Ever wondered why some people find it easy to stick to new habits,

and for others it feels impossible.

I'm joined by productivity coach Haley Watts to explore the psychology of habits

and uncover the small changes that can make a big difference in this episode.

Of Architecture Business Club, the weekly podcast for small firm

founders who want to build their dream business in architecture and

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That's JO n@architecturebusinessclub.com.

Now let's learn how you can create good habits for more success.

Haley Watts is a productivity and habits coach and trainer.

She helps people who are juggling too much to get clear on their

priorities, reduce their stress, and help them grow their businesses.

She's been delivering training around productivity on people management for

the last 10 years and now helps people who are running their own businesses

to get focused to connect with Haley.

Head over to LinkedIn via the link in the show notes.

Hay, welcome to Architecture Business

Hi there.

Welcome.

Thank you for having me.

You're very welcome.

It is great to have you here.

Haley, what, what do you get up to in your free time?

Do you have any hobbies or interests outside of the productivity

work that you've been doing?

I do.

I love to get deeply engrossed in a good novel.

Um, and my son has set me a challenge this year to see if I

can read a hundred books in a year.

Um, so that's quite an undertaking, but it gives me a good excuse,

right, to sit and read.

Absolutely.

and, and to balance that kind of sitting around and reading.

I'm also learning to ice skate, um, which yeah, it's quite nerve wracking

in your forties to learn to ice skate.

I'm very worried about injuring myself, but I'm making

progress and I'm enjoying it.

So that's the main thing, right?

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Do you have any, um, favorite genres of novels?

Oh, I've recently been getting into a bit of historical

fiction, um, so I'm quite enjoying some of that 'cause I never really paid

attention to history in school and learn.

Learning about it as a story kind of brings it to life a bit more,

so I'm really enjoying that.

Um, but I've also relatively recently been introduced to fantasy

through my book club, so yeah.

That's cool as well.

Just reading something a bit different to what I might otherwise have picked up.

I love that when you discover something new like that and then it

sort of opens up this whole different world that you didn't know about.

Uh, my, I find that with music, my big, I love to read, but

music's one of my big interests.

But my daughter, she's an avid reader.

She gets through a ridiculous number of books.

It's unbelievable.

you're here to talk about creating good habits which can help lead

to more success in business.

So I'm really excited to, to have this conversation.

Forming new habits can be hard for many people, though.

I wondered why you think that some people may be a better at, uh, forming

and sticking with habits than others.

They definitely are.

Um, and I'm one of the people that's probably not very good at it, which got

me interested in this, um, area of habits.

Um, Gretchen Rubin's book, the Four Tendencies, she introduces this

idea that there are four different personality types in relation to habits.

Um, and she talks about the rebels.

The people who don't like creating new habits don't like being told what to do.

Um.

She talks about the questioners, the people who don't want to do something

or take action unless they're really brought into the idea and connect,

get all their questions answered.

And I've, I know friends who are really good at exercising,

really good at eating healthily.

And it's often because they've done the research, they've understood,

they've had a lot of questions about, well, why should I eat, I

dunno, green vegetables every day.

And they've gone away and researched it and learned about it.

And what they've learned has motivated them.

So they're the questioners.

Then there's me.

I'm an obliger.

For me, if I've got some external accountability, like if I said to you,

John, I'm gonna go and I don't know, swim every day for the next week.

If I knew that you might ask me about it, or even that you were thinking

I was doing that, that's more likely to motivate me than me just going,

I know that's good for my health.

uh, so I'm, I'm an obliger.

If, if it's for somebody else, I'm more likely to do it.

So I know that, so I can make that accountability external.

And then the other category of people who are the, um, upholders and they're

really good at following the rules and instructions, and they're good at

saying no when they can't do something.

But if they do commit to doing something, it's gonna happen.

And, and they're the ones who are wondering, like, why, why

do other people not do it?

It's a bit of a mystery.

Um, um, those things are fluid, right?

There might be times where you move from one to the other, but an upholder is not

likely to start behaving like a rebel.

Um.

Me as an obliger, there might be times where I'm a bit more like a

questioner or like a, um, a rebel.

So we kind of move around depending on the different factors and different things.

But I, I love Gretchen's book.

