Perry Maughmer [00:00:00]:

Welcome to the Potential Leader Lab and I'm your host, Perry Maughmer. And on this episode number 74, I am talking to Joe Boyd and we're gonna talk about how stories and storytelling drive emotions and connection with people. And I hope you really enjoy the conversation with Joe. And without further ado, here it is. Alright, Joe. Well, it's great having you on the podcast. I know we could go a lot of different ways with this, but I thought we'd start with I guess I wanna tie in I love what you do with storytelling, and and I think it's really important for leaders and organizations and and individuals. And I like how you leverage, Campbell's work.

Perry Maughmer [00:00:41]:

So so why don't we start with that? Why don't you why don't you take us through how you came up with that, what your what your kind of version of that is, and how you help people, and then we'll just, roll with some questions after everybody gets a firm understanding of how you approach it.

Joe Boyd [00:00:56]:

Sure. It I've I've been a storyteller my whole life, so I guess I approach it as a, you know, someone who sort of naturally understood story kinda growing up and and and was an actor and a performer. I was a group kinda religious and went went to seminary, was a preacher for a while. But all that is sort of similar in the sense of you're you're trying to get people's attention through a story. And one of the things I I noticed, I guess, even through my, like, early religious training practice is that stories motivate people and create feelings, and facts and data and commands don't. So early on, I I sort of I guess I was a good storyteller, and then I saw the power of it. And that led me to study, storytelling in and of itself. So, reading Joseph Campbell's work and, that leading me to folks like Carl Jung and others to kinda help me see that we are all living our own story, and we all sort of put ourselves in the hero role.

Joe Boyd [00:01:59]:

So if your listeners don't know, Campbell's most famous works are, he's one called the Power of Myth. That's a nice kind of intro, and then he has one called, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, where he studied every story he could find in every civilization and saw that it was the same story over and over and over with different names and different characters, but hitting the same beats every time. So, you know, he's super smart and has, like, I don't know, 20 to 30 different parts of every story. So I I wanted to make that, as simple as possible to understand in really broad strokes, because I'm not I'm not academician. I'm, I'm living in the real world just trying to help people tell the better stories. So for, for a good chunk of my career, twelve years or so, I did a lot of story consulting with, like, Fortune 100 companies and, startups and nonprofits trying to help them figure out how to view the life through that story lens. So I I got it down to five things in my mind, so it's it's always starts with a hero. It can be a heroine.

Joe Boyd [00:02:53]:

It's, it's not gender specific, but there's a hero that's living in a normal world, and they want a treasure. So the treasure is always twofold. Right? It's always on the nose, like, they want an adventure or they want a girlfriend or they want money or something. But underneath that, there's always a deeper treasure. They usually want acceptance or forgiveness or something like that. So the hero is always looking for a treasure, but they can't get it. They're not strong enough. They They can't even get to the place where the treasure is.

Joe Boyd [00:03:21]:

So, a a dragon kinda stands in the way of them like a monster and antagonist. Often in these old mythic tales, they're literal dragons, literal sea monsters, like in Beowulf or something. But then a mentor comes along, and the mentor is the Obi Wan Kenobi, the Gandalf that gives them a sword. It's often a literal sword in all these stories, like Excalibur or a lightsaber or something. And the sword is also on two levels. So it's the it's the physical power that can defeat the dragon, but really it represents what's inside the hero, like the force or whatever. But those five points then. So a hero who meets a mentor who gives them a sword who defeats the dragon to get the treasure.

Joe Boyd [00:03:59]:

I I use those as the cliff notes to kind of have, everyone sort of talk about their story and then, you know, in consultation, kinda break down, your communication strategy around this or your how you, you know, your your company culture around this is it's the story friendly culture, stuff like that. So that that's that's the bulk of what I've been doing for the last part of my career.

Perry Maughmer [00:04:22]:

Okay. Awesome. What so, you know, hero, mentor, sword, dragon, treasure. Right?

Joe Boyd [00:04:28]:

Yep. That's it.

Perry Maughmer [00:04:29]:

And so so my question is, just out of curiosity, because I I I kinda see this sometimes when I'm working with folks, how how challenged are people oftentimes to actually be able to clearly identify and describe and and come to terms with the treasure that they really want?

Joe Boyd [00:04:54]:

I mean, it's harder for yourself. Like, a lot of the work I do, you're you're you make assumptions. So if this is a if we're working on a marketing campaign, then we're you're not the hero. That's the number one thing to realize in that scenario. Right? You're always the mentor. Your product's always the sword. So you make assumptions around the people that would need your product and what their treasures are. For us as individuals, when we try to factor in our own life and figure it out, we usually kinda know, what our, on the nose treasure is.

