Where is Ben?

Cheeky monkey.

uh, he should be on his way.

Now of course I'm joined by Krystle.

Krystle McGilvery.

Thank you very much.

She, she was with us, uh, in the past discussing other money type things.

Uh, and given that last week we were talking about proposal

writing and how proposals.

Uh, unlike, well how I used to perceive them as a way to actually get someone to

convince someone to work with you, there were actually a way, the way I like to

look at them now, they're just a way to, confirm all the conversations that we

already had with the client so that they know exactly what they're getting into.

They probably said yes already.

They're already in there.

They just wanna have it all down on a dotted line, um, or in black and white.

And one of the things in terms of those conversations that we need

to do is to talk about money.

Because you know, if we're gonna price well, we need to know exactly, um, how

much money people are prepared to pay and, and what they think is of value.

But without talking about money as such, how can we get to the figure that is going

to work for them and us in a proposal?

Uh, and given that we need to talk about money, and given that a lot

of us find it quite challenging to talk about money, we thought we'd

talk about talking about money.

Now if that isn't matter, what is?

Uh, and, and to help, we invited krystle to join us in talking about talking

about money because she was talking about money at Summer Camp, um, last month.

And also we love talking to her before, so we thought we'd get

on, um, to just break it up.

Uh, and share her own wisdom.

Um, and I, I felt that was an energy for you to talk about talking about money.

Um, for, for people who are, who are not aware of your work and are not

familiar with you, uh, do you wanna give us a, a brief introduction, Krystle?

Yes, sure thing.

Uh, so my thing is money and psychology In a nutshell.

I do two things.

I help improve financial decision making.

So, um, started working with corporates and financial wellbeing.

I'm also a chartered accountant, hence for the business side.

And I mainly work with founders and helping them get confident about

money, um, and get organized as well.

Financial wellbeing.

I feel there's some people in government who may need to talk to you.

Possibly.

Possibly.

But we don't, we, we won't go down politics or religion?

No.

Not quite yet.

No.

Um, Well, my curiosity is really about, um, just exploring the challenges around

talking about money and seeing if we can get to a place that will help people feel

uh, I was gonna say more comfortable.

Comfortable is the wrong word.

More

competent?

Competent?

Even competent in 30 minutes.

If you can promise that, that's great.

You know, struggling to talk about money is with you.

To me, it starts with self work and your belief about what you deserve, and then

also understanding the client and their needs and why they're even talking to you.

And there's maybe a disconnect there as to why, ah, can I say this much?

Um, and where that gets a bit broken, I think that's where I'd kind of start.

You know, one of the things we sort of talk about often, you know, whilst

obviously people are, are in the context of their work, can't sort of separate

who they are, uh, and the stories they may have or the ideas they may have.

Uh, sure that is the thing which 'cause of comes to bear when we are

thinking about all of these things or having any of these conversations

or thinking about having these conversations, all the stuff of our lives.

So one on one hand the word shame is coming up.

Shame in terms of there's, there's a personal perspective around

money that might be coming up.

And so feeling ashamed to ask for too much or feeling shamed even to

talk about money because money's something, there's a judgment.

Uh, and then there's something around how much money should I be making?

So this idea of comparison of like, I need to be earning a certain

amount of money in order to be of a certain value or status in life.

And so how much I'm bringing that to a conversation of, okay, if I

charge this much, I'm only this type of value and I need to be charging,

or anyone who charges more is more important or more valuable than I am.

And so there's, uh, that starts to come into the mix.

So I'm in the conversation with a client.

How do we even start other than saying, how much do you wanna pay?

What other ways can we talk about money or, yeah, how, how, how

generally, how can we just approach the conversation around money maybe.

Yeah.

I think what comes to mind for me first is, I think you guys

touched on this last time.

To be able to separate the personal, you know, how I feel about it and how much

do I deserve from the client's needs, and why are they seeking this work from you?

So, understanding what it is for them, the value it bringss to their

organization, whoever it's for, and understanding that really fundamentally

'cause that would link perfectly with how much you could charge.