It's fascinating.

It really got me thinking about, yeah, why some people are good at this and

why some people like me really struggle.

Oh, I love that.

I'm gonna have to Google that book and check that out.

I definitely would like to read a bit more about that.

I think I'm probably quite like you Haley, with my habits.

Yeah, I think if I have some external accountability that's

definitely helped me before.

Something as well, actually setting a, a date that has worked

when I've actually picked a date and set a date for something.

And I I do rely quite a lot on, um, like a diary and a

calendar to help me plan things.

Which leads me on, actually to a question I wanted to ask you about the different

ways that you've noticed, um, people using their diaries in relation to this.

and I think it's really common, I think for people

to put into their calendar, oh, I'm gonna do that thing on this date.

I'll do it then.

And that works, I think, as a technique when you use it sparingly.

But I think when you use it for everything, 'cause there's

nowhere else to put the stuff.

Your calendar becomes really overcrowded and, and what you have

a tendency to do is say, well, this thing isn't a priority today or even

this week, so I'll put it into my calendar in three or four weeks time.

And then that three or four weeks time rolls around and you just dismiss

everything that comes up in the calendar, because that's not priority today either.

I do a lot of work with people around managing high workloads.

And I think when people are putting things in their calendar for everything,

it tends to feel overwhelming and people stop engaging with it.

Now there will be exceptions, of course, there's always exceptions.

What I find tends to work better for people is if you know that you are

a morning person or you know you do your best work in the middle of the

afternoon, like whenever your, your zone is to be able to concentrate

and focus, if you can block out some concentrating and focusing time.

And then decide near the time what the priority is.

I find that tends to work better for people rather than just

putting everything in the calendar.

Oh, I like that.

Yeah.

I've done that classic thing of putting items on my calendar and

then they've just got moved, like,

and then the next week the task is still there.

'cause it's that thing of, oh, well that doesn't feel like the priority today,

so I'll just keep sliding it back.

And there has been some occasions when there's been some tasks that for weeks

and weeks and weeks have just got.

Pushed along into the following week.

So that's something that I would definitely like to

work on, uh, improving for

Yeah, and there's loads of tools and technology

that's out there that that helps us to organize our workload better.

Um, like equally pen and paper and spreadsheets, they work fine too.

It's just a case of finding something that you enjoy using,

uh, and, and sticking with it.

And I think everybody uses a calendar.

Everybody knows how they work, so that feels like an easy thing to use.

And if you've got a workload that is quite repetitive and

predictable, um, maybe that works.

You know, if your role is to send out invoices and respond to emails

and you aren't working on anything more strategic or anything that has.

Um, unexpected, you know, queries from clients that might

take up quite a lot of time.

Then it might work in those kind of more administrative type jobs.

Um, but I think for people who are running their own businesses,

there's probably a bit more going on.

And, like you say, you're gonna kind of end up bumping it and, and

looking to do Yeah, just pushing it, which feels a bit demotivating.

Hmm, absolutely.

Small business owners are wearing so many hats usually.

Interesting you mentioned there about, um.

Analog as well, sort of notepad and diaries, that sort of thing.

That's something that I started doing last year actually, was using a, a

bullet journal in addition to like an online calendar, that sort of thing.

So mine approach is a little bit of a combination now, sort of

part analog, part digital, um, but it's still a work in progress.

Yeah, I think, I think that's the best approach.

It's about doing something that works for you.

Yeah.

There's all these fancy apps out there and you know, someone messaged

me a few days ago say, oh, I found a great AI tool to do this.

But the problem with that is they said, well, I've been using it.

I was like, yeah, but do you feel any better or do you still

feel stressed and overwhelmed?

They're like, oh yeah, it still feels really stressful.

'cause they don't really know what's in there because they're, uh, you

know, the AI has done it for them.

Um, so yeah, using a bit of both is good.

I, I tend to use an electronic tool for my, kind of all the things

I need to do and think about.

But then I, each morning I will pull out from that tool,

what am I gonna work on today?

And that goes on a post-it note.

So I don't look at all the other stuff that needs doing.

I just look at the top three things and I give myself three things.

'cause I wanna leave a bit of capacity in the day to deal with the unexpected or,

um, the, the proactive things that I want to do each week, that are each day that

are different to the more movable tasks.

