Dr Ozgur K

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[00:00:56] Imam Tariq: As Salaamu Alaikum, May the peace that only God can [00:01:00] give be upon you. I'm your host, Imam Tariq El-Amin. Welcome to the American Muslim Podcast, presented by Bayan on Demand, where we explore the journeys, insights, and impacts of leader shaping the intellectual, spiritual, and cultural landscape of Muslims and America. And they do this through their service, activism, scholarship, and lived experience.

[00:01:22] Imam Tariq: Today's guest is Dr. Ozgur Koca a faculty member at Bayan Islamic Graduate School whose work bridges theology, philosophy, and science with a foundation in physics and mathematics, and a deep engagement with Islamic metaphysics. Dr. Kja offers a compelling voice in contemporary Muslim thought. He's the author of Islam Causality and Freedom, and his most recent book, Islam Causality and Science addresses the intersection of classical Islamic thought and the modern religion science conversation.

[00:01:55] Imam Tariq: As Salaamu Alaikum Dr. Koca, it's good to have you here.

[00:01:57] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Wa Alaikum As Salaam, Thanks for having me. [00:02:00]

[00:02:00] Imam Tariq: So, one of the things that we want to do,before we get into the work that you're doing, is to take a second to talk about how you got here, is there a formative experience or a memory or a mentor or something that you can point to that has been essential in leading you to where you are today?

[00:02:23] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Yeah, that's a wonderful question. I start my academic career as a scientist actually. So I,studied physics and math and I taught these topics for many years,in different countries actually,in Central Asia, in the United States,in Turkey. So I've been traveling and teaching.

[00:02:43] Dr. Ozgur Koca: but I always had this interest in,where, Philosophy, science and religion intersects,where they start to talk to each other, where they can benefit from each other. So I always have this interest,on that. So after years of quantitative [00:03:00] experimental studies, physics and math,I wanted to,journey into new perspectives.

[00:03:06] Dr. Ozgur Koca: yes, science, physics, math. They give you a perspective about this world,this whole reality we are experiencing. but they don't seem to be exhausting. All of it. they are useful tools,but there's something lacking in them. the reality of the world doesn't really lend itself to only a quantitative study or to mathematical formulas.

[00:03:29] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So I wanted to,look at this whole story and to myself, to the world from different perspectives as well. I journey into philosophy. I did a ma there,and eventually,I wanted to do some serious religious studies too. So I did a PhD in,philosophy of religion and theology.

[00:03:45] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I also,continued my studies with,different scholars in the muslim world;. more independent studies,sometimes one-to-one, sometimes attending a class. studied Arabic,with them. Persian. I studied a couple of languages, tried to learn, and,just to be able [00:04:00] to read the,importantclassical texts,from the original sources, not translations.

[00:04:05] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So I did that too,in a more informal way. so I'm a student. I'm still learning a lot,always,listening, learning, studying,reading different text. Nowadays I'm translating a text,from Islamic,metaphysical tradition. so I,am,writing a commentary on it. the book is called, Miftah al-Ghaib,

[00:04:27] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I think this never Ending Journey,real Learning.

[00:04:30] Imam Tariq: Would you translate that, the title of that book

[00:04:33] Dr. Ozgur Koca: it is,miftah al-ghaib, I think it can be translated as, "key to the unseen.",

[00:04:38] Imam Tariq: right?

[00:04:39] Dr. Ozgur Koca: it is a book on the principles of,Sufi Metaphysic, was one of the major,I think the most influential student of Ibn Arabi.

[00:04:46] Dr. Ozgur Koca: that book was,used,throughout the centuries as an introduction to Ibn Arabian, thought. but it's not available in English. so I'm just trying to make it available. but also the book is dense and difficult. I'm trying to unpack [00:05:00] it here and there. so writing my own commentary on it as well.

[00:05:04] Imam Tariq: Hmm.

[00:05:05] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So it's gonna come out insha'Allah in 2025, Route, which will publish it. I hope we're almost there.

[00:05:13] Imam Tariq: Now. The idea of the polymath is something that is not. Foreign in the Islamic,tradition. So you started off in a much more empirical and analytical field and then moved into the philosophical as a young person before you,

[00:05:30] Imam Tariq: Was that something that was always with you?

[00:05:33] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I think it started at a very early age. I had this questioning kit. this,I, when I was studying science, I always, I was also doing my parallel readings in other fields too.

[00:05:45] Dr. Ozgur Koca: so I think I always had that interest in,I always had this philosophical tendency.

[00:05:51] Dr. Ozgur Koca: and also towards a tendency towards spirituality as well. so I think that brought, and science is dear to me. I love [00:06:00] science. I think then,but I,couldn't be a very, advanced scientist.

[00:06:05] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Right? that requires a lifetime study. so I entered into different fields. I wanted to be able to put the scientific knowledge, what we know about the world, like from the physical mathematical side And the spiritual,wisdom,which we can find abundance of it in Islamic tradition.

[00:06:22] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Also, philosophical, conceptual,thinking, thought,and as you said,this is not alien to our tradition. that has been done by many,and,you have many examples of this. I think it may have something to do with the principle of unity Tawheed.

[00:06:39] Imam Tariq: Yes.

[00:06:39] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And now the one who creates the world from a physical mathematical side.

[00:06:43] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Also the one who allows us to know it. And,also,can be known from different, aspects, I think Tawheed kind of unifies things, right? the whole world, it unifies. Therefore, I believe any,Muslim scholar who takes this idea of unification seriously,[00:07:00] will probably not get stuck in one field and be blinded by it will probably also have its own adventure in other domains.

[00:07:09] Dr. Ozgur Koca: This is probably why, you find a lot of scholars who can do very rigorous logic, write dry academic stuff, but also can compose poetry and,talk about, nightingales and flowers, and roses and that kind of, rigorous academic study. the culmination of spiritual experience.

[00:07:26] Dr. Ozgur Koca: it's very common to see.

[00:07:28] Imam Tariq: Yeah. They could build the house and decorate it beautifully,

[00:07:32] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Yeah.

