And often in the wellness community, the solution is how can I get more clients or patients? And it's a really Challenging way to look at your business, because the only way to make more money in that model is to work harder and harder and harder.

So what's the alternative then?

I think the alternative is to look

Welcome to the A. M. N. Practice Podcast, where we help acupuncturists and massage therapists shift from technician to transformational guide so you can create a purpose driven practice that brings lasting change to your clients and yourself. I'm your host, Dr. Jess Reynolds, and today I am chatting with Jason Stein, a licensed acupuncturist with over 25 years of experience, acupuncturist Who has successfully transitioned from urban practitioner to rural wellness center. Also, he runs the wellness renegades podcast and a coaching platform that helps practitioners build sustainable practice. So in today's episode, you will learn how to build a wellness practice that aligns with your values, financial goals, and natural rhythms. Why addressing your relationship with money is crucial for both personal and professional success, how to create an alternative revenue stream that can really prevent burnout and build long term sustainability and much, much more. Now Jason's journey from acupuncture school graduate to successful wellness center owner spans over two decades of hands on experience in both clinical practice. As well as business development as the former business curriculum instructor at Oregon College of Oriental Medicine and founder of Wellness Renegades, he brings a truly unique blend of clinical expertise and entrepreneurial wisdom. And having successfully built a thriving practice in a town of just 1200 people while maintaining a national coaching presence. Jason really is in a unique position to help practitioners create a sustainable, profitable practice that honors both their healing mission and business goals. So now let's dive into our conversation with Jason. Well, Jason, welcome. Chief rogue officer himself thanks so much for joining me.

Uh, thanks for having me, Jess.

So there are many different reasons why I'm excited to talk to you, right? I mean, one is, uh, as we were discussing before we started recording, you really are living the dream, right? Like you've, you've got a very successful wellness practice and you live above it and you're, you're in a rural community from what I understand as well. And you're also managing to make that super successful. And then on top of that, you're a fellow acupuncturist and you're interested in business, and there's so many cool different avenues and areas that we can really dive into. But if it's okay with you, first, I'm really curious about the process that you went through. You know, you've, you've graduated, you're practicing, and then I'm assuming you were in a city and then moved into a small town. What was that transition like and what sort of inspired that?

Yeah, it's a great question. You know, um, I've been in a couple of cities. When I graduated, you know, I've been licensed as an acupuncturist since, uh, 1998. So, um, Just over 25 years now, which feels like, I feel like an old man in some ways, but I feel pretty young in others. Uh, and so, uh, I moved from Albuquerque to Portland, Oregon, and that was in about 2000. Um, in Albuquerque. I was working as an acupuncturist in a hospital and uh, I also was teaching at the school because. My grandfather was an entrepreneur. My father was an entrepreneur. I was one of those kids that sold like, I'd go to Sam's Club and buy suckers and then resell them. So I've always been interested in like, how can you make money but also do what you love? And for a long time, I was working at the school in Portland, which was the Oregon College of Oriental Medicine. And I started consulting because I love business. I love helping people make money doing what they love. And when COVID hit in 2020, my wife and I had about a 10 year plan to move to a rural community and Portland got really weird. Like, you know, wherever you stand on masks, I respect, but they were having people mask outdoors and there were certain policies that I just didn't didn't agree with. And we knew it was time. So my wife and I headed to the coast. We went down south, and this is in the state of Oregon. And we went to all the small communities, seeing what would be a fit. And we came out to the Wallowas, which is Eastern Oregon. And there's a small community that's filled with artists and ranchers. And it's called Joseph Oregon, also known as the Swiss Alps of Oregon. And we decided we were going to land here and we bought a tiny house and we decided to build a wellness center from the ground up because I used to teach all the business curriculum at the Oregon College of Oriental Medicine. And I used to say, if you have a chiropractor and acupuncturist, a homeopath and a massage therapist in the same building, who makes the most annually?

That's a good question. My guess would be Cairo.

It's the guy that owns the building.

Oh, so Cairo's building it. Okay. Yeah.

So, um, I, we're in a very small town, so the, uh, population here is 1200 and the county itself is 7, 000 and my wife's a naturopath and so we don't take insurance and we've built just in a couple of years, a dream practice and, uh, So, we I think the main question I'm circling back to is how did we get here? During COVID, it was a push of, are you really living life on, on your own terms? And I was mostly, but not entirely. And so this gave me the opportunity.

Hmm. That, that little last thing you said, mostly, but not entirely. I think, I think that's a really important thing to consider because so often people are okay with the mostly and you know what, there's nothing wrong with that. Right. Totally fine. But really sitting down and saying, am I okay with this? Mostly, but not entirely that last little bit. Wow. You know, so that, that was enough that not entirely was enough for you to uproot your life, move into a rural community and then just start from scratch. That's, that's amazing.

Yeah, there's a, there's a feeling out here that people say either the county welcomes you in or they kick you out and, and because we don't take insurance, one of the smartest things we did was we built a two hour donation clinic. And so, uh, there were one or two other acupuncturists that had come to town and tried this and it didn't work and they said, community acupuncture doesn't work. And I said, well. I believe it can. And so we brought in a massage therapist. And as I said, my wife's a naturopath. And for two hours a week, we open the clinic doors on donation. And some people bring money, some people bring chickens, some people bring vegetables. Like it's really an interesting, um, community. And it's probably my favorite two hours of the week.

