[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

[00:00:05] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:06] Nina Endrst: Welcome to How To Be Human.

[00:00:08] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

[00:00:12] Nina Endrst: In this episode, Anna and I discuss friendships.

[00:00:15] Anna Toonk: Take a seat, clear your mind, and let's chat.

Good

[00:00:23] Nina Endrst: afternoon friends.

[00:00:26] Anna Toonk: Hi, I forgot what we were doing for a second, which

[00:00:30] Nina Endrst: is just, let's just talk. This

[00:00:32] Anna Toonk: is what we do anyway. I was like, wait a minute. And I was like, oh, right, right, right. We're doing something. We're doing something. It's that kind of day. It's that kind of day. I think. The time of year as well, you know, with the being, I always want to make some sort of like car commercial joke about it being claimed the Honda days or something, but to take, but like, even though I don't feel that crazy about the holidays or anything, I think the energy is so palpable that I constantly have to be like, why do I feel a little, like.

Cookie. And I'm like, oh, there's just so much floating around right now that it feels tough to remain present and in my body, you know? So that has been a constant reminder lately.

[00:01:23] Nina Endrst: Yeah. It's, we've got a lot going on, guys. These by we, I mean, humans, you know, it's just all of us. It's a bit relentless. I have this fun habit of checking the news every morning.

Why do you do this here? So

[00:01:40] Anna Toonk: there's no way you're having a good day after that. I

[00:01:43] Nina Endrst: mean, I manage more to exercise out, you know, I'm just like, why, why do you need to go and read all of the horror stories? Like don't you have enough just like breathing and listening to things. Anyway, we're not talking about that today.

We're talking about for rent.

[00:02:04] Anna Toonk: Yes. I have a bunch of definitions for us because originally we had said relationships and then we were like, there's no way we're going to, it was actually kind of interesting. Like we were like, there's no way we're going to be able to like, you know, talk about all the ships.

Yeah. All of that. And then I was like, dare we try? And then I was like, let's be real. Let's not do that. But in thinking about it, I was thinking about like, How often we only think about essentially like friendship or love that's it. And what she's thinking about relationships and relating. So the first definition I have is relationship the way in which two or more concepts, objects, or people are connected, or the state of being connected by blood or marriage, they can trace their relationship to a common answer.

The way in which two or more people or groups regard and behave toward each other, the landlord tenant relationship. So that was kind of interesting. Then I was like, let's look at and talk about landlords. This is the episode you've all been waiting for. We're going to really get into it with landlords landlord pod.

So an intimate relationship is an interpersonal relationship that involves physical or. Intimacy. Although an intimate relationship is commonly a sexual relationship. It may also be a non-sexual relationship involving family, friends, or acquaintances. Cool. Then friendship. Friendship, a state of enduring affection esteem, intimacy and trust between two people.

It is recognized by both members of the relationship and is characterized by a bond or tie of reciprocated affection. Do

[00:03:57] Nina Endrst: you see emphasis on

[00:04:00] Anna Toonk: reciprocated? Yes. I mean, We've been having some lessons in the streets about that. Haven't we, it lessons, I mean, we've probably should do an episode about reciprocity in general, but I don't know about, I mean, at this point, I wouldn't say I have that.

I mean, I was going to say, I don't think I have that many old friends, but I don't have that many. I would say. Prior to teenagehood, you know, like just moving around a lot, being old cleaning house, I don't know a variety of reasons. But this comes up all the time. I'm hearing about from friends and from clients.

It seems like, I don't know if it was the pan Dimmi. I don't know if it's the time of year. I mean, I'm feeling a little left out that I'm getting different friendship lessons, but it's like, all these people are learning link. Why am I still friends with this person? Like, I think part of why I like doing the definitions is it reminds us like, this is the definition of that is that what's happening in this relationship or this, you know, circumstance or whatever.

And I do so many readings for people who I think feel really lonely because. Our friends with a bunch of people that they don't feel seen by. And it's not even like, these are bad people. It's just like, they quit checking in, you know? And at some point didn't really realize like, oh, I don't have anything in common with this person anymore.

Or like, I don't enjoy my time with them, or they're not very nice to me, or like a million different things. And I'm curious, like, what do you think makes us stay in those friendships?

[00:05:48] Nina Endrst: This is like a sick joke.

[00:05:52] Anna Toonk: I'm not meaning to fuck with her, but I kind of am. I'm not meaning to,

[00:05:56] Nina Endrst: I had like a really dramatic moment this morning. I mean, really dramatic is successive, you know, maybe a little dramatic, but I've been dealing with this personally for a while. And in one particular relationship. I hit my breaking point literally this morning and why I think we stay in these relationships.

A couple of things, I think loyalty, this false sense of loyalty. Not that it's always false, but I do believe that a lot of us think about committing. In relation in friendship as okay. I'm in, I said, I'm in, they trust me. I trust them. I'm in it. That means good, bad, ugly in between, which I wholeheartedly agree with to a point.

But when we want to exit, I think a lot of people avoid it because they don't want to have the conversation, which you don't have to have fully. Right. But also, I feel like it's a lot of fear about what that says about us or are we leaving because we're abandoning someone? Is it just kind of all in our heads?