So I think especially if you're new to Quantum of the corporate, it's

whoa, how long is a piece of string?

I, I, I don't know what to say in terms of a number.

Is it a thousand?

Is it 10,000?

20,000?

But if you can try to unpick, well, what is this doing for them?

And then do some research.

So I think to start maybe around understanding the value of bringing

clients so that when you're talking around the subject, you've

got more context for the price.

What, what is it that people need to do in order for that to happen?

If the start point is a place where I'm kind of confident enough to

start to kind of park some of those stories that I might have, where

is it that we might best start?

To give ourselves that best chance, if that makes sense?

That to me is almost a direct business question.

Mm-Hmm.

Because if you're thinking about like, the reason for a business is

to serve a need and solve a problem.

So if you think about what you are offering, and I think this is harder,

I've got several clients who are, it's just them in the business, right?

So they're the business, so it's, it can be really difficult to separate

what you're delivering for the client to serve a need from you and

how much you are charging for you.

That could be quite uncomfortable.

But I think looking at it as a, as a business case and not a emotional,

personal, my life story case, it's okay, or maybe even imagine it's somebody else,

you know, solving a business problem.

And looking at the, the dynamics there.

Okay, what do they need?

Research the company, maybe the, the, the financials of the company or research

similar businesses or, you know, to understand what that space looks like.

So it's almost doing some groundwork, which is more based in fact, to

get that information to create.

Okay, this is where we are.

Okay.

The numbers might look scary, but okay, this is what it's

Mm-Hmm.

What I'm, I'm sensing here is approaching these conversations

with a level of un attachment.

Not necessarily detachment as in times you don't care, but you're not weighed

down by the comments or the responses or the reactions that you get because

on one hand I agree, there's a, there's a, separating us from the numbers.

So whether that's tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or just

tens, those are just numbers that, uh, are being used and it doesn't

necessarily, uh, or it shouldn't, I'm gonna use that word, advisedly, uh,

impact how you have the conversation.

So if it's a hundred thousand going, oh my God, am I really worth that?

Or if it's only a 10 quiz, like, oh my God, that's what you think I'm worth?

Mm-Hmm.

Because that's just, uh, uh, an arbitrary number as such.

And, and this is a curious thing.

I was, that came up.

Sometimes people want, and we've talked about this in the pricing court,

people just want to work with us.

It's like, you know, you're talking about, oh, it's just me in the

business, but it's actually, I, I, I need to work with Krystle.

Mm-Hmm.

It doesn't care.

You know, that's what I'm paying for is to work with you and then how that.

Starts to make this kind of conversation around money and making

it unattached or detached a bad term a bit more interesting or difficult.

So what I'm getting at is like, we might not have any answers in the next

15 minutes, but I hope we could open up or make people aware of what might be

going on as we're trying to find, have these conversations about the numbers.

I see a Frances is a comment in the chat.

is she touching on the point of the service is almost

bespoken very unique to you?

So she says, um, if your business is only possible because of people's custom,

is it appropriate to speak to that?

So, um, it might be useful to elaborate on that if you can.

Francis, um, you were talking just now about bespoke, is that right, Krystle?

And what was going through your mind there?

Was there something that's very specific to the customer or something that's,

that that can't be, it isn't off a shopping list, it's much more tailored.

Yeah, I think that's what I thought she meant.

She said no.

Okay.

It's gonna be more.

Yeah.

So I think back to my earlier comment about, you know, shopping

around having a look and see what you know other people are doing.

If you're completely, you know, have no idea where to go with

the pricing as a starting, but if the service you're offering is

so unique that you're struggling.

I, and I, I dunno if you guys touched on this last time, but even looking at what

is it you are doing this business for?

What are you trying to achieve?

What, what is this funding?

What kind of life are you, what are you trying to create?

You know, are you trying to create a six big business?

Are you something bigger, something smaller?

And working out that way might guide how much you charge for one

client given the amount of time it's gonna take, as another approach.

What sp Spring to mind actually was to rephrase a question or rephrase

the title of this, uh, session.