So, yeah, that helps me to just have my top three for the

day on a, on a post-it note.

Oh, I love that.

That's very analog, the old school post-it note.

But I, I love that for the, being able to just focus on that.

Um, that leads nicely onto my next question actually, Haley, which is, how

do you recommend we create a new habit?

I.

yeah.

Great question.

So I've done a lot of reading around habits and I've worked

with a lot of people around how to formulate ones that work for them.

So I think, yeah, the first thing is deciding what is

the new habit going to be.

The second thing is how do we make it really small?

So in BJ Fog's book, tiny Habits, he talks about the importance

of making a habit really small.

So we started off our conversation with me getting all excited about,

oh, I love reading and novels, but are not so good at reading the nonfiction

books, the self-development, the business books, that kind of stuff.

I find there's a bit tougher going 'cause your attention span

needs to be a bit better, right?

So my tiny habit was, well, I'm gonna read at least a page a day.

I don't think there've been any days where I've only read a page, but if

I pick up the book with the intention of I'm just gonna read a page, I'll

get into it by that, by that time.

And if I only read a page, that's fine.

I've met my goal.

So it's making it small and then pairing it with something that you do already.

So it's called habit stacking, where you pair pair it up.

So.

When I turn on my bedroom light in the morning, that's when I

pick my book up to read at least a page of my nonfiction book.

So, because I'm pairing it with something that I do already,

it makes it easier to do.

And then when I've done that, I give myself a little, you know,

congratulations, a little moment of recognition that I've done this

thing and instilled this new habit.

And that can help us to want to keep going with the habit.

So, yeah, making it small and pairing it up with something that you do

already and just recognizing that you've achieved something and you've done it.

I like that it's, um, celebrating that little win.

And, um, often I think we try and do something new.

We, we try and do too much.

Um, so I love the idea of, of just making it something really small

then, and celebrating that afterwards.

It's a great, great

Yeah, and sometimes we can try and do too many new things at once.

So like if you're moving house or create starting a new job, then maybe

that isn't a, a good opportunity to change a few things at at once.

But if it's just day to day, then may be kind of doing those in slow

increments and just visualizing.

Okay, well I'm gonna read, when I turn the light on in the morning, I'm just picture

yourself in your head, like turning on the light, picking up the book, turning on

the light, picking up the book so you're kind of rehearsing it in your head so

you remember to do it at the right time.

Mm. And that way then we're less likely to, to get

overwhelmed with all of the things that we've we've got going on.

What do you think causes people to feel overwhelmed by their to-do lists?

I.

Very often when I start working PE with people on organizing

their workload, people say, well, I have got a to-do list, and then they'll pull

out a scrappy piece of paper from the bottom of their back and a notebook.

There's an app that they started using and they've put a flag on some emails as well.

And there are so many different lists in so many different places that feels

overwhelming before you even get started.

So the first thing would be having everything in one place, whether that's

an electronic tool or bullet journal or you know, whatever it might be.

It's choosing a tool

and, and.

Really committing to spend, just spend a little, you know, you do need to spend

a little bit of time setting something up, but it's well worth it in the end.

And that's something that I help people with is setting up a tool.

Um, I do that with teams of people, whether they do it together as a

group, um, or with individuals if they're running their own business or

if they're senior executives in firms.

So.

Yeah, I think that sense of feeling overwhelmed by the to-do list

comes from not having one place to go to, to decide what to do next.

So I think that that helps, and then being able to break it down

and section it in different ways.

So, you know, if you, if you've got a list of like, that's just

massive, it goes on forever.

It doesn't feel good.

So being really clear on what your priorities are for the week is helpful.

I also have, um, within my, my list, I kind of categorize some

of those tasks depending on where I'm going to be when I do them.

I deliver quite a lot of management and productivity training.

So I spend a bit of time on trains.

I have a list of things that I can do.

It doesn't matter where I am.

Usually kind of fairly quick and easy type things.

So if I'm on the train or if I arrive somewhere early for a meeting, I can say,

you know, I can pull up those quick tasks that does, you know, I can do anywhere.

So I might categorize things based on where I am or, or even what mood I'm in.

