PJ Ellis (00:38)

So welcome to episode five. Today we are joined by, I say this all the time, the legend Andy Wilkinson. I know you Andy as MD and founder of OWB Creative Comms. There's a lot more to that Andy. Do yourself the service and introduce yourself, Bab.

Andy Wilkinson (00:54)

Thank you very much, PJ, Andy, lovely to be here. So yeah, so I'm Andy. I founded OWB 25 years ago this year, and we sold last year into a global comms group, DRPG. So we've gone from 11 staff up to over 400 staff with offices now across the UK, in Europe and in the States. And I'm also, and that's where I met you, PJ, I'm also chair for the Institute of Directors for Greater Birmingham.

which has been a real privilege, which you're only meant to do for two years. And I did it after COVID and then they extended it for another two years. So I come to the end of my chairmanship at the end of this month. And we met first of all, under canvas on a British army away weekend or whatever for the IOD and stayed good mates since.

PJ Ellis (01:41)

It's not often you can say that you met your mate sleeping under the stars.

How's that transition been like then, mate? 11 members of staff to director of a company that's got 400. I mean, challenging?

Andy Wilkinson (01:52)

Yeah, exciting, challenging. mean, within 25 years of running a business and growing it, and we were a lot bigger and then we shrunk down and stuff with COVID and stuff, but going into a bigger team, the energy and the rigor of being part of a bigger team is brilliant.

I think it's opportunities for the team, OWB, to go into different areas, but it's having that support mechanism of brilliant HR people, different departments, a brilliant group services team that can support you, and also bigger opportunities for bigger clients to work on, more opportunities to grow and develop.

we met Dale, who's the founder of DRPG, who Andy has met as well, who is just the most amazing mega bloke. It sort of fell together really, and it was a perfect fit.

Andy (02:40)

I have to say, PJ I don't know if you've had the privilege of visiting the new studio.

PJ Ellis (02:44)

I have a feeling that many, moons ago I did. And all I seem to remember, this may have been a fever dream, Wilko, but there was loads of props. Is that still the case? Yeah.

Andy Wilkinson (02:53)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's huge.

Four and a half acres. we've got three film studios, Rich Hingley, who's the chief creative officer. if you go around with him and he shows you some of the amazing content stuff and Dale and Rich, when they take you around, I mean, we, filmed the gadget show there for a number of years. And, ⁓ yeah, it was a, I think back in the day, it was, we made Merlin engines or they made Merlin engines for Spitfires there after the second world war.

And then Dale bought it about 20 years ago, Dale and Rich. And now it's the biggest single service or single purpose studio facility, certainly in the UK. It's just incredible. And when Daws came and did the whole tour and showed the whole shebang with all the props and everything, he came away with like, wow, I've just been to the James Bond School of Marketing.

And I love, I use that as my proper intro when you get people there and we do tours and we get people down there and, know, we're staying here in the middle of Birmingham still, obviously, you know, this is our, this is the heart, heartbeat for OWB. We've just taken bigger offices here in Brum. But it's great having that facility just down the road and with 300 people based there is superb.

Andy (04:00)

Yeah, no, it's absolutely magnificent. And I'm pleased to say we're customer

Andy Wilkinson (04:04)

met Daws as well, he was quite upset. He texted me afterwards, we met at 200 degrees and we had a coffee and we did the sort of jibber jabber chin wag, know, shall we work together? I left, he left, I left him with the bill obviously and I ran off. And as I left and got back he said, I'm really upset after that meeting. I was like, why? And he said, well, you didn't do one of your long arm selfies with me. I was like, right.

Okay, I thought I'd like really like made a cock up on what I'd said or whatever. And he was like, no, no, no, you haven't done one of your long arm selfies. was like, mate. Right, we'll make sure we do that.

Andy (04:29)

Yeah.

We got that right. But even, testament to you and your creativity, that in itself is a bit of a unique moniker for yourself, isn't it?

