0:00:05.3 Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vickie Brett.



0:00:08.9 I'm Amanda Selogie. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.



0:00:19.3 Each week, we're gonna explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others... 



0:00:25.8 And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field.



0:00:33.1 Welcome back, listeners. We're delighted to have Tracy Baynes back on during this time when a lot of our juniors and seniors have gotten their responses back from colleges. So we're just so delighted to have you back, Tracy. We had such a wonderful time with you last time talking about all the wonderful work that you do. Thanks for coming back on.



0:00:54.5 Yes. We are a college access and leadership program for low-income high school students, and we specifically work in Arizona. So we work in Tucson and Phoenix, Arizona, and some of the outlying rural areas. So we're working with students from sophomore year all the way through high school graduation, really guiding them through every step of the college preparation and application process. And then within that, we have summer leadership experiences like our signature three-week leadership to Alaska that we have our students do. So it's a combination of a really comprehensive program to prepare students for success in college. Because what we say is, it's not about going to college, it's about getting a college degree.



0:01:39.0 Absolutely. And I know that the emphasis inadvertently from potentially school personnel or even parents is just to get there, and what do you do when you get there?



0:01:49.0 And students are going to face challenges throughout their college time, their college career and you've got to have the skills to be able to navigate those challenges. And one of the most important skills is just self-advocacy skills.



0:02:03.5 I think that colleges mimic their own communities and they do mimic what it is to be in the "real world" a bit more, the safeguards are not there necessarily. Your parents aren't waking you up to get you to school and driving you, you're either living on campus and making sure, maybe rethinking those 8:00 AM classes, I don't know. Those are kinda hard. I learned that lesson after first quarter. [chuckle] But yeah, I remember you talking about even the excursion, if you will, the summer leadership as such a wonderful opportunity because for a lot of kids that's probably the first time they're leaving the State of Arizona. And so giving them the opportunity while still having some of the guardrails up is probably worth its weight in gold for a lot of those students. Do you have any advice for our listeners that may have seventh graders going into eighth grade? Is this something that they need to start thinking about, talking about with their children in terms of what high school will bring and then beyond?



0:03:08.8 So yeah, if we just talk about middle school first, I think my biggest piece of advice is, if a student is capable, getting into algebra in 8th grade, Algebra 1 in eighth grade. Setting yourself up to be able to get through calculus in high school, I think that's a really critical piece. And some middle schools are going to be thinking about that sort of thing, and some are not. And so maybe advocating for getting slightly accelerated compared to what is happening maybe typically in middle school and get to that Algebra 1 in eighth grade. And also even in eighth grade, if there are any honors courses, taking those honors courses.



0:03:44.2 And I think for a lot of our students that are still thinking about maybe not necessarily getting the diploma, but the California... We have an alternative diploma where essentially you would be getting the credits that... The state minimum of credits. And I can't think of it off the top of my head, but...



0:04:04.1 The alternative pathway.



0:04:05.7 Alternative pathway, but how many credits they need. It's like 170 or something like that.



0:04:09.0 Yeah, I think it's 170. Yeah, instead of most districts, it's like 270.



0:04:13.4 Yeah. Or 220. And so this is important for those families that are like, well, I don't know that they're going to get algebra in eighth grade. But to think about it even freshman, sophomore year, to take advantage of extended school year programming as well. Because yeah, maybe algebra is going to take more than a year for those individuals, but it will set them up for success later on. And that's okay if it takes them a little bit longer.



0:04:42.1 I would even say those kids who we're not sure what path they're going to be on in high school, and they're in middle school, I think if they can get the experience, the exposure of Algebra 1 in eighth grade, if the school will allow it, because we get battles sometimes with some schools, but it may be something where they take Algebra 1 again in ninth grade, but that exposure that they get in eighth grade, they might be a kid who needs a little extra support, but getting that in middle school when... I'm not going to say that grades don't matter in middle school, but it's not quite the same as having it on your transcripts for high school. And so if they can get that exposure, can have a little bit of a foundation, then they might be more successful in math in high school.



0:05:24.4 Right. And the advice that I'd like to give today is to low-income students and how can they kind of set themselves up for success in the college application process and then also success in college. And so I thought about this ahead of time, I thought, I have seven pieces of advice.



