1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,760 On this episode, we talked with Jacob about the documentary Into the Light. 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:12,480 You're listening to the Dudes and Dads podcast, a show dedicated to helping men be better dudes and 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:18,640 dads by building community through meaningful conversation and storytelling. And now, here are 4 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:26,160 your hosts, Joel Daman and Andy Layman. Joel, you're awake. Andrew, listen, man. Detroit Rock City, 5 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:32,240 man. Beck, fresh from the great motor city in Detroit. You're in a late night. Late night, 6 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,360 overnight baseball tournament. I don't recommend it to anybody, but we're here. 7 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,320 I don't, my body doesn't know what time it is right now, but I'm feeling, 8 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:46,000 I'm feeling lively and engaged and ready to go and ready to do this thing. 9 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:51,280 Sweet. Sweet. Well, I'm glad because we're doing this thing. We aren't. No, there's no turning, 10 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,880 there's no turning back now. How are things with you? You know, going while, going while just 11 00:00:54,880 --> 00:01:00,560 getting ready for our vacation and going on vacation. We are, we are. So we're, we're, 12 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:05,680 we're, we're going to the Florida, to the Florida, to the Florida with the family. So 13 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:12,080 are you doing like Disney? Oh, that's right. That's right. Disney. Disney with the kids. 14 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:16,480 So is everybody equally as excited about this? Yes. We all are very excited. 15 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:21,120 Like the Disney thing. Yes, we do. That's good. I've not done the Disney world. We did the 16 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:27,520 Disneyland a few years ago. We went with, may he rest in peace. We went with uncle Gary, who 17 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:34,800 uh, uncle Gary, uncle Gary, disabled Vietnam vet who got us to the front of every single line. So 18 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:41,120 this is how my kids think Disney operates. When we do the next visit, they're going to be really 19 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,040 disappointed. They're going to be like, they're like, where's uncle Gary and his jazzy? Get me 20 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,280 in the front of the line. Yeah. Do the whole like weekend at Bernie's thing and just bring him along 21 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:55,120 anyways. That's, that's dark. But yes, we should bring along their dead great uncle. Why not? 22 00:01:55,120 --> 00:02:01,280 Um, hey, everybody, welcome to the dudes and dads podcast. Glad to see, to see, to hear, 23 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,880 to experience each and every one of you as you join us each and every week. 24 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,000 Guys, thank you. Uh, we do just want to say continue to say thank you for your support 25 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:16,320 as you've jumped on the, uh, the Patreon bad band wagon. As you've, uh, continued to just say, 26 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:21,440 uh, not just with your voices, but with your dollars, with your dollars, you've said, Hey, 27 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:25,680 we like the show. We think you guys are okay. And we want you to keep on doing the thing. So, 28 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:32,880 as always, you can head over to the dudes and dads podcast.com slash support. Andy, did I get 29 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:37,920 that right? You did slash support. And, uh, and there's a number of different ways that you can 30 00:02:37,920 --> 00:02:42,560 support us financially over there. Be a Patreon member. Glad for each and every one of you to 31 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:48,160 come alongside of us. So thank you. Okay. Great. So tonight we have Jacob with us. Jacob, welcome 32 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:55,280 to our show. Hi, Jacob. Gentlemen. I'm so stoked to talk to you guys. Yeah. Oh yeah. So Jacob reached 33 00:02:55,280 --> 00:03:00,880 out to me and said, Hey, I've created this documentary. And first off, I do want to put 34 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:05,200 this warning here. We are going to be talking about a little bit adult thing themes. So we've 35 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,480 talked about things like this in the show before we're talking about porn tonight. So would you 36 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:13,520 say we're PG or we are PG 13 plus? We're just going to be, I'm just warning parents that if 37 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,040 there are little kids in the car, we are going to be talking about the topic of pornography. So 38 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:22,160 fantastic. The documentary that you guys created is about, uh, pornography and the freedom from 39 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,920 that. And so we wanted to bring you on and talk a little bit about that tonight. So welcome to our 40 00:03:25,920 --> 00:03:36,720 show. Man. Again, really excited to be here. So I, the, uh, the thing that, uh, everyone wants to know, 41 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:41,280 I don't know if everyone wants to know, I want to know. I'm always just curious. I guess maybe take 42 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:45,520 us back to the beginning of the journey of this filmmaking process. Cause there's always, 43 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:50,160 for every filmmaker, for every documentary, there's always the things that led up to it, 44 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:55,200 the, the, uh, crossing of paths of different people, the hearing of the stories, the, the, 45 00:03:55,200 --> 00:04:00,320 the kind of the initial grounds well, if you will, if I can call that, um, that led to what, 46 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,840 uh, the ultimate end product here is we talk about the documentary. Um, so I just love for 47 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:10,800 you to tell us kind of the story of what, what got to the point of you saying, Hey, we need 48 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,880 to make a film. And by we, you also have another, you have a partner, which you can tell us all 49 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:19,280 about too. Uh, he's was going to be with us. He's, he's under the weather. So we want to 50 00:04:19,280 --> 00:04:23,680 extend our, our well wishes to him as well. But yeah, tell us, tell us the, uh, tell us the story. 51 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:30,160 Yeah, man. Um, so that, yeah, my partner, film partner, John Michael Bout, uh, honestly, 52 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:35,840 I'll say we probably 90% of this whole story, cause that lovely saint, like the two of us are 53 00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:41,360 like brothers and pretty much everything we do, like weaves together. So, um, but yeah, so, so 54 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:47,920 to our, the, the documentaries about pornography and specifically it's about freedom from pornography. 55 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:53,200 And so the reason that we're so stoked to be, to be working on something like this or have 56 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:59,360 finished a documentaries because freedom from sexual sin from pornography has been such 57 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:05,760 a big part of our like testimony and actually coming to Christ. And so if you go all the way 58 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:13,840 back for my story in particular, um, I had a bit of a unique story. My mom, amazing Christian woman, 59 00:05:13,840 --> 00:05:19,920 she talked to me a lot about pornography from when I was really young. And I had this incredible 60 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:25,280 opportunity just because of my mom and by the grace of God to not actually get hooked on 61 00:05:25,280 --> 00:05:31,120 pornography proper at any point in my life. And that's really rare. So I had this really, 62 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:38,320 this fortunate opportunity to not have that particular area, but I was completely addicted 63 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:44,080 to masturbation for like almost all of my teenage life. So, you know, uh, Jesus is very clear about 64 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:49,200 that, you know, Matthew five, that, that lust in your heart, just pursuing that over and over again. 65 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,840 And so I gave into that. And, and you know, I had this Pharisee card too, where I was like, 66 00:05:53,840 --> 00:05:59,200 I've got friends who watch porn, but I don't do that. Right. Um, and I went through my Bible, 67 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:04,560 but didn't see masturbation in there. So I was good to go. Um, I'll tell you Michael's story was, 68 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:09,120 was, he also had incredible, incredible godly parents who talked to him about pornography, 69 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:15,360 but he discovered porn when he was very young and he had a decade of being completely hooked to it. 70 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:21,760 So we kind of became friends, um, at about the point in our life where God really gripped both of 71 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:27,920 us and it was a combination of really good friends, you know, getting our hands on some solid resources 72 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:35,040 and kind of one of those slow, but you know, really cataclysmic moments in your life where 73 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:40,800 like I started realizing I'm not walking the Christian life at all. And I've got this sin 74 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:46,560 that I'm just, just recklessly giving into and, you know, I, and then going with all the 75 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:52,240 diff, some different idols in my life. And so God threw some really good friends, really freed me 76 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:58,000 from this bondage to sexual sin. And honestly, that, that might've been the time as about, you 77 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:04,800 know, 20 years old or so that I genuinely became a Christian. And I felt just a level of freedom 78 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:10,240 that I, it's almost impossible to