Joe Boyd [00:05:22]:

Usually, for some of us, it was a little shallow, and we hate to say it, but, you know, it's usually something like, Yeah. I want I wanna make more money, so I can go on better vacations. I want my boss to quit me in a dick. I want, you know, like, I want, my wife and I to have a better relationship and not fight anymore. You know, it's it's usually pretty on the surface, and sometimes maybe it's so obvious we don't see it. Now the underneath, the real wound that we're trying to to solve, I don't I don't think it we generally have a very good idea of that until, you know, later on in life, once we've been through enough sort of pile, pain and kind of self reflection. But, we discovered in the journey. Right? So we during the journey, we we start to see, oh, you know, like, maybe I really just feel like, maybe some sort of loneliness or maybe it's I don't feel like I had a family or I felt rejected since I was a kid.

Joe Boyd [00:06:14]:

Like, those things start to emerge, but usually it's in the process of just trying to get the girl to date me or get a raise.

Perry Maughmer [00:06:22]:

Yeah. And I think it and this kinda dovetails into, you know, the stuff that I enjoy, the stuff I work with is more, existential. Right? So I I I would do a lot of work with I think a lot of a lot of what I do is influenced by people like Jean Paul Sartre and Nietzsche and Kierkegaard and, you know, Heidegger and all those guys. And and this is the act into being kind of theory. Right? It is you have to start. And and it's interesting because that hero's journey is a journey. And and I think that the treasure, as you so aptly said, you start off by looking at the one thing and you start that that start that journey, you start that odyssey, you know, you start that expedition, and I and or quest. You know, I love the term quest.

Perry Maughmer [00:07:06]:

But I think you start that and then along the line, when you start along the way, when you start doing some of this stuff, those things start to bubble up for us. And I think that that that's a really important part of leadership is the willingness to live with that ambiguity and realize you're setting a direction. And that direction might change at some point and being open to that change and not being so, so convinced that the thing that you said earlier on was the only thing because I think that shuts off the opportunities to see what you create as you go.

Joe Boyd [00:07:41]:

Yes. And you learn it you learn it two ways or both ways. Right? Like, if you actually get what you'd take your treasure as it never satisfies. It always feels kinda lame. It's like when you were a kid and look forward for Christmas, and then the day after Christmas, you're like, you know, I got what I wanted, but now what? And if you never get it, then you you find it through, like, sort of trial, perseverance, pain, and and and feeling inept or whatever. But it it works both ways. Right? It's the the treasure is not really that great in the end. It's the journey itself.

Joe Boyd [00:08:14]:

That's why that's why the boon, that's why the elixir, that's why the hero has to go back to where he started or she started and bring with them, you know, sometimes the pot of gold, but usually the lessons learned, bring them back to their people, to kinda teach them that thing. And then they they slide into the mental role at that point.

Perry Maughmer [00:08:33]:

Yeah. And I think that's another interesting piece. I I'm I'm a big fan of Carl Jung and and and also, Campbell. And it's because of the, I don't know how else to say it, but it's it's a process orientation. Right? It's not an outcome orientation. And I Yeah. There's one of our cognitive biases, one of the 80 they've identified is the arrival fallacy. The very thing you just said, which is we think that once we arrive or we get something, that fixes something.

Perry Maughmer [00:09:00]:

And very rarely is that lasting or sustainable. It just leads to the next thing. And, you know, I I told I told a group while you were actually with me, the group that you spoke came down and spoke to, last week. And I said, you know, when you that's why I was never a big fan of the whole, mountain climbing, analogy metaphor that people use nowadays. You see it all over the place. And I said, well, it works if you use a mountain range. Right? Because once you summit, you're when you summit, it changes your perspective of the horizon. And so now you see more things to do.

Perry Maughmer [00:09:34]:

So I I think it's and that's why what I do, it's very much about being relentless because it is that kind of this this journey, this and you mentioned it, which is a really interesting transition for people that you do the journey again. You just are no longer the hero. You're the mentor, but you're still involved in the journey. So this is not a one and done kind of thing. Do you do you find that with the stuff that you do and with the people that you talk to?

Joe Boyd [00:09:56]:

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And it's cyclical. It's, like, doubles on itself and it's cyclical. You're you're doing multiple journeys at one time. So I don't know if you're ever, like, so evolved that you never see yourself as a hero. I think we always have a hero's journey that we're going on. But the the more sort of enlightened, evolved, you know, screwed up you get, however you wanna think about it, the more you start to enter stories purposely as a mentor instead of as a hero.