[00:07:32] Dr. Ozgur Koca: very well put.

[00:07:33] Dr. Ozgur Koca:

[00:07:33] Imam Tariq: So who is the intended audience? is it scholars, theologians, scientists? who would you point to initially?

[00:07:43] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I think the book is primarily addressing the researchers in the field.

[00:07:47] Imam Tariq: Okay.

[00:07:47] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And philosophers, graduate students who are interested in these topics. professors,perhaps even, some advanced undergrads.

[00:07:54] Imam Tariq: Yeah.

[00:07:54] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I think I wrote this book for the academia. . but I actually,my [00:08:00] strategy is I promised myself to write two for the academia and two for myself.

[00:08:04] Imam Tariq: Okay.

[00:08:04] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I did that, I wrote two books for academia, like for advanced researchers in the field. Now I'm working on two other books coming, and that's gonna have a wider audience,because,I'm gonna just express certain ideas.

[00:08:17] Dr. Ozgur Koca: in a more accessible manner. And the topics that I will be dealing with perhaps also will be that. But,yeah. Yeah, you are right. this book is primarily,I think addressing,researchers,advanced,students,professors,and anybody who's interested in the religion and science discussion.

[00:08:33] Dr. Ozgur Koca: in a serious manner. And I'm not just saying the Muslims, I believe,books like this can be benefits from non-Muslims, Christian theologians,thinkers,Jewish thinkers, Buddhist thinkers. this is a big topic. this discussion between religion and science is a big issue.

[00:08:47] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I think every religion has its own,struggle in this. and books like this kind of becomes,cross traditional. so they're being read by other, people in the field. so in that regard, I believe it's not just a [00:09:00] Muslim book. it's probably a inter-religious interfaith, it has that nature.

[00:09:04] Imam Tariq: Yes. because each tradition would have its own. engagement and understanding with the idea of causality and science. we're talking about free will and we're talking about what is,empirically observable, right? Yes, which is science. How would you situate this book within the broader Islam and science discourse?

[00:09:27] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Wonderful question. this iswhy I wrote this book on causality. The question of causality, Islam,the title is Islam Causality in Science,

[00:09:35] Imam Tariq: right?

[00:09:35] Dr. Ozgur Koca: . I wrote another book in 2020. the title of that book was Islam Causality and Freedom. Now,this book was more theological in its focus.

[00:09:45] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I was focusing on,the issue of free. how Muslims understood,that question of freedom and in relationship with,causality because,to be free, to be an uncaused cause of yourself, if that is [00:10:00] true. So it's like directly,very intimately related to question of causality.

[00:10:04] Dr. Ozgur Koca: we do not think the two independently of each other. So I wanted to deal with that question first. And in 2024,Cambridge,invited me to write,a book, another book. I wrote this book upon an invitation. in the last chapter of the first book I was talking about,what is the relevance of this study, that I did, I'm looking at medieval classical, post-classical Islam, right?

[00:10:29] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And what is the relevance of that study for modern Islam? So I was asking that question in the last chapter. I was making certain allusions discussing it in certain depth. But,in one chapter, one can, only do so much, right? touching,upon some certain important subjects that really developing them.

[00:10:47] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Cambridge editors asked me to write a book,another book on that last chapter. So I did that. this is a continuation of the first book,especially focusing on the modern,religion and science discussion. [00:11:00] you might ask, what does causality this, marginal topic has to do with, right?

[00:11:04] Dr. Ozgur Koca: with, we may not think about causality in our daily lives, we may not even know the notion But if you think about it. almost all discussions we have on religion and science,they all seem to be boiling down to question of causality.

[00:11:23] Dr. Ozgur Koca: let me give you an example. Think about theory of evolution, it's a difficult one. So the theory of evolution. what is the issue here? on the one hand, the defender of theory of evolution give you,an explanation of the,emergence of species,on the basis of uninterrupted causal processes.

[00:11:43] Dr. Ozgur Koca: on the other hand,most, believers believe in the,creation of Adam and Eve or species,directly,as a result of a miraculous creation or,interrupted causal processes.

[00:11:56] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So this is an important issue if you think about science, what does [00:12:00] science do? Science wants to,draw the causal map of the world, right? think about a phone. This phone. how do we make a phone like this? First, you understand causal processes working in the world. .

[00:12:14] Dr. Ozgur Koca: What event is followed bywhat event? with a close study of the world, you understand these causal processes, the relationship between causes and effects, And then with Acausal, you are able to see new connections between new causes and new effects.

[00:12:32] Dr. Ozgur Koca: this is what science does. It draws the causal map of the world, the causal chain of events. So once you understand that you can create technology because now you know it, right? and you can start neo causal processes, therefore you can have a phone. Or as we are having a discussion right now, we can have this online meeting.

[00:12:52] Dr. Ozgur Koca: because we now understand the causal network that is making this possible, and science [00:13:00] does this, and technology uses this knowledge and creates new technologies causality lies at the very heart of scientific project

[00:13:08] Dr. Ozgur Koca: but from a religious point of view, if you are thinking of, interruptions,breaks and causality, there seems to be a tension

[00:13:16] Imam Tariq: Yes. You actually bring me back to the title of the book. Was it a mga? yeah. Yeah. So key to the unseen,causality is dependent upon what is observable yes.

[00:13:29] Imam Tariq: And yes, identifying those patterns. Ergo we are able to repeat those patterns or utilize the basis of those patterns for the,development of technology. Yes.

[00:13:43] Dr. Ozgur Koca: very likely,

[00:13:44] Imam Tariq: however, the limitations of what is observable must be recognized.

[00:13:49] Imam Tariq: Right? Because technology continues to change based on new observations.

[00:13:54] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Yeah. Now,This is the question I'm asking in the book. how do we navigate this [00:14:00] discussion?

[00:14:00] Imam Tariq: Okay.

[00:14:01] Dr. Ozgur Koca: How do we,navigate this central question? to be able to do this, I first looked at what Muslims thought about causality.