articulate to me or I wouldn't even believed it was possible 79 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:16,560 at some point before that. So, so anyways, this is, I started, you know, investing into my 80 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:22,160 accountability groups in my hometown back in Canada and Jemical, my film partner, he did too. 81 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,760 And that just became a really regular part of our lives. You know, these accountability groups 82 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:30,640 were still important to us as we're growing in holiness, investing in other guys. And we had 83 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:35,840 all these books that, you know, Heath Lambert wrote, Garrett Kell wrote, that we're so meaningful 84 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:43,280 to us. And we give them out and not, not everyone had the time, had the space to read them. And 85 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:48,080 it kind of just became this consistent thing where, you know, these books were incredible, but 86 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:55,360 not getting opened. Fast forward, I go to seminary. And I had this really cool opportunity to get 87 00:07:55,360 --> 00:08:00,000 coffee with Tim Chalice. I don't know if you guys have heard of him. Yeah. Yeah. So he wrote this 88 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:05,280 really great book called sexual detox. And Tim, Tim's hilarious. I asked him about it. I'm like, 89 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,680 you know, what was the process of writing that book? And he goes, you know, the book's fine. 90 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:15,280 He's like, we've got better ones. Yeah, I thought it was so funny. He's a really down-to-earth guy. 91 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,960 But then he kind of stopped and he looked at me and he's like, you know, it's interesting. 92 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:25,120 We have this video problem of pornography. And in answer, we typically write books. You know, 93 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:30,080 there could be a space that could be used for like a video-oriented resource that tackled the 94 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,760 problem. And he kind of just said that and just kind of kept on going with the conversation. 95 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:38,000 But I was like thunderstruck because Tim didn't know that film was my background. That's, 96 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:44,560 that's what I did. Gotcha. Yeah. And so I kind of left that conversation like, huh. So immediately 97 00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:48,720 called Joe Michael, who is back in Canada. He's, he's since joined me at seminary where we go to 98 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:53,440 the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary here in Louisville, Kentucky. And I said, bro, you know, 99 00:08:53,440 --> 00:09:00,160 we're freedom from sexual sin has been this has been so important in our lives and in our walk 100 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:05,600 with God. And we've both been invested in like, in accountability groups and things like that. 101 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:12,560 We're filmmakers. Is there room for us? Could we potentially make a really counseling oriented 102 00:09:12,560 --> 00:09:16,800 resource that walks through the problem of pornography? And so we kind of chewed on it. 103 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:21,520 We started like kind of baseballing ideas back and forth. And eventually, you know, we realized 104 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:27,440 really quickly like, okay, our faces should not be in this thing. So can we reach out to all of 105 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:32,320 these writers, these authors, these speakers, these counselors who have meant a lot to us and see if 106 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,400 they'd be willing to kind of come together and form this team, that would be like the backbone 107 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:42,800 of the documentary. Praise God, they did. And we just, it started, it kicked off many, many months 108 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:47,920 of Zoom meetings and I'll put you in contact with this person and swapping emails. And, and 109 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:52,320 let me know the whole process, which you guys can ask about. But the end result is, you know, 110 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:57,200 into the light is a teaching documentary that walks through the process of change, right, 111 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:03,120 from bondage and sexual sin to freedom in Christ. So it's a resource for strugglers. And our heart 112 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:09,200 is that we want it to be, to be a tool for the church to give people resources who might struggle 113 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:14,000 to read. And so that's, that's the sales pitch. And it's done. What's really, what's really awesome 114 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:19,360 about it, which I'd love to talk about this is it's free, 100% free for churches, families, 115 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:23,920 for anyone to jump on our website, into the light documentary.com. And yeah, let's talk, 116 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,360 let's talk about that. Like, so how, how, how are you able to make that free? 117 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,680 Let's talk about that. That's awesome. Yeah, because I don't know about you guys, 118 00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:36,080 but like, I don't know if you're on Facebook and you see like, you know, offering this free course. 119 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,800 Yeah, right. Yeah, bait and switch, 100%. Yeah, you're like, or, or bait and switch, 120 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:47,600 or you're like, if it's actually free, it's probably crap. Yeah. So what we did, so one 121 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:53,520 of our convictions was we really wanted to offer it for free. If we could, our other 122 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:58,480 conviction was Starving's not a great idea. So we, and you know, Joe Michael has a, has a wife 123 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,600 and, and his second kid on the way. So we couldn't just loan a year and a half of our life to this. 124 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:09,440 So what we did is we tried to do a crowdfunding model. So what we did is we invested about 125 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:15,200 $40,000 of our own time and money into it upfront, spent that time to film with, with 126 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:20,320 Heath Lambert, Garrett Kell, Ellen Dijkess, all these different speakers. And then we started 127 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:27,120 crowdfunding in the summer of 2022. And then one of the most humbling things I've ever been through 128 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:33,680 in my life, just Christians across North America, like praise God, saw the vision stepped up and 129 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:42,640 we raised $85,000 in about six weeks, um, six, uh, 10 weeks, but six weeks. And, and so now, um, 130 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:47,440 that, that paid for the whole film. And so now we, now it's a free, free resource. And I'm, 131 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:51,280 I'm stoked about that because I don't have to do a bait and switch. I don't have to, you know, 132 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,920 sell anything on the other end. It's just, I hope it's helpful. 133 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,920 Sure. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about, you said it's a teaching resource and when I watched 134 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:03,280 it, I did watch it, um, and it's in, in chapters. So how is this meant to be consumed? Is it meant 135 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:08,240 to be consumed as one giant documentary or is it in different, you know, small setting, small group 136 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,800 settings or how does, how do you envision this going for people watching it? 137 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:20,480 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, we did the chapters so you could have that flexibility. So the way I 138 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,400 kind of think about it is, you know, if you're, if let's say you're a pastor of a church and you're 139 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:29,760 like, I would love a resource that like I could just invite the church to and kind of get everyone 140 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:34,160 on the same page, kind of get some of those resources or some of those kind of key ideas, 141 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:39,680 accountability, um, like, you know, the, how addictive pornography is hope for people who 142 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:43,760 are struggling, God's good design for marriage. Just kind of get some of those foundations out 143 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:48,560 there to a larger group of people than watching it like, like a documentary is one of the best 144 00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:52,880 ways to do that. So it's a, it's like 90 minutes long, a little bit less, and it's, it's a full, 145 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:59,680 it's a full film. But then we also broke it up into six teaching sections, so six chapters. 