Foreign.

Welcome to Consulting for Humans.

You're with Mike and Ian.

In each episode, we explore a new topic that gets to the heart of what makes consultants happy and successful.

And on the Consulting for Humans podcast, it has been our mission to add just a little bit more humanity to the lives of consultants.

And you know what?

We love bringing the skills and perspectives of consulting to human lives, too.

Yeah.

So if you're a consultant who's trying to be more of a human or a human who's trying to be more of a consultant, then we think you're just our kind of person.

And this week for you who are just our kind of person, we have an announcement.

And in many ways, it's a sad moment because after one year and 33.

No, make it 34 episodes, plus a few more if you count the luminaries and stuff.

We are stopping regular production of the Consulting for Humans podcast.

Yeah.

Today will be our last regular episode, though we're not ruling out the possibility of jumping back in and making some special episodes in the future.

Right.

So with that little sadness in our hearts.

But looking ahead, we're going to make today's episode a celebration of some of our favorite bits that we've done in the course of making the show, looking back on some of those personal favorite moments.

And of course, we're going to be thanking people who've helped us along the way.

Yeah.

We're going to try to reach back those favorite moments, particularly things that have inspired us from your questions and your prodding and poking us to dig a little deeper, go a little farther.

We're going to talk today, thinking back on the paradox of a perfect consultant, helping actual humans give strategic advice like consultants generations from Boomer to Z.

One minute recommendations, learning, and a few other things besides.

Excellent.

Ian, let me start with you.

What have been your favorite or one of your favorite moments from Consulting for Humans?

Well, Mike, it's been great looking back over all the episodes and seeing the range of topics that we've covered, the good times that we've had, putting the sessions together, some of the great interviews that we've had as well.

But I was enjoying kind of scrolling through the back catalogue and going right back to the beginning in that first series of episodes on the Perfect Consultant, where we had all these different dichotomies.

And the dichotomy that I really liked was the discussion about the difference between ambiguity and clarity.

Should a perfect consultant be okay with a little loosey goosey around the definitions of things, or should the perfect consultant strive for Perfect, crystal clear clarity in all things.

And A, I really enjoyed that conversation.

And B, as I've looked back on it quite a few times since.

And I think that this paradox of perfection being neither ambiguity nor complete clarity, that really gets to the heart of how difficult it is.

Bring out your tiny violins, people.

How difficult it is to live in the skin of a consultant.

And I think it goes to the heart of some of the big tensions that we have between us consultants and our clients.

And it's also intriguing.

Lots of these kind of paradoxes or challenges.

Have an answer.

You can come up with a consulting process or a thinking framework that will probably help you.

And this one, though, you can't really apply a single formula or a framework to get around the fact that we and our clients have different attitudes to ambiguity and correctness and completeness.

Yes, you do need to be really clear about scope.

We when you're first writing a proposal or when you're contracting and kicking off a project.

But I don't think there's any one perfect answer to how do you choose between ambiguity and clarity?

You've got to be able to bring both.

And how that's going to work out isn't going to depend on what's written in the contract.

I think it's going to depend on the people, the people on the consultant side, the people on the client side, how they see themselves, how they see the work, what it is that makes them anxious, and what it is that they think that they need to relieve that anxiety.

And this is starting to sound a bit like therapy.

And I don't want to go too deep, too far, but I do think this is a really fascinating paradox.

Unlike the very best paradoxes, it leaves you thinking over and over again about like, how am I in these situations?

How do I adapt?

When are my clients going to be happy with what I do and when should I watch out?

Well, I think, you know, sometimes it's nice when we're reading, you know, great books to learn from when we're, you know, having conversations and kind of look back and say, well, what's the word that you hear over and over most in this book?

Or what seems to be popping up in this conversation.

I'm thinking over years and years and years of consulting, you know, what.

What answer has come up most often for me, it either, you know, being answered when I'm asking a question or when I'm answering.

And that's.

It depends.

And I think it gets to exactly what you're saying that you know so much of the truth here is in paradox in both end, not either or.

Yeah.