So we talked about how to have, well, well, I, the way I titled it, how

to have mature money conversations.

So maybe what we can start is, what is an immature money conversation?

Um, an immature money conversation in a way, to me feels like, uh, a conversation

where I'm not really connected to kind of what's going on for me.

So one that doesn't feel kind of very kind of grounded, doesn't feel

sort of rooted in a kind of belief and understanding, some clarity, one

that I'm kind of bouncing around, and just I could maybe one where I'm

being very emotionally triggered.

That's maybe what's coming up a little bit in terms of what would be a kind of

immature way to have a money conversation.

One, which is sort of rooted an expression of just.

Kind of, you know, an unfolding sequence of emotional triggers where I'm kind

of bouncing around and maybe avoiding the things which are sort of important

for me to say or important to be said.

I like that.

And that, that makes me think of act, and I'm sure you have the

same actual cases where people are terrified about quoting for a client.

So everything they're doing is outta fear.

Mm-Hmm.

So not well thought, or just quickly responding, saying

a number that you think.

Definitely accept this, which, you know, as we know doesn't

end up very well, but, yeah.

Situ where we avoid essentially an immature conversation around money is

probably where we don't really talk about money because of all of those things.

So we, we are dancing around it, rather than kind of wadding into it.

Gliding into it.

Well, the energy I'm thinking about or is coming to me is like, uh,

kind of like a, uh, an angry child.

I want chocolate.

I want chocolate now gimme chocolate.

I said, no, no.

You're not allowed to have chocolate.

No, I want chocolate, or I don't want broccoli.

I, I don't want broccoli.

Don't give, you know.

So I'm not even in a space to have a dialogue.

I'm immediately either demanding or refusing.

That's nice.

As opposed to say, saying, all right, what, what does mommy or

daddy actually want me to do?

And why?

Or what is right to do and why?

What, yeah, exactly.

What is right to do and why?

And so there's a, I've got a very myopic and very blinkered view

as to what, it's what I need.

So no matter, I need chocolate now.

I need you to pay this amount of money now, or I need you to agree to this.

And if you don't, I'm gonna have a tantrum, as opposed to what I'm

hearing there is something else.

It's interesting, and this is why I think when we started talking, I was

like, where are we focused on this?

Because going back to what you're saying, that is rooted in somebody

who is uncomfortable with money.

So before we even start quoting, if you are afraid and you know, maybe you've

got scarcity mindset and you know, oh my God, I've got a client, ah, I.

If you don't feel, see money as, as flowing as energy that it is gonna

come to you if you allow it, then you are in this restrictive, um, space

to then communicate to corporates or anybody, potentially, in that way.

In its way, like we said, it all kind of link back to, at the, the end of

the day or the beginning of the day, depending on how it's being framed, is

that actually there is a person there.

And it's that person who's in a business, that person is not in the business.

Does that person, is that person scared?

Is that person fearful?

Does that person kind of believe this idea that money is energy and that

it flows in, it flows out, and can I be comfortable with all of that?

And in a way, it kind of feels like all of, that's the thing

actually, which is behind.

All of this, you know, whether I can be empathetic or not,

or whatever it might be.

It all comes down to that.

And the, the feeling that I have around it, you know, in

my heart underlying it all.

And in, in a sense, it's, the question is whether, you know, how we sort

of separate any of these things out.

And I think, um, you said this at the beginning, potentially, that people

are buying you a lot of the time, so.

If you are bringing that energy to the conversation, it's not gonna go well.

But if you are more at peace, more comfortable, more confident,

there's more room for you to connect, and that stronger, richer

connection leads to the sale, surely.

Because you know the person who's gonna sign it off and say yes and go, oh,

it's 20 grand more than we thought.

But yeah.

And you can, you'd be able to shine more in those conversations and

get across the value and all of that in a really comfortable space.

So then the talk of the money is almost a silo note.

It's, it's not the majority of, you know, the pre-work.

So there's a I think the touching on this, what I feel, where I feel we're

at is like having this dialogue, being open to dialogue, being open to, to

hearing what the other person is saying.

