Dear, dear listener, hi, this is John Dupuy. I want to ask a favor of you. If you like the podcast Deep Transformation and you're getting a lot out of it, could you please help us by going to wherever you get your podcast, it's a Spotify or Apple or wherever it is, and write, write a review that would really help us to get this out. We really believe in what we're doing and we're really praying and hoping this is helping people and being part of the solution. So if you could do that, it would be greatly appreciated by Roger, myself and our team. God bless. Thank you.

In part two of our dialogue with the remarkable Miranda McPherson, she describes the powerful, profound opening she had in Ramana Maharshi's cave. An opening which wiped away her previous personality and opened her to being pure being and allowed her to become the effective teacher and contributor and guide that she is today.

Welcome to to Deep Transformation. Self, Society, Spirit, Life Enhancing paradigm rattling conversations with cutting edge thinkers, contemplatives and activists with Dr. Roger Walsh and John Dupuy join us in the evolutionary fast lane as we take a deep dive into transformational practice. Peak experience. Profound understanding, powerful contribution. We've been having a series of conversations with AH Almas, and in his teaching he talks about ascending, you know, to the mountain peak, to the, the Holy Grail, if you will, the realization of that. And then a lot of people like to stay there because, you know, who would want to go back to anything else? But then you have to do the descent.

Yes.

Bring it on back home, back into the world.

Absolutely. And I have a great, great blessing of being able to sit with and study with Hamid over the years. And that is a tremendous blessing and has helped me a great deal in the process of, you know, this ongoing inquiry. And I remember, you know, talking about the mountaintop. There was a time when I was in Tiruvannamalai and I knew I wasn't yet ready to re. Enter the world of the west and everything and that I needed more time to steep there in that field of Ramana and the mountain. And I remember this arising and it was like this spiritual fantasy. I could just happily disappear up this mountain, never to be seen again, just live like an ascetic, you know, part of me would have loved that. And I had a dream that night. And in the dream it was as if the mountain itself, and by the way, this isn't an ordinary mountain. Like this mountain has absorbed so much practice of such great souls over thousands of years. Ramana just being One of them, it was as if the mountain was shaking me and it kicked me up the backside. And it says, get back into the world. Lead a full human life and serve. And I left India the next day. It was like, that was the orders right there. There was no argument. Whatever you wanted, girl, tough luck. This is the truth. This is not what's supposed to be happening for you. This would be an avoidance for me. It might not be for another soul, but it was not the Dharma that was supposed to be happening for me.

So you were called back into.

I was absolutely called back, yes. And so that was when I knew it was time to re. Emerge to come back into the West. And that was when I was going, okay, what now? And big complex stuff like how to navigate a divorce, how to deal with all your possessions, wrap up a whole life, like, transition from one continent to another and all the complexities. Begin a whole new life where you don't know anyway, make friends, like, build a new life right from ground zero. Big stuff. And okay, the only way that that was possible was to stay in the now and to ask and listen and then to be willing to be obedient, to okay, this, okay, this. And so it wasn't like a voice saying, okay, do this. It would be just like the flow of life presenting the obvious next step of the thing that needed to be looked at, or the person that needed to be spoken to, or the research that needed to be done. And also, you know, the courage to open into it, even though it was vulnerable, even though it was edgy. Okay, okay. And the strength and the courage actually comes from the depth of your devotion and your sincerity really has. For me, anyway.

Say that again. The depth of your devotion and sincerity.

Yeah. That's where the strength comes from. That's where your courage comes from. Right. When your heart, your deep heart is so engaged. It's like when you love someone very deeply, almost more than life itself, you naturally would do whatever it takes to help them thrive, wouldn't you? Right. Like a parent loves their child. And in that love, there's action that happens in the service of their child's well being, independent of whatever the parent it takes them out of the self centeredness and the worries and the concerns. You just do what's needed because there's something that you love more, that's more important and it births itself. This is, by the way, the power in my view of devotion and why no matter what kind of path you're walking, it's not going to bring you all the Way home without devotion.

Well, say more about that, because that's quite a statement.

