1 00:00:36,168 --> 00:00:39,258 W. Curtis Preston: Hi, and welcome to Backup Central's Restored All podcast. 2 00:00:39,258 --> 00:00:41,958 I'm your host, w Curtis Preston, aka Mr. 3 00:00:41,958 --> 00:00:42,438 Backup. 4 00:00:42,738 --> 00:00:49,488 And I have with me my, uh, DIY flooring encourager Prasanna Malaiyandi. 5 00:00:49,488 --> 00:00:50,338 How's it going, Prasanna? 6 00:00:50,808 --> 00:00:51,978 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I'm good, Curtis. 7 00:00:51,978 --> 00:00:52,788 I'm good. 8 00:00:52,818 --> 00:00:54,678 Um, how goes the floors. 9 00:00:55,358 --> 00:00:57,018 W. Curtis Preston: It, it, it goes well as you see. 10 00:00:57,018 --> 00:00:59,778 And you know, I've been sending you the photos that, you know, there was a, there 11 00:00:59,778 --> 00:01:06,948 was a pause there for a while while my knee injured injury, uh, I don't know, 12 00:01:07,443 --> 00:01:09,483 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Well, I, Well, I think it was a knee entry, 13 00:01:09,483 --> 00:01:12,423 but I think it was also like you were, you went to Hawaii, right? 14 00:01:12,423 --> 00:01:13,173 You had other 15 00:01:13,198 --> 00:01:13,668 W. Curtis Preston: was not too, 16 00:01:13,983 --> 00:01:14,343 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 17 00:01:14,373 --> 00:01:15,003 So it wasn't, 18 00:01:15,078 --> 00:01:16,848 W. Curtis Preston: hard to do flooring while you're on vacation. 19 00:01:16,938 --> 00:01:17,298 Yeah. 20 00:01:17,733 --> 00:01:18,633 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Bluetooth flooring, 21 00:01:19,188 --> 00:01:22,938 W. Curtis Preston: It has resumed in earnest and I actually, what's, 22 00:01:22,998 --> 00:01:25,998 once I'm done with the current room, which is the super hard room 23 00:01:25,998 --> 00:01:27,258 where I have to work backwards. 24 00:01:27,798 --> 00:01:32,208 I dunno if any of you ever done, you know, paneling or the luxury vinyl 25 00:01:32,213 --> 00:01:34,308 planking or the laminate flooring. 26 00:01:34,518 --> 00:01:36,588 There's a working for, there's a working backwards. 27 00:01:36,588 --> 00:01:39,918 I am now currently working backwards as I have to in one of the rooms. 28 00:01:40,038 --> 00:01:42,168 It's the hardest, it's the worst I'm doing. 29 00:01:42,833 --> 00:01:45,983 Once I'm done with that, I will be half done with the project. 30 00:01:46,343 --> 00:01:49,553 So I'm super, super excited to get to that. 31 00:01:50,093 --> 00:01:53,873 Uh, and you're the only one who I can send photos and you're like, Good job. 32 00:01:53,873 --> 00:01:54,173 And 33 00:01:54,533 --> 00:01:57,393 you're the only one that like encourages me in my little DIY 34 00:01:58,338 --> 00:01:59,448 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Well, I gotta try, you know. 35 00:01:59,448 --> 00:02:00,438 Well, here's the thing. 36 00:02:00,443 --> 00:02:05,388 I live vicariously through your projects, so it feels like I'm working on it. 37 00:02:05,388 --> 00:02:06,588 When you're working on. 38 00:02:07,173 --> 00:02:10,443 W. Curtis Preston: I wonder how many of our podcast listeners also live 39 00:02:10,443 --> 00:02:14,553 vicariously through my projects or are going, Gosh, shut up about the 40 00:02:14,553 --> 00:02:16,323 flooring and get to the tech already. 41 00:02:16,593 --> 00:02:17,553 I just wonder, 42 00:02:17,703 --> 00:02:20,403 Prasanna Malaiyandi: so if you, if you, Yeah, if you have a viewpoint 43 00:02:20,403 --> 00:02:22,623 on this, please let Curtis know. 44 00:02:22,623 --> 00:02:23,403 On Twitter, 45 00:02:23,988 --> 00:02:28,938 W. Curtis Preston: Yes, at WC Preston on Twitter, uh, you know, we love to hear 46 00:02:28,938 --> 00:02:33,528 opinions, you know, and just remember opinions are like, you know, noses. 47 00:02:33,528 --> 00:02:36,228 Everybody has one and I usually pick my own. 48 00:02:36,348 --> 00:02:41,448 Um, alright, so we're gonna bring on our guest today. 49 00:02:41,478 --> 00:02:47,058 He is the CTO of Opti9 Tech, having been there since the late 90. 50 00:02:47,538 --> 00:02:52,388 It could be found on Twitter, @SagiBrody, and LinkedIn as the same name. 51 00:02:52,388 --> 00:02:54,008 It's having a unique name. 52 00:02:54,008 --> 00:02:54,698 You get to go, right? 53 00:02:55,088 --> 00:02:56,978 If you search on my name on LinkedIn, you get like 54 00:02:57,188 --> 00:02:58,938 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I think, I think I'm the only Malaiyandi, by the 55 00:02:59,058 --> 00:02:59,418 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 56 00:02:59,418 --> 00:03:01,308 You, you're definitely yeah, as well. 57 00:03:01,308 --> 00:03:04,458 So welcome to the podcast, Sagi Brody. 58 00:03:05,598 --> 00:03:06,018 Sagi Brody: Thank you. 59 00:03:06,018 --> 00:03:07,068 It's, it's great to be here. 60 00:03:07,068 --> 00:03:09,528 I could already tell this is gonna be a fun conversation. 61 00:03:09,618 --> 00:03:11,358 W. Curtis Preston: Well, it, it'll be something, it'll 62 00:03:11,358 --> 00:03:14,268 be, it'll be lively for sure. 63 00:03:14,688 --> 00:03:19,098 Uh, the two of us talk way too much and we, we invite you to the conversation. 64 00:03:19,638 --> 00:03:23,478 Prasanna Malaiyandi: do you do any home DIY projects by chance? 65 00:03:24,118 --> 00:03:28,398 Sagi Brody: I just finished, um, having a home built, uh, from scratch, but not 66 00:03:28,398 --> 00:03:33,213 myself, a contractor, but, um, What I can tell you is I, I wouldn't do it again. 67 00:03:33,423 --> 00:03:35,043 Um, it, 68 00:03:35,133 --> 00:03:37,833 W. Curtis Preston: I hear that from almost everybody that actually has 69 00:03:37,833 --> 00:03:42,303 a home built for them, um, is that it's a pretty stressful project. 70 00:03:42,993 --> 00:03:45,903 But, uh, there, there's basically two groups of people though in this world. 71 00:03:45,933 --> 00:03:50,613 There, there there's people like me who like to do a lot of DIY stuff, and I, I 72 00:03:50,613 --> 00:03:54,573 like to do it partially because I like to process and I like to do it because I, I. 73 00:03:55,083 --> 00:03:59,163 I get more, I can get more stuff done than what I could pay for if I 74 00:03:59,163 --> 00:04:00,423 had to pay somebody else to do it. 75 00:04:00,873 --> 00:04:05,373 And, but a but a friend of mine, uh, he learned from his dad the following 76 00:04:05,373 --> 00:04:10,503 phrase, Do what you do well so you can pay other people to do what they do well. 77 00:04:10,623 --> 00:04:14,673 And he does zero DIY and I can respect that as well. 78 00:04:14,673 --> 00:04:15,873 It's all good, you know. 79 00:04:16,503 --> 00:04:20,853 But, uh, anyway, so let, let's start with. 80 00:04:22,798 --> 00:04:27,198 A summary of what, you know, when I see your company, I see you 81 00:04:27,198 --> 00:04:29,388 talk a lot about hybrid computing. 82 00:04:29,928 --> 00:04:33,498 Uh, what sort of, you know, give us an overview of the company to start with. 83 00:04:33,918 --> 00:04:34,428 Sagi Brody: Sure. 84 00:04:34,458 --> 00:04:38,148 Um, well, Opti9 is a, a managed cloud provider. 85 00:04:39,333 --> 00:04:45,933 Two very vague terms, manage and cloud, um, talk all day about that. 86 00:04:45,933 --> 00:04:50,043 But yeah, so what we're doing is, you know, we we're managing production 87 00:04:50,423 --> 00:04:53,073 workloads for our customers, either in public clouds like aws. 88 00:04:54,343 --> 00:04:58,683 Or in private environments like virtual private clouds or host of private clouds, 89 00:04:58,953 --> 00:05:03,123 which we host in our data centers, which we have, uh, around the world. 90 00:05:03,123 --> 00:05:07,383 And, um, so there's sort of like the line of business of, of taking 91 00:05:07,443 --> 00:05:10,563 ownership and accountability for customers production environments. 92 00:05:10,563 --> 00:05:16,691 And then we have a, the side of the house where we're providing managed offsite 93 00:05:16,696 --> 00:05:18,821 backups and managed disaster recovery. 94 00:05:19,391 --> 00:05:23,681 . Um, and I would say sort of what's, what's interesting or, or what we 95 00:05:23,681 --> 00:05:27,461 find to be important is not, not so much the what, which is kind of what 96 00:05:27,461 --> 00:05:31,181 I just described, but more of like the how, how do we, how do we integrate 97 00:05:31,181 --> 00:05:36,461 those things within your existing framework of your network or security? 98 00:05:36,461 --> 00:05:36,781 How do we. 99 00:05:37,886 --> 00:05:41,786 Give you the best of both worlds so that you can consume these services 100 00:05:41,876 --> 00:05:44,546 in a, in a way that looks and feels and acts like it's part of your 101 00:05:44,546 --> 00:05:46,256 environment, but it's as a service. 102 00:05:46,256 --> 00:05:49,586 So it, it's definitely a bespoke sort of model. 