1 00:00:00,709 --> 00:00:01,376 Because that's how we think of it now. 2 00:00:01,376 --> 00:00:04,754 Somebody says Jesus Christ, we just think of it as a phrase like, 3 00:00:04,754 --> 00:00:08,383 you know, somebody might rattle off Alexander the Great. 4 00:00:09,259 --> 00:00:11,594 Well, if you talk to me about Alexander 5 00:00:11,594 --> 00:00:15,974 the Great, you might or might not mean that he was actually great, right? 6 00:00:15,974 --> 00:00:18,309 You just refer to him that way because everybody else does. 7 00:00:18,309 --> 00:00:20,186 Yeah. but, 8 00:00:21,312 --> 00:00:23,148 you know, there's other scholars think of N.T. 9 00:00:23,148 --> 00:00:26,151 Wright, and more recently, you know, Matthew Bates 10 00:00:26,568 --> 00:00:29,571 really pushing us on that and saying, hey, wait a minute. 11 00:00:30,488 --> 00:00:33,366 You know, it's not like Jesus was the first name and Christ was his last name. 12 00:00:33,366 --> 00:00:37,328 Like, you know, Jesus is the Messiah. 13 00:00:38,496 --> 00:00:41,666 I even saw it put really memorably said, somebody said, 14 00:00:41,666 --> 00:00:44,294 Jesus Christ is a claim, not a name. 15 00:00:49,799 --> 00:00:52,761 All right, Marlin, welcome back to the podcast. 16 00:00:52,802 --> 00:00:54,387 It's, I think been a minute. 17 00:00:54,387 --> 00:00:56,431 I'm not sure even the last time I interviewed you, 18 00:00:56,431 --> 00:00:59,434 but you're the executive director here at Anabaptist Perspectives. 19 00:00:59,559 --> 00:01:03,146 And it's not too often that, both of us get to be on, on camera, 20 00:01:03,146 --> 00:01:05,732 at the same time. So this this is fun. 21 00:01:05,732 --> 00:01:08,234 why don't you spend, just a brief minute 22 00:01:08,234 --> 00:01:11,321 introducing the topic, today and, 23 00:01:11,488 --> 00:01:14,574 and then I'm going to respond with a quote from one of our listeners. 24 00:01:15,867 --> 00:01:16,076 yeah. 25 00:01:16,076 --> 00:01:20,789 So thinking about as the Kingdom and Paul's gospel and thinking about that, 26 00:01:20,789 --> 00:01:23,166 because 27 00:01:23,166 --> 00:01:26,127 people sometimes say and we'll read some quotes here that say, 28 00:01:26,669 --> 00:01:29,005 well Paul doesn't talk about the Kingdom, why is that? 29 00:01:29,005 --> 00:01:31,424 Or Paul doesn't talk much about the Kingdom. 30 00:01:31,424 --> 00:01:34,427 and we'll respond to some of those quotes. 31 00:01:34,886 --> 00:01:39,057 but I also I keenly remember that as something, you know, in my own 32 00:01:39,849 --> 00:01:42,852 thinking journey over the last 20 years or so. 33 00:01:43,019 --> 00:01:44,604 So a lot of this is going to be kind of, 34 00:01:45,855 --> 00:01:48,149 autobiography in the very narrow sense 35 00:01:48,149 --> 00:01:51,986 of how I thought about the Kingdom and influences over the years. 36 00:01:52,362 --> 00:01:55,448 Yeah. So let's, let's hop right into it. 37 00:01:55,448 --> 00:01:58,409 So if people have been listening to this podcast for a while, 38 00:01:58,409 --> 00:02:01,204 they'll know we do talk a fair bit about the Kingdom of God. 39 00:02:01,204 --> 00:02:02,539 We've interviewed different people on that. 40 00:02:02,539 --> 00:02:05,542 We'll put links in the description, some of those episodes. 41 00:02:05,542 --> 00:02:07,210 But yeah, today a bit of a different angle. 42 00:02:07,210 --> 00:02:10,255 And I'm going to start with a quote from someone named Benjamin, 43 00:02:10,588 --> 00:02:13,550 who left this quote on one of our YouTube videos. 44 00:02:14,092 --> 00:02:15,760 he says this. 45 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,514 “The Ebionites and the original James led group who rejected Paul 46 00:02:19,514 --> 00:02:23,184 and read the original ”Hebrew Matthew”, made its way eastward, 47 00:02:23,184 --> 00:02:26,771 away from the Greco-Roman pagan influence and persecution of the West. 48 00:02:27,147 --> 00:02:30,692 The West preferred the teachings of Paul over Jesus and still do today. 49 00:02:30,984 --> 00:02:35,029 Meanwhile, Jesus own brother and the actual 12 disciples followed 50 00:02:35,029 --> 00:02:36,698 Jesus teaching. 51 00:02:36,698 --> 00:02:40,326 Eusebius, Iraneus, and Jerome wrote about them. 52 00:02:40,535 --> 00:02:43,538 Ask yourself, why did everyone in Asia abandon Paul? 53 00:02:43,955 --> 00:02:46,666 All the churches mentioned in Revelation were in Asia. 54 00:02:46,666 --> 00:02:48,418 Why did Justin never mention Paul? 55 00:02:48,418 --> 00:02:51,421 Why did the original heretics like Marcion love Paul? 56 00:02:51,671 --> 00:02:54,424 Why do most churches today reject Jesus 57 00:02:54,424 --> 00:02:57,510 commandments and preach mostly just about Paul's teaching? 