Yeah, it is. I believe it deeply. Well, it's because it's the source of the strength, the source of the love. The source of the motivation is God, right? And it's one and the same as love. And once we get a taste for it, it exponentiates itself. And so when you turn your consciousness into whatever your preferred name or face or form of the divine is, call it what you like, and you just let yourself say that name and you let yourself feel your love for that. The fact that you love that, it represents the truth that you love, that is the truth of us all. That is what really matters. It's like a flame getting stronger and building itself into a fire that transforms. You know, it's the fire that changes the shape of the metal. Right. And not only that, but when we pour ourself into devotional practices, like certain prayers that have been said through beings in countless forms and times and lineages, you know, that we resonate with for whatever reason or in my experience, when I turn into a mantra, you know, every time I. When I've hit walls in my path or my journey or places of despair, what I've learned to do is turn into a mantra which is not only of our name of the divine, it's a vibration of holiness. It carries with it the love and the spiritual energy and devotion of countless beings before me. It's like this river that gathers momentum as it goes along and carries more souls back into itself. And then as soon as you intone, Om Namah Shivayaro Omni Padmi Hum or Om Nama Bhagavad or Our Father who art in heaven, or May all beings dwell in the heart, whichever one does it for you feels right for you. It's like, there you are, you then get carried. You're entering this stream that has already been flowing that's so much bigger than your worries and your concerns, so much bigger than your fear and your doubt. And there's power in it. And it feeds our. Yes. And it empowers us. And it's like a strong broom that sweeps us. It's a strong broom of a substance that is purer than anything else that is going to clean house. I could go on, but I'm starting to rave now.

Yes, you certainly could. I was going to ask you about this brings up something you said earlier about going to the cave. Right, the holy cave and Rupert Sheldrake. I don't know if you're familiar with his?

I do.

I'm very interested in science and physics and trying to figure out the whole thing. And he's a brilliant man, but he's also a very spiritual man, a mystic, definitely. And he talks about the. The power of pilgrimages.

Yes.

Being these places. And I had experience. One time I was doing this tour of Europe and I went to Dachau, right. Nazi concentration camp, and went there at night. It was foggy and kind of misty and rainy. And they leave the gate open. There's nobody, you know, taking tickets or anything. And walked around there and just. Just absorbed that suffering. Like your question as a 13 year old.

How. Why?

What the f. Over, you know. And then we drove directly to Assisi.

And gosh, wow, that's amazing.

I know. What a polarity, Right.

But perfect. Something in you says, I want the full spectrum.

Yes, indeed. And so we got there and it was all foggy. And I said, hey, Francis, could you give us a nice weather? And all of a sudden, the sun begins to lift. I'm like, okay, that's kind of scary. And we walked into the big cathedral there, you know, it was in November. We had. It was like a holy ghost town there. Barely anybody there. It was really beautiful. And there was some. A sign saying this Tumba de Francesco, you know, and it's like Francis's tomb. And I'm like, I am not ready for this. No. I would just pull down into this space and there. It's hard for me to talk about choking up. And there was his tomb and all his brothers that I'd read about. People that were really loved him and that were together, were surrounding him in the circle. And there was just. I don't know, the light was perfectly holy. And I just sat there, it felt like a holy fire was just burning my heart, you know, And I wasn't expecting it. I kind of had this idea God is everywhere. You know, it's like all this stuff, superstition, and it just burned my heart away, the pain. So it makes me think that as a practice, going to these places where this energy has accumulated over centuries, decades, there's transformational power, if we're open to it.

Very much. Yeah. And I think that's why human beings over times have flocked to these places where a great soul has. Let's just say the window pane not only got so clarified, but the glass got taken out.

Yes.