[00:14:10] Dr. Ozgur Koca: in the first chapter, I'm giving a brief overview of,the most definitive descriptions of causality. I'm looking at basically three,big schools. One of them is the Muʿtazilite theology. they have important things to say about it and Asha'rism,or Ahl al-Sunnah doctrines. mostly agree with Ash‘arites, but I'm mostly focusing on, Ash‘arites on this question.

[00:14:33] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So I'm looking at that school too. I'm also looking at philosophers,the Islamic philosophy and also Sufi metaphysics, participatory theories. So on the one hand,I have the mu'tazilite account of causality. I'm having a ash‘arite account of causality and third thing I'm having,the participatory account of causality.

[00:14:52] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So I'm looking at these three causal doctrines and I'm asking now how can they help us? [00:15:00] To navigate the discussion between religion and science. Basically the book is doing this. this is also an attempt to make the traditional thought relevant, how do,go back and forth. basically, if you wanna hear more about these doctrines that they're saying and how can they help us, I can give you a brief overview.

[00:15:19] Imam Tariq: Yes, please

[00:15:19] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Yeah, sure. from o doctrine,they start from the notion of justice, right? these people, they were describing themselves as Ahl al-Tawḥīd wa’l-ʿAdl , which means, we are the people of Tawhid, unity and justice. their,theological doctrine is based on the notion of justice.

[00:15:39] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Basically,justice is everywhere. in their doctrine. What, does this have to do with causality? It,it has a lot to do with it now. if God is just, right?, it should be rewarding or punishing us on the base of merit. Right. that's the basic understanding. And Islamic, the appears to be [00:16:00] alluding to this, right?

[00:16:00] Dr. Ozgur Koca: There's reward and punishment and some of us deserve this, and some of us deserve that, right? So there's that justice,God is just, right. justice is at the very center. So to be able to establish, divine justice, We also should be able to establish the causal efficacy and freedom in the created order,

[00:16:20] Dr. Ozgur Koca: We need to have that. Otherwise we would have to say God,punishes or rewards us without any, meaningful power.

[00:16:28] Imam Tariq: we have the ability to earn. Reward or punishment.

[00:16:31] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Precisely.

[00:16:32] Imam Tariq: Right?

[00:16:32] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Yeah. And to earn that, we need to have some type of power to choose, power to act right.

[00:16:38] Dr. Ozgur Koca: if you take that out, then we are just like leaves before the wind. we don't really have anything to say, but that undermines the divine justice. And mu'tazilites cannot accept that. Therefore, they say we have this power, they call it istitāʿah, or sometimes,right. this power.

[00:16:53] Dr. Ozgur Koca: We have with him, it is bestowed upon us by God. We have that separate, it's separate [00:17:00] from the divine power. There's a type of a separation between the divine power and our power. It is bestowed upon us we choose. But there are also,natures ṭabīʿah that's,their way of saying natural laws.

[00:17:14] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So there are laws in the world and our freedom. So the makers of the world, therefore two things,

[00:17:19] Imam Tariq: right?

[00:17:20] Dr. Ozgur Koca: One of them is nature's laws and the other one is our freedom. So this two makes the world, that's their, basically their doctor that seems to be establishing justice in a robust way.

[00:17:33] Dr. Ozgur Koca: But asha'rites would have certain issues with this theory. 'cause on the one hand, they will saylook, in doctrine it is the divine will, what is it? The center is divine will divine Freedom. and God cannot be bounded by our, limited minds. Therefore, what we perceive as justice may not be just, or not just.

[00:17:52] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So therefore,they want to centralize the divine will divine freedom, divine creation, divine sovereignty. [00:18:00] And,you can't do this without offering,an accompanying theory of causality. they offer a theory of causal photos, and it's called sometimes as occassionalism, so occassionalism or Islamic occassionalism.

[00:18:12] Dr. Ozgur Koca: The theory basically is telling you this, right? It is God who creates cause.

[00:18:16] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And it is God who creates effect and it is God who attaches them to each other on a self-imposed habitual pattern. Now it's this habits of God, sunnah tul-llah, or adl'tul'llah. So these habits of God, they,are the guarantors of the.

[00:18:37] Dr. Ozgur Koca: regularity in the world, okay? God doesn't create in a chaotic manner, but creates on a predictable manner. Therefore, we can,when we wake up,we are sure that the sun is gonna rise again. Is that making sense? So God creates everything is created by God. So right now, when I'm speaking from an asha'arite point of view, I can explain [00:19:00] this to you like this.

[00:19:01] Dr. Ozgur Koca: when I'm speaking to you, billions of things are happening in my body. Billions, like on a molecular particular cellular level, billions of things in my brain is happening. And, my neurons is participating in the exact. Chemical interactions are happening, my muscles are participating, and then I can utter words, and then these are coming out of my mouth.

[00:19:24] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And,the air between us, right? It's transmitting it to this computer and the computer is processing it, and it's bringing it to you, and your computer now transmitting it to you, and then the air again transmits it to you. And then,your body processes this words, right? Therefore, we can have this interaction,

[00:19:41] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So it's a mind blowing process, right? By the way, if you think about it this way, everything that's happening in the world, like just mind blowing, like billions of things are just happening at all moments. in a mind blowing,orderly fashion, but also including novelty in it.[00:20:00]

[00:20:00] Imam Tariq: Would it be fair to say that according to the asha'rite, thinking that we exist at the intersection of divine cause and effect.

[00:20:14] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I think you can say that, but they wouldn't use the term participation yet. that's gonna come later for asha'rism is,it's God who's creating cause and effect. So when you touch with fire to a cotton ball,

[00:20:27] Dr. Ozgur Koca: It's gonna burn God who creates,the fire creates the cotton and it's God who creates the burning. and all the whatever that's happening between the two, it's always is God. Is creating what is caused and what is effect. There are really no horizontal causality it's God, who's creating all these causality and just attaching them to each other on a habitual pattern.

[00:20:47] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Therefore we can predict it. if you can sense it it's immediately brings an immense sense of robust divine presence. it's divine creation everywhere.

