Speaker: 00:00:00

For me personally,

00:00:01,543 --> 00:00:03,586

speaking autobiographically, is

that was one of the things

00:00:03,586 --> 00:00:07,382

that sort of turned me off to Revelation

was like, it's all this weird.

00:00:07,382 --> 00:00:08,883

Everyone's like all hyped up about this

00:00:08,883 --> 00:00:12,345

weird, this weird debates over arcane

matters, right?

00:00:12,846 --> 00:00:15,515

And then when I started studying it

more in depth,

00:00:15,515 --> 00:00:19,019

in the context of New Testament studies

and Second Temple Jewish literature

00:00:19,019 --> 00:00:22,022

and such and the Old Testament,

I start realizing, whoa,

00:00:22,063 --> 00:00:26,317

this book is not about,

quibbling over, you know,

00:00:27,694 --> 00:00:29,446

lines on a prophecy chart.

00:00:29,446 --> 00:00:32,449

It's about weaving together

the whole story of the Bible

00:00:32,449 --> 00:00:36,536

and calling us to live in a certain way

because, you know, a different,

00:00:36,536 --> 00:00:38,663

basically a different packaging

of the same teaching

00:00:38,663 --> 00:00:40,707

that the rest of the New Testament

has, you know,

00:00:40,707 --> 00:00:43,793

and then I think it's something

that can be exciting and not, either

00:00:43,793 --> 00:00:48,381

dry and arcane

or sort of unnecessarily, divisive.

00:00:54,095 --> 00:00:57,015

Well Paul

Lamicela welcome back to the podcast.

00:00:57,015 --> 00:00:59,809

So we did a podcast with you

a few months ago

00:00:59,809 --> 00:01:01,936

on how to read the Book of Revelation.

00:01:01,936 --> 00:01:02,771

Needless to say,

00:01:02,771 --> 00:01:06,649

we got an enormous amount of feedback

and a lot of questions about that.

00:01:07,275 --> 00:01:10,695

And people wanting us to do follow up

and something that maybe

00:01:10,695 --> 00:01:11,863

our audience doesn't know.

00:01:11,863 --> 00:01:14,866

But a lot of the episodes

we do actually come from audience,

00:01:15,283 --> 00:01:18,536

questions or suggestions like, hey,

you should, you should do one on this.

00:01:18,536 --> 00:01:19,746

And then, oh yeah, we'll do that.

00:01:19,746 --> 00:01:22,415

So this time around,

we want to acknowledge those questions,

00:01:22,415 --> 00:01:25,710

actually just do more of a Q&A

ish on the feedback

00:01:25,710 --> 00:01:28,463

that we got, which was a lot.

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Yeah.

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So, there was a lot of questions,

and we're just going to hit

00:01:31,549 --> 00:01:35,553

at least a try to be representative

of the main ones that we got, and no way

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we're going to cover them all.

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But but yeah.

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So we'll jump in and just,

see where we end up.

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I've noticed there's tends

to be a good amount of interest in

00:01:43,853 --> 00:01:46,606

when I talk about Revelation, when,

you know, it

00:01:46,606 --> 00:01:49,943

seems common that people seem to be it's

a topic people seem to be interested in.

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Yeah. Do you have theories as to.

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I mean, I am too, so I get it.

00:01:53,488 --> 00:01:56,491

But like,

do you have theories as to as on that?

00:01:56,658 --> 00:01:58,660

What is it with American.

00:01:58,660 --> 00:02:03,039

The American interpretation of Revelation

just seems to result

00:02:03,039 --> 00:02:04,249

in lots of conversation.

00:02:04,249 --> 00:02:04,791

Yeah.

00:02:04,791 --> 00:02:07,168

You know, and maybe some people are, like,

wondering

00:02:07,168 --> 00:02:10,964

if there's ways that they can read it

that might resonate with them better.

00:02:10,964 --> 00:02:12,632

I don't know,

but there's there's a lot of questions.

00:02:12,632 --> 00:02:13,967

It's interesting. Yeah.

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So one of the, one of the big ones

00:02:16,553 --> 00:02:19,597

is, for example,

and these are more samples.

00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:21,891

So this this is I got this

from a number of different people.

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So I just kind of do it in my own words.

00:02:23,810 --> 00:02:25,770

But what is the rapture?

00:02:25,770 --> 00:02:29,065

We did not talk about that specifically

when we did the other one.

00:02:29,107 --> 00:02:31,734

It was more generally like,

how do we read Revelation?

00:02:31,734 --> 00:02:32,861

So the rapture is a big one.

00:02:32,861 --> 00:02:34,028

You're going to hear about that

all the time.

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It's it's to the point

where it's such a well known thing.

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It's essentially bleed over

into pop culture in mainstream society,

00:02:41,828 --> 00:02:44,831

not just within the church,

which kind of blows my mind.

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Yeah. So what's the rapture? Yeah.

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And if

00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,881

you're, if people are interested,

maybe that was an allusion to the book

00:02:52,881 --> 00:02:56,009

by Daniel Hummel called The Rise

and Fall of Dispensationalism.

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Yeah. So if anyone's interested in.

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Yeah, it's a great book.

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It talks about how dispensationalism,

which is the kind of the the father is, is

00:03:05,268 --> 00:03:09,105

the is what made the rapture and certain

other ideas.

00:03:09,105 --> 00:03:12,108

Well, what invented them

and what made them popular.

00:03:12,650 --> 00:03:15,653

How that dominated American evangelicalism

and then

00:03:16,029 --> 00:03:20,658

mostly died out in academic circles,

but at the same time

00:03:20,658 --> 00:03:23,661

crossed over into pop culture

and sort of total totally took over.

00:03:23,786 --> 00:03:25,872

That's a great

that's a great book for anyone.

00:03:25,872 --> 00:03:29,667

Any nerd out there who's interested

It's it's yes, it's fairly detailed.

00:03:29,792 --> 00:03:32,545

And there's It is. But it's

well it's well done.

00:03:32,545 --> 00:03:33,129

And it's

00:03:33,129 --> 00:03:36,674

if you're like if interested in modern

Christian history, it's just so cool.

00:03:37,383 --> 00:03:40,428

But maybe that's just the nerds,

the nerds in us talking.

00:03:41,554 --> 00:03:43,473

So the rapture is,

00:03:43,473 --> 00:03:47,310

when when we think of the rapture now,

we didn't talk about it in the other one

00:03:47,310 --> 00:03:50,980

in part, but for many reasons, but in part

because Revelation never mentions it.

00:03:51,439 --> 00:03:53,399

It's not in Revelation at all.

00:03:53,399 --> 00:03:56,653

But when we talk about the rapture,

we're usually talking about,

00:03:58,279 --> 00:04:03,534

this very specific dispensational idea

of the rapture, which is the certain way

00:04:03,534 --> 00:04:08,831

of reading the Bible and Revelation

that, is very kind of literalistic.

00:04:09,791 --> 00:04:11,417

There's a lot of things

we can't go into that.

00:04:11,417 --> 00:04:14,587

But basically it was invented

largely by this guy named

00:04:14,587 --> 00:04:17,590

John Nelson Darby in the 1800s in England.

00:04:18,007 --> 00:04:20,635

And then, came into the United States

00:04:20,635 --> 00:04:23,638

and for various reasons, including,

00:04:25,765 --> 00:04:26,849

being.

00:04:26,849 --> 00:04:30,270

Yeah, there's various reasons,

from Moody to Scofield that made it become

00:04:30,270 --> 00:04:33,940

super popular in America,

took over, American evangelicalism.

00:04:34,857 --> 00:04:37,402

Basically,

it's it's the idea from that way

00:04:37,402 --> 00:04:40,405

of schematizing the end times.

00:04:41,906 --> 00:04:44,117

And by the end times,

00:04:44,117 --> 00:04:46,911

we're talking about

sort of the last number of years before

00:04:46,911 --> 00:04:47,537

Jesus return,

100

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not the way the New Testament talks

about the end times,

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which is the whole period of time

from Jesus.

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That's that started with Jesus coming.

103

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You're saying when you say end times,

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we're using in the frame of reference

that you would typically see laid out in.

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Yeah.

106

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That evangelical style of there's

going to be this

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and then this is going to happen in

the global government

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is going to take over like the whole yeah,

the whole timeline, Yeah, that way,

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which is not how the New Testament uses

the term, not how I like to use the term,

110

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but where for now.

111

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Yeah. So, so,

112

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the idea that believers

will be caught up to meet

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Jesus as he's returning is something

that Christians all you know, all believe.

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But the specific kind of twist on this

115

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that dispensationalism

brought was this idea,

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that that the rapture is something where

117

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it's not it's not something that happens

at the end of the age

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when Jesus is returning for final judgment

and renewal of all things.

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But it's a sort of thing

that Jesus snatches away his people.

120

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And then there continues to be

121

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tribulation and all sorts of problems.

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And then Jesus returns later.

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Right.

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And and so there's different terms for why

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there's different understandings of this.

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But the most kind of classic one

is pre-tribulation,

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rapture or whatever,

where God's people are taken up

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before a what they view

as a seven year period

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of, of all sorts of terrible things

happening before Jesus finally return.

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But there's been other takes.

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Some people think the rapture would be

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in the middle

of those seven years or whatever.