146 00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:06,240 And so someone could run a six week, um, like kind of small group study guide style and then 147 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:10,800 watch each one, have that discussion, talk about it. And so, and then each of those speakers 148 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:17,120 take up those, those six chapters. And then we are a week or so, maybe two weeks from releasing 149 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:23,040 a study guide. Okay, awesome. You know, you could grab question sets, take home, um, material and 150 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:28,000 stuff like that, that can kind of accompany those chapters and, and people can walk through. So 151 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:32,240 it's functionally the same material, but we, we chopped it up on our website in two different 152 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,960 ways, just depending on what's most helpful for people. Yes. You know, I've been thinking, and 153 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:42,400 Andy, I don't know if you, I, I know Andy probably had similar thoughts as he was watching this and 154 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:49,520 as I was watching it. Um, so my two eldest boys are 13 and 12 years old and we are, you know, 155 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:54,000 I've got, uh, I've got four kiddos, but those two right now are, you know, the ones, yeah, 156 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,560 those are the ones Jackie and my wife and I are routinely just had another conversation this past 157 00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:03,520 weekend about like, we do the regular check in of like, how well are we doing at talking to our 158 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:09,280 children and then into our boys and, you know, about sex in general, just to sexuality in general, 159 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:14,640 because they're obviously bombarded with a lot of different narratives about that mostly right now. 160 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:23,040 Um, uh, not explicit explicitly, but more like, uh, it's just sort of kind of like bubbling into 161 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,240 the culture, right? Like there's, there's just kind of all these assumptions that are made. 162 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,880 Um, you know, so whenever I, like, I heard one of my boys even use the term, like, 163 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:35,680 use the term gay the other day, like accurately, like not pejoratively, but accurately. And I'm 164 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,040 like, so we're, again, it's like, well, where, where is he hearing this? And if he's hearing 165 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,160 this, what else is he hearing? And you know, your, your mind begins to go like, okay, 166 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:49,600 there, there's a level of exposure there, obviously. Um, but as I was watching this 167 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:56,640 documentary, I thought to myself, like even like, like age appropriateness for this 168 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:02,800 documentary and for the, and for the audience, I did, I felt like at least at the, I mean, 169 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:09,920 by and large that my 12 and 13 year old son could watch this with me and have a really clear 170 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:16,160 and, and, and again, so great. I think a real, uh, pat on the back to you guys is that it's 171 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:23,360 so clearly communicated. There's not, uh, there, there's not a lot of confusing, uh, content to 172 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:28,480 a very, I'm biblical kind of, biblically straightforward, uh, clearly communicated. 173 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,640 But like you said, and kind of these, these bite-sized pieces that, because I just, I know, 174 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:37,280 like with my kiddos, it's like, okay, if I get a 15 minute, uh, viewing session with them, we've 175 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:41,440 done well, right? Like that's, like that's, that's good. So that was, but what began to turn around 176 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:47,040 and, you know, kind of turn in my brain of kind of the audience that you guys were hoping for, 177 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:51,040 just in terms of age range, what were you, what were you thinking about there? Cause I'm sure 178 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:56,160 that those conversations were, were at play. Um, as you thought about this being a church, 179 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,320 because as a filmmaker, and I even as a communicator myself, you're always thinking, 180 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:06,000 okay, how broad do I want this to be? Where do I want it to go? Narrow? Where do I need, 181 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,760 want it to go wide? What is the purpose? You know, you're trying to kind of reverse engineer 182 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:14,560 all of that. Um, what were you guys's thoughts of, like thoughts about that kind of conversation? 183 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,240 Cause I know plenty of the dads that are listening right now are going, is this something that, 184 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,960 you know, my kid at age, X, Y, Z could, could engage with, you know, with me. 185 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:28,960 Yeah. Dude, I, I love some of those things you noticed about it too. I really appreciate that. 186 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:34,880 And yeah, it's, it's a tough question because, and you guys know this too, 187 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:43,920 like as parents, culture and, and the ubiquity, like the ubiquity of pornography kind of forces 188 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:49,040 your hand a little bit for the conversation. So, you know, in a different world, it would have 189 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,440 been really nice to let most of our kids grow up to the 12 without really having the talk and 190 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:59,760 just, just let that go. But you don't get that option really anymore. Um, especially the majority 191 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,920 of my friends, they've stumbled across pornography when they were about eight or nine years old. 192 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:09,360 And so it's like, so it's kind of hard because, you know, part of me wishes, 193 00:17:09,360 --> 00:17:13,200 we didn't have to have that conversation. You guys, your parents, you know, you know what's up. 194 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:20,720 One of our commitments was when we were creating the documentary is to just radically stay away 195 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:26,800 from anything that would be either triggering or pointing to lust. So there was, there's no scare 196 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:32,400 tactics. There's no shock value. Like this is how bad the porn industry is, which has its time 197 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:37,440 in place, right? I'm, I'm not against that, but this is very much, Hey, you love Jesus, 198 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,840 you're Christian. We're not going to sit here and try and sell you on why porn is wrong. You've 199 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:46,720 got that. But let's just, you're a struggler. Let's walk through the process. Just starting with 200 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,240 step one, all the way to, you know, ending with Garrett Kell, who talks about like, 201 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,240 you're hoping Christ and what it looks like to be part of a church walking alongside each other. 202 00:17:54,960 --> 00:18:00,000 And so all that to say, yeah, it's cool. It's cool for me to hear that you feel like you could, 203 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,000 you could hit that maybe carefully with your, with your like 12 year old. Yeah. Cause that was 204 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:09,360 our, that was about where like kind of the minimum are of where we were thinking because, you know, 205 00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:12,880 there's heavy, there's heavy stuff. Yeah. Really walking through God's design for marriage, 206 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,960 you know, we touch, sorry, we, you know, we talk a little bit about masturbation, 207 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:22,480 trying to walk through that conversation, which is complex. And just going through a lot of the, 208 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,160 you know, the foundational steps to like cutting off access and things like that. 209 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:31,440 You know, and so our target, our target was a little older, probably like late teens or something. 210 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,880 Obviously you really hope it's, it's, it's, it's a simple documentary in the sense of 211 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,880 we don't do a forehand to marriage. We don't really go into like dating conversations. 212 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,560 We don't really dive into this, the porn industry. It's a really simple, 213 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:47,760 what does the process of change look like for somebody struggling? 214 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:54,400 Well, yeah. And I think a base level, like even as you begin the film, like a base level of 215 00:18:54,400 --> 00:19:00,480 what I would kind of say, a core theology and sexuality in general. Like, and if we start, 216 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:05,120 and if we start there, and I think about that's probably the biggest, I mean, it's really 217 00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:09,840 interesting for me, like as someone with a, you know, advanced theological degree, like I, 218 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:14,640 I think to myself, that's all well and good. But when you sit down across from your 12 year old 219 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:20,960 and you try to, you know, like, it's like all of daddy's fancy learning, you know, at that, 220 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:27,920 in that moment, it's kind of like, okay, how do you succinctly and appropriately and, and contextually 221 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:33,200 bring your child into the world of sexuality? Yeah. 222 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,480 In a way, yeah, in a way that they're going to navigate it in a healthy way, understand core 223 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:45,200 kind of foundational biblical principles. Because that's the other thing, like I didn't feel, 224 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,320 I don't know, there's sometimes where I can almost feel myself getting on the defensive 225 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:56,080 for, for like the potential listener who is already struggling. And I think you said it so 226 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,640 well, it was already struggling. And basically what they're hearing is, is not going to help 227 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:06,000 them move forward, but basically is just going to confirm, you know, that they feel like crap 228 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:11,440 already. And then it's just a confirmation of no, you should feel like crap and good luck, 229 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:16,080 you know, and good luck with that. Yeah. There's hope. There's hope there, which I, 230 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,480 