I would like to acknowledge the Dharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.

[00:00:39] Trisha: Hi there, everyone. I'm Trisha Carter, an organizational psychologist and explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives. especially different cultural perspectives, and why sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness, the shifts in thinking.

[00:01:00] Trisha: As those of you who have listened to some of our earlier episodes will be aware, cultural intelligence, CQ, the capability to be effective in situations of diversity, is made up of four areas. Motivational, the drive. Cognitive, the knowledge. Metacognitive, the strategy. And behavioral, the action. And all four of these help us operate effectively when we're in situations of diversity.

[00:01:26] Trisha: In this podcast, we focus more on the metacognitive aspect. So we're thinking about our thinking. Today's guest is a friend and colleague. Jennifer and I were both part of the inaugural CQ fellows group, working and learning together in 2023. I was very much in awe of Jennifer and the work she's done and continues to do.

[00:01:47] Trisha: She's the CEO and founder of Above Difference, an award winning UK consultancy who work with people in the public and community sectors to bring about change in people and organisations. And they do that by increasing the skills of cultural intelligence and inclusive leadership. Jennifer's background leading community and government organizations prepares her well for delivering these changed focused strategic interventions across England.

[00:02:15] Trisha: I am really proud to welcome you to the podcast. Jennifer Izekor

[00:02:20] Jennifer: Thank you, Trisha. It's an absolute pleasure to be here, it really is. I've been looking forward to this, eh,

[00:02:25] Jennifer: because

[00:02:25] Trisha: Oh, thank you. It's been hard to get a time because you're so busy,

[00:02:30] Jennifer: Yeah,

[00:02:31] Trisha: but that's a good thing. It's a good thing that, that your services are in so much demand. We're all very aware, even on this side of the world, of the challenges that have been impacting communities across the UK. And I look forward to hearing your insights about how your work speaks to these challenges.

[00:02:49] Trisha: But first, we want to ask the questions. We ask all our guests. So Jennifer, what is a culture, other than the culture you grew up in, that you have learned to love and appreciate?

[00:02:59] Jennifer: wow, that's such a great question, Trisha, and, I had a really interesting upbringing anyway, because I was born in the UK and I was in the UK till I was about seven years old, , and for a whole number of reasons I lived with a lot of, British families. So, I had a lot of that meant that was the culture I was, I grew up in until I was about seven.

[00:03:17] Jennifer: And then my parents returned to Nigeria. And, um, I then spent the rest of my sort of early years and well into my early twenties in Nigeria. And so I had this amazing opportunity, even though sometimes it didn't feel amazing, to cross those two cultures and to love both of them. And I think today that's very much formed a part of who I am.

[00:03:39] Jennifer: Loving, You know, the British culture. I'm a British citizen. I've come back, you know, I came back in my early 20s. I've lived and worked here ever since I had my daughter here, but my Nigerian heritage is also very, very powerful part of whom I am. And, you know, Nigeria is a very diverse community. So I'm from a place called Benin, Benin City, and that heritage in particular, that culture is still very much a huge part of my makeup.

[00:04:01] Jennifer: So I feel incredibly blessed to, you know, have these mixed of cultures that make up who I am.

[00:04:07] Trisha: That's wonderful. Yeah. Good on your parents for, you know, enabling that to happen.

[00:04:12] Jennifer: Some of it wasn't, you know, growing up was because I was in, you know, there were a whole number of reasons why a lot of kids born in my time to, you know, immigrant parents from West Africa, Nigeria, who were in the UK at the time. Uh, the term is farmed out. We were farmed out to foster carers,

[00:04:30] Jennifer: look after us.

[00:04:31] Jennifer: Parents often had, our parents often had two, three jobs and just couldn't actually fit in, um, childcare as well. And, and some of that was positive. Some of it was, wasn't great. Um, and there are lots of, you know, lots of stories coming out now about how, you know, what that was like. But, you know, I do take away from it that, that, you know, that, that sort of bridge it's, it's, you know, it's given me in my life in terms of just being You know,

[00:04:54] Trisha: Yeah.

[00:04:54] Jennifer: a lot from what the

[00:04:55] Trisha: And so maybe that this will influence the next question. Can you tell me about a time when you experienced the shift, you know, when you suddenly became aware of a different perspective?

[00:05:10] Jennifer: Yeah, do you know, um, I could tell you about Nigeria and the UK, but

[00:05:14] Jennifer: I think the one I often talk about is, is the generational shift and culture. You know, and I, I am blessed to have an amazing 28 year old daughter, um, who I, you know, who I had here and, and she's just the most phenomenal person in the world.

[00:05:28] Jennifer: But I, um, when I did the cultural intelligence program and, and with, you know, our friend Dave Livermore, I remember just slowly beginning to understand how different my daughter's culture was from mine, you know, and, and actually, even though, you know, her, you know, her father's Nigerian as well, you know, she is, but she was born and bred in the UK and has spent most of her life here.

[00:05:48] Jennifer: And she's a millennial. And without putting that, you know, millennials all millennials into boxes, you know, I slowly began to understand that actually. There was a real cultural shift that needed to happen in my head, in terms of my because having grown up, you know, and I hope your listeners will be aware, for instance, of some of the terminologies that we all love with cultural intelligence.

