my 271 00:13:28,870 --> 00:13:31,690 office, don't forget the hidden gems, and we rotate them out. 272 00:13:31,690 --> 00:13:34,750 But I think we really, it's about like, cracking open your 273 00:13:34,750 --> 00:13:37,870 world view, right? I think beyond what you've heard all 274 00:13:37,870 --> 00:13:40,420 these years about this one school is like the epitome of 275 00:13:40,420 --> 00:13:44,980 success. And I think again, when the gateway in is then they read 276 00:13:44,980 --> 00:13:48,220 this really cool description of, you know, activism at Bennington 277 00:13:48,220 --> 00:13:51,130 College, there's a course I can take this club is doing this, 278 00:13:51,370 --> 00:13:54,160 you begin to, like, see yourself there and a part of that 279 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,970 community in a different way. And we see students get excited. 280 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,090 And a big thing that we talk about, too, is we don't believe 281 00:14:01,090 --> 00:14:03,310 in safety schools, right? I think there's such a negative 282 00:14:03,310 --> 00:14:05,980 connotation of you have to have a backup option, and if you end 283 00:14:05,980 --> 00:14:07,930 up going there, that means you failed. 284 00:14:08,710 --> 00:14:11,530 There are so many schools out there that, like, can we just 285 00:14:11,530 --> 00:14:14,410 apply to all schools that we'd be good fits for, academically, 286 00:14:14,410 --> 00:14:16,210 socially, culturally? 287 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,180 So that's why we say it's about finding comfort schools. 288 00:14:19,810 --> 00:14:20,770 I love that language. 289 00:14:20,770 --> 00:14:23,560 Schools that you would be excited to be admitted to, and 290 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,710 you find something there for you. So it's not that feeling of 291 00:14:26,710 --> 00:14:29,860 like, Oh, I I ended up going to my safety school because it's 292 00:14:29,860 --> 00:14:32,860 the only place that I got in. It's I feel so excited to go to 293 00:14:32,860 --> 00:14:35,650 a school that is aligned with me, and they really care about 294 00:14:35,650 --> 00:14:38,140 collaboration, and there are living learning communities. It 295 00:14:38,140 --> 00:14:40,690 just has reframed the whole conversation. 296 00:14:41,020 --> 00:14:43,510 One of my favorite parts about the process that we've been 297 00:14:43,510 --> 00:14:47,200 experiencing is watching the student and the parent navigate 298 00:14:47,230 --> 00:14:52,390 that conversation. So last year, when we did it with a family, we 299 00:14:52,390 --> 00:14:55,360 have a student sort first, and the parent does it at tandem, at 300 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:56,140 the same time. 301 00:14:56,470 --> 00:14:58,360 Yeah, I was gonna ask how this works. Is this like in an 302 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,880 individual meeting, and you tell them they're going to be doing 303 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:01,330 this? 304 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:03,490 We haven't warned them ahead of time. 305 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:04,390 Okay, put them on the spot. 306 00:15:04,420 --> 00:15:06,310 We put them on the spot, but we give the students a deck of 307 00:15:06,310 --> 00:15:07,840 cards, and then the parent, or whatever trusted adult is there 308 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,880 with them, and we ask the students to share first, like 309 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:16,870 their top three to five values, and then the parent goes next. 310 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,370 And those responses have just been so fun to watch unfold. 311 00:15:21,370 --> 00:15:24,610 We've had families start chanting five for five, like 312 00:15:24,700 --> 00:15:28,900 they both picked. But we've also had... 313 00:15:29,020 --> 00:15:31,060 Zero for zero, no matches. 314 00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:34,750 I don't think I've had zero for zero. Even today, I did it 315 00:15:34,750 --> 00:15:39,880 today, there was one there was one aligning match, yeah. And 316 00:15:40,030 --> 00:15:42,190 the cool thing, like, even today, there was some 317 00:15:42,190 --> 00:15:44,830 discrepancies, but the parent and the student turned 318 00:15:45,340 --> 00:15:48,520 independently from me, because I've just facilitated the 319 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,060 starting conversation and had a talk about, like, I didn't know 320 00:15:52,060 --> 00:15:54,070 that you had pulled support. What does that mean to you? 321 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,680 Like, I didn't I didn't know that that was important. We had 322 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:00,040 it before with environmentalism. Yeah, that mom got very, in a 323 