What I find really interesting about that is you're, you're taking, you're taking a principle of business, right? So we could dig into these basic principles of how do you sort of start and grow a wellness practice. A great way is doing something like you said, you know, I have two hours a week in which is open by donation. But what I find really cool and unique about what you just said is most people think donation is Money. But being in a small community, having been open minded to think, you know, actually, if we're really open to donation, we have to be much more open minded as far as what people can actually donate. Because maybe some people genuinely can't donate money, but they got a bunch of chickens. That is so cool.

Yeah. And we will really say to people, we don't want you to stretch yourself. Like we're, we're doing really well in the practice. We have massage therapists, we have kickboxing, we have an infrared sauna. And so the, the strain on us personally isn't always. is our landlord going to raise the rent next month? Like, how can we work harder? And often in the wellness community, the solution is how can I get more clients or patients? And it's a really Challenging way to look at your business, because the only way to make more money in that model is to work harder and harder and harder.

So what's the alternative then?

I think the alternative is to look at different models that already work. One of those models is to bring on associates. One of those models is you might have product lines that you really really believe in and that you share for free all the time. You're like, you, these supplements are the best or this pillow that I, I love my pillow. Right. And so to look at finding other revenue streams, the last is in the wellness space, most people are working session to session. And I don't think that's the best model. I believe that you can either do membership models Or that you can do programs. And, uh, often in the wellness world, people want programs because they're wanting that high level touch, um, of having someone by their side for the journey. Yeah,

right? You get, you get the type of practitioner whose primary demographic is just like the walk ins, you know, the, the once a month, once every couple of months coming for a checkup and beautiful. Um, but when you get the practitioners who are much more interested in long term care, and maybe dealing with chronic illness, or they know ahead of time, I'm going to be needing to see you for a minimum of. X number of sessions, then it definitely makes a lot more sense to do memberships or programs. And when you are considering programs, like how, how do you develop them? Do you have like unique programs for each person that you would develop? Or is it like a pre made program? So make a list your website and it's like holistic health

pre made programs work that well. Um, I just launched a mastermind. We worked together for six months this year. There were, um, seven providers that each built their own program that was very uniquely tailored to them. And so one was an act, a natural acne relief program, because this acupuncturist is trained in, uh, uh, really a style of dermatology where most people are putting harsh chemicals on their, on their skin to try to get rid of the acne. So it's kind of like headed the opposite direction. Yeah. Now as well, skincare products often have endocrine disruptors in them. So you're changing your hormone state. And so this woman has built a, a program where my goal was that everyone would have the program done with the intention of having the first person in. And, and she did, she had the first person in the program.

That's super cool. Now, are these people that are working in your clinic or in your, your wellness center?

No, these are people that are national. So, um, I have two wings to my business. One is Wellness Renegades, and the other is Wallowa Avenue Wellness. And so the Wellness Center, Wallowa Avenue, um, is local. And then Wellness Renegades, I've been coaching businesses for, you know, 15, 17 years now.

Okay, cool. I mean, and it's, it's two very different. I guess conversations that we can have. The one which we've been kind of up to now has been the, the practice itself and building the wellness center. And then there's the more expansive now. That's really interesting. One of the things I really appreciate that is a topic that I, I, I'm going to have to see preach instead of just speak about, because I'm, I'm fairly adamant about it and I never really stop is what I call off the table stuff, right? So as practitioners, like you said, is there, there is a cap to the amount of money a person could make. because there's only so many hours in the day and we only have so much capacity to treat patients and maybe even there's just so many people who need treatment. So the actual dollars per hour of being a practitioner, it is always limited. But then there's these other things that we can do, which I'm calling off the table, which is taking our experience as a wellness practitioner, as a business owner, and as whatever other cool thing we do, bundle them together and then help other people in the same situation. And it sounds a lot more like that's what wellness renegades is about. Okay.

Yes. Wellness renegades came because I believe most people were getting a high end lease in a strip mall 15 years ago, and, uh, they were following a cookie cutter model that really often led to no money saved in retirement and, uh, burnout. Yeah. And so I really wanted to, uh, Take a look at how can you flip the script on the models and what models work for for the renegade you know, it's david versus goliath out there for me because You know you're competing against a pharmacy That is selling medication. Like if you go into the doctor, you usually get five minutes now if you're in a Pretty high end system. Sometimes it's down to three minutes like the ma will take care of you and tell you You You don't have to wait that much longer. You're usually in there for three minutes and you're, you've been waiting 30 to 45 minutes. And then the first thing that comes out is the prescription pad for the script, right? And so knowing that people are just yearning for that individual attention, there's two models that I see that can really work. And one is, uh, really seeing a lot of people for a very low cost. Okay. And the other is a more boutique service of seeing a few people for a very high cost. And then from there you can paint between the lines, in the lines, outside the lines of what do you want to create?

Can we talk about both of those avenues? So there's a practitioner who's more along the lines of more volume for less dollar. What does that look like in application? Like when you're working with your coaching clients and they've chosen that avenue, let's just assume they're not painting out of the lines too terribly much, but they've chosen that avenue.

Um, so you're talking about seeing a lot of people for a lower cost?

Mm hmm.