Andy Wilkinson (04:43)

Yeah, it's yeah, it's become a thing. It has actually become a thing. Just our team conference last last week, our hangout, we had about 400 people there. And they did a film that the guys did of me like with my massive long arm, they made this extended long arm. And all the teams wanted to come and have photos of these long arms with me. And it became like, and I stole it off my oldest daughter

She did it once, So I stole it. And now I have to say, I went into a networking thing actually. What wasn't networking? It was a drinks thing in Birmingham. And this dude came over to me and he said, oh, you're the guy who does the funny photos, aren't you? And I was like, well, yes, I'm also an extremely well-known person and blah, blah, blah, blah. No, I didn't say any of that. And I said, yeah. And I had all these like bankers all like, oh, can I be in that one? And it's, you know, in a world of blandness.

whatever you can do, I mean, you guys, both with your content, your personalities, what you do on social media alone is different. What you're doing here with Wit + Grit is different. And in a world of, you know, know, bland AI generated, content, you've got to do something different. You've got to stand out,

And that just has become a thing, you know, it's just become a funny thing.

PJ Ellis (05:56)

It's good angles, mate. I think in a world that's on fire, we need more Wilko selfie shots. For those that are listening on podcasts that will never really understand what we're about, check Andy Wilkinson out on LinkedIn and every other photograph will be him doing. I mean, you mainly do it at the networking events that you do, don't you, every last Thursday of the month.

Andy Wilkinson (05:58)

Yeah.

Yeah, every, well, it's actually, it's every third Thursday. And again, that's become a thing. But it was like when I became chair for IOD, I thought, you know, obviously there's some extremely clever, talented people that, you know, will come to these. And I just thought, what can we do that's a bit different? It's going to try and get some connection, especially as I became chair just after COVID.

PJ Ellis (06:21)

I like that, nice.

Andy Wilkinson (06:39)

And it was one of my ambassadors who's gone on to chair for another IOD region and has also set up the British Asian business community within the IOD, Abid. And Abid and I were chatting and he said, let's just do a third Thursday. And so the very first one we did would have been four years ago. And I think it was me and Abid. And we dragged another lady along who wasn't even part of the IOD, you know, just so there were three of us.

Then I thought, you know, like, well, we've got to keep going every month and every month and every month. And, you know, it's just become a thing and it's organic and people come along and it's just good fun. First of all, we were supported brilliantly by Peter at the Grand. Now we're out by Aaron at Hotel DeVin I had Birmingham Disability Festival come along and, you know, tried to get other people to give them a bit of a, some people just need a bit of a bump.

And they need a bit of a, dare I say it, a bit of a gobshite, you know, that will help corral and, you know, it's just a bit of fun, good people who can come together, talk about different subjects, connect. And mean, three guys went off and they set up a technology Tuesday coffee morning from it.

Andy (07:42)

So get back to the matter at hand. 25 years ago, you set up OWB and obviously you're now part of a broader group. Just interested in, again, your kind of sector. What problems and maybe solutions were you talking to typically for customers when you started versus what problems and solutions are you putting forward today? Has there been a big change? Technology played a big role?

Andy Wilkinson (08:07)

Yeah, that's, I think 25 years ago when we started, I think we had a dial-up and an email things like websites were early adopters were going into it and they were a brochure, and so, actually just in the way that you did business, it was all, was five days a week. It was face to face. It was,

faxes so that landscape has dramatically changed. And when I think like now, you know, how you look at it now, sort of 25 years on, in digital environment now as a digital agency, it's the pace. So it's not only, the market that's constantly changing, Meta, LinkedIn,

it's the pace and the volume of getting to market. It's that bit that I said about remaining authentic and you know, 25 years ago, above the line advertising, brochure led work, events where people got together and spoke. So it was very much, you know, it was really sort of authentic conversations. Now you're trying to keep that through lots and lots of different channels.

when I think about a website now, a client will expect a website to not only be a reflection of their brand, but also a global Salesforce that will be bringing in, you know, 10,000 leads a month and blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, so, so the expectation of what those tools are has changed dramatically.