Should we stay and try a little harder? Just feel like we kind of Gaslight ourselves a little bit when it comes to leaving friendships. Yeah. And it doesn't have to end badly, you know, it really does it. It's not always going to be comfortable when I moved away to Mexico. And I realized that I was the only one keeping in touch and I'm the one who moved.

So I have no problem with that. I called people I checked in and, but when I started realizing that a lot of it was just wasn't being reciprocated. I mean, it hurt my feelings a lot. It still does, but it also just, it has to end at some point, I think we just have to be really honest with ourselves about what we want and how we want to feel when we're in relationship with somebody.

[00:07:55] Anna Toonk: Yeah. It's something I've thought about a lot is that it bums me out. We don't have more language around friendship that, you know, Romantically. We know how to have a breakup. I mean, I don't know about seeing that. That's like, that's still not going well. Yeah. And it's flawed. I'm not saying it's perfect by any means, but I hear ya.

But like we have a general framework we've roughed out to be like, I no longer want to do sex to you. You know,

[00:08:26] Nina Endrst: you know, when you got to the point where you're just so grossed out by the person, you're like, yep. It's the time it's now, the time the time

[00:08:33] Anna Toonk: has passed. I'm such a writer, diamond arguments. Like, I don't know, like no judgment. Listen, if you can do open by all means like, I just, I know I'm in trouble. Like when I start, like, if I'm with someone start like noticing other people and being like, Ooh, I'm like, oh wait, something's not, you know, cause not to say I don't have like attraction, but I'm so like singularly focused.

That's that's always a clue to me that something's up. But. But why don't we have that for friendship, you know? And I feel like with women as well, it's like, especially toxic and it's like, you either just like, let go of each other and like more and more time elapses. And you're like, okay, so are we not friends anymore?

Like what's happened, you know, or it's dramatic. I know I've either, I've had so many. I mean both. Um, my aunt decided offense and on somewhere of just like, These dramatic. Do you know how many people have broken up with it? I care a lot. If you want to end a relationship, go to Ikea with someone or especially when you're early twenties, is that real?

Yeah, it was kind of funny. Cause I would joke before going and being like, well, let's see how this ends and then it would be like,

[00:09:49] Nina Endrst: are we friends or not? Once we get past the Swedish meatballs,

[00:09:54] Anna Toonk: I think because really you have to be a team player and

[00:09:59] Nina Endrst: so amazing.

[00:10:01] Anna Toonk: So like, if your relationship or friendship was like already kind of like on the rocks, it was like, I Kia was like, let's just split it up.

Let's just explode this boat, you know, like you're going down. And so, yeah, it just became a joke and I would like point to it in the car. I'd be like Ikea, where relationships go to die. You know,

So, I mean, I'll definitely own my own part and a lot of friendships where I, but this is also like part of my thing about why don't we have language that I had a hard time, sometimes navigating little stuff that I didn't know how to say. Like that hurts my feelings or like, I know it's not a big deal, but it makes me crazy that every time we hang out, you're an hour late.

Like just stuff like that. And. I was also friends with a lot of people who were like, when I was younger, like very sensitive. So it also felt like this vicious cycle of like, if you said like, Hey, this hurts my feelings, or I don't love when you do that. Or I felt kind of left out. They would be like, oh my God, I'm so hurt that.

Like you had a problem with me. And I would be like, well, fuck, how does, how are things supposed to be better? You know? So then I'd stopped saying stuff. Cause I was like, well, people don't seem to like it when you do that. And things would build and then I'd be like, you know what, like I'm done. Like you're, you know, like I would just lose it.

Like I'm not defending myself. I'm saying this has been the pattern, you know? And I had to learn like, well, there seems to be something. Between these two, you know, either silence or uncorking. And I realized like, oh, I need different friendships. Like I need to be able to say to someone, this hurts my feelings and it can be a struggle.

Like people are like, I love that. I always know. Where I am with you, but I don't think people like love it, that I'd rather be direct. And they're like, isn't an issue, you know? And I was talking to my friend, Nan Dina about it. And she was like, I'm of two minds that in friendship, you either think you ignore everything or you talk about everything and you need to find friends who like, agree with you about that.

And I was like, Interesting. And that made me think a lot about these old people, like in really old friendships, it's like you establish those often before you like, knew anything, you know? And it's like, would you choose those people now? Like nine times out of 10, we wouldn't, you know, and like I've had that issue, like with coworkers that I became friendly with an M like, I don't have to maintain these relationships anymore.

Like I found a way, I feel a lot of guilt. I feel a lot of guilt. Like I'm abandoning people or I'm discarding them. Like that's often when I'm just like this isn't working for me. I take them to Ikea. No kidding. So I'm like, Hey,

[00:13:11] Nina Endrst: I really need a new bed frame

[00:13:13] Anna Toonk: years from now. I'll be like, Hey Nina, do you want to go to Ikea?

And you'll be like,

[00:13:19] Nina Endrst: I'll just send you your half in the

[00:13:20] Anna Toonk: mail.

I'm called her like that. It's well, but that's what I find also interesting about you is you're the personal text one and be like, Hey, no biggie. We're not friends anymore, but I will be direct.

[00:13:39] Nina Endrst: Yeah. But I think about it and agonize about it for so. Well,

[00:13:45] Anna Toonk: like so long, and then you're just like do it.