[00:06:12] Jennifer: I grew up in a very high power distance culture, and that, as you know, is, you know, in terms of our relationship with authority, as I often say in my training programs. You know, when I, when my father told me to jump -knowing there'd be hell to pay if it didn't. Um, and then I've raised my daughter in a low power distance, and and it would be my peril if I started asking her to jump, you know, there'd be all sorts of debates, which probably wouldn't end in my favor.

[00:06:34] Jennifer: So, so, um, you know, and, and we, we debate things and we have discussions about things and I grew up not talking back to my parents, but just accepting what I was told. And so I realized that as I, as I parented aware of cultural intelligence that, um, I needed to see her as having a very different culture from mine.

[00:06:54] Jennifer: And I needed to understand how I adapted my parenting, cultural intelligence. to understand that actually I needed to work across those -to view her from the perspective of my culture, um, and my cultural values and preferences. And that's becoming increasingly important as I work in the public sector because that generational dynamic is happening everywhere now. Really I think it's one of the most hidden, diversities that we're not talking about, you know, um, on a whole number of levels. So I think there's a real shift that we need to make in terms of generational diversity

[00:07:26] Trisha: And not to label them all, in the same way as you describe.

[00:07:30] Jennifer: Absolutely. And, and that's a problem because, you know, time and time again, I hear older managers, you know, the baby boomers like me and, people like that go, Oh, you know, they're just, they're lazy. They're not committed. they don't show the same level of commitment.

[00:07:43] Jennifer: They talk back. They want that, you know, they don't want to work as long hours as we work. And, and, and you understand that, that that's a culture thing. And I say to them, well, hold on, that's the, that's the, You know, that's a culture thing. They're a different culture and you need to think, you adapt your culture, your thinking when you're working with that age group.

[00:07:59] Trisha: They're valuing different things. And many times when it is something they value, they will work, you know, significant hours. So, yeah.

[00:08:07] Jennifer: but it's understanding what, what are the dynamics, um, and, paradigms that shape the things that they value. And, and I think that that's been, and I'm not seeing that as a negative and that's been a journey for me with, in my parenting. And I think it's a journey that many of us who are working now need to take as we look at, you know, younger generation really admire and value what they bring to the table, even if it's different.

[00:08:30] Trisha: Yes, yes, absolutely. As with all differences. I can see why you're thinking of the community as you think of that, because your career prior to founding Above Difference spanned a number of different community and government organizations, but always . The organizations that were facing the community, providing services to youth, to children, and then your work with the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

[00:08:53] Trisha: And I can imagine the challenges in all those pieces of work, but I'd also love to hear what the joys were. So tell us a little bit about it.

[00:09:00] Jennifer: Oh, I love people. I just, I, I love, I love people and, and, you know, I, I feel incredibly blessed that in all the roles that I've had, whether I sort of intentionally gravitated towards that and, you know, in, in, in the later part of my career, yeah, much more intentionally. The question I've always asked myself is how do I add value to people?

[00:09:21] Jennifer: You know, it's in the name of my organization Above Difference. How do I make a difference? I think is what's always sort of, It's what's driven me. You know, when I came back into the country as a, you know, my early twenties, having grown up in a culture where young people's voices were not heard, I wanted to make young people's voices heard.

[00:09:37] Jennifer: And I, I had the opportunity then to work with a wonderful organization called center point. Doing some amazing work with homeless young people, you know, Princess Diana was its patron

[00:09:46] Jennifer: and the joy of engaging with so many diverse young people and hearing their voices and being part of an organization then that was passionate about making them heard, you know, and, and that for me has always, you know, seeing young people make that when you equip them with the right skills, the right support, seeing them make that transformation themselves, once they're empowered to do it, that's, that's always been.

[00:10:10] Jennifer: A huge, huge joy for me.

[00:10:12] Jennifer: I think, you know, I got to do that on a much larger scale as I, as I rose up through leadership. I've always been passionate about creating services, you know, putting things together, creating new ways of doing things. Um, I, I got to lead a lot of, you know, initiatives when I was a director for children and learners across London, there was something called Young London Matters, which again had young people's voices at the heart of it.

[00:10:35] Jennifer: And, um, and when I was a chief executive of something called the Connections Partnership. We were one of the first to have a youth board, and, and that was about making, and, and one of the decisions I took at the time was to give the youth board as much authority over recruitment decisions as the adult board, which was controversial at the

[00:10:53] Jennifer: time.

[00:10:53] Jennifer: And

[00:10:54] Trisha: Yes. I bet.

[00:10:55] Jennifer: Led to some really interesting thing. But, but those are the things that bring me joy. And, and now work that I do now I always talk about the light bulb moment, and, and when you bring knowledge to people and you bring information to people you open people's eyes to, you know, a model like cultural intelligence.

[00:11:12] Jennifer: And you see these light bulb moments go on

[00:11:14] Jennifer: But just suddenly go get it now. And that's, you know, I live for those. That's, that's what brings me incredible joy.