103 00:05:49,886 --> 00:05:54,236 Um, and we, we get deep and, you know, a lot of people, a lot of organizations 104 00:05:54,236 --> 00:05:58,586 have, uh, technical debt and skeletons in their closets and weird platforms 105 00:05:58,586 --> 00:06:01,796 and you know, like sort of like the higher up the enterprise stack you 106 00:06:01,796 --> 00:06:04,186 go, the more edge cases you encounter. 107 00:06:04,541 --> 00:06:08,351 The less vendors that are out there that have an appetite to service 108 00:06:08,351 --> 00:06:12,861 those, and for whatever reason, that's where we sit and we like it 109 00:06:13,286 --> 00:06:15,266 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah, it's interesting cuz when you're talking 110 00:06:15,266 --> 00:06:18,686 initially about Oh yeah, we do hybrid cloud, I was like, why would someone 111 00:06:18,686 --> 00:06:20,816 choose like Opti9 tech, right? 112 00:06:20,816 --> 00:06:26,936 Versus, um, go with like an AWS or someone or like any of the other public. 113 00:06:27,266 --> 00:06:29,216 Cloud companies, but like you were just talking about, right? 114 00:06:29,216 --> 00:06:34,106 It's all those skeletons in the closets, the unique situations that you have 115 00:06:34,106 --> 00:06:37,796 the ability to sort of customize and support for versus like some of 116 00:06:37,796 --> 00:06:40,046 the public clouds, which is like, Hey, just onboard whatever you have. 117 00:06:40,051 --> 00:06:41,636 If it fits into what we have, great. 118 00:06:41,641 --> 00:06:42,536 If not, sorry. 119 00:06:43,586 --> 00:06:44,526 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, it, it. 120 00:06:45,371 --> 00:06:49,871 I would, I would guess what it sounds like is, you know, comparing you to an 121 00:06:50,411 --> 00:06:53,801 aws, you, it is that m it's the m right. 122 00:06:53,981 --> 00:06:57,791 You know, not, not everybody wants to actually manage a cloud environment. 123 00:06:57,791 --> 00:06:58,001 Right. 124 00:06:58,001 --> 00:07:02,021 They'll, they'll, they'll hand it over to you, but, uh, but they don't, 125 00:07:02,051 --> 00:07:03,311 they don't necessarily wanna manage. 126 00:07:03,311 --> 00:07:06,521 It sounds like you manage both the, the cloud side as well as the 127 00:07:06,521 --> 00:07:08,411 on-prem side, and that's, that would 128 00:07:08,471 --> 00:07:10,611 Sagi Brody: Yeah, well, so we're not actually, we're not 129 00:07:10,611 --> 00:07:13,681 actually manag anything, managing anything at our customers 130 00:07:13,686 --> 00:07:15,531 premises in their, in your office. 131 00:07:15,561 --> 00:07:20,001 Um, but within our, our facilities, um, which are all over the world, 132 00:07:20,301 --> 00:07:22,791 you know, we'll stand up a, you know, wanna call it a legacy environment, 133 00:07:22,791 --> 00:07:26,781 like a private VMware cluster and you know, which, which is analogous to 134 00:07:26,786 --> 00:07:27,981 what they have prem, which we can. 135 00:07:28,796 --> 00:07:29,696 Lift and shift. 136 00:07:29,756 --> 00:07:34,676 Um, but I, I think the overall, our, our tagline is Right cloud, 137 00:07:34,766 --> 00:07:36,026 right workload, right time. 138 00:07:37,136 --> 00:07:41,786 The idea is that, um, we wanna have the workload's best interest at heart. 139 00:07:41,876 --> 00:07:46,346 And you know, years ago you would hear people, you know, saying, I'm going 140 00:07:46,351 --> 00:07:49,766 all in, we're going all in with aws, we're going all in with Azure, We've 141 00:07:49,766 --> 00:07:51,746 picked our cloud, you know, strategy. 142 00:07:51,746 --> 00:07:52,946 And it, it's all gcp. 143 00:07:52,951 --> 00:07:56,426 And now I think the whole market has woken up to hybrid. 144 00:07:56,426 --> 00:07:59,486 And it's very safe to say hybrid because what you're saying is, I'm 145 00:07:59,486 --> 00:08:00,506 not ready to make a commitment. 146 00:08:00,506 --> 00:08:01,676 I might need this tomorrow. 147 00:08:01,676 --> 00:08:02,756 I might need that tomorrow. 148 00:08:02,936 --> 00:08:03,956 And that's what hybrid is. 149 00:08:03,956 --> 00:08:05,156 It's, it's mixing them and. 150 00:08:05,906 --> 00:08:08,426 What we're trying to do is to, to be, you know, sort of like 151 00:08:08,426 --> 00:08:13,076 fiduciary to the workloads and really build a, a reference architecture 152 00:08:13,076 --> 00:08:14,636 from a networking perspective. 153 00:08:15,086 --> 00:08:16,826 Um, for mo, for, for the hybrid. 154 00:08:16,826 --> 00:08:21,566 So if we are doing an audit on our customers environment and, you know, we, 155 00:08:21,566 --> 00:08:25,706 they have some legacy perpetual workloads that are gonna cost a lot less in a 156 00:08:25,706 --> 00:08:27,646 private cloud and be more performant. 157 00:08:28,256 --> 00:08:29,261 We'll put it there. 158 00:08:29,261 --> 00:08:33,281 If they're looking to build a, you know, retool an old I series retail 159 00:08:33,281 --> 00:08:38,681 application and have it be cloud native, we'll put it on aws, it'll actually help 160 00:08:38,681 --> 00:08:40,451 with the modernization of the app too. 161 00:08:40,451 --> 00:08:43,331 So it's hybrid from a platform perspective, but also from 162 00:08:43,331 --> 00:08:44,681 a migration strategies too. 163 00:08:44,686 --> 00:08:48,731 But I would say most importantly, you know, people are already hybrid. 164 00:08:48,731 --> 00:08:52,661 They have stuff in organizations, but kind of, you know, who owns the glue 165 00:08:52,661 --> 00:08:54,371 between those platforms and who's. 166 00:08:55,256 --> 00:08:58,916 You know, figuring out the integration strategies, and so oftentimes 167 00:08:58,916 --> 00:09:02,996 we'll do that, you know, for, for mid-market companies, we'll, we'll, 168 00:09:02,996 --> 00:09:06,416 we'll manage in both environments and we'll do the network integration 169 00:09:06,806 --> 00:09:08,346 back to wherever they need it to go. 170 00:09:09,746 --> 00:09:14,696 W. Curtis Preston: So if I'm, so, you know, I'm a customer thinking 171 00:09:14,696 --> 00:09:19,316 about using you, so it sounds like I have to move if I, if I'm, if I'm 172 00:09:19,316 --> 00:09:21,266 fully on-prim at this point, right? 173 00:09:21,656 --> 00:09:25,076 I have to move my workloads, or you help me move my workloads to 174 00:09:25,076 --> 00:09:29,966 either a cloud provider that you support or to your, uh, private 175 00:09:29,966 --> 00:09:32,006 cloud that's in your colo facilities. 176 00:09:32,006 --> 00:09:34,076 Is that, is that a correct summary statement? 177 00:09:34,406 --> 00:09:35,036 If I want you to. 178 00:09:35,921 --> 00:09:38,651 Sagi Brody: On the production side, but every, almost everything that 179 00:09:38,651 --> 00:09:42,221 we do from a, you know, an, an offsite backup and disaster recovery 180 00:09:42,221 --> 00:09:46,481 perspective is, is, you know, sort of responsive to existing environments. 181 00:09:46,481 --> 00:09:50,861 So, uh, we have tons of customers that are just using us to manage 182 00:09:50,866 --> 00:09:54,491 their local backups, um, and their backups to the cloud. 183 00:09:54,551 --> 00:09:57,641 And when it comes to disaster recovery, and kind of answer your 184 00:09:57,641 --> 00:10:00,251 question, why would somebody use us? 185 00:10:01,466 --> 00:10:03,296 You know, again, there's no right or wrong. 186 00:10:03,326 --> 00:10:06,386 I mean, go using AWS without a managed provider. 187 00:10:06,386 --> 00:10:07,046 That's fine. 188 00:10:07,106 --> 00:10:12,686 Um, using a data protection software and building your own target 189 00:10:12,686 --> 00:10:15,956 environment and building your own DR strategy, that's fine too. 190 00:10:17,381 --> 00:10:20,591 What we really ask people is like, and it's kind of like actually 191 00:10:20,591 --> 00:10:23,411 kind of like the quote that you said from, from your dad before. 192 00:10:23,801 --> 00:10:26,741 Look what is, you know, what do you have an appetite to be 193 00:10:26,746 --> 00:10:28,601 accountable for and responsible for? 194 00:10:28,601 --> 00:10:31,121 Do you wanna be in the business of managing your DR. 195 00:10:31,121 --> 00:10:33,851 Runbooks in perpetuity and nudging to be tested? 196 00:10:33,851 --> 00:10:35,741 And who, who should own fail over? 197 00:10:35,741 --> 00:10:36,821 Who should own fail failback? 198 00:10:36,851 --> 00:10:40,571 Who should own the consumption strategy, which is more important 199 00:10:40,571 --> 00:10:41,861 than just moving bits and bites. 200 00:10:41,861 --> 00:10:44,711 So that's where we, that's where, you know, it's all white glove. 201 00:10:44,761 --> 00:10:45,711 We're getting deep. 202 00:10:46,341 --> 00:10:48,221 We wanna see those network diagrams. 203 00:10:48,251 --> 00:10:53,471 We, we wanna, you know, make suggestions that are, are usable and don't require 204 00:10:53,471 --> 00:10:55,211 them to re IP their entire network. 