you know, I would hope that all of us, you know, could, could see on the other side. So. 231 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:25,520 Yeah. It was interesting, Joel, my, as we're coming here, both of my boys are actually here 232 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,840 at the church tonight. And they were like, you know, who's going to be, you know, who you're 233 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,360 interviewing. And so I took that time and said, Nope, there's this guy that a couple guys that 234 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:38,320 created this, you know, documentary on porn, and we're going to be talking about that and how to, 235 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:42,240 you know, free, you know, to become free from that. And so that was a good opportunity for me 236 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,320 to talk about that. And I probably actually will end up watching with them. I didn't watch it last 237 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:50,000 night with him, but I will probably will end up watching with them. But yeah, so it was a good 238 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:54,320 opportunity for me. My boys are, you know, my boys are older, you know, there's high school age. 239 00:20:54,880 --> 00:21:00,160 So they're, they're definitely that that's ready. They're ready for the conversation. They're 240 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:05,840 definitely, they're, they're, they're definitely hearing. I mean, they're hearing plenty of things 241 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,040 elsewhere. Well, and one of the things I appreciated too in the documentary was you guys 242 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:16,160 touched on the fact that porn isn't just a dude problem. It's also female. Like it's not, you 243 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:20,880 know, obviously not people that are female also struggle with that same thing. So I appreciated 244 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:27,360 you guys touching on that too. Oh my goodness. Yeah. So that's like that again was one of the 245 00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:32,560 things that we kind of settled on pretty quickly was like, we need to have this conversation. 246 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,640 You know, we need to include women in this conversation, if that makes sense. That kind 247 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:42,000 of started off as, as a conviction, but a bit of a fuzzy idea, if I'm honest. So the kind of the 248 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:47,600 first thing as a couple of guys making this, we're like, hold on. So we contacted every woman, 249 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,920 biblical counselor, every author we could and said, and just basically were like, Hey, 250 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,480 a couple of guys making a documentary here, please tell us what you think. Just give us, 251 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,960 just start kind of pouring into us your thoughts on this problem so that if we're going to make a 252 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:06,880 resource, we're going to do it right for our sisters in the church. And oh my goodness. Like, 253 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,800 well, first of all, a lot of them were really grateful that we reached out to them, but they 254 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:17,440 just started just be like very clearly said, don't for a second buy that this is just a man's problem. 255 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:21,520 I can't tell you how many girls I get through our doors at our counseling office, 256 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:26,720 who are just hooked on proper hardcore pornography, just like guys. And, you know, 257 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,720 I've read some of the sociological literature, you can slice and dice the statistics in a 258 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,280 few different ways. And there's there's meaningful differences when you want to have that level 259 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:41,200 of conversation. But on the whole, it's just, there are so many girls, women in the churches 260 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:46,880 in churches who are just really, really struggling with this. And one of the things that a lot of 261 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:51,680 the the women we're talking to us about, they're like, you don't understand, like it's very, 262 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:56,400 actually, I couldn't say you don't, it's very hard for especially guys to understand the extra 263 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:02,960 levels of shame that women go through because we've talked about it like a man's problem for so long. 264 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,360 So a lot of women are in the pews when just a casual reference to and, you know, the guys 265 00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:14,080 with pornography, they go, what kind of monster am I that I struggle with this man's problem? 266 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:20,880 And when you really boil it down, like, it's so horrible to throw out a problem in the church 267 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:26,720 context and then not follow that up with the good news of the gospel, the person to work of Jesus 268 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,200 Christ, and then offer that to both men and women. Because when you just offer it to men, you're 269 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:36,240 tacitly saying, women, look, if you if you struggle with this problem, we're not really 270 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,480 going to address you or include you in the conversation. And that's, I mean, that just 271 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:45,520 needs to change. I'm sympathetic, right? Like, it's hard enough to have this conversation, 272 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,120 which let's do it fully orbs and well, and none of us are going to do it perfectly. 273 00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:53,600 But we were really committed. So we have Ellen Dykass from Harvest USA, who's 274 00:23:54,240 --> 00:24:00,480 the best. She's awesome. And then Jenny Solomon, who's she, she's the wife of a professor at Southern, 275 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:05,600 and she's incredible too, like so much fun to work with. And both of them just killed it for 276 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,840 their chapters. So I'm just, I'm super grateful that they were willing to put their time into it. 277 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,760 Yeah. And that's the, you know, that's the reality of the, 278 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:19,840 the, yeah, I mean, the engagement with pornographic material within women, I mean, 279 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,040 the number is on the, it's on the, and on the rise. And I don't even know actually what the 280 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:28,800 current statistic is, but, you know, I know the last time I looked at it, it was somewhere around 281 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:35,360 the 38, 38 to 40th percentile. And that, that the time was shocking to me because I know I 282 00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:40,160 probably had some, I, you know, whatever, I had the traditional misconstrued ideas, you know, 283 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:44,720 way back when about, again, like you said, the primarily the guys, a guys issue. 284 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:53,120 And yeah, there's, there is a sense in which the reasons, the reasons for pornographic, 285 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:59,520 you know, engagement can vary from men to women and how they're initially, 286 00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:05,680 you know, exposed to it. I think the stories that I've heard from a lot of, a lot of women, 287 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,560 like, while you do, like you said, you know, kind of proper, there's kind of proper hardcore content. 288 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:17,680 There's also the, like within pornographic content, content within like what they're 289 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,760 reading specifically. Like there's usually, like there's other, because there's a need, 290 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:26,400 a need, a desire for sort of like, and this is how it kind of, I think it ties in together. And 291 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,760 I'd be interested to see if you guys kind of experienced the same thing, what you saw. 292 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:36,240 A need for intimacy, like a need for intimacy. And then there's engagement in that kind of 293 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:41,680 material on the women's side, can be on the guy's side too. And so there's, that's how 294 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,760 maybe women are engaging it. And then men for other reasons, and then these two individuals 295 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:51,280 come into a relationship for, for the very reasons of what they're lacking, you know, 296 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:56,320 of what they're lacking relationally. But what they've been engaging in is actually creating 297 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,320 this kind of, it's like they're pulled together, but then pushed apart from each other for the, 298 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,920 for the very reasons of what they've, you know, what they've experienced so far. And I think, 299 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,200 you know, it's said in the documentary early, like one of the early chapters, it was, you know, 300 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:14,320 they talked about this couple who, you know, had not talked with each other about what their 301 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:19,200 experiences had been. Both of them had, you know, were struggling with this. And then they get into 302 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,360 their marital relationship. And there's an assumption that that the marriage itself will 303 00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:28,480 fix things or it will overcome those things. And almost what it does is actually just puts a 304 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:35,120 giant magnifying glass on, on the problem, right? It kind of forces you into this, into this place. 