PART ONE FINAL

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 6, Episode 11 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Eric: And, there's people swirling around me and I remember there was, there was this bodybuilder type guy and he's standing above me while I'm lying on the, on the gurney. And he, he looks, he's just staring at me and I asked him, what's his role here?

[00:00:24] And he said, I'm a respiratory therapist. I step in if you stop breathing. And this notion of, not breathing, which wasn't something that I had really thought about, terrified me and I'm shaking on the table and the doctor looks at me and he says, um, Oh, you know, don't be nervous. I've only popped two lungs in my life, in my career.

[00:00:51] And of course that wasn't something that had entered my mind that that was a possibility. And I am just in a very dark place. And in this moment of this dark place, my inner critic shows up.

[00:01:08] Ross: Pea Soupers, in this episode I welcome back Dr. Eric Goodman to the podcast. Eric is an expert in treating anxiety and OCD, an author, and a pioneer in the use of acceptance and commitment therapy and compassion focused therapy, that's ACT and CFT, in both his work with his patients and his writing. Eric's people soup ingredients are anxiety and compassion, with a healthy sprinkle of vulnerability.

[00:01:35] you'll hear Eric talk about his near daily cold water immersion. And dear listener, you'll also hear how I commit to having a go. Would I let you down, pea soupers? You'll find out at the end of the episode. Eric also talks about his fear of flying, which developed as a young man, and one of the darkest moments of his life on the operating table, It's a conversation full of wisdom and vulnerability.

[00:01:58] [00:02:00] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, welcome! It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from behavioural science and beyond. For those of you who are regular Peasoopers, thanks for tuning in again. We love it that you're part of our community. A quick scoot over to the news desk.

[00:02:30] I'd love it if you checked out my new website, which you can find at rossmcintosh.co.Uk. And there's plenty of information to browse, and you can even sign up for my newsletter. Thanks

[00:02:40] And just a note that this episode was recorded in the run up to the U. S. elections, and I also had some problems with the sound quality at my end, which I've done my best to address. So let's crack on. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to the first part of my chat with Eric Goodman.

[00:03:01] Dr. Eric Goodman, welcome back to PeopleSoup.

[00:03:04] Eric: Thank you, Ross. It's always nice to be here.

[00:03:08] Ross: Well, we're delighted

[00:03:09] you agreed to come back. Now, you'll be used to my research

[00:03:12] department, Eric, and they've done a bit more digging on you to find out some interesting snippets. So, I'm going to have a go at presenting them back to you.

[00:03:21] Eric: Sounds good.

[00:03:22] Ross: So, it says here, Eric is a licensed psychologist and author of three books.

[00:03:26] The first one, Social Courage, Coping and Thriving with the Reality of Social Anxiety. Number two, Your Anxiety Beast and You, A Compassionate Guide to Living in an Increasingly Anxious World.

[00:03:38] And that one we spoke about in a previous episode, which I'll link to in the show notes. And the new book, The Mindful Freakout, A Rescue Manual for Being at Your Best When Life is at its Worst. So folks, as you may have gathered, Eric specializes in the treatment of anxiety disorders and obsessive compulsive disorder. And I'd just like to say I've learned so much from [00:04:00] conversations with Eric and his

[00:04:01] writing. His expertise runs deep and he writes and presents in a super accessible and practical way, as you're about to find out. He is in private practice in San Luis Obispo in California and an intermittent lecturer at Cal Poly in the psychology graduate program. How are we doing so far, Eric?

[00:04:19] Eric: So far, so good.

[00:04:20] Ross: Excellent.

[00:04:21] Eric earned his Ph. D. at Northeastern University in

[00:04:24] Boston and taught there as an adjunct faculty member. His primary

[00:04:28] treatment approach is cognitive behavioral therapy with an

[00:04:31] emphasis on exposure with response prevention and mindfulness acceptance based strategies including ACT and compassion focused therapy. In treating anxiety disorders, he believes that working collaboratively with clients is key for therapeutic success. Now, there's two other snippets that they've come up with, and I just wanted to run them past

[00:04:49] you. One is that you tend to start every

[00:04:53] day In a cold plunge bath at 7 degrees Celsius or 45 degrees Fahrenheit. And you do that most mornings.