205 00:10:55,241 --> 00:10:58,751 You know, so it's all about that, you know, it's a, we fit for those 206 00:10:58,751 --> 00:11:02,201 organizations that are looking to shift ownership and just hold 207 00:11:02,201 --> 00:11:03,821 someone accountable to an sla. 208 00:11:05,761 --> 00:11:05,961 W. Curtis Preston: Interesting. 209 00:11:05,966 --> 00:11:08,801 Uh, and by the way, uh, before we continue, I'll throughout our usual 210 00:11:08,801 --> 00:11:13,031 disclaimer, uh, I work for Druva, Prasanna works for Zoom, and this is 211 00:11:13,031 --> 00:11:16,361 not a podcast of either company and the opinions that you hear are ours. 212 00:11:16,991 --> 00:11:20,591 Uh, if you'd like to join the conversation, I am available 213 00:11:20,591 --> 00:11:22,151 at WC Preston on Twitter. 214 00:11:22,586 --> 00:11:26,106 Or, uh, you can reach me at w Curtis Preston gmail. 215 00:11:26,876 --> 00:11:33,326 And, um, then, uh, also be sure to rate us, um, I think by the time, I 216 00:11:33,326 --> 00:11:37,046 think by the time this goes live, our current comment special will probably 217 00:11:37,046 --> 00:11:38,666 be over, but, you know, we'll see. 218 00:11:38,666 --> 00:11:39,836 We'll see if we extend it. 219 00:11:40,166 --> 00:11:44,486 Uh, the idea was to get, uh, I think it was like eight new comments by 220 00:11:44,486 --> 00:11:48,266 the end of October, and I would continue to grow my beard and 221 00:11:48,266 --> 00:11:50,516 look, look more like Santa Claus by 222 00:11:50,546 --> 00:11:53,036 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Come on, people You want to see Curtis 223 00:11:53,096 --> 00:11:54,256 in a beard in a Santa Claus 224 00:11:54,256 --> 00:11:54,396 W. Curtis Preston: beard 225 00:11:54,396 --> 00:11:57,911 I'm, I'm, I'm, um, I've, I've been letting it grow. 226 00:11:58,451 --> 00:12:03,041 I, I, uh, Sagi, I've, I've been trimming it pretty tightly, uh, kinda 227 00:12:03,041 --> 00:12:06,851 like yours, and then I've been letting it grow because Prasanna over here 228 00:12:06,851 --> 00:12:09,911 has a, is it a, is it a three or yet? 229 00:12:10,061 --> 00:12:12,161 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Not a three year beard yet, so it's 230 00:12:12,161 --> 00:12:13,241 a two and a half year beard. 231 00:12:14,616 --> 00:12:14,736 Sagi Brody: You're 232 00:12:14,936 --> 00:12:17,936 W. Curtis Preston: So he didn't cut, He basically cut tast, cut his 233 00:12:17,936 --> 00:12:24,026 hair or his beard since, um, Covid and, um, I don't know, it's some 234 00:12:24,026 --> 00:12:25,796 sort of weird protest or something. 235 00:12:25,796 --> 00:12:29,336 But anyway, if you wanna see me grow my beard longer for Christmas and throw 236 00:12:29,336 --> 00:12:34,136 out a few more comments, we'd love to see comments, uh, on, uh, iTunes there. 237 00:12:34,646 --> 00:12:38,846 Um, I I am curious. 238 00:12:38,851 --> 00:12:44,126 So, so now, so the reason, right, so I get that basically you, you manage 239 00:12:44,126 --> 00:12:48,706 on-prem backup environments, but if I'm gonna move my production workloads 240 00:12:48,706 --> 00:12:55,706 to you, how I is, I guess one thing, and, and let's just assume for the 241 00:12:55,706 --> 00:12:58,736 moment that I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna retool, I'm not gonna refactor, 242 00:12:58,736 --> 00:13:03,116 I'm just gonna run, I'm gonna take my, my, my on-prem stuff and I'm gonna. 243 00:13:03,941 --> 00:13:09,851 Your cloud or their cloud I, Is there a cost advantage of one versus the other? 244 00:13:09,911 --> 00:13:13,661 Is yours less expensive than putting it, uh, you know, in 245 00:13:14,021 --> 00:13:16,221 AWS or VMware cloud on aws 246 00:13:17,291 --> 00:13:22,781 Sagi Brody: Well, almost everything is less expensive than VMware Cloud on aws. 247 00:13:24,341 --> 00:13:28,571 Um, I know we're not, Yeah, it's not about vendors, but I think I can say, say that 248 00:13:28,571 --> 00:13:31,661 as an independent, um, participant, um, 249 00:13:31,691 --> 00:13:36,191 W. Curtis Preston: It doesn't excel in, in, um, cost effectiveness 250 00:13:36,191 --> 00:13:37,001 is what you're saying. 251 00:13:37,361 --> 00:13:42,641 Sagi Brody: I, I think though that, um, VMware Cloud on aws, the fact that 252 00:13:42,641 --> 00:13:49,121 it's been successful is really a good story for folks like Opti9 and others. 253 00:13:49,121 --> 00:13:51,646 There's a lot of companies that are running, you know, private cloud as a 254 00:13:51,646 --> 00:13:56,556 service, and the reason that I think it's successful is, you know, and I'm 255 00:13:56,556 --> 00:14:00,396 sure you guys understand, is people were gonna shut down data centers. 256 00:14:00,396 --> 00:14:04,296 There's a lot of pressure on them to just sort of turn it off and they had 257 00:14:04,296 --> 00:14:10,026 to move their stuff and, you know, EC2 on AWS is, know you can run VMs, but 258 00:14:10,026 --> 00:14:13,446 it's not, the same as running VMware. 259 00:14:13,836 --> 00:14:18,306 Um, you know, it's designed to run, you know, sort of swarms of instances. 260 00:14:18,306 --> 00:14:21,906 There's no inherent per node redundancy, and it, it was 261 00:14:22,366 --> 00:14:23,706 designed for a different use case. 262 00:14:24,096 --> 00:14:28,026 Um, and they, and then you have the whole sort of just operational overhead. 263 00:14:28,056 --> 00:14:32,136 These people are very, very familiar with the VMware interface and, and, you know, 264 00:14:32,451 --> 00:14:33,711 Prasanna Malaiyandi: that's what I've heard a lot about. 265 00:14:33,711 --> 00:14:36,831 It's like once you have like a VMware admin trying to go beyond 266 00:14:36,831 --> 00:14:38,901 VMware, they're like, No, no, no, no. 267 00:14:38,901 --> 00:14:39,891 Kicking and screaming. 268 00:14:40,686 --> 00:14:41,166 Sagi Brody: Yeah. 269 00:14:41,166 --> 00:14:45,696 And so now you have, you know, basically move us to AWS because, you 270 00:14:45,696 --> 00:14:47,656 know, you can't go wrong picking aws. 271 00:14:47,661 --> 00:14:52,876 But, um, you know, so the right thing to do is, if you wanna bring it to EC2 272 00:14:52,896 --> 00:14:56,436 and to AWS in general, is let's, let's, let's retool it to be cloud native. 273 00:14:56,436 --> 00:15:02,016 Let's take advantage of PaaS, um, and SQL as a service and function as a service. 274 00:15:02,796 --> 00:15:06,786 You know, how long is it gonna take to rewrite all these applications and do 275 00:15:06,786 --> 00:15:08,106 we even want to rewrite all of them? 276 00:15:08,106 --> 00:15:11,286 So, so VMC was this really good middle ground where it's like, Hey, 277 00:15:11,286 --> 00:15:15,396 everything stays the same from a, from a technology perspective and interface 278 00:15:15,401 --> 00:15:18,696 and operations and management, and you get to shut down your data center. 279 00:15:19,116 --> 00:15:20,496 Um, and that's great. 280 00:15:20,501 --> 00:15:25,326 I think what's different about companies like, like Opti9 and all the other 281 00:15:25,326 --> 00:15:26,616 iterations that are out there is. 282 00:15:28,821 --> 00:15:32,991 Vmc with vmc, they have to kind of, they have to kind of, it's like the Borg. 283 00:15:32,991 --> 00:15:36,171 They have to assimilate everything into the AWS model. 284 00:15:36,231 --> 00:15:37,821 And you know, that's a scale company. 285 00:15:37,821 --> 00:15:39,831 So, um, you can't run a lot. 286 00:15:39,831 --> 00:15:42,261 Like, for instance, you can't run a lot of the data protection 287 00:15:42,261 --> 00:15:44,301 tools, um, that run on VMware. 288 00:15:44,301 --> 00:15:47,631 They won't run on vmc, um, because you don't get sort of 289 00:15:47,661 --> 00:15:49,551 native root access to esxi. 290 00:15:50,361 --> 00:15:54,801 Um, and also if you try to put it inside your network, like one, one of the things 291 00:15:54,801 --> 00:16:00,211 that I like doing, You know, integrating our cloud services into a customer's 292 00:16:00,216 --> 00:16:05,571 existing MPLS or sdwan network from the closest location from the same metro. 293 00:16:05,571 --> 00:16:08,331 So it looks and feels and acts like it's in just another node. 294 00:16:08,841 --> 00:16:12,561 You, It's hard to do that with vmc and it's a lot of steps to go through. 295 00:16:12,566 --> 00:16:15,381 So I use VMC as an example, you know. 296 00:16:15,711 --> 00:16:20,331 That there is a model for these regional service providers, and if you can do all 297 00:16:20,331 --> 00:16:24,141 the things that they do, they can do, but you have this level of flexibility 298 00:16:24,141 --> 00:16:27,891 and customization and oh, you gotta put a half rack worth of networking 299 00:16:27,891 --> 00:16:29,241 gear in front of it, no problem. 