58 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:02,473 Why did Calvin and Luther prefer Paul over Jesus?” So it's a bit of a mouthful, 59 00:03:02,473 --> 00:03:05,727 like it's a big chunk he's got here, and he's kind of free ranging across 60 00:03:05,894 --> 00:03:10,940 church history and different, sectors of, of the church and things. 61 00:03:10,940 --> 00:03:14,027 So, yeah, maybe want to start by unpacking a bit of this 62 00:03:14,027 --> 00:03:17,238 and tell us, what is this concern that he's addressing? 63 00:03:17,238 --> 00:03:18,281 Try to boil it down for us. 64 00:03:19,908 --> 00:03:20,158 Yeah. 65 00:03:20,158 --> 00:03:23,161 And when I saw that comment on YouTube, 66 00:03:23,453 --> 00:03:27,248 you know this represents this kind of Paul Jesus contrast. 67 00:03:27,248 --> 00:03:30,627 He puts it in a very extreme form. 68 00:03:31,544 --> 00:03:35,798 but the the reason I want to address it here is 69 00:03:35,798 --> 00:03:39,260 there are a lot of, a lot of people and a lot of tendencies to think that way. 70 00:03:39,719 --> 00:03:41,387 even if, 71 00:03:41,387 --> 00:03:46,476 most people who talk about Paul and Jesus wouldn't go as far as Benjamin does. 72 00:03:46,476 --> 00:03:49,646 They're not going to accuse Paul of essentially being a heretic, 73 00:03:49,646 --> 00:03:52,649 which is what this comment feels like. 74 00:03:53,107 --> 00:03:55,693 but, 75 00:03:55,693 --> 00:03:58,571 you know, I remember a number of years ago, 76 00:03:58,571 --> 00:04:02,033 you know, having a conversation with a brother who was also a, 77 00:04:03,034 --> 00:04:05,119 relative. 78 00:04:05,119 --> 00:04:09,666 And, you know, he had recently discovered and gotten really enthused about 79 00:04:10,250 --> 00:04:13,044 thinking seriously about the Kingdom of God, 80 00:04:13,044 --> 00:04:16,464 especially as presented in the Gospels, Matthew and so on. 81 00:04:16,464 --> 00:04:17,882 And he makes the comment, 82 00:04:19,759 --> 00:04:20,343 you know, “We need 83 00:04:20,343 --> 00:04:23,346 to put Jesus first and Paul second”. 84 00:04:24,138 --> 00:04:25,932 So. Okay. 85 00:04:25,932 --> 00:04:27,392 In one sense that's obvious, right? 86 00:04:27,392 --> 00:04:28,685 Paul was a disciple of Jesus. 87 00:04:28,685 --> 00:04:31,104 Jesus wasn't a disciple of Paul. 88 00:04:31,104 --> 00:04:34,107 but why did he feel that tension? 89 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,444 and why have other people felt that tension? 90 00:04:39,028 --> 00:04:42,031 You know, in, in so many different ways. 91 00:04:42,782 --> 00:04:46,244 you know, even thinking from more of a, 92 00:04:47,287 --> 00:04:50,290 you know, liberal scholarship or liberal theology 93 00:04:50,748 --> 00:04:53,751 there, you might hear people talking about how, 94 00:04:55,378 --> 00:04:57,880 you know, Jesus was the radical revolutionary. 95 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,759 And then Paul came along and tamed it down and made this, 96 00:05:01,759 --> 00:05:05,179 you know, suitable for civilization or whatever. 97 00:05:05,263 --> 00:05:06,848 I've definitely heard that before. Right. 98 00:05:06,848 --> 00:05:09,851 So either way, it's the same sense of it. 99 00:05:10,226 --> 00:05:12,979 And often it is related to ideas of the Kingdom. 100 00:05:12,979 --> 00:05:13,229 Like, 101 00:05:14,272 --> 00:05:17,275 you know, Jesus came promoting a Kingdom 102 00:05:17,942 --> 00:05:19,944 came as Messiah. 103 00:05:19,944 --> 00:05:22,363 And there's obviously 104 00:05:22,363 --> 00:05:25,366 different people see very different emphases in Kingdom of God. 105 00:05:25,408 --> 00:05:29,329 but then tend to see Paul's theology as something else. 106 00:05:29,329 --> 00:05:33,291 And I'll say right up front, I think that's just plain wrong. 107 00:05:33,333 --> 00:05:36,336 That's a large part of the thesis of this episode. 108 00:05:36,336 --> 00:05:40,548 that, you know, Paul's gospel is thoroughly, 109 00:05:41,090 --> 00:05:43,718 Kingdom centered. 110 00:05:43,718 --> 00:05:46,137 but yeah, I want to do that by kind of exploring 111 00:05:46,137 --> 00:05:49,640 some of my own journey people I've learned from things I've learned. 112 00:05:50,016 --> 00:05:52,268 thinking about the Kingdom of God. 113 00:05:52,268 --> 00:05:57,190 So that yeah, that does lead us to the first question. 114 00:05:57,190 --> 00:06:00,526 And you've already kind of tapped this a bit, but isn't Paul's gospel. 115 00:06:00,526 --> 00:06:02,487 And it's kind of funny to use those terms. 116 00:06:02,487 --> 00:06:03,529 But let's go with it. 117 00:06:03,529 --> 00:06:05,823 Paul's gospel actually Kingdom centered. 118 00:06:05,823 --> 00:06:08,826 and doesn't Paul talk about the Kingdom of God? 119 00:06:08,910 --> 00:06:14,540 but again, it does feel I've you referred to a personal conversation you had 120 00:06:14,540 --> 00:06:17,502 where it seemed like they were almost a bit in contrast or in tension. 