[00:05:02] Eric: I, I do. My son started doing that,

[00:05:05] uh,

[00:05:06] about, uh, three years ago. And I thought,

[00:05:11] uh, I thought he had a screw loose or something for, for doing that. Cause he's getting

[00:05:16] up and it's, you know, in the, in the winter getting up, we're still dark out and

[00:05:21] very cold and, and

[00:05:23] goes and sits in this cold plunge. And, uh, He asked me if I would want to try it and I

[00:05:30] said I will never in my life try that.

[00:05:33] That

[00:05:33] just looks awful and I like warm

[00:05:35] water. but I began to notice that he had more energy and he was in a better mood and he was more focused. And so I thought I would give it a try and, and within a few days of doing it, this chronic pain that I had dealt with for 12 years and had seen multiple

[00:05:58] neurologists and, [00:06:00] and, other specialists

[00:06:01] And no, no one was

[00:06:03] able to touch that pain.

[00:06:04] And within a few days, the pain just disappeared. went away. and as long as I do it most days of the week, then the pain stays away. Um, so it's, it's, uh, it's been a

[00:06:18] life changing experience for me.

[00:06:21] Ross: Wow. And is this tub, is it outside,

[00:06:24] Eric?

[00:06:26] Eric: It is.

[00:06:26] Ross: Right. I'm just visualizing one in our

[00:06:29] garden

[00:06:29] now. Because I have to tell you, Eric,

[00:06:31] your initial reaction to your son doing this is probably mine.

[00:06:35] We're fortunate enough to have a swimming pool in our garden. It's not

[00:06:38] heated, but even in the hottest days of summer I will

[00:06:42] make

[00:06:42] what my husband calls camp noises when I immerse myself in the water, particularly when it reaches my nether regions.

[00:06:49] You'll find me making little sort of slightly hysterical noises. so I can't imagine seven degrees Celsius, but you've

[00:06:58] Eric: so part of the trick to it is using it as a mindfulness strategy. And you can do this with your pool as you, as you step in, notice the cold without hooking onto that story that your mind tells you that, that this is bad and you shouldn't feel it, but soften your muscles into it. The minute, so this is very actually relevant to some of the stuff that I

[00:07:27] write about that.

[00:07:29] The minute you struggle against the cold, your suffering

[00:07:33] just becomes immense. And so if you don't struggle, but you just stay with your breath, slow that exhale down and notice the cold without going to war with it and then just breathe with it,

[00:07:52] it's a completely

[00:07:53] First cold plunge

[00:07:53] Eric: different experience. Now, the first time I, I tried to get into

[00:07:59] [00:08:00] the cold plunge when I, when I thought I was wanted to get that benefit that my

[00:08:04] son was having, I stuck my foot

[00:08:07] in and I just, you know, I just tightened up and I yanked my, my leg out and I said, Nope,

[00:08:16] not, not doing this.

[00:08:18] and, and then. I really wanted to, to try it and get the benefit. And so that's when I started to use a more mindful approach

[00:08:27] and it makes a huge

[00:08:29] difference. Even now, you know, I do it most days of the

[00:08:32] week, but, but if I ever

[00:08:34] catch myself starting to

[00:08:36] struggle when I

[00:08:37] get in it, it's just this sense of, uh, overwhelming

[00:08:41] discomfort. But the minute you let go and you soften

[00:08:45] into it and you breathe, That sense of suffering goes, goes away completely for, for, for the most part. and I find it some of the most relaxing moments of my life.

[00:09:00] Ross: Well, Eric, you're a man I trust and respect, so I

[00:09:06] think I'm going to have to give it a

[00:09:07] go.