You know, maybe I'm in the mood to just do something, you know, I could do something

creative or decision making or thinking.

There might be other times of the day where my brain is more suited

to, uh, doing some really easy admin tasks that don't require all of my

brain cells to be working so well.

So

Part of that is, having self-awareness of your own energy levels and you

know, so those internal factors.

And then externally thinking about your movements, where you're going

to be, whether you're at your desk, whether you've got time on

the train or whether for a meeting to begin or that sort of thing.

Yeah, that's a really interesting way to think about categorizing and breaking

down that big, overwhelming to-do

And you know, if somebody writes something on their website, oh,

sorry, writes something on their to-do list and they put website like that,

that might be quite a big job to update some, you know, a business website.

But if, if somebody writes on their to-do list, read the text on the

homepage and decide what I want to change, that feels a bit easier.

Bit easier.

So breaking it down into what's next rather than the overall massive

big task that needs to be done.

Like what are you gonna do to just kind of be nudging that thing forward?

Mm. I think there's sometimes there's some confusion between tasks

and projects that actually something like, oh, that task to redo the website.

That's actually a really big project.

Potentially even a simple website.

There is a huge list of individual tasks, tasks to work through to complete that.

But we would, we just, oh.

Complete website one task.

and, and I, I guess with a lot of these tasks, it's like, you know,

writing complete website or do marketing or social media, they're never done.

There's always more that you can do.

So what is it that you want to achieve from doing those things?

Hmm

so reminding ourselves of the goal can be helpful as well.

I love that.

So how do we decide?

What thing?

So what task or activity?

How do we decide which one of those to work on next?

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Now, back to the show.

So I think it's about thinking about our energy levels.

So if I've not slept very well and I'm feeling a bit groggy, a bit under the

weather, then I might just go to my list and pull off some easy things to do.

But if I'm, you know, I'm on it and I'm feeling good, I can look at my list and

say, right, these are my top priorities, these are the, the what's next actions

that are gonna move that forward.

I'm gonna do that.

I try and get the things done that are top priority first.

'cause then I feel like, you know, I'm achieving something.

Does that help?

Is that what you do?

Yeah.

That, no, that, that definitely does help.

Yeah.

I think the way that I approach it is I have sort of changed my approach and

experimented quite a bit with this.

But the way that I've been doing it more recently.

I did some self-reflection on my energy levels throughout the

day, and then I try to match.

obviously there's some things that have set deadlines, but then there's a lot

of other tasks that are just ongoing things, and some of those I find easier

to do, uh, and, and others harder.

So have some times throughout the day where I'll say, well, any, not

necessarily more difficult, but anything that demands more of my energy, more

of my attention, that I need to be kind of on it to do that kind of deep

thinking, creative work, strategic work.

I'll try and do that in the same part of the day when I know that

my energy levels are higher.

And then anything else that I can do more easily, like.

Admin, bookkeeping checking, re replying to emails, that sort of thing.

That can be kind of at the time of day when my energy levels are lower

and I'm kind of feeling tireder.

What I have found as well is that whilst meetings, like video calls, meetings and,

and even podcast interviews in the main, I, I enjoy particular podcast interviews.

I really enjoy doing them.

I do.

Often find any kind of thing that involves a video call.

I do find it tiring.

But equally it's also kind of energizing in some way.

So it, it is strange that like initially I would try and schedule

those for that part of the day where I would do the kind of the deep

work, if you want to call it that.

But what I realized is that actually.

I can actually do it at the other time of day and actually there's something

about it, maybe it's, um, a little bit of adrenaline before we hit record, that

it kind of gives me an energy boost and I am able to do those calls and meetings

and recordings at a time of day when I would normally be feeling less energetic.

So I've realized that that was a little hack for me to be able to

squeeze more productivity out of my

Yeah.

I think of them as energizer tasks, like what's gonna energize me.

Um, for me, probably around 3, 3 30 in the afternoon, my energy levels dip.

So that's a good time to pull out an Energizer task or even to just take a

break, get outside, move around, even if it's just for a couple of minutes.

Uh, that makes a big difference.

People often say to me, like, how do I get my energy levels

to be really good all day?

It's like, well, you're not a robot, so then they're not gonna be like that.