0:05:46.0 Oh, I love it.

0:05:47.3 For students.



0:05:48.8 Give it to us. [chuckle]



0:05:49.7 First and foremost is, take the most challenging courses at your high school. Because one of the things I tell our students is, think about that transition from high school to college. You're going from however many college-level courses you're taking to 100% college level courses.

0:06:09.4 That's right, yeah.



0:06:10.9 That transition, the rigor, the transition and rigor can be incredibly intense. Especially for students going to large public high schools, potentially predominantly low-income high schools, that shift in rigor from high school to college is huge. So you want to get yourself in those most challenging... You want to get used to rigor. You want to get used to that, not only for yourself as far as transitioning and being able to do that transition and succeed, but also the colleges are looking, can you take that rigor? They want to see that. And so you're also showing colleges, yes, I can do this kind of rigor. So that's one of the things, is... Again, if you're capable of doing that, challenge yourself, take the most challenging courses at your school.



0:06:59.8 That's a good one. 



0:07:00.9 Number two, you got to do the hard work. There's no getting around doing the hard work in high school. If you do the hard work in high school, schools that will cover your full financial need... And this is something I really want to emphasize and I really want to tell the students out there. There are schools, there are colleges and universities that guarantee, if they accept you, they guarantee they're going to meet your full financial need. If your full financial need is everything, they will cover it. Okay? But they will only do that if they're interested in having you at their school. The only reason they're going to be interested in having you at their school is if you've taken the most challenging courses and you've done really well in those courses in High school. Then you're sitting in the driver's seat, because those schools want you and they will pay for you. So I'm here to say that for low-income students, if you work hard in high school, you can get your college paid for, or mostly paid for. It can be affordable. And I think that's a message that we don't talk about enough. We just talk about student debt and how crazy it is and...



0:08:04.8 Yes.



0:08:04.9 These schools are $90,000, how can anybody expect to pay for that? But the schools have endowments and they have financial aid. And if they are one of those schools that guarantee to meet full financial need, they might be giving you $90,000 in free money to go to that school. 



0:08:21.1 Wow. 



0:08:22.7 Okay? And this is what I say to our high school students.

0:08:23.6 Life changing. Yeah. Life...



0:08:24.9 This is what I say to our high school students, I said, "Is it worth... Think about that. If you work hard in high school, that's like getting a $90,000 job right out of high school."

0:08:34.0 Right. Right.



0:08:35.3 Let's just do the math. So that's what we're talking about. So that's the real thing you get out of working hard in high school. But low-income students need to know that, because they typically don't know that.



0:08:52.3 No, yeah, that's news to me.



0:08:55.9 So what I would say to students is, Google schools that meet full financial need, and you'll find a list of about 80 schools in the country.



0:09:04.3 Wow.



0:09:04.9 Okay? Now they just happen to be the top ranked schools in the country. So we have a very vetted list that we work with our students on. For schools, we certainly work and encourage students on the Arizona universities, but we also want to expose them to all their options. They deserve that. That is their right to see all their options. And the only schools that we talk about outside of the State of Arizona are those that meet full financial need. They just happen to be the top ranked schools in the country. So it's not that we're targeting top ranked schools. We're targeting schools that meet your needs. And some of those schools are no-loan schools. So not only are they going to meet full financial need, but there's going to be no loans in the package. And that's about 40 schools out there.



0:09:47.4 Wow.



0:09:48.5 All right? So again, there are schools that are incredibly affordable, sometimes and maybe even often, more affordable than their state public schools.

0:09:59.8 Wow.



0:10:01.3 Because they're willing to cover their full financial need. They literally will not accept you unless they can guarantee it. 



0:10:07.5 Wow.



0:10:08.1 So you will not get acceptance unless you get your full financial need.



0:10:11.5 Right. Right. That's incredible.



0:10:13.9 It's incredible, right? And that's why we have students going to top ranked schools around the country, because they're getting their college paid for. So again, do the hard work, take the most challenging courses. Those are two key things. Third thing, let's talk about extracurricular activities.



0:10:31.6 Yeah.



0:10:32.2 It's not about how many you can do. It's not about how many organizations you can be involved in,

0:10:38.2 20 things, I'm doing...