Yeah. So, um, I have a past client, uh, in the state of California, Cal med doesn't pay that much. I think it pays 40. It might be a little less, a little more, but he figured out he wanted a very high volume practice. So he has six treatment rooms and he's seeing six people per hour, right? Six times 40 is what he's seeing. And he does incredibly well. And this model would drive other people crazy. Like you have to find your natural rhythm. For some people, it is really easy to see a high volume practice and you feel energized at the end of the week. For other people, you go for those high numbers and you're just like, I just need to sleep and my adrenals are burnt out. And so the challenge is, let's say you have a five element practitioner or a therapist that wants to spend two hours with people. But they're still charging that hour rate and the numbers don't flush out.

hmm. Mm hmm.

And so you have to figure out reverse engineer the numbers. Is this really a profitable venture or am I just working all the time?

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of, a lot of pain points that you just identified in there. I mean, the first was, natural rhythm, you know, like, like I imagine being that practitioner in California described, which I, I, I've tried it, hated it. You know, like the idea of just pumping through that just, Oh, my whole body gets the shivers. And then immediately like develop chronic fatigue syndrome. Just so it doesn't work for me, but I'm curious then. So you're working with these, these practitioners that I suppose the first problem that you would help people with is helping them find their flow and their rhythm and sort of what they actually want to do. So is, is that part of the process? And if so, how do you go about helping people with that?

Absolutely. Um, you know, I, I generally work with people on that level at six month contracts where I'm on a retainer. So that means they can email me, they can text me. And we always start with a strategic plan because most wellness providers don't have a marketing plan, don't have a strategic plan. It's like putting out fires and, and often they're on a path that's headed towards a brick wall, but they don't know how to pivot. And I want to say one more thing, just that I think super important is, is to not be judgmental. Like, I was a little judgmental of people that would see 6 to 8 an hour. So I went to see 1 of those people that I knew was getting good, solid feedback. I was blown away. I was blown away by my experience as a healer and it broke my kind of pre context that, well, they're just in it for the money here. They're just like, and it's not true. They're just, they have a different rhythm that just you and I couldn't do, but it's perfect for them.

You know, I really appreciate you bringing that up, Jason, because it's, it's so easy for, for one person's style to be like, this is the way to do it. And if you're not doing it this way, then fill in the blank. Right. So I really appreciate you bringing that up because if it is genuinely, authentically the way the person thrives and loves to practice, then I'm sure that they could provide an amazing experience.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I used to, I used to poo poo the other way as well. I've learned a lot in the years that I've been doing this and that is, you know, uh, I've seen people work with someone for an hour to two hours and charge 500, 2, 000. And like, there's a part of me that used to be like, well, that's wrong. That should not, but that's their rhythm and it works for them. And their patients are happy to pay that price. So we have to get into a question of, How do I resonate and what's my natural rhythms? That's what often if you've come from a background of Chinese medicine that it's all originates from.

Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that completely. And, and that's a, that's another topic that I love to teach on is, is building a business that honors the natural rhythms. And when I think of the second type of practitioner, the one that's more along the lines of the boutique experience, you know, wanting to spend a couple hours and really like making it an experience, right. That, that could certainly be a struggle because I remember at some point in time coming across, you wrote perhaps a mini book or something on charging what you're worth. Right? So it's like, how do you identify that if you're the practitioner who's seeing six people an hour or is a practitioner who really wants that boutique experience? How do you charge what you're worth? And how do you do that? Figure out how to price your services in a way that is sustainable for you in the business that doesn't leave any resentment or animosity between you and your patients, which can certainly happen. And that makes you feel like, Hey, I'm worth something.

Yeah, I think that we have to, as healers, we have to talk about money. You know, one of my favorite quotes from one of my mentors was, be their healer, not their banker. Cause, cause as wellness providers, we're often so concerned that our prices are too high or that we wouldn't pay that price. And, and I think the challenge that I see that wellness providers face is that We often give such good service and we don't want to charge for that service. So often I have clients that are giving VIP, like they're on retainer. They're answering texts and emails on the weekend, not getting paid for it. They're developing. Individually tailored formulated herbs not getting paid for that time to put that together, right? And so I think we have to start to reevaluate Where are we giving it away for free? That we wouldn't ask our best friend to do the same Like we would be like you're insane. You you know, you if you do a spreadsheet you're making seven dollars an hour

How do you do that then? How does one go about that process?

I think it starts with doing your money work. Like all of us were trained by our grandparents or parental figures or parents. Someone taught us certain things about money that may not be true. And we have to break through the falsehoods of our belief systems that aren't serving us. So that's really the first way. Um, and then the second way is we want to start to hang out with people that are successful in different models that we're interested in. Right? There's an old story about a, a guy who really wanted to, um, be a sailor, but he lived in Arizona. Like it's hard to sail on the ocean in Arizona. So he moved to California and, and he just started hanging out at the docks and started making friends. And next thing you know, someone wanted to start helping him. And this is a true story for me. When I moved out here, I had touched a gun. three times in my life, but I always wanted to learn how to hunt. And so, um, two years ago, I got a hunting mentor and I've started to feed my family with buck and elk and, and, uh, venison. And, you know, just like, you know, really starts with, it's not going to happen in an echo chamber. And there really is somebody that's probably already doing what you want to do that is really doing it financially successfully.