I'm connecting it to the, the kind of the child analogy.

I think when young, young, very young children are basically the world.

There's nothing exists apart from them.

Their feelings, their sensations not, you know, and so they're

very caught in their own world.

If anything goes against what they want, then, then they react in a certain, and

then when we mature, when we realize there are other people with other

perspectives and other ideas, we're able to then work a bit better with others.

Um, and so there's, it feels like this idea of a mature

conversation is understanding, there are different perspectives,

uh, and energies around money.

So, which, what Ben was saying is like if you meet someone who doesn't feel

like money flows through their lives, being aware of that so that you can

reach them in the right way so they're not intimidated or they're not, uh, feel

alienated by the way you talk about money, while at the same time you need to be

able to have these conversations that could be quite triggering for people.

And to do that in a way that gets you to a point of clarity.

So in the end, it's like, how do we get to a point of clarity about the

boundaries, the upper boundaries, and the low boundaries of what

people are, feel comfortable to pay?

Because it's, that's also as much about how we get to the upper and lower levels

of what we're comfortable talking about.

Yes.

And so, yeah, it might be that what we're saying sort of triggers or doesn't

trigger something in somebody else, but oftentimes it's also what we're,

you know, what, what are the levels are we comfortable talking about?

And to what extent do we kind of believe in the value of what we are sort of

talking about, which creates a space or doesn't create a space, you know,

for somebody to feel comfortable to step in with, with you, so to speak.

And what came to mind there is like if your Apple boundary as, as the person

who's selling your service is here, but your customer's upper boundary is there.

Mm-Hmm.

Then you are missing out on all of this potential value that you can share in.

And there's also dissonance there and the sort of potential confusion and things

that the other then may see as a kind of insecurity, as a doubt in all the other

stuff we talk about, whether you are making it easy to buy or not, actually if

there is that disparity there, whatever it is, whether it's five pounds, 50,

50,000, 5 million, whatever the actual number is, you know this thing around

the, the kind of your, your prospect of people you're speaking to, wanting signals

of reassurance, wanting to be, kind of, feel confident, wanting to be reminded

that it is going to do the thing that they want it to do for them, there is

a chance that actually if you are, you know, it's not just a case of leaving

some money on the table, you may actually inadvertently be sending a signal of

sort of slight doubt to them, which of course is going to work against you too.

And, and just also on that as well, and I, I thought I was gonna say just now,

but you're also signaling low value.

Mm.

Potentially, you know, people have an idea of how much something would

cost and that they paid for it, and that's the level that they associate

with the value of that thing.

So if you are coming in way under, they may think, We don't expect

a good service from you then.

And that also might, even if they say yes, that might even set the tone for

the way they view you and your work.

So even if it is shining and polished, they've got a framing

that actually 'cause it's so cheap, it's not shining and polished.

So what's what's springing to mind for me is like before we said, all right, if your

boundary, your upper limit is here and their upper limit is there, first you need

to try and work out what that limit is, so there's a conversation you need to have.

And then your own beliefs around money and your own value.

If it anchors you lower than that, then you're in in, in a bit of trouble.

So for me, there's like an, I'm gonna use the word enlightened,

approach to this, where you have no boundaries essentially, and the only

boundaries are set by how much the customer's willing to pay or not pay.

Because I feel like if you can come to that conversation really open to just

what is a value to them and what is too much for them, then it's up to you to

choose, not based on your, your biases or, or your fears, but more on what

do I want to be paid for right now?

Or how much do I wanna be paid right now?

What this is making me think of is, it sounds great and I like that, but

where I'm struggling is if you are, going back to the business case, right?

Ideally with your business, you have a client type in mind and you know how

much they're willing to pay, and they're in line with your business model, and

you know how much you want to earn.

So it's the client who is willing to pay 50 K, or it's a client who's willing to

pay 2000 pounds, whatever your service is.

So surely you'll be talking to clients that are in that price bracket anyway.

So what you explained sound amazing, having the no boundaries.