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So from my perspective, there is no seven

years, you know, of of that.

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It's we're speaking Revelation,

I think, is speaking when it's

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and Matthew and other places

and speaking of this time of tribulation,

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it's speaking of this whole

era, where the beast is,

137

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is clashing with the people of Jesus,

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you know, and when God's judgments,

in a sense, are starting to be poured out.

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Right.

140

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So, but, the,

the idea of this rapture that that happens

141

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is taken really from first

Thessalonians four,

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where Paul says, and Paul is writing

to the Thessalonians to tell them, hey,

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because apparently some of them

are starting to get worried

144

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because some,

some of their loved ones are dying

145

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and they're like, wait, but they're dying.

146

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Jesus isn't back yet.

What's going to happen?

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And Paul says, don't worry,

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you will be with them again.

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We'll, we'll, we'll we'll be together.

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Sure.

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They're dead

now, but Jesus is going to raise them,

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and he's going to snatch you up as well,

and you'll be all together.

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You know, that's the context.

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But so he says that the trumpet will sound

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and, the Lord will descend from heaven.

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So he's coming down, right?

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And it says the dead in the Messiah

will rise first, and then all of us

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who remain will be snatched up

to meet him in the clouds.

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And then we will,

you know, be with the Lord forever.

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It says there's no hint there

that this is something that is separate

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from, at a different time

period from Jesus’ final return.

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The language of the trumpet.

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When Jesus descending, is the same types

of, you know, the trumpet language

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that we see in Revelation for

Jesus return, Jesus descending from heaven

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sounds a lot like what the angel said

when the disciples saw Jesus ascend.

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They'll say,

you'll see him in like manner descend.

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Right.

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So there's and you have the

resurrection of the dead at the same time.

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Right.

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And some people

tried to put a wedge in between that.

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But it really doesn't work like it.

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The whole point is that, look,

we'll all we'll all be together.

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The dead in Christ will rise. Yes.

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And they will maybe be first part of this

escort committee or whatever it is.

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But the point seems to be

this is Jesus return, right?

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And the snatching up is not a permanent.

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Now we go up to heaven.

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But it is, as Jesus is

come, is returning or whatever

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we’re

brought to be with him, to follow him

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as he as he presumably,

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returns to Earth

to bring about judgment and restoration.

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So all of this talk about the rapture

and these elaborate

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models that have been built,

184

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around this, all of that is based

185

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on that passage in, in Thessalonians,

That’s the main passage.

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So there's also the other

the other places, in Matthew 24,

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where Jesus speaks of you know,

signs of the end by which also, I think

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he's speaking of this whole well, he's

speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem

189

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and then the whole tribulation

of these, those days until his return.

190

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And he says, you know, be ready.

191

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And then he speaks of how,

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he will, you know,

193

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one will there'll be two people

doing the same activity together.

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The one will be taken, the other left,

and that,

195

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that probably provides fodder

for a lot of the 90s,

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pictures of sort of,

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from the Left Behind,

you know, series, that kind of That's

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what really brought it into pop culture.

199

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I mean, there's other things too,

but that was a really is so cinematic,

200

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classic imagery of,

201

00:09:50,548 --> 00:09:52,466

yeah, you know, people in an airplane

or whatever,

202

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and all of a sudden, like half the seats

are just, they're just clothes, you know.

203

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Yeah.

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And that

and that is such a, a stark image.

205

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It just gets stuck in the,

206

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you know, and it's like, well,

I guess it looks good in a story.

207

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But I think the piece with that

and I think that's why this person sent

208

00:10:09,692 --> 00:10:12,194

this in was just like, okay, but like,

what does Scripture say again?

209

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Like, like because the problem is it's

so hard to to peel back all the layers now

210

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because so many layers have been piled

on top from fiction and pop culture

211

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and just the assumed,

the dispensational edifice.

212

00:10:22,955 --> 00:10:24,540

It's a whole edifice, right? Yeah.

213

00:10:24,540 --> 00:10:27,376

there's this entire infrastructure

around this stuff.

214

00:10:27,376 --> 00:10:30,588

And so I know for myself it's just like,

I have no idea.

215

00:10:30,588 --> 00:10:33,424

Like I don't, you know,

it just gets so convoluted, so quickly.

216

00:10:33,424 --> 00:10:38,387

So, so you're essentially saying

what we think classically of

217

00:10:38,971 --> 00:10:42,058

this is what the rapture is going to look

like, is really just kind of not

218

00:10:42,183 --> 00:10:43,643

that's overblown.

219

00:10:43,643 --> 00:10:44,060

Yeah.

220

00:10:44,060 --> 00:10:45,561

And what's happening in Matthew 24,

221

00:10:45,561 --> 00:10:48,564

I think when Jesus speaks of the one

taken the other left, actually some

222

00:10:48,856 --> 00:10:51,692

there's no clarity on where they're taken

or why or anything like that.

223

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Right.

224

00:10:51,901 --> 00:10:56,197

So again, trying to read in

a separate situation here it is misguided.

225

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But also some scholars even, think that

226

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that taking away that's the negative part.

227

00:11:02,370 --> 00:11:04,997

We always think of the being

left as the bad part.

228

00:11:04,997 --> 00:11:05,414

Right.

229

00:11:06,666 --> 00:11:07,875

But in the verse right

230

00:11:07,875 --> 00:11:11,212

before, Jesus uses the example of,

231

00:11:12,380 --> 00:11:15,091

of the flood and he says, so

232

00:11:15,091 --> 00:11:18,552

his whole point is to be stay awake

and be faithful, right.

233

00:11:19,220 --> 00:11:20,846

And very similar.

234

00:11:20,846 --> 00:11:23,265

Similar idea is not the same wording, but

235

00:11:23,265 --> 00:11:26,268

it's very similar idea, where he says,

236

00:11:27,186 --> 00:11:29,522

you know, he says concerning that day

and hour, nobody knows.

237

00:11:29,522 --> 00:11:31,148

It's going to be like the days of Noah.

238

00:11:31,148 --> 00:11:34,610

And he says, as in those days,

people were just

239

00:11:35,027 --> 00:11:37,863

eating, drinking,

going about their normal life.

240

00:11:37,863 --> 00:11:41,867

And, and, they were unaware until

the flood came and swept them all away.

241

00:11:42,284 --> 00:11:43,744

So it will be the coming of

the Son of Man.

242

00:11:43,744 --> 00:11:44,662

Two will be left in one,

243

00:11:44,662 --> 00:11:46,997

two will be in one field,

one will be taken and the other left.

244

00:11:46,997 --> 00:11:52,461

So it by analogy from the previous verse,

the flood came and swept them all away.

245

00:11:52,962 --> 00:11:56,757

That lead some scholars

to think that the the ones taken away

246

00:11:56,841 --> 00:11:59,844

are the taking away

is the taking away for judgment.

247

00:12:00,177 --> 00:12:00,469

Right?

248

00:12:00,469 --> 00:12:02,847

Just like at the flood

when they were swept away.

249

00:12:02,847 --> 00:12:05,307

Well, okay,

I've never thought of it that way before.

250

00:12:05,307 --> 00:12:06,684

So we can't be sure. Right.

251

00:12:06,684 --> 00:12:09,979

But but whatever is the case,

whatever the case

252

00:12:09,979 --> 00:12:14,066

is, there's no details here

that support a separate rapture.

253

00:12:14,066 --> 00:12:17,903

This is Jesus is speaking of the time

when the Son of Man returns, right?

254

00:12:17,903 --> 00:12:20,030

The time of judgment and salvation.

255

00:12:20,030 --> 00:12:23,033

There's nothing there that implies that.

256

00:12:23,075 --> 00:12:27,663

And again, the emphasis, just like John

and Revelation is on staying in.

257

00:12:27,663 --> 00:12:29,874

Matthew is staying awake,

being ready. Right?

258

00:12:29,874 --> 00:12:31,584

Not in the sense of

259

00:12:31,584 --> 00:12:34,378

being ready by checking the newspapers,

but being faithful.

260

00:12:34,378 --> 00:12:36,088

Right. So there's no.

261

00:12:36,088 --> 00:12:36,338

Yeah.

262

00:12:36,338 --> 00:12:40,634

So the rapture as a distinct thing

that's before

263

00:12:40,634 --> 00:12:44,513

and separate

from Jesus return, Jesus final return.

264

00:12:47,057 --> 00:12:48,142

You know,

265

00:12:48,142 --> 00:12:52,104

it doesn't

seem to really have have good grounding.

266

00:12:52,104 --> 00:12:52,730

Right.

267

00:12:52,730 --> 00:12:56,567

But if we're talking saying the rapture

in the sense that whoever's alive

268

00:12:56,650 --> 00:13:00,613

when Jesus returns will we'll join him

immediately and meet him as he as

269

00:13:00,613 --> 00:13:01,489

he returns or whatever.

270

00:13:01,489 --> 00:13:04,366

Yes, all Christians believe that.

271

00:13:04,366 --> 00:13:04,700

Yeah.

272

00:13:04,700 --> 00:13:05,868

That, that that helps a lot

273

00:13:05,868 --> 00:13:07,495

to kind of peel back the layers

because it does

274

00:13:07,495 --> 00:13:09,705

feel like there's

a lot of fog around these things.