And I guess that's been good for me because it keeps me challenging.

Like, am I making an assumption that I'm doing it the right way?

Because I'm doing it the right way.

And you know, should I look at my own choices and my own attitudes to these things with a bit more of a skeptical eye.

And I think for anybody at any career stage, I think that's a good thing.

Yeah.

I couldn't agree with you more.

So I'm digging the paradox between ambiguity and certainty.

What are you digging on?

Mike, what's been one of your favorite moments from our episodes here?

Well, boy, you know, we've been thinking about this, talking about this a bit over the last week or so and I may be suffering a little bit from the recency effect, but I'm also, I think moved by how important this topic has become for our clients and how much it's taking of our, you know, kind of our time and focus.

This strategic partner series that we did, you know, it was a, I guess a five parter and it kind of highlighted our attempt to speak to this consultants and humans, which was a big part of my draw for doing consulting for humans.

That consulting skills, you know, thinking back on me and my life and my career, so beneficial to me in all parts of my life, not just in my career in consulting and non consulting times and jobs and the things that happen.

And it's funny speaking of the recency effect though, as I, and I guess it's because we're saying, you know, our number one, this isn't necessarily our absolute top, but it's that first top of mind thing.

I just really loved our riff on learning here, you know, when we're talking about how good consultants and good humans learn.

So you especially, you jug into this discussion of systematic learning and mental maps and assumptions and you know, and I think we wove in there, as we have in so many episodes, the superpowers of active listening and emotional intelligence.

So all of these things really hooked my in capital letters ending quotes for humans side so that, you know, that's been, I've learned so much from the consultants and humans I've worked alongside of, especially you on these things.

So I've loved that part.

Thank you.

That's great.

And you're right, there's some threads that we, we've come back to and picked up a lot.

Not because we're predictable and we've got nothing extra to say, but because they're really, really foundational.

I think that's a really great, great analysis.

Let's keep going then.

With favorite moments.

I was looking back through the back catalog and if I was going to award a prize for the episode whose topic has come up the most often in conversation since we first recorded it?

It's got to be the actually not one episode, but the series on the generations Boomers, Gen X, Millennials and Gen Z.

With a special thank you and a special shout out to Mafa Escobar and Amani Khadiya for being our willing exhibits, our lab rats as the token millennial and the token Gen Z.

It's been a topic for a while.

Maybe it's just a symptom of me being older and what age and stage my kids are at, but this has come up again and again, not only in my family, but also with colleagues.

Looking at the dynamics in teams, looking at the way firms whole practices are faring in working with each other.

I think that of course the generational differences blur and overlap.

So there's not a clean boundary between Boomer and Gen X for example, but the large scale trends that we picked out that lots of people have been analyzing and picking out in social science for the last 20 years, lots of these large scale trends and differences I think do have a clear pattern in real life.

It's been surprisingly consistent.

The more I work with people who are Millennials, for example, or Gen Z, the more clearly I see some of the changes and the differences.

And therefore, by the way, the more clearly I see how like I've got to change my perspective and my objectives a little bit.

Plus just a few times I kind of grit my teeth and think I wish they would change their perspective.

That's probably a vain hope.

It's funny, it reminds me, I went to one of the theater group's children's workshop production, you know, after taking classes for a good while.

They've done this production, they did Bye Bye Birdie.

I don't know that anybody knows this one, but they had a fairly older teenage woman or girl that was singing alongside a very young short guy and the husband and wife in this production.

So they cast according to who was there and this little guy is singing what's a matter with kids these days?

And I just loved it.

But I thought, you know, I'm going to ditto your thing on this Whole Generations piece that I loved those episodes.

I loved our guest.

I loved really learning more about that and especially was intrigued about the whole idea of starting in consulting in Covid and so back to that one.

And I also.

And this is just sentimentality.

So this is a good Boomer thing, I think I'm representing, I think was, you know, one of my.

Episode 13.

We talked about dressing for Success and we had these great discussions about how this has changed over the years, as well as working in the office, working at client sites, the fact of how much we are on and off client sites and not the difference between the US and Europe in different parts of the world, different industries.