[00:11:22] Trisha: absolutely. And, and helping people to get to those light bulb moments is really, you know, what I'm, I'm trying to unpack in this podcast and helping people to have their own light bulb moments, because sometimes we don't, we don't do that for ourselves. I'm thinking about you setting up your business, and that was obviously a bit of a shift from working for other organisations.

[00:11:43] Trisha: So what was the light bulb that went off that said, I've got to do this for myself?

[00:11:47] Jennifer: Well, my last role, um, was as, as you mentioned briefly, as a commissioner for the independent police complaints commission. And, and there was some really challenging circumstances that arose for me in that role, personally, and, and, and, you know, that's well documented. And, and, you know, I, I've always believed that when things happen to you, You, you, you can't always choose what happens to you, but you can in many cases choose how you respond to it.

[00:12:13] Jennifer: And for me, there was a moment of choice then in terms of what this had happened. It felt incredibly unfair. It was difficult for a long time. One of the things I never forgot was the amazing people I had met along the way

[00:12:26] Jennifer: in that job. Now, many of whom were in the police and, and were senior leaders who just kept saying to me, you know, I want to get this right, this inclusion thing, but how do i do it

[00:12:38] Jennifer: You know, and I understood that even for those who, you know, had been on the other side of what had happened to me, there was a fear and a confusion and a, and a kind of defensiveness and a, and a sense of, if I don't get it, the best way to do is attack it in many ways.

[00:12:53] Jennifer: that seems to inform some of the actions and behavior. and I was challenged by that concept, but we're human. We are ultimately all human. We, we have differences and these differences are incredibly important, but we are human. And so even in choosing the name Above Difference, that was the challenge in my head.

[00:13:12] Jennifer: Where is that space above difference? Where is that space where we value, we respect, we celebrate, we recognize our differences. But we find a place where we come together and we think about how we make the world a better place and how we celebrate each other and how we love each other and looking at my own experience and the pain it could have caused in my life. And knowing so many other people who have been broken, totally broken, by such experiences.

[00:13:41] Jennifer: And you see the, the thing about things like that, where you have, you know, accusations, or you have these long debates, or long, is that there are no winners.

[00:13:50] Jennifer: They're absolutely no winner, they're only ever losers, they're only ever broken people, you know, whatever happens

[00:13:57] Jennifer: and, and I just thought there has to be a better way, there just has to be a better way. There has to be a way where we find bridges to walk over and even if we are on separate sides, we find places where we meet in the middle. And cultural intelligence, I got to do the certification with David during the time I was going, going through some of that.

[00:14:18] Jennifer: And I remember sitting

[00:14:19] Jennifer: there going. Okay, this could be the missing link, could be one of the ways, this could be something that helps people see difference differently. This could explain a lot of things, because often some of these difficulties arise when you hear You know, they're all obviously the very nasty intentional stuff, but a lot of it, and I find this all the time in my work is misunderstandings about why we do things the way we do them

[00:14:43] Jennifer: and, and, and those misunderstandings can sometimes make mean that we're looking at things from different perspectives and we're making these judgments and making these assumptions.

[00:14:52] Jennifer: So my challenge with the shift that happened in my mind was, there's a place above difference where we can find a way to work together you know, there's a place where we can see our humanity. Recognize the importance of our differences to us, recognize the different perspectives that gives us, and bring that diversity together in a way that actually produces the most amazing results, projects, outcomes, benefits for communities.

[00:15:17] Jennifer: And that, that was a challenge I gave myself and that was sort of in setting off above difference, that's what I wanted to do. And initially, cultural intelligence was my first sort of port of call, you know, in many ways, but at the same time, you know, I'd always been very fascinated by the concept of leadership, what it meant, how, you know, and cultural intelligence for me.

[00:15:36] Jennifer: And it still is. I love CQ as a tool, but as you and I know, it came very much from the business world. And I think when it, when it comes into the inclusion arena. It only works well when you actually align it with inclusive leadership, because actually what inclusive leadership gives you is the vision.

[00:15:53] Jennifer: The commitment, the will to lead in a particular way, what cultural intelligence then gives an inclusive leader is a powerful tool to use.

[00:16:02] Jennifer: then I challenged myself on, okay, but then how do you equip people to lead change? Because actually change doesn't just happen because we want it to.

[00:16:09] Jennifer: You know, as change leadership became part of that and drawing on models like Kotter and then I'm a John Maxwell coach and you know, I love John Maxwell love his work on value based leadership. And so all of those things came together and that's and you know and that's very much what informs

[00:16:25] Jennifer: all the work we're do in Above Difference.

[00:16:27] Trisha: Yeah, that's wonderful. It's, it's a slightly different perspective to, and perhaps there is no traditional DEI, and I know in the UK it's more EDI, but in many ways what is often done is more people focusing on an identity or focusing on a specific, You know, sort of, um, disadvantaged group in the hope that, you know, by working with them, uh, their roles or their positions can be enhanced, but instead you're moving above that and recognizing, you know, that we are all different, and indifferent in many different ways.