You know, that brings up an interesting thought for me and I'm, I'm curious if you'd like to explore this because what I found personally is as a teacher and a podcast host and a coach and a practitioner is I, I spend a lot of my time in this capacity talking about, Hey, here's the things that I do to help my clients and patients and so on and so forth. But you just said, you know, like, you gotta, you gotta mentor. And I'm curious, if you're okay with it, can we dig into a bit more of, like, how, how have you gotten to where you are? Who are the people who have helped you in that process? Or are you just like, it's all me? You

No, no, it's definitely not all me. So my first mentor was my grandfather and he was a serial entrepreneur. He came in through Ellis Island from Poland into New York. Um, he started a cabinet. Well, first he was a banker and, uh, he was Jewish and he was the first manager of the bank that was Jewish because they didn't want Jewish managers at the time. And from there he started saving money and started, um, a lumber company and when lumber started to go down, he realized the excess leftover lumber he could get, um, made into cabinets and started doing cabinet making. And so he just went from thing to thing. Where what are the resources? What do people need? And how do I mix those together? And he just, he taught me a lot about business. He, he was very disappointed when I went to acupuncture school because he wanted me to go to Harvard business school, but it wasn't my path. Another mentor for me for 10 years, I worked for a company called Heart of Business, and I was really good at being a coach, but I wasn't so great at creating systems. And so I found a position as an associate within a consulting firm that really wanted every act of business to be an act of love. And they've done incredibly well over the years. Their old tagline was when you want to make a difference and you need to make a profit. And that gentleman's name was Mark Silver. And Mark taught me, um, Sufi principles, and he overlaid them into business structures. And, um, you know, if you don't know Sufism, it's the mystical branch of Islam. And to think about in the times that we've lived in since September 11th, to build a successful company on the mystical branch of Islamic culture, it's pretty crazy. Now. I identify as a, uh, like a brother of Sufism where I'm not a Sufi, like I don't identify as being a Sufi, but I believe that the principles of kindness and love and if you've ever read Rumi or Hafiz, the poetry just says it all. And it taught me that you can really go out and left field and get some tremendously successful results. And so big shout out to Mark Silver. Um, the third mentor I'll talk about is Ken Weiser and Ken became, um, one of my closest friends and Kenny was a naturopathic physician. But before he became a naturopath, he was making films in Hollywood and he got testicular cancer and he stopped everything and decided to heal his cancer naturally. And Ken Weiser is the first alternative provider that worked for Nike. He started a wellness center on Nike campus in Hillsboro, Oregon. And, uh, he then became the first naturopath in the Providence health system. And if you live on the West coast of Oregon, Providence health system is pretty big. And he went in and he just wanted to bring the medicine inside. And now I believe they have like five acupuncturists and five, like way more than just him. And he's taught me again and again. How to open doors and opening doors is a very important element when you're a renegade because if it's just you versus the world, it is a very hard road. But if it's you coming and saying, let me just be helpful. So let me give you a specific example. Jess of of Ken Weiser's teaching and that is, um. I've been through coach training and part of my coach training was to offer something free to a company. And I have always been interested in meditation. I'm a regular meditator. So I developed a meditation in the workplace program. Um, and I went to Providence cause I had one connection that knew someone in, in HR and human resources, and they have a, EAP program, which is an employee assistant program. And I said, can I do a free two hour talk on meditation in the workplace? And this was a long time ago. And they said, yes. And, and they used to have a recording where you would call the recording and sign up that way. That's how long ago it was. And, uh, it sold out in the first 12 hours and they asked me to do it again. I did it again. It sold out in the first six hours. And then they said, We want to pay you to do this. Are you interested? I said, absolutely. And I had no idea that they were one of the largest employee assistance programs in the Northwest region. So this is the municipalities of Multnomah County, which is the largest County in the state of Oregon. This is, um, the, uh, uh, library system. This is, uh, Like just tremendous amount of access. And so I just started doing that regularly and getting paid to do it. I don't believe I would get paid to do it if I went and I said, will you pay me to do this? So that was a Ken Weiser tip for me.

I think from the, just the three examples, and I'm sure there are many more, but what are, what an amazing foundational set of skills, right? From your grandfather, just basic entrepreneurship mindset, which unbelievably valuable skill to have. And as you said at the beginning, the type of kid who would go to the store and buy a box of lollipops and sell them, right? So like this, this root in entrepreneurship. And then I appreciate the second mentor being like, how do you, how do you do that? But with heart, how do you do that with a foundation in, um, I guess giving, uh, you know, I think of the GoGiver, the book, the GoGiver, if you've ever read it, and it's a brilliant book, such a good book, right? And then followed by, uh, another, a central skill, which is, is, I just called it network or opening doors, which is like networking and building a community. And, and I'm curious within these things, right? So you've got this, like, well, just imagine just for the sake of conversation that we've got these three different areas that have led you to being the successful entrepreneur and business owner that you are. I know for myself that a big part of how I choose to and certainly speak about how I conduct myself is I think authenticity should be like top, like you should build your business out of authenticity. And yet, I have gone years down the road of inauthenticity before I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on, hang tight here. So I'm curious if you've had any similar experiences, right? You've got these brilliant mentors and people who've helped you out, taught you solid lessons, and yet you either unconsciously went in the opposite direction or deliberately chose to ignore it. Any of these experiences where you've acted against what you genuinely believe?