Joe Boyd [00:10:19]:

And that that's the big change is realizing you can actually choose how you enter a story or a room, you know, and and be more concerned about helping others than helping yourself. On the mountain thing, I I I got to interview Richard Rohr, who's a Franciscan, priest, kind of a little bit of a Catholic rebel and but he, his books have always meaningful to me, and I never met him. And I got to interview him a few years ago, and I, I said, you know, in my twenties, I said I was an evangelical church planter pastor. I started church and, and he's well, first he said, I don't know why you evangelical pastors like me so much. He was like, I'm Catholic. You know? It was just funny. And then he, but then he's like, the first thing he asked me is like, what was the name of your church, which I thought was such a weird name? And I said, well, I call it we called it Apex because we were trying to, it's a Gen x church when we were young. He's like, of course, she did.

Joe Boyd [00:11:08]:

He said, that makes all the sense in the world. You had a mountain name. He's like, the first half of your life is all about trying to climb that mountain. Of course, you named it that. I was like, alright, Richard Gore. There you go.

Perry Maughmer [00:11:18]:

Well, that's and I think it's, Brooks. I forget his first name. Arthur Brooks, who wrote the it's the second the second mountain. Right? It's always the first mountain climb and then the second mountain. And the other piece of this that's, for me is really interesting is when you think about the the hero's journey and all those pieces, one of the things that spun off in my head is that leaders as as a leader, it's interesting because as the hero or the mentor, mentor very much so, but recognizing that you do participate and play a role in someone else's story. Because I all we're all humans, like, so we're always the star of our own story. We're we're always the star of our own movie. But it's interesting when we sit back and we think about the role we play, the supporting role we can play in other people's journeys.

Perry Maughmer [00:12:02]:

And to me, that's a really powerful thing as you stated because you're going through multiple ones at the same time. If you have kids and family and a company and you're leading a team, to to fully recognize you're not the hero in every story. And Right. You know, and and Yeah. That's something I think that is is so powerful to take on that best supporting actor or actress role, vibrantly for somebody else.

Joe Boyd [00:12:26]:

Absolutely. You know, sometimes you're the dragon too. And and sometimes, you're the you're the treasure. But, the, you know, I just wrote today on my, on my sub stack about, the red shirts in Star Trek. Uh-huh. And how they always die in the first scene or whatever or, NPCs in a video game. Not only are you sometimes a mentor in story, sometimes you're a red shirt. And, and I wrote about how when, just two lessons when I think about that is, sometimes we let red shirts control our narrative.

Joe Boyd [00:12:59]:

They they actually aren't. They're just there to to go away. Like, there's lots of people in our life that we may interact with a day or a month or a year, and they really aren't supposed to be shaping our story, but we will give them authority over our story. They'll hijack it. And then the other thing is sometimes we're a red shirt. Right? We we aren't the mentor. We aren't very important actually in someone's story at all. We're just there to pass through.

Joe Boyd [00:13:21]:

And our pride can make us want to have an influence on that story. And sometimes I said it's not it's not failure to be a red shirt in someone's shirt. It's actually freedom because you don't you don't have to worry about their story. You can focus on on the ones you're supposed to be in. But, anyway, that I just heard about that today, but it it is we're entering everyone everyone in the meeting, we're entering their story somewhere. But it it could be a mentor, but it could be just a you know, that one somebody's gotta get the role in a movie to sell you the coffee at the Starbucks. That might be our role in their life.

Perry Maughmer [00:13:52]:

Yeah. And I and I think that's, it's to your point, I think it, the the you said you used the term freeing, and I think it is. There is a sense of freedom in knowing that you don't have to be a a main character and everything. But I but I think it's hard for humans. Right? And especially hard for people in leadership roles because they take on the mantle of responsibility and most of the time very seriously, but I think sometimes far too seriously and they they try to they try to be everything to everybody. And then you're no you can't be either nothing to anybody. Yeah. Right.

Perry Maughmer [00:14:28]:

Nice. But but it's just interesting if we sat back and kind of created that that list of all the people in our lives and kinda figure out what what what role like, to your point, am I am I the dragon in this particular one? Am I the hero? Am I the mentor? Am I a red shirt? Am I just am I just playing a little part and then moving on? And then the freedom that would come along with that, I think, would be would be pretty dramatic, I would think.

