Because that's how we think of it now.
Somebody says Jesus Christ, we just think of it as a phrase like,
you know, somebody might rattle off Alexander the Great.
Well, if you talk to me about Alexander
the Great, you might or might not mean that he was actually great, right?
You just refer to him that way because everybody else does.
Yeah. but,
you know, there's other scholars think of N.T.
Wright, and more recently, you know, Matthew Bates
really pushing us on that and saying, hey, wait a minute.
You know, it's not like Jesus was the first name and Christ was his last name.
Like, you know, Jesus is the Messiah.
I even saw it put really memorably said, somebody said,
Jesus Christ is a claim, not a name.
All right, Marlin, welcome back to the podcast.
It's, I think been a minute.
I'm not sure even the last time I interviewed you,
but you're the executive director here at Anabaptist Perspectives.
And it's not too often that, both of us get to be on, on camera,
at the same time. So this this is fun.
why don't you spend, just a brief minute
introducing the topic, today and,
and then I'm going to respond with a quote from one of our listeners.
yeah.
So thinking about as the Kingdom and Paul's gospel and thinking about that,
because
people sometimes say and we'll read some quotes here that say,
well Paul doesn't talk about the Kingdom, why is that?
Or Paul doesn't talk much about the Kingdom.
and we'll respond to some of those quotes.
but I also I keenly remember that as something, you know, in my own
thinking journey over the last 20 years or so.
So a lot of this is going to be kind of,
autobiography in the very narrow sense
of how I thought about the Kingdom and influences over the years.
Yeah. So let's, let's hop right into it.
So if people have been listening to this podcast for a while,
they'll know we do talk a fair bit about the Kingdom of God.
We've interviewed different people on that.
We'll put links in the description, some of those episodes.
But yeah, today a bit of a different angle.
And I'm going to start with a quote from someone named Benjamin,
who left this quote on one of our YouTube videos.
he says this.
“The Ebionites and the original James led group who rejected Paul
and read the original ”Hebrew Matthew”, made its way eastward,
away from the Greco-Roman pagan influence and persecution of the West.
The West preferred the teachings of Paul over Jesus and still do today.
Meanwhile, Jesus own brother and the actual 12 disciples followed
Jesus teaching.
Eusebius, Iraneus, and Jerome wrote about them.
Ask yourself, why did everyone in Asia abandon Paul?
All the churches mentioned in Revelation were in Asia.
Why did Justin never mention Paul?
Why did the original heretics like Marcion love Paul?
Why do most churches today reject Jesus
commandments and preach mostly just about Paul's teaching?
Why did Calvin and Luther prefer Paul over Jesus?” So it's a bit of a mouthful,
like it's a big chunk he's got here, and he's kind of free ranging across
church history and different, sectors of, of the church and things.
So, yeah, maybe want to start by unpacking a bit of this
and tell us, what is this concern that he's addressing?
Try to boil it down for us.
Yeah.
And when I saw that comment on YouTube,
you know this represents this kind of Paul Jesus contrast.
He puts it in a very extreme form.
but the the reason I want to address it here is
there are a lot of, a lot of people and a lot of tendencies to think that way.
even if,
most people who talk about Paul and Jesus wouldn't go as far as Benjamin does.
They're not going to accuse Paul of essentially being a heretic,
which is what this comment feels like.
but,
you know, I remember a number of years ago,
you know, having a conversation with a brother who was also a,
relative.
And, you know, he had recently discovered and gotten really enthused about
thinking seriously about the Kingdom of God,
especially as presented in the Gospels, Matthew and so on.
And he makes the comment,
you know, “We need
to put Jesus first and Paul second”.
So. Okay.
In one sense that's obvious, right?
Paul was a disciple of Jesus.
Jesus wasn't a disciple of Paul.
but why did he feel that tension?
and why have other people felt that tension?
You know, in, in so many different ways.
you know, even thinking from more of a,
you know, liberal scholarship or liberal theology
there, you might hear people talking about how,
you know, Jesus was the radical revolutionary.