305 00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:42,720 And, you know, I, so all that to say, anymore, it feels like, and I know within my own, within 306 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:49,200 my own counseling practice, I know that men and women, when they come into my office, increasingly 307 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:56,720 so, there's a conversation about some sort of sexual malformation in the lives of both of them. 308 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,640 Because of these things. And it isn't, it isn't one or the other specifically. 309 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,280 And I think that's an important thing that you guys, again, highlighted, highlighted well, 310 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,720 gave a balanced perspective too. So hopefully that's helpful for people. 311 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:18,080 Yeah. Yeah, I, it would have been, it would have been really nice if we could, you know, 312 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:23,440 explore and, and really address some of those like relation, like relationship marital dynamics 313 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:28,400 more. And that's not quite the heart of this, of this documentary. And you guys know this as 314 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:34,640 communicators, you know, you, you, you really got to pick what you want to say. And you know, 315 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:41,600 but yeah, it's so, I mean, it's so hard because it's, you know, pornography, sexuality is, 316 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:47,200 sorry, let me rephrase, scrap that sentence, sexuality, God's gift of sex is just this 317 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:53,120 incredible, beautiful gifts to human kinds, to humans in the context of marriage. It's like one 318 00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:58,880 of, you know, the fact that marriage image, images Christ in the church, like there's just these 319 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:04,640 deep rich theological depth there, that is such a beautiful thing. And then pornography enters that 320 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:10,960 equation. And then there's pornography, Roman, like romance novels, the worst kind. And, and all of 321 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:17,840 these things just pull this distortion in almost every key thing that God designed sex for, takes 322 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:24,000 it the same thing, and then just orients it back towards yourself. And so when you've been trained 323 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:31,440 with pornography so long to, to hunt for what gratifies yourself more, to then take what God 324 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:37,040 used that for, and then reapply it to the, like, to, for someone else becomes this like extremely 325 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:43,280 foreign concept. And, and, and then people have to relearn how to use sexuality. And for a lot of 326 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:48,240 people relearn how to use sexuality that they discovered when they were eight years old, years 327 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,240 before they hit puberty, years before they were ever, years before they were ever supposed to 328 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,080 know what that is, which is then years before they were ever supposed to put that in practice in the 329 00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:02,160 context of marriage. So it's hard, man, you're, my heart goes out to sit like if someone's listening, 330 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:09,200 right, they're, I don't know, 18, 19, 25, whatever, it's possible they're decades 331 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:14,320 plural deep into a struggle of pornography that started long before they really had like the 332 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:20,480 wisdom categories to navigate that. And it's hard, like it, and that's, that's why we kind of what 333 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:27,600 you said, Joel, like about like, like having that part of compassion and offering the hope of the 334 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:33,200 gospel, it has to be there. Because like, honestly, a documentary being like, ooh, porn's scary, 335 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:38,080 porn's bad, you're a sinner. It's not, it's not necessary. We know plenty of guilt out there. 336 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,680 There's, there's enough guilt to spare. Right. But to offer the hope of the gospel, 337 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,600 let's say you can change and it's going to be hard, but there are steps that work. Like, 338 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,320 that's, that's what I'm the business about. And that's what makes it fun. Like, that's what's 339 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,760 exciting about that. Yeah. I'm not, we're not trying to scare anybody. And you guys are, as 340 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:56,400 counselors, as pastors and stuff, you, you know, that it's just not helpful to scare people, right? 341 00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,240 Well, yeah. And yeah, well, because what you get them in with is what you have to keep them there 342 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:06,640 with. And that's, that's the thing, like the, the, the scare tactic, it can go, it can go one 343 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:12,080 of two ways. You can, the ditch, the ditch on either side is bring them in with it with a, 344 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:17,840 hey, everything is super easy, fun and shiny. And so, you know, hey, try Jesus on and, you know, 345 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,400 the, you know, religious good and service on that side, or bring them in with the fear and the 346 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,720 shame and, and whatever, but then you have to like keep, you have to keep perpetuating that. 347 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:31,760 And surprise, surprise, people don't grow well under that. And, you know, that's a whole other 348 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:37,040 episode for why we exist in kind of a national discipleship crisis because of those same reasons. 349 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:44,400 Like to see actual transformation and change happen in lives is, I believe 110% possible, 350 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:49,680 but we've, we've got to, and I think you guys have illustrated it well and the content that 351 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,760 you've made. We have got to talk about the things that actually matter and actually, 352 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:58,480 actually yield, yield change. And then we have to be obedient to those things. That's the other 353 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:04,720 thing, like not just mentally, mentally assenting to truths, but, but following and walking and 354 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:10,720 walking them out. And that's the, that's why we need each other. That's why, you know, I think 355 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:17,120 viewing, like viewing this documentary in the setting of, of a communal setting, like I'm even 356 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:22,000 thinking about the small group, you know, the men's group that I'm in with. We're all a bunch of dads, 357 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:28,000 you know, I've got kids from every, every age range, but you know, we're, we're always having 358 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:34,640 the conversation with like, Oh my gosh, like how do we, how do we actually get our, like how do we 359 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:41,520 clearly communicate this? Not frighten our children to death, but also not allow them to be ignorant 360 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:48,640 or unprepared. And, you know, and then, and even in that conversation, it's like, and then by the 361 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:54,320 way, Joel, like, how are you doing? Like you're, you're trying to, you know, lead, lead young men 362 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:59,040 well. Turns out, you know, you need, you need to have your radar up and you need to have an 363 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:05,200 awareness there too. So yeah, super, super helpful. A question I would have is in this, in this 364 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:10,240 process, like you guys are still pretty early. How long has the documentary been like a re like 365 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:16,800 out in the wild to this, to this point? Yeah. Uh, we had our official Canadians. We're a couple 366 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,960 of Canadians, by the way. Sure. I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't pick up on that a boot. 367 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:29,520 My accent's all muddled up. I was born in New Zealand. Oh, even better, even better. And now 368 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:35,360 you're in Kentucky. My gosh. And I've probably picked up a teeny bit of a Southern twang song. 369 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:43,760 So we had our proper Canadian premiere on the 28th of January. Okay. And then, and then we had a, we 370 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:48,400 like a lot of incredible people at, at the Southern Baptist Theological Assembly got together. 371 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:54,640 We had a second kind of US premiere there a few weeks ago. So it's been a bit about a month or 372 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,520 yeah, a month, couple months. Yeah, you're, we're, we're fresh on it. Andy, we're, we're early adopters 373 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:06,160 and that's really what I, that's really what I heard him say. Uh, so what I'm wondering in the 374 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:12,880 process. Um, and because you guys are early on, what are, are there just some, maybe general stories 375 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,600 that you're hearing coming, coming out of this or, or maybe we're early enough that I don't know, 376 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:22,480 like maybe they're still sort of emerging, but what, what has been the response to this, to this 377 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:28,640 point? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so one of the, so I, I, we have a couple of stories which are, which have 378 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:36,880 been really funny. Um, one of the cool stats that I love is we are at, I think 94 churches and small 379 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:42,240 groups have, um, have locked on, like build out a form locked on committed to showing it at their 380 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:48,880 church or in a small group context. So, which I reeled about because that means, you know, saints 381 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,120 are, are grabbing hold of this resource and then doing the hard work in their local community, 382 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,600 yeah, doing accountability, which is awesome because I'm a resource creator. I'm a creative. 