275

00:13:09,705 --> 00:13:10,915

And it's just like, I don't know.

276

00:13:10,915 --> 00:13:13,000

You know, it's just so easy to be like

I don't know what to think.

277

00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,503

Let's just not even we’re

not even gonna look into it.

278

00:13:15,503 --> 00:13:16,337

That's very helpful.

279

00:13:16,337 --> 00:13:19,799

So here's another comment that we got from

someone named Caleb.

280

00:13:20,299 --> 00:13:22,635

And he says this,

I fear the incursion of street level

281

00:13:22,635 --> 00:13:25,638

dispensationalism in conservative

Anabaptist circles.

282

00:13:26,555 --> 00:13:27,306

And they asked

283

00:13:27,306 --> 00:13:30,768

if you have any resources to point us

to warn fellow Anabaptists against it.

284

00:13:31,060 --> 00:13:33,521

And he says, maybe

you should write a book on the topic.

285

00:13:33,521 --> 00:13:35,481

So, yeah, I'd be curious

what you would think there,

286

00:13:35,481 --> 00:13:37,817

because we were just talking

about the dispensational framework

287

00:13:37,817 --> 00:13:40,820

and how that is just so infused

the conversation.

288

00:13:40,820 --> 00:13:43,697

It's kind of hard

to pull all the pieces apart anymore.

289

00:13:43,697 --> 00:13:45,366

So, yeah,

what would you have to say? Yeah.

290

00:13:45,366 --> 00:13:48,202

You know, I'm

going to be less inclined to have, like,

291

00:13:49,495 --> 00:13:50,079

specific

292

00:13:50,079 --> 00:13:53,082

resources that are like,

warning of the dangers of something

293

00:13:53,332 --> 00:13:56,335

like this and more things that are,

294

00:13:57,086 --> 00:14:00,714

I mean, I do think dispensationalism

has some features that are, that are,

295

00:14:01,799 --> 00:14:04,802

that are kind of not helpful and help

and maybe,

296

00:14:05,511 --> 00:14:09,682

push us to think of to miss some, some,

some of the good stuff in the Bible.

297

00:14:09,682 --> 00:14:14,061

But you know, that's, that's it's

not a first tier doctrine or anything.

298

00:14:14,645 --> 00:14:18,148

But I would be more inclined to, to say,

299

00:14:19,984 --> 00:14:22,528

there's some good resources out there

that, that present,

300

00:14:22,528 --> 00:14:26,365

I think better readings

and that really show how the to try

301

00:14:26,365 --> 00:14:28,701

to read the Bible better

according to its own categories

302

00:14:28,701 --> 00:14:31,704

and its own storyline

and genre and things and genres.

303

00:14:31,704 --> 00:14:34,707

And so, some examples,

304

00:14:35,875 --> 00:14:37,710

I've probably mentioned some of these

before

305

00:14:37,710 --> 00:14:40,921

in other podcasts

or whatever, but, I think,

306

00:14:42,506 --> 00:14:45,509

Steve Welham and Peter Gentry's,

307

00:14:45,676 --> 00:14:47,636

God's Kingdom through God's Covenants.

308

00:14:47,636 --> 00:14:51,265

It's a, there's, there's a big version

and small version, but God's kingdom

309

00:14:51,265 --> 00:14:54,268

through God's covenants is the shorter

I mean, it's 250 pages or whatever.

310

00:14:54,894 --> 00:14:58,022

But that's a really helpful starting place

for reading,

311

00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,483

putting the whole Bible together

in a way that is,

312

00:15:01,942 --> 00:15:04,945

I think, much better

than a dispensational framework.

313

00:15:05,195 --> 00:15:08,449

And they deal with in the intro,

they talk some about,

314

00:15:09,116 --> 00:15:11,994

about the sort of covenant theology,

315

00:15:11,994 --> 00:15:14,997

dispensationalism and then this, you know,

kind of meets way in the middle.

316

00:15:15,122 --> 00:15:18,792

I think that's a good place to start

for the history of dispensation ism.

317

00:15:19,293 --> 00:15:22,880

That book by Daniel Hummel,

The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism.

318

00:15:24,340 --> 00:15:25,132

What else?

319

00:15:25,132 --> 00:15:27,426

Those are a couple of good places

to start.

320

00:15:27,426 --> 00:15:30,054

but you're not necessarily saying,

oh, we need to be out here

321

00:15:30,054 --> 00:15:30,971

warning people of this.

322

00:15:30,971 --> 00:15:34,099

You know, it's not really

you're not approaching it like that.

323

00:15:35,184 --> 00:15:36,894

I'm not like,

324

00:15:36,894 --> 00:15:40,814

I think again, like,

there are so many people

325

00:15:40,814 --> 00:15:45,277

that we respect very highly,

in recent American church history

326

00:15:45,319 --> 00:15:48,322

have been dispensational

to some degree or another,

327

00:15:49,323 --> 00:15:49,615

good.

328

00:15:49,615 --> 00:15:52,076

You know, thank, Praise God.

329

00:15:52,076 --> 00:15:55,079

So it's not it's not some,

330

00:15:55,579 --> 00:15:57,957

it's not evil or whatever, but I do think

331

00:15:57,957 --> 00:16:01,168

it produces some, some problems

and things that I do think

332

00:16:01,168 --> 00:16:04,797

are actually significant

and should be, and should be avoided.

333

00:16:05,130 --> 00:16:07,883

Another book that deals with,

334

00:16:07,883 --> 00:16:09,927

there's one one more book that deals with,

335

00:16:09,927 --> 00:16:12,930

specific topics from a perspective

336

00:16:13,555 --> 00:16:16,225

non dispensational,

but also non covenant theology,

337

00:16:16,225 --> 00:16:19,228

which is kind of the other side

of that spectrum.

338

00:16:19,353 --> 00:16:22,272

Perspective

is called progressive covenantal ism.

339

00:16:22,272 --> 00:16:23,607

And it has a chapter.

340

00:16:23,607 --> 00:16:27,361

It's edited by Steve

Welham and Brent Parker, I think,

341

00:16:28,362 --> 00:16:29,196

and it has chapters

342

00:16:29,196 --> 00:16:32,992

on different topics

that so like the Sabbath and, Israel

343

00:16:32,992 --> 00:16:37,329

and the church, the land promise different

things like that that are treated from,

344

00:16:38,372 --> 00:16:40,749

from the, from,

you know, non dispensation perspective,

345

00:16:40,749 --> 00:16:43,669

but also a non covenant theology

perspective. The oh one more book.

346

00:16:43,669 --> 00:16:47,548

I keep saying one more, it's

called From Continuity to discontinuity.

347

00:16:47,756 --> 00:16:48,882

I can't remember off the top of my head

348

00:16:48,882 --> 00:16:52,011

the author, but maybe Ben

Merkel is one of them.

349

00:16:52,177 --> 00:16:55,180

But from continuity discontinuity,

it just lays out,

350

00:16:55,389 --> 00:16:58,434

the spectrum of of ways

of reading the Bible

351

00:16:58,434 --> 00:17:01,854

from dispensational on the one hand,

to covenant on the other hand.

352

00:17:01,937 --> 00:17:04,231

So it's just kind of

more of a survey type of thing.

353

00:17:04,231 --> 00:17:07,776

I think that would be a huge help

for untangling this.

354

00:17:07,776 --> 00:17:10,654

If you can kind of see, okay, here's

some different options, like here's

355

00:17:10,654 --> 00:17:13,824

the different frameworks actually

explained pretty clearly because otherwise

356

00:17:14,533 --> 00:17:18,162

whatever it is, whatever position

you have, it just kind of actually infuses

357

00:17:18,162 --> 00:17:20,581

and you may not even know

you have that position. Yeah.

358

00:17:20,581 --> 00:17:24,918

And some of like that book and also the

history book, we mentioned, I mentioned,

359

00:17:26,420 --> 00:17:27,379

are helpful.

360

00:17:27,379 --> 00:17:31,508

It's helpful to know some of the history

of dispensationalism because it reminds us

361

00:17:32,259 --> 00:17:35,679

it feels like

it's for most evangelical Americans

362

00:17:35,846 --> 00:17:38,515

when I and I include our people in that.

363

00:17:38,515 --> 00:17:40,684

Dispensationalism is just the air

we breathe.

364

00:17:40,684 --> 00:17:41,935

We've grown up breathing,

365

00:17:41,935 --> 00:17:44,897

not not full fledged,

but some of that, some of the ideas.

366

00:17:44,897 --> 00:17:48,650

And we don't realize that it's

actually a very novel set of ideas.

367

00:17:48,650 --> 00:17:49,485

Right? It does not.

368

00:17:49,485 --> 00:17:53,030

It did not exist in the church

before, sort of the 1800s.

369

00:17:53,572 --> 00:17:55,407

And it's it really dominated America.

370

00:17:55,407 --> 00:17:58,494

So just recognizing having a broader

perspective and say, hey, at least

371

00:17:58,827 --> 00:18:01,580

it's not a it's

not the only take on things.

372

00:18:01,580 --> 00:18:03,123

And historically

it's been a minority take.

