Hey, beautiful mamas and welcome back to the Birth Experience with Labor Nurse Mama.

Yours truly, I'm your host, and as always, I'm here to have the real raw conversations about all aspects of the birth and the pregnancy journey, not just the highlight like Instagram moments we see on social media, but the whole truth of what it means to carry life, love deeply, and sometimes face unimaginable loss.

Today's conversation is going to be deeply personal for many of us.

So I wanna give you just a trigger warning because I'm sitting down with Jennifer sin, a baby loss coach who knows this path intimately.

Jennifer lost her twins at 32 weeks, and from that profound loss, she's created a calling.

The Lord put a calling in her heart to walk alongside other parents through their darkest moment.

And as someone who has experienced three early pregnancy losses myself, I know how isolating grief can feel and how desperately we need people who truly understand.

There's nothing like speaking to someone who gets it without a ton of words.

Whether you're currently walking through loss, supporting someone who is, or you're here because you work in maternal health like I do, this conversation is going to offer hope healing.

And practical support.

Jennifer doesn't just offer sympathy, she offers real tools, real understanding, and most importantly, real hope for what healing can look like after the unthinkable happens.

So, before we dive in, I want to remind you that if this topic feels too heavy today, it's okay.

Skip this episode, girl, and if you wanna come back when you're ready, listen, take care of you first.

And if you're in the thick of loss right now, please know you are not alone.

If you're pregnant again after loss.

You're not alone and that baby mattered and your grief is valid.

It's okay to feel grief and joy if you're pregnant with a rainbow baby.

Anyway, alright, mama, let's get into this beautiful hard healing conversation with Jennifer Sin.

Good morning, Jennifer.

Good morning.

I am so glad that you agreed to come and I, as I told you, we've already kind of put up a trigger warning because this is gonna be a heavy conversation, but I also think it's gonna be a really important, beneficial conversation.

Don't you agree?

I am so glad that you are willing to tackle this subject because it is, it is one that no one wants to even think about or mm-hmm.

Enter into the possibility.

But then when it happens.

Either to you or someone you know, you, you don't know what to do.

Mm-hmm.

So I would imagine maybe this episode will get skipped by some people, but Yeah.

But it's all, but it's also one to come back to.

Mm-hmm.

Should, should something happen.

So, yeah.

I love that you're willing to discuss this in your in.

World.

Yeah.

And I, I'm, I have a question for you about your own journey here in a second, but I, I wanna say that I had a conversation with someone recently in real life.

You know, 'cause we, those of us who work online, we have a lot of online conversations, sometimes not as many real life conversations, especially with, with me and I've had three losses, which I've told you before.

And I was speaking to someone who had a loss recently.

And no matter where you're at, you're in your journey.

The loss of your child is a conversation people don't want to talk about.

No,

they're scared.

They don't know what to say.

So either they say really stupid things.

Mm-hmm.

And we're gonna talk about that.

Or they say nothing and they just act like it didn't happen.

And then on the flip side, a lot of women just don't talk about it.

For whatever reasons.

Mm-hmm.

And so then we were talking about the fact that, especially with early loss, right?

It's a little different when you're navigating late term loss or baby loss after birth.

But even my mom, you know my story, my mom lost my sister at birth.

And the other flip side of it is that no one's talking about it.

So then when it happens to you, and if you are brave and you talk about it, which you should.

Then you're like, this person's like, oh yeah, I had a loss.

This person's like, I had a loss.

I had a loss.

I had a loss.

I had a loss.

And you're like, how did I not know this?

This is a significant thing that happened to you.

Why?

Why do I not know this?

So we're gonna start this conversation after all that whole tangent.

'cause y'all know this how I roll.

I have so many things.

Yeah.

Yes.

And we're gonna get there.

But I would love if you could take us back.

To that moment, and I know you and I have spoken about it, when you first learned Yeah.

That your twins were gone, how many weeks were you like, kind of take us back how whatever you feel like you need to say, like, no limits here.

You know how I roll?

Absolutely.

Well, thank you.

Yeah.

So I was 29 years old.

I had had two perfectly strong, big, healthy little boys.

No, I've never, I've never experienced any type of loss before that, so I had no reason to believe that this third pregnancy would be any different.

Well, then we went in and it was twin girls.

What's you're like?

We were like, so, my gosh.

And, and I went out to the car and cried, which of course I later beat myself up about because I thought, well, if I wanna cry, it's my fault.

That was, yeah.

But I cried about it 'cause we were already like, well, I mean we were okay with one more, but two and then, but then we just.

Quickly embrace that.

This was the grand finale to our family.

They were two girls, which is what

we do as women.

Yeah, that's how we roll.

Super thrilled and everything was going really well.

We did know they were identical and shared a blood supply, but not, you know, it was so slightly higher risk maybe at birth, but nobody was concerned.

In fact, I went to my 32 week appointment on a Tuesday and my doctor said, oh.

You're just the textbook case of perfect twin pregnancy.

Yeah, you look great.

Everything's great.

So I breathed, and then by Friday it was Halloween and I, my boys one to trick or treat, they were, they were five and two and so we went trick or treating and I was really tired, but I just thought.

I'm, I mean, I'm pregnant.