0:10:39.4 Right, right. I feel like that's been the messaging the last 20 years, is like, do everything and it's... No.



0:10:44.0 No, it's absolutely not about that. It's about getting deeply involved in a few things.



0:10:50.9 Okay. Yeah.



0:10:52.0 Okay? And that could be... Okay, say you're really into band and you're the chair of the clarinet section and you're also in a jazz ensemble and you're also in the marching band, in the orchestra, and this, and you've done regionals and state, and you are spending so much time on the music side of your life. You've really shown this passion and devotion for this, and it shows so many wonderful things. So when a school sees that, and then maybe you're also involved in something where you're volunteering in your community, those two things alone, that would be so much more powerful than a student that is like, "I go to meetings at 20 different things, and I don't get involved." Right?



0:11:38.4 Oh yeah, exactly right. Yeah. Showing me that you're in multiple things. It is under the umbrella of band, but I think that that mimics the skills that people want to see on a resume, is that you... Not even just a sense of loyalty, you can move around too. But like, what are you gaining from each position? And is it in a kind of arc that makes sense for me as a hiring manager or whatever, to hire you?



0:12:04.7 Absolutely. And you're taking on leadership positions within that. You're not just like, oh, I'm going to the meetings.



0:12:11.4 Right.



0:12:11.8 I think one thing I see, particularly students going into middle school, we have parents that will say like, I really want my kid to have more social opportunities. They don't have very many friends, what can we do? And often in high school and middle school, we have the schools that will say, we've got these clubs, come to our club fair and do this and find something that's of interest. And what I see with a lot of my clients is that there may be some schools that have a wide variety of clubs and activities, but then there are some schools that just don't have as much. And often it's hard for them to find a niche, something that they're really interested in that's gonna give them that buy in, that they're gonna stick with something, right? And I always tell families, schools are often open to creating. Usually, it's up to the student body to create the clubs. So if there's something that your child is particularly interested in...



0:13:04.6 Yeah.



0:13:05.0 Whether you have an IEP team or not, help the school help the child. Advocate for, hey, if they're really into like woodworking, let's say, and they really love using their hands and building stuff. And I've had kids that have been like that. And maybe they don't have a club or anything like that, but I guarantee you, you're going to find other kids that are interested in that. And so encouraging families to not be afraid to ask for things too, because we don't want to just, Okay, here's the list of 10 clubs. Find something that maybe is of slight interest. The kid's not going to buy into it. They're not going to stick with it. It's not going to be something that is like what you're talking about that's really going to help them as far as extracurriculars. But if we can use what they already are interested in and move forward on that, schools are often open to that.



0:13:51.2 Oh, they're hugely open to it. And if you were to start a club, that is showing so much initiative and responsibility and passion. It's huge. That is a huge feather in your cap. And then you've started something that you're interested in and you're gaining all that experience of starting an organization and bringing people in. And there's just so much wrapped around that that... Absolutely. I also want to say, you don't just have to look at what's happening at school. You're in a community, you're in a church, you're in a synagogue. What can you be involved in to give back to your community? Even if you just start and say, "Hey, I'm going to go to a food bank and spend some hours there and see what that's like," or, "I'm going to check this out," or, "I'm really interested in medicine, my local free clinic, maybe I can go there and volunteer." So, thinking outside the box. The other thing I want to say about extracurriculars, which is really key and really important for low-income students, a lot of our low-income students have major responsibilities at home.



0:14:54.9 That's right.



0:14:55.8 They're taking care of their siblings...



0:14:57.7 Yes.



0:14:58.1 Their five siblings, taking care of grandparents, translating for their parents, having to go to meetings, etcetera, etcetera. They might not have the luxury after school to be able to stay and do extracurricular activities. They might have to go home and take care of their siblings. Or they might have to work a job to help pay for their family. So I want to send the message out there, family responsibilities count.



0:15:26.5 Yes.



0:15:27.1 That is an extracurricular activity. Think about that. When an admissions director is reading your application, there is so much in that if you're taking on that responsibility. And when you're listing out your activities, don't shortchange yourself on the number of hours you're spending doing these things, because it's just part of your life. And so you think, "Everybody does this." Well, no, everybody does not do this. So if you spend... Think about it, if you spend 30 hours a week taking care of your younger siblings, that's more than a halftime job, doing. And you're showing so much responsibility, so much caring for your family. There's so many positive aspects of you doing that that is going to be so impressive to the colleges and universities.