373

00:18:03,123 --> 00:18:04,374

So, you know, that

374

00:18:04,374 --> 00:18:06,877

that's some really helpful context

because I know when I read that book

375

00:18:06,877 --> 00:18:08,420

it's like, oh, that's really interesting

376

00:18:08,420 --> 00:18:11,507

because yeah, historically speaking,

this is relatively new.

377

00:18:11,507 --> 00:18:15,719

I mean, this and it's fairly

tied to you, North America, Yeah.

378

00:18:15,719 --> 00:18:17,096

That that makes sense.

379

00:18:17,096 --> 00:18:17,429

Okay.

380

00:18:17,429 --> 00:18:20,432

So another big one back

to some of these frameworks.

381

00:18:20,557 --> 00:18:22,142

So we talked about the rapture.

382

00:18:22,142 --> 00:18:23,936

Well then what is the tribulation.

383

00:18:23,936 --> 00:18:26,647

That was another question we got.

Well like what is this then.

384

00:18:26,647 --> 00:18:27,564

And do we have to be worried

385

00:18:27,564 --> 00:18:31,443

about seven years of horrendous evil

that's about to hit at any moment,

386

00:18:31,735 --> 00:18:34,738

which is the typical,

you know, way of saying it.

387

00:18:35,030 --> 00:18:37,407

Again, some people saying, oh, well,

the rapture will be before that.

388

00:18:37,407 --> 00:18:38,867

So we don’t have to worry about it.

389

00:18:38,867 --> 00:18:40,327

But I also have friends who say,

oh no, the rapture

390

00:18:40,327 --> 00:18:41,995

will be after the tribulation,

so buckle up.

391

00:18:41,995 --> 00:18:43,330

We're going to have this horrid

392

00:18:43,330 --> 00:18:46,500

period that Revelation lays out

all these terrible things that happen.

393

00:18:47,126 --> 00:18:49,253

What's the tribulation? Yeah.

394

00:18:49,253 --> 00:18:53,382

And this goes back to this is complicated

because this goes back to,

395

00:18:54,925 --> 00:18:56,844

Revelation, but also Matthew 24.

396

00:18:56,844 --> 00:18:58,220

And I think the rest of the New Testament.

397

00:18:58,220 --> 00:19:00,556

But Matthew 24 Is debated.

398

00:19:00,556 --> 00:19:01,890

There's different readings of it.

399

00:19:01,890 --> 00:19:05,686

There's preterist readings

which see, like pretty much all of it

400

00:19:05,686 --> 00:19:08,689

as referring to, ad 70,

401

00:19:10,023 --> 00:19:11,233

so I don't go there.

402

00:19:11,233 --> 00:19:12,609

So you’re saying this section in Matthew,

403

00:19:12,609 --> 00:19:15,737

this is the prophecy that Jesus

is giving about all these things

404

00:19:15,737 --> 00:19:18,740

that are going to happen, and some people

saying, oh, this, this happens

405

00:19:18,949 --> 00:19:22,703

within the lifetime of the apostles,

like the destruction of the temple.

406

00:19:22,703 --> 00:19:24,204

And, and so forth.

407

00:19:24,204 --> 00:19:26,999

So really, I'll try to be really quick

here.

408

00:19:26,999 --> 00:19:30,169

But, what prompts

this is, is the disciples

409

00:19:30,169 --> 00:19:33,797

ask one what will be the signs

of your coming of the end of the age?

410

00:19:33,797 --> 00:19:38,260

And he says, Jesus says

there's going to be wars, rumors of wars.

411

00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,930

People are going to false messiahs

are going to come and lead many astray.

412

00:19:42,055 --> 00:19:43,682

Which is interesting, right?

413

00:19:43,682 --> 00:19:46,476

Many will come in my name saying

I am the Messiah.

414

00:19:46,476 --> 00:19:47,269

Like, who are those?

415

00:19:47,269 --> 00:19:50,439

You know they're anti,

they're non messiah people, right?

416

00:19:51,315 --> 00:19:52,733

And they lead people astray.

417

00:19:52,733 --> 00:19:54,985

There'll be wars but don't be alarmed.

418

00:19:54,985 --> 00:19:55,986

The end is not yet

419

00:19:55,986 --> 00:19:59,156

nation will rise up against nation,

Kingdom against kingdom will be famines,

420

00:19:59,156 --> 00:20:00,449

earthquakes, etc.

421

00:20:00,449 --> 00:20:02,492

these are just the beginning of the birth

pains, right?

422

00:20:02,492 --> 00:20:04,828

This this is tribulation language.

423

00:20:04,828 --> 00:20:06,205

They say it's just the beginning.

424

00:20:06,205 --> 00:20:08,874

They'll deliver you up to tribulation.

You'll be put to death.

425

00:20:08,874 --> 00:20:11,835

You'll be hated by all nations

for my name's sake,

426

00:20:11,835 --> 00:20:14,755

the one who endures to

the end will be saved.

427

00:20:14,755 --> 00:20:15,631

And then.

428

00:20:15,631 --> 00:20:19,635

So this seems to be something

of an overview of the type of tribulation

429

00:20:19,635 --> 00:20:22,638

that Jesus own disciples

are to are going to experience,

430

00:20:22,888 --> 00:20:24,723

but also what's going to happen.

431

00:20:24,723 --> 00:20:28,852

This is the, you know, from the beginning

of the birth pains to the last push.

432

00:20:28,852 --> 00:20:29,937

If we want to say right,

433

00:20:31,104 --> 00:20:31,521

and then

434

00:20:31,521 --> 00:20:35,317

he zeroes in on the, what he speaks of

435

00:20:35,317 --> 00:20:38,612

as the abomination of desolation,

which is drawing on Daniel's vision.

436

00:20:38,946 --> 00:20:41,949

Yeah. Which kind of some of that probably.

437

00:20:42,115 --> 00:20:47,246

Had at least one initial fulfillment

in, Antiochus Epiphanies.

438

00:20:47,246 --> 00:20:50,791

That nasty king who desecrated the temple

and turned it into,

439

00:20:52,668 --> 00:20:55,671

banned Judaism and stuff in the,

in the second century BC.

440

00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,383

But that itself is sort of a prefiguration

441

00:20:59,383 --> 00:21:02,761

of the destruction of the temple in ad 70.

442

00:21:02,761 --> 00:21:04,388

Those come after Jesus.

443

00:21:04,388 --> 00:21:07,808

And so Jesus,

Jesus speaks of the immediate

444

00:21:08,058 --> 00:21:11,061

destruction of Jerusalem that's coming.

445

00:21:11,353 --> 00:21:14,356

And he says, you know, flee, etc..

446

00:21:14,898 --> 00:21:18,110

But then he,

he seems to sort of be merging that

447

00:21:19,152 --> 00:21:23,907

he seems to be treating that almost

as the beginning of the big tribulation.

448

00:21:23,907 --> 00:21:24,574

Right?

449

00:21:24,574 --> 00:21:27,411

When you see

the abomination of desolation,

450

00:21:27,411 --> 00:21:30,497

then let those who are in Judea

flee to the mountains, get out, right?

451

00:21:31,290 --> 00:21:34,418

And then there will be great tribulation,

such as has not been

452

00:21:34,418 --> 00:21:36,712

from the beginning of the world

until now, and never will be in.

453

00:21:36,712 --> 00:21:39,715

If those days hadn't been shortened,

no human being will be saved.

454

00:21:39,881 --> 00:21:42,801

But and then all sorts of false messiahs

and false

455

00:21:42,801 --> 00:21:46,847

prophets will arise and perform great

signs and wonders, so as to lead astray,

456

00:21:46,847 --> 00:21:50,309

if possible, the elect all of this stuff

which doesn't seem to be just

457

00:21:51,643 --> 00:21:54,313

ad 70 but it seems to start there, right?

458

00:21:54,313 --> 00:21:55,939

It's just. Yeah, right.

459

00:21:55,939 --> 00:21:59,651

And then he says, if people say, look,

Jesus is back in the wilderness,

460

00:21:59,651 --> 00:22:02,738

don't go there

because you'll know when he's back, right?

461

00:22:03,405 --> 00:22:06,491

And then he says,

after the tribulation of those days,

462

00:22:06,491 --> 00:22:10,329

and those days seems to be this,

this whole era from

463

00:22:10,329 --> 00:22:14,416

like the beginning of birth pangs

to all the way to,

464

00:22:16,460 --> 00:22:17,836

you know,

465

00:22:17,836 --> 00:22:18,795

right before the return.

466

00:22:18,795 --> 00:22:21,465

And then he says,

the moon will be darkened,

467

00:22:21,465 --> 00:22:24,551

the stars will fall from heaven

and then will appear the Son of Man,

468

00:22:25,260 --> 00:22:27,679

coming in the clouds.

469

00:22:27,679 --> 00:22:30,265

And it seems that what my underst.

470

00:22:30,265 --> 00:22:31,099

My take.

471

00:22:31,099 --> 00:22:34,519

Is that what he's doing here

and and if you want to,

472

00:22:35,354 --> 00:22:39,691

read others on this, Craig Keener

and his Matthew commentary.

473

00:22:39,691 --> 00:22:42,152

Osborne, as well. And his commentary.

474

00:22:42,152 --> 00:22:43,862

Matthew, there's plenty of good takes, but

475

00:22:43,862 --> 00:22:47,240

is that what's happening

is he's Jesus is taking,

476

00:22:48,742 --> 00:22:51,745

the destruction of of the temple

and Jerusalem.