I'm, it's twins with two babies.

Yeah.

And they were, they were very active and I was at that point where, you know, their personalities, you know, I knew one was a little more active than the other.

And then the, the different times of day, like we were, we were, you know, so close that we knew all those things.

And so I was really, really tired.

And when I woke up, I didn't feel any movement, but I was like, well.

I mean, I'm just tired and we were out late and so you do the whole thing, the orange juice and the laying down and then the moving around and like what, you know, all the things that you know to be true.

Yeah.

To get them going.

And nothing was, so about 9 30, 10 o'clock, I called my doctor and that I was concerned and they were like, well, you know, it's probably nothing.

And just, yeah, come in at, come in at two.

So I did, I arranged for the other kids, luckily to go to my mother-in-law's and, and I went, did you go alone?

I went alone because my husband is a physician assistant and he worked in er, so he was at the hospital on a 12 hour, you know, shift.

And so of course I drove alone.

Yeah.

'cause it's gonna be nothing because it was no big deal.

I'm just, I'm just being, hi.

I'm being over hyper.

Yeah.

It was in my head.

Yeah.

And so I went in and they did the sonogram and you just know, you know the minute, yeah.

You see the look on their face and then when they have to go get the doctor, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And then when the doctor comes in and said.

You know, we're having trouble finding a heartbeat, but why don't you go to the hospital?

They have more sophisticated sonogram machines.

Maybe they can see when there mm-hmm.

Which was his way of saying he didn't wanna tell me himself.

Yeah.

And I mean, I,

I can, I can tell you from Yeah.

Being the nurse.

Yeah.

Who can't find the heartbeats in those situations, it is absolutely terrifying.

The worst, terrifying.

You know, we can't communicate it to you.

We do have to get the doctor, so I just can't even imagine.

And this doctor had a relationship with you guys?

Well, he did.

'cause my husband worked er, so we all knew each other.

And did he deliver the boys as well?

He did.

So he really had, like, he was probably, he just not,

yeah, I bet.

Yeah.

I bet his heart was breaking at that point.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I went over, met my husband, you know.

Okay.

That's, that was my next question, please.

So tell me your husband met you there.

Okay, good.

He did.

Although

somehow like, and then I think about it sometimes.

How in the world did I get in my car from that?

You probably don't remember that drive at all and right down the road.

Yeah.

How, but I did.

But do you just feel,

do you feel, do you feel like you were still like hoping at that point?

Yeah.

Or did you

know?

Yeah.

I was like, oh, well they'll find something and we'll figure this out.

Yeah.

We'll make it, it'll be okay.

So I met up with him there and you know, got the definitive diagnosis, then were presented the options.

Do you, do you carry it around until you go into labor naturally, or do you start induction?

And I just was like, well, I don't know.

I just didn't know.

So we went and

how do you make such a big decision at that moment?

Like that's a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You just can't because mm-hmm.

It's nothing you ever dreamed that you would ever have to think about.

Yeah.

So we did go home that night, and I remember, and my husband, I remember him.

I mean, he's the most amazing, you know, and, and very clinically minded.

Of course.

Yeah.

And he was just like, I could tell he didn't wanna touch me because I had dead babies.

You know, and it was, I don't think

you've ever told me that before.

I

probably didn't, but it was really, and he did.

I mean, he was, he was as good as he could be, but I could tell it was really creepy.

Well, and he, it was freak.

And he, he just lost his two girls and he did.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And he and his clinical mind was trying to make sense of this.

Mm-hmm.

You know, this whole thing.

And then there was me.

It was, it was a, it was not good.

And so we decided, we had to go home.

We told the boys, the family, everybody was there.

And how old were the boys at that point?

Five and two.

So they didn't understand.

My oldest one did some, but not so much.

Mm-hmm.

And then we, I went in the next day, was induced for three days, which, oh my gosh, this was my, and,

and you're in labor and delivery.

In labor and delivery,

which is so hard.

So hard.

Yeah.

Um, for three days and, and it's, that was my kind of my legacy with the other boys too, is I, you know, tried induction and I just ended up with c-sections with both of them too.

But they really were trying to avoid that.

'cause they were like, enough's enough.

We don't want you to have to have physical recovery on top of everything else.

Mm-hmm.

So we did it for three days.

At the end of the third day, I said, that's it.

I'm done.

I want, and I called in my dream team.

I had, you know, the doctors I wanted, the anesthesiologist I wanted, everyone I wanted was there.

Mm-hmm.

And we, you know, it, it was as good as it could have been in that situation.

And it just.

Yeah.

And then you go home.

Well, let me ask you a couple questions, because a lot of things have changed.

You know, I've been a labor and delivery nurse forever, you know, 20 years and 16 years in labor and delivery.

And when I first started.

It was starting to get better, but I know when my mom had her baby, my mom didn't even get to see her hold her.

What was your experience with the girls?

Did you hold them?

Did you spend time with them?

We did.

Did you get pictures?

All of those.

So not to sound like a dinosaur, but there were no cell phones yet?

No.

Well, I know I'm a dinosaurs five years, so yeah, they, they gave us a disposable camera.

They did do the hospital pictures with them.