But I think where my brain, and I haven't, I don't have an answer, you,

you would ideally have an idea of where your client should you want them to sit.

I love that.

And that's what I think for me, think this is for me, the broader context

of this is like I get to choose which customers I wanna work with.

Now, if I'm gonna sell premium t-shirts, I'm gonna change charge a

hundred quid for the T-shirts, and I'm gonna sell them to people who wanna

pay a hundred quid for a T-shirt.

And those are the people who would never buy a quid a t-shirt for 10 quid.

But it's, it's my choice to work.

They're not, oh my God, I, I'm not allowed to sell t-shirts for a hundred quid.

'cause it's unethical.

It's the, actually there are people out there who want to pay that much money.

What I do with that money afterwards, my decision.

If I wanna hoard it and keep it, then that's a judgment on me.

If I wanna make a judgment or I want to give it away, whatever I wanna do with it.

But I'm not the barrier, I'm not the limit.

Let's say, put it that way, of how much money I can earn.

It's, it's like you said, it's the customer who's becomes the limit.

If there's no one who's gonna pay X amount of money for what I

do, then I have to accept that.

I'm talking to the wrong people, or what I do is totally unwanted.

As opposed to, oh my God, why aren't you paying this much money for this?

And what does it say about me?

I was just gonna kind of give a real example that I've seen some

of my clients off the back of that, because what I articulated is a nice,

clean, tidy polish business plan.

Hey, I'm gonna go about and start doing this.

But sometimes when we start working, we start picking up bigger clients

who want bigger things, which you can deliver, but maybe you haven't.

And it's like, well, how do I do that?

And it's such a big company, so, ah, I don't want to undersell myself.

You know?

Then how do you do that?

Because then, then it is a, I didn't even know that that marker was available,

you know, for me, which is, you know, you go back to the, the drawing board

and what, what is the opportunity here?

What are they looking for?

The stuff we spoke about right at the beginning, I think.

Well, it reminds me, Ben, like on the course we talk about, you know,

how, how could you charge 10 times more than you are at the moment?

And we get people to reflect on, well, do you remember the

time when you were charging 10 times less than what you are now?

Yeah, because everybody's, well, oftentimes most people have

gone through a shift like that.

Uh.

There would've been a point where, you know, a version

of that is, is kind of true.

And the thing that obviously people always sort of start with when you first

ask the question is that they would somehow just be selling more stuff,

10 times more stuff than I am today.

But of course that's not actually the thing that happens.

And that all you know for sure.

Wasn't the thing that happened.

You know, if you think about the, oftentimes the first person that you

worked with when you were doing a version of the work that you are doing now, you

know, you did, you know you charged X, but actually you find that, you know,

with that, the kind of journey having kind of gone on, you, you know, you

are charging 10 times more already from what you were not by doing more, but

because there's a whole lot of other things at play, which, you know, in very

considerable part is about a how kind of confident you are, but also because you

are then probably connecting with people who have, who for whom the price of the

problem, uh, is, is that much greater.

Uh, and so it's the same thing, but the cost to fix it, um, is

greater for the person that you are, you are then speaking to.

So what I feel we're we're getting to is there's this, uh, a more kind of, I

won't say tactical approach of know who's your customer, how do you define value?

What does that mean in terms of the amount of money you can earn, but

how uor limitations in our ability to talk about money of different

amounts can maybe stop us from accessing different types of clients.

Mm-Hmm.

And so this mature aspect, the mature money conversation, I don't think

it's a switch necessary then that we can switch, oh, we're gonna have

mature money conversations from now on is like the more we talk, we just

have to keep on talking about money.

Mm-Hmm.

Somehow.

And over that time we will become more mature.

Mm-Hmm.

In our approach.

And just to add in there, when you say talk about money more, be brave

to have uncomfortable conversations.

Not necessarily with the client directly, but Yes, that's the thing.

But just having those money conversations, that's allowing your mind to be a

different type of money, you know, really lazy with my words, but bigger numbers.

Yeah.

You know, for you.

Allowing those conversations to exist so you can become comfortable with them,

so then you can start charging them and it's like, yeah, I charge that.