I think we talked about Coors brewing and finance and tech.

And so for me, it was a great trip down memory lane, bringing back that first Apple IBM meeting before many of our other conversationalists were born, I think of for some of the shows.

So that whole idea of dressing for success especially capped off by thinking about, you know, our Covid Zoom meetings and our state address and undress in some of those.

I don't know whether that's a high or a low watermark.

What do you think?

Well, it's a good thing that you and I are not on camera right now because neither of us is particularly spiffly turned out today.

I think I just about remembered to shave, to be honest.

But yeah, it's the different times and the different environments have made a difference to how we all are and, like, how we all get ready to face the day.

Ah, goodness me.

For somebody who grew up in the 60s and said, Never trust anybody over 30.

Hey, kids, I get where you're coming from.

That's taken a while.

Goodness me.

So, more favorite moments.

I like the Dress for Success episode as well, especially because we got some thoughts from Mafe and Tish.

I thought that was great.

Exactly.

That were awesome.

There was another series that really stuck in my mind.

Not so much a series as a theme that came up a few times, this idea of the One Minute Manager.

And I was really touched by how much we got out of revisiting that.

A very ancient kind of almost management trope, but how much it brought to the surface for us.

And I really loved making the One Minute Recommendation.

Just giving ourselves that opportunity to try and say, well, what if you could make a One Minute recommendation?

Funnily enough, that's also an idea that's come back to me a couple of times since we recorded that episode.

I'm busy incorporating it into a teaching program for a client that's a pharma company right now.

And the general takeaway, I guess there is that challenging yourself to deliver anything in constrained time is a great discipline, especially if you can focus on one perspective.

If you can focus on the needs of the recipient or the audience rather than on the, the needs and the agenda of the deliverer.

Being able to tell somebody what they need to know about what they need to do, why it's important and what the contingencies are.

To say that in a minute is good stuff and I'm always pleased when I listen back to that little moment.

Nice, nice.

Well, you know, I really enjoyed.

We looked at a number of classic consulting books and I loved that.

I also love, you know, we did a one minute treatment of delegation, scope and as you say, recommendations.

And I think that that recommendation episode, if I'm remembering right, was linked to our final Luminaries episode.

So it had a particularly poignant moment for me and I think, you know, you kind of just pointed at it.

Yet it's worth recapping that one minute recommendations advice because you, you know, when we were talking about this, it just gave me kind of a one up going, you know what, I really need to bring that back too for another client that we have.

So this is awesome.

This idea that said, include a clear problem statement, direct actionable recommendations, supporting evidence and implementation timeline, expected benefits, primary risks and mitigation and next steps.

Now going back and you know, saying all that again, it reminded me of my fondest one minute memories, which were throughout all those episodes because, you know, we would come up with these things and work with them and think back about what we've done in the past.

But you actually delivered them all in every episode in one minute.

And I never, I would always put that stopwatch on and I couldn't get you.

You were awesome.

I love that.

It was a joy hearing that it's fun.

But you know, let's get some perspective here.

What was missing from the whole school of thought of recommendations in consulting was not an overexcited, caffeinated British guy talking too fast like that was not the magic ingredient.

But anyway, it was good fun, like you say, Mike.

And you know what?

You can do a lot in a minute.

Certainly didn't feel like we needed PowerPoint slides or anything, right?

It was great fun.

And Mike, I'm not going to dwell on things that were not fun because to be honest, the vast majority of it was excellent.

I will say I'm relieved that we don't have to come up with a holiday special episode again.

I think that might have been my idea.

I'm not in a hurry to repeat it.

The consultant holiday gifts were fun.

And by the way, listeners, if you haven't heard them.

Go and check out our holiday 2024 special.

In some ways, it's a riot, but I think that was probably a one off.

Well, and it's perennial.

I mean, how much a consultant and I guess exactly.

Exactly.

Well, we'd like to say some thank yous.

Right, Mike, who's on our thank you list?

Well, absolutely.

To our P31 colleagues.