Andy (09:27)

I follow a chap called, I think it's David Hieatt can't remember. He's got a company called the Do Lectures and also his Denim brand. But he's also got a little club you can join, called, I think it's the Fax Club. And you can only join this exclusive group if you've got a fax machine. So there's a hundred dudes and dudettes around the country with fax machines, faxing each other so that they can be part.

of this net working group, which I think is pretty cool. The point is, and my question to you is, are some of the older ways of doing things, the in-person, the written material, are you starting to see them creep back in again as a way of affecting that more personal connection that I think has been lost in recent years?

Andy Wilkinson (09:53)

I think that's great

100%, 100%. When you think about with the group that we've joined, the biggest part of DRP is delivering global events and experiences. And there has been no loss of appetite for people wanting to connect. People wanted to connect in different ways, Andy, you know, that sort of thirst for connection has to be.

sustainable, you know, we're B Corps you've got to be thinking about hybrid digital, but that physicality of bringing people together more, even more so when, you, you might get teams that are teams, but actually have never met, you know, they've met on these devices, you know, they've met on teams, whatever. So that bit about the internal comms, bringing people together, but the external piece as well, we see that more and more. mean, in fact,

there's been quite a discernible move or shift to direct marketing, print-based direct marketing. I've only this morning received a beautiful personalized bar of chocolate from an outsourced HR business. So, you know, which is quite a surprise to get. So direct marketing, there's been a change that because you're trying to, you know, cut through email and da da da da. And also,

PJ Ellis (11:08)

Yeah.

Andy Wilkinson (11:18)

that move back to print.

people want something physical something to take away, something to read, something to engage with your branding. So yeah, there has been, I think, I think a balanced scorecard approach.

PJ Ellis (11:31)

I love that. mean, that David Hieatt if I'm pronouncing that right, Andy, actually leans into what Wilko was saying there about that beautiful personal chocolate bar he received, the direct marketing campaign. He leads with great brands aren't built, they're felt. And that leans us nicely into that connectivity piece around that team that may not have ever met physically, but they feel connected.

Whilst you're trying to connect these people, Andy, for the last 25 years, and even probably more so now there's 400 of them to be connected, I assume people are showing up differently, but when you see people show up differently, is there an obvious skills gap? And if there is a skills

Is it more of a people skills gap or is it more of a tech skills gap?

Andy Wilkinson (12:12)

I think it's a bit of both. I think the tech piece is a skills gap. We are particularly big on that. We had all of our creative studios off on Monday for an AI training session, which is led by our internal L &D team. So making sure that we're up skilled on the latest tools, technologies, et cetera, for our own and for client work. I mean, that's a given. But I think that skills gap in, you know,

relevancy of making sure that people are relevant in what they're trained in, but also trained in that skills gap in some of the softer skills, making sure that those don't go. There was a brilliant piece only this morning. I don't know if you heard it on Radio 5 Live about trying to get young people into using telephones. There was a whole dial in and there was a piece about a lady who started something called, she lost her son and it's called 1K1Call.

PJ Ellis (12:55)

Wow, yeah.

Andy Wilkinson (13:03)

So you do one kilometer and then you do one call too. And there's this whole skills gap about younger people. And I see it a bit with my kids. They do not like to pick up the phone. And I see it with a lot of my younger teams as well. It's not the first point of call because the team's call will be first.

we don't improve those skills gaps, things like phone we'll automatically keep on automating. So then you get awful automated phone systems that everyone says they hate.

Andy (13:31)

So we're all dads.

varying ages, I think they range from 10 to 24, something like that. Yeah. So from your, your kids' perspective, Wilko how do you feel about the future they're looking forward to in the AI enabled landscape that we've, we've got coming up?