[00:13:48] Nina Endrst: So one of the reasons I feel like I personally didn't leave a lot of friendships for a long time is because I hadn't really fully admitted to myself that I changed over that I was changing or that I had the capacity to change or that changing was a positive thing.

Any of

[00:14:06] Anna Toonk: those? Interesting. Okay. Everything

[00:14:10] Nina Endrst: was so influx in my life. You know, I never knew what I was going to get walking into my office. I could be screamed at. I could be like, I free thing that day. Cause that's what they say in fashion, you're everything or that's what they used to say. And so I was like, okay, it could be a con could be amazing.

Like what's coming down the pipeline. And with my friends, I always stuck with people who I had known for years and years and years, because I felt like it was such a solid structure. And I think coming from divorced parents, you know, and people, a lot of people died when I was younger around me and I didn't feel.

Very stable in my home. So in a lot of ways, not in all ways. So I gravitated towards like that family. So for me, uh, it was family. I was like, you don't just abandon your family. Like you get pissed at them. You, you don't might not agree on things. You might have different points of view, but you don't leave because of leaving.

Hurts too much, or it's just not what I do, but the older I got and the more I, I did change and I realized I was, I was like, I don't know if a lot of these people ever really knew me and that's not their fault. It's who I presented. And I thought I was that person, you know, and part of me was, but I just stopped.

You know, wanting to kind of be in that contract and in that dynamic. And when the other people couldn't meet me and continue to show me that they can't meet me in this new space and be interested in who I am, that's when I'm like I'm done. And that's when I get like, I'm just

[00:15:54] Anna Toonk: done. Yeah. It takes years.

Yeah. I same

[00:15:59] Nina Endrst: with new people. It doesn't take me years with new people. I'm like, Hey, hi, bye. I don't have time for this shit.

[00:16:04] Anna Toonk: I agree. I'm like, you don't have that much invested in the bank of Ana. Like you can't make that kind of withdrawal. Just like exactly. Exactly. No, but it's. Yeah. Cause I've gotten better about that.

It's interesting. What you said though. I think. It's kind of funny sometimes when you look back at different friend groups or things like that, and you're like, what was that about? You know? And you're like, oh, cause I was, I was being really authentic, you know, like, not as a criticism, but it's like, oh, I was trying on a different identity.

Like, you know, I was in or stuff like that, that it's like kind of funny. I'm someone. So friends have always been important to me. I was very friendship driven as like a little kid. It's like friendships. Never not been important to me. Have you been this. Yeah. It's always been my number one. Same. Yeah.

Until recently. Yeah. I mean, I would say sorta similar until like kind of, I took the number one spot, you know, literally before now that's dropped the bomb, but I was laughing. With Nina before we started recording that I was like, I have the laziest set up. And she was like, are you in bed? Like, you know, Mike on its side, like baby, you know, like baby needed to record from bed.

But in true, like once I start, I mean, I started like joking being like I'm baby, you know? But like when I realized like a lot of my tension with people was like these expectations I had that I wasn't communicating. I didn't even realize I was making, like, didn't even realize that's what I was doing, you know, and had to prioritize myself.

Like, I think I would constantly feel like a little disappointed or let down, or I think constantly about what you said of like, I always felt like I cared too much, you know, and I really felt the same way, but I think I've been blessed with this, like very. Probably 60, 40 experience of like 60% of my friends have been incredible.

So people in friends with today, and then there's been this 40% where I'm like, what the buck, like, what was that? Was I like looking for a way to be like abused in my spare time? Like, what was I doing? You know, of just like, not even abuse, I shouldn't say that, but like just toxic of like drama or this or that.

So I found out my brother. I was an addict. And then my dog died two days later. And my, at the time, bestie drunk dialed me that night. Didn't remember my dog had died. It was just like this mess. And I ended the friendship after that and because she wouldn't really acknowledge what had happened. And I was like, I didn't really need a messy drunk emoting phone call on the same night my dog died.

And when I just found out my brother's an addict and there's a history of alcoholism in my family. And as my best friend, I would think that's something you think about to be honest. And it was this real pivotal moment for me to be kind of like. It's not so much that what she did is unforgivable or like that bad or whatever.

It felt like this really, really, really clear moment where I could choose differently for myself.

[00:19:35] Nina Endrst: That's the thing, isn't

[00:19:37] Anna Toonk: it? Yeah. Like I still love her. I think about her. There's no one I've laughed as hard with, you know, like it would be really easy to say those things aren't true. You know, like it would be so easy to just write someone off and I.

If you're willing to be really honest about relationships and friendships, it's like, if you're really showing up it is messy, you know, but I don't think that it's, I don't know, late. Harmful, maybe not to say that we don't harm each other, but like I realized I was clinging so much to this friendship in this best friendship, because I didn't really feel worthy of better.

And yet I had outgrown this kind of messy. And I think that that had been something too, like. We're friends with people we feel safe with. And I had realized, like I have all these different groups I need to. Quick kind of defending the people who pull me back places. I don't want to go.

[00:20:48] Nina Endrst: Are you seeking interconnection and thoughtful instruction with grounded humans, but don't know where to start. We get it.

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[00:21:06] Anna Toonk: It's your personal online roadmap to wellness for mind, body and soul

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[00:21:29] Nina Endrst: Well, something you just said about it, not being that bad, I think is a huge point to touch on, which is we don't have to make people the enemy. Right. I think when we break up with Xs, it's often like, ha, I'm going to have to hate you now. Yeah.