[00:09:08] Eric: Well, you got the pool, right? That's, that's, that's the hard part,

[00:09:13] right? And so now it's just really trying

[00:09:17] to, Allow, allow the cold to be there without making an enemy of it.

[00:09:23] Ross: Wow. Watch this space, PSupers. I'll keep you posted. And I'll keep you posted too,

[00:09:28] Eric.

[00:09:29] Eric: Sounds good.

[00:09:30] Ross: Eric, another thing the research department noticed was that They found out

[00:09:33] that you had a debilitating

[00:09:35] fear of flying in

[00:09:36] your early years. And it felt like that's

[00:09:39] really applicable to what we're going to be discussing.

[00:09:41] So is that true?

[00:09:43] Eric: I, I, I did. I studied, I studied abroad, as a freshman or sophomore in college. I was on a flight from, uh, from Beijing to, uh, to Hong Kong. And, uh. [00:10:00] Flying was always something that was very comfortable to me. And I loved turbulence because it, it just was this sense of being rocked to sleep.

[00:10:08] And so I'm deep asleep on this flight. And randomly I'm sitting next to my philosophy professor. And at some point in the flight, She shakes me rather firmly, shakes me awake and says we're not going to make it. We're not going to make it. and, you know, and her face is in my face and, and, and, and, uh, she just looks terrified.

[00:10:36] And I, I look around and everyone else on the plane is fine, right? No, no one else is, is, is freaking out. And we're flying through a storm, but. Again, it wasn't on my radar to be, uh, to be concerned about that. And, and so I tell her everything's fine. I fall back into this deep sleep only to be shaken awake very firmly.

[00:11:01] She says, we're, we're going down. and she's, she's having a panic attack. And, you know, what I now know is a panic attack. And she's just really, uh, behaving based on her threat system. And I tell her again, we're fine, I fall back to sleep. And about two or three other times in the flight she does this to me.

[00:11:27] And what I remember is being very annoyed because I just was very tired and wanted to sleep. Um, yeah. And, uh, didn't think much of it until the next time I got on a, on an airplane and I have my, my mother on one side of me and my grandmother's on the other side. I'm in the middle seat and we hit turbulence and, and again, I'm asleep.

[00:11:51] And, uh, my, uh, my mom and my grandmother, they each grabbed my arms on either side and give [00:12:00] it a tug out of their own fear of the turbulence. And that's when I had my first panic attack on, on an airplane. And then went on for about, Ten years of very, uh, uh, severe phobia flying any time on a plane, I would be having panic attacks, and, uh, if I had a flight in three months, I would be having nightmares and, and just, you know, losing sleep, in the, in the run up to the, uh, to the flight.

[00:12:32] And, uh, I just thought it was something that was never going to be able to get better. In fact, it was getting worse over the years. And then I started treating people for phobic stuff. And I just kind of compartmentalized my own phobia. And then I'm on a, I'm on a flight and we hit turbulence and I'm doing all the wrong things that you can do when you have a phobia to make it worse.

[00:12:59] And I just kind of had this aha moment. And I stopped struggling. I stopped doing all these safety behaviors. And it just sat and I just gave myself permission to feel anxious.

[00:13:13] And that sense of suffering just melted in half at that point. And, and, you know, a few flights of doing that. And my, uh, my phobia was about 50 percent better.

[00:13:25] and, then I just kind of plateaued for about a decade. And, and it wasn't until, I, I started to, to do more teaching on the subject of, of fears and phobias. And I got curious, why did I get stuck? And, and it wasn't that I had to get better than I got. So, you know, from an act standpoint.

[00:13:51] I'm now flying from A to B, I'm no longer having panic attacks, and I can, I can go where I want to go, but [00:14:00] it was, there still was this sense of suffering. but it was

[00:14:04] manageable, but I was curious and I wanted to know why, just for my own, uh, you know, benefit and, and, and, you know, when I go to help my clients and they're stuck, I want to know what's keeping them

[00:14:18] stuck. And so I go on a flight in, in kind of spectator mode where I just pledged, I was just going to watch everything I do on the, on the plane to see what am I doing

[00:14:30] that's inadvertently teaching my brain threat. And so I get on and the first thing I do is I put on very

[00:14:38] soothing music. And you might think, that that's a good strategy, but it was a control strategy.