0:16:08.6 Yeah.



0:16:09.0 So be sure to list that on your activities. And if you can't do any school activities and you are doing that, 30 hours a week, 25 hours a week or whatever, you are doing your part.



0:16:21.0 Yes, that's a great one. Yeah. 



0:16:23.5 So, that. I tell our students, I think the magic number... [chuckle] It's a magic number I've come to over years of doing this, is 13. Apply to 13 schools.



0:16:34.3 Okay.



0:16:35.3 Okay? If you just apply to one or two schools or whatever, you're really limiting your choices and they may or may not accept you, right?



0:16:42.2 Right.



0:16:42.8 So 13 schools of a range of acceptance rates, that sort of thing. Give yourself... Approach this in a smart way. Your goal is to get into schools that are going to support you in getting a degree in four years. And so don't just target the Ivy leagues. That is a losing battle. When you have 2% accept rates, it's Just... How many students are getting a rejection letter? Do the math on that. So it's not to say you can't put one or two on if that's... 



0:17:16.6 Of course, yeah.



0:17:17.6 Your heart's delight or whatever, but also look at these really great colleges. I also want to speak to this term, liberal arts college. I wish it had never been coined... 



0:17:28.1 I know. 



0:17:28.9 But it has been. You need to know, students, that every university's undergraduate schools, colleges, are liberal arts colleges. So Yale, Princeton, Harvard, Columbia, Michigan, all those schools, they're undergraduate schools. They're arts and sciences, etcetera. They are liberal arts colleges. So don't turn away from schools that are colleges that call themselves liberal arts colleges.



0:17:54.2 Yeah.



0:17:54.5 All a liberal art college is, whether it's a college or within a university, is a school that provides lots of different majors for you to be able to choose from. They typically are strong in science and they're... Most importantly, what they do is they give you skills that you can use in any profession that you end up going to. So these skills are writing skills, presentation skills, public presentation skills, and critical thinking. That's why there's a huge acceptance rate into medical schools, into business schools, into law schools of students that have gone to liberal arts colleges, because they have the skills necessary to excel in those careers.



0:18:37.3 Yeah.



0:18:37.8 So don't... You'll have people telling you, that college doesn't do anything. That's not going to prepare you for a career at all. And that's just not the case...



0:18:45.9 Yeah, that's wrong. Yeah.



0:18:47.4 That word.



0:18:48.0 No, we will help you spread that word. Yeah.



0:18:51.6 And there's lots of great colleges that we introduce our students to that probably most people haven't heard about. Williams, Bowdoin, Smith. Oh my gosh, Pomona. It goes on and on and on.



0:19:05.4 Yeah. Yeah.



0:19:05.6 So these schools are going to give you every bit as much as Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and maybe even more support.



0:19:13.3 Yeah.



0:19:14.4 So that's thing number... I think I'm at four.



0:19:17.8 We're going right along.



0:19:19.2 For people going to state schools, live on campus the first year, if at all possible. It's so hard... Often, state schools are really large universities. It's so hard... It's easy to say, "Hey, it's going to be cheaper to live at home. I'm going to commute in and take..."



0:19:34.8 Right, right, right.



0:19:36.1 If you can... At least the first year, if you can live on campus, you're going to be so much more engaged in the community...



0:19:42.6 Yeah.



0:19:43.2 You're going to get a friend group. You're going to really be involved in what's going on, and then you're kind of set for the next three years. But if you start college living at home and then just commuting into a large university to take classes of 200, 400 or whatever, it's very hard to get that friend group. It's very hard to get really engaged, and I think it leads to a more likelihood of dropping out of college.



0:20:08.2 Yeah, yeah. Because that sense of community is not there and you're going home, and if you had the luxury of a parent that went to college, it was like 20-plus years before. And so to be able to really feel a part of the collective experience of college, especially your first year, I think that that's really wonderful advice.



0:20:31.4 Yeah. And to get your friend group, right? To get your...



0:20:33.3 Yeah.