Um, you'll have peaks and troughs and it's about.

You know, what you just described is a perfect description of how

to embrace those kind of peaks and troughs in our day by just kind of

matching the tasks of where we're at.

Yeah, Yeah, it's definitely, definitely been

working for me, uh, a lot better.

I think as well, just managing expectations of what is

reasonable to achieve in a day.

I think that you mentioned there like not being a robot.

That none of us are ever gonna work at a hundred percent productivity

and actually for the average small business owner that your, your

productivity levels will typically be lower than a regular employee because

you're juggling so many other things.

That's my experience of it anyway.

But I, I wrestled with that for a long time.

Thinking that I would be able to get far more what I would call

productive work done in a day.

And it's only in recent years after a lot of self-reflection and, and learning a bit

more about productivity that I've realized actually I was not being realistic at all.

Yeah.

So it's, um,

And often business owners will say, oh, but the

thing is I love my job and my business, I find it all energizing.

And it's like, well, that's great, but you can only sustain that

level of throwing more hours at it for a certain period of time.

Because there will come a point where you then you do get

burnt out, you do get tired.

And when, when that starts to happen, you start to make less

good decisions that aren't in the best interest of your business.

So I love that you started off asking today about like

interests outside of work.

Like we need to make sure as people running our own businesses, that we

have those, um, and that we are doing something that's, that's not work,

because that helps us to recharge rather than just go on standby.

Yeah.

So we've talked, um, a little bit about planning for the week and

our, our sort of approaches to that.

I. Maybe we could dig into that a little bit more because, I mean, planning can

be a little bit boring for some people.

They maybe struggle with that.

So how, how can we make ourselves do it, do that planning that's

necessary for us to get the things done that we want to get done.

Yeah, for me, minimum bit of planning for the week is to look ahead

at what I've got coming up in the next three weeks and identify is there anything

I need to do to, to plan for that.

Um, I have a virtual assistant who helps me in my business, so like,

what do I need to delegate to her?

Um, but also look back a, a week, you know, what did I do last week?

What conversations or meetings did I have?

Have I captured the actions from those or, or have I done them?

Uh, so I, I think this is something a lot of people find very difficult.

'cause it means when you're doing the planning, you're

not actually doing the work.

And that feels counterintuitive.

So on a Monday morning, I run, um, a group called Organize and Thrive.

And the idea of that is, it's a very brief kind of mini planning

session, but everybody will do sort of the minimum to get them

organized and focused for the week.

And I experimented with it in September last year, uh, where I just said

to people in my network, come for free, let's test it for a month.

And I had some amazing feedback.

Like people literally said, this changed my life.

This was the difference between it feeling.

It's overwhelming and too much to me, feeling in control.

So we start at 10, past nine, we're finished by five to 10.

Um, and I just take people through some of the questions the same each week.

'cause you know, that's three weeks ahead, one week back.

Um, that's really important.

Get people to think about their priorities, what they're gonna

do, what they're not gonna do.

And then there are some different questions that I throw in each week.

They might be about wellbeing.

Um, they might be about our priorities and how do we reframe

perhaps some of the things that people have been struggling with.

Uh, so particularly for us, obliges, you know, I mentioned the obliger thing

earlier, knowing that they're coming onto a call and they're gonna have somebody

talk them through what they need to do.

That's a commitment that they're making and that gives them that accountability.

And I think it's a bit more fun 'cause people get to know each other

a little bit in that group as well.

So, um, I think that helps.

I think the other thing that can help is just having a reward.

Um, sometimes I do my weekly planning.

I have a list I call the sorting my Life out checklist, which I can

send you a link to that if it's helpful for people who are listening.

Um, sometimes I might go to a coffee shop and work my way through that and

just do it in a different environment.

Somewhere where I'm not gonna be distracted is important just to

have that uninterrupted time and I always feel lighter afterwards.

It's that remembering it will feel better when I've done it, even if

starting it doesn't feel great.

Yeah.

I love that.

I'm, I'm a big fan of.

Going to a different environment, particularly like a local coffee shop.

I find that there'll be some days when I'll be trying to work on

something and it will feel like I'm trying to wade through treacle.