Yeah, I think there's been a few times. But before we get into that, Jess, I have one more mentor because I realized the ones I named were all male. And there's a female mentor, which is my mom, who was a custody mediator for 40 years. And all she did is work with, um, people that really did not like each other and how to mediate conflict. And I think to be really good at business, you have to start to understand conflict resolution and, uh, crucial conversations is a great book. Um, I was trained in nonviolent communication with Marshall Rosenberg. So just really, um, with the yin, Is the young and with the young is the end that you really, um, having multiple mentors, multiple personalities, multiple characteristics, um, super helpful. So coming back to your question, was there a time, you know, I think that, uh, there were a couple of positions. that I probably stayed in too long. And, um, that the Oregon College of Oriental Medicine, I really, um, I was helpful, but I feel like I probably should have either recruited additional support or I should have handed the reins over, um, probably a year or two earlier than I did. Um, and I have some remorse about that. Um, and then I also feel the same way with, with heart of business where when I'm working for someone else. I tend to stick it out a bit longer because I feel like I have responsibilities and I should show up and I've made agreements. And what I've learned is that everything's, uh, negotiable. So if you give your word to someone, including yourself, you can renegotiate. You need to reflect in the renegotiation. Am I doing this just to get out of being my word? Or is there a time to quit things? Okay. And if there's a time to quit things, how can I do it with integrity?

Mm hmm I really appreciate that this idea of renegotiation. I've certainly struggled with that. You know, like, I'm, I'm the type of person is like, if I give my word, you know, if it kills me, oh, hell, my fault. Right? So I really appreciate that, that it's possible to have integrity and be a person of your word and really mean it. And also acknowledge the fact at some point in time, like, okay, you know what? I know I said this, but it turns out that, something. And I'm curious about that moment, right? You've gave me two examples of these, these, like it kind of stuck it out too long. How did you know, or what were like the first signs in retrospect where, where you maybe could have made that decision, um, to, to move on or leave or renegotiate?

Yeah. You know, um, it's a, it's a great question. And I think like a parallel metaphor would be like, if you're in a partnership and you see that person that their car's in the driveway, when you're coming home, are you excited or are you disappointed? And so if you, if you are doing something like right now, I have a client that has their own acupuncture practice, but they go and work in a community practice one day a week. And they know that they're past due to let it go. And they feel responsible and they know all the patients there love them. But if you're headed to work and you know that it doesn't feel good in your gut and your system, that's when it's time to have the conversation.

Right. And I also feel like in our industry, as practitioners, I think it's particularly important, right? Like if you're working at a, I don't know, a department store or like if you're a mechanic or something like that, and your heart's not in it, you could, you could still do the job and you could technically get the job done very proficiently. But when you're showing up to work and you're in a room with a patient and you're not in it, it's a totally different thing. So I think it's super important to really monitor these, these whole body signs of like. No,

Yeah, and it could be that you modify where there's just certain patients that you don't like working with or clients that you don't like working with, but you're so used to saying yes. And really, I've actually created a phrase, which is, I really enjoy working with you, but I'm not the best person to help you get where you want to go. Let me refer you to this person over here.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's that whole taking accountability. And you know, the, it's not you, it's me, but it actually is that case. And it's a way of phrasing it in a way where it's, it's genuinely about client care. It's genuinely about wanting the absolute best for our clients and knowing that we can't be everything to everyone. Right.

No, and I think that that's a real challenge. Not only can we not be everything to everyone, we probably can't do all the things we want to do in one lifetime. And when people niche down or they start to get subspecialties, they really fear that it's like chopping off an arm and a leg. But what they, what they don't realize is that if you pick some areas of subspecialty, you get better and better and better at it because that's where your focus is. And then people are more and more appreciative rather than being, uh, A dabbler, like we've all seen on the Facebook forums of like, Hey, I don't treat kids, but I have one now. What do I do in this situation? You refer them out. Like that's what you should do.

you know, one, one curiosity that's been sort of hanging here in the back of my mind is something you said earlier, you know, your grandpa, this, this entrepreneur and an amazing story from the little I heard. Uh, and he, he's a little disappointed when he decided to go to acupuncture school. Right. And, um, I'm very curious about. That, you know, again, we haven't dug into your history, like what you were doing and the version that existed prior to acupuncture school, but from the sounds of it, it was quite a strong departure. So what, what was it that that led you into this amazing world of holistic wellness and acupuncture weirdness?

Yeah. Yeah. Great question. So it really started, uh, early on, um, my first year, I went to Arizona state, uh, in Tempe, Arizona, and I started in business cause they have a very good business school. And my economics teacher. was on Reagan's, President Reagan's cabinet. And it was the worst. I hated it. And I realized, um, I wasn't going to knack getting a business degree. So I switched to psychology and I got very fascinated in human development and human interaction. And, um, my, um, Father, uh, I had two dads, a stepdad who was a real estate agent and, um, my, uh, pop, as I call him, uh, was a sociologist. And, uh, he, when I went to acupuncture school, I was headed to getting a PhD in industrial organizational psychology. And so that's business psychology. And he was pretty sad. And He, he like lives his life in academia and, um, really thought that I was making a mistake until I graduated and I was recruited to build one of the first integrative medicine programs in a Western hospital. And so I've met so many students that families just were not supportive. They're like, you're crazy. What are you doing? And, um, it was the best decision I could make. Now with that being said, there's like an elephant in the room in Chinese medicine that people need to realize, including any wellness situation is all the curriculums are going up. They're skyrocketing, right? And so it always hurts my heart a little bit when I find someone does what they do, but they have 200, 000 in student loan debt. And that includes physicians and surgeons and like acupuncturists. And so what I would say is if break the model. Like maybe there's a way to get, um, a degree way more affordable. Most people don't talk about poke attack, which you can become an acupuncturist if you would like at a fraction of the cost. Um, you won't get the Chinese medicine or the herbal side as much, but, um, there are ways in which to get where you want to go without the burden.