477

00:22:52,162 --> 00:22:55,248

That's going to happen 40 years

after Jesus is saying these things

478

00:22:55,874 --> 00:22:59,044

is, in a sense,

the beginning of this era of judgment

479

00:22:59,044 --> 00:23:02,798

that will culminate in the final

this era of tribulation will culminate

480

00:23:02,798 --> 00:23:03,965

in the final judgment.

481

00:23:03,965 --> 00:23:08,387

So in, New Testament studies,

we talk about inaugurated eschatology.

482

00:23:08,762 --> 00:23:12,682

You know, the already

not yet the idea that the that,

483

00:23:13,850 --> 00:23:16,853

the era of salvation is both here

but not fully here.

484

00:23:17,187 --> 00:23:20,190

So like Jesus rose from the dead, but

485

00:23:20,190 --> 00:23:23,318

the rest of us haven't risen

from the dead yet, or like, we've

486

00:23:23,318 --> 00:23:27,989

we've had the spirit, but the spirit is

the first fruits of the full inheritance.

487

00:23:27,989 --> 00:23:30,242

Right. So we have it, but not yet.

488

00:23:30,242 --> 00:23:33,286

And I think that the flip side

of that inaugurated eschatology

489

00:23:33,286 --> 00:23:36,957

is judgment, the judgment side

that the destruction of Jerusalem,

490

00:23:36,998 --> 00:23:39,960

just like Jesus resurrection

from the dead,

491

00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,921

was the first installment,

the first part of new creation,

492

00:23:43,171 --> 00:23:46,758

the destruction of the temple was sort of

symbolically the first part

493

00:23:46,758 --> 00:23:50,887

of this judgment that will culminate

in final judgment, final destruction.

494

00:23:51,304 --> 00:23:54,307

And that's why it makes so much sense

for Jesus to use it.

495

00:23:54,766 --> 00:23:58,770

As to why we start,

it sounds like he's mixing up

496

00:23:59,938 --> 00:24:03,442

the the judgments, the the tribulations

that will that

497

00:24:03,442 --> 00:24:06,778

he seems to think all of his followers

will from his immediate disciples.

498

00:24:07,112 --> 00:24:09,573

And it seems to drag on for a while

because he says,

499

00:24:09,573 --> 00:24:12,576

I don't know when I'm coming back,

and there'll be all sorts of false

500

00:24:12,576 --> 00:24:15,579

people arising and,

you know, all that kind of thing.

501

00:24:16,288 --> 00:24:19,583

But in a sense,

the destruction of, of Jerusalem

502

00:24:19,583 --> 00:24:22,586

kind of seems to mark

symbolically the beginning of the end

503

00:24:23,003 --> 00:24:26,131

in that way, just like Jesus resurrection

marks the beginning of the beginning.

504

00:24:26,131 --> 00:24:27,507

Right?

505

00:24:27,507 --> 00:24:29,092

I've never thought of that before.

506

00:24:29,092 --> 00:24:30,385

That's that's really interesting.

507

00:24:30,385 --> 00:24:33,472

So you're you're not saying, oh,

the tribulation is going to be this, this

508

00:24:33,472 --> 00:24:34,431

chunk of time

509

00:24:34,431 --> 00:24:38,351

when this is going to happen, it's

you're not I don't know what the word is.

510

00:24:38,351 --> 00:24:40,061

Boxing it in quite like that.

511

00:24:40,061 --> 00:24:43,482

Again, classical style of reading

this stuff is like, oh, it's this block,

512

00:24:43,690 --> 00:24:44,816

this specific thing.

513

00:24:44,816 --> 00:24:45,609

It's all broke down.

514

00:24:45,609 --> 00:24:48,570

They have all these formulas,

all this stuff figured out exactly how.

515

00:24:48,570 --> 00:24:50,447

Boom. that's not what we're going for.

516

00:24:50,447 --> 00:24:54,701

That I think that Jesus here

is speaking of this whole era, right?

517

00:24:54,993 --> 00:25:00,540

That the whole time, as the disciples

wait for Jesus return,

518

00:25:01,750 --> 00:25:05,587

we see,

like there are signs that the end is

519

00:25:05,879 --> 00:25:08,965

is upon us in all the tribulation

in the world, but we still don't.

520

00:25:08,965 --> 00:25:12,302

We can't use any of those signs to to know

the moment Jesus going to come back.

521

00:25:12,302 --> 00:25:12,719

Right?

522

00:25:12,719 --> 00:25:15,722

I mean, he says that, See, that's

I think that's the one

523

00:25:16,348 --> 00:25:19,559

point there because there's a

you mentioned this in the other episode

524

00:25:19,559 --> 00:25:21,853

was basically the style of you

like, read Revelation

525

00:25:21,853 --> 00:25:24,272

and then read the headlines

and then try to put the two together.

526

00:25:24,272 --> 00:25:27,108

You know, it's like,

that's not what we're going for here.

527

00:25:27,108 --> 00:25:30,779

Because the point is not to figure out

when exactly the end is because he says

528

00:25:30,904 --> 00:25:32,531

concerning the day of the hour,

and no one knows.

529

00:25:32,531 --> 00:25:36,493

But the point is, as he says,

to stay awake and be ready.

530

00:25:37,202 --> 00:25:37,911

Right.

531

00:25:37,911 --> 00:25:40,622

And so all the tribulation

is supposed to be a reminder.

532

00:25:40,622 --> 00:25:41,248

Yeah.

533

00:25:41,248 --> 00:25:43,375

You know,

we're living in this era of judgment,

534

00:25:43,375 --> 00:25:46,920

and that era could end and God

could cut short those days at any moment.

535

00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:47,921

Right.

536

00:25:47,921 --> 00:25:50,966

And I think that, fits very much

with the rest.

537

00:25:50,966 --> 00:25:53,635

What the New Testament says, what the rest

of the Testament says about tribulation.

538

00:25:53,635 --> 00:25:56,805

So John 16, in the world

you will have tribulation.

539

00:25:56,972 --> 00:25:57,597

But take heart.

540

00:25:57,597 --> 00:25:58,348

I have overcome the world.

541

00:25:58,348 --> 00:26:00,809

Peter sees his in first Peter.

542

00:26:00,809 --> 00:26:05,021

It's all about expecting his readers

to be living through an era of suffering

543

00:26:05,021 --> 00:26:06,523

that's followed by glory.

544

00:26:06,523 --> 00:26:08,984

First Thessalonians one.

545

00:26:08,984 --> 00:26:12,153

It is evidence of the righteous judgment

of God that you may be considered

546

00:26:12,153 --> 00:26:16,032

worthy of the kingdom of God for which

you are suffering, since God considers it

547

00:26:16,032 --> 00:26:18,785

just to repay with affliction

those who afflict you,

548

00:26:18,785 --> 00:26:21,413

and to grant relief to you

who are afflicted, as well as to us.

549

00:26:21,413 --> 00:26:24,291

When the Lord Jesus is revealed

from heaven with his mighty angels,

550

00:26:24,291 --> 00:26:26,626

this is the whole

New Testament is all about,

551

00:26:28,044 --> 00:26:28,336

we're

552

00:26:28,336 --> 00:26:31,506

living is expecting that

we live in a time of marked by tribulation

553

00:26:31,506 --> 00:26:35,927

and in a sense of the beginnings of the

the birth pains of God's judgment.

554

00:26:36,428 --> 00:26:39,472

Revelation uses

the word tribulation throughout.

555

00:26:40,265 --> 00:26:42,559

In, in many, in many cases to speak

556

00:26:42,559 --> 00:26:45,854

of what his readers, what Christians

throughout the ages are going through.

557

00:26:45,854 --> 00:26:46,521

Right?

558

00:26:46,521 --> 00:26:49,983

I know your tribulation, your poverty,

he says in one of the letters

559

00:26:50,942 --> 00:26:54,070

in Revelation seven, speaking of,

I think all of the God's,

560

00:26:54,529 --> 00:26:57,532

the martyrs were God's people

throughout the ages.

561

00:26:57,824 --> 00:27:00,827

These are the ones who,

coming out of great tribulation.

562

00:27:01,244 --> 00:27:04,289

then then the question is well,

but what about those three and a half year

563

00:27:04,289 --> 00:27:07,292

numbers? Right. That, that, that. Yeah.

564

00:27:07,542 --> 00:27:08,501

what's going on there.

565

00:27:08,501 --> 00:27:11,671

So John uses this in chapter

566

00:27:11,796 --> 00:27:15,300

11 and 12 of Revelation and maybe 13.

567

00:27:16,468 --> 00:27:19,304

These numbers come up four times.

568

00:27:19,304 --> 00:27:21,514

Sometimes it says 1260 days.

569

00:27:21,514 --> 00:27:23,266

Sometimes it's time, time and a half time.

570

00:27:23,266 --> 00:27:26,353

And then one time it's that time,

and another time it's 42 months.

571

00:27:26,353 --> 00:27:29,189

The two other times is 42 months,

something like that.

572

00:27:29,189 --> 00:27:31,941

And, but it's refers

to the same period of time.