121 00:06:17,627 --> 00:06:19,837 And I'm definitely noticed that too, when people talk about it, 122 00:06:19,837 --> 00:06:22,048 it's like, well, Jesus talks all about the Kingdom and all that stuff. 123 00:06:22,048 --> 00:06:23,800 And then Paul doesn't really, 124 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,178 push back on that because you're saying that that's not the case. 125 00:06:27,553 --> 00:06:29,263 Walk us through it. 126 00:06:29,263 --> 00:06:33,643 Well, maybe from a little bit of a sideways angle, a little bit. 127 00:06:36,104 --> 00:06:38,606 You know, in the last few years, 128 00:06:38,606 --> 00:06:41,609 I'm not sure how far back this was, but the idea of red letter Christianity 129 00:06:42,735 --> 00:06:46,030 and in other words, taking the words of Jesus seriously. 130 00:06:46,406 --> 00:06:49,409 And then you get pushback from that and say, you know, 131 00:06:49,450 --> 00:06:53,246 people say, well, all letter Christianity, which obviously we should be all letter 132 00:06:53,246 --> 00:06:56,249 Christianity, right? Red and black. 133 00:06:56,416 --> 00:07:00,503 But again, why is there this sense that red letter 134 00:07:00,503 --> 00:07:03,506 Christianity is going to get you something different than, 135 00:07:04,382 --> 00:07:07,385 you know, the whole New Testament Christianity? 136 00:07:07,802 --> 00:07:10,179 now, obviously 137 00:07:10,179 --> 00:07:13,391 Jesus was talking before his death and resurrection in the red letters. And 138 00:07:13,391 --> 00:07:16,936 so the apostles have to make sense of it 139 00:07:16,936 --> 00:07:19,897 after Jesus is ascended and so on. 140 00:07:19,897 --> 00:07:22,859 but why is there the sense of it getting a different lifestyle? 141 00:07:22,859 --> 00:07:23,776 And sometimes it's like, 142 00:07:24,986 --> 00:07:26,320 you know, 143 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,198 Jesus taught nonresistance on the sermon on the Mount. 144 00:07:29,198 --> 00:07:31,784 Paul taught, 145 00:07:31,784 --> 00:07:34,871 you know, Romans 13 and justified 146 00:07:35,413 --> 00:07:38,666 the state and violence and slavery and everything else. 147 00:07:38,666 --> 00:07:41,669 And so with the red letter Christianity, 148 00:07:42,044 --> 00:07:45,465 sometimes there's the idea that, you know, Jesus taught something different. 149 00:07:45,465 --> 00:07:48,468 Taught a different ethic than what Paul did. 150 00:07:49,469 --> 00:07:51,721 but I think as a lot of people have pointed out, well, 151 00:07:51,721 --> 00:07:54,390 actually go read Romans 12 and 13, read the whole thing. 152 00:07:54,390 --> 00:07:57,393 Like the sermon on the Mount is still there. 153 00:07:57,518 --> 00:07:59,854 The ethical content of the sermon on the Mount 154 00:07:59,854 --> 00:08:02,315 shows up in Paul and the other epistles and so on. 155 00:08:02,315 --> 00:08:06,486 So there's there's not this, big change. 156 00:08:07,278 --> 00:08:10,239 you know, some of these other pieces we'll talk about in more detail later, but 157 00:08:11,824 --> 00:08:14,827 Paul often doesn't use the word Kingdom as much, 158 00:08:14,952 --> 00:08:17,830 but he uses other things that have become obscured. 159 00:08:17,830 --> 00:08:19,916 What does Christ mean? Well, it means Messiah. 160 00:08:19,916 --> 00:08:20,374 What does that mean? 161 00:08:20,374 --> 00:08:20,875 Anointed? 162 00:08:20,875 --> 00:08:23,878 Well, who was anointed? The king. 163 00:08:24,128 --> 00:08:27,131 so that would be one 164 00:08:27,632 --> 00:08:30,635 very quick, quick rejoinder. 165 00:08:30,635 --> 00:08:36,349 So as we look at this, let's pivot it a bit to more your personal story. 166 00:08:36,349 --> 00:08:38,226 So what were some of the key influences 167 00:08:38,226 --> 00:08:42,772 for you on this journey of unpacking what is this Kingdom of God. 168 00:08:42,772 --> 00:08:43,523 How does this work? 169 00:08:43,523 --> 00:08:49,278 How does this even, resolving that bit of tension that some of us have sensed 170 00:08:49,403 --> 00:08:52,698 between Jesus and Paul and, oh, you know, different emphases and all that stuff? 171 00:08:53,324 --> 00:08:53,574 Yeah. 172 00:08:53,574 --> 00:08:56,244 Walk us through what what were these influences across your life? 173 00:08:56,244 --> 00:08:56,410 Yeah. 174 00:08:56,410 --> 00:08:59,539 So let me start earlier with, you know, teenage years 175 00:08:59,539 --> 00:09:03,042 and really thinking about Kingdom and Gospel of the Kingdom. 176 00:09:03,501 --> 00:09:06,170 so one of those thinkers 177 00:09:06,170 --> 00:09:09,298 who we had on the podcast, John D Martin, 178 00:09:10,132 --> 00:09:13,427 who, you know, would speak about the Kingdom of God 179 00:09:13,427 --> 00:09:17,431 over and over again with, various emphases, 180 00:09:18,516 --> 00:09:20,226 but especially, 181 00:09:20,226 --> 00:09:23,229 you know, the Kingdom of God is the sermon on the Mount. 