And I, I also wanna offer for people who say, oh, how do I do that?

I think it needs to be playful at some point as to some level.

And because of that, it can't be when you are in a, in an existential

part-time in your business.

Mm-Hmm.

If you are so desperate for money.

It's gonna be hard to be bold and to be playful.

And so in a sense for, for anyone who's like at that stage, you're like, okay, I'm

earning okay about what I need to survive, but I wish I could earn a bit more, I

think then is an opportunity to have more conversations with people that you might

not end up working with, but you can play with the conversations around money with.

And it's trying to throw out there some opportun, you know, some possibilities

for people to start playing, working with this, with these money conversations

so that they can start learning for themselves how it feels and what it is,

but without the fear necessarily of, oh my God, what does this mean if I can

put paying the mortgage on the rent?

I think that also would expose you to those spaces and see that it's.

It's possible, and it's not that far away, and oh, that could be for me so easily.

You know, it's, it's seeing that if you are in a, where you are now is what

you're used to, what you're familiar with, what you are bounded by, you

know, that's, that's your reality.

But exposing yourself to the next level, we'll start the process of

making that comfortable call you.

And, um, I think the other element of this, there's doing it so being

in a place where you can do it.

So you're not dependent on this conversation to, to to pay the mortgage,

approaching it with a playful, uh, nature.

So because you are trying to, um, experience what it might be.

But also I think here there's noticing how you feel.

Mm-Hmm.

When you have.

Certain responses and trying to use that as a guiding mechanism

for just understanding your own limits and boundaries and,

and biases and li and yeah.

Sort of blockages around this conversation, 'cause we, that's what

we want people to have, or we would love for people to remove, being

able to remove those blockages.

And I see there's a couple of questions from N, whoever N may be.

Apologies for, just not know, for not knowing your name.

So I'll start with the, the first question they posted.

How do you handle massive differences in pricing and competitor attitudes?

For example, having to explain your price, which is higher than the

competitor, or for example, when you have a coach that is overconfident

with their solutions and results and promises the earth, or do you just

ignore and stick to your own philosophy?

So there's something around them comparing you against other people with

totally different prices, and unless as, and also totally different promises.

Not only that.

I mean this sort of links a little bit, well, a lot, a lot of it, to

the what, the, what you are selling.

Because if what we're selling is thought of as a commodity, uh,

then of course we, we are inviting the client or the prospect.

Well, two things.

If what we're doing is thought of and understood as a commodity, then it is.

It is very easy to compare.

Uh, because, you know, commodities by their sort of nature are easy to compare.

So the, the what we're selling is important.

And part of that, one of the things which sort of lens

differentiation might be how we work.

So it might be that people say no, but there's a million, you know, if coaching

is the example, oh, there's a, you know, there's a thousand coaches out there.

And so, you know, you coach are the same as you coach.

Then the owners, the responsibility is on the coach to explain how, how they work

is different, so that you are, you are kind of baking in some differentiation

into the how you do what you do.

Because if you are understood to be the same as everybody else, then there

is, you know, the truth is there is very little value to what you're doing.

So the onus is on you, the supplier, you the creator, you the maker to understand

how what you are doing is different.

And that might be in how you do it, it might be in the promises that you make,

it might be in the change that you.

Uh, offering to the people who you want to, you want to work with.

But yeah, the, the onus is on is on you to think about where you know, how it

is different and where it is different because value is in those differences.

If something is understood to be the same as everything else, you know, we don't

know from our own buying spirit, then the value of that to us is much less.

If something is, it feels like a different.

Thing, then the value of it is greater.

Then there is the responsibility to see how we can make the, make the connections.

There is a a sort of second thing, which is a sort of smaller point

in comparison to that, which is this thing around choice.

The other thing that happens is when somebody asks us for a proposal

or quote or whatever it might be, oftentimes we do just give them a number

and we tell them what it will cost.

When we're doing that, we're actually leaving the client or

the prospect no alternative but to go compare us to somebody else.