573

00:27:31,941 --> 00:27:35,612

And what he's doing there is symbolically,

it's kind of,

574

00:27:35,945 --> 00:27:38,948

to me, fairly clear

because of the way he uses it,

575

00:27:40,241 --> 00:27:44,454

in chapter 12 to speak of the entire time

when this woman is being,

576

00:27:44,746 --> 00:27:48,625

kept by God in the wilderness,

but also chased down by the by the dragon.

577

00:27:49,334 --> 00:27:50,085

Right.

578

00:27:50,085 --> 00:27:52,671

Or the whole time that those two witnesses

579

00:27:52,671 --> 00:27:55,674

representing

the church are bearing witness,

580

00:27:57,008 --> 00:27:59,969

and and being opposed in chapter 11,

581

00:28:01,179 --> 00:28:04,140

he's drawing that from one of Daniel's

visions

582

00:28:04,140 --> 00:28:08,520

where the vision of

the weeks, where Daniel sees,

583

00:28:10,563 --> 00:28:11,648

sees this, this figure

584

00:28:11,648 --> 00:28:15,276

that will sort of cause great disturbance,

to God's people

585

00:28:15,402 --> 00:28:18,863

in the half of this

prophetic week of years or whatever.

586

00:28:19,155 --> 00:28:20,699

Right? Yeah.

587

00:28:20,699 --> 00:28:23,702

And, or from Daniel 725,

588

00:28:24,786 --> 00:28:26,955

this specifically mentions that

589

00:28:26,955 --> 00:28:29,958

and I think this is particularly relevant.

590

00:28:30,375 --> 00:28:30,959

Yeah.

591

00:28:30,959 --> 00:28:33,336

As for the ten horns,

so this is the beast, the fourth beast,

592

00:28:33,336 --> 00:28:37,298

which is kind of the pattern that John

uses for his beast in Revelation.

593

00:28:38,049 --> 00:28:40,844

He has ten horns out of his kingdom

ten kings shall arise,

594

00:28:40,844 --> 00:28:42,262

another shall arise after them.

595

00:28:42,262 --> 00:28:45,265

He shall be different

from the former ones.

596

00:28:46,516 --> 00:28:48,393

He shall speak words

against the most High.

597

00:28:48,393 --> 00:28:50,145

He will wear out the saints

of the Most High,

598

00:28:50,145 --> 00:28:52,063

and shall think

to change the time and the laws,

599

00:28:52,063 --> 00:28:55,442

and they shall be given into his hand

for a time, times, and half a time.

600

00:28:55,442 --> 00:28:58,445

But so that's the three

and a half symbolic years.

601

00:28:58,695 --> 00:29:02,907

But the court shall sit in judgment, and

his dominion be taken away and given to,

602

00:29:03,867 --> 00:29:05,827

the people of the saints of the Most High.

603

00:29:05,827 --> 00:29:08,455

And I think what John is doing

is he's taking that three

604

00:29:08,455 --> 00:29:11,583

and a half year kind of like fourscore,

you know, fourscore.

605

00:29:11,583 --> 00:29:14,252

And however many years at the beginning

of the Gettysburg Address.

606

00:29:14,252 --> 00:29:16,504

Right. It's this symbolic number.

607

00:29:16,504 --> 00:29:20,008

I mean, Lincoln obviously was referring

to a specific number of years,

608

00:29:20,008 --> 00:29:23,636

but the way we say it, like fourscore

and something, if I say it that way,

609

00:29:23,970 --> 00:29:26,973

I'm evoking a whole history of the Civil

War and blah, blah, blah.

610

00:29:27,182 --> 00:29:29,934

I think John's doing something similar

that three and a half years

611

00:29:29,934 --> 00:29:31,144

in Daniel represents.

612

00:29:31,144 --> 00:29:34,522

This time I don't

I think a symbolic time is half of seven.

613

00:29:35,106 --> 00:29:38,109

It's a limited time, but it's a time,

614

00:29:38,193 --> 00:29:42,489

of suffering and

tribulation where the beast,

615

00:29:44,491 --> 00:29:45,200

rules.

616

00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,494

You know, he's given some dominion.

617

00:29:47,494 --> 00:29:49,078

But it will end when.

618

00:29:49,078 --> 00:29:52,624

When the kingdom is fully in the hands

of, of the saints.

619

00:29:52,624 --> 00:29:53,625

Right.

620

00:29:53,625 --> 00:29:59,047

And so John takes that three

and a half years and plops it into cases

621

00:29:59,047 --> 00:30:03,760

where it seems to me fairly clear

that he's talking about this whole era.

622

00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:04,093

Right.

623

00:30:04,093 --> 00:30:07,305

So the woman who's she gives the,

624

00:30:08,348 --> 00:30:11,351

birth to the male child,

625

00:30:12,936 --> 00:30:13,478

the woman,

626

00:30:13,478 --> 00:30:16,481

this is like a super cool story,

but we can't talk about it.

627

00:30:16,564 --> 00:30:19,400

But she so she gives,

628

00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,028

she gives birth,

and then she flees into the wilderness

629

00:30:22,028 --> 00:30:25,031

where she has a place

prepared by God for 1260 days.

630

00:30:25,156 --> 00:30:28,159

Then Michael and his angels fight

against the dragon, and they come down.

631

00:30:28,701 --> 00:30:31,746

And then they try to persecute the woman.

632

00:30:31,996 --> 00:30:35,542

And then the dragon becomes furious

with the woman, goes off to make war on

633

00:30:35,542 --> 00:30:36,626

the rest of her offspring.

634

00:30:38,294 --> 00:30:40,547

And we have the 1260 again.

635

00:30:40,547 --> 00:30:44,259

It seems like this whole time

where the dragon's furious is.

636

00:30:44,259 --> 00:30:48,137

Is this 1260 or times, times

and a half the time it says here.

637

00:30:48,388 --> 00:30:49,472

Period. Okay.

638

00:30:49,472 --> 00:30:52,433

That's so that language of three

and a half years of tribulation.

639

00:30:52,433 --> 00:30:55,395

I think it's seems to be

is drawing off of Daniel,

640

00:30:55,395 --> 00:30:58,398

because that's a number that represents

this finite period of time

641

00:30:58,731 --> 00:31:01,776

where that's marked by oppression

and tribulation.

642

00:31:02,193 --> 00:31:05,321

And John seems to be employing that

symbolically to refer to this whole age,

643

00:31:05,321 --> 00:31:07,448

the same age

Jesus is talking about in Matthew,

644

00:31:07,448 --> 00:31:10,451

where he speaks of this whole era of time

while we

645

00:31:11,035 --> 00:31:14,664

from the destruction of Jerusalem,

so to speak, to Jesus, return.

646

00:31:14,664 --> 00:31:16,916

That's marked by tribulation.

647

00:31:16,916 --> 00:31:21,170

But Jesus promised to keep us, to keep

his people, you know, until his return.

648

00:31:21,254 --> 00:31:24,048

so really,

some people say this is symbolic

649

00:31:24,048 --> 00:31:26,885

of a seven years of tribulation,

blah, blah, blah.

650

00:31:26,885 --> 00:31:28,928

You're saying

no, this is symbolic of something else.

651

00:31:28,928 --> 00:31:29,971

Essentially. Yeah.

652

00:31:29,971 --> 00:31:31,472

I think it's symbolic of the whole era

653

00:31:31,472 --> 00:31:34,642

that we're that we're this whole

era is marked both by salvation

654

00:31:34,642 --> 00:31:37,687

for us and also by tribulation for us

and for the world.

655

00:31:37,812 --> 00:31:40,732

Yeah, I think that's that's how

I that's how I understand it.

656

00:31:40,732 --> 00:31:43,067

That's that's really interesting

because I, because.

657

00:31:43,067 --> 00:31:44,736

Yeah, you had to

658

00:31:44,736 --> 00:31:46,779

you can go down some interesting streets

if you're like,

659

00:31:46,779 --> 00:31:50,033

well there's this there's a set time

in the future where tribulation

660

00:31:50,033 --> 00:31:53,202

is coming and all this you can start

I don't know you

661

00:31:53,411 --> 00:31:56,539

you can get down some interesting paths

with that really, really quickly.

662

00:31:56,539 --> 00:31:58,041

And I don't know.

663

00:31:58,041 --> 00:32:00,126

Yeah. I'm,

I often kind of wondered about that.

664

00:32:00,126 --> 00:32:02,754

You can you can go down

fearmongering really quickly as well.

665

00:32:02,754 --> 00:32:04,881

And maybe not you know, but okay.

666

00:32:04,881 --> 00:32:06,007

So that's really interesting.

667

00:32:06,007 --> 00:32:09,177

And again this, this then corresponds

pretty well with what we read

668

00:32:09,177 --> 00:32:10,637

the whole rest of the New Testament.

Right.

669

00:32:10,637 --> 00:32:14,849

It's expectation of God's judgment

that comes throughout this,

670

00:32:14,849 --> 00:32:17,352

these last, these last days.

If we want to call this whole era,

671

00:32:18,311 --> 00:32:20,813

the expectation that believers suffer,

672

00:32:20,813 --> 00:32:23,733

you know, it's what we read

the whole rest of the New Testament.

673

00:32:23,733 --> 00:32:27,779

So and it's what most many Christians

throughout history have experienced.