0:20:34.0 That are going to support you throughout this journey. And again, specifically for low-income students, just being able to be a full-time college student instead of the person that's taking care of all the siblings, etcetera, if you can do that for that first year...



0:20:48.5 Yeah. That's one of the...



0:20:49.1 Even if it means taking out a little bit of loan to do that, it is well worth it and will set you up to being successful, I think.



0:20:58.0 Yeah, absolutely.



0:20:59.5 That's a really good one. Yeah.



0:21:00.6 So that's thing number five.



0:21:01.8 Yeah, five. Yeah.



0:21:02.7 Okay. The thing I really want to say to high school students out there across country, and this is regardless, high income, low income, whatever...



0:21:08.5 Yeah.



0:21:10.0 Don't worry so much about your major. Honestly, you don't need to have that figured out in high school. There's so much pressure on high school students to figure out exactly what they want to do in college. And that's, again, the great thing about going to a college or a university. There's lots of majors, there's lots of opportunities, there's lots of classes you can take. You're going to be exposed to so much that you've never been exposed to before.



0:21:32.6 I mean, like half the people that I met my first year changed their majors because it just didn't... They hated it. [chuckle]



0:21:39.3 I mean, I was...



0:21:39.8 I think that's very common, right?



0:21:42.1 I can tell you from personal experience, I changed my majors four times. I went in thinking I was going to do theater. I wanted to do costume design. And I realized it was more of a hobby. And I had to find my way and realized taking a child development class that, oh, I've always loved working with kids, this makes sense, and made my way to child development. But the wonderful thing about college that I think we need to instill in our young people is that there's so much out there that you don't even know, you've probably never been exposed to, and you have the ability to take these classes and learn about things that... Yeah, maybe you had a desire when you were a kid to be a teacher or a doctor or do different things, play a sport, but then you learn something when you're older and you're like, "Wow, this is like... It hits home." Right?



0:22:30.2 Yeah, absolutely.



0:22:30.5 So it's definitely something that is a wonderful... And even just I would encourage taking classes that you maybe weren't sure, because you could surprise yourself.



0:22:41.1 Yeah. And I would say a majority of our students probably change their mind...

0:22:44.2 Oh, yeah, yeah.



0:22:45.3 In college. We've all had that experience. I changed my mind after getting a PhD. I got a PhD in oceanography, and now I'm doing college access. [chuckle] I couldn't be happier.



0:22:55.1 Right.



0:22:56.2 So you're going to change as you grow. You're going to change your mind...



0:22:58.3 Yeah, of course.



0:22:59.0 In college, lots, or you're going to be exposed to things. So just take the pressure off. High school students, don't listen to, "You gotta figure it all out in high school." You don't. You just need to get to a school that's going to be supportive for you being able to explore what you might want.



0:23:13.5 Yeah. Absolutely.



0:23:14.9 So that's thing number six.



0:23:16.4 Yes.



0:23:16.9 And then finally seven is, take on challenging experiences. Take on experiences that push you slightly out of your comfort zone, because... And this is just for life in general. Every time you do that, you're ready to take the next challenge and take the next opportunity that you might have been too scared to do if you hadn't already tried that and succeeded. And I'll give you an example of when you're in high school. Apply to a summer program where you go live on a college campus for two to three...



0:23:51.0 Yeah.



0:23:51.4 And that might be the first time you're leaving home.



0:23:53.6 Right.



0:23:54.1 It might be the first time you've ever been on a plane...



0:23:57.2 Yeah.



0:23:57.7 First time getting away from your parents, etcetera, but it's going to be a really supportive community. And go do that. Step outside your comfort zone. Because once you do that and you see how much you get out of it, which is going to be tremendous...



0:24:10.7 Oh, yeah.



0:24:11.3 And you're going to meet friends you never would have met. You're going to do things you would never have done. You're going to feel more independent. You're going to just gain these things. Then the next opportunity that comes up, instead of just saying, "Oh, no, I couldn't do that, that's too scary," you're going to say, "I think I can," because of the experience you had. You don't gain confidence in yourself until you actually do experiences that tell you at your core that you can do the next one. So you have to push yourself a little bit to get those experiences. And the more you do that, the more you are going to be open to the opportunities that are going to come your way in college. And if that doesn't happen until you're in college, a freshman, sophomore, whatever, in college, take those opportunities. Go study abroad with a professor for three weeks. 