[00:17:02] Trisha: And we can, we can work together, in a way that it takes us towards, is it sort of, a sense of like, The goals or the purpose, you know, what, what do you focus on that sits above the differences at the common humanity.

[00:17:17] Jennifer: I mean, don't get me wrong, you know, you know, this and I've been challenged on this quite a lot by people from all parts of the, you know, the debate, does this mean you're not focusing, you're not recognizing the very significant disadvantages that some groups face above others, and absolutely not,

[00:17:35] Jennifer: you know, as a black woman I can hardly ignore them. And as one who's personally experienced what that can look like in its ugliest way. no, but I do have a saying, and it's something I passionately believe is that inclusion has to be about everyone or it becomes about no one. And, and that's not saying that we have to treat everybody the same because we don't, but if you look at an organizational context, right?

[00:17:58] Jennifer: Um, which is why we never go into an organization just working on one specific issue. If you just focus on one issue in an organization, what happens is you have all these other people around the table who are entrenched who are asking the question, yeah, but what about me? You know, what about me? Where do I fit in?

[00:18:15] Jennifer: You know, and actually whatever policies you may have at the top of the organization and no matter how much you love the EDI agenda and how many people you're going to recruit, you're then going to send them back into teams.

[00:18:26] Jennifer: Where there are lots of people who are going, well, I don't.

[00:18:28] Jennifer: believe in this. this.

[00:18:28] Jennifer: is just a woke agenda. So I think, you know, for us, what we try and say in AboveDif, my focus is, how do I equip leaders to be inclusive leaders? Because you know what? The other thing I say is this. If you, if you are leading well, then you will lead all your people well. It doesn't matter what color they are.

[00:18:47] Jennifer: And if you're not leading all your people well, then you're simply not leading well. So the debate I want to have with organizations is let's talk about how we equip your leaders to lead all their people well. And if they're going to lead all their people well, then they have to be able to flex across cultures, so they'll need cultural intelligence.

[00:19:06] Jennifer: They've got to understand what it means to have a vision, for what good could look like, what the world could look like. You know, I love Simon Sinek, he says, imagine a world where, you know, imagine a world, And if you imagine a world where everybody came to work, everybody felt valued, everybody felt, you know, that their work was recognized, everybody felt that they had the opportunity to achieve their full potential.

[00:19:27] Jennifer: Now that's the kind of organization we all want to work and, and run.

[00:19:31] Trisha: Absolutely, yeah.

[00:19:32] Jennifer: And, and so my, my focus in Above Difference is equipping leaders to be those leaders who can lead all their people well with the skills and tools they need. It's equipping organizations to challenge themselves on what does it mean to equip all our leaders, all our managers to lead all our people well, and equipping organizations and leaders to understand the power that lies behind the culture.

[00:19:57] Jennifer: Because actually the culture is everything, you know, culture defines how people feel valued, culture defines people's experiences and that's, that's where our focus lies.

[00:20:06] Trisha: And, and often when we think about individuals, we can think about how to help the individual to shift. And then when you're thinking we need to shift this whole culture towards having a focus that is inclusive, and that can be so, so much more challenging. So when you've been working with organizations, what do you think needs to happen before an organization

[00:20:29] Trisha: can shift?

[00:20:30] Jennifer: Well, the first thing is that, you know, and I say this to leaders is leaders need to understand how much responsibility they have for the culture and I'm constantly amazed at the fact that that very basic principle isn't known by a lot of people. Okay. You know what I would say when I was leading and managing, I didn't know it either.

[00:20:48] Jennifer: You know, um, and, and one of the things I think is really unfortunate, and I don't know how much this is just a UK problem, but I suspect it's not, is because I've heard it spoken about by some of the authorities in the field, is that people are often promoted into leadership and management positions because they're good at the technical aspects of their job, but what they're not often taught to do is to manage and lead people well. there's almost an assumption, I call it the buy one, get one free approach, you know, you're a leader. You're going to be an inclusive leader kind of doesn't work that way. So, so in our model, one of the first things we do is just get leaders understanding you, you are, you're responsible for the culture, two of my heroes, when it comes to that in terms of knowledge.

[00:21:27] Jennifer: I love it. What Edgar Schein says, you know, he says, you know, the only thing of real importance that leaders do is create a managed culture. And if you don't do it, it will happen around you irrespective. And I think I'm paraphrasing now, whether you know it or not, but that's it. So. And then, you know, John Maxwell says, I use a clip that he does on culture, you know, and he says, the culture of an organization can never be better than the behavior of its leaders, period.

[00:21:51] Jennifer: And so for us, the first challenge is getting leaders to understand that they are the culture. And if they're creating a culture where people don't feel valued, they're allowing the pressure of work to drive the way they interact with people. One of my biggest concerns at the moment is how since COVID people don't have. one to one conversations anymore. They don't engage with people. It's just a culture now of just online meetings, nine to 10, 10 to 11, 11 to 12, 12 to one, 20 minute break, grab a sandwich. So there's no, if you create that kind of culture, then you're going to get a culture where people are not going to feel

[00:22:26] Jennifer: valued

[00:22:27] Jennifer: and valued people.