674

00:32:29,155 --> 00:32:29,739

that that's a,

675

00:32:29,739 --> 00:32:31,616

that is a really good point It’s

easier for us to say, well,

676

00:32:31,616 --> 00:32:33,785

maybe there's going to be seven

bad years in the future.

677

00:32:33,785 --> 00:32:37,705

But for believers and persecuted believers

in the Middle East or Asia or whatever,

678

00:32:38,206 --> 00:32:39,624

that makes less sense, right?

679

00:32:39,624 --> 00:32:41,501

It makes a lot more sense to say,

680

00:32:41,501 --> 00:32:44,504

yeah, this is the time that this is a time

marked by tribulation.

681

00:32:45,296 --> 00:32:46,381

You know, that that does it.

682

00:32:46,381 --> 00:32:51,761

And it also takes Revelation instead of

being something out there somewhere.

683

00:32:51,761 --> 00:32:56,307

And that brings it down to us and makes it

immediately relevant to us again.

684

00:32:56,307 --> 00:32:57,266

Yeah. Yeah.

685

00:32:57,266 --> 00:32:59,102

tells the people, yeah, that makes sense.

686

00:32:59,102 --> 00:33:00,228

So another one,

687

00:33:01,437 --> 00:33:05,024

that obviously came up

when we're doing rapture or tribulation.

688

00:33:05,149 --> 00:33:06,275

What's the millennium.

689

00:33:06,275 --> 00:33:06,567

Yeah.

690

00:33:06,567 --> 00:33:09,821

So this we can be quick on I think

hopefully I say that but then I'm not.

691

00:33:09,988 --> 00:33:14,075

So the millennium refers

to how you understand Revelation

692

00:33:14,075 --> 00:33:18,246

chapter 20, which speaks of Satan

being bound for a thousand years.

693

00:33:18,246 --> 00:33:19,998

Yeah. What what's that all about?

694

00:33:19,998 --> 00:33:20,999

There's only comes from there.

695

00:33:20,999 --> 00:33:24,502

And then after the thousand years,

he seems to be released from his cage

696

00:33:24,919 --> 00:33:28,256

and he wreaks some final havoc

and then is destroyed.

697

00:33:28,756 --> 00:33:30,466

Right.

698

00:33:30,466 --> 00:33:33,720

and this issue, you know,

I want to stress that you can,

699

00:33:33,928 --> 00:33:36,389

you can hold to any of the,

any of the, the,

700

00:33:36,389 --> 00:33:38,891

the common views on the millennium

and still read Revelation well.

701

00:33:38,891 --> 00:33:42,061

You know,

this is not a, it's not a big deal

702

00:33:42,061 --> 00:33:45,690

in history, in recent American history,

it has been a big deal.

703

00:33:45,690 --> 00:33:45,982

Right.

704

00:33:45,982 --> 00:33:46,858

Your view on the millennium

705

00:33:46,858 --> 00:33:50,236

has been a litmus test of orthodoxy

in some places, unfortunately.

706

00:33:51,362 --> 00:33:54,407

But yeah, you can read Revelation

well and hold two different views.

707

00:33:54,407 --> 00:33:57,452

So the three main views, have been that,

708

00:33:58,411 --> 00:33:59,287

first, that,

709

00:33:59,287 --> 00:34:01,539

that this period of time

is a literal period of time,

710

00:34:01,539 --> 00:34:04,876

whether it's exactly a thousand years or

it stands for a different period of time,

711

00:34:04,876 --> 00:34:08,713

whatever, but

it's a specific period of time that comes.

712

00:34:09,297 --> 00:34:13,801

So pre millennial

ism means that Jesus returns first

713

00:34:14,218 --> 00:34:17,305

and then he and then there's

this thousand year reign of

714

00:34:18,723 --> 00:34:21,184

prosperity with him ruling on,

715

00:34:21,184 --> 00:34:24,187

on this earth before the final judgment

and the new heavens in New Earth.

716

00:34:24,437 --> 00:34:27,523

So Jesus is ruling on the current

sort of unrestored earth.

717

00:34:28,524 --> 00:34:31,527

And then at the end of that,

Satan comes back out,

718

00:34:31,569 --> 00:34:35,782

and then he's finally everything's

finally destroyed and, and, and renewed.

719

00:34:36,324 --> 00:34:38,743

So that's pre millennialism.

720

00:34:38,743 --> 00:34:43,164

There have been some people

who've held that throughout church.

721

00:34:43,164 --> 00:34:46,918

Well, especially in the early church, there were people who held a version of that.

722

00:34:48,044 --> 00:34:51,047

But it's not been the dominant view

in church history.

723

00:34:51,380 --> 00:34:53,674

Then dispensationalism came along

724

00:34:53,674 --> 00:34:56,469

with its own version of this.

725

00:34:56,469 --> 00:34:57,678

That's when the rapture.

726

00:34:57,678 --> 00:35:01,557

The rapture, you know, all gets tied into

and the literal tribulation,

727

00:35:01,557 --> 00:35:03,643

all that kind of stuff

gets tied into this,

728

00:35:03,643 --> 00:35:06,646

and that then became the dominant view

in the United States.

729

00:35:06,813 --> 00:35:09,190

So that's, that's that

730

00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:12,777

post millennial ism,

is like a really interesting one.

731

00:35:12,777 --> 00:35:15,780

I still think you, you have to be

have a certain,

732

00:35:16,531 --> 00:35:19,617

I don't know, temperament,

very optimistic temperament.

733

00:35:19,867 --> 00:35:22,120

But this it was a big thing

back in the day.

734

00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:23,538

Yeah. really interesting.

735

00:35:23,538 --> 00:35:28,084

So post millennial ism is the idea

that, again, there's the thousand years.

736

00:35:28,084 --> 00:35:30,962

It's not a literal thousand years,

but it represents this period of time

737

00:35:30,962 --> 00:35:35,133

where the current Earth will basically

the gospel will have triumphed.

738

00:35:35,424 --> 00:35:39,512

And, you know, people,

the Earth, as we, you know,

739

00:35:39,512 --> 00:35:43,641

the current society

will have become largely Christianized

740

00:35:43,975 --> 00:35:48,104

and will be,

you know, basically Christian, you know,

741

00:35:48,104 --> 00:35:51,107

and and everything will be awesome

before Jesus returns.

742

00:35:51,149 --> 00:35:53,651

So it's just that the gospel advances

and everyone kind of gets

743

00:35:53,651 --> 00:35:56,529

people just keep getting saved and like,

stuff gets better.

744

00:35:56,529 --> 00:36:00,533

And, and then at the sort of the grand

finale of that, Jesus returns.

745

00:36:01,033 --> 00:36:03,452

And that view has been held

by some significant people.

746

00:36:03,452 --> 00:36:05,830

Jonathan Edwards, Bebe Warfield, etc.

747

00:36:05,830 --> 00:36:08,249

it seems to have fallen out of

fashion around World War one.

748

00:36:09,667 --> 00:36:10,626

That would make sense.

749

00:36:10,626 --> 00:36:12,336

Yeah, that would that would make sense.

750

00:36:12,336 --> 00:36:14,881

Oh. So, yeah.

751

00:36:14,881 --> 00:36:17,049

So that's,

752

00:36:17,049 --> 00:36:19,719

that is that then

the final major position,

753

00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:21,846

there is another position

that's been advocated

754

00:36:21,846 --> 00:36:23,764

more recently called new creation,

millennial ism.

755

00:36:23,764 --> 00:36:25,558

But we won't get into that.

756

00:36:25,558 --> 00:36:28,019

But the final position, it

which has been the dominant position

757

00:36:28,019 --> 00:36:31,147

in the history of the church

is a-millennialism, the a meaning.

758

00:36:31,147 --> 00:36:35,443

No, but it doesn't mean that there's it's

kind of a misnomer because,

759

00:36:37,195 --> 00:36:40,990

yeah, it doesn't mean that there's

no millennium, but it understands that

760

00:36:40,990 --> 00:36:45,703

what Revelation is talking about this

thousand year period where Satan is bound.

761

00:36:46,204 --> 00:36:51,167

It understands that as referring

to this whole era from of, of,

762

00:36:51,542 --> 00:36:54,629

between Jesus ascension

basically, and his return.

763

00:36:54,962 --> 00:36:58,299

So between Pentecost and Jesus return,

that whole era

764

00:36:58,883 --> 00:37:02,011

is is this period okay.

765

00:37:02,220 --> 00:37:06,015

And that would have been a fairly common

view in like, say, the early church,

766

00:37:06,015 --> 00:37:06,641

for example.

767

00:37:06,641 --> 00:37:08,017

And, and such that

768

00:37:08,017 --> 00:37:12,063

I think that was the more common view

in the early church, I think.

769

00:37:12,063 --> 00:37:15,274

But then it became the dominant view

kind of once Augustine changed.

770

00:37:15,274 --> 00:37:18,277

You know, when Augustine,

I think Augustine changed his mind

771

00:37:18,402 --> 00:37:19,779

in favor of this view.

772

00:37:19,779 --> 00:37:22,114

And then it kind of became

the dominant view, as most things,

773

00:37:22,114 --> 00:37:23,866

you know, that one,

whatever Augustine believed

774

00:37:23,866 --> 00:37:25,868

kind of kind of became the dominant view

for a long time.

