0:00:05.4 Vickie Brett: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vickie Brett.

0:00:09.0 Amanda Selogie: I'm Amanda Selogie. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:19.3 VB: Each week, we're gonna explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others.

0:00:24.8 AS: And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field. Welcome back, friends.

0:00:36.9 VB: Hello.

0:00:36.9 AS: We are, you know, still in the early stages of 2025 dealing with lots going on in the country in the state of California all across the country in the world. And we're in it, and, you know, we find that there's so many important conversations that we need to have, we're trying to have. And so today is going to be, you know, just another really important conversation. So we're really excited for our guests. Mike, thank you for coming to the podcast.

0:01:09.8 Mike: Thanks for having me. I'm honored to be here.

0:01:11.7 AS: Can you introduce yourself to our listeners and give kind of a little bit of background who you are and your experience?

0:01:17.9 Mike: Yeah, absolutely. So I live up in the Bay Area, where I was born and raised. Born and raised in Oakland. We live in Marin county now, a little north of San Francisco. And for the last 24 years, I've been speaking and writing and leading workshops and for the last decade, podcasting, talking a lot about inclusivity and connection, teamwork, collaboration. Like how do we find common ground in an increasingly divided and disconnected world? So that's been a lot of my work.

0:01:47.1 VB: And I feel like since probably even before 2016, there's a lot there that you were able to pull from the real world. Yeah, we, I mean, we were really intrigued in your background, with emotional intelligence and, you know, the teamwork work that you do and really focus on unity, because it seems to be difficult, you know, with Amanda and I and the work that we do. In January, when the new administration took over and, you know, they ended up getting rid of DEI and, you know, you know, people not really knowing what that was going to look like and how it trickles down. And when Amanda says that were in it were kind of really just seeing, you know, the effects. And I wonder, how has your work pivoted or has it just kind of expanded? You know, have you been able to expand your reach in the people that you work with?

0:02:43.6 Mike: Yeah, I mean, a lot of, you know, we do a lot of work inside of schools and school districts. We also do a lot of work inside both the public sector and the private sector. And, I mean, yeah, things are changing rapidly for all of us on a daily basis. So we're just trying to keep up with it. In some ways, I've been saying to my wife, this is different, but it also feels weirdly, kind of like the first month or two of COVID right when we were like wait, what's happening? What's going on? What does this mean? What are we doing now? And, yeah, you know, so, I mean, again, not that either of that time or this time were very fun or easy. I think it is a lot about, for me personally and for our team, just constantly paying attention to what's going on, what's needed, you know. And look, at the end of the day, policies are policies, and executive orders are executive orders. But I just recorded a podcast episode earlier today where I was talking about like the need for inclusion and belonging isn't going anywhere. No matter what the policy is, no matter what the languaging is, no matter what people say it or how it gets turned into a pejorative or whatever.

0:03:42.1 Mike: Like we have a fundamental need to belong as human beings. And if we're going to create healthy school environments, and you all know this because that's the work you do or healthy work environments, there's going to need to be a sense of focusing on inclusion. So we just got to get creative for how we do.

0:03:56.6 AS: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've heard some people in the last, I mean, even since the election try to play the blame game, saying, well, people push too far on, you know, the quote, unquote, DEI policies. And so that's how we ended up where we're at. And, you know, my response was, what are you talking about? All we're doing is trying to push inclusion, inclusion of all Americans, children and adults, to be included in the very fabric of society. That's not pushing an agenda. That's pushing equality. And it's something that like political affiliation or not like we should be striving for no matter what. It's not like it's not an agenda. It's literally what we, I mean, and what we've kind of put our whole careers and lives and business on, you know, really focusing on. So it's...

0:04:55.1 VB: To piggyback and Mike, when you were speaking before and saying, you know, that you do work in school districts, I can't imagine anybody, you know, listening to you and then coming up and being like well, that was what a waste of time, right? Like it's not, you know like I can't imagine that that's the response that you get. I'm sure to a certain extent, it's kind of like wow, I never thought of it that way. Is that true? Does that ring true? I'm sure you have, you know, a story of a bad apple or two, but I would imagine that for the most part, you know, nobody is thinking you're shoving an agenda down their throat. It's more so just like oh, wow, I never thought of it that way.