[00:21:48] Anna Toonk: Yeah. We're really good at that, to be honest, I think like you, you know, you'll get mad about something and be like , but then you're like, I sent them free, you know, like you, I think you're really good at that.

Like I had to really learn. You don't have to build a case. You can just go like, this doesn't feel good. This is not what I want more of in my life. You know? And I think it was really hard for me to see with friends. I think I always wanted to give them a pass or something and it felt, you know, like, I was being judgmental or I wasn't like fully welcomed the F the full expression of their essence or something.

And it's like, something I've tried to get better about is like, things don't always have to be a breakup, but it's like where you're at right now. Doesn't mix with where I'm at right now. Like I'm not locking the door. It's softly been shot.

[00:22:53] Nina Endrst: I need to get better about not pad blocking things. I mean,

[00:22:56] Anna Toonk: and then cementing

[00:22:59] Nina Endrst: and then moving

[00:23:03] Anna Toonk: up.

True. It's a bit true, but I think it's really interesting how much, like you. So validate that, you know, that you're just like, I've been through my process, I've wrestled it out. The decision has been made someone mix the cement it's like about to happen, you know, but does that make it harder for you to process.

[00:23:30] Nina Endrst: To process the light.

[00:23:32] Anna Toonk: I mean the laws. Cause if you, if you're cut off a friendship, like it, it is a loss. I process

[00:23:37] Nina Endrst: it. I do a lot of talking to myself in the shower about friendships, actually. Interesting. I haven't had a big friendship breakup that was bad. Well, I have, I have two tidbits. One was a girl that I worked at with.

A tabloid TV show. When I first moved to New York, it was my first job at inside edition, which is the most ridiculous place I think you could ever work. But anyway, and her and I were friends, she was from Texas. I'd never really been friends with Southern gal and she was. Amazing in so many ways and fun.

And her boyfriend was in a band and we were just like, you know, our we're each other's like saving grace at work. And I loved her truly, truly. And. This is kind of a dark term, but I found out while I was working there that an ex-boyfriend of mine who is like a very important relationship ship in my life and traumatic one had committed suicide and she had just gotten engaged.

And when she got engaged, I realized like these things about her that I didn't. Necessarily love. And so I was, I took off work. I was like really, really traumatized and upset. And I didn't really ask for a lot. I mean, there are some friends that I've asked an insane amount from in my past. Right. Like emotionally, but she was not one of them, but I was like, I really like would just like to sit and have a drink.

Just be with my friends. And she was like an hour and a half late. It was freezing by the way, it was the dead of winter. And she was like picking out fucking candles. And that's why she was late because she was picking out candles for her engagement, something, and she shows up and she's like half listening, mostly talking about these fucking candles.

And I was just like, is this real life. It's pressing on my, you know, insecurity of being of asking too much or. Having messy things happen to me or around me not being together. She's getting married. She's like figuring out her life. I'm in shambles. And now my ex boyfriend's dead and I'm like spiraling.

So I'm like quiet, quiet. We leave. I'm really upset. And I decided to say something to her and I've had a couple glasses of wine and I call her and I was just like, that really upset me, or I don't even think it started that way. I was talking to her about it. This is where this work out of legal y'all, she's like this would make a great story on inside edition.

Once those are the words that came out of her mouth and I'm like, what the fuck are you

[00:26:26] Anna Toonk: talking about? That's bizarre. That shows you how detached she was.

[00:26:31] Nina Endrst: She goes, Nina don't cuss at me. Very

[00:26:34] Anna Toonk: Southern. I was like, yeah, I was like,

[00:26:39] Nina Endrst: first of all, I'll fucking swear, whatever it wants you. And second of all.

Yeah. I also, I'm not, I don't fight with my friends. Like I genuinely don't have arguments with friends. I will have conflict, but I don't have arguments. And I was like, are you serious right now? Did,

[00:26:54] Anna Toonk: who gives a shit? I mean, she's allowed to say like, you know, you're allowed to say, like, I can have this conversation better with you.

If you're not yelling at me, I'm not saying you were, but you know, it's like, people can say like, relax, but also even if you were arguing. That's okay. Like, why do we act like this stuff? Isn't healthy. Like we know we made it, you know, so weird. So she

[00:27:17] Nina Endrst: hangs up on me and never talks to me ever again.

Do

[00:27:21] Anna Toonk: you know that see, I've had that happen.

So many times

[00:27:27] Nina Endrst: I was supposed to be one of two bridesmaids in her wedding,

[00:27:30] Anna Toonk: by the way. I mean, like, I know you have another tidbit, but I just want to add on to this to say one of my former best friends who, again, we've lived together, we were each other's, you know, Brighter dye. We called ourselves. LLPs like platonic lesbian, nicknames, life partners, like this whole thing.

So she got married at the time. I was a strange for my brother invited. I was her maid of honor. Mind you all the other bridesmaids were total bitches. It was like a shit show organizing all her shit anyway. Important though. Important tidbit. I mean, they were just the worst and I like figured it out. You know, my mom threw her bridal shower at her apartment in the city, so that people out of towners, it could be part of like the wedding festivities and out of towners, like the bride's mom could attend and stuff.