Right. And so there's just total openness for these celestial beauties and possibilities and this nobility, you know, divine being to manifest itself in a human that has inspired us and that the ripples of what poured through are still there and actually gather more momentum as more souls gather to say, we want this too. We want to feel this too. And that's happened in many parts of the world. And if we can take ourselves to these places. And I love it that you're including places where some of the most horrendous things have gone down, where the most awful, inhuman manifestations have gone, where the darkest things have happened too. And I know that there's something that's been going on in me in the last few years I haven't been writing about, but I will. It's coming soon. But I'll give you a little headline where I'm feeling this polarity that isn't really too. Of all the suffering and distortion of all of the human condition that ever was, that has happened in me, that has happened in us all that has happened, you know, Hitler, Jews, slave owners, slaves, rapists, rapists. The depth and density of the ignorance and the suffering that has gone down and is still going down. Can I open my whole being to all of it? Can it all be made love to in this vessel? Right. Can I see and understand that for what it is? Can I open my heart to all of it and let the distortion and the suffering be transformed, be tonglen'd be understood more completely? And what can be birthed in that possibility of a deeper humanity, a deeper wisdom, a deeper compassion, a deeper possibility, new understandings and creativity of how we can show up and help others and be more beautiful and impeccable?

One of the other lessons I was given in Assisi was there, outside of the town, you just go down a hill and there's this church that Francis restored with his own hand. And later it became a place for Claire, his counterpart lived and with her sisters. And eventually, when he was ill, he went there to die. So there's that. That kind of energy there. And it was just a chapel and nobody there. And I just hung out and prayed, and I was starting to go back to the hill. What I kind of got was like, Francis and Claire, his brothers and sisters, they had stepped up to the challenge of their times. Yeah, what was going on? The Middle Ages in Europe wasn't really a happy time. You know, the time of. Of slavery, serfdom, incessant war, slaughter, rape, pillage, on and on. And he had found a way to meet the challenges of the historical time that he was in. And my mantra, my question, how can I step up to the Challenges of my time. And what does that look like? And that, of course, that's still a question that I'm still working on.

And that is the question, isn't it, for all of us right now? What are we called to personally? What do we need to open our hearts to and be more fully present and meet so that we can be more responsive rather than reactive? We can hold down the light in what often seems like very dark times where we can retain our optimism even though we have no idea what's happening next and how it's all going to shake down, where we can be joyful and beautiful in spite of it all because we're in touch with something that is always here, a grace that is always so. And that life is still a blessing.

Here's another question that you're here and you're on, that I want to pose to you. I was at a small workshop with Andrew Harvey.

Oh yeah.

Back east. And there's only like 12 of us in a living room. It was very intimate and I got to hang out a lot. And he had, you know, a list of reasons we should be concerned, right? About state of the world, the state of things, humanity, whatever. And I, I can't remember them, but I don't think they've changed much over the years. But the last thing he said, the reason for hope, he said, and this has stuck with me, he said, God has an agenda. What do you say to that statement?

I agree completely.

Okay.

I don't claim to know what that agenda is, only the little whiff that I glean, I would summarize is wake up in love.

I think that covers it. It's beautiful.

And if we just let that reverberate through and let it enter and go, okay, where am I blind? Where am I asleep? Where am I less than awake? What actually takes me away from being open hearted and awake in this now? So if we were to let that help us to take inventory, right? It is something that I do on a regular basis. Before I'm going into any retreat, I ask myself this question, is there anything that is taking me away in any tiny little minute or big way from being open hearted and awake in the now for my impact to be anything less than a blessing. And I write a list. This is my taking inventory and it's a fearless inventory, right? But my commitment is whatever goes down on that piece of paper, on the intimate. I'm going to be loving, I'm going to be kind to myself because I need that kindness and that forgiveness in advance. For my own human stumblings, the places where my awakening may not be total or complete or fully integrated or fully embodied. I need forgiveness and grace in the looking so that I can look. It's not so that I can just say, oh, they're there. No, it's so you can look. You can be fierce where you need to be, because we all need to be. It's like the tree of life says, you know, we need the mercy and the need to justice. We need the both.

Yes. That's a beautiful question to ask before, well, almost any activity. I wrote that down and the words I took were, is there anything in the way of my showing up, being loving and being fully helpful? It's a beautiful Cohen for life.