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,490 good way, emotional. Like I had no idea. I can't believe I'm 324 00:16:03,490 --> 00:16:06,520 walking out of here learning about a value that you think is 325 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,240 like at your core identity that I didn't know. And you're 16, 17 326 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,540 years old. The gratitude that you can feel from parents 327 00:16:13,810 --> 00:16:18,220 walking out with this like disarmed conversation. Here is 328 00:16:18,220 --> 00:16:21,280 who my kid is, potentially at the core, and this is now going 329 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,890 to shape our conversations moving forward, when we look at 330 00:16:23,890 --> 00:16:28,630 schools, has been just like, heartwarming and a privilege to 331 00:16:28,630 --> 00:16:28,810 watch. 332 00:16:29,470 --> 00:16:31,750 And it makes it about self discovery. I think so often, 333 00:16:31,750 --> 00:16:34,420 like a, with our juniors, a junior college, meaning, feels 334 00:16:34,420 --> 00:16:37,360 so like, process, and who are your teacher recommenders, and 335 00:16:37,450 --> 00:16:41,410 what SAT score. And I felt like for moments, kids were leaving 336 00:16:41,410 --> 00:16:43,750 our office, and I'm like, they don't know themselves any 337 00:16:43,750 --> 00:16:47,260 better. And now I feel like there's this joy of just leaving 338 00:16:47,260 --> 00:16:49,720 that office being like, I feel like I have a focus now I never 339 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,600 thought about values. This is important to me. So how do I use 340 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,200 this as like a lens for the rest of my search. Or even for like, 341 00:16:56,230 --> 00:16:58,690 what am I going to do this summer, or what courses should I 342 00:16:58,690 --> 00:17:01,900 take as a senior? There's this guiding principle. 343 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,720 And I just love the fact that I think that kids and families are 344 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,930 leaving our offices like we know each other a little bit better. 345 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,120 I know myself a little bit better, because I think that 346 00:17:10,150 --> 00:17:14,140 that's what's gotten lost in this. It should be about joy and 347 00:17:14,140 --> 00:17:17,920 growth and discovery and learning, and it's just about 348 00:17:17,980 --> 00:17:21,640 this relentless push for excellence and like, I'm gonna 349 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,240 take that AP course because I want six AP courses senior year 350 00:17:25,390 --> 00:17:27,970 to get into that school. And it's like, but why didn't you 351 00:17:27,970 --> 00:17:31,990 take a computer design course? Because you love creativity and 352 00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:34,690 beauty, and that means so much to you. You now don't have that 353 00:17:34,690 --> 00:17:37,810 space in your life to, like, live your value and be yourself 354 00:17:37,810 --> 00:17:39,550 and care for yourself, and I think that's part of the 355 00:17:39,550 --> 00:17:40,120 problem. 356 00:17:40,420 --> 00:17:43,660 Have you found a sweet spot for starting these conversations? 357 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,360 Have you just kind of been doing it with juniors? Because that 358 00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:49,480 feels very timely, juniors and seniors, or are you starting 359 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,000 earlier than that, so that they have time to explore those 360 00:17:52,030 --> 00:17:53,080 values a little bit more? 361 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:58,030 That is such a good question, because we have plans. But for 362 00:17:58,030 --> 00:18:02,440 now, we've been starting with juniors, but we've been also 363 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,140 doing it with seniors as they're trying to decide, like at least 364 00:18:05,140 --> 00:18:08,470 last year, what schools, which school might I want to pick from 365 00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:10,810 out of the ones I've been admitted to. We've revisited 366 00:18:10,810 --> 00:18:14,740 this. But our hope is this is going to start sooner for the 367 00:18:14,740 --> 00:18:17,680 students in our community, because I think some students 368 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,490 can come into a junior meeting, right, and talk values. They're 369 00:18:21,490 --> 00:18:24,400 ready, right? And one of the students that I had in my office 370 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,940 recently, we do some probing questions too, because you can 371 00:18:27,940 --> 00:18:29,860 kind of get to see that look on their face and they're like, I'm 372 00:18:29,860 --> 00:18:32,530 not really sure what you mean by core values. So we roll it back 373 00:18:32,530 --> 00:18:36,100 a little bit. And today, did some work on like, Okay, who do 374 00:18:36,100 --> 00:18:39,100 you who do you admire in your life? Like, what are you doing 375 00:18:39,100 --> 00:18:42,400 outside of school? What sparks joy for you? And that helps, but 376 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,470 we would like to start those conversations sooner. 