Paid for everything. These bridesmaids didn't offer up shit. We're like, oh, well, it's, it's Ana like it's the maid of honor. I'm like, uh, no, anyway, we're going to get her out of the car. We're at the church, you know, to get this bitch married and we're getting out. And my brother is outside the church smoking and I'm like, He hasn't spoken to me in over a year.

Won't I don't know what I've done. Like none of this. And I was like, oh my God. Why? Like, and I felt like such a betrayal that she would invite him. And not me. No. Wait, do not know.

So. She gets married like literally a week before my birthday. And so then I think she went on honeymoon and then came up for my birthday and she's like, You know, I think kind of like, like, you're welcome for me being here. And I'm like, well, after I spent like $3,000 dealing with your wedding, like, you're welcome.

I even like acknowledged your existence. And I confronted her and I just said, Hey, it was sort of shocking to see my brother and you didn't born me. And she's like, well, I have to invite him. I couldn't invite your mom and like, not invite your brother. And I was like, listen, it's your wedding. I don't give a shit about who you and right.

But, but I think it's weird. You did not give me a heads up. He was going to be there so I could have at least been prepared. Like, I'm your maid of honor. Like that's bizarre. She never spoke to me after. Oh, my God. It's like, you can't handle a note. Like you can't handle, like you just got married. You think?

What are you

[00:30:10] Nina Endrst: thinking? No shit. And this is not about like trashing.

[00:30:15] Anna Toonk: No, I just find it bizarre. Like, what is that? You

[00:30:18] Nina Endrst: know, I'm so confused, but it's also like, it feels a lot like shame to me and it feels a lot like. There are no tools for conflict.

[00:30:28] Anna Toonk: And it was yes, no tools for conflict. Yes. Yes.

[00:30:33] Nina Endrst: You got to get some, you got to get, you got to go to Ikea or they

[00:30:38] Anna Toonk: actually, they are not at Ikea because maybe things would have ended up different.

We have

[00:30:44] Nina Endrst: to be able to be in conflict and I get it. It's uncomfortable. I mean, I'm just now at almost 37 years old. I don't have the feeling of my like stomach dropping into my ass when someone's like, I have to talk to you.

[00:31:02] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Yeah. I know that used to send me into like a hot bath,

[00:31:09] Nina Endrst: blah, blah, blah, blah. What about, what about what? And now I'm like, okay. You know, it just because we have to take care of ourselves to be able to be in relationship with other people that doesn't mean we have to be perfect. The first hot mess friendship that I referred to was somebody who married somebody who was definitely, you know, I mean, he was a Virgin when they met, which there's nothing wrong with that.

But swear to God, like interesting. He was a freaking drummer and he was a Virgin and she like, she really like used that. I mean, I remember her calling me from a bathroom so upset when he proposed. The ring wasn't exactly what she thought it was going to be. And that was when I was like, I don't know if I like this person, like, this is not my style of person to be like, you just got engaged to your love.

And you're worried about how big the fucking ring is. He's a goddamn drummer in this was around, you know, 2008, like nobody had it shit. So my point though, was her relationships were dependent on. Silence, I think, and her being in control that is not to make her at fault. It's just to say, I had to really work on being aware of who I was in relationship with and what that agreement was because you and I were having this conversation the other day.

If I have expectations, if you have expectations that they have expectations that's on us. Yeah. And even if you do explicitly say something to someone, they still can. You know, drop the ball disappoint. You make a mistake, like being an asshole, any of these things and it all the above, but we ultimately, we have to take care of ourselves in that.

Right. But you hope, and now where I am in my life is I don't have any room for friendships that are not reciprocated. Or in ways that are really important to me. Like, I don't expect perfection, but if you don't have your own tools and you don't, and you can't have a conversation about if, and when something arises that makes you uncomfortable, then like you and I are not a good match as friends.

[00:33:34] Anna Toonk: I agree with all that. And I think something I've grown to value as I get older is also self-awareness I think, in our self-awareness reciprocity, but I also think of it as like being fed. And I think I fed a lot of other people. Either being like, I saw this and thought of you are here, you know, like I made this playlist and I mean, so much of it was like, see me and love me, you know?

Like I'm not acting like it was all altruistic or like, cause I'm just such an amazing friend. I mean, I think anything that's great about us is also where we harm ourselves. It's like for sure generosity is something I think I'm good at, but it's also where I can harm myself. If I don't ease into it, you know?

Like let people earn access to like your gifts, you know? So Nina and I have issued a challenge to ourselves of no giving advice, unless explicitly. And that's why we do a podcast where we give you guys passively. But, um, we're just assuming y'all are asking you're consenting to the city. You downloaded it.

But I think that as much as I wanted to be seen, I liked also. Like I used to tell when I first started going to therapy, I told my therapist, like, I felt like I had put myself on an island and it felt really safe for a long time, but now I wanted off the island and I didn't know how, you know, In friendships.

I think I had become like the Oracle living on the mountain, you know, and dispensing advice and knowledge and you know, all this stuff. And I thought, and now I'm like, I don't want to know anything about you like that. You don't know about yourself. Like, I want you to tell me who you are. I don't want to tell you who you are.

You know? Cause like my opinion, isn't really relevant. I need the information to figure out if this works for me, but I can't be like. Friend advisor. And that's been something I've had to really navigate that it's a role that I'll fall into because there's an illusion of safety in it, or purpose or organization always be needed.

