I came into this completely blind. I've never been around really any kind of animals. I never had pets growing up. I'd never been around horses. And on top of that, I didn't know what I was dealing with with this specific donkey

Today, we're talking about storytelling, a troublemaking goat, and man's second best friend: donkeys. Welcome to The Pod Lab, a Podcast Movement original series. I'm Doug Fraser producer and host of the NPR podcast, What We Do. Today is a "let's build a scene" episode where I'll dive into a scene I've produced and breakdown all the what's why's and how tos. The title of the episode we're breaking down today is "my running partner is a donkey." The slice we're breaking down, starts around the three and a half minute mark. So let me catch you up on what happened earlier in the story. The man whose voice you'll hear is Chris McDougall. He's a contributing writer to the New York Times, as well as an author of nonfiction books. In this episode, we're going to discuss his book "Running With Sherman, the Donkey With the Heart of a Hero." So far, what we've learned in the episode is Chris found a donkey named Sherman at a hoarder's house. As you can imagine, Sherman the donkey was in pretty bad shape. He was locked away, and had little to no human interaction. And Chris himself has zero experience with donkeys. So both of them were dealing with an unknown species. The last human Sherman interacted with locked him up in a box for years. So Sherman saw Chris as a threat, and that gap of understanding had to be bridged before they could actually begin Sherman's rehabilitation process. So Chris adopts Sherman brings him home to his house where he has a few other barnyard animals. And the problem with donkeys, even if they're deathly ill, is that they're incredibly stubborn creatures. So Chris consults, his friend, Tanya, who has a donkey of her own. She tells them that, like humans, donkeys are creatures of movement. Exercise gives them life. It helps fight depression. It signals our bodies to heal. And the heart of the matter is this, that movement is life. And in Sherman's case, it was the difference between life and death. So that's one of two main themes of the episode. For now, Tanya has recommended to give Sherman something to look forward to by giving him a job. And it's not like Sherman understands English, right? So Chris had to communicate with Sherman through his physical actions. So by now we've set up Sherman as a lovable character. Today's scene is about him arriving at Chris's home. Let's take a listen.

I realized that if I were going to get this donkey to cooperate with me, I had to come in to every contact, just calm, relaxed. Before we could advance it.

For now, Sherman laid his head down for the first night at his new home. He was exhausted, ill, and feeling alone in the world. That part we just heard is about 29 seconds. And within that time period, we've stepped into act two of the story. If you're not familiar in a three-act story structure, the first act is the thesis. This is where we meet the main characters. In this case, it's a Sherman and Chris in their world, as they know it. Act two is the antithesis. This is where the main character's worlds get flipped upside down, and act three is the synthesis. This is where the characters combine their knowledge and experience they learn from the way things used to be in act one, and the way things were in the chaos of act two, and now they move into the way things will be moving forward. So Sherman leaves his horrible conditions at the hoarder's house. We understand that he's not out of the woods yet. In that list of three we gave, exhausted ill and alone in the world, the order of those matter. Because it's the last item, the one that's most recent in our minds that we're about to remedy: Sherman's loneliness. The first creature who had a breakthrough with Sherman was a rambunctious Goat named Lawrence. Countless times Chris would hear a horn honking out front breaking through the morning here. It was the school bus driver. Lawrence had hopped the fence again, and followed the kids onto the bus. And that's no small act. The fence around Chris's pasture is five feet tall.

And he can clear that thing like a dear. And that's what he would do is he'd just jump over the fence and take off looking for adventure.

The night Sherman arrived, he was sick, hardly moving, and a bit shell shocked. Rather than kick up midnight mischief, Lawrence showed a different side of his personality.

This goat sought him out and laid down next to him and spent the first night by his side.

A cornerstone idea of this episode is that animals have an innate desire to connect with each other. This is the second time we've seen that. The first time was with Chris and Sherman, and now we see it with Sherman and Lawrence the goat. Sherman and Lawrence's relationship becomes a turning point in the story. So, I wanted to give Lawrence his, his due screen time, so we can reveal his demeanor. Because in terms of personality, he's the opposite of Sherman. This comes through in the story, and I also wanted it to come through in the music. So let's see how that plays out.

This goat, sought him out and laid down next to him and spent the first night by his side.