300 00:16:29,301 --> 00:16:32,421 Oh, you have an MSSP that needs to monitor every packet. 301 00:16:32,421 --> 00:16:33,021 No problem. 302 00:16:33,026 --> 00:16:34,641 It's kind of like that, you know? 303 00:16:34,701 --> 00:16:35,121 Um, 304 00:16:35,271 --> 00:16:36,681 Prasanna Malaiyandi: A bespoke model a little. 305 00:16:37,431 --> 00:16:37,881 Sagi Brody: Yeah. 306 00:16:37,941 --> 00:16:38,361 Yeah. 307 00:16:38,781 --> 00:16:42,886 Um, but, but to answer your question on cost, the least expensive 308 00:16:42,886 --> 00:16:47,806 solution is the one that is, it is best sort of tuned for the use case. 309 00:16:48,256 --> 00:16:54,286 So I do think running a, a SaaS platform, a modern day SaaS platform on a private 310 00:16:54,291 --> 00:16:59,236 cloud is probably, it's, it's, it's not gonna be very cost effective at scale 311 00:16:59,241 --> 00:17:03,526 when you start talking about traffic and also to run perpetual VMs like 312 00:17:04,246 --> 00:17:07,366 legacy ERP systems and so on, on EC2. 313 00:17:07,576 --> 00:17:08,896 It's, it's overkill. 314 00:17:08,926 --> 00:17:14,536 And I'd say one of the things that people forget when they move to the cloud is 315 00:17:14,566 --> 00:17:18,496 they've all been sold on virtualization on-prem, years and years ago. 316 00:17:18,916 --> 00:17:23,686 And one of the reasons was, um, based on over subscription. 317 00:17:23,716 --> 00:17:26,926 Hey, you can provision 16 gigs of memory on all your VMs and only 318 00:17:26,926 --> 00:17:28,456 use four or five or whatever. 319 00:17:28,576 --> 00:17:32,596 When you move to public cloud to EC2, to Azure, you're going backwards. 320 00:17:32,596 --> 00:17:36,256 You're paying for provisioned again, um, whether you use it or not. 321 00:17:36,901 --> 00:17:37,591 Hey, that's okay. 322 00:17:37,591 --> 00:17:41,611 If you're using Ansible or Puppet or cloud formations to automatically 323 00:17:41,731 --> 00:17:44,791 deploy and resize VMs, who cares? 324 00:17:45,121 --> 00:17:49,801 But if you're moving a perpetual vm, like you want that over subscription benefit, 325 00:17:50,041 --> 00:17:54,091 so the private cloud retains that part of it for you, which is really interesting. 326 00:17:54,126 --> 00:17:54,476 W. Curtis Preston: Mm, 327 00:17:54,646 --> 00:17:57,346 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I believe though, with VMC though, it would still hold 328 00:17:57,346 --> 00:17:59,896 that same ability to over provision. 329 00:17:59,896 --> 00:18:00,196 Right. 330 00:18:00,256 --> 00:18:00,826 Just base, 331 00:18:00,946 --> 00:18:02,206 W. Curtis Preston: within the VMC world. 332 00:18:02,326 --> 00:18:02,536 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 333 00:18:02,566 --> 00:18:03,436 Within the VMC world. 334 00:18:04,381 --> 00:18:05,161 Sagi Brody: Absolutely. 335 00:18:05,161 --> 00:18:08,521 And that's, that's a really big factor that I, I think regardless of where you 336 00:18:08,521 --> 00:18:12,031 go, what you do, people, it just kind of like, just forget about that aspect. 337 00:18:12,181 --> 00:18:13,441 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Which is a big thing. 338 00:18:13,441 --> 00:18:16,741 I think a lot of people don't realize, like the entire reason they went 339 00:18:16,741 --> 00:18:21,351 virtualized was to deal with the, Yeah, I don't know the exact size and how 340 00:18:21,351 --> 00:18:25,761 can I overprovision and not waste a bunch of resources and Interesting. 341 00:18:25,766 --> 00:18:25,821 Yeah. 342 00:18:25,881 --> 00:18:28,201 I'd never thought about the fact of, yeah, moving to EC2, 343 00:18:28,221 --> 00:18:30,171 you're losing those benefits 344 00:18:31,386 --> 00:18:35,106 W. Curtis Preston: And now instead of, instead of sharing something that you 345 00:18:35,196 --> 00:18:40,956 own, you're now renting something that you don't own and you're paying, you're 346 00:18:40,956 --> 00:18:42,666 paying for the whole thing, right? 347 00:18:42,976 --> 00:18:47,561 I would argue that the better utilization of resources was the 348 00:18:48,291 --> 00:18:51,361 OG reason for virtualization. 349 00:18:51,596 --> 00:18:55,376 But to me, and again, maybe it's because I see things the 350 00:18:55,376 --> 00:18:58,736 way I do, to me backup and DR. 351 00:18:59,456 --> 00:19:05,066 Is like, if you do it right, uh, and, and things like ha and all of that stuff 352 00:19:05,071 --> 00:19:06,596 that you can do with virtualization. 353 00:19:06,596 --> 00:19:11,636 Like you can't do vmotion you know, with, with a, with a physical box. 354 00:19:11,996 --> 00:19:12,356 Right. 355 00:19:12,361 --> 00:19:15,566 It just, it just, well, you can, it just doesn't do anything right. 356 00:19:15,866 --> 00:19:21,266 But, um, things like that, that just simp the idea. 357 00:19:21,791 --> 00:19:24,551 It's just, there were just so many things that we could do from a backup 358 00:19:24,551 --> 00:19:29,321 and DR perspective now that just simply weren't possible in the old days. 359 00:19:29,411 --> 00:19:32,621 Now there was that period and you know, it sounds like Sagi, you've been 360 00:19:32,626 --> 00:19:36,971 in this long enough that you remember that period when, when VMware came out. 361 00:19:37,886 --> 00:19:42,791 and backup just broke, like, like overnight because everybody just kept 362 00:19:42,796 --> 00:19:44,171 running their same old, same old. 363 00:19:44,471 --> 00:19:47,861 Um, you know, And that's what created essentially the market for Veeam in 364 00:19:47,861 --> 00:19:51,311 the first place was all the traditional backup products were just broke. 365 00:19:51,731 --> 00:19:53,051 Um, and, and, 366 00:19:53,051 --> 00:19:55,091 eventually we got there, right? 367 00:19:55,751 --> 00:19:55,961 Sagi Brody: yeah. 368 00:19:55,961 --> 00:19:59,271 I mean, our, our backup software, you know, was rsync. 369 00:19:59,351 --> 00:20:02,291 That's, uh, what we ran, you know, a very long time ago. 370 00:20:02,291 --> 00:20:03,821 And then VMware, there was nothing. 371 00:20:03,821 --> 00:20:07,001 We, there, there was a script called, uh, Ghetto vcp, which 372 00:20:07,001 --> 00:20:08,861 is what everybody ran, you know? 373 00:20:08,861 --> 00:20:12,616 And, uh, It was called ghetto BCP for a reason, you know? 374 00:20:12,956 --> 00:20:14,756 Um, but, but I agree with you. 375 00:20:14,756 --> 00:20:20,366 I think once you get things, once you get sort of, sort of these, um, objects, 376 00:20:20,366 --> 00:20:24,686 servers, connections, whatever, into, uh, like a virtual construct Yeah. 377 00:20:24,686 --> 00:20:27,986 You can manipulate 'em in so many interesting ways. 378 00:20:28,046 --> 00:20:30,686 Um, I mean, listen, we still do DR. 379 00:20:30,716 --> 00:20:35,816 Today for physical servers and iSeries and P series and NFS and all the skeletons. 380 00:20:35,816 --> 00:20:36,686 Do we like doing it? 381 00:20:37,046 --> 00:20:39,396 No, it's not as easy as doing VMs. 382 00:20:39,751 --> 00:20:40,311 W. Curtis Preston: Right. 383 00:20:40,376 --> 00:20:44,666 Sagi Brody: the RPOs and RTOs are not the same, but you know, when 384 00:20:44,671 --> 00:20:48,056 things are image based, there are so many cool things you can do with it. 385 00:20:48,206 --> 00:20:51,596 I'll give you my favorite example is when people think about DR. 386 00:20:52,406 --> 00:20:55,256 From, and I'm not like an old school networking guy, so from a, from a 387 00:20:55,256 --> 00:21:01,646 connectivity perspective, um, whereas the virtualization might be replicated, you 388 00:21:01,646 --> 00:21:06,221 know, using images in these cool ways, connectivity is still often thought of 389 00:21:06,221 --> 00:21:09,791 in the old school way, where if I have, you know, three private connections 390 00:21:09,791 --> 00:21:14,062 at my production, one's going to Fiserv and one's going Mackenzie, and 391 00:21:14,067 --> 00:21:18,371 one's going to Bloomberg or whatever, and my MPLS, I, I still need to 392 00:21:18,371 --> 00:21:20,621 duplicate all of those at the DR site. 393 00:21:21,071 --> 00:21:23,621 And then I have to pay for double the circuits and I have 394 00:21:23,621 --> 00:21:24,901 to have double the overhead. 395 00:21:24,906 --> 00:21:28,151 And by the way, no one is monitoring those circuits until 396 00:21:28,151 --> 00:21:29,111 I actually have to use them. 397 00:21:29,111 --> 00:21:31,511 And then we find out they've been down for six months and blah, blah. 398 00:21:32,276 --> 00:21:36,116 So one of the really cool things that we've been, we've been using, um, and it's 399 00:21:36,116 --> 00:21:40,106 not something that we even sell, but if you look at these network as a service 400 00:21:40,106 --> 00:21:47,396 platforms, um, the likes of Packet Fabric or Megaport, or even Equinix, uh, Ecx, you 401 00:21:47,396 --> 00:21:52,446 know, if, if you take that cross, connect that transport circuit and you, and you 402 00:21:52,451 --> 00:21:58,111 plug it into their fabric instead, you can fail over and fail back the physical 403 00:21:58,116 --> 00:22:00,041 connectivity from production to DR. 404 00:22:00,281 --> 00:22:02,021 Just like you do your VMs. 405 00:22:02,111 --> 00:22:02,441 Right? 