[00:20:57] Dr. Ozgur Koca: As if the world is being recreated anew [00:21:00] at each moment. Is that making sense?

[00:21:02] Imam Tariq: Yes.

[00:21:03] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So this the, we actually come to this conclusion.

[00:21:05] Dr. Ozgur Koca: the world is recreated anew at each moment. It's like a pulsating world between existence and non-existence. It's like a frequency.

[00:21:14] Dr. Ozgur Koca: we don't see it perhaps because it is happening all the time and it's just very given. existence is being given to us all the time like this.

[00:21:24] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So there is this cause relationship. this is an elegant and profound and,very powerful way of seeing the world, however, and of the later generations, except most of this, by the way. Now Sufis love this too,because of this immediate divine presence, The imminence and very powerful presence of divine sovereignty and power.

[00:21:44] Dr. Ozgur Koca: but,this theory will also be criticized because,it seems to be undermining the human agency and freedom in a way,because

[00:21:52] Dr. Ozgur Koca: if it is God who's creating both cause and effect all causes and all effects, right? and if my freedom is a cause [00:22:00] now even my freedom is being created by God, right?

[00:22:03] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Even if my choices are being created by God. where really is freedom. There seems to be like a determinist,tendency in this. Therefore certain scholars will,criticize,asha'rism and asharite Theory of causality on the basis of this,all the theologians would wanna answer those critiques.

[00:22:23] Dr. Ozgur Koca: so I'm engaging,that discussion as well in the book. I'm also,offering certain solutions, my own solutions also, but also,just taking that conversation between the scholars I think, to a step further. And,at end of the day,I also,agree with this theory,is not,I think establishing human freedom agency as strongly as, mu'tazilite, theory does.

[00:22:48] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And it has a lot of benefits. it has a lot of power profundity in it, yet there seems to be some issues that still remain. So I do that in the book. but the third theory, [00:23:00] so I covered like mo there's also theory, right

[00:23:04] Imam Tariq: before you

[00:23:04] Imam Tariq: covered the last theory, how important is human presence and connecting cause and effect, and what does that say about our ability to act as true agents or causes of our own choices?

[00:23:16] Dr. Ozgur Koca: it is like there's cause and effect, right? Human presence,to be able to connect these cause and effect like human presence we must have. And,there's this ability to be an uncaused cause of ourselves, right? there's this have some real agency or,some real,freedom,efficacy. if you can't really,ground it in a strong way,we may be losing it.

[00:23:41] Dr. Ozgur Koca: so I think this,what you're saying is is only possible when you really affirm,this,ability to be uncaused causes of ourselves. That's what freedom, yes. At this, how I understand it in the book.

[00:23:53] Imam Tariq: Okay.

[00:23:54] Dr. Ozgur Koca: look,if you think about this, the theological doctrines, right?

[00:23:57] Dr. Ozgur Koca: There's on the one hand, mu'tazilite and ash'arite [00:24:00] doctrines, they seem to be presuming a separation between God and the world too, right? As if God is here,watching the world and the world is here,and God is affecting the world like the sun, perhaps. Well now sun is separate from us, but we still feel its effects, right?

[00:24:15] Dr. Ozgur Koca: It's heat, it's warmth, it's light, but there's this separation between the two, the grounding presumption is that type of separation. But in the participatory accounts, we see something different happening. So the very term participation also indicates this,can really separate our existence from the divine existence because,especially in the Sufi metaphysics, God is not seen as a being with some boundaries, right?

[00:24:42] Dr. Ozgur Koca: a form, something like that. Because he is infinite, God is infinite. Nothing can really be truly outside of. if you really think about the notion of infinity, you can't really step out of, the divine presence. you can't really draw boundaries [00:25:00] around divine presence. God's essence is beyond,limitations, old limitations.

[00:25:06] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Therefore, they will say, we should understand the relationship between God and the world and God and us, therefore, in more non-dualistic. Participatory manner. And here,participatory, account of causality enters. .

[00:25:21] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So in all theological and philosophical tendencies.

[00:25:24] Dr. Ozgur Koca: There are basically two ways of imagining relationship between God and the cosmos. Most theological doctrines imagine this relationship as if the two are separate, most theological doctrines. And just like human, I think way of thinking. Like we, we imagine God as if, God is out there,like a being, right?

[00:25:43] Dr. Ozgur Koca: and then we start producing our theological ideas, doctrines, ideologies.

[00:25:47] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:48] Dr. Ozgur Koca: but at a certain level, I believe this,type of imagining, this relationship between God and the world doesn't seem to be working really. And let me give you an example. I have a glass right now.

[00:25:58] Dr. Ozgur Koca: the maker of this glass [00:26:00] or the maker of any art piece, right? If the maker, the artist is gone, this is still here, right? there really is no,necessary relationship between this. it created, it made it gave you the shape, and then,we don't need him anymore. But in the relationship between God and the world, this analogy doesn't seem to be doing justice to that relationship.

[00:26:22] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Because once you take God, right, nothing remains nothing. therefore,you can't really think about that relationship in that sense. Therefore, they will tell us. We see this tendency, especially in Islamic philosophical and islamic spiritual domain. this is not pantheism, however. but they wanna say, divine is closer to us than our own juglar vein

[00:26:48] Dr. Ozgur Koca: or, and all of these, are telling us, although God is beyond everything else, all of us, right?

[00:26:56] Dr. Ozgur Koca: but also God is closer to us than our own selves. [00:27:00] Therefore, if you understand causality in this context now where you bring transcendence and imminence together it appears different and,I give the details and quotes a lot of quotes in the book,but just very briefly, I can summarize it here.

[00:27:17] Dr. Ozgur Koca: They're gonna say something like this and their participatory account. If I am free, if I have causal efficacy, this is because,I participate in the divine freedom. I am a loki of divine names and, attributes, right? this is to say I participate in the divine,power. If I have power, I participate in divine freedom.