[00:14:45] And I didn't think about it as a control strategy until that moment that I'm trying not to feel anxious on the plane by playing that music. But by doing that, I'm also thread associating anxiety. I'm telling my brain. That it's bad for me to feel anxious on the plane. And if it's bad to feel anxious on the plane, then you're going to feel anxious about your anxiety.

[00:15:10] You're going to, you're going to have more anxiety. And so I, I, I caught that and, and I noticed, we start to fly and I put on a, on a movie. And I try to imagine that I'm just on a bus watching a movie. And again, you might think that's helpful. And in the short term, it really

[00:15:27] is. But it's that also, it's that

[00:15:30] experiential avoidance where I'm trying to,

[00:15:35] uh, trick my

[00:15:36] brain in a way.

[00:15:38] And, and it's helpful in the

[00:15:39] moment. But what my brain needed to learn was flying is not a threat. And anxiety on a plane was not a threat. And so whenever I felt like I needed to, uh, bury myself in a movie, I would turn the

[00:15:57] movie off and I [00:16:00] would sit up in my seat and just notice I'm on a plane and notice that everything's fine.

[00:16:07] And there

[00:16:08] was a few other kind of subtle safety things I was doing and, and be able to catch that and, and play the rule of opposites, right? If I felt like I needed to, uh, distract myself, then I would pay more attention. and, uh, that, uh, Helped immensely, so did that over a few flights and now, I'm pretty much flying wherever in the world I want to fly without, my anxiety worrying so much about it, which is great.

[00:16:38] Ross: There's something you said in your initial response that you gave yourself permission to be anxious. I love that phrase.

[00:16:46] Eric: That's right.

[00:16:47] Well, so you know, our,

[00:16:50] our threat systems, right? Our, our

[00:16:52] anxiety

[00:16:53] systems, they're not sophisticated. They're not, they don't live or

[00:16:57] exist in the smart

[00:16:58] part of our brains. They're in a more primitive part. And what our anxiety.

[00:17:03] knows how to do is when it perceives something to be a threat, it activates fight or flight.

[00:17:11] And fight or flight is another word for anxiety. So if a bear is chasing me, it perceives that as a threat and it activates fight or flight gives me my best chance to survive. But if public speaking is a fear,

[00:17:26] is something that I

[00:17:27] treat as a threat, it's going to activate fight or flight for me to do

[00:17:32] battle against whatever the

[00:17:34] perceived threat is. But

[00:17:35] if my. If the threat is fear itself, doesn't have

[00:17:41] any other ways of handling it. So if the threat is fear, it's going to activate fear to combat the fear. As goofy as that sounds, that's what it does. So when you fear your fear, you have more fear.

[00:17:57] Absolutely.

[00:17:58] Eric: Like, like [00:18:00] I tell my clients, anxiety does not live in the

[00:18:02] smart part of the brain. It's very primitive.

[00:18:06] Ross: Was your experience with anxiety related to flying, was that part of the reason you started to move towards your specialism?

[00:18:14] Eric: I think my, my own phobic stuff made this more interesting to me. and I think people tend to specialize in whatever they find most interesting. So I'm not sure it was, it was the, the, the only

[00:18:29] reason why I became a, an anxiety specialist. Um,

[00:18:35] but, it

[00:18:36] was a reason.

[00:18:38] VR

[00:18:38] Ross: and just changing tack slightly, there's something we

[00:18:41] touched on in

[00:18:41] our first chat. Yeah. Yeah. And it

[00:18:43] intrigued me so much I'd like

[00:18:44] to come back to it

[00:18:46] And that was about your

[00:18:47] use of virtual reality in your, in your therapy and your treatment of people. I'd love to hear a bit more about that and if, I guess there may have been

[00:18:56] advances too since, since we last spoke.