And then Paul came along and tamed it down and made this,
you know, suitable for civilization or whatever.
I've definitely heard that before. Right.
So either way, it's the same sense of it.
And often it is related to ideas of the Kingdom.
Like,
you know, Jesus came promoting a Kingdom
came as Messiah.
And there's obviously
different people see very different emphases in Kingdom of God.
but then tend to see Paul's theology as something else.
And I'll say right up front, I think that's just plain wrong.
That's a large part of the thesis of this episode.
that, you know, Paul's gospel is thoroughly,
Kingdom centered.
but yeah, I want to do that by kind of exploring
some of my own journey people I've learned from things I've learned.
thinking about the Kingdom of God.
So that yeah, that does lead us to the first question.
And you've already kind of tapped this a bit, but isn't Paul's gospel.
And it's kind of funny to use those terms.
But let's go with it.
Paul's gospel actually Kingdom centered.
and doesn't Paul talk about the Kingdom of God?
but again, it does feel I've you referred to a personal conversation you had
where it seemed like they were almost a bit in contrast or in tension.
And I'm definitely noticed that too, when people talk about it,
it's like, well, Jesus talks all about the Kingdom and all that stuff.
And then Paul doesn't really,
push back on that because you're saying that that's not the case.
Walk us through it.
Well, maybe from a little bit of a sideways angle, a little bit.
You know, in the last few years,
I'm not sure how far back this was, but the idea of red letter Christianity
and in other words, taking the words of Jesus seriously.
And then you get pushback from that and say, you know,
people say, well, all letter Christianity, which obviously we should be all letter
Christianity, right? Red and black.
But again, why is there this sense that red letter
Christianity is going to get you something different than,
you know, the whole New Testament Christianity?
now, obviously
Jesus was talking before his death and resurrection in the red letters. And
so the apostles have to make sense of it
after Jesus is ascended and so on.
but why is there the sense of it getting a different lifestyle?
And sometimes it's like,
you know,
Jesus taught nonresistance on the sermon on the Mount.
Paul taught,
you know, Romans 13 and justified
the state and violence and slavery and everything else.
And so with the red letter Christianity,
sometimes there's the idea that, you know, Jesus taught something different.
Taught a different ethic than what Paul did.
but I think as a lot of people have pointed out, well,
actually go read Romans 12 and 13, read the whole thing.
Like the sermon on the Mount is still there.
The ethical content of the sermon on the Mount
shows up in Paul and the other epistles and so on.
So there's there's not this, big change.
you know, some of these other pieces we'll talk about in more detail later, but
Paul often doesn't use the word Kingdom as much,
but he uses other things that have become obscured.
What does Christ mean? Well, it means Messiah.
What does that mean?
Anointed?
Well, who was anointed? The king.
so that would be one
very quick, quick rejoinder.
So as we look at this, let's pivot it a bit to more your personal story.
So what were some of the key influences
for you on this journey of unpacking what is this Kingdom of God.
How does this work?
How does this even, resolving that bit of tension that some of us have sensed
between Jesus and Paul and, oh, you know, different emphases and all that stuff?
Yeah.
Walk us through what what were these influences across your life?
Yeah.
So let me start earlier with, you know, teenage years
and really thinking about Kingdom and Gospel of the Kingdom.
so one of those thinkers
who we had on the podcast, John D Martin,
who, you know, would speak about the Kingdom of God
over and over again with, various emphases,
but especially,
you know, the Kingdom of God is the sermon on the Mount.
the Kingdom of God as, look what happens
when you get enough people together that actually are willing to obey.
You get a different kind of community when they're obeying the King.
that was a huge influence early on, and he would contrast it
with what he called the save me gospel.
You know,
so gospel of the Kingdom
God is establishing a Kingdom which entails a group of people,
a group of subjects who live together versus
a save me gospel that says, well, actually the good news is that
I personally
can be forgiven. And,
you know, the rest is.
it's still important, but it's downstream from there.