So I do have pictures.

It's certainly not like people have now by any means, but yeah, and we did spend decent amount of time, although I have no concept of how much time it was.

Did they give you a memory box or anything like that?

No.

No.

Um, so I don't know if you're aware of the differences now, you, you probably are since you're in this field.

Yeah.

But now we have the cooling cots.

Oh, good.

I know.

Which keep the

baby.

I mean, I've had moms that keep their babies for like, up to 36 hours.

That's, and it's really based on them.

Mm-hmm.

And thank God for some of those advances.

And you know, like the nurse who.

Laborers and, you know, your labor and delivery nurse were the ones that have the honor of taking pictures, getting footprints.

I, I always tried to get a hand print.

It's not always as easy getting pictures of mom and baby partner and baby, whoever's in the room.

And

I feel like that in itself honors.

That this is your baby and, and that's your time with them.

Yeah.

You know for sure.

And I'm so grateful for the advances I've seen because when I first started, when I first started, there was almost like a, she wants to hold them.

How long?

Like what?

Like there, so do you feel like, looking back, are there some things that you wish the medical team, the staff had done differently?

I, yes, I do.

, I think they were amazing.

I have nothing but wonderful memories of, of what they did try to do, but yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Like, they're, they're definitely, I think I went from, I didn't wanna see them at all.

Mm-hmm.

And my husband insisted on it, thank goodness.

And I'm glad I did.

Yeah.

Thank goodness.

And I'm glad I did.

Yeah.

Of course part of me now is like, I wish I could have done it longer and I shoulda gotten more pictures than I should have, but you just, you don't know.

Yeah.

There's so many what ifs, student gracious, what

ifs can kill you When you're in that

moment, you just are survival minute to minute.

Mm.

So,

yeah.

But there, do you think

there communication with you?

Do you think there's wording, do you think there's demeanor, like ways that you feel Because I, I have a lot of maternal health experts who listen to my podcast.

Yeah.

So I would love for them to hear from a mom.

Yeah, I do feel

like we've come a long way, so hopefully we, we, I think so.

I do too.

I, work a lot too with my local hospital and I'm like, oh, yay.

I'm so happy that you have these, you know, these things now, and it's so much better.

But really the, the thing that stands out is my, one of the labor nurses had, I think she had a loss herself and told me about it.

That's what, that's what we wanna hear.

We wanna, we, at least for myself and I, ibel, I believe that a lot about, a lot of the women I work with, we wanna know someone else survived it.

'cause it doesn't feel like we are gonna ever, and here you are, survive this.

Yeah, yeah.

But like, oh look, they survived it.

How did they, you know, and so mm-hmm.

Hearing someone else's story and, and honestly, she, anytime she could, she would just come in and hold my hand and cry with me.

Yeah.

Or let me cry.

That's it.

So she said, so

for you guys listening, if you're a labor nurse, because there's this, there's a mixed bag on that one.

I mean, obviously we can't lose our poo.

We have to be able to do our job.

But crying like I, I think every loss that I've been the nurse for.

I, I'll tell you, I'll, I'll be honest with you, in my experience, the mom is a freaking rock and it's the dad who loses it.

The biggest during that experience because she is focused, she has a job, and I feel like the mom loses a little later, whereas the dad has a really hard time.

Yeah.

You know, well, men are, men are groomed to be the fixers.

They're the ones that are supposed to make this and they can't fix this.

No.

And there's nothing they can do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It has got, it has to be the most helpless feeling ever, where, like you said, the woman, she, she has

a job to do.

She has a role,

she has, you know, people are taking care of her and things like that, where he's just standing there helpless.

Yeah.

So that would make sense.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's my biggest advice is to say nothing.

Yeah, say nothing.

Oh my

gosh,

yes.

Be there.

Hold their hand if they want, cry

with them.

Be there and just, and be, and it's okay to just say, this is terrible.

I hate that you're going through this.

Mm-hmm.

So.

Obviously, so a lot of you guys know that I also have a coaching business.

I, well, I wanna say mentoring.

We were talking about this word.

Mm-hmm.

I mentor and I guide women who have an impact driven business like Jennifer, how to.

Do the things that those of us are really experts in our field don't know how to do, which is like social media and like outreach and growing funnels and all that.

But I wanna hear, I want everyone to hear what was the turning point that made you realize I wanna help other parents experiencing baby loss and how to navigate that.

Truly my, I mean, my own story was.

I. I didn't know what to do.

I had these two little boys who needed a decent mom.

Mm-hmm.

And you know, I just, I tried to put it all together so I just dove into to being a mother.

I had another baby shortly after.

Did

you go

to therapy?

A whole other thing?

No.

No, we didn't.

Oh, Lord.

Therapy then.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, no, I know.

No, because I, I'm an older woman too.

I was, that was worker like.

Yeah.

Yeah.

People are, you die, you dig in and you do.

Yeah.

Like,

you just do it.

You just function work.

You get it over, you know, you just put it, you do.

It's, it's, yeah.

So I, I had another baby, which was a whole other, that's a whole other day.

And then, and so I just got busy.

I opened up a business, I owned a large salon and spa for several years, and, and I, I built my business and I was busy with the kids, and it's, I figured as long as I was busy and exhausted at night, the grief wouldn't catch up with me.