[00:18:59] Eric: Well, I, I live in a small seaside college town. So if I have a client that has a phobia of, uh, going up in high elevators or being up in

[00:19:11] skyscrapers or things like that, that,

[00:19:14] it just doesn't exist where, where I live. so virtual reality is a

[00:19:20] way to help people face fears,

[00:19:23] of a wide

[00:19:25] variety of things just from the comfort of my own office. And can you describe to us how you might use it

[00:19:33] Ross: for say

[00:19:33] that, that fear of high, high buildings or elevators,

[00:19:36] how it, how it

[00:19:37] works with your clients?

[00:19:39] Eric: Yeah. So, you know, typically I talk to them about it and typically if they're not familiar with virtual reality, they think, well, this, you know, it's not real. Uh, I'm not actually going on a skyscraper, so it won't impact me. But the reality is, is that A [00:20:00] Well, done VR system

[00:20:02] is incredibly immersive, to

[00:20:04] where it, it feels like you're actually there.

[00:20:09] And, you know, our threat systems are primitive as, as I was saying, And, so it doesn't understand

[00:20:15] virtual reality. and

[00:20:17] so if your threat system thinks you're, you're on a, you know, a high place. It's going to?

[00:20:24] react in a similar way to it would if you were actually in that place. Because it it doesn't understand that these are just pixels.

[00:20:33] and

[00:20:34] and sound effects. So, um, Clients tend to

[00:20:39] enjoy it because I'll have them face their fear, whatever, whatever that might be, flying or

[00:20:45] heights or snakes and, and then I'll, uh, intersperse some fantastical, uh, VR game in it. You know, it's all right, you've done a great job facing your fears. Here's a little reward and

[00:20:59] then have them, uh, you know play a, uh, a really,

[00:21:03] uh, fun game. And that Helps make the experience more

[00:21:08] pleasant. And

[00:21:09] so people, uh, I think there, there is

[00:21:11] some

[00:21:12] research that

[00:21:13] if you don't hate the

[00:21:16] experience of exposure therapy,

[00:21:17] if you can actually find

[00:21:19] ways to uh, to have humor about it or or to,

[00:21:24] to even find it interesting and, and maybe

[00:21:26] on some level parts of it

[00:21:29] enjoyable,

[00:21:30] that there is an outcome benefit for that.

[00:21:33] Then, then if you

[00:21:34] do it, you, you just kind of hate the whole process.

[00:21:38] Ross: Well, that's, that's tremendous to

[00:21:39] hear and how useful that.

[00:21:41] that

[00:21:41] tech can be given,

[00:21:43] given where you are with no access to high buildings.

[00:21:46] Eric: Yeah.

[00:21:47] Yeah. It's, it's, it's a

[00:21:49] fun way to face a fear.

[00:21:51] Ross: And thinking about your approach where, particularly in this latest

[00:21:55] book, where you're blending ACT and CFT, when did you first [00:22:00] begin

[00:22:00] to? to explore that compatibility, that synergy between the two approaches. Cause I know it,

[00:22:06] was also in your, in your last book, but I just wondered where the origin

[00:22:09] story is.

[00:22:10] Trained as old school CBT guy

[00:22:10] Eric: yeah. Well, the origin story is, is kind of interesting. Um, for me at least, you know, I was trained as an old school CBT guy and CBT is all about, uh, you got to get rid of your symptoms. and of course the research shows is that you're going to, you're going to decrease your symptoms, but you're never going to get rid of a, uh, of a normal human emotion.

[00:22:34] Um, and I, uh, Trying to remember actually how I got into ACT. Uh, I was an early adopter. so I was, I was into ACT when, uh, ACT was the, the new kid on the block that CBT hated. They looked at it as, as a rival and, and, and the CBT

[00:22:53] people and the ACT people just could not stand each other. Um, and they would, they would, uh, have fierce debates at, uh, conferences.