377 00:18:44,530 --> 00:18:46,660 So building like, we're working to build a pretty intentional 378 00:18:46,660 --> 00:18:49,510 like counseling curriculum at our school. Like, how do we 379 00:18:49,510 --> 00:18:52,990 plant the seed in ninth grade? And I will add not just stuff 380 00:18:52,990 --> 00:18:56,110 for students, like we do evening programs for parents, and we're 381 00:18:56,110 --> 00:18:58,810 starting to infuse this now in sophomore year. 382 00:18:59,290 --> 00:19:01,720 Especially because you can see how meaningful of a conversation 383 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,780 it is between those two students and that the parent is walking 384 00:19:04,780 --> 00:19:07,630 out changed. Like, if you can start changing their perspective 385 00:19:07,630 --> 00:19:10,300 or getting them looking inside in ninth grade, that would be 386 00:19:10,300 --> 00:19:12,160 huge for conversations that are to come. 387 00:19:12,460 --> 00:19:14,800 Yep. And then I think families are having this conversation at 388 00:19:14,830 --> 00:19:17,230 home, because you're also giving parents the tools to be like, 389 00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:20,800 talk about these things. Talk about what lights you up inside, 390 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:22,990 what are the skills that you feel like you're developing? 391 00:19:23,020 --> 00:19:24,910 What are the clubs and activities that you want to be 392 00:19:24,910 --> 00:19:27,850 doing? And I think that's where, like, the cultural shift comes 393 00:19:27,850 --> 00:19:31,720 in. And it takes time, a lot of time, but I think if we were 394 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,300 working backwards to slowly bring that in, starting as like, 395 00:19:34,330 --> 00:19:37,810 eighth graders rising into ninth grade. Not that everyone will 396 00:19:37,810 --> 00:19:40,000 always subscribe to this, right? You're always going to have 397 00:19:40,270 --> 00:19:42,820 those who think prestige is the most important thing, but. 398 00:19:43,090 --> 00:19:46,360 Is that one of the values in the deck that they could even name? 399 00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:47,500 Yeah, it is. 400 00:19:47,500 --> 00:19:49,090 I love that you asked that. 401 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,390 I mean, then you really get to see, okay, this is important to 402 00:19:52,390 --> 00:19:53,800 them, so let's do it. 403 00:19:54,070 --> 00:19:57,520 But full disclosure, we use these cards that we created, 404 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,520 right on the back, you flip them, a QR code takes you to 405 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:02,980 this curated list of schools that we've developed. But the 406 00:20:02,980 --> 00:20:04,660 prestige card doesn't take you to them. 407 00:20:04,990 --> 00:20:08,770 Oh, tell me where it takes you. It's like, so you got poked 408 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,530 thing like, this is what we're telling you not to do. 409 00:20:11,620 --> 00:20:12,190 Yeah, right. 410 00:20:12,370 --> 00:20:15,970 Well, we wrote, like, a very heartfelt article that is very 411 00:20:15,970 --> 00:20:18,760 aligned to your first question about sort of where we came 412 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,030 from. Mine was about the bulletin board and high school. 413 00:20:22,450 --> 00:20:25,360 Mine was about, like, I just had a student, you know, talking 414 00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:27,430 about, we should roll out the red carpet for every student and 415 00:20:27,430 --> 00:20:30,460 celebrate all college acceptances. So we both shared 416 00:20:30,460 --> 00:20:34,840 that perspective in this article to offer some tips, then to say, 417 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,540 maybe instead of thinking about prestige, here's another 418 00:20:37,540 --> 00:20:40,270 perspective we want to offer you to consider. 