406 00:22:02,441 --> 00:22:05,171 And and to me that's, that's the coolest thing, right? 407 00:22:05,171 --> 00:22:10,421 Cause now I'm saving money and now I'm using that always during production too. 408 00:22:10,426 --> 00:22:12,401 So if it breaks, I know immediately. 409 00:22:12,701 --> 00:22:14,801 And I think it's tangible, you know? 410 00:22:15,041 --> 00:22:18,371 Um, and it reduces the complexity greatly. 411 00:22:18,371 --> 00:22:21,311 So this whole software defined, you know, buzzword. 412 00:22:21,926 --> 00:22:26,456 For me as being someone who has to design DR infrastructure, um, I can 413 00:22:26,456 --> 00:22:30,986 use that and leverage it to simplify and, and, you know, reduce the rto. 414 00:22:31,256 --> 00:22:32,996 Prasanna Malaiyandi: That's very interesting. 415 00:22:32,996 --> 00:22:35,036 I never thought, like, normally when I think about. 416 00:22:35,801 --> 00:22:37,331 Doing DR testing, right? 417 00:22:37,331 --> 00:22:38,651 It's like, Hey, can I fail over? 418 00:22:38,651 --> 00:22:39,431 Can I bring it up? 419 00:22:39,431 --> 00:22:42,341 But the networking aspect you just talked about, right? 420 00:22:42,341 --> 00:22:46,661 It's like you really have to validate that entire stack top to bottom. 421 00:22:46,991 --> 00:22:50,231 Not only of does your VM come up, but does your app come up? 422 00:22:50,231 --> 00:22:51,881 Is your networking all good to go? 423 00:22:52,211 --> 00:22:52,571 Right? 424 00:22:52,571 --> 00:22:55,751 Does all the connectivity services all come up as well that you need 425 00:22:55,751 --> 00:22:57,311 in order for it to be operational? 426 00:22:58,316 --> 00:22:59,576 Sagi Brody: Yeah, I mean, DR. 427 00:22:59,606 --> 00:23:02,726 Uh, networking is like the dirty little secret of DR. 428 00:23:02,876 --> 00:23:04,856 You know, copying data is, is easy. 429 00:23:04,856 --> 00:23:07,976 I mean, you know, companies like Druva and Veeam and, and many others have 430 00:23:07,976 --> 00:23:12,536 done a really good job of, of data replication and data assurance and, 431 00:23:12,836 --> 00:23:15,476 and, and, you know, I mean, they're, they're just amazing at what they do. 432 00:23:15,526 --> 00:23:18,626 Um, But devil's in the details. 433 00:23:18,626 --> 00:23:21,716 And so the first question I usually ask is, how are you gonna consume? 434 00:23:21,776 --> 00:23:23,156 You know, what does consumption look like? 435 00:23:23,156 --> 00:23:27,686 And the answer kind of changes if we're talking about a full failover versus a 436 00:23:27,686 --> 00:23:30,506 partial failover, and so on and so forth. 437 00:23:31,586 --> 00:23:34,316 W. Curtis Preston: And then you, you add, you know, we, we, we just 438 00:23:34,316 --> 00:23:38,636 recorded yesterday, we recorded a, an episode where we, we were, we've been 439 00:23:38,636 --> 00:23:42,896 doing a back to basic series and uh, we recorded an episode yesterday that 440 00:23:42,896 --> 00:23:47,396 was just like, why we back up and, you know, all the things that can go wrong. 441 00:23:47,401 --> 00:23:49,166 That backup is backup and DR. 442 00:23:49,171 --> 00:23:50,006 Are meant to fix. 443 00:23:50,336 --> 00:23:51,086 And we, we talked. 444 00:23:52,131 --> 00:23:53,441 A true disaster, right? 445 00:23:53,441 --> 00:23:57,071 We were talking about things like hurricanes and giant floods that take out 446 00:23:57,101 --> 00:24:04,151 regions and one of the real challenges is, okay, how do you do connectivity to your 447 00:24:04,151 --> 00:24:09,941 apps when, um, everybody is now working out of Starbucks and you are running out 448 00:24:09,941 --> 00:24:12,101 of a cloud provider in another region? 449 00:24:12,821 --> 00:24:16,061 Um, you know, there, there's all those things that you have to count on that, 450 00:24:16,331 --> 00:24:18,071 that, that aren't necessarily available. 451 00:24:18,491 --> 00:24:22,461 Um, I, I wanted to go back to there, there was a thought that Prasanna 452 00:24:22,481 --> 00:24:25,631 that you brought up earlier, I think that was you that talked about, 453 00:24:26,231 --> 00:24:29,801 you know, the, the OG reason why we went with, with virtualization. 454 00:24:30,341 --> 00:24:34,281 When I think about the cloud, like, like, like a true IaaS 455 00:24:34,301 --> 00:24:38,351 provider, um, to me that big reason. 456 00:24:38,936 --> 00:24:42,176 Like, it may not be it, it definitely is not the reason most 457 00:24:42,176 --> 00:24:43,586 people go to the cloud today. 458 00:24:43,966 --> 00:24:46,826 I, I think they, they go to the cloud for false reasons, but the 459 00:24:46,826 --> 00:24:53,636 true beauty of, of an IAS vendor is that dynamic allocation of resources. 460 00:24:53,666 --> 00:24:55,286 I need a VM boom. 461 00:24:55,406 --> 00:24:57,926 I need a, I need a PaaS platform. 462 00:24:57,931 --> 00:24:58,166 Boom. 463 00:24:59,006 --> 00:25:00,086 I don't need it anymore. 464 00:25:00,086 --> 00:25:01,676 Boom, , right? 465 00:25:02,036 --> 00:25:04,206 That, that, uh, that, that automatic. 466 00:25:04,916 --> 00:25:08,576 You know, allocation and de allocation of resources and paying 467 00:25:08,576 --> 00:25:10,256 for them only when you use them. 468 00:25:10,706 --> 00:25:12,326 That that's the thing. 469 00:25:12,326 --> 00:25:15,416 Going back to when we talked about virtualization, the stuff that is 470 00:25:15,826 --> 00:25:19,436 possible now that wasn't possible then that's the thing that is possible 471 00:25:19,466 --> 00:25:24,176 only in a public or, you know, cloud environment or I guess private cloud 472 00:25:24,176 --> 00:25:25,736 environment like yours as well. 473 00:25:26,756 --> 00:25:31,436 Where you can just grab a bunch of stuff, use it, and then get rid of it and pay for 474 00:25:31,436 --> 00:25:33,086 it for the three hours that you had it. 475 00:25:33,686 --> 00:25:38,516 That, to me, is the beauty of the public cloud, and if you're not 476 00:25:38,521 --> 00:25:44,486 leveraging that, you're not really, you're not really getting the, 477 00:25:44,486 --> 00:25:45,836 the beauty of the public cloud. 478 00:25:45,836 --> 00:25:47,936 I don't know what, what do you think about that, that thought? 479 00:25:48,056 --> 00:25:52,346 Sagi Brody: You're absolutely right because, and, and I, I, I talk up, I 480 00:25:52,346 --> 00:25:55,766 talk about that sometimes with people and I tell them, when you're paying for 481 00:25:55,766 --> 00:26:00,686 EC2 instances, you know you're paying for the APIs, you're paying for the 482 00:26:00,686 --> 00:26:02,546 pleasure of being able to do all that. 483 00:26:02,546 --> 00:26:06,056 And if you're, and if you're not actually using it, if your goal is 484 00:26:06,056 --> 00:26:11,246 to deploy 20 windows VMs with 16 gigs of memory and maintain that in 485 00:26:11,246 --> 00:26:14,516 perpetuity, um, you're overpaying you. 486 00:26:16,481 --> 00:26:16,736 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 487 00:26:17,261 --> 00:26:22,301 Sagi Brody: So it is true, and I think people that are using, you need to be 488 00:26:22,301 --> 00:26:26,201 using X number of PaaS features, you know, to really sell me on the fact 489 00:26:26,201 --> 00:26:27,821 that you need to be in public cloud. 490 00:26:27,851 --> 00:26:33,536 And you know, I would say in general today, With all of this, 491 00:26:33,566 --> 00:26:36,176 the, the real threat is complexity. 492 00:26:36,416 --> 00:26:40,616 That's the killer and everybody in it, they're part of their goal should 493 00:26:40,616 --> 00:26:46,186 be on sort of watching complexity, sprawl and reigning in complexity. 494 00:26:46,606 --> 00:26:50,386 Um, because, you know, as you're aware, you know, the more complex, the harder 495 00:26:50,391 --> 00:26:54,256 it's to manage, the harder it is to ensure it falls into your resilience, you 496 00:26:54,256 --> 00:26:56,427 know, goals, um, or your compliance goals 497 00:26:56,561 --> 00:26:58,231 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Or, Or your security goals. 498 00:26:58,231 --> 00:26:58,531 Right. 499 00:26:59,326 --> 00:27:02,956 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, one of, one of my mantras is complexity equals risk, 500 00:27:03,556 --> 00:27:03,841 Sagi Brody: Yeah. 501 00:27:04,051 --> 00:27:04,471 Yeah. 502 00:27:04,921 --> 00:27:07,951 And, and even like people that are like, you know, you have, you know, 503 00:27:08,011 --> 00:27:12,421 departments going and, and just running, um, just using SaaS platforms. 