It's not central.
And so he kept calling back that gospel of the Kingdom.
And of course, I really latched on to that because that's what
Jesus talked about
in terms of the gospel of the Kingdom.
but I've had to wrestle, you know, since with.
Okay, how
how did all these different pieces fit together in a Kingdom framework?
because at that point, I didn't have the tools for
I didn't have the tools for myself for thinking through,
you know, Paul's gospel and kingship and so on in,
in quite the same way.
you know, another,
another thinker that I read early on that really influenced my view of the Kingdom.
And this is outside of our Anabaptist circles.
but was Dallas Willard and particularly the book
The Divine Conspiracy.
It felt like I was reading that at a young time.
And it's like all of a sudden Christianity for me, switched
from a black and white picture to a full, full color picture.
So it was yeah, hugely important
in, in getting me excited about that.
But the biggest, you know, takeaway for me there related to the Kingdom
and my thinking was just
him stressing, look,
God is present.
God's power is available
because God is in control.
You can actually now in your life, you know, I can rely on that.
we can learn to be like Jesus.
We can trust
that God is going to take care of us in the middle of of whatever's going on.
and of course, yeah, Willard is a very rich thinker.
but that was the part that resonated the most for me in terms of
of kingship.
and that added another level, because Willard wasn't
just talking about he's a king, so we obey him,
although he strongly emphasized that.
But like, the king is here and is capable of taking care of us
and we can become like him.
So in that process.
So those are some of the early influences.
So John D Martin and Dallas Willard, which yes, that is,
that is quite, quite the read The Divine Conspiracy, that was a good read.
and we'll put links to, to all these things that you're referencing,
in the description. What were some others.
as you, as you're progressing along this journey, In that time frame.
Yeah.
Well, so two more two more men that we've interviewed on
on Anabaptist perspectives.
So David Bercot has been a frequent guest.
So he had the The Kingdom That Turned the World upside Down.
which is you know, a short book,
that goes through, takes a quick look at,
what kind of Kingdom did Jesus teach
and especially the emphasis there that stuck with me, I think is,
you know, Jesus is a king.
There are certain what he would call laws of the Kingdom and they are to be obeyed.
And so this is how we live.
a theme that resonates very well with Anabaptist sensibilities
and so on.
And then,
Dean Taylor again, a frequent guest.
I remember him talking about the Kingdom.
And then one phrase I remember from there.
that really builds on some of the stuff that John D Martin talked about.
was this phrase that Dean would use.
“God's people are supposed to show the world
what things would be like if only we would obey the king.”
And so there's a powerful thing there.
Right. Like, okay.
If you actually had not just 1 or 2 people but together and with those around us,
we're obeying Jesus.
It's going to result in a different kind of interaction.
And if enough people do that, you're going to get a kind of different,
different model, a portrayal of what what things could look like.
so yeah, all four of those, were hugely helpful for me,
but I don't know if those...
the things that I took from there.
I'm not saying these people didn't have answers for that.
but the things that I personally took from those emphases
didn't really address that question.
You know, well, how does this fit with all of Paul's writings and these,
these larger themes?
integration and and so on.
So yeah, you've mentioned okay.
So, Bercot, Dean Taylor again, he's we've talked to them
both actually on this podcast about some of these themes.
So people can dive into those in more detail if they want.
This is quite the package.
Are there other pieces
that were influences as well in this time in your life, that you like to mention?
Well, I think the idea, you know, through all of those
and through what I was thinking about, the very biblical idea
that kind of sums up what I took from there.
It actually comes from the Lord's Prayer, from Jesus,
where we're taught to pray,
pray to our father in heaven and to ask for his Kingdom
to come, his will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.
so that's a very important part of the idea of the Kingdom of God.
Right?
Well, God's will is done on earth as it is in heaven.
And that's what we're praying for when we ask for God's Kingdom to come.