So one of the things we'll see, we talk about on the course, and it's truly

generally with all this, is the importance of having choice in the conversation.

Because if you have choice in the conversation, you can work with me like

this or like this or like this, whatever it might be, you are offering choice.

You are, you are kind of working to control the comparisons a little bit.

Because your client, your prospect does want to want some choice.

So if you are not giving them choice, then you are actually forcing them

to go compare you to somebody else.

And so that is a, a kind of, sort of smaller part of that other response.

Just picking up on the second point, I like.

My, my original thought was they don't understand what's unique about you.

They don't understand what you are bringing that you

know that's special about you.

And your second point about giving them choice allows you to tailor what you

are offering to be perfect for them.

So then it's almost impossible for them to see any other option

outside of working with you.

So then they can't compare at all.

Thanks Krystle.

Um, Ben has to jump off.

He's, uh, we've, we've limited, we've come to the limit for our

timeshare of Ben, so, um, we'll close off in a sec, but catch you later.

Ben.

Thank you very much for

Thank you.

Thank you, Krystle, thank you Carlos, thank you everybody, goodbye.

Um, I think the other aspect around this, and Ben captured the whole comparison

and what they're comparing you to.

Um, you talked about the, Nina was asking, and is Nina who's asking this question?

She was asking about, do you just stick to your own philosophy?

Trust and safety are, um, two things that spring to mind.

because even if someone's doing something, like she talked about a coach who's

overconfident with their solutions and results and promises the earth.

Do they trust them?

And how do you have a conversation?

And Nina, I'll point you to a um, episode 10 of this series where

we had John Osborne talking about having powerful conversations.

How do you guide these people through a conversation that helps them

understand that you are trustworthy, um, and that you are a safe bet?

Because if that's a value to the person, even if you're more

expensive, then they'll choose you.

And even if you don't offer as much as someone else, they still may choose

you because there's something about the clarity that, or the, uh, yeah,

the safety, let's put it that way.

Knowing that, you know, un really understand where they're at, where

they're gonna get to, and you are offering something that is exactly what

they need as opposed to everything, because it sounds like a cheap deal.

Um, and then that whole thing around what Ben said about a commodity, I think.

Yeah, when, when you are, when you are, when we're all selling the same thing.

It's going to, there are gonna people be out there who will be

out there just based, who's still gonna make decisions based on price.

Uh, and that's unfortunately something we can't always control.

I was listening to your point about trust and safety and trying to

see if there's anything in that.

And I, just going back to, I guess, creating the space and having

that relationship with the buyer.

In that process of you understanding what their needs are and tailoring

your solution to, to perfectly fit in all the, the corners along that

journey, you'll be building trust.

Yeah.

You know, and, and giving them the space to allow their needs to really shine

bright and you are really accommodating and understanding that's gonna

build trust and you to them on time.

That good stuff, all the nuances to set you apart and make you stand

out as someone, actually, I would like you want to work with you.

So what kind of, what was in my mind?

And I say that first because kind of not worrying about the other person's

saying all this amazing stuff.

It's like, okay, if they're gonna go with that person, maybe

actually they can deliver all this.

Maybe it's completely legit and they have built the trust and

No, that's great and so be it.

But I think the focus is on you doing your part to really connect, really

build that strong relationship, you know?

I really encourage you, Nina, to check out episode 10 with John Osborne.

I think it's around, it's around these conversations that we can

have that, that help each of you, your client and yourself discover

this, that you are the right match.

Uh, Tom also mentions competence as well as trust and safety.

And, uh, I would, I, to a certain level, I would group

competence within the trust bit.

I trust that you're going to deliver on the thing that you say you're gonna do.

You have the skills, but yes, you're right Tom.

You know, we need to also have the knowledge and experience and, and

the processes in order to create the, the outcome, not just look

like a nice person you can trust.

Um, finally, uh, there's another question from Nina.

She's heard a theory that if you sell clients a solution that they want,

they will find the money to pay for it.

What are your thoughts on that?

that makes complete sense.