And

you didn't talk

about it?

No, I didn't know that's what it was until several years later that the grief just wouldn't catch up with me.

And there was always a desire from the moment it happened to me.

And it also had happened to my mom.

So this was sort of a le family legacy.

My mom had a full term stillbirth too.

Did I?

I don't feel like I know this.

Yeah, maybe not.

Yeah, my mom, oh, wow.

Yeah, her baby died during birth.

That was older than me.

So, you know, we've always had this conversation.

So you knew that your whole life?

Like we, yeah.

I saw what happened and I knew I wanted to be able to help.

Other people through this someday because I found so much comfort in the ones who Yeah.

Did come forward to me.

But I was Did your

mom, did your mom help you in any way?

No.

Because we know your mom's not gonna listen to my podcast, so I feel like you could be honest about that.

My

mom about a year ago.

But yeah, she.

She didn't, she, she never really could say, 'cause they didn't

talk

about it for sure.

They didn't talk about it.

My mom, I think I told you this, when my mom lost Michelle, which I like to honor her by her name, like, let's say her name.

Her name was Michelle.

When my mom lost Michelle, my mom.

So she was, my mom had my sister and brother, and my older brother, I think he was, I, I'm the baby of seven, so everybody's way older than me.

I'm pretty sure Steve was still living at home and my grandma came in from Kentucky.

My family's very southern, let me just say that.

And Southern women just tuck in and do, they do not sit around and complain.

Yeah.

And my mom told me, now, Jennifer, this was literally when I had my losses the same day I lost my first loss.

My, my niece lost a 34 weeker to a cord accident and.

Somehow that brought up conversations that, I mean, you know, when you're growing up as a teenager, you, you're not thinking about your mom and what she's going through at all.

So I never really asked her about it.

I always knew the story, like I knew because she always signed my cards.

You're my miracle baby.

My miracle baby.

'cause she wasn't supposed to get pregnant again.

She got pregnant.

She had me, so the story was always there, but I never actually, woman to woman like this makes me choke up a little, like asked my mom.

Yeah.

And gosh darn.

And I remember when I had my loss, which changed me as a woman because I had always had a preconceived notion of especially early term loss.

And as a labor nurse, it completely redefined me and allowed me to be a better one.

And then I had two more losses.

But I remember talking to my mom and for the first time I wondered like, what was it like for you, mom?

Tell me the experience.

And I remember her telling me that, which my mom is, I, you just have to know my, but my mom was in bed, you know, first of all, she had a C-section number one.

Mm-hmm.

And she's got two kids who are, I mean, probably about the same age as of yours.

Yeah.

And her baby.

They had, you know, back then they didn't have what we have now.

So her baby was born with a hole in her diaphragm.

Like all of her internal organs had moved around.

It just wa now she could have had surgery.

Yeah.

Totally different.

Yeah.

But then I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you.

But my mom said she was in bed and grieving, and my grandma finally, my grandma came in and said, get your ass outta the bed.

Get up.

You have children to take care of.

Suck it up.

There's nothing you can do.

And it was like close the door in your grief.

No more grief.

And hearing my mom say that, it explained so much to me about my mother as a woman.

And so like I would gander, your mom went through a similar type of.

Suck it up.

Deal life happens.

This is just part of life.

I believe so.

She, she talked about it to, to a certain extent, but not really.

And even after my loss, she didn't come in and be like, oh my gosh, I know exactly.

Like, you know, it was a very interesting dynamic because you would think that she.

I and I fell for her.

I can't imagine how hard it was for her to relive that.

You know, and to

see her daughter have to go through it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

To see.

But she

also wasn't equipped to walk you through it.

She just could.

And I think that's why she said less.

Yeah.

That she was just like, listen, I never figured it out.

I don't know.

I don't know what to tell you.

You know?

Yeah.

Which is,

which again, like kudos to you, Jennifer.

'cause you're like, okay.

And I, and.

I truly believe in like those of you guys listening, like I am a believer.

I believe in the Bible.

Mm-hmm.

I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, and I truly, I have walked through some really horrible suffering in my life, and in the midst of it, when someone is like, God's going to use your suffering for someone else's glory, you're like F that.

You know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

Which I mean, fudge that y'all know, I don't say the other one, but I truly do believe that God uses.

We have a choice.

We get to define our suffering.

We can be, woe is me, I'm a victim.

Whole life is over.

Like blah, blah, blah.

Or you can say, you know what?

I went through this and now I'm gonna come alongside other moms.

Yeah.

Which is what you are doing and why I love working with you.

Because you can sit in a room, you can hold space for these women in a way that the rest of us cannot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And there's something different when you've lived it.

Mm-hmm.

Versus just learned about it.

So I, yeah, that is really, I sat, uh, for a very long time in like, I guess I just have to like, get through this life.

I can't, I'm, I can't make any plans.

I can't do anything and, and, you know, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna have to just struggle through and get through and make the best of it as I can.

Mm-hmm.

And then I went to a business conference where there was a coach, there was a life coach.

And I thought, well, that's weird.

Why do they have a, a life coach at a, who needs a coach for life?