So this is extremely important.
And so when I say I didn't have all the pieces
at that point in life, well I had that very important piece.
And I think, you know, all those thinkers I mentioned helped to really flesh out
that idea of the Kingdom as God's will being done on earth.
Yeah.
Which is tremendously important.
So we're going to pivot a little bit here.
and ask you this.
So how does the Kingdom of God or God the Father relate to Jesus as king?
specifically as we think of him in, in the line of David as the Messiah
and so forth. How do these pieces come together?
Yeah, I think that was that was a key for me.
That took a little bit, to think about.
so of course, when Jesus is on earth,
he's saying the Kingdom of God
and his identity as Messiah is getting revealed.
We see it getting revealed slowly over the course of the Gospels.
Right.
Early on, he says, people, you know, I don't tell, don't tell people.
And then eventually
he has people going, you know, you confess, I am the Christ,
I am the Messiah.
And so we do see
we do see in the Gospels this thing emerging that it's
not just the Kingdom of the Father, but this is Jesus’
Kingdom to
and I think that's an important piece that I've had to keep.
Had to keep
wrestling with and I think can explain more like, okay, so of course,
once we get to Paul, well, he's on the other side of the resurrection.
He's the other side of the Ascension.
He's very, very tuned in to Jesus is the King.
Jesus is the Messiah.
The Christ.
And so once you're actually able to start tracing that thread, you know,
through the Gospels and through Paul, once I'm able to start tracing that,
then it's like all kinds of things,
start coming together.
I mean, so even an example there of.
I guess just the process of time that,
that it took me to, to think through some of these.
I remember, you know, at our church a number of years ago,
we sang one of these grand songs about God's kingship.
I think it might have been something like, you know, the Lord is king,
coming out of the Psalms
talking about God's rule
over all of creation and nature and everything.
and I remember one point and we had a sharing time or something,
and I just, I just mentioned something there in church.
I said, okay, there's this grand, grand old hymn, the Lord is King.
Like,
okay, well, this has to connect
to what we talk about when we talk about the gospel of the Kingdom.
But I'm like, I don't I don't quite have all the
all the pieces to feel like it connects.
It feels like we're talking about two very different things.
Like I hear the gospel of the Kingdom, and I think,
well, live according to the sermon on the Mount.
And then I hear the song and I think,
yeah, God created everything.
Yeah.
And it just, it felt disconnected to me.
That's a really good point though because when we,
you know again we've done episodes on this and you talk about this in the,
you know in our sector of the Anabaptist world,
we're talking about Kingdom of God, all this stuff.
Very rarely, if ever, have I heard it tied back to the Psalms like you're doing.
which is really neat, actually.
That's a neat angle that, maybe we should hear about more often.
Yeah. This this is kind of a new thought for me.
but it's also is it's coming back to the original question
where you're tying that in with the Davidic line,
of the Messiah.
yeah. That's.
Anyway. This isn't even a question.
This is just kind of a response of, like.
That's that's an interesting thought that I have not really heard expressed
very often.
Yeah.
And I mean, the New Testament uses that all the time, uses these
pieces from the Psalms to describe
the Messiah, or these pictures describe Jesus
things that are talking about God the Father in some cases, as you know,
talk about Yahweh in the Old Testament or things that are talking about
David or a Davidic king in the Old Testament brings us
right together and says, actually, you know, this is talking about
Jesus, the divine Son.
Yeah.
So okay, so we just used the Psalms and the Messiah,
the Kingdom of God, God the father.
bring that into the New Testament then, how do we transition
from some of the things Jesus is saying in his teachings?
And then you go through the death and resurrection.
And we've already talked a little bit about the angle with Paul.
What are some other elements, other pieces
to this picture that you would like to add?
This whole thing of,
you know, the Davidic
king and Jesus being the king
and and so on.
I can describe,
you know, a particular point in time where I, I saw something in two
scriptural passages that tied that together,
tied together Jesus’ ascension and the sending of the Holy Spirit.