[00:27:41] Dr. Ozgur Koca: If I have freedom, this is why I am, I can truly be free. the ground of my own freedom is the divine freedom. we are not talking about really two separate,things. Although are freedom absolutely depend on the divine freedom, our power, absolutely defined on divine power.

[00:27:58] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Our existence [00:28:00] absolutely depend on,the divine existence. so we absolutely depend. Of these qualities,in a very generalist is what they say. This is really affirming,in a very powerful way, human agency,also divine presence.

[00:28:16] Imam Tariq: Well, that leads me to ask, how do these models influence Muslim views on free will.

[00:28:22] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm. Responsibility, divine justice in today's context.

[00:28:28] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So in the second chapter I look at,contemporary religion, contemporary discussion,on religion and science.

[00:28:33] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So I look at those discussions and there seems to be,several issues I look at, by the way,not only Muslim, but also Christian theologians,some, other theologians from other religions, they are focusing on this topic.

[00:28:46] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So there seems to be a few issues that we need to address. one of them is,when they usually use,scientific theories to make sense of,divine causality in the age of science. As they say it, like divine [00:29:00] causality. the issue is this science is,acting on the basis of this presumption.

[00:29:04] Dr. Ozgur Koca: The causal processes right, are un untrapped. It's regular, the world is predictable because without having this presumption, you can't really study the world. The world is predictable,like rigorously. Predictable. So that is,this regularity. these processes are not undermined on the base of this science,actually achieved a lot, right?

[00:29:26] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I mean it in terms of understanding the world, creating technologies, and,it allowed us to know a lot about the world, how the world processes. this is what science does. but how do you reconcile,divine causality? we have, everything is explained in terms of natural causality.

[00:29:45] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Right? So this natural causality, is the science, understand events follow each other, necessarily, so this natural causality, how do you reconcile natural causality with un causality? That is,the basic question.

[00:29:59] Dr. Ozgur Koca: [00:30:00] And now it is our, job to apply these three doctrines to this central question of the reconciliation of natural causality and divine causality, divine presence. but we should also be able to address the question of human freedom because if everything is causal right, then we appear to lose human freedom.

[00:30:23] Imam Tariq: What is your purpose?

[00:30:24] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Precisely. And what's our dignity? Where is our value real without having a,real freedom. And,so after entertaining a lot of discussions on this literature, I came up with, we should have at least four criteria to have,theory of causality, which can.

[00:30:40] Dr. Ozgur Koca: address the challenge. Okay? And those four criteria are our theory of causality, okay? Should not,put apriori limits to scientific research, like apriori limits to scientific research. Only let science do what it wants to do. let it explain as much as it [00:31:00] can. We shouldn't be afraid of scientific theories, or we shouldn't see any scientific theory as risky.

[00:31:05] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I offer four criteria to judge the strength of a theory of causality. so it shouldn't put any,prioritized,boundaries around scientific research. And second, it should be able to explain miracles,without reducing them into,science stoppers or,metaphoric stories.

[00:31:25] Dr. Ozgur Koca: As some times people tend to understand them as this metaphor because,religions are serious about, extraordinary. These things happen. And the third thing is,it should be able to affirm our freedom, right? Our ability to be uncaused causes of ourselves. also, you should be able to affirm the divine freedom.

[00:31:47] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Because ash'arism was very sensitive about this, right? It's an important topic. We shouldn't wanna just see God as,a necessary lens as some philosophies do. and lastly, [00:32:00] it should be able to,give us a very strong sense of divine presence because again,this is,from an Islamic point of view is the very center, so divine presence, freedom.

[00:32:11] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Miracles and scientific method. So there are four questions that I ask to these theories of causality, and I'm trying to see whether they can pass this test.

[00:32:22] Imam Tariq: So let's start with miracles. how does Islamic thought accommodate belief in miracles without undermining scientific principles?

[00:32:32] Dr. Ozgur Koca: yeah. Well, this is a very good question. to be able to do this right, first we need to go back a little bit and to see, and I do that in the book,to see how do we understand miracles? How do to see them? There are two tendencies in Islamic philosophy and theology.

[00:32:47] Dr. Ozgur Koca: One of them sees miracles as negation of causal processes. God just negates these normal, causal processes and creates in a different way. this is called [00:33:00] sometimes nafy al-ʿāda, like the negation of habits. a good example of this, say a king rides a horse, right? Normally, but sometimes it just walks among the crowd, right?

[00:33:11] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So it's very, it doesn't happen,always or very, frequently, but it might happen. negation of,causality is one explanation. The other explanation is this,you can find this in some,doctrines, also islamic philosophical writings.

[00:33:28] Dr. Ozgur Koca: They say even these,miraculous events, have a causal basis. there's a causality,under mining. Them, so there should be a causal explanation to these events too, but they don't. Move. beyond that,they don't say, how then,these new causal networks are being,initiated.

[00:33:50] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Okay? So there are certain questions they don't seem to be answering. what do we do with this? So I attempt to challenge this question in the book. I say, [00:34:00] look, if you ask this question to mu'tazilite,whether and how do you say what are the miracles? and mu'tazilite would agree that miracles happen.

[00:34:08] Dr. Ozgur Koca: They don't deny miracles. Nobody does. By way, no one serious really. So they don't say, these are metaphors, this didn't happen. But just, Scott is using them as literature, literature twice or something like that. So they don't say that, but,they will tell you this,a mu'tazilitetheologian will,tell you that these things are causal.

[00:34:28] Dr. Ozgur Koca: These are causal miracles. Because causal processes are never negated. from a bar to seat,an apple doesn't grow. examples like this can be found in many places. So that is there's an order in the world,an intelligible order.

[00:34:43] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And that's very important for them to keep that intelligibility of the world that we understand we can act in it. So they're very big about this. so they say miracles are closed. And national e theology would tell you, look, miracles are [00:35:00] not, these are negations of causality that just creates in a different way.

[00:35:05] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Without using causal normal, regular, causal process, these two explanations found a lot of support. but when you apply these two,to our modern context of religion and science discussion, there seems to be certain,not only scientific, but also,philosophical, theological,difficulties in them.