383 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:02,400 I love storytelling. I love teaching, but the real work is going to be the months that you're 384 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:07,120 walking alongside each other that you're having those conversations, like those hard conversations. 385 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:12,080 And so I'm really excited to see it. Exactly what you said in the context of community and in 386 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:17,440 the local church. Um, but one of the, like one particular story that I was, that I was really 387 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:23,280 thrilled about, um, is one, there was a kid who around here who went to the Asbury revival, 388 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:28,720 all that stuff that was happening. And he just got really convicted of, of his addiction to 389 00:34:28,720 --> 00:34:33,440 pornography. And he came back and, and he just came back to his house and his sister who, who 390 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:38,640 he had a really good relationship with and sister's friend were there. Um, and he just came to sister 391 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:45,280 and just, and I just said, look, I need to confess to you. I've, I'm completely addicted to pornography 392 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:51,840 and I need help. Um, her friend was there and said, Hey, I just heard of this documentary 393 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,840 that just came out about pornography. Do you want to Google it and see like it maybe will 394 00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,640 be helpful? And they watched it and apparently it was really helpful. And I love that because 395 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:06,480 I assume this kid probably didn't have, I say kid, I don't mean that in a disparaging way, 396 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:12,560 but I don't think he had, you know, Deepak's book, Keith's book in his back pocket. Like 397 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,760 he didn't probably didn't intuitively just know the steps, the first things, locking down your 398 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:20,160 phone, accountability, but the documentary in an hour and a half, you can get some of those, 399 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:25,120 at least those handholds to first start those conversations, like, or start, you know, a journey 400 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:31,200 if you will. So that's the one that kind of kicks out to my mind of, of, you know, and all the 401 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:37,120 debates about Asbury aside, this particular individual was convicted by the Holy Spirit of his sin. 402 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:43,200 Praise God for that. And God used our documentary to, to be at least the launching pad for him. 403 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:47,440 And I don't know where his story ends up. God knows. Hopefully he has a community around him. 404 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:52,000 But man, I'm thrilled to death that that, that was a little story that we got to hear about. 405 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,680 That's great. And I'm sure you'll hear, yeah, and I'm sure you'll hear more though, 406 00:35:55,680 --> 00:36:01,840 um, as, as things, yeah, as things roll out, that's a, that's a really, really encouraging thing. 407 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:08,960 And we're like, where do you guys hope to go from here? I mean, is it, is it really just, 408 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,760 and I think after we're off air here, I've got, I'm even thinking of some ways I can connect 409 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:20,480 to you guys to some, some other networks that we're, we're connected with. But I, I think about, 410 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,560 you know, like you said, you've, you've got the, the small group resource coming out, 411 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,440 which I think will be, as you know, and that's the reason why you're doing it, 412 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:32,000 I think will be immeasurably helpful. Give some handlebars there to, to work through the content. 413 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,880 What, what's the, what's the dream for this? What would you say if you look at it at the 414 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,040 end of the day and you say, like, here's how we would like to see this documentary 415 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:47,280 really fully played out and even maybe next steps beyond that. What, uh, what are you guys hopeful 416 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:53,200 for? What are you praying for? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, every person who creates something 417 00:36:53,200 --> 00:37:00,080 wants it to be seen by people or no exception. Um, so view count is awesome, but really, 418 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:04,800 I hope it's slowly and steadily, our prayer is that the documentary slowly and steadily 419 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,280 works its way into church contexts and that people just get on it and, and say, 420 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,520 this will be helpful in our small group and our Bible study and our discipleship training, 421 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,680 something like that. And it seems to be what's happening so far, 422 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:23,440 solid day of Gloria. Um, we're really, really excited about, about how it's gone so far. So next 423 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:30,000 steps, um, man, cause you guys, you guys already, uh, we're talking about this, parents keep coming 424 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:37,120 to us and saying, and Godly Bible believing love their kids, parents and say, Hey, how do I have 425 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,920 this conversation with my nine year old? And you know, these, again, these parents are, they're 426 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:47,600 really keyed into the problem of it, but they don't know what a VPN, VPN, they don't know how 427 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:52,800 a router system works. They don't know. So there's all these steps. And then they're also questioning 428 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:57,600 like, how do I have these conversations? Like from the kind of parenting, like growing up side 429 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:03,840 of things. So we're in the process of really early process, having those conversations, 430 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:09,440 beginning the, the fundraising process, cause that's just a reality of we want to make a 431 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:14,160 really tight teaching series for parents that walks through how to have that conversation 432 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,320 with your, with your children. And then also how to form proof your home. Let's walk through the 433 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,400 tech. Let's walk through some of the principles about locking down your home because that's not 434 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:27,600 the be all and end all, but you can do a lot. And when you can do a lot, you're giving a breathing 435 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:33,280 space for a curious nine year old to never come across that. And that few years can make a lot 436 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,680 of a difference. So those are a lot of conversations. We're really just reaching out to as many people 437 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:42,320 as we can learning, having those conversations, kind of getting people in our orbit to, as we start 438 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:47,040 to kind of write this out. And it's a lot, it's more complicated than the documentary by a long 439 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:55,760 shot. Sure. As parents, you know, there's nothing, there's nothing about it. So many parents are, 440 00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:00,880 that's the first thing on their mind. How do I talk to my kids about this? So God's given us, 441 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:06,320 God's given us a few tools, a few connections. We trust that he'll provide funding because he 442 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,480 did it last time. So yeah. And that's kind of where we're headed for the next one. So that's 443 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:16,080 kind of, that's sort of 2023 ish. Beautiful. Great. Well, then we want to, we want to get 444 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:20,160 on the bandwagon and support you guys. And so we'll just, we'll keep on telling everybody 445 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:24,960 everything we can about, about the project. And I think, I mean, as I listen, I know, 446 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:32,240 you know, it's just like, again, how, how needed that resource is, how helpful it is to, 447 00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:39,920 I don't know, I talk a lot about going upstream, you know, we're, we're trying so hard pulling 448 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:45,200 dead bodies or barely lifeless bodies out of the river downstream. What, what does it look like to 449 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:50,800 go, dare I say, on the offensive a little bit and to say, man, how can we keep, how can we keep 450 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:56,400 them from falling into the river to begin with? How could we, you know, we are only ultimately 451 00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:01,840 chasing safety. I don't even think safety is quite even the goal, but godliness and faithfulness 452 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:06,080 is, and we will bump up against dark things like that. That's, that's going to happen. 