Now, I've seen lots of people reference that since,
but where it first really clicked with me was reading,
these two passages.
the first one was in acts two, this is Peter's
sermon, there on the day of Pentecost.
He's quoting Psalms, quoting things that David wrote, applying them to Jesus.
And then about verse 32.
You get this.
He says this Jesus God raised up,
and that we are all witnesses.
Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God,
and having received from the father the promise of the Holy Spirit,
he has poured out this, that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.
And what he's talking about there is this is Pentecost,
you know, the dramatic giving of the Holy Spirit there.
And he says, well, this is because Jesus was
exalted to the right hand of the father.
That's kingship language.
He's at the throne beside the father ruling.
This is because he's ruling
and then keep going. Ties it right to David.
He says, for David did not ascend into the heavens,
but he himself says.
The Lord said to my Lord,
sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.
So that quote from Psalm 110.
And Peter continues, let all the house of Israel therefore
know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Messiah.
This Jesus, whom you crucified.
And so it ties it to
it treats the Ascension as ascending to the throne
and saying, that's actually why the Holy Spirit can be poured out.
Because Jesus is there.
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay.
So again, that's another angle.
I don't know if I've heard very much.
so Psalms is one and tying it into the line of David,
but also you're tying in the Holy Spirit, Pentecost and so forth
as part of this Kingdom of God
package. Package, I guess that's the right word.
I mean, it kind of comes with the territory, so to speak.
Is a way of saying it, I guess you could say.
Yeah.
So I was, you know, looking at that, I latched on to that in Acts.
And then
Ephesians four
takes that same theme.
verse seven, that grace or a gift
was given to each one of us according to the measure of Messiah's gift.
Therefore it says, jumps back to quoting the Old Testament again.
When he ascended on high, he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.
In saying he ascended.
What does that mean?
But that he also descended into the lower regions of the earth?
He who descended is the one who also ascended
far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.
So, you know, Paul, there is talking about Jesus saying,
yes, there's this ascension.
he can now fill all things with his gift
because he's ascended.
And if we look earlier in Ephesians because he's at the right hand of the father,
and so he gives
the Spirit, and then because of anything he gave this, he gave the apostles,
prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers are supposed to do this.
It's supposed to result in in growth, in the body and so on.
But it's the same thing because he's a king.
He can give the gift.
The Holy Spirit is a mediator of those gifts
and thus of his role.
so right there you have a tie into,
you know, Kingdom of God and what do we mean by church.
Well,
if God's rule is coming through
gifts and these gifts are different and they’re parts of the body.
Well, God's rule is established when the different parts of the body,
with their different spiritual gifts are actually working together.
Yeah.
So I'm going to pivot
slightly here and read another quote or another comment, sorry, that we got on.
A, through YouTube on the episode we did with John D Martin?
that's the episode called The Importance of the Kingdom of God.
And this relates to some of the things you've been saying.
And I'd like to hear your response to this as well.
So this,
there wasn't a name attached to it, but this person, wrote this comment.
It's worth noting that the epistles actually say far less
about the Kingdom of God than the Gospels do.
Only eight times does the phrase even appear
between Romans and Revelation, compared to dozens in the previous books.
Does this mean that the church lost the emphasis very, very early?
Or might it be that contention about the law, great struggles with
establishing churches and keeping them established,
and the most central of all disputes over who Jesus was,
especially from the Gnostics, became central in the work that the apostles
and elders were having to do, as well as in later creeds.
The creeds were often intended to be the dividing line
between heretical baptisms and those rightfully within the church,
not a summary of unquestioned aspects of the Messiah and his work.
I suspect that the great interwoven character of the of their lives
from Acts 4 well into the early church writings, made the idea of the Kingdom
much more of a given,
much less of a question, or even an oddity, as it is for us
now with all of the departures from this manner of life in the interim,
these changes now seem to us to be what normal Christianity looks like.
so a lot going on there in that, in that comment.
but it seems like he's right.
yeah. Assuming whoever this person was is.