Like, I dunno what she's doing here.

And everyone else did, vision boards and we were supposed, we were all supposed to be doing vision boards.

And I just sat there blank.

I was like, what?

Like, what do you mean?

What is this?

Hoey, dokey.

I dunno that I can make money.

I don't know that I can have anything better.

Like I'm just, you know, I'm lucky to.

Did you

feel

guilt

of maybe being excited about life or having,

I'm just like, I was just really bewildered by it all.

I'm like, how do people dare to say this?

Like, you dunno what's gonna happen.

You can plan your whole life and you don't know what's gonna happen.

'cause yeah, grace was like, I ended I lesson and like, and,

and then, and there's before, like for me, you know, like one of my big things is my ex-husband fell and had a very significant brain injury.

There's life before it and there's life after it.

That's exactly it.

And,

and I feel like I still to this day have to like reel myself in of feeling like, what's next?

Yeah.

Like what bad thing is gonna come.

Yeah, that's exactly how I was.

I was like, you know.

Mm-hmm.

Well, maybe I could, maybe I could get a nicer car, but I don't know.

You never know what's gonna happen.

Yeah.

You know, and that's really how I was just operating and she saw that, she saw I was sitting there frozen and she came over and she's like, what's really behind this?

And then I just was like, it just all of a sudden I, I realized that because of my experience.

With my loss, I was living life very, very safe because I just mm-hmm.

Didn't, never wanna set myself up for that kind of disappointment again.

Yeah.

And once I, and then I worked with her for a while afterwards and I thought, this is it.

This is, this is what I needed to know in order to help women do what I wanted to do and help walk them through it.

Because yeah, she just was able to show me like.

It's okay.

It's okay.

No one ever told me it was okay to grieve.

No one ever told me it was okay to, to cry or be angry or, , you know, none of that was okay until she told me that it was.

And that's so simple.

And it was, that's what I needed.

Yeah.

And, and I think we as women we're so we get so sucked into the guilt.

And into being the blame.

And when something like this happens in your body, you can't not blame yourself.

You know?

You, that's where you go.

Yeah.

Your body failed you.

That's how I felt too.

Like my baby.

I felt like my body killed my babies.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then, so being able to help women release that mm-hmm.

And release that guilt.

Like, it's, it's, it changes your whole life.

It changes every aspect of your life.

So that would be lead me into like, how do you help these parents navigate those different stages of guilt or grief, especially when you and I both know men and women, or you know, people mm-hmm.

Grief differently.

So how do you, how do you navigate that?

Like, and what does it look like for these moms to work with you and walk this journey with you?

Yeah, typically, you know, it, it, they will come to me because of something.

They just can't let something go.

Whether it's guilt, whether it's the anger, whether they're frustrated with their body.

They, maybe they wanna get pregnant again, but they're scared.

Yeah.

And so then we just, you know, we really.

What I love about what I do versus therapy.

I love therapists, but

yeah.

Um,

it's a little, it's definitely more action focused instead of just analyzing like,

yes, which, hello?

I am like, not, not to interrupt you again.

Have you ever, have you ever.

Seen there is a documentary and those of you guys who listen to me regularly probably know I talk about this, but Jonah Hill has a documentary.

Have you seen it with his therapist?

It's like something Stutz or something.

No.

If you

haven't watched it, watch it.

Because he talks about how you go to a therapist.

'cause you want them to tell you what the stink to do and they just listen then.

And then you go to your friends who you want to just listen and they tell you what to do and they don't know what the hell they're talking about.

Right?

Yes.

So I love that we're saying this because I love that.

I do.

I do think there's so much value in therapists holding space, but I'll tell you what, my best therapists have been the one who have broken the wall and told me exactly what I need to do because that's what I need sometimes.

Yes.

Right.

I think there's something, I love therapy and it certainly has its place, but there's also a point.

Which I think is what I do in coaching is yes, here's your, here's your experience.

We're gonna honor it.

It's never going, it's not going anywhere.

It's gonna be there.

So how do we take that experience and keep going?

And keep, you know, keep planning and all the while, let this experience feed you.

This, you know, it made me a better mother.

It made me more intentional.

It made me, you know, really dive into my relationship in order to, you know, to, to save it.

And it just, it makes you.

But without some help, I wouldn't have done it.

I would've still been in the space of, you know, you would've been stuck.

We're just, I mean, we're just here, we're just making the best of it.

We're just going day to day.

so that's what I, that's what I love about it, is I'm able to take their, take their fears, take their anger, yeah.

And then, and then help them look at what are the facts of that?

What, like, what's really true about it?

Was it your fault?

Probably not.

You know, 99%, no.

You know, what, what are the facts of it?

How can you think about things different and talk better to yourself?

I do a lot of that with women because we talk to ourselves.

So terrible.

Yes.

Worse than we would ever talk to anyone else.

Yeah.

And talk better to yourself and start releasing that guilt and fear.

Yeah.

If you could go back and tell Jennifer, like your past self one piece of advice during your darkest points, what would that be?

Hmm.

I think it would be that I still would choose.

This experience over that, this, I would still go through the experience to have had as much time with them as I did.

Mm-hmm.