504 00:27:12,426 --> 00:27:16,411 I mean, it's great from a functionality, uh, perspective, but, you know, 505 00:27:16,416 --> 00:27:19,111 how does that, how, how does that relate to those different things? 506 00:27:19,111 --> 00:27:20,761 How does it relate to resilience? 507 00:27:20,761 --> 00:27:23,491 And going back to, um, what you were saying before about 508 00:27:23,491 --> 00:27:25,021 sort of DR testing, Right. 509 00:27:25,381 --> 00:27:28,981 One of the interesting scenarios that's popped up with this and DR. 510 00:27:30,671 --> 00:27:34,921 , you know, if you are, if part of your production environment is, you know, 511 00:27:34,981 --> 00:27:39,781 Office 365 and um, Salesforce and Workday, and like you have, you know, critical 512 00:27:39,781 --> 00:27:44,911 data that's sitting there, um, and your, your own applications are speaking to 513 00:27:44,911 --> 00:27:49,231 them and integrated via APIs, can you actually do a DR test on your application? 514 00:27:49,231 --> 00:27:51,151 Like when you bring up your app and DR. 515 00:27:51,611 --> 00:27:53,881 I, if you haven't blocked off your firewall right? 516 00:27:53,881 --> 00:27:57,591 And you start going in the app and making changes and playing with it and meanwhile. 517 00:27:57,961 --> 00:28:01,411 It's connecting to your QuickBooks instance or your Salesforce, and 518 00:28:01,411 --> 00:28:04,681 you're changing production data, like this whole thing around you. 519 00:28:04,681 --> 00:28:08,161 You can actually poison your production environment by doing DR testing. 520 00:28:08,761 --> 00:28:12,121 So, you know, we talk to our customers about that and you 521 00:28:12,121 --> 00:28:13,441 know, how do you account for that? 522 00:28:13,441 --> 00:28:15,991 And, um, it's not, so easy sometimes, 523 00:28:16,111 --> 00:28:19,051 W. Curtis Preston: of the major platforms, you know, the say three 524 00:28:19,051 --> 00:28:20,731 or four top platforms like that. 525 00:28:21,031 --> 00:28:23,851 The one that I think gets that right is Salesforce, right? 526 00:28:23,851 --> 00:28:26,181 Because they'll give you that sandbox environment. 527 00:28:26,511 --> 00:28:29,751 There's not, I'm not aware, I don't think there's a sandbox. 528 00:28:29,751 --> 00:28:31,191 Microsoft 365 529 00:28:31,986 --> 00:28:34,896 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Maybe you clone your SharePoint site 530 00:28:34,911 --> 00:28:35,331 Sagi Brody: Yeah. 531 00:28:35,336 --> 00:28:40,071 I mean, the sandbox is nice, but now you have to, you know, um, and we've probably 532 00:28:40,071 --> 00:28:45,126 thought about this way too much, but now you have to, um, Where am I doing, Where 533 00:28:45,126 --> 00:28:47,286 am I doing the, the split to the sandbox? 534 00:28:47,286 --> 00:28:50,496 Is it in my application and I have to go tell all my devs to run two 535 00:28:50,496 --> 00:28:52,026 configs and I hit a button in the app? 536 00:28:52,031 --> 00:28:56,466 Am I doing it at the network layer where I'm proxying the connections 537 00:28:56,466 --> 00:28:58,356 and I'm redirecting it to the sandbox? 538 00:28:58,356 --> 00:29:01,296 And you know, going back to what you said, it's all, it's all either 539 00:29:01,301 --> 00:29:02,586 way, it's all complexity and. 540 00:29:03,531 --> 00:29:06,231 I don't think it's a problem, but I think these are some of the things that 541 00:29:06,231 --> 00:29:10,761 people need to think about at the very beginning, before they go and run and jump 542 00:29:10,761 --> 00:29:13,041 on this SaaS or that SaaS or this or that. 543 00:29:13,341 --> 00:29:15,681 You really have to kind of look at the big picture holistically. 544 00:29:16,386 --> 00:29:21,826 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, if, if your DR test is going to be actually 545 00:29:21,936 --> 00:29:26,166 changing things in SaaS environments. 546 00:29:26,171 --> 00:29:27,816 Yeah, I hadn't even thought about that actually. 547 00:29:27,816 --> 00:29:32,976 But if it is, you absolutely can poison your, your production environment. 548 00:29:33,276 --> 00:29:35,616 Sagi Brody: I've seen it happen, happen with the hospital where they, 549 00:29:35,616 --> 00:29:39,306 they turned it on and they use a third party, you know, pharmaceutical 550 00:29:39,306 --> 00:29:42,666 service for prescriptions and they put in a test prescription and, you 551 00:29:42,671 --> 00:29:45,516 know, all of a sudden something pops outta the machine for, for John Doe. 552 00:29:45,936 --> 00:29:47,076 And it's not supposed to be there, 553 00:29:47,426 --> 00:29:47,776 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Oh 554 00:29:48,276 --> 00:29:49,406 W. Curtis Preston: That's not good. 555 00:29:49,469 --> 00:29:52,933 Yeah, I can think of all sorts of things where that happens and yeah. 556 00:29:53,203 --> 00:29:59,053 My, my concern of the SaaS, the modern day SaaS world, as, as much as, you know, 557 00:29:59,263 --> 00:30:01,663 I, I work at a SaaS provider, right? 558 00:30:01,933 --> 00:30:06,823 But my concern of the modern day SaaS world is, well, two concerns. 559 00:30:06,823 --> 00:30:09,883 One is the one you talked about about complexity. 560 00:30:10,093 --> 00:30:14,593 You can have hundreds of SaaS providers that do various little things for you. 561 00:30:15,133 --> 00:30:18,943 And, uh, I remember, uh, Prasanna, you remember when we interviewed that one 562 00:30:18,948 --> 00:30:23,263 person who worked at a, you know, a startup, We asked them how many SaaS 563 00:30:23,263 --> 00:30:25,723 providers they said, and they said 450. 564 00:30:27,048 --> 00:30:28,368 , Holy crap. 565 00:30:28,368 --> 00:30:31,278 Like how do you, how do you, like you said, how do you rein that in? 566 00:30:31,368 --> 00:30:35,118 How do you manage, um, you know, provisioning to that and, and, 567 00:30:35,418 --> 00:30:37,308 and, uh, sso to that and all that. 568 00:30:37,308 --> 00:30:39,198 I mean, I guess that's what Okta's for. 569 00:30:39,648 --> 00:30:46,728 But number two, and real, really this is number one, is, um, how many of 570 00:30:46,728 --> 00:30:50,718 those SaaS apps have data that is critical to your production requirement 571 00:30:50,718 --> 00:30:54,168 that, that your production environment that you're creating in that SaaS. 572 00:30:55,168 --> 00:30:58,268 and then there is no backup of that data. 573 00:30:58,898 --> 00:30:59,348 Right? 574 00:30:59,738 --> 00:31:01,838 And the answer is all of it, right? 575 00:31:01,838 --> 00:31:10,388 99% of SaaS customers don't do squat for backup of their SaaS environment, and 576 00:31:10,388 --> 00:31:15,218 they think that people like you and me that happen to sell services to do that. 577 00:31:15,678 --> 00:31:19,488 We're just being fear mongers when we tell them that Microsoft 365 578 00:31:19,488 --> 00:31:20,958 might delete all their data one day. 579 00:31:22,668 --> 00:31:28,368 Sagi Brody: It's, it's a very, there's so many bad assumptions in, in the industry. 580 00:31:28,368 --> 00:31:31,143 I mean, not, it's not the industry, it's just the complexity. 581 00:31:31,143 --> 00:31:33,213 You know, like it's, it's a good example. 582 00:31:33,218 --> 00:31:36,933 And, uh, you know, with Office 365, certainly they have multiple 583 00:31:36,963 --> 00:31:38,163 data centers and your data. 584 00:31:38,958 --> 00:31:39,958 Is resilient. 585 00:31:39,963 --> 00:31:42,858 If one of those data centers, you know, goes down or blows 586 00:31:42,858 --> 00:31:44,358 up, you know, you're fine. 587 00:31:44,448 --> 00:31:48,258 But, you know, can you, can you hit the rewind button and 588 00:31:48,258 --> 00:31:50,148 bring back your office 365? 589 00:31:50,448 --> 00:31:54,048 And, you know, as it looked like two weeks ago, you know, like you can do 590 00:31:54,048 --> 00:31:55,578 in a, in a traditional environment. 591 00:31:55,578 --> 00:31:56,178 No, you can't do that. 592 00:31:56,178 --> 00:31:57,078 Absolutely not. 593 00:31:57,438 --> 00:32:00,148 And I, I think there's, there's so many gotchas in the market. 594 00:32:00,148 --> 00:32:03,748 I mean, one that, that we have been looking at recently, we actually 595 00:32:03,748 --> 00:32:07,488 launched a product called Observer to kind of try to mitigate it, and it's 596 00:32:07,493 --> 00:32:13,288 kind of been my baby, um, for the last few months, is we realize that the 597 00:32:13,288 --> 00:32:17,998 backup and the backup and replication software running at the customer's 598 00:32:17,998 --> 00:32:21,658 production environments have now become this sort of new attack surface. 599 00:32:22,458 --> 00:32:23,598 Attackers are going after. 