[00:35:21] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I'm trying to solve this, by the way. I offer my own take on this and this is how I do it. as I said, mu'tazilites just say miracles are causal, but they don't seem to say anything else. It's just, they just leave it at that. and they don't say anything like, where is the divine freedom?

[00:35:39] Dr. Ozgur Koca: any causal process is beginning when Moses, separates to sea, right? Or when the term, when the staff turns into,a serpent. something else is happening there, right? But they don't,say more much about this.

[00:35:55] Dr. Ozgur Koca: On the other hand, ash'arite doctrine is beautiful, I believe, theologically, but it [00:36:00] says this challenge,if,interruptions, if negation of causality happen, right? then how can you really,establish a rigorous existence on,scientific explanations in the world of modern know, modern science. one can expl, one can perhaps,allow these type of interruptions to some degree, right?

[00:36:21] Dr. Ozgur Koca: But if they may be happening every day, all over the place, right? So it may be a difficult thing to establish,this scientific,unyielding insistence on,pursuing causal explanations. There seems to be a tension in this between re's understanding of causality can be negated, and scientists understanding of causality is never negated.

[00:36:48] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Okay. Can you see the tension here?

[00:36:50] Imam Tariq: I can see the tension. I go back to causality being based on what is observable and recognizing that [00:37:00] there are phenomena that are not observable. Yes. But we may see the outcome, we may see the result without being able to see the pattern.

[00:37:10] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Yes. Yes.

[00:37:11] Dr. Ozgur Koca: so absorbability is a very important point to take here. But,again, the question appears to remain though. Look,if you are this unabsorbable part of the world, this unabsorbable part, are they still functioning within the domain of causality or. In those parts, causality is negated.

[00:37:31] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So for a mo,even in those unobservable parts,we don't just see them, but causal network is so profound, so beyond,sure we may just see the effects, but even that causality

[00:37:44] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Remain, look at this. What are we doing here right now? Right? if you tell people who lived 200 years ago that I just spoke with my friend who's living in Chicago face to face, right?

[00:37:58] Dr. Ozgur Koca: they might think that I am,[00:38:00] not a healthy person, right?

[00:38:02] Imam Tariq: right

[00:38:02] Dr. Ozgur Koca: now, since we now know those unobservable causal networks, This doesn't seem like a miracle to us, but it may have seemed like it to them. Perhaps that issue still would still remain.

[00:38:15] Dr. Ozgur Koca: but then how do we do this and how do we deal with this issue? I think that's the main question here. So I already give you the perspective of a mu'tazilite and ash'arite, right? But how then the participatory can causality can deal with this, right? So I am reinterpreting parts per causality in this part, on this particular question.

[00:38:35] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I'm saying something like this. Look,perhaps we can bring together muesli and approaches. we can bring them together because for ash'arism, it is divine freedom, I mean it says divine freedom that is at the very center of their theological project. and for mu'tazilites it's justice and therefore causality.

[00:38:58] Dr. Ozgur Koca: this on causality and all of that. [00:39:00] So they love that. But I think to be able to. address the challenge when we may need to. be able to,preserve,miracles in the real sense,together with,to preserve this unyielding insistence of science in providing causal explanations.

[00:39:20] Dr. Ozgur Koca: We can bring the two together. I say that we can perhaps see these events by starting from our own experience because we all time, every time we human beings We bring together freedom and causality in our actions. Look how we do this. when I wanna raise my hand, I just raise it Now, there are two explanations I can give for this.

[00:39:42] Dr. Ozgur Koca: One of them is that because my free choice to raise my hand, I'm using my freedom to raise my hand. But for a biologist. I can also provide a causal explanation in terms of my muscle moves and, the interactions and neurons and brains and all of that, right? And other causal [00:40:00] explanations can be given for us.

[00:40:02] Dr. Ozgur Koca: But look, in my own experience right now, I am bringing together, I am given to myself as a free agent, but also participating in causality as if these causal processes,translating my will into an action. Is that clear so far?

[00:40:20] Imam Tariq: Yes.

[00:40:21] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Now, this is like a reality that we always experience, right? Perhaps we can think about the,these miracles or divine action world in a similar sense.

[00:40:32] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Look, we can see miracles as an expression of divine will. Like it is God willing to create something extraordinary and that's being created in the world, so it can happen, but this doesn't have to negate the Presence of causality in them. So we can see miracles as an act of divine will, as a specific act of divine will.

[00:40:55] Dr. Ozgur Koca: But at the same time, we can also,be convinced that a type of natural [00:41:00] causal processes may also be present in them. So we can bring the two together in my view, without really having to sacrifice. So we can really bring together the mu'tazilite and ash'arite sensitivities,I believe within the larger context of,this participatory,causality, in that we can do this,we then we may have able to,preserve both.

[00:41:21] Dr. Ozgur Koca: No one other benefit of doing this, maybe this. Look, if you believe that even within,these miraculous, extraordinary events. There's a presence of causal processes, then these miraculous events actually turns into an invitation towards scientific research. Not,a science stopper. But in fact, it's an invitation.

[00:41:49] Dr. Ozgur Koca: and it's a, like a divine invitation. it's as if telling us, look, the world processes, the cosmos that you are encountering with is causally. [00:42:00] So pregnant causally so extraordinary that if you tap into the right causal processes, you can also create, these extraordinary miraculous things.

[00:42:12] Dr. Ozgur Koca: say if Moses divided the,say sea into two, right? Perhaps a thousand years from now, if you know how the atoms particles work, really, perhaps you can do something similar to that. So the miracles are. Science inviters, if you'll, inviters for us to think about the world in a very serious manner, to be amazed by its causal possibilities.

[00:42:36] Dr. Ozgur Koca: But this doesn't, again, makes us like,like strictly causalist people. We can also see them as expressions of divine will. specific expressions of divine will are being translated into reality through causal processes. I suggest this in the book.