Putting some pretty big sweeping statements on the table,
and I'd be really curious how you would answer this based on the reflections
we've been having as we've been tracing through your own story, in this episode.
Yeah.
Well, first of all, I like where the comment ends that,
you know, the Kingdom of God was a given
and that its kingship.
and yes, it is a fair point in this, you know,
maybe caused me questions, caused other people questions as well.
You know, Kingdom of God, Kingdom of God through the gospels.
And then you don't see the language nearly
as much in the epistles.
If you're talking about that specific phrase, the Kingdom of God.
Okay.
But it is used and it's used.
Paul doesn't have any problem using the language of the Kingdom of God.
He just doesn't use it as often.
but. There's other words.
The concept there, is there in other words.
so what does it mean to say Jesus Christ?
Yeah that's a really good point.
You know, different people.
I know there's some some debates over this.
Some people say well Christ was just quickly kind of becoming a routine title.
And you know, Jesus Christ becomes a set phrase
because that's how we think of it now.
Somebody says Jesus Christ, we just think of it as a phrase like,
you know, somebody might rattle off Alexander the Great.
Well, if you talk to me about Alexander
the Great, you might or might not mean that he was actually great, right?
You just refer to him that way because everybody else does.
Yeah. but,
you know, there's other scholars think of N.T.
Wright, and more recently, you know, Matthew Bates
really pushing us on that and saying, hey, wait a minute.
You know, it's not like Jesus was the first name and Christ was his last name.
Like, you know, Jesus is the Messiah.
I even saw it put really memorably said, somebody said,
Jesus Christ is a claim, not a name.
And just for the clarity for the audience.
So Christ would essentially be the Greek form of the word Messiah.
Am I getting that right?
Or a very similar meaning?
Yes. So,
Christ is related to the Greek word for anointing.
just like
just like the Hebrew Messiah.
It's related to the idea of anointing, like.
The anointed one. The anointed one, right.
So yeah, you had multiple anointings in the Old Testament.
But when you say the Anointed One Christ,
you know, it's referring specifically to as a king.
Yeah.
You know, even David sometimes referencing Saul
when Saul was king as the Lord's anointed and then.
Okay, and then, of course,
you get the expectation of the Messiah, the anointed one.
In the line of David.
So what Jesus is.
Well even, Okay.
Just refer back to the passage that we both we just, read in acts.
Peter says,
let the house of Israel therefore know for certain
God has made him Jesus, both Lord
and Messiah and Christ.
Like he has made him the Christ, made him the king.
The ruler.
Yeah.
You know, because of his death and resurrection and really,
the ascension is showing that, as a king.
So then all of a sudden, it's totally,
you know, the epistles are saturated with Kingdom language.
Every time you see the word Christ.
That's a really good point of again, just to just hammer that again.
I can't remember who
you quoted, but someone's saying that that Jesus Christ is not just a name.
Like, that's a title, attached to who he is.
That's a really important piece.
That's a really, I guess it's we're removed enough.
I mean, we just hear it so often.
We hear it so often. We just.
We just gloss over it. Yeah, exactly.
That's a really helpful chunk, to pull out.
I'm glad you hit that. Is there? yeah.
Where else would you like to go with that?
Or if you want to continue on with other influences as well,
kind of help you come, come through this, wrestle through this.
so the one,
the one
period that really helped me was being assigned to teach
a youth Sunday school class, and I had multiple topics to cover.
I decided to use the letter to the Ephesians because I could
kind of focus on that one letter and hit most of the topics,
that I was assigned to.
And, you know, I just went through a period of just trying
to wrap my mind around obviously Ephesians has lots of long sentences,
lots of tremendously grand language and so on.
but to wrap my mind around, get my mind around some of the main tracks,
or threads going through there.