Those 32 weeks was so joyful and so exciting, I wouldn't ever take it back.

Wow.

That's that's really huge.

And, and who it made me on the other side of it, even, even through the struggle.

Mm-hmm.

I do wish I, I would've told her to, to find some help sooner and that it was okay to look for help.

But even, even through the struggle, it, I think who I am now wouldn't have been possible without that experience.

Yeah, because now you're a baby loss coach, a pregnancy loss coach.

You, you provide still birth support and all of that comes from losing your twins.

Yeah.

I, I remember when I was pregnant with Grayson.

So I wanna ask you about your pregnancy after the loss.

Mm.

I was a wreck and I remember someone who had experienced a lot of loss, like a lot more than me.

She said, you are pregnant today.

You have the honor of carrying this baby today.

And it made, I, I thought of that when you were saying that you wouldn't go back and change it, because when I was able to flip it.

And 'cause I was literally constantly checking the toilet paper.

Mm-hmm.

Is he moving?

I went in here I am a labor and delivery nurse, like I work in labor and delivery, but I was going in for decreased fetal movement quite a bit.

And.

I remember when she said that being like, yeah, like, okay, I don't get to decide tomorrow.

Grayson may be taken from me tomorrow, but today I'm his mom Today.

I am carrying him today.

I have this honor.

So I'm interested to know, like, how did you navigate that next pregnancy?

Is

there a lot of fear?

It was, yes.

I, I was at the point where I was like, I knew I needed, I knew that this could not be the end of my story.

Yeah.

My, my baby's story, and I knew I wanted another child, and that waiting, you know, six months or a year or mm-hmm.

Whatever, three years was not gonna make it any better.

And so I just, I jumped in and my doctor was just, and he, the sweet doctor that delivered them all said, this is, you're never going to have an a relaxing pregnancy ever again.

Yeah.

It's like that is so true.

It's true.

Mm-hmm.

And it was like, we call it, yeah.

Full of fear.

It was full of fear.

But they, but they were wonderful because they said, anytime that you feel like you said, like with Grayson, you know, anytime that you are panicked, come in.

Mm-hmm.

Just come in, we'll, we'll do a heartbeat check, we'll do a scan, whatever we need to do to put your mind at ease, which was a lifesaver.

Did you do that work often?

Okay.

Maybe twice.

Yeah.

I tell my students all the time, we don't mess around with that.

If you even think Yeah, just come in.

If, if it eases your mind, yeah.

It's okay.

Because we won't judge you on that at all.

Yeah, no, because it, it is so, so scary.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

It was a really hard one.

I feel like I disconnected.

I disconnected from her.

From bonding.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

I, I mean, I was so thrilled.

I was so excited.

Yeah.

I couldn't eat all of it, but at the same time.

There was a part of me that was like, I dunno if she's, I mean, I don't know.

Yeah.

And you say things to yourself like, well, if this baby

Yeah.

Comes and then

you find yourself like not wanting to future pace at all.

Like I felt the same way.

Like I didn't wanna talk about the future with Grayson.

And I even remember the first few nights with him after he is born feeling very much like it was surreal and it could all go away at any moment.

Scared to death.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was.

Not the joyful ones, like the ones before.

Yeah.

And, and I, I'm so glad we're talking about this because I, I feel like for any of you guys listening, I feel like I also felt guilt that I wasn't like, I don't know, not that I didn't bond with him at all, but it was different and I was scared.

There was so much fear and.

After he was born again, like there was so much fear.

Yeah.

And you know, no one really normalized that for me.

'cause nobody freaking talks about it.

Nobody talks about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was very, very protective of her.

Probably still am.

But I, I would

love

to hear what she has to say about that.

I would agree.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was, yeah, because I put all my eggs in her basket, you know?

Here.

Yeah.

Here, here you're supposed to make up for the two that, that aren't here.

Yeah.

That was a lot.

And she, I mean I had a full on almost breakdown when she went to kindergarten 'cause I was scared that she wouldn't.

That come home, you know, she wouldn't live through the day without me or something.

I don't know what, yeah.

I mean, I still have the same thing, Grayson's 10 and when he, you know, most of my other children are adults, and when they wanna drive him somewhere, I, I have to really, I have to walk through a process of letting him, them be in control of his care.

I

think it's, it's after grief.

Mm-hmm.

After, yeah.

It's that, yeah.

Familiarity Well

and having life change.

Like even just what happened to my ex-husband, like knowing that you, like I, I'll never forget I was fif 14 weeks pregnant when he fell and had, and I was on the treadmill, I was running and.

When I got the call and I can still remember looking down, I know exactly what I was wearing, what I was feeling, all of those things.

And again, that like I got onto the treadmill before and I came off of it after, and my life is defined by that before and after moment, you know?

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

That.

Yeah.

Think you'd never look at things the same again?

No.

'cause you know that you feel ni, like you feel like, I feel like I was naive prior to that.

Mm-hmm.

In a way.

Yeah.

Because you hear of other people having suffering and you're like, well that can never happen to me.

Like, that's them.

Yeah.

That,

yeah.

Which I do think you think in stillbirth, like it's

something that happens

to other people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and people dismiss your fear too when you're pregnant, like with the like decreased fetal movement and people are like, well, everything's fine.