419 00:20:40,390 --> 00:20:43,060 And it's important that they're honest, and they do pull it if 420 00:20:43,060 --> 00:20:45,190 that's how they feel. Because I think the other thing that 421 00:20:45,340 --> 00:20:49,750 people sometimes trip over with us is we're not saying that you 422 00:20:49,750 --> 00:20:53,260 should forget prestigious schools. We're saying your How 423 00:20:53,260 --> 00:20:57,010 Come behind it has to be solid. If there's an Ivy League school 424 00:20:57,010 --> 00:21:00,160 that you want to go to, but that Ivy League school really does 425 00:21:00,460 --> 00:21:03,520 honor your values, and you can demonstrate how come and the 426 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,580 why, if I say, How come you want to go to Penn, Harvard, Yale, 427 00:21:06,580 --> 00:21:09,730 and you've got a good answer besides it's a good school, then 428 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,550 maybe there is value there for you, and you shouldn't cross 429 00:21:12,550 --> 00:21:15,220 that off your list. But it also shouldn't be the only school, 430 00:21:15,310 --> 00:21:17,140 the only type of school on your list. 431 00:21:17,140 --> 00:21:20,620 Yeah, you're able to see the maturity in them, being able to 432 00:21:20,650 --> 00:21:24,310 elaborate on that answer, or kind of point them into some 433 00:21:24,310 --> 00:21:27,730 other directions, of say, hey, let's examine this and see if 434 00:21:27,730 --> 00:21:30,340 that's how you really feel. Like to me, it doesn't sound like 435 00:21:30,340 --> 00:21:31,930 that, because you don't really have answers for that. 436 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,590 Okay, I know you haven't been doing it for super long in your 437 00:21:35,590 --> 00:21:38,620 schools, but take the mental health piece with this. Like, 438 00:21:38,620 --> 00:21:42,040 are you seeing a shift in students' mental health, or it 439 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,400 might be too soon, maybe, to see that, or what has that looked 440 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,180 like since they've been looking at some of the more intrinsic 441 00:21:49,180 --> 00:21:52,120 values than extrinsic in their college search? How does that 442 00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:53,050 affect their mental health? 443 00:21:53,290 --> 00:21:56,380 Yeah, there was a student who came to do it an assignment for 444 00:21:56,380 --> 00:21:59,650 a class about starting to build a college list as a junior. And 445 00:21:59,650 --> 00:22:02,020 I remember coming in, and she's just, like, paralyzed, like, I 446 00:22:02,020 --> 00:22:05,350 don't even know where to start. There's like, over 4200 colleges 447 00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:08,440 feels so overwhelming. I feel like, left out. My peers know 448 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,990 about schools. I don't like, I just don't want to do this. So 449 00:22:10,990 --> 00:22:14,620 we did the card sort and linked her to our like website with all 450 00:22:14,620 --> 00:22:16,390 these school college profiles and everything. 451 00:22:16,690 --> 00:22:19,780 And just to see, like, a student soften in the moment and 452 00:22:19,780 --> 00:22:22,540 shoulders go down and be like, wow, there's like, places I'm 453 00:22:22,540 --> 00:22:25,150 excited about. I can go into my next class and we're going to 454 00:22:25,150 --> 00:22:28,210 talk about college lists. And be like, you know, I looked at this 455 00:22:28,210 --> 00:22:31,120 website, I found 10 schools that I really like, and here's why. 456 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,450 And to think about how that impacts peers, then too, to be 457 00:22:34,450 --> 00:22:37,840 like, here's how I found them. So I think about the intensity 458 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,140 that students feel at the gate, like the pressure of I have to 459 00:22:41,140 --> 00:22:44,530 figure this out, and it feels so overwhelming, choice overload, 460 00:22:44,860 --> 00:22:48,610 to then do it this way, softens it. And you just find students 461 00:22:48,610 --> 00:22:52,120 be like, Okay, this is doable. I can figure this out, and you're 462 00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:55,990 just having a warmer, more heartwarming, fun, joyful 463 00:22:55,990 --> 00:22:56,740 conversation. 464 00:22:56,740 --> 00:22:59,860 I was just gonna say like you as a counselor, are enjoying your 465 00:22:59,860 --> 00:23:02,830 job more because you're having richer conversations. You're not 466 00:23:02,830 --> 00:23:05,170 the robot who's going through the checklist of things you have 467 00:23:05,170 --> 00:23:07,420 to get through, because there are all those things that we 468 00:23:07,420 --> 00:23:09,130 have to get through, but you're getting to have, like, the real 469 00:23:09,130 --> 00:23:11,920 conversations with students and seeing them, like you said, 470 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,010 seeing their shoulders relaxing, their guard come down, that's 471 00:23:15,010 --> 00:23:16,780 really rewarding as a high school counselor. 