0:05:28.9 Mike: Yeah, you know, I mean, my background is interesting in that. Grew up in Oakland, as I mentioned, is by a single mom. We didn't have a lot of money. I went to public schools growing up. I actually got drafted out of high school by the New York Yankees because I was a baseball player and I was pretty good at it. And I didn't end up signing a contract with the Yankees because I got an opportunity to play baseball in college. And I got recruited to play baseball at Stanford, which is about an hour from where I grew up in Oakland. And that was a really interesting experience for me, getting a chance to go to school at Stanford and play baseball there, because very different only 45 minutes to an hour drive from Oakland down to Palo Alto.

0:06:02.8 S?: Night and day.

0:06:03.5 Mike: Yeah, night and day. Very different. And I met a lot of kids at Stanford. You know, Oakland's very diverse, racially diverse.

0:06:10.7 Mike: But Stanford was actually diverse in a different kind of way. I mean, a lot of the kids on the baseball team were white kids like me, but they came from very wealthy families. And I say this because what then I learned was I grew up with a stereotype of like oh, these rich people from these parts of the state or the country they don't care. And then I met a lot of these and they became friends of mine, and I was like oh, wait a second. And I did get a chance to play. I got drafted by the Kansas City Royals after Stanford. So I went into the minor leagues, as you do in pro baseball. I ended up getting injured, but 18 of the first 25 years of my life before my baseball career ended was focused on that. And I learned a lot playing baseball because it was less even about the game, and it was more just about. We had to work together if we were going to be good. And so I say all of that because oftentimes when I'm talking to groups, I start with a bit of my story, and then I'll ask the group whether I'm inside of a school talking to the administrators or the students or the parents, or I'm at a school district talking to administrators from around the district or the region or the state, or if I'm talking to Corporate executives or engineers or physicians.

0:07:20.6 Mike: I'll often say, think of the best team you've ever been a part of in your life, professionally, personally. When you were growing like what made that team so great? And people, doesn't matter where I am, people say the same stuff. It's like well, we cared about each other. We believed in what we were doing. We, you know, we knew what the goal was. I mean, it's all this like pretty soft, squishy stuff. And it's not an agenda. It's just, oh, you were connected to the other humans around you. And there was some sense of, they don't always use the word inclusion or belonging, but there was some sense of like we were connected as humans, and that made us then do whatever we were trying to do better.

0:07:58.5 AS: I mean, that's all that every, you know, human wants. And when we talk a lot about child development and how to support these kids, we're often sharing the philosophy that all kids need is connection to you, to each other. It goes so far, whether you're their parent or a coach or teacher, it goes so far to just connect. And often where we have conflict and we have even behaviors out of like kids or adults, it's because we have miscommunications and we don't have that connection and we are not understanding each other. And I think that really bottles down to like what we're talking about when we think about inclusion and really being all, for one, not, you know, isolated individuals. And I think that has gotten so lost in, you know, whether it's social media or, you know, political messaging or propaganda, whatever you want to call it. I mean, we're not getting to the root of like what are we actually after.

0:09:01.6 Mike: Absolutely. And I think, you know, I will say this as someone who, you know, grew up, where I grew up, I often try to explain to people like growing up in Oakland, Berkeley, San Francisco like it's so politically to the left that like Where I grew up, the Democratic Party was considered kind of the right wing. Like that's the politics of it. And I say that just in context for, I think for a lot of us, again, this isn't really about left, right or Democrat, Republican. But I often find one of the issues we run into all the time when we're trying to advocate for things is I think about one of my favorite quotes from Dr. King. He said we have no morally persuasive power with those who can feel our underlying contempt for them. Think about that. We have no morally persuasive power with those who can feel our underlying contempt for them. Now, look, when we're talking about really important issues, very, very emotional issues, issues that many of us feel very passionately about, or we feel like they're being assaulted, as many of us feel right now, it's easy to respond in kind with some version of whether we say these words or not like what is wrong with you or that's ridiculous, or you're an idiot, or that's terrible, evil, wrong, racist, sexist, you name it.