600 00:32:23,598 --> 00:32:27,118 And it makes total sense if you're, if your golden life is to ransomware 601 00:32:27,138 --> 00:32:31,098 companies and get as much money as you can outta them, then of course the 602 00:32:31,098 --> 00:32:33,468 first thing you do when you get . In is you're gonna go look for all those 603 00:32:33,468 --> 00:32:36,768 backups and those replicas and the DR site and try to destroy everything. 604 00:32:37,188 --> 00:32:39,258 It increases your likelihood of getting paid. 605 00:32:39,258 --> 00:32:43,188 And what we realized was that a lot of, a lot of people, you know, 606 00:32:43,728 --> 00:32:46,728 mistakenly are using the same authentication for those tools locally. 607 00:32:47,058 --> 00:32:49,248 And if an attacker gets into. 608 00:32:50,008 --> 00:32:55,263 , Um, they can destroy everything at the, you know, at, at the DR site in seconds. 609 00:32:55,263 --> 00:32:57,513 You know, there's no such thing as immutability when it comes 610 00:32:57,513 --> 00:33:01,263 to disaster recovery for almost all, all the tools I've seen. 611 00:33:01,593 --> 00:33:03,813 Um, and even with backups, there's immutability. 612 00:33:03,818 --> 00:33:07,623 But you know, they can also delete stuff beyond that and they can 613 00:33:07,623 --> 00:33:10,623 also disable your jobs and weight out the immutability timers. 614 00:33:10,623 --> 00:33:17,163 So, and so what we did was we realized we're already connected into our customers 615 00:33:17,223 --> 00:33:21,573 on-prem software, like just to pull whatever data we need to manage it. 616 00:33:21,573 --> 00:33:25,023 And so what we started to do was we ran the, we are running the data through, 617 00:33:25,563 --> 00:33:28,683 um, machine learning and artificial intelligence, and we're looking for, 618 00:33:28,683 --> 00:33:32,493 quote unquote suspicious activity that an attacker might perform. 619 00:33:32,973 --> 00:33:36,873 Um, things like, uh, encryption being disabled, um, on backups 620 00:33:36,873 --> 00:33:41,223 or retention being modified, or, uh, jobs being modified, or 621 00:33:41,223 --> 00:33:42,573 all the backups being deleted. 622 00:33:42,573 --> 00:33:43,933 All these, you know, different things. 623 00:33:44,143 --> 00:33:48,243 And we baseline what's normal for that site and what's not normal. 624 00:33:48,483 --> 00:33:51,293 And then we set out threat alerts and we also, you know, integrate it 625 00:33:51,363 --> 00:33:55,023 with some security tools cuz they don't have access to this landscape. 626 00:33:55,773 --> 00:33:59,163 And then we also did this other cool thing where if and when this happens, 627 00:33:59,163 --> 00:34:03,603 we can automatically air gap the offsite disaster recovery and backups environment. 628 00:34:03,603 --> 00:34:09,603 So I'm really excited about that because within my organization everyone's like, 629 00:34:09,603 --> 00:34:12,123 Oh, we should do more for security, we should do more for security. 630 00:34:12,153 --> 00:34:12,643 And it. 631 00:34:13,413 --> 00:34:16,323 How do we, like, we're not a security company, but this is an 632 00:34:16,323 --> 00:34:17,643 area that we know a lot about. 633 00:34:17,703 --> 00:34:22,023 And if most people are coming to us to buy those services because they're concerned 634 00:34:22,023 --> 00:34:25,743 about security, hey, maybe we can, you know, address it in a more direct way. 635 00:34:26,533 --> 00:34:28,633 Prasanna Malaiyandi: It's another line of defense, if you will, right. 636 00:34:28,663 --> 00:34:29,143 That says, 637 00:34:29,328 --> 00:34:29,688 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 638 00:34:30,193 --> 00:34:30,863 Sagi Brody: exactly. 639 00:34:31,028 --> 00:34:33,558 W. Curtis Preston: I want, I wanna ask you Sagi, um, you 640 00:34:33,558 --> 00:34:35,518 know, you're, you're a Veeam msp. 641 00:34:35,523 --> 00:34:41,148 We, we've talked to Veeam a couple times on the podcast and, you know, 642 00:34:41,148 --> 00:34:44,218 I've often wondered, what does a service provider look like for Veeam? 643 00:34:44,218 --> 00:34:48,628 And you're actually the first one that, that, that we've actually talked to. 644 00:34:49,168 --> 00:34:50,578 I'm, I'm curious to know. 645 00:34:51,358 --> 00:34:54,928 Obviously, you know, the value of security in a data protection environment. 646 00:34:55,348 --> 00:34:59,548 What is your, how, you know, you don't have to give away secret 647 00:34:59,548 --> 00:35:04,198 sauce, but, but how do you think is the proper way to configure Veeam? 648 00:35:04,468 --> 00:35:09,328 That's secure and, and also, If you're gonna do DR. 649 00:35:09,508 --> 00:35:14,548 Right, um, you know, if you're gonna do DR as a service for somebody, 650 00:35:14,908 --> 00:35:16,808 how would you be configuring Veeam. 651 00:35:17,958 --> 00:35:19,983 Sagi Brody: Um, well, I mean that's, that's, you know, 652 00:35:20,013 --> 00:35:21,003 part of our bread and butter. 653 00:35:21,003 --> 00:35:21,903 Absolutely. 654 00:35:22,203 --> 00:35:25,023 Um, you know, Veeam is, is a software and we're, we're 655 00:35:25,083 --> 00:35:26,613 wrapping our services around it. 656 00:35:26,673 --> 00:35:28,143 Uh, you know, managing. 657 00:35:28,143 --> 00:35:29,553 Monitoring, securing and scaling. 658 00:35:29,943 --> 00:35:32,043 Veeam is not the only data mover that we support. 659 00:35:32,073 --> 00:35:36,153 Um, we support, um, Zerto and, and Itera and a few others. 660 00:35:36,153 --> 00:35:39,453 Again, it's all, you know, what's, what's the use case and what's the best tool 661 00:35:39,458 --> 00:35:41,343 in our, in our tool, tool bag for it. 662 00:35:41,733 --> 00:35:44,043 Um, but you know, there, there's definitely some best 663 00:35:44,043 --> 00:35:45,753 practices technically around it. 664 00:35:45,783 --> 00:35:50,343 What I mentioned before, you know, around, don't tie it into your production AD. 665 00:35:50,493 --> 00:35:53,883 I mean, that's probably the best thing you could do, I would say. 666 00:35:54,243 --> 00:35:55,383 I mean, they support 667 00:35:55,523 --> 00:35:55,943 amu. 668 00:35:56,178 --> 00:35:56,418 W. Curtis Preston: man. 669 00:35:57,013 --> 00:35:58,723 Sagi Brody: Yeah, I mean, they support immutability now. 670 00:35:58,723 --> 00:36:00,343 They support hardened repos. 671 00:36:00,403 --> 00:36:02,983 Um, obviously those are part of best practices. 672 00:36:02,983 --> 00:36:07,303 I would just say like, like I said before, just really acknowledge 673 00:36:07,393 --> 00:36:08,623 what business you want to be in. 674 00:36:08,623 --> 00:36:13,033 If, if, if you are a backups administrator and you want to take 675 00:36:13,033 --> 00:36:15,883 this challenge and own it, then great. 676 00:36:15,883 --> 00:36:17,683 I mean, there's tons of good resources out there. 677 00:36:17,683 --> 00:36:20,473 In fact, I've done webinars about, you know, with, with Veeam around 678 00:36:20,473 --> 00:36:21,703 what, what are the best practices. 679 00:36:22,688 --> 00:36:26,443 . Um, we also are selling this observer tool as a standalone. 680 00:36:26,533 --> 00:36:30,643 You know, you can just, you can just layer it on top of your Veeam infrastructure to, 681 00:36:30,913 --> 00:36:34,273 to alert you of these suspicious actions. 682 00:36:34,273 --> 00:36:37,273 You don't necessarily have to use us for offsite backups or DR. 683 00:36:37,573 --> 00:36:39,493 And so that's a nice middle ground, Right. 684 00:36:39,853 --> 00:36:42,883 Um, especially because we're doing a lot more with aws. 685 00:36:42,883 --> 00:36:46,003 So, you know, we want to be able to provide these managed services 686 00:36:46,003 --> 00:36:48,793 without forcing our customers to use any specific target. 687 00:36:49,493 --> 00:36:51,568 W. Curtis Preston: Right with, with Veeam. 688 00:36:51,898 --> 00:36:55,658 So I, you know, I know they supported immutability to like s3 object lock. 689 00:36:55,658 --> 00:37:00,618 If you're gonna do dr, though, you, you want that to be on on block, right? 690 00:37:00,678 --> 00:37:01,968 If you're gonna do DR from it. 691 00:37:02,163 --> 00:37:05,013 Sagi Brody: Yeah, So Veeam supports immutability with object. 692 00:37:05,013 --> 00:37:08,343 They also support immutability with their local backup servers. 693 00:37:08,343 --> 00:37:11,278 One of the great things and one of the horrible things about Veeam is 694 00:37:11,278 --> 00:37:13,078 that there's so many components. 695 00:37:13,138 --> 00:37:16,798 Um, if you're a, if you're a big shop, it's good because you can 696 00:37:16,798 --> 00:37:19,028 scale those components individually. 697 00:37:19,698 --> 00:37:22,573 Um, if you would just want the easy button, you can run 698 00:37:22,573 --> 00:37:24,103 it all on one server too. 699 00:37:24,433 --> 00:37:29,563 Um, but I think, I think understanding what bucket you fall, fall into 700 00:37:29,563 --> 00:37:31,513 and find, maybe finding the right information with the right time 701 00:37:31,513 --> 00:37:34,393 might not be the easiest thing when there's so many different variations. 