I mean, alongside what we're talking about, about, you know, the relationship

that people, if you've hit the Nhat on the head that this is what they're looking

for, as long as they can find the funds, it's within the budget, you know, they

can access it within the company, yeah.

For me the, I think there's something here that's connected to this idea of

mature money conversations is not to let your perceptions and biases judge

whether someone can afford you or not, uh, and not to even assume just because

they say one thing, that's the truth.

And so there's a level of, there's an, well, again, back to the conversations.

If you're able to understand where they're at, where they want to get to, how you

can help them, that you're the best match you, you are confident about the numbers

that you, you share, uh, in terms of how much you price yourself, even if they

wince, even if they say, oh, but you know, that isn't in my budget at the moment, to

suddenly jump and say, oh, well I can give you a discount, that might not help you

because you are again making an assumption already about what they're capable of.

And so there's a this here around the maturity of like, I think giving

space for the person to really get used to or really understand

is this really valuable to them?

And one of the things I remember Ben saying on the course is like, if

they say that you're too expensive, even though it's exactly what you

think they need, they still haven't understood the value in their eyes.

Hmm.

They still haven't seen the possibility or they still, and so it isn't about

you suddenly discounting or saying, oh no, they can't work with me,

is it's an invitation for further conversations to what is it They

don't see that You see very clearly?

I think the first point was about the assumptions that people tend to

make about what others can afford.

And it's so easily done, especially going back to the conversation that I jumped on

last week or week before, about how people present, you know, and, and corporates,

I guess how they present and the kind of, maybe they chuck some numbers about

other work they've done or, or they've never done anything like this before,

so they don't expect to be, you know, whatever it may be, they will potentially

act as signals or, uh, opposing signals to what you think they can afford.

But yes, going back to as long as you are serving their need and you

have presented yourself in a way that shows you are of that value,

I think that's important as well.

So not just the conversation itself, but anything they come in contact with that

is where they'd go to look to check in.

And what, what else do you do?

Who have you worked with as long as you are, it's all in line with

where you are pricing yourself, then them being surprised about

the price should be less likely.

And that's not negating those who have no idea.

And I'm completely like, no, I can't afford anything more than 50 quid.

Yeah.

Sure they exist.

And, and then you have the option to say no.

Yeah, I was gonna say this earlier, I was like, you don't

have to work with everyone.

Some of them are not gonna work out.

There're gonna be some nos from you and them, you know?

And that's where I think is a really powerful place to

be where you are more often.

In control of the nose as opposed to everyone else or all of your customers.

Awesome.

Thank you very much, Krystle, um, for your time and your input and the energy.

Um, any last thoughts before we close off?

Uh, I, I think we mentioned earlier on about, we didn't call it self-awareness.

Uh, I can't remember what we called, but it's basically self-awareness.

Oh, that was it.

Understanding, identifying, being aware of how you feel when it to money.

I think that's something that people don't really do and that might be quite

a new concept, but just even your day to day, just, you know, talk about

certain numbers, high numbers or just different numbers, and check in with

how you feel in those environments.

And that will be a signal that you know's something that you can work on.

I was gonna echo you exactly.

In the same way, in the same vein is the how do we have mature

conversations around money or anything?

It's knowing ourselves.

Mm-Hmm.

I think part of maturity is this self-knowledge of what are the triggers,

what are the fears, what are the biases?

And not necessarily getting rid of them, but just being aware

that they're there and they're present and so that they don't.

So I train in martial arts.

And one of the tenets, one of the rules of our system is assume nothing.

Because I think the more that you can step into a space without those assumptions,

the more you'll be open to all sorts of possibilities rather than already seeing

something as a foregone conclusion.

And so that's where I feel, when you can have a mature conversation about money,

not having assumptions of where it's gonna go and, and approaching with curiosity

as opposed to fear and, inevitability.

Thank you very much, Krystle.

Really enjoyed this.

Thanks.

Thanks for having me.

. And thank you very much for everyone who's listening live and, and thank you Nina,

for your, your really probing questions.

It was, uh, definitely sparked some interesting thoughts.

Until next time, take care, bye-bye.

Bye.