182 00:09:23,396 --> 00:09:26,566 the Kingdom of God as, look what happens 183 00:09:26,566 --> 00:09:30,861 when you get enough people together that actually are willing to obey. 184 00:09:30,903 --> 00:09:34,073 You get a different kind of community when they're obeying the King. 185 00:09:34,949 --> 00:09:37,952 that was a huge influence early on, and he would contrast it 186 00:09:37,952 --> 00:09:41,789 with what he called the save me gospel. 187 00:09:42,248 --> 00:09:44,709 You know, 188 00:09:44,709 --> 00:09:46,502 so gospel of the Kingdom 189 00:09:46,502 --> 00:09:50,006 God is establishing a Kingdom which entails a group of people, 190 00:09:50,006 --> 00:09:53,009 a group of subjects who live together versus 191 00:09:54,010 --> 00:09:57,263 a save me gospel that says, well, actually the good news is that 192 00:09:58,889 --> 00:10:01,142 I personally 193 00:10:01,142 --> 00:10:03,978 can be forgiven. And, 194 00:10:03,978 --> 00:10:06,814 you know, the rest is. 195 00:10:06,814 --> 00:10:10,109 it's still important, but it's downstream from there. 196 00:10:10,109 --> 00:10:10,901 It's not central. 197 00:10:10,901 --> 00:10:13,904 And so he kept calling back that gospel of the Kingdom. 198 00:10:14,113 --> 00:10:16,365 And of course, I really latched on to that because that's what 199 00:10:17,408 --> 00:10:19,160 Jesus talked about 200 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,163 in terms of the gospel of the Kingdom. 201 00:10:23,956 --> 00:10:26,083 but I've had to wrestle, you know, since with. 202 00:10:26,083 --> 00:10:27,877 Okay, how 203 00:10:27,877 --> 00:10:30,880 how did all these different pieces fit together in a Kingdom framework? 204 00:10:31,797 --> 00:10:34,800 because at that point, I didn't have the tools for 205 00:10:36,010 --> 00:10:39,180 I didn't have the tools for myself for thinking through, 206 00:10:39,847 --> 00:10:43,309 you know, Paul's gospel and kingship and so on in, 207 00:10:44,310 --> 00:10:46,354 in quite the same way. 208 00:10:46,354 --> 00:10:49,357 you know, another, 209 00:10:50,691 --> 00:10:54,570 another thinker that I read early on that really influenced my view of the Kingdom. 210 00:10:55,655 --> 00:10:58,449 And this is outside of our Anabaptist circles. 211 00:10:58,449 --> 00:11:01,494 but was Dallas Willard and particularly the book 212 00:11:01,994 --> 00:11:04,747 The Divine Conspiracy. 213 00:11:04,747 --> 00:11:06,457 It felt like I was reading that at a young time. 214 00:11:06,457 --> 00:11:09,460 And it's like all of a sudden Christianity for me, switched 215 00:11:09,460 --> 00:11:13,130 from a black and white picture to a full, full color picture. 216 00:11:13,589 --> 00:11:16,342 So it was yeah, hugely important 217 00:11:16,342 --> 00:11:19,345 in, in getting me excited about that. 218 00:11:19,512 --> 00:11:23,057 But the biggest, you know, takeaway for me there related to the Kingdom 219 00:11:23,057 --> 00:11:24,350 and my thinking was just 220 00:11:25,893 --> 00:11:28,896 him stressing, look, 221 00:11:28,896 --> 00:11:29,855 God is present. 222 00:11:29,855 --> 00:11:32,858 God's power is available 223 00:11:32,983 --> 00:11:35,027 because God is in control. 224 00:11:35,027 --> 00:11:38,698 You can actually now in your life, you know, I can rely on that. 225 00:11:39,448 --> 00:11:41,283 we can learn to be like Jesus. 226 00:11:41,283 --> 00:11:41,909 We can trust 227 00:11:41,909 --> 00:11:45,496 that God is going to take care of us in the middle of of whatever's going on. 228 00:11:46,914 --> 00:11:49,667 and of course, yeah, Willard is a very rich thinker. 229 00:11:49,667 --> 00:11:54,296 but that was the part that resonated the most for me in terms of 230 00:11:55,506 --> 00:11:57,925 of kingship. 231 00:11:57,925 --> 00:12:00,386 and that added another level, because Willard wasn't 232 00:12:00,386 --> 00:12:03,389 just talking about he's a king, so we obey him, 233 00:12:03,889 --> 00:12:05,683 although he strongly emphasized that. 234 00:12:05,683 --> 00:12:10,062 But like, the king is here and is capable of taking care of us 235 00:12:11,522 --> 00:12:14,525 and we can become like him. 236 00:12:15,067 --> 00:12:16,444 So in that process. 237 00:12:16,444 --> 00:12:17,987 So those are some of the early influences. 238 00:12:17,987 --> 00:12:22,783 So John D Martin and Dallas Willard, which yes, that is, 239 00:12:22,783 --> 00:12:26,620 that is quite, quite the read The Divine Conspiracy, that was a good read. 240 00:12:26,662 --> 00:12:29,665 and we'll put links to, to all these things that you're referencing, 241 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,918 in the description. What were some others. 242 00:12:32,918 --> 00:12:36,130 as you, as you're progressing along this journey, In that time frame. 