[00:42:54] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I suggest that perhaps we can go a little bit beyond mu'tazilite and ash'arite,doctrines [00:43:00] on the specific question, and perhaps we can bring them together by starting our,very own experience,and we can see them,in a new light. That's how I understand the miracle.

[00:43:13] Imam Tariq: Do you think the way we understand something like causality affects how we pray or connect with Allah on a spiritual level?

[00:43:22] Dr. Ozgur Koca: The question of causality,I think it is like the constant background of almost all discussions that we have. And,it is very important in terms of say, spiritual state. why do I say this? I think when you pray to God, When you pray to Allah,your prayer will be affected by how you see,how you understand the divine presence in the world, right?

[00:43:46] Dr. Ozgur Koca: If you see God like a distant being, like who created and left alone like a deist would do,then you would pray perhaps even. Right. And if you pray, perhaps you're just [00:44:00] praying a distant God, but if you pray to Allah,who is closer to you than your own self, how would you pray? Right? Who knows your thoughts, even your prayers, and who is closer to you than your own self.

[00:44:15] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So as you can see, even like his very,basic most act with praying to Allah,how you understand, how you see the divine presence,radically fashions,your state of mind, your state of soul, and how you do these acts. Is that making sense? So I think,in this sense and how do you really understand this relationship if you see God, I mean in terms of causality, let's go back to causality.

[00:44:45] Dr. Ozgur Koca: If you see God as the first cause at the end of a very long chain of causality, right? like a domino pieces, right? Like pushes, and then all dominoes fall. But the first mover is now beyond. it's [00:45:00] just unreachable. If you see God as a first cause at the end of a very long chain of causality, it's a very distant God and aloof God.

[00:45:10] Dr. Ozgur Koca: But if you see God as the creator of each pieces and the creator of their motions and the creator of their very being or giver of their very being right now this is a very close, near immediate sense of divine presence. Is that making sense?

[00:45:30] Imam Tariq: Yeah. It's internalized.

[00:45:32] Dr. Ozgur Koca: It is internalized. Precisely.

[00:45:35] Dr. Ozgur Koca: It is now,you are in the divine presence now.

[00:45:38] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Now you are there,I think one of the things that these theological discussions do, they, if you truly understand and internalize them, they really put you right in the midst of the divine presence, a very robust sense of divine presence.

[00:45:54] Imam Tariq: yes.

[00:45:55] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And if you think about again, this very famous The prophetic definition, you [00:46:00] worship with God as if you see God.

[00:46:04] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Although you do not see God, God surely sees you. what is the combination of religious experience according to prophetic definition, this consciousness of presence. worship God as if you see, This presence,is at the very center. And if you think about,this theological discussion, if you look at it from this perspective.

[00:46:24] Dr. Ozgur Koca: think about ash'arites understanding of creation Right now, my speech is being created. Every act has been created in my brain. I really don't control them, really, right? Not consciously, at least what's happening in my brain. I don't control them. each act I'm not even conscious of them.

[00:46:40] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So I only thing that I do that I wish to speak, everything else happening in my brain, molecular particle, cellular level acts are being created in my brain. And all I want to do is to wish to speak and I can utter words. And this air can transmit it to you, and then it can go to your ear and your ear.

[00:46:58] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Then your brain can [00:47:00] process it, and we can have a conversation. all I want to do is to wish to speak. And this act is being created in a mind blowingly beautiful, orderly. Amazing fashion. Hence,we are always in the midst of this creative act of Allah.

[00:47:17] Dr. Ozgur Koca: We are always in the midst of this act of love, because it's this, if this is given to us, like it is an immense sense of rahma. It's an sense of compassion and the love,hence,spiritual taste, hence,Strong sense of divine presence is almost annihilates my whole being, although it also bestows it too.

[00:47:39] Dr. Ozgur Koca: if you wanna understand, if you, I think it to be from a practical point of view, if you wanna really,talk about, establishing divine presence,in our minds or growing spiritually, I think it's very important to,to have such a grounding also. in theology, [00:48:00] philosophy, metaphysics,therefore,our worldview will not clash with our spiritual state.

[00:48:08] Imam Tariq: So you would obviously say that there's a certain amount of foundational knowledge that is necessary to meaningfully engage with these topics?

[00:48:18] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I think so. And I'll say aware that, well, not everybody will be interested in these discussions, right? like this deep theology metaphysics, and I'm very well aware of that, and not everybody will be very deeply interested in these things.

[00:48:31] Imam Tariq: That's right.

[00:48:31] Dr. Ozgur Koca: But,we mustn't forget that some will do and some very smart, very enlightened, very well read,very questioning, strong personalities. They will do. I like to give this,ocean metaphor when I speak about these things like. in a ocean there are fish. They can only live in the surface right near surface, right?

[00:48:52] Dr. Ozgur Koca: There are some fish, perhaps a little bit deeper, but there are also fish. They live in the deepest levels, right? but if you take these fish living in the [00:49:00] deep right through the surface, if you want to take it to the surface, you're probably gonna kill it, right? Or the fish living in the surface to the deep 'cause of the pressure, you're gonna kill it too.

[00:49:10] Dr. Ozgur Koca: but what does ocean do is just allows them to be what they are, right? This gives this oceanic,comprehensibility. therefore,I think our islamic discourse should be this oceanic,it should have this oceanic,comprehensivity. It should be able to address,the fish living in the surface, but also the fish living in the deepest level.

[00:49:33] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And here we truly need,very profound, deep,philosophical, metaphysical,spiritual,thought and practice.

[00:49:41] Imam Tariq: Right?

[00:49:42] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And by the way, we are not just inventing it now. Now if you look at the islamic intellectual spiritualist, it's already been done. some of the books I was, trying to translate this book and it's very intense.

[00:49:53] Dr. Ozgur Koca: and it's obviously not written for everyone, but yes, there are, people who can [00:50:00] benefit from it and we should be able to address their needs. so I think that's how I see.

[00:50:06] Imam Tariq: Alright. I have to ask,because it feels like a natural segue, since you are faculty at Bay Islamic Graduate School.