0:10:12.6 Mike: And what we have to remember is even if we genuinely believe that, and that's our opinion about it, which we're entitled to, our opinion. First of all, the natural human response to self righteousness is defensiveness.

0:10:24.3 VB: Right?

0:10:25.0 Mike: So as soon as you start attacking someone, even if you feel like you're being attacked, the attack then gets a, that's why conversations on social media don't usually go well when we're ever gotten to the end of a political rant on social media and thought, you know what, I'm changing my mind.

0:10:38.9 AS: Yeah, right.

0:10:40.0 Mike: Never once. Right. Because it's like that's not a forum where we really can influence each other.

0:10:46.2 VB: Right, Right. Yeah. The work is happening more so face to face, right. If you're really intent on trying to understand the other person's perspective in the way in which, you know, they're showing up. And, you know, if you can kind of get through that and you oftentimes see a lot of their decisions are based on fear, you know, and it's very difficult. And so I can only imagine, you know, the way in which you're able to be vulnerable, you know, at the forefront and just kind of let them know, you know, and these are all my experiences. I'm just an accumulation of my experiences.

0:11:26.5 Mike: Totally.

0:11:27.0 S?: And I bet that resonates with a lot of people.

0:11:29.3 Mike: Well, it does. And I think the thing for me too, I mean, again, just using my own story, my own background, it's like I'm a white kid growing up in Oakland, weirdly spent a lot of my young life as a minority in the environment, not a minority in the country, right. But like in the environment like I was on sports teams or like I was the only white kid and I didn't fully appreciate or understand. I mean, I remember feeling like oh, this is a little strange or at times a little scary or wow, people don't look like me or they're different references to things or whatever the case was. Then I got out into the world, and I realized, oh, there aren't a lot of other white men that I meet who are 50 years old like me, who've had much experience of being in the minority in many situations.

0:12:12.5 VB: Oh, right. Yeah, Right.

0:12:14.3 Mike: And in a weird way, I don't know what it's like to be female. I don't know what it's like to be black. I don't know what it's like to be gay. I don't know what it's like to be anything but me, right. But I do know what it's like to not be in the majority at a pretty formative time in my life. And that influenced me in a way that gave me kind of a unique perspective and some empathy and some realizations of like okay, wait a minute. Not everybody looks like me, not everybody thinks like me, not everybody has the same lived experience that I do, and vice versa. However, there's so much stuff, without sounding corny about it, there's so much stuff. There's so much common ground for us as humans.

0:12:50.7 VB: Yeah.

0:12:51.3 Mike: Maybe we can focus on that while we're still debating and discussing and arguing things that need to be debated and discussed and argued. Because if all of a sudden it's like the three of us might agree on a bunch of stuff and we're right, and they're like yeah, but we can't influence anybody being right over here in the corner.

0:13:07.5 AS: Yeah.

0:13:07.8 Mike: You know what I mean?

0:13:08.4 VB: Right?

0:13:08.8 AS: Yeah. So on our podcast, we really love to talk about these bigger problems, these bigger conversations to like start the conversation. But we also like to give like proactive like steps people can take. Because it's one thing to say, here's the problem, let's talk about it. And it's another, what are we going to do about it? And so, in light of everything that's been happening with executive orders and, you know, Project 2025 and, you know, we've talked about all that before. I'm hoping maybe you can provide some recommendations or advice if like if think if you were speaking to parents or schools that are afraid because they're being told like DEI is banned and special education can be considered DEI.

0:13:54.7 Mike: Right.

0:13:55.1 AS: And schools want to stand up, but they also are afraid. Right.

0:14:00.0 Mike: Sure.