Andy Wilkinson (13:48)

I think that they are looking forward to an exciting future. I think that, you know, they're looking forward to a future that will automate a lot of stuff that younger people going into a job might have had to spend the first three years of their career doing some of the, I say it, CRAP that we probably all had to do, you know, all that sort of stuff. So that side, I think, will be brilliant. I think though that...

when I see them going into that sort of workplace, think younger people that work with me now, they are very work life balance focused, which is great. I think they also ⁓ really hold leadership to account. You know, they don't suffer any BS, you know, there's, there's, you know, well, we want to know, you know, I mean, in fact, DRPG, which I think is unique, I've never seen it, they run a Gen Z, next gen board.

So the main board is mirrored by the next gen board and the next gen board is cyclical. So everyone's voted in and you have to be between 18 to 24. So our apprentices get an opportunity and I think it's seven or eight people and the next gen board, they come into a board meeting and they properly will take you to pieces on stuff. And they also will take ownership for instance, our next gen board now have taken ownership of the whole employee recognition scheme.

across DRPG. So I think there are massive, massive opportunities for young people going into business still. I think there's a big part to play as well is that older people like me are open and available for mentoring. I think that's a really, really valuable part and something I love doing. we run our sparks event, which is in November, where I think last year we had 135.

young people from universities and schools come for the day where Dale puts on an amazing event talking about what are the skills that we're looking for in film, animation, live marketing, all these young people come in and we show them what great careers they can have here. And you don't have to be sat at home fiddling around on co-pilot, you know, there are amazing places to go.

travel, put on huge experiences all over the world or work on great ad campaigns. you know, so, so I think it's an exciting landscape and what we have to show them. Actually, Eliza's internship, my youngest, she's just done an internship with enterprise. And I love the internship because there's no work from home culture at all. because you're in there doing your, you know, you're in there booking in, selling leasing vehicles, you know, day in, day out. So.

PJ Ellis (16:10)

Mm.

Andy Wilkinson (16:15)

think that's great. She learned so much in a year because you're properly having to do it and show up.

Andy (16:20)

I remember Dale tell me about it, the next generation board and it kind of links in doesn't it, PJ, to the episode we did with Abbie CEO of Millennium Point when we talked about how can businesses really engage with young kids and get their ideas so they can really contribute and that hopefully people who listen to that and hear that idea will be wanting to talk to you about it. Cause I think that's such a beautiful way.

of almost reverse mentoring en masse but also getting that inclusivity as well, which I think we really need in this region

Andy Wilkinson (16:49)

I think the next gen thing is just genius. think it's absolute genius.

PJ Ellis (16:55)

I think the genius there, if I'm honest, is the fact that you as a business are clearly walking the walk as well. There's a lot of talk around setting up these next gen boards and whatever and letting them have the say. most, well, a lot of companies don't. I was one of those.

So fair play for doing that. I want to ask you an honest question, AI, right? You're an agency owner. I've been one of them.

You're navigating through a journey of different age groups, demographics, people working on different types of clients with different styles. AI will help, but what's your main feeling? Is it fear or is it excitement

Andy Wilkinson (17:32)

I think it's excitement when I come back on that other point about automating tasks. I think that side is hugely exciting. I think the real fine line is

authenticity. having that, so it can, there can be, you can see it from a mile off AI generated content or copy. it's just sounding the same. It's becoming very sort of dull. So I think the, the automation is great. I think the fatigue of seeing the same stuff is awful. So I think you have to

balance the genuine creative engagement with AI to ensure like our copywriter Lydia and our copywriting team writes beautiful, really, really rich content. And I'm not saying that you can't then put an AI tool to if it's for volume, but you still need that that real sort of, stand out, beautiful, properly wrought.

you know, David Ogilvie style copy that will make your product cuts out. But yeah, there is, I'm certainly not fearful of it. What was that? There was that brilliant quote You won't be replaced by AI, but you will be replaced by someone who's using AI better than you.