Yeah, yeah, I like that too. And I, I've, I've found particularly in the realm of, of TCM, like I taught in a couple of different, uh, TCM colleges. And I'm always curious, like, why, like, this is, this is a strange medicine, you know, like it's, it's mostly mystical, unless you actually get into the scientific portion. But a lot of the schools are teaching like, like, no, no, no, it has nothing to do with the endocrine system. It is a yin issue. And it's like, oh, right. So like, I'm so curious about that. So I've talked to countless students. And what I found is so many of them, they're interested in the philosophy, the philosophy of like, this genuinely, deeply tradition of holistic medicine. And it's like, okay. If you're into the philosophy, how do you feel about putting needles into people? Eh, how do you feel about talking about chi all day? Oh God, kill me, you know. So,

Well, I would say one more. If you're into the holistic philosophy, how's your, your money house doing?

right.

Right. And so there is a holistic way of being that each area of your life can actually be in flow. Thank you.

Mm hmm. Yeah. And kind of playing on that idea of when we, when we think of, As a, as a TCM practitioner, is we're often taught, in fact, we're always taught about the body being this whole thing, and one part is affecting the other part, and we kind of pride ourselves on this. I'm a holistic practitioner because I understand that if somebody has a problem in their X part of their body, it affects. Beautiful. Great. Love it. But for some reason, We kind of stop there. We, we stop the holistic understanding at the body and, and we maybe dabble into the, you know, uh, what is it called? Biopsychosocial model. But how many people seriously consider the fact that, hey, you know what? Your, your finances are part of this holistic system that we call, uh, your life, right? I appreciate you bringing that up.

Yeah, I think it's important because I do feel like because of money trauma that a lot of the best wellness providers that I would refer to left or right struggle financially. And I think it's very important to have assets and to manage the debt load in a way that brings you freedom rather than feel suffocated. Yeah,

demographics I mostly interact with in the wellness community are going to be massage therapists, acupuncturists, and osteopaths. Now, where I live, the barrier to entry to massage therapy is the classic mirror test, you know, like in, Yes, you're alive. Welcome to the program. It's not that much harder for acupuncture. You do need to have, um, you know, potentially an undergrad, depending on what college, right? So what I mean is the barrier to entry with a lot of the demographics I work with is very low. And I I've suspected over the years that part of the reason of that has actually to do with socio socioeconomic status. They don't have the money or believe they can't afford to have some sort of idea of some other form of education, like an undergrad or whatever it might be. So all this is to say. My suspicion is a lot of people in this industry do have money issues and

that's probably true for the average American as well,

right. Yeah, I suppose I'm, I'm narrowing it down a little bit too much, but, but certainly it's the case and this point has come up a couple of times in our conversation. So, so is that something you work with people talking to them about is, how do you, how do you overcome these money issues, whether they came from, you know, poverty or even middle middle class or lower middle class? There's a lot of mental barriers that tell a person, Hey, you know what? Unconsciously and deeply embedded. This is the amount of money that that you're going to make pre or something like that. Do you help people with that? Yeah.

So, you know, my personal story is that I had a business partner that embezzled money out of the business and it was a tremendous amount and it impacted me so much that I went through a bankruptcy and that was the hardest period of my life because bankruptcy to me was I failed miserably. And, uh, failure, you can take it two ways. One is. you failed and you're a loser and you shouldn't be involved in business at all, or you failed, you can figure out why and what you did wrong and you can really get some good hard knocks lessons. And what I realized when I failed When this partner embezzled money is I was an ostrich. I never looked at the numbers. I put my head in the sand. I figured someone else had control of that part and that I'd be okay. And ultimately you, you can describe your money relationship by saying what kind of relationship you have with money. And if it's a hands off, I don't look at it relationship. That's think about a friend. If it was a hands off, we don't talk relationship, wouldn't be a very healthy relationship. And so I had to do my money work. I had to hire a bookkeeper and I was really scared. I like, I had to ask my bookkeeper to change the profit and loss statements and my personal budget into pie charts and bar graphs, because I just my brain would get so overloaded looking at all the numbers. I needed it to be more simple. And that was the first step. And then the second step was I had heard Dave Ramsey say, you should have a thousand cash in your house at all times for emergencies and people that don't get hit with things all the time. And I would get hit with like something from the car would go wrong or the washer would break and, and I saved this money and I kid you not, it was like immediately those things stopped happening. was just like. Some sort of energetic universal principle that I don't fully understand, but I can tell from experience that there was something there. So I rolled up my sleeves and I started really learning about the energy of money. And I read books and I would do exercises and ultimately with my clients, if you don't start there, it's like building a new house on a piece of sand. Like you have to have a solid foundation because there are two reasons to be in business. One is you want to have more freedom in life on your own terms, but the other is you have to be profitable for sustainability. Like even the government says if you operate at a loss, you can't do it every year, right?