0:14:00.4 AS: So maybe if you could share some guidance on how to think about this from the perspective of you can do it without doing it, if that even makes sense.

0:14:08.5 Mike: Absolutely. No, I think first and foremost, for all of us individually, it's really important for us to be real about how we feel, because a lot of times. Look, anger is often a secondary emotion. What's underneath it? When we get angry, when we react to stuff, when we see a headline or we read something or we watch a clip or we forward an article. Can you believe this? Okay, I get it and I do it. And my wife and I, Michelle and I are both navigating like how do we stay informed and engaged without constantly being triggered and angry all the time? Because that's new, not effective, right?

0:14:38.4 VB: Yes.

0:14:38.7 Mike: So finding.

0:14:39.8 VB: We need to follow up with each other about that because, yes, currently that's my state of.

0:14:44.4 Mike: It's hard, right? Because one approach is like I stick my head in the sand and I don't pay attention. That's probably not helpful. The other approach is I'm constantly scrolling and I'm outraged 24/7. That's also probably. There's gotta be another path. So I think all of us right now, myself included, we're trying to figure out what that other path is. So finding new sources or people that we trust who can help us get the information without feeling like we're drinking from a fire hose. But the underneath piece, though, is deal with what's the actual emotion? And oftentimes if it's fear, that's okay. If it's sadness, that's okay. Now, we don't enjoy those emotions, but they're really important emotions for us to actually. And the truth is, you all three of us and everyone listening to us, we've all been scared before, we've all been sad before, we've all been hurt before. Like again, not that we are like yay, isn't that great? I feel sad or scared or hurt, but like you know how to process those emotions. Healthy mental health isn't being happy all the time. Healthy mental health is being able to process our emotions as they come up in an appropriate and effective way.

0:15:41.0 Mike: So I really encourage all of us to like take care of ourselves in that way so we're really aware of like what am I actually afraid of? And the truth is, we're usually not afraid of like a hundred things. If we can identify, okay, I'm. Again, if you're a parent of a child with disabilities and you're like I'm afraid of what this means for my kid and my family in my community. Okay, that's legit and real. Like get very granular about it and specific. And then who can I talk to? Who can I ask? Who can I advocate to? Because oftentimes when we're just sort of amorphously afraid, oh, the world's going in a terrible direction. What is this? It's like that's kind of like watching a movie. We want to get it into our real lives and make it specific and then see if we can actually act in our local community. Because that's where we really have some agency and some power, especially these days.

0:16:30.9 AS: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that is so important. We emphasize that a lot of, you know, going to your schools, going to your school boards, going to your local, even, you know, Department of Education, there's so many resources out there. Everyone's trying to figure it out and trying to figure out what to do next. But, you know, people who are empowered to do something won't know what you want them to do unless they. They know, right.

0:16:55.3 VB: Yeah. And I mean, you can even following that thread, it could even be smaller than that. You can, you know, go up to some of the other parents in just in the classroom, right. And I find that once you kind of start talking or open up a little bit, you discover a whole new realm, right. Of like parents either feeling the same way or actually worried about a separate issue that may be related. Because I understand us saying like go to your school district, go to the board meetings. That's overwhelming. Right. We're all maxed out. We all have, you know, kids and other obligations. And it just like you said like it kind of starts to feel overwhelming and so then to like refine it even more, it's like you know, just kind of getting involved a little bit more, right. Within just the classroom, I think, or within, you know, if you're a teacher kind of listening, you know, speaking to other teachers and, you know, really, you know, about these issues because sometimes, you know, you tiptoe around it, but, you know, you can kind of put feelers out.

0:17:55.4 Mike: Absolutely.

0:17:56.2 VB: And kind of feel it out.

0:17:57.6 Mike: And another thing to remember is, you know, I said earlier, the natural human response to self righteousness is defensiveness. The natural human response to vulnerability is empathy.

0:18:07.0 VB: Yes.