0:25:00.1 Absolutely. 



0:25:01.0 [0:25:01.1] ____, you know?



0:25:01.6 Yeah, absolutely.



0:25:02.8 Yeah. It really will open up so many more opportunities for you in life, if you start pushing yourself now. Adults can say until we're blue in the face, you can do anything you set your mind to. Young people are not going to believe that until they start seeing that themselves.



0:25:20.8 Yeah.



0:25:21.2 And we all just use our own experiences. And so if you've just been doing the same thing and you're not trying anything new, when you do try to do anything new, you get frustrated, or you don't even want to try because it's like, well, that's... 



0:25:36.3 They're too scared to try.



0:25:37.0 That's too scary. Yeah.



0:25:39.1 And I would say to young people, push past that. Do it and you'll see.



0:25:47.7 Oh, absolutely.



0:25:48.6 You'll see what that gets you.



0:25:50.1 Yeah. And you're completely right. You can tell them until you're blue in the face, but for most people, it's that old saying, like, oh, well, they got to touch the stove to realize it's hot. I can tell you how hot it is. And for some people, they'll listen, but for others, it's like, okay, I learned.



0:26:09.8 I think it's... 



0:26:10.9 Yeah, we love all your tips. I think it's been so helpful. Right now is like that time where kids are choosing their schedules for next year, so whether they're going into eighth grade or ninth grade or 10th grade, obviously juniors and seniors are already on the path and applying. But I think these are all really helpful tips for them at any stage. And even for parents to think about, even if they have young children. We love to end our episodes with talking about success stories. And I know before we got on here, you had an update for us on some of the students you're working with. Can you tell us a little bit about the great news that you've seen with your students?



0:26:45.9 Yes. Well, we have... Our students have all now received all their decisions back from the colleges. And again, our seniors are having a spectacular year. We have multiple students admitted to Stanford, UPenn, Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, Williams, Smith, Bowdoin. Really, again, these spectacularly ranked schools. And they did that from their hard work.



0:27:16.8 Yeah. That's amazing.



0:27:18.4 Plain and simple.



0:27:19.0 Yeah. And that sense of accomplishment, and to know that your hard work can and will pay off...



0:27:27.3 Absolutely. And these are students who are the first in their families, first generation in their family to go to college.



0:27:32.5 Wow.



0:27:33.0 So they're really pioneers in their families.



0:27:36.8 And that's not easy.



0:27:38.2 It's not easy. But they did the hard work. And that's what I want to say to our high schoolers out there. It's time to do the hard work.



0:27:45.3 Yeah.



0:27:46.0 There's no getting around that. But if you do, spectacular opportunities will open up for you.



0:27:50.8 Absolutely. Tracy, you just filled our hearts with such joy. Thank you so much for coming on. The seven tips were amazing, and it really gives us a lot to think about even with our kiddos on IEPs and the federal law through Endrew F. The supreme court case from 2017 is, are these goals challengingly ambitious? And these tips kind of go into that, because we are not going to settle for just the same mundane, low-achieving goals. They need to be challenging for the student that's in front of us. And this was just a great reminder to take these tips that apply to our kiddos as well into IEP meetings at the end of this year and for next school year. So we'll have to have you on again to get your beginning-of-the-school-year perception and especially with the state of affairs, and to see where we're all at, just to check in. But listeners, if you have any questions for Tracy, please message us. Or Tracy, how can anybody reach out to you if you want to give your contact info again in your website?



0:28:51.9 Yeah. So our website, you can literally Google "STEP Expedition" or "STEP College Prep." If you Google either of those, we're going to pop right to the top. Our website is stepexpedition.org, and you can find my contact information there. My email is T Baynes, and that's T-B-A-Y-N-E-S@stepexpedition.org, so you can also reach me there. So I hope folks go to our website. We've got a lot of good information there.



0:29:18.7 Yeah. Absolutely. 



0:29:19.6 Absolutely.



0:29:20.2 We just appreciate the work that you do. Thank you so much for coming on.



0:29:23.3 And to our listener...



0:29:24.6 My pleasure.



0:29:25.4 To our listeners, we will talk to you next time.