Yeah, well, it's a way just to take inventory and see where am I? And then there's a commitment to see. Okay, so how do we embrace where we are? Honestly, with loving kindness and compassion and mercy and then practice into those places is one of the things I see in all my years of working with people is that, you know, we all tend to apply our practice in the places where it feels good and we often don't apply our practice in the places that, where we most need to. And this is a curious phenomena that we know. We all have blind spots and things, places where we don't look. And I'm sure that people who hang around with me can say, yeah, Miranda's not looking at that and that and that she should look. So it's also good. Well, if you have good friends who know, you might be useful to ask them once in a while when you know and trust that they only have your good intent at heart? You know, is there anything you see me getting up to that seems to be taking away from me being as fully awake and open hearted in the now as possible? Anything that's a bit of a drag for you to have to deal with, that's coming out of me. Would we dare to ask the ones we love that question?

And you're pointing to the beauty of a spiritual community, dear friends. One can.

Spiritual friendship.

Yeah, spiritual friendship. People on the path sharing the values of awakening and loving and growing up and supporting one another in it.

And I think that's so important and I think it's more important than ever before. Because if we just look at our culture just in the last 20 years, all the technology that we're all using is forcing us all to multitask more than we ever have, more than is biologically good for our well being on every level. There's all the neuroscience. You probably know more about it than I do, Roger, about what multitasking does and how it diminishes our quality of functioning on so many levels. This is not actually natural. We're not yet adapted to it. And for spiritual practice, that's a disaster. All the great wisdom traditions have said we need to develop one pointed concentration. Well, we're all becoming ADHD because of the bouncing around that we're just operating out of. That isn't good for us. So we're up against that. We're up against social media misinformation being bombarded by so much. Everyone I know gets more emails than they can handle. And so some people stop using email and just text one another now. And that's come way out of control. And so there's this bombardment and lack of space that makes it harder to stay intimately in touch with what's really going on with where we are, where we're abiding. So I think we need community, we need one another. We need the cultivation of that kind of spiritual friendship to support one another in our practice as much as possible.

Yeah, and you're emphasizing now the several things. One, just the value of spiritual friends or people sharing those values of waking up and growing and loving, et cetera. And you're also speaking to the over the busyness of our life. And I'm struck by the issues you're describing here of our hyperactive ADHD lifestyles these days and the transmission you got in Ramana Maharshi's cave. And perhaps you can share that because it was a pretty. Almost the opposite.

Yeah. Be nothing, do nothing, get nothing, become nothing, seek for nothing, relinquish nothing, be as you are, rest in God.

You can feel the letting go that that induces.

So it's a similar. I mean, how I understand that now it's simultaneously just a beautiful. Just like unhooking. An unhooking of all the mechanisms of ego consciousness separate somebodyness that misunderstands everything and is interfering with the divine circuitry and hiding the just the simple rest in God, where everything is restored and restored, resets us to our original factory default setting. And I use that myself, you know, when I notice tension contraction where there's a reconstellation into an ego mechanism in order to respond, tackle something. Sometimes I just lie on my carpet in my office here and I just come back to being do nothing, get nothing. And it's just like, oh. But I also understand it's an ongoing practice. It's the practice of what I call ego relaxation. Relaxing the mechanism that thinks it's the doer, it's an overdeveloped muscle we all have. Relaxing the energy within our ego that thinks it has to get the grasping, I need to get this, I need to get there, I need to get that. The becoming. There's someone who thinks it needs to become something in order for something to happen, you know, or seek for something, or it has to have a goal, or it has to have some outward motion, or it has to get rid of something that it believes. Should all this innocent misunderstanding of our separate somebodyness. Come on darling, let's just come back down to reality, shall we? So let's settle down into the deeper truth, which is no, we are all, all within and part of God always. Even when that's not our felt reality, that's still what's so. But it's where we get to be restored to a deeper, purer platform from which we can open our eyes into the ordinary and see what can emerge rather than tense up and stress and struggle and push headbutt into life.

This is such a different perspective from conventional understanding and certainly from my own upbringing and understanding which had no knowledge of the possibility of letting go, trusting in grace. But it was all about, and our conventional training is all about refining motivation, honing the ego, hon, honing one separate self sense and the emphasis on becoming effective agent in the world. So this is a very, very different perspective and understanding of human nature and possibilities.