Joe Boyd [00:14:53]:

I think so. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, it's hard enough to, it's hard enough to live our own story when we start putting pressure on ourselves to play roles in others. That's a lot. That's a lot, and it's their story. So ultimately, they have creative control. Right? They're, they're gonna decide if we're the mentor or not, no matter what we wanna be. We can offer it.

Joe Boyd [00:15:14]:

We can be available to it. We can be open to it. So I I I just noticed as people get kinda more it's a shift in why you want to be a mentor. Right? Like, I remember wanting to be seen as a mentor in my twenties because I thought I was really smart, and I thought people couple years younger than me should want to learn from me, but that was all pride ego stuff. And now it's more of, an availability of being present to see if see if this is somewhere that I could be helpful or useful. The, I wrote wrote about Nelson Mandela recently as well where he, you know, like a revolutionary who is, has a a good cause, but ends up, you know, in prison, for decades. And he he comes out so different, but with the same cause and looking for a place to be useful. And, there's something about that that, maybe in my fifties now, I'm trying to think through that more.

Perry Maughmer [00:16:19]:

Well and I think too, and we we didn't really talk about it, and and and you can share how that how this impacted you, but the the improv work that you that you did in your in your life and how that impacted what you do because I I think there's such a humility in in that that transitions over into what you're talking about because it's so funny. And I don't think most people I mean, most people outside when you're looking at somebody doing improv wouldn't think humility. But listening to you, having the chance to listen to you a couple times with groups and talking about, you know, when somebody starts the scene, whoever gets to start it starts it, and then the it's up to the other person to to contribute. Like, you can't you can't and it was so interesting because, you know, somebody and I'm sure you give an example. They say this one thing, and you can't then go another direction. Your job is to embrace that and roll with it and and make it into something so that the two people there or the three people there are now creating co creating something. And I think that does take a tremendous, a tremendous, sense of humility to participate in that just like it does in leadership, but I'd like to hear what you think.

Joe Boyd [00:17:27]:

Yeah. Yeah. For your listeners just getting to know me, I've had a weird career, by the way, so I was I was a I was a preacher and then I kinda burned out on that and and then I became a, an improviser, a comedian in Vegas working for the second city and doing, improv shows and stuff like that. So, you know, improv not stand up. There's a difference. So we're making up stories on the spot with a group of people. You're absolutely right. I mean, I think, you know, I would, I would go back to the word trust.

Joe Boyd [00:17:55]:

Not that humility is not part of it, but, you are trusting that your partner is going to be listening to you. And, we in Second City World, anyway, before every single show, we go around, we hit everybody we're playing with on the shoulder and say, I got your back. That's just a tradition we have. But that is that's it. Like, I got your back. So, I'm not gonna deny you. If you if you come out and say you're a doctor, I'm not gonna make you a zookeeper. I got your back.

Joe Boyd [00:18:22]:

If you screw up and I say you're a doctor and you say you're a zookeeper, I got your back. You're both. We'll figure it out. So I think that that is humility in the sense of I'm not driving the scene. We're doing it together. We're better together than we are on on our own. That's why we're not doing stand up comedy. But, but I think it's really rooted in it's rooted in how list real deep listening creates trust, And and I'm sure you have to have humility to to be able to do that at some level.

Perry Maughmer [00:18:53]:

Oh, and also vulnerability. Right? I mean, you gotta be willing to step out there and and and you just said I got you know, everybody says you got your back. That's the vulnerability comes after that because I go, yeah, I can I can I can take a risk, because I know I have these this person or these people who are gonna be there regardless? You know? We're we'll figure it out. And and that's the other thing you said. It was, there's never anything wrong. You just keep going. And I think that's a life lesson. Right? I mean, the hero's journey or any of those things, that's life.

Perry Maughmer [00:19:21]:

I mean, there nothing wrong. You just gotta keep going. Yeah. Because oftentimes, if we get so hung up in right and wrong, did I do it well? Did I fail? Did I you know, we've talked about the arrival fallacy, but on failure on the other side, I think it was, credited to Mike Ditka. It's like six you know, failure is never fatal and success is never final. And all of that is, you know and I think these these, and it's actually why I had you speak to the group because that those those precepts, those concepts of of improv, to me, are so meaningful in just human relations, let alone transitioning over to leadership. And and I'm sure, you know, you probably have thoughts on that as well.

Joe Boyd [00:20:00]:

Yeah. For sure. I mean, I think when when when we say an improv, like, there are no mistakes or just keep going anymore. It's always a weird thing to teach people at first because I you teach them the rules, and then you say there's no mistakes, because we're all gonna actually break the rules. But what we mean by no mistakes is you keep going, and we we use the term justify, like you justify it. So, if if a mistake is made, like if, the one I just said, like, we we said you were doctor and a zookeeper, that's pretty easy. Right? We just make you a vet. But in the process, we figure it out.