[00:23:02] but I got into ACT and, and then did a, uh, a five day bootcamp with, uh, Steven Hayes and some of the other, uh, act, uh, pros. And it was just life changing, right? and, you know, if you're listeners know about ACT and, and you know, a bad act, this, this stuff is really life changing. When you stop struggling with your experience and, and.

[00:23:27] Open to it. It gives you freedom to be able to do the things you want to do in life. And, and the act people will call that psychological flexibility. And psychological flexibility is arguably the most important concept in, uh, in mental health. The ability to. feel what you feel, have whatever

[00:23:49] thoughts, you know, come to mind, yet choose your own direction in life. Because when we're not psychologically flexible, [00:24:00] we're going to be led around by our emotions and they're going to drive our behaviors. And sometimes that's going to be really good and other times not, not so much. And so I was, uh, I began to, uh, to, uh, work with act in my practice and I began to teach it to, to students.

[00:24:23] And when I started teaching act, no student had ever heard of it. Um, and, and, and now when I teach like my class now, everybody knows act, by the time they get to my class. so it's, it's, it's really out there, but anyways. At the ACT boot camp, I, I met, uh, Lynn Henderson, who's a psychologist in, uh, in the Berkeley area, California.

[00:24:50] And she invited me to, to this training by this guy, Paul Gilbert. That I had never heard of him and, you know, it was on compassion focused therapy. And I go, all right, well, I'm a therapist and compassion is probably a pretty good thing. And, and so, uh, I went to, to do it. And, and it's just a, just a really eye opening sort of, uh, training, on par, at least with, with what I got from, from the act work.

[00:25:21] just the concept that. you don't have to beat yourself up. and you can actually be an ally to yourself. that, that is a, it's a very transformative sort of thing. And it's, you know, it's, again, it's one thing to talk about another thing for, for someone to experience it. and so I, I left that and I had, was impressed with the research.

[00:25:46] So I started to practice I'm not sure if you've heard of the, the meta meditation.

[00:25:52] Ross: No, I don't think

[00:25:53] so.

[00:25:53] Eric: so it's a, it's a, it's an ancient form of compassionate mind training. it's where [00:26:00] you, you think about, uh, someone you care deeply about and you, uh, you just kind of bring them to mind and, and, and, and you practice, uh, wishing them, uh, to, to be free of, uh, suffering.

[00:26:16] And, then you, you, you move on to like, you know, someone who's not kind of on the periphery of your life and then you practice giving yourself some compassion. So it gets a lot harder with that because most people are really good at being compassionate to others and, and, and just. Not so good, uh, to say the least, at being self compassionate.

[00:26:40] And then you, uh, you give compassion to someone that has caused you difficulties in your life. Right, and so, when I do it, it's still a practice that I do every day, and now I think about, uh, Donald Trump, uh, because he's someone that, uh, when I think about him, it feels stressful, and I think about how, you know, he's just kind of who he is through factors that he had no say in.

[00:27:10] He didn't choose to have, uh, you know, cold, neglectful parents and to get shipped off to, to military school and, you know, the, the kind of the, the, the monstrous sort of person that he's, he's become, he, he didn't get a say in that. and, and so you practice with that and if there's someone that you're really upset with and you do this on a regular basis.

[00:27:36] that sense of suffering you have when you think about that person, it, it gets much easier. And then the, the, the last part of meta meditation is, you know, wishing all sentient life forms to be free of suffering. And again, you know, it may sound a little woo woo, but, but it's, Stood the test of the time.

[00:27:57] It's, it's been around for thousands of years and [00:28:00] there's a lot of research. on that particular exercise. And, and if you put a link to my website, I have recordings, audio recordings on my side of this one and in a number of other, compassion focused and act sorts of exercises. so anyway, so I started doing this meta meditation and I'm doing it every day and I'm thinking, Oh, that's nice.