The act of compassion seemed to bring Sherman to life. There was a long music break there, um, of about five seconds or so. The reason I wanted this is I wanted to give the listener time to reflect on what Chris just said before we progress with the story. The music choice itself, uh, took a while for me to figure out. I wanted something that was soft and caring, something that, um, elevated the idea of gradual, but hopeful progress. And within that musical progress lies a sense of movement, which is another idea at the core of this story. And a side note, here's something to keep in mind. Music is there to elevate your story and a podcast as a whole, and not to make up for something that's missing. Music brings more energy to triumphant moments. It draws us into our own experiences with heartbreak. In podcasts, music and spoken word are in conversation with each other. So just make sure that conversation isn't being dominated by the music. Sherman's first foray into movement was to follow Lawrence around, then Tanya brought over her donkey and rode him next to Sherman as she walked. Chris's daughter has spent time with him continuing his increase in movement. It finally hit Chris that Sherman, this donkey who had been neglected for so long, just wanted companionship.

So long as we surrounded him by other creatures, then he'd be interested in moving.

At this point, we've sent out a beacon of hope for the story. Sherman, our little buddy, is showing progress. Now I want to take a break from the narrative to give some historical context for human and donkey relationships, which is a sentence I never thought I'd say in my life, but here we are. And it's actually incredibly fascinating to learn about that history. And it also sets up a teaser for the strong bond between Chris and Sherman that's still to come. Over time, Chris and Sherman's bond grew. They ran together, eventually competing in the world championship Pack Burro race, a tradition that began back in the early days of the Colorado mining industry. Miners had such strong bonds with their donkeys, that it was commonplace for them to go wherever their humans went. Walk into a bar in a mining town and you'd see a line of humans, their donkeys at their side. In his continued research for understanding how to train and bond with animals, Chris stumbled across the biophilia hypothesis. Which suggests humans have an innate desire to connect with things in nature, including other animals. We've now driven home the other major theme of the episode we alluded to earlier, and that is that animals want to connect with each other. We've all seen these cross species friendships online with all sorts of, of animal videos, right? Uh, cats and dogs, snuggling up on the couch, the mortal enemies becoming best friends, uh, a pig and a tiger playing together, uh, a koala and a wombat become best friends. Seeing these moments in nature gives us hope that in a world of chaos, companionship is all around us, and oftentimes it comes outside of our own species. Let's talk bigger picture for a moment. What's the point of this scene as it relates to the rest of the episode? I think there are three points to be made here. Number one, we set up the tone of the story within this scene. So this helps set listener expectations for what's to come. And it also allows you as the podcast creator to then defy those expectations to create twists and turns in the narrative later in the story. Number two, the scene lays the foundation of the challenges that Chris needs to overcome later in the story, while providing hope that it's actually possible. And this example of possibility comes in the form of Lawrence and Sherman's relationship. And finally, number three. We bring in scientific research to elevate the emotional connections with rational information. I found that, uh, I love sprinkling in science into stories about relationships. For me, it takes the whimsy of being swept up in emotions and it grounds it if only, ever so slightly in a more objective reality. That scientific proof sort of pats you on the back and says, hey, this thing you're feeling, it's in your blood. And I think in some way it gives us the permission we crave to be ourselves. Now it's time to hear a question from the Podcast Movement Community.

Hi, this is Joy Parrish.

And this is Claire Koch, and we are the hosts of This is Joy and Claire, a weekly talk show podcast, focused on healthy living and lifestyle for women all over the world.

We want to know what are some tips for making a great podcast trailer.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Joy and Claire, thank you so much for that wonderful question. To answer it, let's chat with Matt Shilts. He's a senior producer at Gimlet Projects where he's worked on such shows as Spotify's Decade Wrapped, and Duet. He's also created trailers for shows like The Two Princes. Now in the interview, Matt speaks specifically about the Two Princes, which is a fiction podcast. But his advice can be used for any podcast genre.

I worked on a trailer for the Two Princes, um, at one point season two. I think the reason that that was really fun for me to work on it, and I think I would like to think that it ended up cool, is that I had nothing to do with making that show at all. Which I think is really helpful at some point to have someone in your process, as you make one, you got to have someone who isn't invested in the story and, and can like look at it for what it is. Which is not a perfect representation of the, of what you're doing, whether it's fiction or non-fiction. It is a truthful representation that is reinterpreted to be maximally exciting.

And you think it's difficult for someone working on the project to have that perspective?

I think often I think often what I have seen is, is people want to add one more thing to, to make it more true or this piece of tape that they just absolutely love. Not, not always, but I think that's just a tendency that people can have. Um, and when you, when you really care about a story that you're telling and you feel like you're leaving out, maybe a detail that is like integral to you know, to either the source or the writer or whatever it might be that can kind of make for a suboptimal listening experience. Really, it's like, it's, it's a different thing than making, you know, it's, it's its own. It's a totally its own thing. It's, it's not an episode. And I just think that getting someone in there who can be a little bit dispassionate about the, the thing that you're trying to promote will in the end be the best thing for the thing you're trying to promote.