453 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:11,520 Do we have the things in place, however, to, to live faithfully in the midst of it? I, I don't 454 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,760 know. I just been in the world that we're in right now. I know you guys, you guys can feel it. 455 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:20,160 It feels like we're, you know, there's like attack and darkness from every side, you know, 456 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,760 you're, you're just wondering all the time, like, can we actually get, get through this? 457 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:29,120 Can we actually parent without having kids that, you know, despite our best efforts, 458 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:34,320 just go into the world completely confused and sideways on so many things. And it's going to 459 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:38,480 take intentionality, but it's going to take the use of resources like you guys are, are providing. 460 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,560 So I'm, I'm grateful for that and excited about that. And we want to, we want to promote it. 461 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,720 Want to get it out there. So. Hey, I, I appreciate that, man. I don't know, like, 462 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,440 maybe a word of encouragement. You guys have a lot of dads listening to this. I'm younger, 463 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:58,080 like I'm, I'm not married, by the way. I'm 25. I, a word of encouragement, because I've got, 464 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,840 I sit in this weird position where I hang out with the adults and talk to the adults, but also 465 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:08,000 like, I got a bunch of like 17 year old, 18 year old friends. It's possible. It's possible. It's 466 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:14,880 possible to have those real heavy conversations to, it's possible to have a 15, 16 year old kid 467 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:21,360 who's like, I mean, it's going to be a dipstick, you know, but who loves Jesus and he's fighting 468 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:26,720 this as much as he can, maybe stumbling, but whose head screwed on straight. And that's not, 469 00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:30,560 it's not a promise. It's not just, you know, days from the sky, like your kid's going to be fine. 470 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:35,760 We don't get those, but it's, it's possible. And I know that because I've been a part of church 471 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:41,040 communities who took this seriously, did the work and, and by the grace of God, have, have a good 472 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:47,120 community of young people who are aware and thoughtful and, and working on it. So, um, 473 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,880 yeah, it's, it's, I'm sympathetic, man. It's hard, but it's possible to have, to have kids, 474 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:57,920 have your kids walk in freedom from pornography. It's not a, it's not an all consuming fire, right? 475 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,000 Um, I don't know if that, I don't know if that's helpful or not. I'm sure you guys can speak 476 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:07,200 on that more than that. That's great. Yeah. But you have to, God is good. God is good. He's not 477 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:11,680 going to leave his church just floundering with, with no like handholds, right? Yeah. 478 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:17,680 Well, we really appreciate you being on the show tonight, but we can't let you go at all without 479 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:23,680 doing the following. Now it's time for the Jews and dads pop quiz. Get ready. Oh, right. All right. 480 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:28,800 So if you've never joined us before, we just pepper you with random, random questions. So, 481 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:33,600 but have nothing to do with the topic going on. So Joel, are you ready for, are you going to do 482 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:38,080 this first? Yeah, I'm going to start. I'm looking at my trying to get some good questions. Yeah, 483 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:43,040 I'm looking at right now. Okay. Here, first question for you. What is, uh, what crazy 484 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:49,280 activities do you dream about trying someday? A crazy activity you dream about trying someday? 485 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:56,160 28 foot yacht cruising through the Bahamas. I got a spearfishing pole, 486 00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:00,800 like a spearfishing pole. I'm just spending my days trying to marble grouper through just 487 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:05,920 what to do. I would, man, if I could subsist off of spearfishing fish for like a weekend or something, 488 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:11,120 bless me up. That's what I want. Best answer yet. Just hands down. Hands down. Well done. 489 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:18,000 All right. What is something that you like that most people don't like? Oh my. 490 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:27,600 I don't know. That's hard, man. With the internet, you're going to find a sub community of every 491 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,120 single thing that you're nerding out on. Where am I an island on? 492 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:41,360 It can be sometimes like, like a thing that when you're out and you try it, or you do it, 493 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,240 or whatever else is like, dude, what is, what is the matter with you? 494 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:52,080 I actually like Greek. Okay. In my, in my seminary world, that's you're, you're a, 495 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:56,480 you're an island. If you, do you find that most of your Greek, most of your, this is, and this is 496 00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:03,040 just, uh, yeah, Greek student Joel speaking. So, so my, for my undergraduate program, we were, 497 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:07,920 so we required coin a Greek study. Like you, you take full courses at the undergraduate level. 498 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:13,840 I would agree with you. There was a heavy, heavy division in the class. We had one kid who was 499 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,960 not even a ministry major kid. He was an engineering student and was just taking 500 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,680 Greek for fun. I freaking hated that dude because he was the best. He was the best at it. He was 501 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,560 the best Greek student in the class. I didn't even need to take it. I didn't even need to take it. 502 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,920 And all the rest of us are looking at, like the professor's like swooning over him, 503 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:32,000 like he's some sort of golden child. Do you, do you get that sense when you're in the class? 504 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:36,000 You're like, there's a heavy division between, uh, or is everybody like, I'm just taking this 505 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:41,760 because I have to. Yeah. I mean, Southern's huge. So there's a massive spectrum, but like, 506 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:47,600 there's one girl who's like such a cool person. She's like 19. She's in the undergrad level. 507 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:52,960 She bumped up to the seminary level for kicks and is taking, and she's my engineering student. 508 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:58,240 That's, she's that one. There's always one. No, I can't diss her cause she's awesome and she's 509 00:44:58,240 --> 00:45:03,600 way smarter than all of us. I'm just like, all right, good for you. It is a little bit like, 510 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:08,480 I'm like, I got like seven years on you and I'm struggling with this participle nonsense at this 511 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:13,520 point. But I don't know. It's what I found is more funny is the division between Greek and Hebrew. 512 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:19,840 Sure. I, I cannot stand that language. I can't, Hebrew makes no sense to me. I don't know why 513 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:25,520 every verb has to be three root letters. That seems insane to me. Greek, Greek is poetic. 514 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,520 It's beautiful. I'm here for it. Hebrew can't spoken. Like it's your Greek student. Good for 515 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:35,360 you. Good for you. Yeah. Okay. All the, all the, all the, your listeners are like, what, why? 516 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:40,480 But, but you see this is how this is what this question elicits that kind of response right 517 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:47,520 there. So it's so wrong with problems. Okay. Here we go. If you were, if, well, excuse me, 518 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:53,040 where would you try? Again, ask the question, right? Where would you time travel if it were 519 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,720 possible? Where, where would you go at what, at what time period? What, where are you going to, 520 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:02,240 and if you say something like, oh, I want to be there at the, at the feeding of the 5,000 or 521 00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:05,360 like whatever. I'm like, if you give me the Bible answer, we're all going to be really 522 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:10,880 disappointed. Yeah. No, I feel that. I feel that. It's good. That's a good point. That's a good point. 523 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:17,520 You nearly like the 20s. Okay. 20s. Yeah. I feel like, because like, let's be honest, I, 524 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:23,440 you, you kind of want to be able to have civilized society. Yeah. The cute answer is like, oh, 525 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:29,920 somewhere in the mid, no, you're going to die. But like 20s is safe enough. But like, 526 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:35,760 I feel like we're, it's interesting times, you know, 100% middle of it creeping up 527 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,040 somewhere around that. And maybe between World War I and World War II would just be an 528 00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,480 interesting time period to kind of get a, get a pulse on, like go to a couple, 529 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:46,000 go to a couple of coffee shops, start talking to some locals, see what's up. I think it'd be fun. 530 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,760 That's interesting. Good. Yeah. All right. Who are your heroes in real life? 531 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:53,120 IRL. Yep. 532 00:46:53,120 --> 00:47:01,120 There's a real life. Man, there's a guy, his name is Gary. So here's the thing. I grew up, 533 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,480 you can, I don't know if you guys have been chatting with me for a little bit. I've got 534 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:10,800 somewhere in between a nerd and like California skater boy vibes, you know, kind of there's, 535 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,800 there's a little bit of an odd dichotomy there. So I'm passionate about resource creation, 536 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,400 about pornography, but I've also said, bro, probably four times in this conversation. 