You know, like it works with my abandoned shed quite nicely. If like, if I'm needed, then they won't leave me spoiler. That's how that works, you know, but it forced me to show up in a different. Way to be like, oh, well, if you can be willing to navigate some of your discomfort and relinquish the need for control and really show up as who you are and be authentic, then you can connect and then you don't have to worry about like, Oh, I can only be in relationships I can control, or I can only be in relationships if the person is messier than me, you know, like all these different ways that I think when we're trying to figure stuff out, it's like, well, no, I don't think most people are trying to like go through life and like suck, you know, like it's for a variety of reasons.

We do this stuff, I think because we're just doing the best we can. So. And looking at stuff that wasn't working for me, I had to ask myself, what part am I playing? Cause I think a lot of people miss in any relationship and any friendship, there are two people. So like, no one's totally innocent or very, very rarely do.

I think someone is completely innocent. You know, even if it's like, Oh, things came to a head or whatever. In the case of my bridal bestie, like, I don't think I'm innocent. I think she was tired of taking care of me. And I think I had asked her to take a lot of care of me. I was working a lot of shit out wasn't in therapy yet.

Oh no. You know what I was at that point, but I think she was worn out. And so it was a good, it was, I think she felt like I've given you so much care and now you're complaining about your bro. Like, fuck you, you know, I mean, that's kind of my theory about it. I had to be willing to look at all of it in order to also not repeat it and to get different in my relationships versus just being like, can you believe she did that or whatever, and that's really hard and painful, but a big thing I realized now is like the best people that I feel the best with have a certain level of self-awareness.

And I'm curious, and it's like, we do the same work. How has that played into your friendships? I mean, it's

[00:38:19] Nina Endrst: changed everything for me because I became acutely aware of my shit and

[00:38:27] Anna Toonk: also

[00:38:28] Nina Endrst: rude. It's so rude that it is so incredibly rare that at this point in my life, I don't look at how I could have been wrong and not in a way of.

Critiquing myself, just for the sake of doing so, but to see it from other people's perspectives to understand like a more balanced kind of fair, you know, summary of the situation, you know, it's also changed what I accept and what I think that I'm worth and. I really can't compromise with. I think there's one thing for me, that's really difficult and friendships, which is I cannot do.

Fake. And I've never been able to, I don't do like surface talking, well, physically like shut down. It's just not something I'm comfortable doing and really know how to do it aside from like the person at the coffee shop. But even then after like five seconds, they're like, why am I telling you my life story?

But it's less about me. I think I was manipulative without understanding that I was being

[00:39:43] Anna Toonk: me.

[00:39:44] Nina Endrst: Yeah. That's a lovely. Come

[00:39:46] Anna Toonk: to terms with, oh, I, a friend actually pointed it out was like, it was about a guy that I definitely had feelings for, but was being like, what else? We're friends. It's totally cool. But I just melt down anytime.

He doesn't like, love me. She was like, you know, you're being really manipulative. Right? Like more,

[00:40:08] Nina Endrst: that's a word perception. Other

[00:40:10] Anna Toonk: people. I was like, no, that's for outside the circle, you know? And she was like, you're saying one thing, but you're doing another, and you're mad that he won't give it, like you're being manipulative.

And I was like, but it was, she was right. She was correct.

[00:40:28] Nina Endrst: Nobody's ever pointed it out to me. I don't think, let me tell you. I know I'm sure they have. I'm sure my parents have, cause they love to tell me this shit that I do wrong, but I think what I realized through my work really is how subtly I was manipulating things without knowing it in being the person that people needed.

And that was really kind of icky to me. I wasn't explaining it, but it was still something that I held onto it and gripped.

[00:41:01] Anna Toonk: That's so fascinating. You say that because I think I was doing the same, but didn't realize it because it was more connected to my emotional baggage and it was like to feel safe or to feel.

In connection or it was emotionally driven, but it wasn't like to gain, you know, I wasn't trying to like get their money or what, you know, so I didn't see it as stay.

[00:41:29] Nina Endrst: Right. Yeah. Almost like didn't, it didn't occur to me for the longest, because I was just like, this is what a great friend does. A great friend.

Yes. Is someone who overextends themselves. And, but then with my shit, like I remember calling people in my twenties. I mean, it didn't even occur to me to be like, do you have time to listen to my shit about my ex-boyfriend for the 10 million fucking times? I mean, I am so deeply embarrassed the same about, oh, I'm S I'm cringing at the amount of conversations and one of my best friends, who's still my best friend to this day.

Like her and I had. The most obnoxious, like long, like years and years of just like the time wasted, but it was like a mutual understanding, right? Like, but with some friends, I almost was like, oh, you got me. Right. Because I've listened because I'm like always there for you and always will be there for you.

So I don't have to. Do any of my due diligence and check the boxes. Like I can just unload on you. And that is so not. Okay. Yeah.

[00:42:44] Anna Toonk: I mean, I have some friends where it feels like we have a rhythm where it's like, maybe one dinner's about me and then like the next dinners about them, you know, like it's never had to be like monitored. It's just worked out that way. You know,

[00:42:58] Nina Endrst: it's like grabbing coffee, like you got it, then I'll get

[00:43:00] Anna Toonk: it.