Joe Boyd [00:20:31]:

So what we don't say what it the opposite of justifying is trying to, you know, say, I'm you don't deny. I'm not a zookeeper. I said I was a doctor. That's an early improv level one class scene that I've seen a million times when I teach people. Right? We're just now we're just gonna argue about who I am, whereas we wanna say, yes. I am, and we wanna get to a place. And I think in the real world, it's that's about, it's, you know, just it's not justifying the rule, but it's about accepting, that, you know, I'm in a room with a meeting. I mean, how how many times have you been here? You're meeting with couple people, maybe, you know, a client, one of your employees or whatever, and they're telling two different stories.

Joe Boyd [00:21:15]:

Like, they are not on the same page. They they are not and you as if you're a leader or a mediator or whatever, you have to accept both truths. You can't but this is where we are. You know what I mean? Like, when you have to and I think so many people don't like you don't like reality, so you reframe it as something else when sometimes better just to say yes and just call it out. Like, seems like we're telling two different stories here. Let's let's figure out what's going on, as opposed to kinda, like, avoiding maybe avoiding the health in the room or whatever.

Perry Maughmer [00:21:49]:

Well and also in that situation, trying to deny one or the other. Right? It's, like, both you when you have that situation, oftentimes, there are elements of truth in everything everybody's saying. Like, there is no right or wrong. It's just degrees. And and and being able to and I love that justify, not deny. It's, like, let's just talk about how these things what do we take from everybody and say, okay, elements of everything that are true. So what can we do with it now? Because you're still left with but I think we're so we lean so heavily in the judgment. That's our default.

Perry Maughmer [00:22:22]:

And I think and I don't think it's wrong because I think for a great deal of our percent of our lives, judgment's important, you know, right, wrong, good, bad, dangerous, safe, you know, we need those things. Our brain works that way. But there is that element, that percentage of the time where that works against us when we should be curious. You know, when we should because my the way I look at it is there's three things we can't do if we're judging. Three more very important things. They all begin with the letter l, and that's lead, love, and learn. We can't do any of those things if we're judging. And so Yeah.

Perry Maughmer [00:22:52]:

To that point, I don't I think you have to live in a little bit of ambiguity a lot of times, and I love that example. You're sitting there and you're and I I still it all goes back to what you said earlier. It all goes back to listening, like that really deep intent intentional listening to hear what people are saying and allow them not only can they say it, but they're allowed to say it. And and I think that's the great thing about the improv lessons is you're allowed to say anything as long as it moves things forward. And I think developing that muscle, and you saw this and I saw this with the group we were working with, they were so I just use the word tight. Like, they were so tight and rigid almost when you were asking them to do certain things. And and we talked about it after in the afternoon. It was just funny to to talk to them about it and get them to really sit with it, to think about, you know, nope.

Perry Maughmer [00:23:40]:

There was no judgment. Nobody was winning. Nobody was losing.

Joe Boyd [00:23:43]:

But Mhmm.

Perry Maughmer [00:23:44]:

So so many of them just couldn't do what we were asking what you were asking them to do.

Joe Boyd [00:23:51]:

Yeah. Yes. It was a little bit of a harder, crowd that day. They were more resistant, which is fine. And then I told you I got a nice note from the CEO later saying that was helpful, so I'm good. Yeah. But, one of the things improv teaches you when you so you do, like, an improv workshop. You make them do silly little games.

Joe Boyd [00:24:05]:

Right? That, the whole point is to look a little silly. Look, there's games I can make them play that look way sillier, so I'm just I'm treating I'm being nice to them. But, you see how everything's rooted in fear and insecurity. Mhmm. So how we can be afraid to just look silly in front of our coworkers. And, I I get it, but that's that's so deeply rooted in it. It there's a connection between some level of appropriate vulnerability about our fears and insecurities, you know, at work. Not all this isn't therapy, but some level of of it is what builds that trust.

Joe Boyd [00:24:45]:

And so there there's some connection in fear and trust. And, when in the real world, anytime I see defensiveness like you're talking about or judgment, you know, coming from religious world, plenty of that. So it's it's it's nearly always rooted in insecurity and your own fears. And, you know, it's a it's a classic almost trope at this point, but when the when the televangelist of the pastor falls because he has some sin, it's always the thing he preached against the most, whatever it is. Because, you know, we're it all of life is sort of like sometimes sometimes we aggressively judge the things in us, and and we never get more angry at other people than when they remind us of the the thing we don't want people to see in us.