Like, okay, well we don't know that.

Let's go in and get checked.

Women have had

babies just fine for years.

Yeah.

And women have lost babies and they,

yeah.

That's the part they didn't, yeah.

They don't take into account.

I

know.

And well, and people when they, when you know, people are like, oh my gosh, you're a labor nurse.

That's so amazing.

Like what an amazing job And fun.

Like every time I hear that, like I flash all the moms that I've sat with and the babies I've.

Taking care of that didn't make it.

And not that I wanna scare anybody, this is why I gave the trigger warning.

But I feel like this is a conversation that needs to be had and we need to talk through these things because this is real life.

Life.

We talk about this in the coaching group, life keeps lifeing.

It does no matter what.

And just being able to hold space, like I'm so proud of you and I know when we even talked about you coming into the Mastermind and like I just am so.

Grateful for what you're doing because this baby loss, healing journey is freaking forever.

Right?

It's the rest of your life and that's,

yes.

I do think that is something that I love to bring into, into the space is it's been 25 years for me, but it's still there.

It's still there.

I might not cry about it every day anymore, but it is still affect my life.

It still is there, and.

I, I, the perspective I've gained from a, for a lot of things, you know what's important in life, what's not Yeah.

Is because of this and yeah.

So it is something that you, you can't put under the rug no matter how

hard.

Yeah.

Have any of your children had children?

Not yet.

How do you think that's gonna be for you?

Scares me to

death.

It scares

me to death.

Okay.

Okay.

'cause also there is a risk.

I mean, risk, but, they're all up for twins, right?

Yeah.

Because they, yeah, there's a, you know, there's a line of the twins.

I don't know how I will survive.

Did you get, did you ever,

did you ever get any answers on why you lost the twins?

They, it was a cord accident.

I was wondering and

because they shared, you know, the blood supply Yeah.

Once it, it was really present in, in one twin, in, in her cord, and so then it just instantly took it from the other.

Ugh.

Yeah.

I hate the,

I hate court

accidents.

Gosh, I do too.

It's so sad.

Yeah.

Well, but, but you know what, like, I know my personality, I need, I feel like, to have an answer.

Like, 'cause I know a lot of moms who never get an answer.

It's

the human, it's the human condition.

Right?

Like yeah.

We have to know.

We have to know.

Yeah.

Gimme why.

Yeah.

And that's why.

So me kind of going back into, the things that people say.

So like that, that's one thing that I think because of our human condition, we have to know that we have to have a reason.

We have to have, you know,

the, so you're talking about people asking you why?

Well just even say even offering things like, oh, well, you know, it must have, must have been sick or must be, you know.

People.

People give you all of these things,

or you can always have more babies.

Yes.

It's okay.

You can have another baby and you.

Mm-hmm.

Can

you know God must have needed this baby more than you did and all of these, oh my gosh.

Things.

Or

you thank God you have children at home.

Yes.

Well, at least you have.

I heard.

Yeah, I heard all that too.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

If someone told me this was my favorite one, well at least you didn't get attached to them.

And it was

like people say the stupidest things.

Yeah.

Like I can, I just like, this is why, just this is just don't say nothing.

Just don't say nothing.

Yeah.

You know?

Would you believe when I got, so I have a daughter who's adopted.

I had four boys adopted a daughter.

This is so off topic, but random.

But you know how I go.

So I had four boys adopted Satara.

She was probably, when I got pregnant with Lainey, she was almost five, right.

And.

I'm pregnant with a girl.

I have, I'm having a girl, and we are on it.

My kids were very athletic.

We were at a hotel for a baseball tournament, and me and some of the moms were all sitting around talking.

And this mom says to me, she's like, now that you're having a girl, are you going to send Satara back?

What?

I, I, I still am at a loss for words.

No,

and I was like.

Or she said, are you gonna keep her?

Or something to that effect.

I've had this baby since she was 16 months old.

She's literally like, she's 25 now she's always been like, she'll just stand and stare at me and talk and listen and like, she's always just been like my girl, you know?

And I always joke that I had to go to another country to get a child more like me, but, but.

I still, I was mad.

I was angry.

I was very angry and I was like, oh yeah, yeah, I'm just gonna return her because now I'm getting a girl.

'cause it's all about like, did I get a girl or not?

Like Oh wow.

When I adopted S Tara, I got to check a box on gender what I wanted.

So obviously I had four boys.

I wanted a girl.

Yeah.

But that's about as far as I cared.

I didn't care if she had special needs.

I didn't care like what her skin color was, any of that.

Yeah.

I was so blown away and I remember laying in the hotel room that night being like, do I punch her or do I educate her?

Like I don't even know what to say.

Like she is my.

Daughter, you moron.

Like I was so mad and fast forward to my losses.

Like I remember I can still, and I think that some of the callous words that are said, like they cement you to a place in a time.

And I remember I had just, when I had my first loss, I was working a travel assignment.

I was in the, OR doing a c-section with a precious patient and I, I knew I was miscarrying, but I didn't leave her until after I got her to the PACU and then told them and.