[00:22:28] Jennifer: And this for me is really important when it comes to, organizations that are community facing. You cannot ask people who do not feel valued,

[00:22:36] Jennifer: to value people.

[00:22:37] Trisha: absolutely.

[00:22:38] Jennifer: It's not going to happen,

[00:22:39] Jennifer: right, you know?

[00:22:41] Trisha: they are the people who've got to be out there, you know, really

[00:22:44] Trisha: caring, showing, showing love, you know, and

[00:22:47] Jennifer: absolutely.

[00:22:48] Trisha: if they're not valued, they can't

[00:22:49] Trisha: do that. Yeah.

[00:22:50] Jennifer: Yeah. So if they're, if they're not feeling value, so I think, you know, just to finish your question, culture is the first thing.

[00:22:55] Jennifer: And then when you, when people understand that they've got to build and they've got to facilitate this culture, then it's about giving them the tools to do it. And of course, one of the most powerful tools I'll keep saying is cultural intelligence, but that allows you to do that is value based leadership, intentional, inclusive leadership.

[00:23:12] Jennifer: But then you've got to get people recognizing this is a big challenge. That actually you've got to change what is to what you want it to be,

[00:23:18] Trisha: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

[00:23:20] Jennifer: you know, and if, and I always say this is the turning the tank a

[00:23:23] Jennifer: bit,

[00:23:23] Jennifer: you know, and, and as you know, from a lot of that school of thought that when you want to change an organization, it is a tanker turning exercise and actually got to do that well, or people will just fly off.

[00:23:34] Jennifer: And often what we don't do, don't do that well. So we go back and go, right, here's this lovely new EDI recruitment policy. We are now to recruit in a diverse kind of way. And we're going to make these kinds of decisions and. You know, um, you know, I'm full of sayings today, but as, uh, I don't know who said this one, I think it might be John Maxwell.

[00:23:52] Jennifer: If you think you're leading and no one's following you, you're simply taking a walk.

[00:23:55] Trisha: hmm. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I think about, when leaders are in that, inclusive, culturally intelligent way of working, there's a lot of almost that, that using that metacognition that they have to be thinking about what they're doing, that, that, you know, they, they might get to a point, um, in, in a recent podcast, I was talking to, uh, somebody who had been a, um, professional ball player in the U S and we were talking about how you build.

[00:24:24] Trisha: skills in sport. And he was talking about practice, practice, practice, that you hit the ball over and over again. And I think you do get to a point when you have, you know, practiced your inclusive leadership that it does become intuitive and innate. But so often, you know, if you're dealing with somebody who's different to you, you need to be thinking about that person.

[00:24:44] Trisha: You need to be Not assuming that they're going to think like you do, that they're going to want what you want. And so you always need to be in that process of discovery and understanding and noticing. And yeah, I think it's getting people to sort of take that, that balcony perspective and take that walk and look at things, um, that is, that is a beginning point of

[00:25:05] Trisha: being able to do that.

[00:25:07] Jennifer: Yeah. but understanding why, you know, and, and, what, why, you know, one of the questions I often ask people is the one, you Simon Sinek says everything starts with why. You know, and, and getting leaders, you know, I spend a lot of time when I'm doing this, getting leaders to think about what's your, why?

[00:25:23] Jennifer: you know, why do you want, why is it important?

[00:25:26] Jennifer: Because I think the challenge because we're human and especially in a world now where we all feel under incredible

[00:25:32] Jennifer: pressure, whether it's the economic crisis, whether it's stuff going on, you know, internationally, that's just, you know, the post trauma of, COVID, you know, people are

[00:25:41] Jennifer: worn down. You know that that.

[00:25:43] Jennifer: People are just literally in survival mode. And so when you're then going along and going, well, you've got to care about that. You've got to figure out how the 20 people in your team, what all their different cultural values are. You've got to figure out how you adapt your behavior to each and every one of these in order to create.

[00:25:59] Jennifer: There is a,

[00:26:00] Jennifer: people are fatigued and, and, and unless you make that make sense, you know, to someone that there's only so much you can do of it. And I think we've got enough scientific evidence, you know, enough, sorry, enough research that tells us that when you, um, when you are leading an inclusive team, well, and actually as, as our friend Dave says, leveraging that diversity effectively, then you're going to get better

[00:26:22] Jennifer: results.

[00:26:23] Jennifer: your, outcomes are going to be better. Your profitability is going to be better. You, your team morale is going to be better. So, so getting, helping leaders to see, A, understand what their vision is. For whatever it is they're doing and then understand how actually creating an inclusive culture where they're able to leverage the best out of everyone is actually going to help them get there.

[00:26:47] Jennifer: I think then provides a sort of motivation to leaders as

[00:26:50] Jennifer: opposed to let's just do it out of the goodness of our hearts, you know, because I'm sorry, I think we're living in a world where none of us, wherever we come from, are able to just do that. And I said, I think sometimes that that link is lacking, you know, it's missing.

[00:27:04] Jennifer: I was talking to a board. I'll give you a quick example who had a, you know, a particular group within the entire organization who constituted probably about 40 percent of their organization. Who, you know, the staff survey told them they weren't happy. They didn't feel valued. They didn't feel respected.