Perry Maughmer [00:25:31]:

Well, and I think, and the the kind of the flips the more self aware side of that statement is I think it was Young who said the best way of dealing the in dealing, when we deal with the darkness in ourselves, it helps us deal with the darkness in others. Right? And and that's the flip side of not getting caught in that because once we can acknowledge the things that, you know, our own insecurities and fears, we don't project them onto other people and get hypersensitive to them.

Joe Boyd [00:25:57]:

Yeah. Absolutely. There and even if it's not the same insecurities you have, once you know you have them, you start to also see them in others, and it it you respond, you know, as ideally, this is my worldview. Like, right? Like, you you begin to respond more with empathy and grace than judgment because, you know, if they saw yours, it's no better. It's no better. It's like, that's what it's, you know, it's interesting how you study your whole life and end up back at the golden rule or whatever, but, like, in the end, it's like you treat people like you wanna be treated, and we are all pretty broken walking around, pretending like we're not. It's just some of us are aware of it and some aren't.

Perry Maughmer [00:26:36]:

And there was, and and I don't I don't wanna entirely I I I wanna I wanna get to a point or I wanted I wanted you to speak to something because it's it's kinda where we started with, storytelling and and leadership. But I find that and you said and you you you can bring it up again, but here's here was a gist that I took away. It was about how telling a story connects better than and you mentioned earlier, data and facts. And I think in in leader being a leader in an organization, you know, regardless of where it is, if it's a nonprofit, profit, doesn't matter. But it feels like a lot of times nowadays, we get so consumed with data and data points and facts that we start talking about that and we and we lack a story. And so we don't we feel misaligned because we're we're not be able to get our we're not be able we're not able to generate the response we want, but yet we're we're defaulting to talking about facts and data and rules and all of that. And how easy is it for you when you work with companies to get them to embrace the story and get rid of all the, you know, the the the features and the features and benefits?

Joe Boyd [00:27:47]:

Yeah. It's I mean, it's really hard. And because it it you know, I I spent a lot of my career helping people create, like, commercials and videos. So we'll go through this process mainly going through this process so we can figure out their next campaign or what the commercial and, you know, every every single time we'll go through this process, we'll have a draft that's really story driven, and they'll be they'll start editing it, and it gets edited by committee. And, I can't tell you how many times I I think we were like, this is gonna be this commercial. Once it airs, we're gonna get so much work from it because it's so great. It tells the story. People are gonna react to it.

Joe Boyd [00:28:23]:

And by the end, we don't even like it as creators because it gets the committee, or either the committee or just the CEO comes in from on high and starts taking the story out to put more facts and data in. I do understand the instinct because look, it's there is a point where where actually data does close a deal. And so, if you're actually down to try and decide between, you know, a Toyota, and a Nissan, maybe a chart comparison would help you make that final call. But until then, you're just trying to you're asking, can I trust this person, and and do they know me? Do they see me? Do they see what I want? So at that stage, it's it's all story. It's all connection. And we know that, you know, I'm certainly not a scientist, but, I've read a few of them. And what we know is that when people hear a story, they turn off the part of their brain that wants to argue until the story is over. Like, it just happens because we our brain so desperately want the story to finish.

Joe Boyd [00:29:26]:

We we turn off everything else. We're looking for beginning, middle, and end, resolution, and and then afterwards, we can judge it. But also when you say any fact, your brain does the opposite. If you just make a firm statement, your brain's going to automatically, for survival reasons, I think, ask, is that true? And you're gonna play devil's advocate or whatever. You don't play devil's advocate when people tell a story, typically, unless they've already you've already lost their trust or something. You let the story finish. So, and we even know people's brainwaves match up when they listen to a storyteller. It it has a a an interesting mysterious cosmic connection with people, and data doesn't do that.

Joe Boyd [00:30:07]:

Reading off facts does not make your brain it may it does the opposite. It makes us want to argue. So

Perry Maughmer [00:30:13]:

Well and that kinda takes us back to Campbell. Right? Because the storytelling is been done for, you know, whatever whatever you believe or how many years you wanna go back, you know, hundreds of thousands, millions, whatever. But that's that was really what Campbell said to me. He studied people all over the Earth everywhere, in every put in every conceivable location and and national and and nationality. And that's how he came up. He he said every story everybody is telling has the same components.

