Steve Palmer [00:00:01]:

All right, here we are. Lawyer Talk. They don't teach you that in law school series. We got Troy, our resident law student, at least for another year or so. I guess you'll still be a law student even after you graduate and waiting to take the bar. But, yes, for now. They don't teach you that in law school. And we kick around topics in the real world that we have to grapple with and tackle and deal with that maybe in law school.

Steve Palmer [00:00:23]:

It's sort of like the ivory tower approach.

Troy Hendrickson [00:00:25]:

Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:00:26]:

Today's sort of a hybrid, I think, because you were asking me. Well, I mean, you brought it up.

Troy Hendrickson [00:00:30]:

So I have a lot of friends who also clerk. Fellow clerks. They work at the public defender's office.

Steve Palmer [00:00:36]:

And by clerk, you mean, like interns?

Troy Hendrickson [00:00:38]:

Sort of. Yes, yes. So they work over there, my fellow law students. And they've been blowing up a lot of stuff on their social media. So we have the Common Pleas and Muni PD people. Most of them work for the Muni.

Steve Palmer [00:00:48]:

So Common Pleas court, municipal court, PDs, public defenders.

Troy Hendrickson [00:00:51]:

Yep. Common pleas, I guess, shut down ICE agents coming in, however they did that. And then the Muni has not. So then all the PDs people are saying, muni judges, you need to stop ice coming in the courtroom. That's been all over their feed. And I did reach out to one and talk to him about it, but I'm more just confused. Can they even do that? That's the big question that ICE baby.

Steve Palmer [00:01:16]:

This is the buzz. And I think there was a judge even in Minnesota who was indicted.

Troy Hendrickson [00:01:20]:

Yeah, I think it was Minnesota, Wisconsin. One of the.

Steve Palmer [00:01:22]:

Minnesota, Wisconsin that was actually charged with a crime. Because this judge knew that there were ICE agents waiting outside the courtroom. And instead of the normal routine, which would be deal with the hearing in front of this judge, I think it was a woman. Deal with this hearing in front of the judge and let the defendant just head out the back, the same door he came in. I think somehow the judge permitted the lawyer for the defendant to walk the defendant out the back way to avoid the ICE agents and arrest for immigration problems.

Troy Hendrickson [00:01:58]:

Yeah. It seemed like she took some extra steps in order to make sure that didn't happen.

Steve Palmer [00:02:03]:

Correct.

Troy Hendrickson [00:02:03]:

Right.

Steve Palmer [00:02:03]:

And just to put that in some sort of. Put that in perspective, like, we lawyers have a back door. You know, we get to go, like, a lot of times at our normal courthouse over here, you've been there. You can enter the main door of the courtroom, but you can also go out sort of the back to where the judge's offices are and where the bailiff's offices are. And lawyers typically have access to that area. And generally speaking, it would be a party foul for us to take a client back there. You know, it's like particularly a criminal client, you know, you wouldn't do that. And you know, typically lawyer, you know, the bar, they call it the bar because there's that bar that you have to pass through to get into the main area of the courtroom.

Steve Palmer [00:02:43]:

And you can pass through that bar if you're a witness going to testify or if you're accused going to sit at council table, but you don't get to go into the back. Generally there'd be a security problem. But this judge marshaled the guy or permitted the lawyer to take him out the back door, not under arrest, but to avoid detection. And that was a crime because, look, if ICE had a valid warrant for this individual and it's a federal warrant and the judge is doing things to assist or the lawyer is doing things to assist in our situation, this individual, this defendant, to avoid getting arrested, in other words, to continue to commit a crime or avoid a warrant, that's a problem. I mean, that's obstruction of justice. There's all sorts of ethical issues that emerge. I mean, it's an issue.

Troy Hendrickson [00:03:31]:

So one thing you're bringing up that's I had the discussion with my friend at the PDs with. You're saying if they have a warrant. I understand that, but what if they don't have a warrant? What if they're going off probable cause?

Steve Palmer [00:03:40]:

Well, if there's probable. So let's say I know that the police and this comes up, let's take it out of immigration because it's such a hotbed political topic. Let's take it out of that. I have this going on right now. I have a client who's got warrants for his arrest for unrelated crimes and he has to appear in a civil hearing. If he shows up for that civil hearing, he's going to get arrested right away. Right away. Now, let's say that I know this happens a lot where I go to court and the prosecutors say, look, cops are out there.

Steve Palmer [00:04:16]:

Your guy violated a protection order. We're going to file charges on him and they're going to arrest him today. Now, let's just say I take that information and I call up my client and say, ring a ling, a ling a ling. By the way, there's a warrant for your arrest. You should not come to court today. You should go hide. In fact, why don't you go hide at my office. Does anybody think that's a problem?