I feel like there's So much territory for, for growth in that department, because I think a lot of people don't want to, or believe that it's too confusing, or they're operating under the belief that whatever they were taught about money, because it is kind of a taboo subject is, is the way to go. So where do people start? You know, like, let's, let's assume somebody hears this podcast and they're like, okay, you know what? Yeah, you know, Jason's onto something here. Maybe, maybe I do have this, this. I believe, like, an example I want to get into, but you reminded me of an example. I had this friend, he used to always say, you know, every single time I get a little head, every time something happens. And sure enough, every single time he got a head, something would happen. And I'm like, that's weird. Cause that's never really happened to me. Right. So anyways, somebody is listening to this and they're like, okay, I get it. And I agree. Where do they start?

Well the first thing coming back to your friend It's really amazing because I do believe there's intergenerational trauma Around money like as I said, my grandfather came through Ellis Island. He had to flee everything and come with nothing with his, his parents, um, and start over. And so I think because of this taboo that you say and the trauma, it's just not talked about. And so you're not really supposed to ask what people make per year. You're, you know, money is a subject that you're, you're not really. supposed to be public about. So then if you're private about it, but you've never had any mentors in it, then it's like, where do you go? And that's your question. And my answer is go find like Instagram reels now or YouTube videos are great for learning principles, right? Um, uh, YNAB, I forget. your something budget like Uh, you got to start you got to start having a budget. You can't just not look at it. And that's my experience of Hoping for the best that it all flushes out in the end like the more you have a relationship with it, the healthier that relationship gets. So a couple of books. Um, I'm a big fan of, of learning for free or getting paid to learn. And so, uh, Libby is like a service where you can get library books in the U S on audio book. And so I'm a big audio book fan. Uh, the soul of money is by Lynn twist. Uh, your money or your life is a great one. That's been around forever. Dave Ramsey, uh, is a guy. Um, uh, and then there's a relatively recent one. I think it's called, uh, become rich, lucky bitch or something like that. So I can't, I'm paraphrasing the title, but that's a pretty good one. And it's kind of like, if, if you're stuck on tip talk and doom scrolling, like add all those minutes up that you're wasting and go pick one book and do the exercises in the book. So that would be the first step. And then eventually I would getting a mentor or a coach, whether it's free or paid where someone else is already successful and they're like, yeah, let's head this direction and let's work this out. And, and often you need that handholding because it's so painful to look at. It's like, I just rather not. And that's going to get you to the same place you are right now.

Yeah, yeah, I like that progression and I grew up with, similar to you, I had a dad and a stepdad and my mom, right, and all just amazing. A very fortunate story to say that. That turned out very well in my situation, but I had a stepdad who was just like, Or, uh, my, sorry, my, my biological dad was terrible with money. Absolutely terrible. Money came in, it was gone immediately. But then my stepdad, he was like, you got to know the law of accelerated zero and both tradesmen, right? Like carpenter and plumber. So, but one was like obsessive on it. And then I got a mom who's just like, you know, money, whatever. Um, so I had this kind of mixed bag of learning about money, but I learned enough from particular from my stepdad to have a good idea, right? Some insights. And that. did a lot of good for me. But then there was this moment when I downloaded my first money management app for free. I couldn't believe the difference that made, you know, similar to the old principle of putting money in jars, right? But something super simple that's free that people could do is just download a money management app. And that's it. It will tell you like, Hey, it looks like you're kind of spending a bit too much at Starbucks, maybe you pump the brakes, you know, so again, free. Then there's books. I really appreciate that progression. And then moving into the, somebody gets that app and they're like, Oh, okay. This is, this is harsh. This is something I don't want to do well. I think, I think it's a pretty essential thing, not only in business, but in life. So I appreciate that, that idea that you also offered of looking into hiring somebody that can help you. And it might sound counterintuitive, you know, like to save money, you're spending money on a coach, but it definitely will, uh, will pay dividends. I'm sure.

And coaches are expensive. Maybe you start with a bookkeeper, right? Maybe, maybe you get yourself on payroll. So as opposed to like just taking random draws, you can start to see very clearly what your dry is every month, right? So they're simple steps. And then what most people don't talk about in the healing world is The way we love healing, like we learn something new in the healing world and it works and we just are fans of helping people heal. There are people that just love tax code and numbers. They are like wonky about it. They're like, did you know the new tax code in the state's changing? And like, you can take this extra deduction over here. Like, no, I don't know that. I don't read any of that stuff. So having like a team around you that can really help you is. Super valuable.

Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's an amazing moment in life, isn't it? As a business owner, when you realize, like, there's this thing that you've been just slogging away at and you, you just can't stand it and you're not good at it. It's a nightmare. And then there's that moment when you hire somebody to do something for the first time and you're like, hold on a second. I don't have to do this thing? Oh my god! It frees up not only your time, which allows you to actually invest your time and energy in the things that will make you more money, but it also fills up that mental real estate and energy and all those other things, so it's a barrier for so many people to pay somebody else to do something that damn it, I know I can do it, but oh, it is so often well worth it.

Oh, especially the things you really don't like to do. And what I would say about that is also, you know, like, uh, I'm sure Jess, you have malpractice insurance. I have malpractice insurance as opposed to find the lowest hanging fruit. You might want to find somebody that has insurance because they're not going to embezzle from you because I've actually had three clients in the last five years that their office manager was embezzling. And so. When you hand off duties, you want to make sure you're protected.

Mm hmm. I really appreciate that insight, because that, that, that, That is a scary thing to consider, a very scary thing. And, uh, having gone through it yourself, I'd imagine it's, uh, it's left a pretty, pretty powerful exclamation point in,

I, I have, I have some good hindsight, uh, lessons that being one of them. Yeah.