Joe Boyd [00:30:42]:

Yeah. That's why I love the hero with a thousand faces of the title. Right? Because it's, the faces change, but the story doesn't. It's it's always a search for meaning and, redemption at some level. So it's what that tells us is that it's our human, I don't know, it's like it's like our, I don't know. Spiritual is a weird word, but it's like our psychological DNA maybe. Like, it's it's as much as now we crack the code on physically our DNA, there is, through millennia of struggle. We we also are born into a a species that has its own psychological, DNA, and it's it's all story, story driven.

Joe Boyd [00:31:25]:

That's how we make meaning, and we we're desperate for meaning that because we are, for better or worse, self aware. Yeah. Some of us.

Perry Maughmer [00:31:34]:

Well, and I think too that would also just the the point that we tell a story where in in in Campbell's version, you go into the underworld or whatever that is, that in in the story is the brokenness that you mentioned earlier, which is just, you know, it it is pretty, it's not really overwhelming, but it's it's almost, it's awe inspiring when you think of, you know, people sitting around a campfire in Sub Saharan Africa and people in Asia and people in, you know, the Arctic. And no matter what, they're all telling, you know, every every as you as you can ascribe to, every great movie or book or anything anybody's ever done always has the same process in in some way, shape, or form.

Joe Boyd [00:32:16]:

Yeah. And just to, like I love the one you brought up. So it's we have to go to the depths of the cave or the belly of the whale. So you got the Jonas over at the belly of the whale. Right? But that's a per that's a fun that's clearly from my perspective a myth about when you get swallowed up by life and you're just stuck in the darkness. But, keep it in religious tradition, Jesus has to go on a tomb for three days. If you go over to, like, you know, more, like, Gandalf when he fights the Balrog or whatever, he has to fall. It's all you're using descending into the earth in these stories over and over again.

Joe Boyd [00:32:48]:

Beowulf when, they defeats Skrendal, but now he has to defeat Skrendal's mother who's, like, the the mother of his fears. So he has to go deep into the water to do that. Harry Potter goes into some deep forest. Like, it's it's just every single movie you watch, and every ancient story or modern story you see, you're like, oh, there it is. There it is. They went to the cave. And the easy Luke's I know I'm a nerd on this stuff. Right? But, in Return of the Jedi, so Luke has to literally go into the bows of the Death Stars.

Joe Boyd [00:33:17]:

They're destroyed at once. Now they rebuilt it. So he's gotta go in there and face his his huge treasure temptation, which is to, to have control and to have meaning and let the emperor be his father figure. So he's gotta kill the emperor, say, he's on that. Like, it's all in there. But it's all this, descent into, the cave or the belly of the whale or or the depths. And so when what if if you put it in your own story, what does that feel like? Well, it feels dark and empty and scary and cold and alone. Like, it feels like you're in the middle of the earth all alone.

Joe Boyd [00:33:51]:

So that's you can see why, you know, as our ancestors became self aware and and wanted to to tell truths, they these are all it's all just metaphor. And any great, you know, any great truth must have metaphor. If if you if you can explain something without metaphor, it's not a very deep truth. So we have to we had to create those metaphors to try to explain why is there suffering, why is there pain, why am I going through this.

Perry Maughmer [00:34:22]:

And so let let's let's take that and move to my my final question for you. So why is it important or not not important. Why could it be beneficial? Let's put it this way. Because nobody has to do this. But why would it be beneficial for, anybody that leads an organization to have a clear grasp of both their story and the organization's story?

Joe Boyd [00:34:50]:

I guess I'd go back to, like, the hero's journey for them and the the on the nose and the deeper level. So on the nose, if you don't know your story, you're gonna you're gonna eventually go bankrupt. Like, if you, you know, you just you have to know what you're where you're going. You have to have a vision, and you have to know who your customer client, the person is you're serving, and what they want. And you have to put it in story terms or you won't get their attention. So, you know, most people most entrepreneurs kinda have to get it. Like, it's not like you're not doing it. It's just that you, your instincts got you so far, but now we need to really step back and say, like, look.

Joe Boyd [00:35:26]:

Like, it your instincts are right. You had to tell a story you did, but you weren't very intentional about it, really. You just kinda did it. So or, you grew so fast. This happens a lot. Right? A company grows so fast. They have three or four stories, and now it's just a mess. And now it's it's but the the growth can cover up your lack of attention to your story for a while, just like it can cover up lack of, you know, you know, structure or integrity or whatever.