537 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:25,680 So I grew up in this deeply conservative Dutch reformed church context up in Canada, 538 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:31,440 you know, Calvinist to the core, baby sprinklers, men like showing emotion is 539 00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:38,000 mmm. Yeah. Heavy stoicism, 100%. You got it. You got three forms, unity, Westminster, 540 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:42,400 all the good stuff. I was born in, I was born in West Michigan. So I know all about Dutch 541 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:48,240 reform culture, 100%. Dude, let's go and also look at me like clearly. You joined the club. 542 00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:53,760 I got it. Yes. I'm quite, I've Dutch. Everything in me is fresh off the boat. So, 543 00:47:54,640 --> 00:48:00,240 but there's, but I say all that as a caricature. These are some of the church I grew up in has 544 00:48:00,240 --> 00:48:05,600 some of the most wonderful men I've ever met. And I had my punk stage where I was like, 545 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:10,640 Oregon music sucks. This is the worst. And then did my own thing. But when I came back and, 546 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:14,000 and really actually started paying attention to some of the men there and like go into Bible 547 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:19,760 study, I met these old guys who just would be honest about how they were doing, really crack 548 00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:25,040 open the Bible, love Jesus, and were surprisingly radical. They had a couple ideas. I was like, 549 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:30,720 really? And they wanted to, they wanted to invest in the people in their, in their church. They wanted 550 00:48:30,720 --> 00:48:36,960 to reach the community. And one guy in particular, Gary, he's just this old Dutch dude. And him 551 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:45,440 and I are so different. He's just conservative as the day is long. I'm not, but, but I just learned 552 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:51,200 a lot from him because he was careful and thoughtful and intentional. And then every once 553 00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:55,760 in a while would be like, no, you're the idea that you have of me right now. I'm about to blow 554 00:48:55,760 --> 00:49:00,960 your mind because I've thought a lot about this. And then I was like, wait, what? You're, you're, 555 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:06,720 you know, it was, it was great. And so, you know, 20 year old me just got the opportunity to learn 556 00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:12,240 a lot from, from a group of saints. So he's one of my heroes because that guy has done so much 557 00:49:12,240 --> 00:49:18,160 quiet work in the church for decades. And I, I need that as a young guy who's, you know, 558 00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:22,000 bouncing with ideas, want to go film and save the world. To have someone who's invested in his 559 00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:26,560 local church and has done incredible impact in one place means a lot to me. Beautiful. 560 00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:33,600 We'll ask you this. What is your current, you know, what we'll say current or you can do past 561 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:38,480 television series, television series. What's your, what's your faith? What's your go to? 562 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:50,880 I haven't watched TV in a long, long time. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Listen, I am, I am the guy 563 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:57,360 that will pick up a Systematics textbook and read it for kicks. I've embraced it. 564 00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,360 Well, hey, it's been a great evening everybody. Thanks for watching. 565 00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:06,160 Hey, ask me, like listen, ask me to fiction. I'll talk Dostoevsky for off your ear for an hour, 566 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:11,120 but like I'm not staying away from TV. All right. All right. Last, this is the last question. 567 00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:20,000 What is your most treasured possession? Good. 568 00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:30,880 So Joe Michael and I, we lived in a van for two months while we were, we were traveling. 569 00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:38,000 I love this already. We were traveling through Florida and Texas. We were working on an old 570 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:45,680 documentary and one of the things we did, one of the things we did, we had this thing we invented 571 00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:50,160 called tub hopping. I cannot believe I should not be saying this. I love it. This is what we live for. 572 00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:55,120 Here we go. So what, so tub hopping and we were younger. Okay. This was young. We're living, 573 00:50:55,120 --> 00:51:00,960 we had a go look, hit me up on Instagram at it's the Valk. You'll see there's an old 1977 Dodge 574 00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:06,480 tradesman van high top. We got it rebuilt and lived in it for, for two months. And so young, 575 00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:13,120 young lads, short on money, high on risk factor. And we, as you guys, if this wasn't only handful 576 00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:18,960 of years ago, we have a tub hopping. So we found out this beautiful thing where there's an inverse 577 00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:24,720 correlation between the level of security and the niceness of the hotel. The nicer the hotel, 578 00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:28,800 you can just stroll on in there. And so what we did is we'd chuck on a pair of bathing suits and 579 00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:35,920 stroll into hotels, chill in their hot tubs and then rate them on the way to then leave. So 580 00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:44,080 we invited ourselves into dozens of hotels across Eastern United States through Florida, 581 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:49,600 through Texas. During the travels, I bought a guitar, a crash guitar for the process. 582 00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:54,320 And during the travels, I just collected stickers from, from all over the place we went to. 583 00:51:54,320 --> 00:52:00,400 And I just stickered up this whole, this old guitar. I don't anticipate having any 584 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:06,400 period of two months in my life that was more fun than living in the van. And so I have that guitar. 585 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:11,440 It's awesome. It's all stickers. It's got all these stickers on it. And I would be destroyed if I, 586 00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:15,520 if I wreck that thing. That's amazing. It's got all these memories from all these ridiculous 587 00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:22,080 things that we did. I'm, I'm, I'm passionate about having fun. And God is, God is good. And he's 588 00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:27,680 given me some fun opportunities. I can't say that Michael will probably shoot me for telling 589 00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:31,520 that story. I can't say that I haven't done the same thing. Like we didn't necessarily rate them, 590 00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:37,760 but we've been into plays hotels that we have not been a guest at before to go swimming. So 591 00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:44,160 guest quotes. Yeah. Love it. Love it. Well, can you tell us where we can find the documentary 592 00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:48,960 where, how people can get a hold of you? Yeah, I'd be, I'd be happy to man into the light 593 00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:56,000 documentary.com. It's free. I genuinely, my, my request is of your listeners is 594 00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:01,360 if you would prayerfully consider if this documentary could be something that you could 595 00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:05,280 bring to your local church, to your pastors, to your small groups. And if you watch it, 596 00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:09,920 and if you like it, I hope it's helpful for people. So into the light documentary.com. 597 00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:13,760 You can also hit us up on Instagram and Facebook and Twitter and all this stuff, 598 00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:19,520 all the socials for at into the light documentary. If you want to stay in contact with us or yeah, 599 00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:25,520 that's all the, that's all the needs. Yeah. As, as always, we, if you head over to dudesanddadspodcast.com 600 00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:29,440 Andy will put all this good stuff, all the contacts and all that, the show notes, you can 601 00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:36,000 follow up and find the info we've talked about here. So yeah, engage there, dudesanddadspodcast.com 602 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:43,200 and on Instagram. Well done. You always said that. Like, where am I supposed to pull in there? 603 00:53:44,240 --> 00:53:50,000 And Instagram dudes and dads podcast tightly run ship around here. Hey dudes and dads podcast 604 00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:54,720 at gmail.com. If you got any show ideas, feedback, all the goodies we'd love to hear from you, 605 00:53:55,600 --> 00:54:02,080 you know, just engage our voicemail too. We have 574 213 8702. I had to get that one there too. 606 00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:07,120 Thank you so much. Please call leave a voicemail. We love it. It's good. Hey guys, we're grateful 607 00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:11,600 for each and every one of you checking us out yet again, hanging with us. We love you as our 608 00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:32,480 listening community couldn't do it without you. So until next time, friends, we wish you grace and peace.