And I think that is the fear side. And I mean, I'm way too long in the tooth know, I mean, if I can get replaced by AI, brilliant. You know, I mean, that's great. I probably will be. I think I've got an avatar of me anyway. But I think it's, that, again, balanced scorecard of fear and fatigue. mean, it's, look, in 25 years of OWB, I remember that I'm pretty sure that the internet was going to do us out of business 20 odd years ago.

and it didn't. Then I was pretty sure that the Millennium Bug or whatever was going to, and all these things, you know, will, they all find a place, don't they? Manufacturing, you know, robots were going to, do you remember that famous fear ad for all the robots and stuff, you know, and it was going to completely revolutionize, you know, so you just have to be mindful of how it's utilized.

Andy (19:38)

Just moving back just to a comment you made or talking about Sparks November, which again sounds, sounds genius. And again, wanting to get my 17 year old say, come on, Sam, get you down to the studios and you'll hear a company talk about the future of work and he'll go, not another one. Oh, honestly. And work experience that.

I've seen happy in some of the bigger companies I used to work for where it's not really value adding for the kids. So if he was to come along and other kids were to come along to kind of get inspired, what would they experience? What sort of things would you be talking about?

Andy Wilkinson (20:16)

So we do, so for Sparks last year, had and Eliza, my youngest, I mean, she came along, because obviously, you know, both of my kids, Bea and Eliza spent summers and gosh knows what sat in an ad agency, you know, coloring in or doing visuals that I would then show to clients, But what would they experience? So first of all, it's the breathtaking turning up at

the studios, which are wow. And then John Harrison from OBB, you know, John PJ, his son came along as well last year. And then we give them a full immersive tour, the whole thing. So you see every area of a integrated marketing agency, which is just amazing. And then we get them all into the main studio and we have different really fast paced and fun

talks from all of the heads from comms, creative studios, live, experiential, innovation, AI, and everybody talks about, you know, what their career would look like in that. But we break it down, which is brilliant, into what roles would look like. So if you were to join an agency, do you like drawing? Do you like computers? Do you like presenting? Do you like looking after projects?

So we break it down into what those constituent parts are. And then we do three or four workshops around the building. So they can actually physically see how do we put on a major event? How do we film a beautiful piece of creativity? So we use the cinema for that. How do we deliver an integrated marketing campaign? So we get all of our creatives in, our project managers. So they go away at the end of the day. We give them a lovely lunch and all sorts of And actually encourage them to network as well, because...

You know, those, those young people, you know, some of them are great at it and some of them are not very good at it. So we host that and then they go away having experienced firsthand. This is what my career could look like. And there's not one young person that goes away and doesn't get in touch with you afterwards on LinkedIn or whatever and say, you know, can I come back for more? You know, can I find out more? But we just tried to show everybody to come along that, that, you know, you can.

that there is a really, really exciting future of work for you there. And there are lots of opportunities, but also if you want to do flexibility of work and you want to do digital and you want to be two days at home, three days in office, whatever it wants to be, we do that as well. So we try to show that really nice balance because again, that's what people want now. They don't want four or five days in an office. That's almost like the first question that gets asked in an interview.

What's your work? What's your office home balance, you know?

PJ Ellis (22:54)

I I'm sure you do know this, a lot of the gaps that some of our previous get, not so much gaps, but the responsibilities that some of our previous guests have said that employers should have or keep are the things that you are doing. So it's like the access point, you know, how do you get into this sort of work, the conversations at the right time? What could you do at this place of work? You might think you're a designer, but actually you might be a copywriter.

How soon are you having those conversations with those people Andy? I mean, are you working with schools to get the kids down?