702 00:37:34,453 --> 00:37:37,393 Um, but yeah, you can run immutability locally. 703 00:37:37,398 --> 00:37:37,753 Yes. 704 00:37:38,023 --> 00:37:42,313 When we, when we provide disaster recovery as a service and for anyone who's doing it 705 00:37:42,343 --> 00:37:47,053 on their own in house, you're replicating to production ready infrastructure. 706 00:37:47,383 --> 00:37:50,743 And so it's, it's typically an all flash or a hybrid array. 707 00:37:51,073 --> 00:37:55,303 Um, you know, the VMDK is essentially sitting there 708 00:37:56,463 --> 00:37:58,093 registered, ready to be booted up. 709 00:37:58,098 --> 00:38:01,693 And our customers, you know, there's no, there's no sort of, 710 00:38:01,753 --> 00:38:04,033 um, transformation of the data. 711 00:38:04,033 --> 00:38:05,833 It's, it's immediately available. 712 00:38:06,493 --> 00:38:10,723 But that's also what makes it susceptible to, to what I was saying before, is 713 00:38:10,963 --> 00:38:15,463 if the tool is constantly replicating, And somebody gets into the tool. 714 00:38:15,823 --> 00:38:18,643 Um, and this is not just Veeam, it's, it's, it's the same with 715 00:38:18,643 --> 00:38:20,653 Commvault and Rubric, and even Zerto. 716 00:38:20,778 --> 00:38:23,473 Someone gets in that tool, they can hit a button and say, Hey, let's, 717 00:38:23,683 --> 00:38:27,283 let me delete all the data at the remote rep replica, like instantly. 718 00:38:29,128 --> 00:38:31,648 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, it's a concern that I have. 719 00:38:31,698 --> 00:38:34,798 And I'm sure you're aware of the, the news where we've seen of the 720 00:38:34,798 --> 00:38:39,298 ransomware folks directly attacking different, uh, backup vendors. 721 00:38:39,898 --> 00:38:44,603 I guess I'm wondering if there's any way to, to get around that. 722 00:38:45,308 --> 00:38:48,008 Sagi Brody: Well, I think, I think using a service provider like, 723 00:38:48,068 --> 00:38:49,928 like us is good because now you. 724 00:38:50,813 --> 00:38:54,413 You have the separation of data, data, plane and control plane. 725 00:38:54,773 --> 00:38:59,213 Um, you have this firewall, you know, in a way between the customer's infrastructure 726 00:38:59,218 --> 00:39:02,333 that's tied to their authentication and the recovery environment. 727 00:39:02,603 --> 00:39:05,843 You also, like, as you were saying before, the, the beauty of the cloud is, you know, 728 00:39:05,843 --> 00:39:09,563 all the spin up and spin down if we're doing disaster recovery as a service. 729 00:39:10,373 --> 00:39:14,033 We're not talking to customers about how many, how much CPU of memory they need. 730 00:39:14,033 --> 00:39:17,543 We basically give 'em an SLA that their applications will perform just 731 00:39:17,543 --> 00:39:19,523 as good or better than production. 732 00:39:19,733 --> 00:39:21,553 There's no cost for the CPU or memory. 733 00:39:21,553 --> 00:39:23,273 We manage all that on the back end. 734 00:39:23,573 --> 00:39:26,963 And, um, you know, we're, we're managing the replication, we're 735 00:39:26,963 --> 00:39:30,143 monitoring it, we're owning the failover fail back testing, all that stuff. 736 00:39:30,143 --> 00:39:32,213 So it makes it very simple for them. 737 00:39:32,933 --> 00:39:35,243 And as you know, there's, you know, a gazillion other things. 738 00:39:35,708 --> 00:39:38,528 All these IT folks need to manage these days, especially with security 739 00:39:38,528 --> 00:39:39,578 so they can kind of move on. 740 00:39:39,578 --> 00:39:43,208 But I do really think that when people think about security, they're 741 00:39:43,208 --> 00:39:45,038 missing the whole DR component. 742 00:39:45,728 --> 00:39:51,188 Um, people also need an isolated recovery environment to, to, you 743 00:39:51,188 --> 00:39:56,888 know, like if you look at the Colonial Pipeline hack, um, it's, it's, it's 744 00:39:56,888 --> 00:39:59,258 not that they were down so long cuz they didn't have backups, you know, 745 00:39:59,258 --> 00:40:01,938 they had a full copy of all their data. 746 00:40:02,278 --> 00:40:05,378 The question though is where do they bring that back up from? 747 00:40:05,858 --> 00:40:09,218 Um, and you're not gonna, you don't wanna override your production environment. 748 00:40:09,218 --> 00:40:12,188 You need to do forensics and see how they got in and what happened. 749 00:40:12,668 --> 00:40:16,958 Um, and so a, a true disaster recovery environment, one where you can kind 750 00:40:16,958 --> 00:40:21,218 of boot off multiple snapshots, gives you the ability to have an 751 00:40:21,218 --> 00:40:24,248 isolated recovery environment to bring up the app in a way that it's not 752 00:40:24,248 --> 00:40:25,868 gonna, in fact, back to production. 753 00:40:26,138 --> 00:40:30,178 And also to bring up a recent copy to, to perform forensics. 754 00:40:30,803 --> 00:40:33,953 And a lot of people kind of throw backups and DR. 755 00:40:33,953 --> 00:40:34,703 In the same bucket. 756 00:40:34,703 --> 00:40:35,663 It's the same thing. 757 00:40:35,903 --> 00:40:37,133 And to your point, no. 758 00:40:37,733 --> 00:40:38,723 Two separate services. 759 00:40:38,723 --> 00:40:40,373 Two separate use cases, two separate goals. 760 00:40:40,673 --> 00:40:44,183 When we sell backups, it's landing on cheap and deep storage. 761 00:40:44,513 --> 00:40:47,723 When we provide disaster recovery, it's it's expensive 762 00:40:47,723 --> 00:40:49,463 performance storage, ready to go. 763 00:40:50,648 --> 00:40:52,113 W. Curtis Preston: Right, right. 764 00:40:52,568 --> 00:40:55,298 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Uh, I, I remember just going back and thinking Curtis 765 00:40:55,298 --> 00:41:00,458 to the talk with Tony Mendoza about Spectralogic and sort of the pain they 766 00:41:00,458 --> 00:41:04,619 went through to recover from ransomware and how, just like identifying the 767 00:41:04,624 --> 00:41:08,708 systems that they can boot from and trying to find like what is a known 768 00:41:08,708 --> 00:41:10,658 good copy they could roll back to Right. 769 00:41:11,048 --> 00:41:13,508 Took 'em days in order to just even figure that. 770 00:41:14,468 --> 00:41:15,818 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, their biggest challenge was just 771 00:41:15,818 --> 00:41:17,228 figuring out what was infected. 772 00:41:17,498 --> 00:41:17,768 Right. 773 00:41:17,838 --> 00:41:19,298 What, what servers were infected. 774 00:41:19,298 --> 00:41:20,678 So they did this, like what one? 775 00:41:20,948 --> 00:41:21,908 I think that's what he said, right? 776 00:41:21,908 --> 00:41:25,148 Where they shut everything down and then they brought everything up like one 777 00:41:25,153 --> 00:41:29,168 server at a time to see if it was infected before they, Before they moved on. 778 00:41:30,193 --> 00:41:31,903 Sagi Brody: Yeah, and that's a really good point. 779 00:41:31,903 --> 00:41:33,193 That's half the battle, right? 780 00:41:33,193 --> 00:41:34,453 So, and that's part of another reason. 781 00:41:34,813 --> 00:41:38,503 Kind of when we built Observer, we kind of built it to, to give you 782 00:41:38,503 --> 00:41:42,433 that, some of that information and all that, but that's, it's a challenge. 783 00:41:42,523 --> 00:41:45,193 These are the things that people never think about until 784 00:41:45,253 --> 00:41:46,333 unfortunately something bad. 785 00:41:46,333 --> 00:41:46,813 Prasanna Malaiyandi: happens 786 00:41:47,853 --> 00:41:47,963 Yep. 787 00:41:47,963 --> 00:41:52,253 W. Curtis Preston: That's why we have people like you and Prasanna and me 788 00:41:52,973 --> 00:41:57,713 Sagi, because we just, we just try to get 'em to think about that sort of stuff. 789 00:41:57,713 --> 00:41:58,593 That is the whole purpose. 790 00:41:59,168 --> 00:42:00,188 Of this podcast. 791 00:42:00,188 --> 00:42:02,828 Well, I think it's been a great, great discussion. 792 00:42:03,128 --> 00:42:04,778 Uh, thanks for, thanks for coming on 793 00:42:05,588 --> 00:42:06,588 Sagi Brody: Thanks for having me. 794 00:42:07,088 --> 00:42:10,898 W. Curtis Preston: and, uh, Prasanna, you know, as always, and I'll continue 795 00:42:10,898 --> 00:42:12,998 to keep you updated on my floor progress. 796 00:42:13,838 --> 00:42:14,078 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Good. 797 00:42:14,078 --> 00:42:15,698 I wanna see finished pictures soon. 798 00:42:15,758 --> 00:42:16,238 Tomorrow. 799 00:42:16,268 --> 00:42:16,778 Tomorrow. 800 00:42:18,068 --> 00:42:19,028 W. Curtis Preston: I'll see what I can do. 801 00:42:19,418 --> 00:42:20,348 I'll see what I can do. 802 00:42:20,828 --> 00:42:23,018 All right, and, uh, thanks again to the listeners. 803 00:42:23,708 --> 00:42:27,098 Remember to subscribe so that you can restore it all.