243 00:12:36,338 --> 00:12:37,006 Yeah. 244 00:12:37,006 --> 00:12:40,551 Well, so two more two more men that we've interviewed on 245 00:12:41,218 --> 00:12:42,678 on Anabaptist perspectives. 246 00:12:43,929 --> 00:12:48,851 So David Bercot has been a frequent guest. 247 00:12:49,059 --> 00:12:52,354 So he had the The Kingdom That Turned the World upside Down. 248 00:12:53,189 --> 00:12:56,650 which is you know, a short book, 249 00:12:56,650 --> 00:12:59,653 that goes through, takes a quick look at, 250 00:13:00,446 --> 00:13:02,156 what kind of Kingdom did Jesus teach 251 00:13:02,156 --> 00:13:02,865 what kind of Kingdom did Jesus teach 252 00:13:02,865 --> 00:13:06,368 and especially the emphasis there that stuck with me, I think is, 253 00:13:07,411 --> 00:13:09,455 you know, Jesus is a king. 254 00:13:09,455 --> 00:13:14,877 There are certain what he would call laws of the Kingdom and they are to be obeyed. 255 00:13:14,877 --> 00:13:17,713 And so this is how we live. 256 00:13:17,713 --> 00:13:20,966 a theme that resonates very well with Anabaptist sensibilities 257 00:13:22,051 --> 00:13:24,261 and so on. 258 00:13:24,261 --> 00:13:26,722 And then, 259 00:13:26,722 --> 00:13:29,850 Dean Taylor again, a frequent guest. 260 00:13:30,935 --> 00:13:32,436 I remember him talking about the Kingdom. 261 00:13:32,436 --> 00:13:35,439 And then one phrase I remember from there. 262 00:13:35,981 --> 00:13:38,818 that really builds on some of the stuff that John D Martin talked about. 263 00:13:38,818 --> 00:13:41,237 was this phrase that Dean would use. 264 00:13:42,363 --> 00:13:44,532 “God's people are supposed to show the world 265 00:13:44,532 --> 00:13:47,535 what things would be like if only we would obey the king.” 266 00:13:48,744 --> 00:13:51,121 And so there's a powerful thing there. 267 00:13:51,121 --> 00:13:52,790 Right. Like, okay. 268 00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:57,837 If you actually had not just 1 or 2 people but together and with those around us, 269 00:13:59,171 --> 00:14:01,966 we're obeying Jesus. 270 00:14:01,966 --> 00:14:04,969 It's going to result in a different kind of interaction. 271 00:14:05,469 --> 00:14:08,597 And if enough people do that, you're going to get a kind of different, 272 00:14:09,056 --> 00:14:12,685 different model, a portrayal of what what things could look like. 273 00:14:13,644 --> 00:14:17,273 so yeah, all four of those, were hugely helpful for me, 274 00:14:18,274 --> 00:14:21,443 but I don't know if those... 275 00:14:22,444 --> 00:14:23,487 the things that I took from there. 276 00:14:23,487 --> 00:14:25,906 I'm not saying these people didn't have answers for that. 277 00:14:25,906 --> 00:14:29,368 but the things that I personally took from those emphases 278 00:14:30,035 --> 00:14:32,162 didn't really address that question. 279 00:14:32,162 --> 00:14:35,499 You know, well, how does this fit with all of Paul's writings and these, 280 00:14:36,041 --> 00:14:37,251 these larger themes? 281 00:14:37,251 --> 00:14:39,670 integration and and so on. 282 00:14:41,380 --> 00:14:42,798 So yeah, you've mentioned okay. 283 00:14:42,798 --> 00:14:46,760 So, Bercot, Dean Taylor again, he's we've talked to them 284 00:14:46,886 --> 00:14:49,430 both actually on this podcast about some of these themes. 285 00:14:49,430 --> 00:14:52,850 So people can dive into those in more detail if they want. 286 00:14:53,976 --> 00:14:55,477 This is quite the package. 287 00:14:55,477 --> 00:14:56,562 Are there other pieces 288 00:14:56,562 --> 00:15:01,400 that were influences as well in this time in your life, that you like to mention? 289 00:15:01,650 --> 00:15:05,446 Well, I think the idea, you know, through all of those 290 00:15:05,446 --> 00:15:08,699 and through what I was thinking about, the very biblical idea 291 00:15:08,699 --> 00:15:11,702 that kind of sums up what I took from there. 292 00:15:11,744 --> 00:15:14,538 It actually comes from the Lord's Prayer, from Jesus, 293 00:15:14,538 --> 00:15:17,541 where we're taught to pray, 294 00:15:17,541 --> 00:15:21,045 pray to our father in heaven and to ask for his Kingdom 295 00:15:21,045 --> 00:15:24,465 to come, his will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. 296 00:15:25,674 --> 00:15:28,302 so that's a very important part of the idea of the Kingdom of God. 297 00:15:28,302 --> 00:15:29,219 Right? 298 00:15:29,219 --> 00:15:32,222 Well, God's will is done on earth as it is in heaven. 299 00:15:32,848 --> 00:15:35,851 And that's what we're praying for when we ask for God's Kingdom to come. 300 00:15:36,644 --> 00:15:38,979 So this is extremely important. 301 00:15:38,979 --> 00:15:40,898 And so when I say I didn't have all the pieces 302 00:15:40,898 --> 00:15:43,859 at that point in life, well I had that very important piece. 