Andy Wilkinson (23:29)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. we, we try I mean, actually genuine work experience. I mean, we've had a really good work experience. Summer so far,

So we tried to that work experience thing, we do it, we actually, and that's the really nice thing about having a people team within the agency is because they really work hard to almost to talk to that young person before they come and find out. Like we have one young person who came last week and she wanted to do film. That was quite obvious. So her work experience was based around working with our film team where she got to do some shoots, got to do some edits.

got to do some makeup, to do some, you know, so the proper in the film side. our people team really tried to work hard with what that young person wants rather than, you know, there's no longer, I mean, work experience with us isn't, you know, work experience in the bad old days would be sort of sat in the corner photocopying or whatever it was, you know. I mean, it was enough to turn you off, wasn't it? You you sat there like, what? I have to do this for 40 years, you know. It's like,

I started as a sort of what would have been called a runner in an agency in London. And I think one of my jobs was ensuring that that pink dot was on the bottom of a fax, you know, which meant it had gone. There was like a pink dot on the bottom. And I was like thinking, this is it. Is this going to be it? Is this, is this the rest of my life is looking for a pink dot on the bottom of a fax.

So our work experience is to try and also as well to give them, you we always like them to do a presentation at the end of the week and you play back, you know, we give you a pitch and you you play back or pitch it back to us what your week has been like or, and you see some brilliant stuff.

Andy (25:07)

And what are the future skills? Again, we're thinking of these school leavers, university leavers. What are the key skills you think they need to be focusing on or we need to be focusing on as responsible adults, leaders in the region to make sure they have, that they might not naturally be acquiring through school?

Andy Wilkinson (25:25)

That's a really good question. I tell you what, tell you what, actually, one of the things I think is confidence and networking. I mean, I think if that was, that should be on the curriculum. I don't know what you'd call it. You wouldn't call it confidence and networking, but that bit is showing up, you know, like you, you, whatever you say, whether it's on this format or whether it's face to face and hopefully face to face is showing up and being, you know, being confident, being able to hold a conversation and engage with somebody. I think that's number one.

I think two, there has to be an element of, I mean, you have to look at the curriculum and think where does code play in there? know, that code has to be, I'm not saying everybody needs to be a developer, but there has to be an element that you've got a genuine understanding of code. And I think the third one as well that I think is critical, maybe it's critical more in my world, is

somehow understanding creativity and what looks and sounds and feels good and lands well. Because I think so often, again, back on that AI piece, young people could just think, well, that sounds about right. And I've shoved it through ChatGPT and it sounds okay, whatever. We will become unstuck. You already see it now, all these MOOCs and HEs and stuff now, whatever this sort of learning.

you know, testing through AI, you know, so that creativity, understanding, writing context, that piece, which I suppose, I suppose would be back on my school days would be, you know, sort of English comprehension or whatever, but actually putting things together well and making a compelling clear argument, I think, I think are probably the three things, but that confidence is showing up. I mean, that has to be number one.

Andy (27:07)

Yeah. And I think I see that my two lads are a bit different. Ben, the youngest plays a lot of team sport with adults and that kind of interaction team environment really helped him. Sam's been less of a team sporter throughout, but he suddenly started working. So doing a lot of weddings, catering events. And again, that's all about team. It's all about kind of communication, but there's nothing. I think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head there around.

How do we get that in? You can't get it in for curriculum, unfortunately, because it seems like curriculum is dictated. But there is a responsible role, I think, for employers and chambers and IODs and the connectors across the region, I think, that we can definitely do there. Quick other questions. So technologically useless, which is universally known. But I, myself, has been playing around with things like Replit and Lovable.

as kind of apps that you can just talk to when they kind of develop the coding. And I'm kind of blown away by that. Not that I've done anything particularly useful with it. Is that kind of a disruptor in your industry or is that just a bit of a sideshow, those sorts of things?