775

00:37:25,868 --> 00:37:28,037

he had a lot of influence. Yeah.

776

00:37:28,037 --> 00:37:31,165

So those are kind of the three main ones

to keep in mind.

777

00:37:31,332 --> 00:37:31,999

in it. Yeah.

778

00:37:31,999 --> 00:37:35,002

Now what's weird is that people

I mean, people could say like

779

00:37:35,169 --> 00:37:38,881

how Satan being bound,

that just seems bonkers.

780

00:37:38,881 --> 00:37:42,593

Like, how can that refer to this whole era

when you've also just said,

781

00:37:42,593 --> 00:37:45,596

this is the time when the beast reigns

and all this kind of stuff, right?

782

00:37:45,930 --> 00:37:46,389

Right.

783

00:37:46,389 --> 00:37:49,600

So I think,

I think the key understanding here

784

00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,353

is that Revelation

20 speaks of Satan being bound

785

00:37:52,353 --> 00:37:55,356

so that he might not deceive the nations

any longer.

786

00:37:55,523 --> 00:37:58,317

To me, that's the key part of that.

787

00:37:58,317 --> 00:37:58,985

Right?

788

00:37:58,985 --> 00:38:01,988

And when you look at the history of

789

00:38:02,405 --> 00:38:05,408

what God has been trying

to do in the world

790

00:38:05,408 --> 00:38:09,120

from creation to, from the fall,

let's say, to now and redemptive history,

791

00:38:10,246 --> 00:38:12,456

Pentecost marks this moment

792

00:38:12,456 --> 00:38:16,961

where from then on,

the gospel has like exploded.

793

00:38:16,961 --> 00:38:19,964

Okay, there's been highs and lows, but,

794

00:38:21,632 --> 00:38:24,635

the people from all over the world,

795

00:38:25,553 --> 00:38:29,515

are believing God and Israel's

God and submit to Jesus now,

796

00:38:30,182 --> 00:38:33,602

like in ways that before

Jesus coming were not the case.

797

00:38:33,602 --> 00:38:33,811

Right.

798

00:38:33,811 --> 00:38:38,399

There was this one little camp, Israel,

who had the knowledge of God and the rest.

799

00:38:38,399 --> 00:38:41,027

Like so Paul says,

you know these times of ignorance.

800

00:38:41,027 --> 00:38:43,029

God winked out. He overlooked, right?

801

00:38:43,029 --> 00:38:46,741

But now he commands all people everywhere

to repent and so a-millennialism

802

00:38:46,741 --> 00:38:49,577

says, yes, the devil.

Sure there's another.

803

00:38:49,577 --> 00:38:50,911

There is one. From what?

804

00:38:50,911 --> 00:38:52,163

Taken from one angle,

805

00:38:52,163 --> 00:38:54,874

the devil has lots of power

and he's doing all sorts of crazy stuff.

806

00:38:54,874 --> 00:38:56,709

The beast is very much roaming,

807

00:38:56,709 --> 00:39:01,464

but from another angle,

the Satan's ability to keep the gospel

808

00:39:01,464 --> 00:39:04,675

from spreading to the nations

has been curtailed in a way, right?

809

00:39:05,134 --> 00:39:08,679

We have like the

the the way the gospel has spread

810

00:39:08,679 --> 00:39:11,891

in the last couple thousand years,

the way that the reason any of us

811

00:39:11,891 --> 00:39:15,394

are sitting here, just obviously assuming

that that the Bible,

812

00:39:15,394 --> 00:39:19,565

that we have a direct relationship

to Yahweh through Jesus,

813

00:39:19,774 --> 00:39:23,402

I mean, that's that's so unheard of

in the Old Testament, right?

814

00:39:23,611 --> 00:39:25,321

It's only when the spirit is poured out,

815

00:39:26,405 --> 00:39:27,531

that this changed and you

816

00:39:27,531 --> 00:39:31,327

start having people from the nations

that embrace, embrace the true God.

817

00:39:32,078 --> 00:39:34,622

So that's the understanding

of of how that how that works.

818

00:39:34,622 --> 00:39:37,625

And then and then the

then then they say, well,

819

00:39:38,584 --> 00:39:40,336

so that that's what that that means.

820

00:39:40,336 --> 00:39:44,548

And then right when Jesus comes back,

the devil will do his last to try to

821

00:39:45,132 --> 00:39:48,177

to try to bring everyone in rebellion

against against God.

822

00:39:48,177 --> 00:39:51,180

And Jesus will triumph that that's

that's a summary, if that makes sense.

823

00:39:51,555 --> 00:39:53,307

Yeah. That's okay.

824

00:39:53,307 --> 00:39:56,227

That actually it does kind of make sense

when you think about it.

825

00:39:56,227 --> 00:39:58,479

Like they do have some points

there, you know, about the gospel

826

00:39:58,479 --> 00:40:01,357

spreading to every corner of the globe,

which is, which is true.

827

00:40:01,357 --> 00:40:04,568

And, and the, the growth of the church

that we've seen in the last 2000 years.

828

00:40:05,194 --> 00:40:06,112

Fascinating.

829

00:40:06,112 --> 00:40:08,406

So all of you, you know, you can

you can have

830

00:40:08,406 --> 00:40:11,409

I think post-millennialism

is at least plausible to me.

831

00:40:11,826 --> 00:40:14,662

I lean a-millennial, but,

832

00:40:14,662 --> 00:40:19,083

but I think that all of these views have,

have their weaknesses too.

833

00:40:19,500 --> 00:40:20,084

Right.

834

00:40:20,084 --> 00:40:24,213

And so, I,

I think we don't want because it's

835

00:40:24,380 --> 00:40:27,550

mostly just a matter of interpreting one

chapter of Revelation.

836

00:40:27,550 --> 00:40:29,677

This doctrine doesn't

show up other places.

837

00:40:29,677 --> 00:40:33,889

So one of the reasons I'm hesitant to say,

yeah, this is definitely teaching

838

00:40:33,889 --> 00:40:36,350

a literal millenniam because it's like,

it's nowhere else in the Bible.

839

00:40:36,350 --> 00:40:39,728

And Revelation is

speaks in figures and imagery.

840

00:40:40,771 --> 00:40:42,731

So it's, you know,

841

00:40:42,731 --> 00:40:44,483

it's something

that we should certainly shouldn't

842

00:40:44,483 --> 00:40:46,902

make a big issue out of,

but those are kind of

843

00:40:46,902 --> 00:40:50,739

that's kind of an overview of the overview

of the views and, you know.

844

00:40:51,115 --> 00:40:51,449

Yeah.

845

00:40:51,449 --> 00:40:54,827

So maybe, maybe the takeaway

being don't, don't worry about this,

846

00:40:54,827 --> 00:40:58,998

but but so much like it would be easy

to, to overemphasize the importance

847

00:40:58,998 --> 00:41:02,668

of this particular view of this

or that or, you know, because

848

00:41:02,751 --> 00:41:04,587

because like you had said

in, in the American church,

849

00:41:04,587 --> 00:41:07,423

there would have been a time

and maybe still is in some places.

850

00:41:07,423 --> 00:41:09,300

You know, pre-millennialism

was essentially

851

00:41:09,300 --> 00:41:12,887

a litmus test in some cases of like, well,

if you don't believe this,

852

00:41:13,179 --> 00:41:13,888

I don't know, you're

853

00:41:13,888 --> 00:41:17,099

kind of outside of the bounds of what

we can handle here, you know, and that's

854

00:41:17,433 --> 00:41:20,895

and that just see it, it does seem

really sad that you would make

855

00:41:21,353 --> 00:41:22,730

there are some things that are worth

856

00:41:22,730 --> 00:41:25,900

drawing lines over,

you know, and being tests of orthodoxy.

857

00:41:25,900 --> 00:41:28,903

And that just seems too much, you know.

858

00:41:29,028 --> 00:41:31,739

So maybe that's a piece to leave with. Is

859

00:41:32,823 --> 00:41:34,450

there's a lot to this text.

860

00:41:34,450 --> 00:41:36,702

There's a lot of different ways

of, of looking at

861

00:41:36,702 --> 00:41:38,412

there's a lot of different opinions.

862

00:41:38,412 --> 00:41:41,707

But also maybe the sense of

we should be gracious with each other too.

863

00:41:42,166 --> 00:41:42,750

Yeah.

864

00:41:42,750 --> 00:41:45,753

I just

it feels like there's too many, people do

865

00:41:45,753 --> 00:41:49,548

get too emotionally invested

sometimes in their particular view.

866

00:41:49,590 --> 00:41:49,882

I don't know.

867

00:41:49,882 --> 00:41:52,593

And that has that

has been more of a problem than it is now.

868

00:41:52,593 --> 00:41:54,512

And my For me personally,

869

00:41:54,512 --> 00:41:56,555

speaking autobiographically, is

that was one of the things

870

00:41:56,555 --> 00:42:00,351

that sort of turned me off to Revelation

was like, it's all this weird.

871

00:42:00,351 --> 00:42:01,852

Everyone's like all hyped up about this

872

00:42:01,852 --> 00:42:05,314

weird, this weird debates over arcane

matters, right?

873

00:42:05,814 --> 00:42:08,484

And then when I started studying it