I got home from that travel assignment and I was at church and this girlish, she's, she's the late thirties, never been married, but she was like a child and she comes up and I don't remember exact, like she said something about me being pregnant, which of course I wasn't.

And I, that was really hard.

Was.

People not knowing.

I'm sure you experienced this for the people who are finding out for the first time.

Oh gosh, yeah.

Not knowing it sucks.

And she was like, I'm not joking.

She kind of laughed a, not laughed a little bit.

She was like, I mean kinda.

And was like, oh, I bet you're so relieved.

Like you didn't need

another baby.

And I was like.

I'm gonna pick you in the eyeballs.

Like, that's how I felt.

I felt violent.

You felt normalized.

Not saying, saying a damn word.

Everybody's parenthood journey because Yeah.

Yes.

You don't know anyone's story.

I know.

I and my mother-in-law, 'cause my, my daughters-in-law, like we're just, they're just all getting married now and so my mother-in-law is 80.

Well, you better hurry up.

They're almost, they're like in their thirties because they're old.

Yeah.

I'm like, you dunno, you dunno if, if they can, if they might.

Yes.

And, and

that's yeah.

Like, yes.

Yes.

Yeah, when you see someone who's married who hasn't had baby, well when are you gonna have babies?

You dunno what they're going through.

No one knows someone's story.

Stop asking that.

And you know, as I got older, and of course I have seven kids, people.

Especially elderly people will say stuff to you in the grocery store, like when they were all little.

And I remember finally people would be like, don't you know what causes that?

Oh, I agree.

And so what I started doing was I turn around and go, yes I do.

And I like it a lot.

'cause they're asking me about my sex life basically.

Pretty much.

Yeah.

Well come And another one in my community that is so hard, we talk a lot about this in my community is how many kids do you have?

Yeah.

How do you answer that?

And I know, I know it's a ti I know it's a conversation starter.

I know it's a mm-hmm.

But when we're, when we're being sensitive to everyone else, you know, desires in the world, let's, let's be sensitive about Yeah.

Like,

how about, tell me about your family instead of asking how many children do you have?

Yeah, I

know.

And I, I mean truly.

Mm-hmm.

Unless you've been through it, it's something Yeah.

You don't think of.

I would love to see society grow in some of these areas too.

How do you coach

these moms and these parents in your community who have lost, how do you coach them for that one?

What is your advice to them?

That one I, I, I say because also too, that if they don't include the baby, then they feel guilty.

Yeah.

Like, so there's like this whole multi-layer thing that goes with it.

But I, I just say you, you assess who, who's asking.

Do they get to know your whole story?

Mm-hmm.

Do you just tell them, you know, maybe, maybe the ones that are the children that are with you, maybe you just tell 'em that number because they really don't care.

It's truly just

people don't care, care, it's just a

point of conversation.

They really don't,

and they don't wanna hear something hard

and they don't wanna hear your whole Yeah.

I mean, yeah.

Now I've done that before where I've said, oh, I, yeah, I, I just have three kids.

Then I get to know someone a little more, then I let them in on my whole story.

Yeah.

Because then they, yeah, we're a little more invested and they can carry it.

I can, I wanna share with them.

I don't feel like everyone needs to know, you know?

Yeah.

Not everyone gets to know your story is tell them.

Well, I would say for you some that has changed now that.

People are knowing that you are a baby loss coach, a stillbirth coach.

Yes.

You know.

Oh, 100.

Yeah.

So that might be opening up doors for you as well.

Yeah.

Well, Jennifer, this has been an amazing conversation.

I am so happy that you came on, and for those of you guys who have stuck with us to the end that are listening, if you want more information or you're going through loss, Jennifer, tell everyone where they can find you.

I can, I'm on Instagram, I'm on all the socials at Navigating Baby Loss, and my website is jennifer send.com and I have a free ebook that

Okay.

So we can link that.

Yeah.

Can we link that in the show notes?

Absolutely.

Okay, good.

So if you guys want that, that, that's perfect.

And thank you again for sharing your story, and thank you for doing something so amazingly needed.

I appreciate you.

Well, I appreciate all the work you're doing too.

Thank you.

Well, thank you.

Speaker 2 00:49:41

For anyone listening who's connected with Jennifer's story or needs the extra support she was talking about, will have all her information in the show notes.

Speaker 2 00:49:49

Do not hesitate to reach out to her.

Speaker 2 00:49:51

Healing doesn't have to be a journey.

Speaker 2 00:49:53

You walk alone.

Speaker 2 00:49:54

And mama, if this episode brought up big feelings for you, please be gentle with yourself.

Speaker 2 00:49:58

Grief has its own timeline and healing isn't.

Speaker 2 00:50:02

Linear.

Speaker 2 00:50:02

If you found value in today's conversation, please share it with someone who might need to hear it.

Speaker 2 00:50:07

Sometimes we can become the bridge for someone else's healing just by being brave enough to share our own story.

Speaker 2 00:50:15

I'll be back with you guys next week with another real conversation or birth experience or birth education because we want to be there with you.

Speaker 2 00:50:25

You are so amazing and so strong.

Speaker 2 00:50:28

I love you guys so much, and as always, see you again next week.

Speaker 2 00:50:33

Bye for now.