[00:27:21] Jennifer: They didn't feel that their needs were being met. And so there were ongoing debates at a board level about the EDI and how we do this and how we do that. The question I had for them is, let me get this right, 40 percent of your organization isn't, you're not optimizing it because they don't feel valued.

[00:27:38] Jennifer: So you are trying to achieve 100 percent of your outputs with 60 percent of your, resources effective. Because exactly 40 percent of your, 40 percent of your human resources is not working for you. Now, I'm sorry, that's not an EDI issue. That's a whole leadership performance issue.

[00:27:56] Jennifer: How are you ever, because even the same, in the same conversation, you're telling me how stressed you all are.

[00:28:01] Jennifer: Well, I'm not surprised. You've got 100 percent of human resources and you're only operating effectively with 60 percent of it. That doesn't add

[00:28:10] Jennifer: up. So I think we've got to get people not just seeing this as, I mean, it is a nice to do. but unfortunately as humans, we're not always nice to each other as a, you know, recent headline show.

[00:28:22] Jennifer: it is a great thing to do. It's the world we should live in, but there's really good business, financial, moral, emotional reasons why

[00:28:31] Jennifer: it just makes sense for us to find ways of engaging better with each other.

[00:28:35] Trisha: Absolutely, And we could, we could spend an entire episode talking about that one, but that would be more focusing on, on our drive. Um, I believe that it's coming up to your fifth birthday. Above Difference's

[00:28:49] Trisha: 5th birthday, or have you

[00:28:50] Jennifer: Oh, no, we've had it. In fact, we celebrate it. We're now in our sixth

[00:28:54] Jennifer: year.

[00:28:55] Jennifer: So yeah, we had a big, we had a big five year celebration last year. And we're, yeah, we're operating in our sixth year

[00:29:01] Jennifer: now, which

[00:29:01] Trisha: okay, excellent. Well, congratulations on that.

[00:29:04] Trisha: You have a big event coming up. Um, it's bringing people together from lots of different organizations.

[00:29:10] Trisha: Can you tell us a bit about it?

[00:29:12] Jennifer: Oh, I'm so excited about this. So, um, I, I'm, I'm one who keeps evolving things and I've recently renamed our program, transforming cultures, changing behaviors and engaging diverse communities with cultural intelligence. It's a mouthful and that means nobody can make an acronym out of it. But, but, um, and so two things excite me about it.

[00:29:33] Jennifer: One, we've been using this model very successfully in a lot of organizations and seeing real shifts among leaders. And I'm really keen to share some of that. But also, um, I get to host Dave, uh, who's in London, uh, to launch the updated, uh, you just got a copy

[00:29:49] Jennifer: of

[00:29:49] Jennifer: his book. I'm still buying a copy of,

[00:29:52] Jennifer: uh, leading, there you go, the real secret to success, leading with cultural intelligence, the real secret to success, quick book club for, uh, club for Dave.

[00:30:00] Jennifer: Um, he is just amazing, you know, in bringing together the CQ fellows and. the work he's done in cultural intelligence. So, um, having him beside me at this event is just like a dream come true. And the opportunity to have, you know, people in the public sector in, in, in the UK here directly from the horses mouth, you know, when it comes to cultural intelligence.

[00:30:25] Jennifer: I think was not was something that I just couldn't pass up. So I'm really excited about it. It's nerve wracking because it's the first big public event we've done and I still think people are now just going, I get loads of people going, Yeah, but can't we just watch it online. No come! Because it's just so exciting to be together.. Come, come join

[00:30:45] Jennifer: us. And, And, I know we've not called it a conference. We've called it a learning event because I, you know, and it's just Dave and I, so I haven't got a whole array of speakers, but what we're going to do is just get people sitting around tables, present them with tools, get them teasing, doing what I call flexing their CQ muscles, um, and, and, and talking to each other and yeah, I'm hoping it's going to be loads of fun.

[00:31:07] Jennifer: So if you haven't booked your place on it, please, please, please do book now. I can't wait to see you. I'm really excited about it.

[00:31:13] Jennifer: Yeah.

[00:31:13] Trisha: And we'll put a note in the show notes that people can link to,

[00:31:16] Trisha: but for the people who never read the show notes, where should

[00:31:20] Trisha: they go to above

[00:31:21] Trisha: difference website?

[00:31:22] Jennifer: Yes. Go to www. abovedifference. com and there's information about the event on there. I'm really sorry we haven't quite figured out and we're holding it in this lovely sort of center based in the community in East London. So you get a real flavor of East

[00:31:35] Jennifer: London,

[00:31:35] Jennifer: um, which is as diverse as it gets. Um, but, um, we haven't figured out how to sort of have it online at the same time.

[00:31:43] Jennifer: So forgive me for those who are listening to this internationally and would have wanted to dial in, but we'll see if we can capture stuff that we put on the, On the website, but yeah, it's, it's the first of many events like this that I want to hold because quite apart from the clients I get, and it is a real privilege to get to work with clients and the police and in the health sector and education and others.