And one of those was just how thoroughly,
you know, that is about this king and this kind of king.
we already
referenced Ephesians about, you know, he ascended, gave gifts to men,
which were the gifts of the of the Holy Spirit.
earlier in Ephesians chapter one, I'm going to read a short section.
verses 20 to 23.
Breaking into a sentence.
God raised Messiah from the dead, seated him at his right
hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule
and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named
not only in this age, but also in the one to come.
And he put all things under his feet.
So, okay, a little hard to get more Kingdom focused than that.
And very clearly putting Jesus as a king, right?
Jesus with the father at his right hand.
and then pulling the
implications there that determine how he's going to talk in the rest of Ephesians.
So God put all things under Jesus’ feet,
gave Jesus as head over all things to the church,
which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
And then you can trace
through Ephesians just kind of the
the outworking of that idea, like, here's the King,
here's something about how this whole church thing works,
how it expresses the fullness or expresses God's reign
to the powers.
to those,
you know, authority and power and dominion.
You know how it works out.
Paul in Ephesians does talk about inheriting the Kingdom of God as well.
So he comfortably uses Kingdom of God language there.
Some ways, I think maybe we could do a whole episode just on that.
Like the King and his body.
Take that theme and just, you know, trace it through Ephesians.
but just to hammer that ascension
and then Ephesians chapter two, you know,
you were dead in your trespasses and sins and you were made alive.
Okay.
So that's a, if there’s any passage that is hammering like
you personally were messed up
and you need to be saved from being very messed up, right?
It’s Ephesians two
well, okay.
Right there is
Kingdom of God language too.
so remember Jesus is seated at the right hand.
So not only were we buried with Christ in baptism and raised with Christ.
It says you are seated with Christ.
So there you have another sense.
People who belong to Jesus
are actually part of reigning in the Kingdom.
And of course, the way that can work
out is through God giving the Holy Spirit to believers.
That's how we can be part of it.
But that's Kingdom.
Kingdom saturated right there.
You know, you were under the power of the devil.
Now you're seated with Christ in the heavenly places.
work it out.
And it seems like the phraseology that's being used
is fairly different from what you see in the Gospels say.
But some of that is also because Paul is writing after the ascension.
Right.
So like there's another piece here that's being emphasized.
Am I getting close to,
to some of the differences.
Or maybe that's why we miss it sometimes.
Yes. But
you know, that's
also in the Gospels and actually,
you know, another guest we've had on here, Paul Lamicela.
And just some of the ways he's talked about it and, and other people
as well helped me realize like no, the Gospels have these themes too, like,
yeah, we did a little clip from one of Paul's
episodes called The Genealogy of Jesus is Not Boring.
Well, what does the genealogy of Jesus and Matthew do?
Well, one of the things is it establishes him as the Son of David.
That's a yeah. You know, kingly.
And then you get that king language going the whole way, the whole way through.
You know, Jesus as Davidic king, son of David.
That's through the Gospels as well.
That's a really good point.
I remember when he shared that on the episode
during the interview I was like, oh wow. Yeah.
I had not thought of it quite like that, but that is an important piece.
yeah. Jesus's genealogy isn't boring.
You know, you start with Matthew chapter one.
It’s like, why is it starting with a kind of a dry, boring genealogy?
You know, it's like, oh, that's why.
and there's a lot more to it that you can find in the, in the episode.
But yeah.
Yeah, if that's boring, it's because
we don't know our Bibles well enough.
If you know your Bible, it's anything but boring.
Put it that way.
That's really good.
so maybe just a couple comments and then I have a couple comments
kind of tying a couple of loose ends.
And then I have, one quote from Romans that I want to end with
that really makes the point about the Kingdom in Paul's gospel.
and so one of those loose ends,
we talked about Ephesians, I would just flag I had the privilege of,
you know, interviewing John Coblentz we released those recently.
And one of those we titled,
you know, How God Intends Churches to Exhibit His Glory.
And so there we did get into some of those pieces from Ephesians about,
you know, what's God?