Yeah, I suppose so. I mean it's definitely the end, the flip opposite of everything. You know, conventional worldly would say try harder, do more, become more, effort more. Get rid of the things that aren't right. You know, it's a complete flip and it reminds me of, I don't know whether it was Gurdjieff or someone else who said that usually when we turn a commonly accepted worldly idea 180 degrees on its head, we usually land closer to the truth. And so it is very much a koan in the way of the Zen tradition. And who knows whether you know, the great being that taught me Zen meditation in my 20s, Sister Eileen McKins had primed that pump, but also A Course in Miracles had primed that pump. You know, I woke this morning with a memory, something I'd forgotten about, but I want to share it with you and probably because you're a Course in Miracle student. Roger that. I was starting to really dig into working with the Course in Miracles in my early 20s. And I remember the first time I went through the workbook and there is a lesson in the workbook that says, I rest in God.

Ah, yes, right.

And you know, it's beautiful and it's. I mean, if you read the actual text of that lesson, it is pure poetry. It is saying things just like medicine upon a soul. It's saying, you know, every time you rest in God, a tired mind is suddenly made glad. The bird begins to sing again, the stream, long dry, begins to flow, the path opens up and you find it. As you walk the path, it just becomes lighter and easier Every time you rest, you rest in God for everyone. And it's so beautiful and poetic and true. But I remember, Kay, I would always do the lesson first thing in the morning and then I would try and be a good little Course in Miracle student. And often a course in miracles asks you, okay, three times a day or on the hour, come back to this. And inevitably, I mean, it's very humbling because you just completely forget. And I remember driving with my first husband down the freeway in England. We were going to visit his mother. It's a two hour drive and he and I are talking, what's the lesson again? We'd both forgotten and we back and forthing and we'd come to the conclusion it was something about rest and something about God. But we couldn't for the life of ourselves remember. And we were joking around going, oh, God's having a rest. Where's the rest of God? I'm exhausted, I need a rest. We're playing around screaming with laughter, and then finally we're almost pulling into her driveway and we looked at each other. I rest in God. It took us two hours to remember something so exquisite, pure, direct and utterly simple. And it was so wonderful. It was such a powerful, positive confrontation of how come I couldn't remember that? It really helped me look at my resistance. And it also made me want to cultivate the will, the willingness. So this is part of what you talk about, Roger, about. There is a part we have to play in the showing up for a practice that requires getting to it, remembering it, applying it, you know, coming back to it, sticking with it even when we don't feel like it, understanding what's going on in our resistance and not letting our resistance just win. So from that day onwards, I took to writing the Course in Miracles lesson on my wrist. And even though as the day wore on, it would get harder and harder to read, nevertheless it was the action of I'm writing this on my hand because I want to remember I want to remember this two minutes on the hour where I marinate back in this reality, this invitation. I really look back with a tremendous affection and gratitude on that time and on the arising of that willingness in the. That I'm sure prime the pump, you know, for further realizations and things.

And there's that, that paradox of that. How can we figure this out? It's a polarity. But being, resting in God and then becoming. Yeah, God wants us to be.

That's right.

Therein lies the. The alchemy or the rub or the mystery, or what it means to be human.

Absolutely. And the mystery of. And we see it. Well, I feel that when I look at these Tibetan Yubyong paintings of everything and nothing, making love to itself, being and becoming emptiness, fullness. Our part, the mysteries part, is this divine dance. But here we are, I mean, right now, here we are, all of us, sort of in our own way, dedicated to our own practice, our own path, the ongoing process of learning what's meaningful and how to be the most pure, noble human being we can be in ways that are beneficial and beautiful and joyful.

Grace has been so central to your understanding of life, your teaching, your way of being, and I'm struck by that. It's part of a whole understanding of reality for you that the divine, the dao, whatever you want to call it, is beneficent in some way. And you've decided your answer to Einstein's question, is the universe beneficent? Is yes, totally.

More than yes. Yeah.