Yeah, you have to really hire that assassin. Who's willing to, to kill the darlings, as, as some writer said, at some point.

The darlings, you know, we love them, but they are expendable. And ideally, ideally you have someone who does a first draft who doesn't know anything about it. And then you have an editor who doesn't know anything about it. You should also have people who know stuff about it, obviously, but like a couple of different sets of ears who, who aren't super familiar with it can be honest about how it, how it hits them.

Do you personally think that every podcast should have a trailer?

Hmm. That's a really good question. I think that they are overrated. Um, that doesn't mean that I don't think they're ever important. I think often they're very important and often it's like, you know, maybe you can be like, need to get a feed started, but the only thing you can put down it as a trailer. And because that like time there's some sort of time element that is important. Or if you can make something good, it is so helpful, but I think there is so much like chaff that I don't find myself listening to a lot of trailers for podcasts. Making, making the better show is making the better episode. One, two is, is by far more important than a trailer. And I would say making the best, like first five minutes of episode, one is better, is more important than making a trailer.

What separates a great podcast trailer from a mediocre one?

You have to signal that it's going to be, something special. You know, and I, and I think doing that is actually very hard and I think it, it takes, it takes a, like a lot of work and maybe a little bit of luck and magic to, to really, to really signal that. But, you know, I don't think it's so hard because it's like, there are ones that are pretty good that are effective. Maybe they're not great. Um, I think there are a lot more ones that are mediocre or worse.

On the trailers you've worked on, do you tend to have a template or a formula you use?

No. Um, I try to listen to the, thing, now obviously if it's like a huge season, maybe I don't listen to everything, but like typically I listened to as much of it as possible once marking through like the times that I was really captivated and then pulling those times out. Not maybe like in a full session with everything in stems, but just actually just like an MP3 or whatever. Um, cause I'll, I'll be working with an engineer to, to kind of grab the actual stuff, but, um, but I think just like listening through attentively, but, but really just grabbing the things that grab you. Um, and then I make a couple, um, first drafts. So I usually kind of like triangulate on what is working. So I'll kind of make one that's really, really straightforward and I'll make one that's really, um, you know, exciting and like really bombastic. Really playing up the sort of dramatic elements or I'll make one that's like barely narrated often. Um, just using tape if we've got a lot of cool tape. So those are sort of the three criteria or something. Those are sort of the three directions that I think about when I'm usually making a trailer. It'll be pretty clear usually which one is working or maybe two of them are working decently. And so you can kind of

Yeah, yeah. I was curious about that. If, if they ever combine to create the final product? Yeah, I

think so. I think so because, um, nothing is typically nothing I work on at least is like one thing, you know? So, so like maybe this really nice element of like quiet that came from the non narrated ending.

Do you like to have an arc in a trailer?

I mean, yes. The arc that a trailer needs to have is just like, grab you, explain the thing. And that's it. And so, and so if it's, if it's really flat or if it's really like peaks and valleys, I don't think it needs to have a specific thing. I think that there's just like, as long as it, as long as you don't lose someone, cause it's really short. So how much of an arc can you really have? I also think that you just don't ever want to go over like two minutes, if you can help it.

Well, we're running up on our time here, but I have one last question for you. Do you have any examples of great podcasts trailers that you've heard?

So maybe I have a recency bias, but like the best trailer that I've heard in a long time, also, maybe like, because I know people who work on it and it's a Gimlet co-production, but the show um "Not Past It", which is a co-production of, of ZSP Media and Gimlet, um, is a great show. Really recommend anyone listening to it. But the, the trailer itself I listened to and I was like, what? Like, this is so cool because I think it does everything that a trailer should do, which is like it conveyed what the show is. You know, it was kind of funny, it was kind of quirky. It gave you all the information without giving you too much information. You know, I think it used two or three clips from the show that were really brief. Um, the host gave her personality without like doing too much. And the music even was really kind of a funny choice for, for a podcast together. I think an unconventional choice is a, is a better way of putting it. It, it, it blew me away and it told me that not only was the show going to be really smartly put together and thoughtful, but it's also kind of signaled this isn't your, like, you know, this isn't your grandfather's, um, history show, which I think was very effective. So that was, one of the ones I can remember, one of the only ones I can remember recently that like really nice, my socks off.

That does it for this week at The Pod Lab. Be sure to subscribe, to get notified of new episodes as they're released. And if you'd like to be featured in a future episode, submit your question at the Podcast Movement Facebook page. Until next time, keep experimenting. The Pod Lab is a Podcast Movement Original Series, produced and hosted by me, Doug Fraser.