What's the King trying to do with the church?
could recommend that.
the other one I'm going to stick in here.
Don't have time to develop it in this episode, but I
can't quite bear not to mention it.
And that is,
you know, the whole idea of already not yet.
It's a phrase used by, biblical scholars or inaugurated eschatology,
if you like a slightly longer, fancier phrase.
but both of those remind us that,
okay, the Kingdom is here in the sense that okay, Jesus
has ascended to the throne, we’re seated with him.
but there's more coming, right?
There's still enemies.
Not everybody acknowledges his reign, it’s not public.
It can be hidden.
you know, rebellion still has a place.
There's still death.
you know, first Corinthians says the last enemy
that will be defeated is death, and then the Kingdom will be handed over.
there's just an important frame in all of this.
There's a part of the Kingdom that is now.
And there's more coming.
but the piece I would like to end with here.
specifically because,
you know, it addresses the Kingdom in Romans of all places.
And I would thank, Matthew Bates,
especially a book like Why the Gospel and he's written other stuff.
for pointing this out.
the opening of Romans, Paul, a servant of Messiah
Jesus called to be an apostle,
set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand
through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures
concerning his Son.
Okay, so this is the gospel of God concerning His Son concerning Jesus.
What does it say about him who is descended from David
according to the flesh?
Davidic connection
and was declared to be the Son of God in power,
according to the spirit of holiness, by his resurrection from the dead.
Jesus Messiah, our Lord.
and the part that Bates really highlighted there is that part
declared to be the Son of God in power.
And, you know, he argues that that indicates
that kind of, you know, installation as King.
Through whom we have received grace and apostleship
to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name
among all the nations.
So there you have right at the beginning of Romans,
which we often think of as, you know, locus classicus for Paul's gospel.
And he says, it's concerning Jesus, who was descended from David,
declared the Son of God in power.
And actually, my job as an apostle is to bring
about the obedience of faith among all the nations
to this king.
So a little hard to say that Paul's gospel isn't about the Kingdom.
That's really something.
I've never thought of the beginning of Romans like that before.
That's interesting. The,
Yeah.
Bringing in those connections in the context of what
Paul's trying to communicate.
I just hadn't thought of it like that.
That's really helpful.
Was there anything else you would like to
add as we bring this episode to a close?
I mean, just to say that this is a rich subject.
So I've, you know, shared some of my journey and things I'm learning.
And, you know, I think that may resonate with others
because a lot of the questions I've had, I hear other people asking and so on.
but there's a lot more there. So,
keep learning and studying and of course, experiencing
the Kingdom of God through through your own walking with Jesus.
Yeah.
Well I appreciate that and I appreciate you sharing
the journey you've had of, of learning these things.
and also to, for anybody listening or watching this or whatever.
we're going to link
all the things you mentioned down below
so they can continue that journey on their own as well.
yeah.
There's a there's a lot of good resources out there for people to, to, to dig into.
So hopefully that'll be helpful to some people who want to learn more.
I know for myself, many years ago, actually, you recommended
the Divine conspiracy to me from Dallas Willard and got a copy.
And that was a big influence on myself as well as that book by Bercot
that you mentioned as well. The Kingdom That Turned the World Upside Down.
those are very helpful in my own journey.
So yeah, I think I would echo what you said there, encouraging people
to dig into this more. There's a lot more here.
And hopefully this episode is, a bit of a inspiration.
Yeah. Yes.
There you go. A little bit of inspiration. Yeah.
Good to go dig into this more and hey, maybe go and reread,
you know, Ephesians or something and look at it through this lens
that you've been giving us.
So yeah.
well, I appreciate you coming on the podcast today and sharing this.
This has been very interesting.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to this episode with Marlin
Sommers on Paul's Gospel and the Kingdom of God.
We mentioned a previous episode with we did with John D Martin called
The Importance of the Kingdom of God,
which you can find linked down below or on the screen here on YouTube.
Thanks again for listening.
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