[00:32:04] Jennifer: I just think we have to spread the message that there is a different way, you know, build on, but we've, the world is changing so fast and we all need each other so desperately, so we've got to find different ways of being with each other.

[00:32:17] Trisha: Yeah. I think there's also real value in bringing those different groups together. you know, who all have a similar focus, but it's from different angles. And so having them around a table and sharing the joys and the challenges is, is, you know, it's a

[00:32:31] Trisha: fruitful thing to do.

[00:32:33] Jennifer: Oh, Trisha, that is such a powerful point because one of the things that has really surprised me, especially when I've had weeks where I've been with the police in the same week and the NHS, is that I could literally have the same people in the same room in terms of the topics we're talking

[00:32:49] Jennifer: about and the challenges people have

[00:32:52] Jennifer: you know, two weeks ago I had a situation like that and I, and in, in, in both sessions, one of the really powerful things that came up was just how and when do you challenge negative behavior?

[00:33:05] Trisha: Oh, good one.

[00:33:06] Jennifer: And it was a powerful

[00:33:08] Jennifer: discussion because people had such diverse views about it. You know, and, and, and it was, it was almost sort of, it felt really weird having the same discussion in two different

[00:33:16] Jennifer: settings. But the perspectives were so, the diversity of the perspectives were very similar. You know, those perspectives that said, you know, so, so the scenario we're talking about is you're in a team or you're on a ward or you're in a team meeting and something happens, you know, somebody says something misogynist, racist, it's homophobic is one of the X or the ist things. Now what do you do?

[00:33:38] Jennifer: Especially if that's someone, as a leader, you know quite well, you know, what do you do? Do you, do you, you know, and how does what you do impact not just A, on the person, which is a challenge I throw back at people, the person who may or may not have said whatever they said, The person who might be in the, on the other end of it, the victim of a bitter, the receiving end of it. And then the culture of the team? Because that's a big one. Because if you don't deal with it, well, what you're doing as a leader is saying, actually, this is okay.

[00:34:09] Jennifer: And you know, that powerful statement that, you know, the culture of any team is shaped by the worst behavior. The leader we tolerate by Grunet and Walker.

[00:34:16] Jennifer: So it's a real thorny issue. And underneath all of that is, The fact that there's a natural, especially in the UK, we're not good at confrontations.

[00:34:25] Jennifer: We don't really do confrontations in the UK we kind of prefer to to just move it away from us. So there's that feeding it, which is a cultural issue. You know, there are all the different cultural dimensions in it in terms of how people deal with that. But this is such a powerful, powerful issue when it comes to some of the issues around behavior, bullying, you know, misogynies, you know, cultures that we've heard across all of the public sector. And so getting to lead people through that debate and seeing people begin to work out ways using the tools that they've got to find better ways of doing it, I think for me is just one of the most amazing moments. I really feel incredibly privileged to get to do this.

[00:35:09] Trisha: And I can imagine some of the conversations and some of the people saying, you know, you need to do it in private or you need to do it, you know, and yeah, and

[00:35:17] Trisha: yet we can all see the risks in doing it like that

[00:35:20] Trisha: because of, because of the impact on culture. And I think maybe that's one of the things that I've been thinking about since, um, since the episode, uh, with Brian speaking about hitting the ball and practicing it over and over, we need to practice that moment when somebody says something, um, because that will happen and it will happen again.

[00:35:40] Trisha: And being able to practice just a response that we're comfortable. You know, expressing, um, you know, that this isn't something we accept.

[00:35:50] Jennifer: Yeah.

[00:35:51] Trisha: something that we are condoning or agreeing with. So Yeah.

[00:35:54] Jennifer: I've ..up on this wonderful model by, you know, I know it's talking about Simon Sinek love and completely girl fanning on him at the moment because he just comes up great stuff. And he talks about the FBI model you know the feelings the behavior the impact. And when you do have that one on one conversation with people, you know, starting off with that this is really difficult conversation but I've got to have it with You You know, it feels really difficult and then talking about the behavior and then getting people to understand the impact because often what we've heard in a lot of reports, and I don't know if it's the same for you when some of these things have come up in your neck of the woods. It's like, well, it was banter. It was just chat. It was, It was, harmless. it was just a joke. Of course they're not racist. Of course they're not sexist. Of course they're not. It was just, come on now, can't we take a joke? And then it comes, if you're looking at things like sexism or generational things, oh, it's this new generation, you know, they're just too delicate or, oh God, it's the woke agenda.

[00:36:47] Jennifer: Come on now. They didn't mean it that way. And actually, we do have to talk about the impact of those things. and I actually add on the redress because I'm saying to people, yeah, if you want to go and talk about it in private, yeah, but it has to come back into that same arena in which it happened. So either, And address it.

[00:37:05] Jennifer: so either you empower the person who did it to come back and go you know what I, I, you know, I realized in the last team meeting I said something I did something that actually wasn't very acceptable. I've had a conversation, and I apologize for the impact it had, or you as the leader, do something or you say something but what you can't do is just assume that everybody knows that you've addressed it, you know. So those conversations and conversations about role modeling as a leader, how you role model your own behaviors. If you're busy chatting negatively about the leaders above you, then you are creating a culture in your team of negativity. And for to really understand things like that, I find that really fascinating.