303 00:15:44,568 --> 00:15:47,738 And I think, you know, all those thinkers I mentioned helped to really flesh out 304 00:15:47,738 --> 00:15:52,117 that idea of the Kingdom as God's will being done on earth. 305 00:15:53,285 --> 00:15:53,827 Yeah. 306 00:15:53,827 --> 00:15:56,830 Which is tremendously important. 307 00:15:58,040 --> 00:15:59,708 So we're going to pivot a little bit here. 308 00:15:59,708 --> 00:16:01,961 and ask you this. 309 00:16:01,961 --> 00:16:06,382 So how does the Kingdom of God or God the Father relate to Jesus as king? 310 00:16:06,590 --> 00:16:11,095 specifically as we think of him in, in the line of David as the Messiah 311 00:16:11,095 --> 00:16:13,347 and so forth. How do these pieces come together? 312 00:16:14,473 --> 00:16:17,434 Yeah, I think that was that was a key for me. 313 00:16:17,434 --> 00:16:20,437 That took a little bit, to think about. 314 00:16:20,980 --> 00:16:23,983 so of course, when Jesus is on earth, 315 00:16:24,274 --> 00:16:27,277 he's saying the Kingdom of God 316 00:16:27,653 --> 00:16:30,656 and his identity as Messiah is getting revealed. 317 00:16:31,198 --> 00:16:34,201 We see it getting revealed slowly over the course of the Gospels. 318 00:16:34,410 --> 00:16:34,743 Right. 319 00:16:34,743 --> 00:16:38,914 Early on, he says, people, you know, I don't tell, don't tell people. 320 00:16:38,914 --> 00:16:41,875 And then eventually 321 00:16:42,334 --> 00:16:45,295 he has people going, you know, you confess, I am the Christ, 322 00:16:45,295 --> 00:16:47,256 I am the Messiah. 323 00:16:47,256 --> 00:16:49,717 And so we do see 324 00:16:49,717 --> 00:16:53,053 we do see in the Gospels this thing emerging that it's 325 00:16:53,053 --> 00:16:56,140 not just the Kingdom of the Father, but this is Jesus’ 326 00:16:56,140 --> 00:16:59,143 Kingdom to 327 00:17:00,019 --> 00:17:03,188 and I think that's an important piece that I've had to keep. 328 00:17:05,566 --> 00:17:06,108 Had to keep 329 00:17:06,108 --> 00:17:09,445 wrestling with and I think can explain more like, okay, so of course, 330 00:17:09,445 --> 00:17:12,906 once we get to Paul, well, he's on the other side of the resurrection. 331 00:17:12,906 --> 00:17:14,825 He's the other side of the Ascension. 332 00:17:14,825 --> 00:17:19,747 He's very, very tuned in to Jesus is the King. 333 00:17:20,831 --> 00:17:22,541 Jesus is the Messiah. 334 00:17:22,541 --> 00:17:24,626 The Christ. 335 00:17:24,626 --> 00:17:28,881 And so once you're actually able to start tracing that thread, you know, 336 00:17:28,881 --> 00:17:31,884 through the Gospels and through Paul, once I'm able to start tracing that, 337 00:17:32,009 --> 00:17:34,803 then it's like all kinds of things, 338 00:17:34,803 --> 00:17:37,765 start coming together. 339 00:17:39,683 --> 00:17:42,686 I mean, so even an example there of. 340 00:17:44,521 --> 00:17:47,524 I guess just the process of time that, 341 00:17:47,649 --> 00:17:51,403 that it took me to, to think through some of these. 342 00:17:51,445 --> 00:17:54,448 I remember, you know, at our church a number of years ago, 343 00:17:54,490 --> 00:17:59,244 we sang one of these grand songs about God's kingship. 344 00:17:59,286 --> 00:18:02,289 I think it might have been something like, you know, the Lord is king, 345 00:18:02,706 --> 00:18:04,291 coming out of the Psalms 346 00:18:05,250 --> 00:18:06,960 talking about God's rule 347 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,963 over all of creation and nature and everything. 348 00:18:10,798 --> 00:18:14,760 and I remember one point and we had a sharing time or something, 349 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,263 and I just, I just mentioned something there in church. 350 00:18:18,263 --> 00:18:23,185 I said, okay, there's this grand, grand old hymn, the Lord is King. 351 00:18:23,185 --> 00:18:24,103 Like, 352 00:18:24,103 --> 00:18:25,437 okay, well, this has to connect 353 00:18:25,437 --> 00:18:28,440 to what we talk about when we talk about the gospel of the Kingdom. 354 00:18:29,274 --> 00:18:32,277 But I'm like, I don't I don't quite have all the 355 00:18:33,821 --> 00:18:36,115 all the pieces to feel like it connects. 356 00:18:36,115 --> 00:18:37,866 It feels like we're talking about two very different things. 357 00:18:37,866 --> 00:18:40,869 Like I hear the gospel of the Kingdom, and I think, 358 00:18:41,703 --> 00:18:44,456 well, live according to the sermon on the Mount. 359 00:18:44,456 --> 00:18:47,167 And then I hear the song and I think, 360 00:18:48,418 --> 00:18:51,421 yeah, God created everything. 361 00:18:51,588 --> 00:18:52,381 Yeah. 362 00:18:52,381 --> 00:18:54,341 And it just, it felt disconnected to me. 363 00:18:54,341 --> 00:18:57,302 That's a really good point though because when we, 364 00:18:57,302 --> 00:19:00,430 you know again we've done episodes on this and you talk about this in the, 365 00:19:00,430 --> 00:19:03,684 you know in our sector of the Anabaptist world, 366 00:19:03,684 --> 00:19:06,395 we're talking about Kingdom of God, all this stuff. 