Yeah. But then like, it's interesting. Like, I feel like whenever you start like paying a lot of attention to things. Never a good sign, you know, like you're like, Hmm. Like this has been talking about herself for 40 minutes and I'm like, well, why does that bother me with this person, but not another? And it's like, oh, well it's draws, you know, like with lots of other people, it's like, oh, I trust.

And I was seeing about, I had a realization the other day that like, I didn't have to learn how to be emotional or deal with. Or how to feel my emotions. I had to learn how to like, process my emotions. And I was like saying to my therapist, I was like, oh, like I thought I. Was this like glacier that had to melt or something.

And actually, I was just like incredibly, emotionally deregulated. I felt so much faucet. I was like, I had no idea what to do or where to direct it or how to ground it. Or, and she's like, I would agree with that, you know? And it was just really funny that I was like, oh, this I've actually like, not understood myself.

Like, I didn't realize like where all of this began. And I agree, like I think back, I think back to one of my oldest friends back in, I think back to the patience and kindness that Megan has shown me sometimes at points in our friendship of like keeping her up all night, like talking about my fucked up family when she's on vacation with us and she left me and I'm like, that's a true blue friend, you know, mine's Liz,

[00:44:36] Nina Endrst: Liz, if you're listening, that's you just like.

The CA and I'm always like, oh, please talk about yourself. Like to this day, I'm like, please talk about yourself. We need to make up for

[00:44:47] Anna Toonk: last. Never brought it up again was never like, remember that time when you desperately needed a therapist. And yet it was me, you know, like, cause I think. Got it. You know what I mean?

Like I think she could see the situation and was like, I'm always so afraid of being a narcissist, you know? And I think back to some of that and I'm like, oh my God, I was such a narcissist. And I do think I was really narcissistic in my twenties of just being like so consumed with my pain and wanting to feel better, you know, and a huge way that a lot of that was playing out.

Friendships, you know, of either like meeting someone kind of falling on friendship, love with them and then being like, oh my God, you're flawed. I don't know what to do with that. You know, like just so much of this stuff that I'm sort of like impressed with, like who's left at this point. But I think a lot about like how so much is.

Like, do you agree about sorta, like, I think you can be very different in terms of, you know, how you move through the world or all of that kind of stuff, but it's like, you have to be philosophically, um, similar and I read, I love ask Polly it's Heather having a little whiskey. I never know how to pronounce her last name.

And I think that's close. I think. Yeah. I mean, I don't, and I don't wanna say I'm like a language expert. And so she now has a sub stack where she, and it's, it's an advice column. And someone had written in, I kid you not Nina. I, I was gonna tell you this. And then I was like, save it for the pod. So this morning, what do I have from ask Paulie is my new friend group toxic.

And she says, don't sponge up everyone else's shame and make it your own. But in answering this question, it was like really interesting, you know? That she was saying like, kind of like maybe it's everything she goes like sometimes meeting new friends is exactly like falling in love. You want to tell them everything you want them to tell you everything you want to spend all of your time together, go away for weekends, confess everything that flows through your mind, but then there's a shift and you realize your.

New friends aren't perfectly open and accepting and comfortable in their own skin. Or maybe they're just at a stage when they'd rather gossip and stir up shit than really commune in an unquestioning way. Or maybe they're the messiest little bitches on the block, or they don't take anything seriously at all.

Or they hold everyone at arms length or they're afraid of intimacy and the obligations that come with making real friends. Here's the thing, though. It's still nice to be in love and meet new people and have fun. It's still nice to feel boundaryless. She was like talking about link necessary. She goes like, uh, like maybe you didn't do anything wrong.

You can decide I wouldn't do that the exactly same way. If I repeated it, she goes, you're in a few sieve person who leaps before looking. Sometimes I'm the same way you can make small adjustments, hold back a tiny bit more, protect yourself, feel out whether a person can stand tears on the phone or not many can, but that doesn't add up to a story where everyone else is cool and right.

And find. You are the problem. Wow. That's

[00:48:05] Nina Endrst: a real great paragraph.

[00:48:07] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I mean, I love as poly so much cause she takes these big things and breaks them down in a way and it makes it funny. But I think, I didn't know how to accept myself. And I felt so much shame when I was younger that I was like fringe, you can conquer all, like, I think friendship was like my suburban for love in a lot of ways.

And it was so threatening. If there were cracks, it was so threatening and it was so much easier to think. I was the problem versus like to allow nuance. And the more that I don't personalize things and allow nuance as I get older, it seems to work and at least feel better. So I'm curious too, if you have stuff that you've gone, oh, if I allow for this, like, it seems easier.

[00:48:59] Nina Endrst: Yeah. I mean, I think if I allow for space, I think I used to be very much. Addicted to like how often I spoke to somebody

[00:49:14] Anna Toonk: and like instilling meaning in that too. Like there was a lot every day, maybe not every day, but it wasn't a stalker.

[00:49:23] Nina Endrst: I would find myself counting. I think it was a bit of a trauma responsive and I still do that, but I remind myself.

Very quickly, like, I'm like, oh, this much time has gone by this much time has gone by, like, what does that mean? It means it's adding, it means we're no longer, but with some people. So as I've matured

[00:49:42] Anna Toonk: as a Mateusz,

[00:49:45] Nina Endrst: I've really like released meaning from that. However, what I have given more meaning to is. If somebody is showing you that you're not a priority in their lives.