Andy Wilkinson (28:17)

Uh, no, think it is a disruptor. means that, you know, I mean, it's like a lot of tools now there's, there's a huge amount of, and again, if I put my 25 year thing on this and from the beginning to now, there's a lot of tools that, you know, bazillion years ago, an agency creative, you had the IP and when Macs first came along, you know, all that sort of wonderful, uh, whatever it was, quark and photo early quite, you know, clients were like, Oh my.

you know, we can't possibly, whereas now, you know, more often than not, you know, your clients have probably got more up to date or more, more, you know, use of, of tools and things than, than even you have. And we'll be, and we'll be spinning things back to you, you know, or we're using so and so we, and you're like, really? Okay. Well, that's cool. So it is a, it is a disruptor. It means you have to stay ahead of your game and you have to think about next stage and where can we add value? And that will be in strategy and creativity and stuff that the clients might not.

and thinking differently and bring that into play. But those tools that you're talking about, I actually think they're quite good because I think that it helps create almost a sort of a deeper conversation. you know a client will sort of think, you know, a prospect or a mate or whatever will say, well, I've been using this and I've got a great bit of code or whatever and I've been having a go at this and...

PJ Ellis (29:31)

Thank you.

Andy Wilkinson (29:31)

I think it's going to be okay. And you go,

well, actually let us have a look at it, but it won't be okay because two years, you know, 12 months down the line and whatever, it's got to be compliant. It's got to be this, you're to have clients going, oh, right. Okay. So let's do it properly from the beginning. but it helps almost like educate you on the, you know, on your art, what art you bring to it. I mean, Andy, in your game, you know, you, can.

PJ Ellis (29:48)

Mm.

Andy Wilkinson (29:55)

probably you might come up against, well, I'm sure you do, come up against leadership teams who will, know, oh yeah, well, we're all about transformation, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, until you can put a separate, well, actually, this is what we do, and this is some of the cases. So I think it's more, it's a good collaboration that people are using these things, but I think we can then show our art on top of it and our expertise, if that's the right frame.

PJ Ellis (30:19)

Yeah.

And long may that continue that piece that we can use AI as that leveler or that bit of inspiration. So I've literally just been on that lovable Andy and all of a sudden I am thinking, I could potentially ask this tool to see whether it could work things out for another business venture I'm involved with. But actually I'd want Wilko to implement it because he's been, do you what mean? If I could afford you mate.

Hopefully that means to me that we'll always need people skills around our projects, experience, creative, those ideas. What's the landscape looking like at the moment? These young kids that are coming in with all these ideas and all these old boys that are still remembering those pink spot days with faxes.

Is there a huge divide in relation to what those people think good client work looks like?

Andy Wilkinson (31:11)

I there's a happy meeting ground. From the younger side, younger side, I think it's great staying on trend, up to date with technology, move to market quicker, much more sort of almost like risk averse, know, well, let's give it a go, let's see what happens. Whereas I think then you balance that with an older person like me who has experience, can balance up on the strategic side.

can balance up on actually will that really work for the client or are we doing this just because it's a nice fad? Is it just something that's like sort of yesterday's chip paper? Is this really going to deliver some value for them? And I think it's a good blending of both the younger guys with the trends, the technology, the fail fast whatever.

And then the sort of older heads that can actually does this link into strategy. Will it help the client sell more widgets? And then what you do is then you've got a really good blended approach. Cause otherwise you could just be following trend, trend, trend, trend, trend, trend, trend, trend, And actually do your customers, do your prospects want that? You know, are they looking for that? Probably not.

it's having that balance of agencies with that bazball approach, but with a little bit of Warren Gatland in there blending my rugby and cricket, obviously I couldn't think of a football.

PJ Ellis (32:34)

Mate that is a decent blend, I like that.

Andy Wilkinson (32:36)

As an Albion fan, I couldn't think of a decent

football analogy.

Andy (32:42)

This is the third Albion fan in six episodes.

PJ Ellis (32:42)

Right, maybe.

we found you all, mate. Let's wrap up on one thing, two things, one thing from me and one thing from Andy Dawson. I've always found you fascinating, well read. And I've got a feeling you'll turn around and say I don't read, but I suspect you do. What are you reading if you do at the moment?