And, you know, lessons we've learned, one of the things that I enjoy about workshops when I'm doing panel workshops is biggest mistakes. And that's something I would love to dig in, but we are getting close to an hour and I want to be respectful of your time. So, if it's okay, I would like to kind of shift into a question that I ask. Virtually everybody. It's like my, my, uh, finishing question for the season of the podcast. And it's, so as, as a practitioner and somebody who's been in this industry now for, what'd you say, 25 ish years, right?

Yeah. 25

25 ish years, like a long time, quarter of a century. You've probably, uh, had a lot of different treatments, right? You've experienced being the patient and of course you have been the practitioner, you've hired them. So you probably have a lot of insight into this. In your experience, what do you think makes a practitioner successful? I

Hmm. You know, when I was at, uh, the college, I did some research on this because I, I found that I wanted to know what were the ingredients of the most successful practitioner and the, the number one thing that came to the top, which surprised me 'cause I thought it was gonna be clinical skills, was being a great listener. And so I have held that. true and true that, you know, all your patients, all your clients want to get somewhere. And are you trying to really listen to see where the obstacles, the stagnation, the deficiencies, the excess are, or are you just trying to fix it and get them there? Yeah, yeah,

promise the audience, whoever's listening, I didn't tell Jason to say that. I say that because, honestly, verbatim, word for word, this is the thing I say all the time. Because I have done the same thing. I have 4, 000 practitioners asking that question. And my expectation was exactly the same as yours. I'm a continuing ed provider, right? I want to make courses that help people succeed. So what I thought it was going to be is. technical skills and clinical outcome. Because quite frankly, that's the type of courses people look for, right? So it's like, what makes you successful? You would think what people are spending their money on, but no, I got the exact same answer as you did listening skills, communication skills. So I'm so grateful that you brought soft skills. That's it. Yeah. Yeah, I'm, I'm really, really grateful that you said that answer, uh,

Huh?

for that. And before, before we kind of wrap up, is there anything else there?

No, no, just listening.

And before we, we tie a bow on this is, is there anything else that you'd like to dig into any area that we kind of tiptoed into, but you'd like to dig into a little bit more?

Ooh, um, just the area of like, we lose a lot of, uh, really good providers because they feel like they can't do it, the business side of it. Like they have the healing side down. And I would say, you know, um, There's so many people out there that want you to succeed and, um, to stick with it and find free help, find low cost help, and then move your way up to, as you're making more, invest more into getting the support that you need.

And I know that one, one area that is helpful. I've listened to a few episodes of the wellness renegade podcast, and this is the type of stuff you talk about, right? So I'd strongly encourage anybody who's listening to check out Jason's podcast. Again, that's wellness renegades podcast, and I'm going to make sure to put a link in that description. But if people want to get ahold of you, maybe reach out and work with you directly. What's the best way for them to? to do that.

Oh yeah, you can go to wellnessrenegades. com and you can find out about me and my services and, and it's interesting because the one thing we didn't cover that I think is super important is technologies coming into the wellness community, whether we want it to or not. And so, um, really, you know, SEO has been here for a while, but most people don't know that Google business profiles are free, and that if you're spending a lot of time on your social media campaigns on Instagram, on TikTok, on Facebook, on LinkedIn, and you're not getting conversion, um, switcher, your, your, your, structure over to Google business profiles. And if you need any help with that, you can reach out to me, um, mention you. You heard me on this podcast and I'll give you a additional special that's not on my website, but I just feel like people are spending way too much on activities on social media that aren't producing. So it's a waste of time and Google business, uh, is the way to go because it's free. And 96 percent of the internet uses Google and Google Maps now is tied into SEO beyond what you could ever imagine. So when you can come up towards the top of a search, you're going to find that your numbers, I live in a town of 1200 and with my Google business profile strategies, I got 45 calls last month.

That is impressive and preach it. I think social media is over pushed as far as the way to build a successful business across the board, regardless of your business. So I really appreciate that final message. Thank you.

Yeah. Yeah. I just, Jess, I want to say thank you. I really appreciate being here. I want to thank the listeners that made it from the beginning and to the end of the pod and, uh, really believe that, um, the healthcare system in the U S is starting to crumble. Um, so your services are so needed and whether you take insurance or your cash pay only, you are needed in this community. Yeah.

Beautiful. Thank you so much for your time, Jason. It was an awesome conversation. I'm very grateful. We've had it.

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Well, thank you so much for spending your time with us today. I know time is precious and I'm truly grateful you chose to share yours with us. So before we go, I want to share three key insights from our conversation that you can take with you. Number one, create a business that aligns with your life's vision. As Jason shared, it's essential to build a practice that supports both your personal and your professional goals so you can live life on your terms. Number two, develop a healthy relationship with money. Financial well being is truly part of holistic wellness. And as Jason emphasizes, understanding your finances brings stability and reduces stress in both business and in life. and explore alternative models for your practice. Whether it's a community donation model or a boutique experience, finding the right structure for you can prevent burnout and bring deeper fulfillment to your practice. And of course, a special thank you to Jason Stein for sharing his wisdom and experiences with us today. If the conversation resonated with you, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an opportunity to grow, learn, and build a more purpose driven practice. Now you can find Jason at wellnessrenegades. com to continue learning from his amazing work. Until next time, be well, my friend.