I'm really struggling with it, but that quick change of environment, the task

that I may have been struggling on, I get done in a fraction of the time in

a different environment, or to have the opportunity to do the planning.

To then be able to then come back to my desk and then get the work done,

knowing with confidence that I'm working on the right things because

I've taken some time out of my day to do the planning work somewhere else.

I. And your Monday morning group, that sounds absolutely fantastic.

Organize and thrive.

So, um, there'll be a link in the show notes to to your website so that, uh,

listeners, you'll be able to go and find that if you're listening now.

I think that sounds good.

Just go and check out the link and, uh, go and give it a try.

Haley, this has been awesome.

Really enjoyed this.

What would be the main thing that you'd like everyone to take

away from this conversation?

Oh, lovely question.

I think if you know that external accountability is something that

helps you with developing new habits, then think about where you

may, you may be able to get some of that external accountability from.

I mean, there's lots of groups and communities that business

owners might join, but it might just be buddying up with.

Uh, a friend to say, me, this is my accountability thing.

What are you gonna do next week?

Um, and I think that habit stacking, I'm really giving a bit

of thought to what, what are the new habits that you want to create?

You mentioned earlier the importance of reflecting and just spending

a bit of time thinking actually, what's going to move the dial for me?

What's gonna help me get to the next level?

And then prioritizing that.

'cause it's really hard in the day-to-day and all those different things that

we're responsible for as business owners to focus on those top priorities.

Uh, so yeah, carving out some time to be proactive rather than reactive.

Sorry, you said one thing and I've given you several.

Oh, that's all right.

We're all for some, some bonus, uh, tips and, uh, value in there.

That's awesome.

Was there anything else that you wanted to say about habits and productivity

that we haven't already covered?

No, I don't think so.

I just think if, if this is something that people are

struggling with, like that's normal.

Lots of people struggle with this.

It's not something we're taught how to do at school.

Uh, it's something we find out and, and learn the hard way.

Um, so, you know, my goal is to help make it easier for people.

But if you are struggling, if you are feeling overwhelmed,

there are things that you can do.

It doesn't have to be this way.

People often discover that through getting stressed and feeling burnt out.

Um, we don't want you to get to that point.

Oh, thank you, Hailey.

I have a question that I wanna ask you.

It's, it's nothing related to our topic, but I like to ask

all of the guests on the show.

I love to travel and to discover new places.

I was just wondering if you could share one of your favorite places

and what you love about it.

And it can be somewhere near or far.

Oh, wonderful question.

There are several places that come up, um, but.

Barcelona is one of my favorite places.

I really like Ga Park, uh, which is the anti Anthony Gowdy kind of park.

I like the fact that it's an open space and really kind of

brings art and nature together.

Um, I've been there a couple of times and I always find it really

peaceful and, you know, all those mosaics sort of bright and colorful.

So yeah, I really enjoy that.

And the weather's usually nice too.

Yeah, Barcelona, fantastic place.

Um, I went there.

Probably, oh, it must be over 20 years ago now.

Um, it, my backpacking days, many years ago and I, I do recall seeing some

culture, uh, while I was there, you know, doing some cultural things, visiting some

interesting buildings, but also there was a lot of alcohol involved at the time.

Um, yeah, it was one of those sort of trips away.

Um, but it was a lot of fun and I always thought, yeah, I'd

love to go back there one day.

Oh yeah, I've, I, I went for a university field

trip, so that was a long time ago.

Um, and then went with some friends a few years later.

Um, there was a lot of sangria involved and just, just such beautiful places.

I, yeah, I love it.

Awesome.

Haddy, thank you so much for being a guest on the show.

Um, really appreciate you coming and sharing your expertise.

Could you just remind everybody where they can find you online?

Yeah, so my website is inspire.co uk and I'm on LinkedIn.

I'm pretty easy to find.

I'll be wearing purple in my profile picture.

Uh, so yeah, it'd be great to connect on LinkedIn.

Love to hear any questions, uh, that people have and yeah, connect

with people and, and hear a bit more about what they're working on.

Awesome.

I'll make sure that those links go in the show notes.

Thanks again, Haley.

Thank you.

Next time I explore how you can stay positive about your

business, even when you're feeling down.

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Running your architecture business.

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This is architecture business club.