0:18:07.5 Mike: So if we can lead and it's scary. Right. It's hard to be vulnerable. But if we can lead with vulnerability like hey, I'm feeling scared or I'm feeling confused, or I don't understand this, people are often empathetic to that as well as, you know, as human beings, by the way, even people we don't necessarily like or agree with, we're wired as humans to want to connect and want to support each other.

0:18:29.2 VB: Right.

0:18:29.7 Mike: And there's that whole thing. Yeah. There's that whole saying like it's really hard to hate people up close. Like the closer you get, the more you're like oh, wait a minute. That person's not whatever I thought they were. They're just a human like me trying to do the best they can. And even people on the opposite side of issues that we don't understand, you said it earlier, they're often scared. So it's like they might be scared of different things or they have different sets of concerns or information they're getting that's causing their fear. But if we can even meet in that place of like okay, we're all kind of scared for different reasons, right?

0:19:03.0 S?: Yeah.

0:19:03.4 Mike: And the thing is like another thing that I often say like I wrote this book called we're all in this Together. And it actually came out right as we were getting into Covid, which was a really interesting time to have a book in the world called We're all in this Together. As people were asking me like are we really all in this together? It doesn't actually feel like it right now. My response after I thought about it for a while was like well, I guess it's more like we're all in the same storm, but we're in different boats.

0:19:26.3 VB: Yeah.

0:19:27.0 Mike: Which I kind of think is true all the time, right?

0:19:29.8 S?: Yeah.

0:19:30.5 Mike: And, yeah, it can be hard when something big is happening or things are happening like they are right now that they feel like oh, my gosh, we're all in these storms, but there's usually people around us. If it feels like our boat is taking on a lot of water and we're drowning, there's usually someone around us that we can reach out to who's not drowning in the same way that we are. And that's where we reach out for help and support. And sometimes it's even like if you have a good friend and you're freaking out and you call them, unless they're actually freaking out in the exact same moment about the exact same thing, they're usually going to be able to help you calm down a little bit.

0:20:01.8 VB: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, we are wired to see. I know it's very American to, you know, pick yourself up by the bootstraps. And that's like this capitalistic kind of thing, right? It's it we seek out, you know, and that's why the saying also is, you know, it takes a village, you know, to raise a child. And, you know, I think that being able like you said, on a very just small level, is there someone I can speak to? Right. Now is great advice because we can know all of this, right. And this is a wonderful reminder. But then the system gets flooded.

0:20:39.0 Mike: Yes.

0:20:39.6 VB: And so then that kind of all goes out the window. So, you know, as Amanda and I have been navigating past couple of months and hearing from people, I actually want, as we wrap up, to say to our listeners, please message us. You know, we, you know, have a lot of topics that we want to get to and, you know, if. If we're able to kind of hear back and any feedback. And Mike, we would love to have you back on if we have people with particular kind of scenarios or just, I mean, we could spend another episode talking to you, because these just go too quickly. But we do it so that you guys can get so you, the listeners, have a bite size of the conversation. Like Amanda said, when we first started this podcast in reaction to Trump 1.0, it was, you know, to start these conversations, not to preach to the choir, but to, you know, give the perspective, even if it's from our own experience. And we have received such wonderful stories and have met so many wonderful people because of these conversations that we started.

0:21:48.5 VB: And I cannot believe we're already at time. But, Mike, if people wanted to reach out to you or even to find where your books are, where can they go? What can they do to reach out to you?

0:22:00.1 Mike: Yeah, I mean, I'm on all the social platforms and the books are available on Amazon or wherever you get books. But the best place to connect with me and learn more about my work is at our website, which is mike-robbins.com.

0:22:11.1 VB: Wonderful. I think, yeah, Amanda and I might just have you on for another therapy session. My goodness like I do feel a lot calmer. I do feel a lot calmer.

0:22:19.1 AS: Yeah.

0:22:19.7 VB: Mike, we appreciate your time and listeners. Yeah. Please reach out to us on any of our social media and we will talk to you soon.

0:22:28.2 AS: Bye.

0:22:28.2 VB: Bye.

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