[00:28:21] It's pleasant. I'm not overly impressed at first. but I'm doing it for a few months and, I like it, but, I'm not exactly sure what it's doing. And then I experienced one of the darkest times of my life. I had developed, the flu that turned into pneumonia. Yeah. And it was, I was getting sicker by the day.

[00:28:45] And, uh, because I had a kidney transplant when I was, uh, you know, uh, younger. I don't have a, an immune system that's good at fighting these things off. And I'm getting sicker and, my primary care doc gives me the talk about, you know, just to be on the safe side, you should probably get your affairs in order.

[00:29:07] And, uh, it was tough. and, uh, they, they find these kind of masses on my

[00:29:15] lungs. And my doctor says, you know, we gotta rule

[00:29:19] out, and I remember his words, I'm not sure why he said it that way, we gotta rule out inoperable lung cancer. And so like within a week, I'm sent to a pulmonologist who the next day has me do a lung biopsy.

[00:29:34] And I'm on the table and I am probably the most frightened I've ever been in my life. And, there's people swirling around me and I remember there was, there was this bodybuilder type guy and he's standing above me while I'm lying on the, on the gurney. And he, he looks, he's just staring at me and I asked him, what's his role [00:30:00] here?

[00:30:00] And he said, I'm a respiratory therapist. I step in if you stop breathing. And this notion of, not breathing, which wasn't something that I had really thought about, terrified me and I'm shaking on the table and the doctor looks at me and he says, um, Oh, you know, don't be nervous. I've only popped two lungs in my life, in my career.

[00:30:28] And of course that wasn't something that had entered my mind that that was a possibility. And I am just in a very dark place. And in this moment of this dark place, my inner critic shows up.

[00:30:45] And my inner critic just starts, beating me to a pulp psychologically. You know, you're, you're, you're, you're a therapist and you're, you're, you help people with anxiety and look at you, shaking on the table. and it's just kind of wailing on me. And all of a sudden this, this switch

[00:31:04] flips and and all that compassion work kicks in. And in my head, I kind of, step outside of, of the situation and I see this critic beaten up on me and I tell it to, uh, am I allowed to use salty language?

[00:31:23] Uh, I tell it, get the fuck away from him. It was just with this, just this, this anger and I turned to myself in my head and this is just kind of happening. And I imagine

[00:31:37] putting my hand on my

[00:31:39] shoulder and just saying, it can't be any different

[00:31:42] than it is. This is what this feels like, right?

[00:31:46] Everything that you've been through, it can't feel anything different.

[00:31:50] And with this, this, this tone

[00:31:53] that's kind of warm and encouraging, I,

[00:31:55] I felt

[00:31:57] this, thing that Paul Gilbert

[00:31:58] was talking about. I [00:32:00] felt This tremendous sense of inner strength. This wisdom to not judge myself. For the experience, because it literally could not have felt

[00:32:10] any different than it felt in anybody with my lived experience in that moment would have felt exactly the

[00:32:17] same way. And then I had this deep, deep commitment to wanting to be helpful. And, this sense of

[00:32:27] of peace And this decrease of suffering. Now, the fear was

[00:32:31] still there. but this sense of peace with it and And, And

[00:32:35] this, sense of courage, just flooded me in this and the, suffering just vanished.

[00:32:41] I go just completely in that moment.

[00:32:43] And, and then there's the part of my brain where the psychologist in

[00:32:46] me lives, who's just kind of noticing

[00:32:49] this and

[00:32:50] goes, what the

[00:32:51] hell just happened? I mean, that.

[00:32:54] It's amazing and, and I'm, it was really one of the, one of the

[00:32:59] most,

[00:33:00] amazing experiences of my life And and then I went under anesthesia

[00:33:06] and they, they,

[00:33:07] figured

[00:33:07] out, you know, what was going

[00:33:08] on with my lungs and I survived and, made a full recovery.