[00:50:13] Imam Tariq: Should future students plan on seeing this as required reading and upcoming classes?

[00:50:19] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Yeah, I was asked to teach a course on these books. I think we are planning on that, so I will probably, teach a course on Islam and science issues, but,this will be one of the readings.

[00:50:29] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Can you share with us what your experience at Bayan has been like . Yes, It's been great. I really love being,part of this,project. Know, I really love,Bayan,been,with Bayan, by the way, since the beginning. I'm one of the founders, because it was, Jihad, me, and Munir, we used to meet and,talk about this and became a reality.

[00:50:50] Dr. Ozgur Koca: So since then, I am part of it. it's almost like my own child too. I have this personal attachment to it. I also see it as a great opportunity for American Muslim [00:51:00] community. and through that,The Muslim,civilization in general, Muslim, societies in different parts of the world.

[00:51:06] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Why do I say this? I believe in Bayan we have something unique, which is,with students, faculty from very different backgrounds, with very different tendencies, from belonging to different philosophical theological schools. we can actually come together and study together. we,learn from each other,a reflective of,the richness of Islamic,civilization in the past.

[00:51:33] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And we see Islam as this very large circle within which one can draw smaller circles. Sometimes they intersect, sometimes they not. But they're internally coherent, but they all are within this very large circle. and this is good. I think we,need these spaces in which,scholars, students,leaders, advocates, they can come together and learn from each other,by going beyond sectarian, [00:52:00] ideological,theological,Juris prudential differences,while respecting each other,and,again,without having to erase their own identity.

[00:52:10] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I just see it as a reflective of this,Qur'anic verse. We made them into nations so that they may know each other, this diversity within Muslim community, I believe is a blessing from Allah. so long as we can come together so that we can know each other,and we can, benefit from each other, we can also grow personally.

[00:52:28] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I think there's a reason that we are made in this qabāʾila this nation's tribes.

[00:52:33] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:34] Dr. Ozgur Koca: but if you are stuck in only one nation, one tribe, right? You're gonna see the world only from one perspective. But if you go visit your other tribes and other nations, perhaps this is also giving you a perspective journey.

[00:52:47] Imam Tariq: Now you start seeing it from this perspective, and then you grow too. Mm-hmm.Mm-hmm.

[00:52:53] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I practice photography too. I know the importance of perspective. it's everything actually like the perspective, finding the right [00:53:00] perspective.

[00:53:01] Dr. Ozgur Koca: But say you are looking at this glass from this perspective only from below, right?

[00:53:06] Imam Tariq: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:07] Dr. Ozgur Koca: And you do this your entire life. You can only see this part, right, what is below. But if you do this perspective journey, go here and take a picture and go here another, take a picture. And if you, this perspective journey, you can come to understand this glass,better.

[00:53:23] Dr. Ozgur Koca: then we're, if we were trying to know our Lord, we do need help. we help each other. We do need to learn from each other. Otherwise,we can be really benefiting from that richness from a very limited way. so Bayan in my view is creating this opportunity, for perspective journeys.

[00:53:44] Imam Tariq: Hmm hmm.

[00:53:46] Imam Tariq: Well, thank you so much. My last question is going to be what's next for you? You mentioned that you wanted to do two books that were more for academia and then you wanted to write for yourself. So what's [00:54:00] next?

[00:54:00] Dr. Ozgur Koca: yeah. Actually, I wrote two books and I'm working on another one. This is going to be a translation and commentary.

[00:54:06] Dr. Ozgur Koca: this is both for the academia and for the, interested Muslim,readers, not only Muslim, non-Muslim. Also, I think this is a book on social metaphysics. I believe a lot of people will be interested in this. This is still, I believe, somewhere between academia and,general audience.

[00:54:21] Dr. Ozgur Koca: my next book,I am actually working on a book,Which I call God beyond doubt. I almost,am done with it. here I am focusing on the question of whether can God be known beyond any doubt, with an utmost certainty and what Muslim,intellectual and spiritual tradition,said about this, and what is the relevance of it today?

[00:54:44] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I think I'm trying to address this,crisis of,belief and certainty and belief and all of that. I just see that as a humble contribution to that. And after that, I'm,also started to, bring the file together and that is going to be, focusing on the question of,[00:55:00] serenity, bliss and fate.

[00:55:02] Dr. Ozgur Koca: things like that, happiness I must also add this, since I spent a lot of years studying metaphysical, philosophical, theological texts. Right. my writing, even though I'm writing for the general I think is being affected by it. I'm trying to make it as accessible as possible.

[00:55:19] Dr. Ozgur Koca: I think we all carry our history with us.

[00:55:23] Imam Tariq: You're in too deep. You're in too deep

[00:55:24] Dr. Ozgur Koca: Yeah. I went too deep, like having difficulty coming back.

[00:55:28] Imam Tariq: It was really a pleasure talking to you. I look forward to your future work. That brings us to the end of this episode of the American Muslim Podcast.

[00:55:39] Imam Tariq: I want to thank our guest, Dr. Ozgur Koca for a truly enlightening conversation. Dr. Koca has taught courses such as Islamic Ethics and Muslim spirituality among others at Bayan Islamic Graduate School. You can find the links for Dr. Koca's books in our show notes, so be sure to check those out. And if you enjoyed this episode, [00:56:00] be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, leave a review, and most importantly, share this conversation with others.

[00:56:07] Imam Tariq: Right sharing is caring. You can follow me on Instagram and Facebook @ImamTariqElAmin to stay connected and continue the conversation. If you'd like to support the work of Bayan Islamic graduate School, consider donating to the Muhammad Ali Scholarship Fund. More than 70% of our students are scholarship recipients, and your support makes a lasting impact.

[00:56:30] Imam Tariq: And finally, join our community of learners by getting your bayan on demand all access pass. For just $10 a month, you'll gain unlimited access to over 30 courses taught by leading Muslim scholars and educators, and we continue to add content as we go on. Alright, until next time I leave you, as I greeted you, As Salaamu Alaikum , may the peace that only God can give be upon you. [00:57:00]