367 00:19:06,395 --> 00:19:10,524 Very rarely, if ever, have I heard it tied back to the Psalms like you're doing. 368 00:19:10,732 --> 00:19:12,317 which is really neat, actually. 369 00:19:12,317 --> 00:19:16,071 That's a neat angle that, maybe we should hear about more often. 370 00:19:16,071 --> 00:19:18,490 Yeah. This this is kind of a new thought for me. 371 00:19:18,490 --> 00:19:22,828 but it's also is it's coming back to the original question 372 00:19:22,828 --> 00:19:25,956 where you're tying that in with the Davidic line, 373 00:19:25,998 --> 00:19:29,001 of the Messiah. 374 00:19:29,418 --> 00:19:30,961 yeah. That's. 375 00:19:30,961 --> 00:19:32,337 Anyway. This isn't even a question. 376 00:19:32,337 --> 00:19:34,047 This is just kind of a response of, like. 377 00:19:34,047 --> 00:19:37,885 That's that's an interesting thought that I have not really heard expressed 378 00:19:37,885 --> 00:19:38,510 very often. 379 00:19:39,970 --> 00:19:40,596 Yeah. 380 00:19:40,596 --> 00:19:43,724 And I mean, the New Testament uses that all the time, uses these 381 00:19:44,725 --> 00:19:47,728 pieces from the Psalms to describe 382 00:19:48,270 --> 00:19:51,231 the Messiah, or these pictures describe Jesus 383 00:19:52,107 --> 00:19:56,069 things that are talking about God the Father in some cases, as you know, 384 00:19:56,069 --> 00:20:00,449 talk about Yahweh in the Old Testament or things that are talking about 385 00:20:01,742 --> 00:20:04,411 David or a Davidic king in the Old Testament brings us 386 00:20:04,411 --> 00:20:07,414 right together and says, actually, you know, this is talking about 387 00:20:08,165 --> 00:20:11,168 Jesus, the divine Son. 388 00:20:11,460 --> 00:20:11,919 Yeah. 389 00:20:11,919 --> 00:20:15,631 So okay, so we just used the Psalms and the Messiah, 390 00:20:15,631 --> 00:20:17,507 the Kingdom of God, God the father. 391 00:20:17,507 --> 00:20:21,011 bring that into the New Testament then, how do we transition 392 00:20:21,011 --> 00:20:25,140 from some of the things Jesus is saying in his teachings? 393 00:20:25,140 --> 00:20:26,683 And then you go through the death and resurrection. 394 00:20:26,683 --> 00:20:29,311 And we've already talked a little bit about the angle with Paul. 395 00:20:29,311 --> 00:20:31,021 What are some other elements, other pieces 396 00:20:31,021 --> 00:20:33,190 to this picture that you would like to add? 397 00:20:33,190 --> 00:20:34,399 This whole thing of, 398 00:20:35,567 --> 00:20:36,568 you know, the Davidic 399 00:20:36,568 --> 00:20:40,697 king and Jesus being the king 400 00:20:40,697 --> 00:20:42,991 and and so on. 401 00:20:42,991 --> 00:20:43,700 and and so on. 402 00:20:43,867 --> 00:20:46,536 I can describe, 403 00:20:46,536 --> 00:20:49,456 you know, a particular point in time where I, I saw something in two 404 00:20:49,456 --> 00:20:52,459 scriptural passages that tied that together, 405 00:20:53,418 --> 00:20:56,421 tied together Jesus’ ascension and the sending of the Holy Spirit. 406 00:20:57,005 --> 00:21:00,008 Now, I've seen lots of people reference that since, 407 00:21:00,175 --> 00:21:03,971 but where it first really clicked with me was reading, 408 00:21:04,930 --> 00:21:07,516 these two passages. 409 00:21:07,516 --> 00:21:09,518 the first one was in acts two, this is Peter's 410 00:21:09,518 --> 00:21:12,521 sermon, there on the day of Pentecost. 411 00:21:13,063 --> 00:21:17,567 He's quoting Psalms, quoting things that David wrote, applying them to Jesus. 412 00:21:18,277 --> 00:21:20,445 And then about verse 32. 413 00:21:20,445 --> 00:21:21,321 You get this. 414 00:21:21,321 --> 00:21:24,908 He says this Jesus God raised up, 415 00:21:25,117 --> 00:21:28,120 and that we are all witnesses. 416 00:21:28,328 --> 00:21:31,373 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, 417 00:21:32,082 --> 00:21:35,043 and having received from the father the promise of the Holy Spirit, 418 00:21:35,877 --> 00:21:39,423 he has poured out this, that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. 419 00:21:40,799 --> 00:21:43,802 And what he's talking about there is this is Pentecost, 420 00:21:44,094 --> 00:21:47,097 you know, the dramatic giving of the Holy Spirit there. 421 00:21:47,639 --> 00:21:50,642 And he says, well, this is because Jesus was 422 00:21:51,059 --> 00:21:52,602 exalted to the right hand of the father. 423 00:21:52,602 --> 00:21:54,521 That's kingship language. 424 00:21:54,521 --> 00:21:57,482 He's at the throne beside the father ruling. 425 00:21:57,482 --> 00:21:59,818 This is because he's ruling 426 00:21:59,818 --> 00:22:02,195 and then keep going. Ties it right to David. 