[00:33:14] But that stayed with me. That,

[00:33:16] that power and, and And, as much as

[00:33:19] ACT has,

[00:33:20] given me so much,

[00:33:22] it's never done that to me in, in that way. and kinda recognizing that

[00:33:27] power of compassion and to be able to, to, begin to, combine that with act.

[00:33:33] and to, use that,

[00:33:36] for, for my teaching, use it for my clients

[00:33:39] and just have it with myself.

[00:33:41] And that, that

[00:33:42] switch that

[00:33:42] got turned on, it's, it's never, gone back,

[00:33:46] right? it's

[00:33:47] there. And so

[00:33:49] whenever a challenge

[00:33:50] comes up.

[00:33:51] There's this sense of having this, you know, this,

[00:33:54] this inner

[00:33:55] ally.

[00:33:56] and, I can't recall a time [00:34:00] since that moment where I've beaten myself up for, for anything.

[00:34:04] Ross: Absolutely. And listener, please be assured there will be links to Eric's website so you can check out that Metta meditation for, yourself and the other exercises there.

[00:34:15] Now I'd love to just

[00:34:16] continue chatting, Eric, but I really want to get onto your book as well.

[00:34:19] Song Choice

[00:34:19] Ross: So before we do, a question I've asked you before, but I'm going to ask again. It's about a song choice. It's a question I ask all my guests. A song that would announce

[00:34:27] your arrival in a room, whether virtual or real, that would play on your arrival for the next, say, two to three months. It's not forever. Do you have a song choice that you'd share

[00:34:37] Eric: So, you know, it's a little bit like asking, which of my three kids do I love the most? That's a tough one because I do love music. But at the same time, I think that, Most songs, if it played every time I entered a room, would probably become torturous, after a bit. So, I would say, if we're keeping on the theme of compassion, I would probably, uh, pick a, pick another Pink Floyd song.

[00:35:12] I know I did, uh, Time, from Pink Floyd last time. but I might pick, uh, On the Turning Away, from Pink Floyd, which, uh, is a little bit about, compassion. but. If I was going to be practical or pragmatic, given, we are going through This election and, and there is this sense of, uh, threat that's just kind of permeates the air in

[00:35:38] this country right now, then I might pick something like, Weightless by Marconi Union.

[00:35:45] It's, a, it's a new

[00:35:46] agey sort of song. but they

[00:35:48] did some research with this song. And

[00:35:50] I had never heard of it before, but,

[00:35:52] the, the research showed up in a, journal. and as they

[00:35:56] compared, anxious people.

[00:35:58] they randomly [00:36:00] assigned

[00:36:00] half

[00:36:00] to listen to this song,

[00:36:03] and the other half to take a benzodiazepine

[00:36:06] medication, which is

[00:36:07] an anti anxiety medication.

[00:36:10] And they found that for, easing

[00:36:13] anxiety,

[00:36:13] both worked equally

[00:36:15] well.

[00:36:15] Ross: That's it, folks.

[00:36:22] Part one of my chat with Eric in the bag. Next week, we'll be talking about Eric's new book, The Mindful Freakout, a rescue manual for being at your best when life is at its worst. Now, I know I promised you an update on my cold water immersion. As I said in the episode, I've got an unheated pool at my disposal in the garden. So today marks the second day when I've very gently immersed myself, with plenty of deep breathing and minimal camp noises.

[00:36:51] I'll keep you posted on developments. You'll find the show notes for this episode at People Soup Captivate fm or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode, we'd love it if you told us why. you can email me at people soup dot po@gmail.com.

[00:37:08] On Twitter, we're at Ross mco on Instagram People Soup, and on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. You can help me reach more people with the special PeopleSoup ingredients. Stuff that could be really useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate and review. You help us rise up the charts and reach more people.

[00:37:30] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic, and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, Peasoopers, and bye for now.

[00:37:41] but even in the hottest days of summer I will

[00:37:44] make

[00:37:44] what my husband calls camp noises when I immerse myself in the water, particularly when it reaches my nether regions.