It's okay to see that and not dismiss it as, oh, they're just busy or, oh, they have a life too, which is all very true. It

[00:50:06] Anna Toonk: can be both. You cannot be a priority and they can be busy, but Ooh, that is. Stellar stellar advice right there, because let me tell ya, I've wasted a lot of time and caused myself a lot of hurt by trying to avoid that truth of like, I'm not a priority to this person.

And I've been like, oh, did you need me to serve up my best Anna, a little bit more to there, like

[00:50:35] Nina Endrst: somebody pick up the pool of wax. I know I am on the floor because I've just melted it. Yeah, a poll of my own. You're just not for some people and I'm not for some people. And that is okay now. And that's where I become seemingly like a cutthroat bitch, but also like I'm clearly not a priority for you and that's okay.

Like let's just call it because I'm a firm believer of really calling my energy back from places. It doesn't need to be. And for me personally, a lot of that comes in wrapping things up. So I like closure, you know, it doesn't always have to be that way. I don't want to be selfish about it, but if my energy is constantly in the like, oh, let's catch up soon.

And like, let's not, you know, like let's just not, let's just not do that. There was a friend that I was very close with when I was growing up. And then we had a falling out and then like many years later, probably like 10 years later, I got a written letter from her in the mail in Mexico, no less, which by the way, we did not have a mailbox.

So she had to get in touch with me and then send it to like the place in town. And I had to go pick it up. It was all very poetic and it was this long handwritten list. With an apology. But what she said was like, in this particular instance, I didn't want to see you because I didn't want to see me. And

[00:51:59] Anna Toonk: that's nice.

That's real nice. Like, regardless of what happened, like that's a beautiful thing to have reflected. She's

[00:52:07] Nina Endrst: amazing. And she really meant a lot to me. And that was a friendship that like really stung when it wasn't there anymore and it's different now, but I feel like. Be in my life forever because I let it go.

And I released her with love and I let her back in with the same, but it was just what space had allowed, you know, and what like perspective and time and healing can do sometimes. But also just because somebody is not in your life anymore, it doesn't mean you don't want them to succeed. It's just sometimes isn't healthy to be connected anymore at that time.

[00:52:43] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I've learned that. Sometimes when I'm hurt, I just need to detect. And you can't always like repair something when you're also hurt, you know, like sometimes you do have to take a step back, you know, like, who knows if she had sent you that letter, like, you know, right after things that happen, you might've been like, okay, like you couldn't have gone about this different, you know, like it's like sometimes things do need time, you know,

[00:53:12] Nina Endrst: just lots of time and lots of phases of life.

So I think my last piece of advice personally would be. Just be there for you. And I really do believe that you call in or are put in the path of good friends when you're your own best friend as cheesy

[00:53:32] Anna Toonk: as it sounds. Yeah, I think it might mean, and to be honest, like, I'm going to agree with that because I think you also.

Have really helped me with that. Like, I was starting to do that already. When we met, I was sort of like, oh, I think a lot of things would go a lot easier if I just was my own best friend. Does anyone ever heard of this? You know, like I'd heard it, but I was like, yeah, but I mean, like, I mean, I don't, I'm just asking like people who don't have.

Yeah, I kind of, or like, I think because of my fear of like being a narcissist, I was like, that's what, it sounds like, something like a narcissist would say, like, I'm so great. I want to be best friends with me or something. I don't know. And I was like, no, it's a way to have your. Back. It's a way to establish, like this is the standard of friendship expect to hit, you know, or like I did find the more I did that, it did change my relationships without me having to do a lot of heavy lifting.

And it's just kind of a truth that I think it's taught me more to navigate my discomfort around being my, my own best friend versus. Denying it, you know, like I've just gotten a lot more out of it and it has shifted my relationships for the better. So I would say is Nina's test case now,

but I'm like try the Nina best being your own best friend method. It works. No, but I agree with you. I think. You've taught me a lot about that in terms of calling your energy back from where it's not serving you. And I think, cause I have a lot of energy in a way, even though I talk about being tired all the time, that I don't think I realize how many parts of myself I had done it around town.

And the more I started to call it back and keep calling it back. And even with you, like, you're quick, if I'm like, I don't know if this is working and you're like, yeah, I don't think it is either. Okay. Should we, should we delete it or should we not do online? Wow. You know, cause like I just wrestle with shit so much more that it's like, oh my gosh, like you can just do so much more that I can even just be a better friend to the people I do have versus worrying about the friends that I don't, you know, or whatever, with the potency of my energy being recollected as

[00:55:48] Nina Endrst: when, Ooh, let's stop there.

There's nothing else that could be said. Boom, done. Beautiful sentence.

[00:55:56] Anna Toonk: Thanks everybody.

[00:56:01] Nina Endrst: See you next

[00:56:01] Anna Toonk: time

that's offered today. So if there's a topic you want us to discuss, please submit it on our website@thesoulunity.com slash how

[00:56:14] Nina Endrst: to be human. If you want to connect with other thoughtful humans, please join us at the soul unity listeners. Get two weeks free by going to our website and visiting our.

[00:56:24] Anna Toonk: Thanks for listening.

And remember we're guides, not gurus.