472 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:17,560 It really is. 473 00:23:17,590 --> 00:23:19,750 And you're facilitating. Like, I think the beauty of like, using 474 00:23:19,750 --> 00:23:23,320 our counseling skills to navigate complex and difficult 475 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,440 conversations between students and parents and students who 476 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,740 come in carrying that weight. I feel at the end of those 477 00:23:29,740 --> 00:23:32,830 meetings, I'm like, no longer this robot who's like, and now 478 00:23:32,860 --> 00:23:36,880 take an SAT. I'm like, wow, that was using some real counseling 479 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,180 skills, and kids feel better. 480 00:23:40,210 --> 00:23:44,050 Yeah, there was a student this week that I had done it with, 481 00:23:44,050 --> 00:23:48,460 and part of our process is this set of questions. So let's say 482 00:23:48,460 --> 00:23:50,830 the 15 schools that we have on the list for whatever reason, 483 00:23:50,830 --> 00:23:53,170 maybe geographically, demographically, whatever it 484 00:23:53,170 --> 00:23:56,650 might be, size, it's not the right fit for you. So you know 485 00:23:56,650 --> 00:24:01,270 your value is career, let's say, but you're struggling to find a 486 00:24:01,270 --> 00:24:04,870 school beyond our list that might fit that. We have 15ish 487 00:24:05,290 --> 00:24:09,490 questions, 15-20 questions per value for you to take with you 488 00:24:09,490 --> 00:24:13,000 to determine how is this value showing up on a college campus. 489 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:17,230 So this student this week had their three values, and we went 490 00:24:17,230 --> 00:24:20,200 through these set of questions for each value, and he had 491 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,380 pulled, like, two or three questions from each value list, 492 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,740 created his own question list with his mom, like, Oh, I think 493 00:24:26,740 --> 00:24:28,540 these would be the questions that would really help me 494 00:24:28,540 --> 00:24:32,050 identify. And he was like, I'm so excited to go to colleges now 495 00:24:32,050 --> 00:24:34,780 and make them super uncomfortable and hold Career 496 00:24:34,780 --> 00:24:38,530 Services accountable with these really tough questions on like, 497 00:24:38,530 --> 00:24:42,730 how is career showing up on your campus as a value. And I know 498 00:24:42,730 --> 00:24:46,870 now Mrs. Vallier, if they can't answer it, maybe that's not the 499 00:24:46,870 --> 00:24:49,450 right school for me, because this is, this is hyper important 500 00:24:49,450 --> 00:24:53,980 to me. And I think giving the students that sense of control 501 00:24:54,250 --> 00:24:59,170 and power on a college campus also brings the mental health 502 00:24:59,230 --> 00:25:00,250 into perspective. 503 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,710 Yeah. You put kids back in control. 504 00:25:03,820 --> 00:25:06,820 Because they're probably frozen, again going on these college 505 00:25:06,820 --> 00:25:09,490 tours. It's a big group setting. They're with other parents who 506 00:25:09,490 --> 00:25:13,150 are holding those prestige values up high. And then they 507 00:25:13,150 --> 00:25:16,270 shrink back. They don't ask questions on the tour. They just 508 00:25:16,510 --> 00:25:20,260 blend in with everybody else. If they go in equipped, they know 509 00:25:20,260 --> 00:25:22,930 what questions to ask. They know what questions to ask for their 510 00:25:22,930 --> 00:25:26,290 specific needs. That's going to be a much more meaningful tour, 511 00:25:26,500 --> 00:25:29,380 more memorable. They're going to walk away like, I can either 512 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,350 check yes on that or cross it off my list because it really 513 00:25:32,350 --> 00:25:34,600 didn't align like the website said that it did. 514 00:25:35,230 --> 00:25:37,840 Exactly. And in this meeting, we spend a lot of time talking 515 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,870 about how colleges are trying to sell you and you have to try to 516 00:25:40,870 --> 00:25:44,020 weed through, like, Is this really true for me and what I'm 517 00:25:44,020 --> 00:25:48,130 looking for? And the student had recently been to Goucher, and 518 00:25:48,130 --> 00:25:50,290 was sitting there going, you know what? He gave like a shout 519 00:25:50,290 --> 00:25:53,020 out to Goucher. And was like, they did a great job answering 520 00:25:53,020 --> 00:25:55,360 these questions, and I didn't even realize they were doing it. 521 00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:58,300 But had I had this list, this would have been a great fit for 522 00:25:58,300 --> 00:26:01,150 me. And so I think there's power, yeah, and giving students 523 00:26:01,150 --> 00:26:03,430 control, not only with the colleges, but sometimes with 524 00:26:03,430 --> 00:26:04,300 their families. 