Troy Hendrickson [00:04:38]:

Meaning you? Yeah, I think there'd be some people concerned with that. Of course. Me, I gotta share space with them then. You know, we're taking up the same space at the office now.

Steve Palmer [00:04:45]:

And if I look at a judge and the judge says, Mr. Palmer, where's your client? I'm gonna say, well, I told. Let's just say I confess. And I said, well, look, I found out that police wanted to arrest him, so I just told him to go, like, who would think that's okay? Who would think that's okay? So let's take it back into the cauldron of politics and deal with it that way. There is this notion floating around amongst your friends and the public defenders. And look, it's not that I don't have empathy or sympathy for what's going on here. I get it. But we still took an oath that we have to follow the laws.

Steve Palmer [00:05:19]:

And there are things that I have to do that I don't like to do as an attorney. For instance, in Ohio, if I know that my client's got a prior record and the judge and the prosecutor have it wrong on the record, I'm supposed to correct them. So if the judge says, look, no prior record for DUIs, and I'm standing there, and I know full well that there is a prior conviction, I have to correct that, I can't just let that go. That's an ethical problem. So do I like it? Is it in my client's best interest? No. But that's the rules. And those are the rules that I swore to follow, as unpleasant as it may be. And look, just because we may not like the immigration action that the federal government has taken here, if it is true that somebody is unlawfully in the country, if it is true that there are federal agents who are there to arrest this individual for being unlawfully in the country, or even that they have probable cause to think that they are unlawfully in the country, I'm not allowed to take action.

Steve Palmer [00:06:20]:

It might be a crime and certainly might be an ethical problem to prevent that from happening. So I hear these public defenders talking at court all the time, and I get it, but do this at your own peril. You're sort of like this. I guess it's almost a form of protest.

Troy Hendrickson [00:06:41]:

Yeah. I was thinking maybe this judge is trying to make a stance, and maybe she's like, okay, other judges used to follow suit.

Steve Palmer [00:06:48]:

Yeah, it's like a peaceful. Like a Thoreau, you know, like the old Henry David Thoreau. You know, this idea of.

Troy Hendrickson [00:06:53]:

Who's that?

Steve Palmer [00:06:55]:

Do the reading.

Troy Hendrickson [00:06:56]:

All right.

Steve Palmer [00:06:57]:

There's a book called the Night Thoreau Spent in Jail. Check it out. Anyway, the idea is I'm going to break the law to make a point. And if you're going to do that, okay, fine. But understand, there's a consequence. So we can't operate as attorneys based on our own sense of righteousness, contrary to what the law is. I can't do it. I can't do it.

Steve Palmer [00:07:22]:

And if I do, if I act that way, I should not be surprised. If there's a consequence, there will be a consequence. I don't always like what the rules are. Now, look, there are defense lawyers famously getting. I can't think of any examples right now, but actually, there was down in Atlanta. There was a gangster trial down there.

Troy Hendrickson [00:07:43]:

Young Thug. Young thug, I think it was Young thug. Yeah, yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:07:47]:

And that lawyer, who's a friend of a friend, got arrested because he took a stance against the judge. Now, I don't know if the judge's order was lawful or not lawful. I think the judge was ordering that guy to divulge a source, and the guy said, no, I'm not doing it, but at least he had grounds to stand on. And then maybe this is another point that we should kick around. If I learned of something in the course and conduct of my representation, and that's the only way I know it, in other words, I know that because my client told me that's a privilege. If I know it because of what I've done on behalf of my client. That's called a confidence. Those things get protected sometimes under the ethics rules.

Steve Palmer [00:08:27]:

But it still doesn't mean that I can assist my client in evading the law. As a close friend once said it as succinctly as possible, or succinctly as possible, I think, and I've often said this, I can always help my clients not commit crimes. I can always tell them, don't commit a crime, but I can't help them commit a crime or evade detection for crimes. It's like, I can't do that. So clients will ask me all the time, well, how do I get away with this? Or can't I just do this and be like, look, I'm not giving you advice on how to commit a crime and get away with it, not doing it, but I can tell you don't do that. So if a client tells me or if I learn that there's a warrant for my client's arrest, I Can't take active measures. I don't believe ethically or legally, you.

Troy Hendrickson [00:09:17]:

Can just advise them, hey, you have a warrant out.