And I contrast that. You know, this is very intriguing and helpful for me because coming from the other side of things, which was a very scientific, reductionist, materialist, all this spiritual stuff is nonsense beginning, which still leaves its impact. I'm repetitively humbled by the extent to which the worldview I grew up in still leaves its marks and leaves me approaching you much more inclined towards the active rather than the receptive side of life and practice. Even to times it's dysfunctional. I just had a really nasty case of code and during the midst of that, found myself, when I had no energy and no anything, still trying to push in some way to keep a practice going. And it would have been the perfect time, perfect just to say, I can't do it over to you and rely on grace. But did I think of that until, you know, week or so, couple of weeks later? No. So it was like, wow, after all these years, that kind of. That attitude, that worldview still has tentacles and, you know, in some ways were mirror images. You very Early.

Yeah.

Were opened into that perspective, and it became your foundational worldview. And for me, it feels like you're a Grace native. I'm a Grace immigrant. I feel like digital natives. Digital immigrants. So I don't know what to, you know, welcome your response to that. But it's been a. For me, very intriguing and wonderful and graceful to have you as an exemplar of that and to be able to dialogue with you about it and to see a beautiful mirror image for myself.

Well, I think what you're speaking of, and I feel very touched by what you're sharing, Roger. And there's a few things. The first one is that grace, you know, the mystery of the divine force in that always brings forth what is needed in its beneficence. If healing is needed, it brings the compassion that is what's needed for healing. If strength is needed, it brings that forth. If courage is needed, it brings that forth. That's my experience. But the gate is always humility and surrender. And so the mind must humble itself. There's no other way. And what helps me is really getting honest with the limits of my mind. And what we were sharing together, all of us, a moment ago, about recognizing what we don't know, all of us. And I'm sure everyone listening has learned some truths about life and humanity and being here. And the divine. And the humility I'm speaking of doesn't trash that, but it's really rather a posture, an inner attitude that we can cultivate that I find what helps me get into that is when I contemplate the questions, what is the cause of the love that I feel for the people? I feel it for who and what brought those beings that I can't imagine my life not including the privilege of what we've been able to share in together so far. Who made that happen? Was it our effort that made that happen? Was it our effort that made us interested to explore the spiritual path as messily and imperfectly as we might be doing? Like, how is it that you were built the way you were built, with this extraordinary mind and capacity to synthesize that I really admire and who and what made me. The way this vessel is built with a different kind of openness and with weaknesses, too. So when we really contemplate what is so the most beautiful things in our life, the truest, purest parts of our experience, and we turn, go deeper into it, what is the source of that? Who and what made that happen? There's a natural humility of the mind into its Rightful reverential place where we realize there is something so much more intelligent than we can even fathom that is what's in charge and has been this whole time and has been curating itself in us and inviting us to learn certain things and develop in certain ways and stumble and have the experiences so that we can learn more. And it is grace that's doing that. It's the grace of what Aurobindo calls the divine force. And I love how he said, you know, surrender, the kind of full surrender that all the paths are trying to lead us and help us with. He said surrender doesn't happen in a day. He said the mind resists and clings to its ideas. So sincere effort with your practice is required. He said, but if this is done, the rest comes by grace of the divine force.

Let me say a little bit about Roger, if you don't mind. I think Roger's a three on the Enneagram. Oh yeah, he became an md, a psychiatrist. And he that while he was in med school he got a PhD in theoretical biology. Roger, something like that. And all these accomplishments, written all these great books and, and hung out with all these people. Yet he's one of the humblest men I've ever met, had the grace to be friends with. And that driveness to accomplish has made him now able to influence for the good or be a channel for peace, to be a channel for love. If that hadn't there hadn't been that force in him to drive him to get that knowledge and get those letters in front of his name and all that, that in itself is also grace.

Totally, as you know. And one of the things I'd love to just share publicly here is that I first encountered you, Roger, when I was a course in Miracle student in my early 20s. And I happened to be just part of a small team of people that were gathering other course in Miracle students together to form community. It ended up becoming something called the Miracle Network in the uk, still going today. And we were all young, enthusiastic students of the course and someone had found an article you'd written and it was a really wonderful article and we all had this big debate about it over dinner one night and then we decided, let's publish this. And it was your article on looking at a course in miracles through the lens of the four primary yogas of Hinduism. And I loved it. I'm in this sort of I'm interfaith seminary training at the time. And so this totally rocked my world because I so appreciate your interest and capacity to Sort of see things and connect the dots and understand with these mystical systems fit and dovetail and where they don't. And I was reading your and Francis's books, you know, where you were bringing forth your favorite passages of the course in miracles and making that available for people. So, I mean, how beautiful is that, you know?