525 00:26:04,630 --> 00:26:07,240 I was just gonna say, with their parents, they're able to stand 526 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,240 up for themselves and say, No, this is a good fit because of 527 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,030 XYZ. Like, if they get bombarded at the dinner table with 528 00:26:13,030 --> 00:26:15,670 questions and they don't know the answers to that, then they 529 00:26:15,670 --> 00:26:19,330 shrink back there too. And their parents run the process, and we 530 00:26:19,330 --> 00:26:21,850 all know we want students to be leading this process. 531 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:22,630 1000%. 532 00:26:24,310 --> 00:26:26,620 I'm sure you'll get the parents filling out the applications and 533 00:26:26,620 --> 00:26:28,570 the scholarships and the... 534 00:26:28,570 --> 00:26:31,120 We'll have a conversation like, well, WE have the SAT this 535 00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:32,140 Saturday. And it's like... 536 00:26:32,470 --> 00:26:33,550 Oh, are you taking it? 537 00:26:35,140 --> 00:26:37,030 Didn't know that allowed that now, but yeah. 538 00:26:37,210 --> 00:26:41,860 We, yes. Like, I get it. You are, you have a big investment 539 00:26:41,860 --> 00:26:42,580 in this, but... 540 00:26:42,580 --> 00:26:45,880 The level of WE, but it's we are not applying. They're applying. 541 00:26:46,690 --> 00:26:52,390 It's the same everywhere, isn't it? That's reassuring. Well, I 542 00:26:52,390 --> 00:26:54,610 feel like we covered a lot of different things. Is there 543 00:26:54,610 --> 00:26:57,730 anything I didn't ask you about that you wanted to touch on 544 00:26:57,730 --> 00:26:59,890 before I have you tell the listeners where they can find 545 00:27:00,250 --> 00:27:03,670 the values cards and and find more about what y'all are doing? 546 00:27:03,940 --> 00:27:07,240 You know, I think, just like one thing, we all remember being new 547 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,140 counselors, and for those of us who are put on the spot to 548 00:27:11,140 --> 00:27:15,280 create a college list your first year or two, that can feel so 549 00:27:15,340 --> 00:27:16,090 daunting. 550 00:27:16,210 --> 00:27:19,360 They want you to come up right there without googling anything 551 00:27:19,450 --> 00:27:21,220 like you've got the Rolodex in your head. 552 00:27:21,610 --> 00:27:25,180 That's right. Jared and I spend a lot of time talking about how 553 00:27:25,180 --> 00:27:28,750 we wish we had access to something like this that's not 554 00:27:28,750 --> 00:27:32,590 as cumbersome as like, the list generators that you'll find 555 00:27:32,590 --> 00:27:36,190 online. This one's more meaningful, and I just think for 556 00:27:36,190 --> 00:27:39,400 a new counselor, this could be a really helpful resource. For a 557 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,790 seasoned counselor, it's a great resource for again, those hidden 558 00:27:42,790 --> 00:27:46,030 gems, to really hone in on mental health and think about 559 00:27:46,030 --> 00:27:50,260 like, let's refresh my practice and how I'm approaching college 560 00:27:50,260 --> 00:27:50,980 meetings. 561 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:52,900 Yeah, make it fun for you again. 562 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,680 This feels like a real, tangible counseling tool. You said it 563 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,110 came from an idea that you had in private practice, and when 564 00:27:59,110 --> 00:28:01,450 you said that, I thought of a friend of mine who is former 565 00:28:01,450 --> 00:28:03,970 school counselor in private practice now, who does a lot of 566 00:28:03,970 --> 00:28:07,480 career counseling with values cards, and adults still need 567 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,940 help with it, too. So like, let's start that conversation 568 00:28:09,970 --> 00:28:10,450 early. 569 00:28:10,780 --> 00:28:12,940 That's what I was going to say. Like, I've worked with so many 570 00:28:12,940 --> 00:28:16,480 adults who we would do a value sort. And like, they would come 571 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,310 to me because, like, I'm so unhappy in my job, and they're 572 00:28:18,340 --> 00:28:21,640 35, 40 years old. We would do the value sort and I just, they 573 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,850 would always be like, Oh, so this is why I hate my job. 574 00:28:24,910 --> 00:28:27,520 Because it doesn't align with me at all. 575 00:28:27,550 --> 00:28:31,000 So then we're thinking like, Well, then why are we not having 576 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,430 these conversations starting much earlier, teaching the 577 00:28:33,430 --> 00:28:37,930 students, you know, the value in values driven decision making? 578 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,250 And then ultimately, like, I just want kids to be happier and 579 00:28:42,250 --> 00:28:45,250 healthier and then become happier and healthier adults. 