Number one, we've taken time away from our P31 work to do this.

Tish Maffe and great interviewees gave us great support and ideas throughout the show.

Yeah.

We also want to thank all of the folks who came and interviewed with us, especially Amani, who I mentioned, Natalia Sheff, who did a great piece for us on networking.

We thank you.

We hope we can collaborate with you in the future.

We wish you well and it's been great to have you on the show with us.

And to our excellent listeners, those of you out there now, this minute, those of you all the way across the show, including those of you who joined our luminaries here, thank you for your attention, your feedback and your support.

And Ian, we have one guy that's in all our podcasts we couldn't live without.

No, that's right.

I want to say thank you to our editor.

Just like in our previous ventures, you've been an absolute, the bedrock of the quality and the cadence of us getting the podcast episodes out.

We really appreciate this.

It's not goodbye, but au revoir.

I think you're going to find Sam.

Right?

Yeah.

So many of you don't know this, but we do have to have a special shout out and a thank you to the supporters of the lovers whole a Patrick o' Brien podcast.

You know, who've been supporters, you know, for many years, not only the four years when we were actively producing content for that, but who have continued to support that.

As new Patrick o' Brien readers find that podcast every day, your support has allowed us to bring consulting for humans to life.

Thank you very much.

Amen.

They really have.

And let's talk about what's coming up next.

Mike, where are Ian and Mike going if we're not just drifting away into the Internet?

Ethereum.

Right.

The bottom line, Ian, is that part of what's happened is time has gotten really constrained.

Strategic partnerships have become an ever increasing part of our research, our consulting, our training, our implementation, our coaching.

You know, it's something we've worked on over a number of years, but these last few years, it really has just blown up.

And the benefits realized by our Clients across the globe inspired us to share these approaches more broadly and will be the subject of an upcomin early 2026 book by our colleague Mafi and Ian.

You and me, Exactly.

We've got a lot of time going into that, so strategic partnerships, the related book, all of that work across the globe here.

Absolutely.

So if you're interested, watch out for that.

If you follow us on any of our social media, you'll get to find out what Ian and Mike are up to.

What's happening with the rest of P31.

We're all on LinkedIn.

There's some of our stuff on Instagram as well that will also clue you in as to when the book comes out, and we really hope that that's of interest to some of you.

And Mike, like I said, goodbye, but not au revoir.

I think you and I might be dipping our toe back into the world of podcasting in, let's say, a different venture.

Right?

Yeah, exactly.

So podcast fans, podcast fans more broadly, watch out for us getting back into something we worked on before this podcast.

Matter of fact, we just mentioned it a few moments ago, so maybe to make that a little less cryptic, think the Royal Navy, that is the British Royal Navy, Ian would say.

What are you talking about?

Is there any other?

The 1800s.

Think about Master and Commander, the Russell Crowe movie, and the subject of Ian's other forthcoming book.

And I think we'll just have to leave that as one of those cryptic cliffhanger moments.

Right?

Right.

Mike, it's been lots of fun to look back on where we've been with these episodes with our great listeners.

It's been also fun to look ahead as well.

Where's your head at as we get to the end of the main episodes here of consulting for humans?

Well, as you well know, consulting is ultimately about helping others and helping ourselves see possibilities that they or we couldn't see before.

And I think thinking back on all this, you and I would agree that if this podcast has done that for even one of you, perhaps help you see yourself as the consultant or strategic partner you're continually becoming as a human, becoming more of a consultant or giving you the confidence to tackle extremely challenging project, or even just reminded you why this work matters, then every conversation we've had here was worth it.

Absolutely.

Keep asking better questions, keep on learning, keep making your clients impossible problems just a little bit more possible.

That's going to make their unreachable or unimagined opportunities just a little bit more reachable.

As consultants, you're going to become a little bit more human, and I think that would be a great outcome for all of us.

So one last time, this has been Ian and Mike, and we're signing off.

Thank you so much for listening to the Consulting for Humans podcast.

The Consulting for Humans podcast is brought to you by P31 Consulting.