Yeah. Well, one could even say it was grace.

I would. My point precisely. And so that grace moves through us. We are ultimately this being human is a grace delivery device. Our bodies, our hearts.

Oh, I like that phrase. That's nice.

This is the fourth, what I call the fourth dimension of grace, which is the embodiment of grace, the living of it. And when we let our. We regard the beingness that we are, with all of its various faculties, see strengths and weaknesses as a vessel. It's a vessel for the divine to express and pour more of itself into this world in a unique way. We're not supposed to be the same. We're supposed to ignite one another.

Beautifully said. What a wonderful ecstatic vision, actually, of grace delivery devices.

Yeah. I write about this in my book.

Yeah, you do.

It's because. And there's a chapter for anyone who's interested as where it's in the four. The structure of the book is in four chunks and each of the chunk represents teachings and practices and perspectives that relate to open up grace, a different kind of experience of what grace is and how we become more graceful. And where it's all leading is to becoming grace delivery devices, which is the embodiment of grace, the fourth dimension being the grace. You see, grace is a divine force. It's alive. So maybe I should have this conversation with Hamid one day, but I think maybe from the diamond approach perspective, it would be somewhat akin to, you know, what he calls the dynamism, you know, the unfolding dynamism of reality. It's alive, dynamic, pulsating, living, continuing expressing through us.

Yeah.

Early Christian writings in New Testament, it was the Holy Spirit.

Exactly.

It just said it was a teacher, a comforter, the active part of expression of God.

Exactly. The spirit of holiness. Yeah, yeah. And it's alive.

Yeah.

Beautiful.

Yeah. And I want to just mention more about your book, Miranda, because really is a beautiful piece of work. The way of grace, the transforming power of ego relaxation. It really does give a beautiful distillation of all the thinking and about and grace you've received and the way you've given a. You've just given a very beautiful expression of opening to this way of being and surrendering and, you know, just to acknowledge what a. What a nice. A very beautiful work it is.

Thank you.

There's so much more we could. We could get into. We haven't even covered some of the things I was thinking we'd get to.

But maybe we do a third podcast.

There you go. Probably down the line for sure.

That would be grace. Yeah. Thank you.

Yes. That would be beautiful. As we come towards the end here, is there anything else you'd like to add?

Oh, goodness. You notice what's arising right now is just the importance of. Yes. And thank you. Which is a practice, actually, of being here now in all of it. The beauty and the horror, the uncertainty, our hopes, our concerns, our love, our caring, our despair, our inspiration, and just opening to all of the mystery and the grace inherent to all parts of our experience and remembering. It's all a gift. Just like I'm sure you've had the experiences I have had where you're with someone who you love and cherish and they're dying, they're leaving this world, and in that moment where you intuitively know this is the last communication in this life, in this form, if you've ever felt that, as I have, isn't what comes out of you just gratitude, Just a desire to say thank you, thank you for it all, including the messy things, the arguments, the difficult spots, as well as the beauty and the joy and the laughter and the fun. And if we can just stay close to that, just yes to life. And thank you. Maybe it could even become a practice as we walk in nature. Yes. On the in breath. Thank you. On the out breath.

Yeah. And I'll just add that my late wife, one of the last, just very shortly before she died, someone asked what her spiritual practice was, and she said, I'm practicing gratitude. Okay, that's been a useful one. Thank you.

Yeah.

Beautiful. Well, deep gratitude to you, Miranda, both for being with us today, but also for opening to it all as you have over your lifetime, and it's been a very remarkable lifetime. You have imbibed the world's wisdom. You've transmitted it. You've shared so much of what you've learned. You have been a wonderful vehicle of grace and a delight to have you here and to know you. So, as you said, thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, John. Thank you, Rajan. Thank you, Heidi, and those who are listening. And I just hope this has been meaningful and helpful and a good friend to you on your road.

Thank you.

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Sa.