580 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,030 That's what this is all about. Like, maybe then we see less 581 00:28:49,030 --> 00:28:52,810 people at 35 or 40 being like, I have to completely pivot and 582 00:28:52,810 --> 00:28:56,500 give away a lot of my time and probably money to maybe go back 583 00:28:56,500 --> 00:28:59,770 to school or pursue a different path, because we just have been 584 00:28:59,770 --> 00:29:01,990 creating this pressure cooker of like, follow these steps, do 585 00:29:01,990 --> 00:29:05,920 this thing. We just want kids to be happier and healthier. That's 586 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,440 what this is all coming from. We want to change that whole 587 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,600 narrative. You're worth more than a college acceptance 588 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:10,990 letter. 589 00:29:11,260 --> 00:29:15,370 I love that. Before we go, I am curious, what is your number one 590 00:29:15,370 --> 00:29:18,220 value in your values cards? Do you each have one that's like, 591 00:29:18,220 --> 00:29:19,180 this is my number one? 592 00:29:19,630 --> 00:29:22,720 We do. We like, tested each other, but we each, we have, we 593 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,000 have top ones. Do you want to share yours first? 594 00:29:25,300 --> 00:29:29,320 Yeah, oh, gosh, I have to pick one? One? We picked three. 595 00:29:29,350 --> 00:29:30,460 Okay, three. Tell us your three. 596 00:29:30,700 --> 00:29:33,730 Okay. My mine was social connection, fun and adventure. 597 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,600 Okay. And did you feel like your college experience was that? Or 598 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,450 this is like, going forward, if you were to do it again, those 599 00:29:40,450 --> 00:29:42,280 are things that you would know that you value. 600 00:29:42,580 --> 00:29:46,420 I am very thankful for where I went to school. It gave me a lot 601 00:29:46,420 --> 00:29:49,660 and pushed me outside my comfort zone, probably because it's not 602 00:29:49,660 --> 00:29:53,830 where I should have gone. So it made me look for my people that 603 00:29:53,830 --> 00:29:57,250 weren't easily found, and the people that I found are like my 604 00:29:57,460 --> 00:30:00,850 my people to this day. Tthey are not counselors, they will spend 605 00:30:00,850 --> 00:30:03,730 time to listen to this podcast, because they're just my people 606 00:30:03,730 --> 00:30:07,480 now. But I don't think that those values would have led me 607 00:30:07,540 --> 00:30:11,140 there. But what I think it did for me, thinking back on my 608 00:30:11,140 --> 00:30:14,140 life, is I found those values there. 609 00:30:14,290 --> 00:30:17,200 Like they make sense to you now, and they kind of were always 610 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:17,770 there. 611 00:30:17,980 --> 00:30:21,640 I found them on campus, even though the campus, like, I 612 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,180 wouldn't have put that school in these slots, I would have put 613 00:30:25,180 --> 00:30:27,640 Bucknell in other spots, and it is in other spots, but not in 614 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,200 those slots, but I found them there. 615 00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:33,430 Yeah. One of mine is also social connection. The other is 616 00:30:33,430 --> 00:30:37,030 creativity, and the last is activism. And I think similarly, 617 00:30:37,030 --> 00:30:40,450 I don't know if I went into my search being like, it needs to 618 00:30:40,450 --> 00:30:44,020 be that. But like, for me, a driving force was music. Like, 619 00:30:44,020 --> 00:30:47,500 how can I be heavily involved on campus and music without maybe 620 00:30:47,500 --> 00:30:50,920 being a music major? And that was part of my life, and that's 621 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,160 what I found at Albright completely. And the social 622 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,580 connection piece too. Like, it was small, and I was able to 623 00:30:57,580 --> 00:30:59,890 make some of the best friends of my life there. So again, it's 624 00:30:59,890 --> 00:31:02,650 like, in retrospect, I'm like, yeah, a lot of that was really 625 00:31:02,650 --> 00:31:05,410 present. I wish I had the language or that somebody made 626 00:31:05,410 --> 00:31:08,320 me do this so I could have named it, because I actually picked a 627 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,350 different school. And then my mom made me go back to Albright 628 00:31:11,350 --> 00:31:13,630 for, I don't know if I ever even told you this story. My mom made 629 00:31:13,630 --> 00:31:16,390 me go back for one more tour. And we were standing somewhere, 630 00:31:16,390 --> 00:31:18,850 and I just looked at it. I was like, What was I thinking? Like, 631 00:31:18,850 --> 00:31:20,830 it's here. It's always been here. 632 00:31:21,220 --> 00:31:24,250 That's cool. I like hearing that and just seeing how that has 633 00:31:24,250 --> 00:31:27,640 shaped you as counselors, and then even how you're able