Andy Wilkinson (33:01)

What am I reading at the moment? I tell you what I'm not reading, but I'm listening to is Shard Lake.

PJ Ellis (33:06)

Okay, what's that?

Andy Wilkinson (33:07)

⁓ It's a medieval lawyer, legal, legal, legally sort of who done it. And it's absolutely fascinating. But I tend to do two or three books. And then also I'm doing the King's autobiography at the moment, which is Alan Wynne Jones, know, the most capped rugby player ever, I think. And, and then probably

down the back of the sofa. I'll have no doubt one of my absolutely horrific seal team books. And when when anything when Libby and I are trying to choose what to watch, I'm like, what is it? Is there any shooting and you know, a bit of bit of blowing up or whatever in this? No, it's like kissing and whatever. So that's not for me then, you know, I'll go watch seal team in the other room. So yes, I sort of do a bit bit of a blend of, you know, of

of different things but Shard Lake is really good.

PJ Ellis (33:59)

I'll have a look. Have you ever used that app? Is it Headspace, the one that you can read like 10 books in an hour or something?

Andy Wilkinson (34:04)

Well, I sort of had a go at it, but I think my head wasn't big enough for it. I think you need a particularly big bonce

Andy (34:11)

My last one was, okay, I always enjoy talking to you as you know. If there's a guest that we should have on, or one or two guests, who would you nominate? Who should we have on here?

Andy Wilkinson (34:20)

Do they have to be Midlands based or they have to be or anything?

Andy (34:24)

or whatever you want,

who's going to really add value to our listeners and our kids?

PJ Ellis (34:28)

Accessible, I suppose. I suppose that's the criteria.

Andy Wilkinson (34:31)

It would be remiss of me not to say you should get Dale on here. And because just that he's celebrating 45 years in business this year. And as a, Midlands business owner, there aren't many around that doing that. And he tells fascinating stories. And as he says, it's not so much the great stories, it's the scrapes that you get out of over 45 years. So I think that that would be, that would be truly a great listen.

And I think the other one that I think would be brilliant to get on here because she is fantastic is Nabila, who is the founder of Birmingham Disability Festival. and what they're doing there in Birmingham and Aston University is supporting them and they've got some great sponsors and stuff, but what Nabila and

the rest of the team there are doing is just fascinating. you know, part of the employer convention, about improving access for disabled people and disabilities of all types. I think she would be great. She'd really tell a good story about what we're doing with the Birmingham Disability Festival. So I think those would be two really interesting people.

PJ Ellis (35:35)

That's absolutely wicked. And Daws I think we should take the boys to the Sparks Thursday. think?

Andy (35:39)

Yep, no, definitely. There's always an open door from Andy anyway.

Andy Wilkinson (35:43)

Always, always

do that. also I'll send you some details about the event that doing in November for young people, because I think I'd certainly love you to get Sam along to that Andy, I think he'd love it.

Andy (35:53)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (35:54)

Give

us a little plug on that then, mate. What exactly is that? Is that another Sparks, is it?

Andy Wilkinson (35:57)

Yeah, so that's called Sparks and that's our young people in creative event which is held at the studios. that's about 150 people that we want to get who want to develop a career in the creative arts or creative world.

PJ Ellis (36:15)

Brilliant, we'll share that then mate, because I think people will be interested in that, definitely.

Andy (36:19)

I've just realized why my screen's blurry. I haven't got glasses on.

PJ Ellis (36:24)

You know

what? And that is why yours is blurry to me, because I haven't got my glasses on. There we go. And on that note, thank you, Andy. It's been a real blessing to have you on, mate, to talk to somebody like you that not only doing so many brilliant things, but has been doing those brilliant things for so long. We're really grateful for your time,

Andy (36:28)

All right. ⁓

Andy Wilkinson (36:40)

Thank you for inviting me. Fascinating.

Andy (36:41)

Thanks, mate

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