[00:37:45] Trisha: We had a high level leader here in Australia a few years ago, a leader of the defence force who, um, spoke to issues around, sexual harassment. And one of his phrases that I think has stuck really well is the standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

[00:38:03] Jennifer: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's walk past, sit past, you know, whatever it is, is, is that if you let it happen, then you've put it, And say nothing. then you accept it, but it is, it is recognizing that just because someone's a leader doesn't suddenly make them brave, confrontate, and, and people need the skills to do that.

[00:38:23] Jennifer: And, you know, a lot of people don't do this, not because they agree with what's been said or whatever, but sometimes the people who make those kind of jokes can be quite powerful characters in a culture. and some leaders are sitting there going, well, I don't want them to turn their attention on me just because I'm the leader manager doesn't make me that tough, you know, and so I, I think that's why I love to come at this, not from a kind of judgment or condemnation perspective, but actually saying, how do I equip you and equip your leaders with the tools to do that?

[00:38:52] Jennifer: And actually they're great. Tools out there, you know, really great tools out there to help us do this well.

[00:38:57] Trisha: fantastic. So if somebody wants to get in touch with you and access these training, is it LinkedIn

[00:39:03] Trisha: a good way to

[00:39:05] Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm, we're on LinkedIn as Above Difference and, and, and as myself as well. I have to say, I am not the world's greatest social media person. In fact, I have a real sort of issue with social, not issue as in condemning it, but I just don't always find it comfortable to be on it. But yes, LinkedIn, we have a website www. abovedifference. com, um, and I would love to hear from anyone out there who, um, you know, would, would love to talk to us about the work we do. I'm, I'm incredibly proud of what we do and how we do it and the impact that I'm seeing it having in the organizations we work with. We're not fans of doing one off training courses. I never do that with any organization. I just don't feel that adds value. Uh, for me, it's always about, you know, walking a journey with that organization that's tailored to their needs. And so, yeah, so absolutely.

[00:39:51] Trisha: sounds wonderful. So we have a few closing questions.

[00:39:55] Trisha: What advice would you give someone who's going to follow in your footsteps and work to make change happen?

[00:40:01] Jennifer: Ooh, such a great question. I think have a vision for what you think the world could look like. That's important. You know, I think if we look at what is, sometimes it can be very discouraging. You know, but to look above and beyond that and go that, you know, every day you turn on the news and they're just awful things happening, but there is also just such beautiful beauty in humanity.

[00:40:27] Jennifer: And I think, you know, having a vision for the potential of that, Um, if you want to be a change maker, that's because that's what keeps you going in the dark. That's where you're going when it doesn't make sense. That's, you know, so have a vision, um, be gentle on yourself. I think, you know, know that there's no perfect way of doing it you're going to get it wrong sometimes and fall flat on your face and. And, um, you know, and I've learned to, that sometimes you have to, it's okay to have a pity party occasionally, but as I always say to myself, you know, sometimes we, we throw ourselves a pity party, we bring out the banners, we have the drinks and then we go, right, okay, party over now, clear it up and

[00:41:07] Trisha: Back to

[00:41:07] Jennifer: let's get back to business.

[00:41:09] Jennifer: And you know, pity parties work.

[00:41:10] Jennifer: And, um, And keep going because I think if you are called and you know, um, you know, haven't mentioned here, but my faith is incredibly important to me and it's such a, you know, an integral part of everything I do.

[00:41:23] Jennifer: And I think if there is a calling in your heart for whatever reason to be a change maker.

[00:41:28] Jennifer: Believe that if you step out in faith, then the universe, whatever you call it, will begin to equip you with the things that you need to make that change happen.

[00:41:36] Trisha: That's lovely. And finally, as you look at your life, the people you've worked with, colleagues, clients, family and community, and as you look at the future, what are you hoping for?

[00:41:48] Jennifer: A world where we find love above difference.

[00:41:50] Jennifer: Yeah. And, I, you know, my daughter's 28 and I hope one day she starts a family too. And, and, and I think, I think on all levels, we've all got to work to leave the world a better place than the one we came in. Right now, I think there's a real danger that we might lose that battle.

[00:42:08] Jennifer: and recently I was speaking to one of my people I was working with the maternity services, and they were saying the birth rates going down because a lot of millennials are just choosing not to have children, not to bring children into the world right now because it just feels Such a difficult place.

[00:42:23] Jennifer: And so I think I hope that through the work that I do through the stuff that I bring, I hope that in some little way I contribute towards a better future.

[00:42:32] Jennifer: And I think if I, if I close my eyes, whenever I do, having done that and take my last breath, knowing that in some way I changed something,

[00:42:39] Jennifer: then I'll feel

[00:42:41] Jennifer: I've lived my life.

[00:42:42] Jennifer: Well,

[00:42:43] Trisha: That's lovely. Thank you so much, Jennifer. Really appreciate having you with us. And this has been a

[00:42:47] Trisha: wonderful chat. Thank you listeners. And I hope that you will follow us along so that you can be listening for the next episode of the shift.