to be 634 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,340 reflective when you think back to your time in high school and 635 00:31:30,340 --> 00:31:33,730 your college search process. And it's neat how, like that theme 636 00:31:33,730 --> 00:31:36,820 just kind of ties its way back through and, kind of like our 637 00:31:36,820 --> 00:31:39,100 strengths, like, I think they evolve over time, but I think, 638 00:31:39,100 --> 00:31:41,950 like, we've got these pieces of our personality that make us who 639 00:31:41,950 --> 00:31:44,500 we are, whether they're our strengths or our values, and we 640 00:31:44,500 --> 00:31:48,100 see them nurtured if we spend the time doing that, spend some 641 00:31:48,100 --> 00:31:51,850 time reflecting on that. So your cards are really cool to give 642 00:31:51,850 --> 00:31:55,660 students that opportunity to think and reflect, and really 643 00:31:55,660 --> 00:31:59,500 cool for counselors too, just to be a tangible tool to do more 644 00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:01,510 counseling, because that's what we're always wanting to do. We 645 00:32:01,510 --> 00:32:05,260 want that time with students, and those direct conversations 646 00:32:05,260 --> 00:32:07,060 where we get to feel like we're making a difference. And it 647 00:32:07,060 --> 00:32:11,830 sounds like your values tool is really doing that. So thank you 648 00:32:11,830 --> 00:32:14,050 so much for coming on and sharing about that. 649 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,950 Yeah, we love talking about it. I mean, I think as counselors, 650 00:32:16,950 --> 00:32:20,100 too, we, I don't think we've met a counselor yet who hasn't been 651 00:32:20,100 --> 00:32:23,700 like, yes, we need this, but we also haven't met a counselor 652 00:32:23,700 --> 00:32:26,730 that's like, oh yes, something like this exists yet. So I think 653 00:32:26,730 --> 00:32:29,850 it's a tangible answer to a problem that I think most of us 654 00:32:29,850 --> 00:32:30,540 feel in the field. 655 00:32:31,660 --> 00:32:35,230 Or if they had it, they would go, Oh yes, this is just making 656 00:32:35,260 --> 00:32:36,910 what I'm already doing better. 657 00:32:37,150 --> 00:32:37,600 Yeah. 658 00:32:37,810 --> 00:32:40,660 Well, I will link where they can find you in the show notes. But 659 00:32:40,660 --> 00:32:43,960 do you just want to tell us about website, Instagram, 660 00:32:44,170 --> 00:32:44,950 places? 661 00:32:44,980 --> 00:32:47,650 It's called Forget the Rankings, the values driven college 662 00:32:47,650 --> 00:32:51,370 search. So you can go to www.forgettherankings.com. We're 663 00:32:51,370 --> 00:32:54,070 on Instagram as forgettherankings, Tiktok, you 664 00:32:54,070 --> 00:32:55,600 can find us on all social media. 665 00:32:55,690 --> 00:32:59,320 Okay, we'll make sure all the listeners have that. Thank you 666 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,130 so much, Jen and Jared. This was a rich conversation, and I'm so 667 00:33:03,130 --> 00:33:05,620 glad that we got to meet and talk about this, because I think 668 00:33:05,620 --> 00:33:07,390 it's important for students and counselors. 669 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:07,990 Us too. 670 00:33:07,990 --> 00:33:08,410 Thank you. 671 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,210 I so enjoyed this topic, and you could honestly just hear how 672 00:33:13,210 --> 00:33:16,510 passionate Jen and Jared were about this. It all just feels 673 00:33:16,510 --> 00:33:20,530 extremely relatable. I know that I always laugh when I hear 674 00:33:20,530 --> 00:33:23,050 conversations happening on the other side of the country that I 675 00:33:23,050 --> 00:33:26,290 know are happening on this side too. It's like we're all in this 676 00:33:26,290 --> 00:33:29,950 together. Cue the high school musical soundtrack. Anyways, be 677 00:33:29,950 --> 00:33:32,560 sure to check out Jen and Jared resources at Forget the 678 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,840 Rankings, and show some love to two fellow high school 679 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,600 counselors who are being problem solvers and go getters in their 680 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,220 school. We'll see you next week. 681 00:33:40,750 --> 00:33:43,180 Thanks for listening to today's episode of High School 682 00:33:43,180 --> 00:33:46,510 Counseling Conversations. All the links I talked about today 683 00:33:46,510 --> 00:33:48,760 can be found in the show notes and also at 684 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,290 counselorclique.com/podcast. Be sure to hit follow wherever you 685 00:33:53,290 --> 00:33:56,380 listen to your podcast so that you never miss a new episode. 686 00:33:56,950 --> 00:33:59,590 Connect with me over on Instagram. Feel free to send me 687 00:33:59,590 --> 00:34:04,660 a DM @counselorclique, that's C, L, I, Q, U, E. I'll see you next 688 00:34:04,660 --> 00:34:04,990 week.