Steve Palmer [00:09:19]:

You have a warrant. And now here's where I draw the line. You have a warrant for your arrest. I have learned this, Mr. Client, and this is going on right now in a case I'm working on. What if I show up to court? You're going to get arrested. Well, then I'm not going to come to court. Okay, There'll be another warrant for your arrest.

Steve Palmer [00:09:38]:

You have to come to court. I can't make you. And I'm not telling you not to be here. You should be here. And if my client chooses not to be here and face those consequences, so be it. But I haven't contributed to it. So, yeah, I haven't contributed to it. So, look, I think it's one thing to inform your client that that stuff is going on and there's a warrant for his arrest, even if it's ice.

Steve Palmer [00:09:58]:

And if that means that he's going on the lam, he's gonna run away, then so be it. I can't stop him from doing that. In fact, I think I'm probably duty bound to tell him that, you know, I'm not on the police team here, but it doesn't mean I get to do illegal things to fight the police. And I think the judges are the same way. Now, look back to the question. I mean, what do you think? Should Aesola be in the courtroom?

Troy Hendrickson [00:10:19]:

I think ice. I don't think it's really up to the courts. At the end of the day, they're federal. You can stop them. You can even arrest ICE agents to turn around. You're just gonna get federal indictments on you. Yeah, that's how I view it. It's not like a simple ICE isn't allowed.

Troy Hendrickson [00:10:34]:

I mean, at the end of the day, those ICE agents walk up like they're gonna walk in.

Steve Palmer [00:10:38]:

Yeah. I mean, there's something called the Supremacy Clause in the Constitution which says the federal government's the supreme law of the land, and you know it. A federal agent does take away the federal agent's status. I mean, virtually anybody has a right to be in a courtroom.

Troy Hendrickson [00:10:53]:

That's true.

Steve Palmer [00:10:54]:

It's a public forum. You have a right to be there. Now, you don't have a right to go disrupt proceedings in a courtroom, but you certainly have a right to be in the courtroom. You have a right to watch what's going on. There are certain times you don't. Judges can seal courtrooms for all sorts of reasons. And it happens sometimes, but in the main, we can be in court. Now, let's say I'm an agent in the course and conduct of my duty.

Steve Palmer [00:11:20]:

It's like, not only do you have a right to be there, I mean, you probably can't stop them from being there. At least that's how I think it shakes out. I think ultimately, if and when this goes up to the federal courts or even the US Supreme Court, I would venture to say that if anybody challenges the actions of, let's say, if the state court judges or prosecutors or defense lawyers are taking actions to help defendants and litigants evade arrest for known immigration problems, I don't think there's any valid excuse for that. I just don't.

Troy Hendrickson [00:11:55]:

That's fair.

Steve Palmer [00:11:56]:

I just don't. Now, look, do I agree with it? I'm not gonna. It doesn't make any difference whether I agree with it or not, because we all raised our right hand and took that oath. Now, if we are gonna be conscientious objectors and say, look, I'm willing to go to jail for this to show my objection, well, all right, go read the book. The night Thoreau spent in jail, right?

Troy Hendrickson [00:12:17]:

You have me reading books, you have me watching movies. I'm trying to learn some law stuff.

Steve Palmer [00:12:20]:

Here, trying to educate you. Because they don't teach you this in law school, right? They don't teach you this in law school. Look, this is a great topic. And what I like to do, if you've watched my other content, I like to take these sort of hotbed political issues, not take a position. I've got my positions on them, but it doesn't matter because as lawyers, we should be trained and be comfortable arguing both sides of it. And in fact, when I argue a position, I almost always start out taking the opposite position. Whether I'm in a trial, whether I'm in a debate, whether I'm in a discussion here at the table. I always try to pre think all the answers to all my questions or all my problems or what my position is, because then I'm ready.

Steve Palmer [00:13:06]:

In fact, I've had debates with people where they're giving me their answers. I'm like, listen, I get what you're saying, but your better argument is this, this, and this and this. But that still fails because of this, this and this. Because we've thought it through. And that's why when the real world and when we're lawyers, we get a big whiteboard and we start writing out all the stuff that we have to do, and we write the other side down, and then it. It informs our strategic decisions. But look, we have to learn to take both sides of the debate, even if you disagree with it. You have to learn to follow the law, even if you disagree with it.

Steve Palmer [00:13:35]:

You have to learn to follow the rules of ethics, even if you disagree with them or accept that there's consequences.

Troy Hendrickson [00:13:41]:

Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:13:42]:

And look, whether they. At least they don't teach you Thoreau in law school. So we covered that.

Troy Hendrickson [00:13:45]:

Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:13:47]:

All right. This is Lawyer Talk podcast. They don't teach you that in law school. Series off the record, on the air. Till next time.