Joe Boyd [00:35:52]:

But, eventually, you'll figure it out. But on the deeper level, then I would say, what what what surprised me that probably it shouldn't is, it started, like, right before COVID and then a lot after that. A lot of the companies that were using my services or, for outward outward focused communication, like marketing or whatever, shifted my work to HR. Like, suddenly, the HR director started becoming the people hiring me, because the they realized their company was not a story friendly company, not a story driven culture. They realized that when we tell stories, we create more belonging and a safer place. And, you know, that's really sort of my my jam anyway. Like, I'm a I'm a little more into, like, helping people be better people and get along and than I am selling mops or whatever I was doing. So I have enjoyed that that, but as as I think about it, it it it's like it is both things.

Joe Boyd [00:36:45]:

Right? So these you know, you can help a company figure out what their perceived treasure is, which is some sort of ROI always. But underneath it, what they actually will want is to, like, show up to work and be okay. Like, you know, even even for the owner, if I'm making a ton of money, but I gotta go work every day and it's miserable because we can't get on the same page, Like, that that's a that's a deeper heart level treasure that, that they sort of had the same solution, right, which is to tell to tell the same story to to trust and listen and and not be driven by our insecurities and all that kind of stuff.

Perry Maughmer [00:37:21]:

Well, I can see why, companies with the HR, you know, that the people side of the business wanted to talk to you because, you know, it's it's like the opportunity when we talk about data and story, you know, putting out a job description that has job responsibilities and all of those data points, all those facts. Yeah. It doesn't elicit any kind of emotional it actually gives you every reason not to go to work there as opposed to if they have a great story they can share. It's it's it's lessening, which I love what you said. You know, nobody when you're hearing a story, nobody wants to argue with it. You know, it isn't you're not you're not finding fault with it. I I I once heard, and this goes to a resume too, but I actually heard somebody say, a resume is just a list of reasons why somebody wouldn't wanna hire you. And so why do you send it? But but it's that point.

Perry Maughmer [00:38:03]:

Right? It's like it's not a story. It's just a bunch of facts that I can quickly say, oh, I disagree with that. That's not right. That doesn't fit. That kind of thing.

Joe Boyd [00:38:11]:

Yeah. And the other thing I'd say is you ask a HR director, you know, where where have you gotten your best employees? And, you know, they're they're almost always gonna say, referrals. Right? Like, either someone that works here said that or someone that knows about us, a customer referred them. Well, that's storytelling. Like, that if you're recruiting, they they already know the very best way to get good people work here is to let is to create a culture where other people want to invite their friends to work there. That's that's it. So, and that's another great example of how if we think of hiring as a list of data points, you're gonna get this salary, this health care, you can get this many weeks vacation. It's not that that stuff doesn't matter, but, if you get a pretty good offer, but then you you got a buddy that works there, he's like, this place sucks.

Joe Boyd [00:39:02]:

Like, it's awful. You don't or, you know, or maybe you're deciding between two and one pays a little less, a little less vacation, but you have people saying, I've never been happier, like, they they treat you like a human, like so you're just gonna go with the story. You're always gonna go the the story is how you make a decision no matter what the, you know, unless you can unless you can trump the story in your head. So if I think I'm gonna make a hundred thousand, they're saying I'll pay you 2,000,000 a year, you're like, I can tell a story where I'm miserable for two years. That that I'm I can live that story. You know, the something can be so seemingly good that you're gonna say yes to it. But generally speaking, it's it's gonna be like, is this a story I wanna align myself with?

Perry Maughmer [00:39:45]:

Yeah. It's awesome. Well, Joe, it's been great. I appreciate your time

Joe Boyd [00:39:49]:

Yeah.

Perry Maughmer [00:39:49]:

And I appreciate your insight and all of the things you shared because they're very meaningful, I think, to people, and it and it's something that everybody knows about, but I don't think always connects the dots. Why don't you before before we're done here, why don't you tell everybody where they can find you so if they they do like what you do, they can get ahold of you.

Joe Boyd [00:40:08]:

Sure. Joeboyd.net, and I don't have .com because it's $5,000. That's the joke there, and that's true. So it's joeboyd.net. That's that's, like, where you can learn about my speaking workshops and and book me for something if you want that. I also have a sub stack that's called called foradventure, called foradventure.com. I write every day about storytelling. That's completely free if you just want some, some storytelling stuff, and then I'm on, pretty easy to find on LinkedIn.

Joe Boyd [00:40:35]:

So not that hard to get to.

Perry Maughmer [00:40:37]:

Alright. Awesome. Well, I certainly appreciate your time and your energy and your insights, and I look forward to working with you again soon.

Joe Boyd [00:40:45]:

Thanks, Perry. Appreciate it.