427 00:22:02,195 --> 00:22:05,824 He says, for David did not ascend into the heavens, 428 00:22:06,908 --> 00:22:09,911 but he himself says. 429 00:22:10,245 --> 00:22:11,580 The Lord said to my Lord, 430 00:22:11,580 --> 00:22:14,583 sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. 431 00:22:15,042 --> 00:22:18,045 So that quote from Psalm 110. 432 00:22:18,086 --> 00:22:21,965 And Peter continues, let all the house of Israel therefore 433 00:22:21,965 --> 00:22:27,179 know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Messiah. 434 00:22:27,179 --> 00:22:30,182 This Jesus, whom you crucified. 435 00:22:30,724 --> 00:22:32,934 And so it ties it to 436 00:22:34,603 --> 00:22:37,606 it treats the Ascension as ascending to the throne 437 00:22:38,523 --> 00:22:42,569 and saying, that's actually why the Holy Spirit can be poured out. 438 00:22:42,778 --> 00:22:44,696 Because Jesus is there. 439 00:22:44,696 --> 00:22:46,198 Yeah. Yeah. 440 00:22:46,198 --> 00:22:46,698 Okay. 441 00:22:46,698 --> 00:22:48,700 So again, that's another angle. 442 00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:50,327 I don't know if I've heard very much. 443 00:22:50,327 --> 00:22:53,789 so Psalms is one and tying it into the line of David, 444 00:22:54,039 --> 00:22:57,834 but also you're tying in the Holy Spirit, Pentecost and so forth 445 00:22:57,834 --> 00:23:00,837 as part of this Kingdom of God 446 00:23:00,837 --> 00:23:02,005 package. Package, I guess that's the right word. 447 00:23:02,005 --> 00:23:03,924 I mean, it kind of comes with the territory, so to speak. 448 00:23:03,924 --> 00:23:06,927 Is a way of saying it, I guess you could say. 449 00:23:06,927 --> 00:23:07,427 Yeah. 450 00:23:07,427 --> 00:23:10,430 So I was, you know, looking at that, I latched on to that in Acts. 451 00:23:11,723 --> 00:23:13,809 And then 452 00:23:13,809 --> 00:23:16,395 Ephesians four 453 00:23:16,395 --> 00:23:17,938 takes that same theme. 454 00:23:19,064 --> 00:23:22,609 verse seven, that grace or a gift 455 00:23:22,609 --> 00:23:26,571 was given to each one of us according to the measure of Messiah's gift. 456 00:23:27,489 --> 00:23:31,201 Therefore it says, jumps back to quoting the Old Testament again. 457 00:23:31,660 --> 00:23:34,663 When he ascended on high, he led a host of captives, 458 00:23:35,247 --> 00:23:38,250 and he gave gifts to men. 459 00:23:38,333 --> 00:23:40,794 In saying he ascended. 460 00:23:40,794 --> 00:23:41,586 What does that mean? 461 00:23:41,586 --> 00:23:44,589 But that he also descended into the lower regions of the earth? 462 00:23:45,215 --> 00:23:48,176 He who descended is the one who also ascended 463 00:23:48,176 --> 00:23:51,179 far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things. 464 00:23:51,972 --> 00:23:55,434 So, you know, Paul, there is talking about Jesus saying, 465 00:23:55,851 --> 00:23:58,854 yes, there's this ascension. 466 00:23:59,688 --> 00:24:01,773 he can now fill all things with his gift 467 00:24:01,773 --> 00:24:03,650 because he's ascended. 468 00:24:03,650 --> 00:24:07,028 And if we look earlier in Ephesians because he's at the right hand of the father, 469 00:24:08,738 --> 00:24:09,406 and so he gives 470 00:24:09,406 --> 00:24:13,577 the Spirit, and then because of anything he gave this, he gave the apostles, 471 00:24:13,577 --> 00:24:16,580 prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers are supposed to do this. 472 00:24:16,621 --> 00:24:21,585 It's supposed to result in in growth, in the body and so on. 473 00:24:22,169 --> 00:24:24,337 But it's the same thing because he's a king. 474 00:24:24,337 --> 00:24:25,964 He can give the gift. 475 00:24:25,964 --> 00:24:29,217 The Holy Spirit is a mediator of those gifts 476 00:24:30,510 --> 00:24:32,929 and thus of his role. 477 00:24:32,929 --> 00:24:35,765 so right there you have a tie into, 478 00:24:35,765 --> 00:24:39,603 you know, Kingdom of God and what do we mean by church. 479 00:24:39,603 --> 00:24:41,563 Well, 480 00:24:41,563 --> 00:24:44,566 if God's rule is coming through 481 00:24:44,941 --> 00:24:47,944 gifts and these gifts are different and they’re parts of the body. 482 00:24:48,612 --> 00:24:52,657 Well, God's rule is established when the different parts of the body, 483 00:24:52,657 --> 00:24:55,619 with their different spiritual gifts are actually working together. 484 00:24:56,453 --> 00:24:56,870 Yeah. 485 00:24:58,371 --> 00:25:00,081 So I'm going to pivot 486 00:25:00,081 --> 00:25:04,336 slightly here and read another quote or another comment, sorry, that we got on. 487 00:25:04,336 --> 00:25:08,548 A, through YouTube on the episode we did with John D Martin? 488 00:25:08,548 --> 00:25:11,968 that's the episode called The Importance of the Kingdom of God. 489 00:25:12,802 --> 00:25:15,555 And this relates to some of the things you've been saying. 490 00:25:15,555 --> 00:25:17,766 And I'd like to hear your response to this as well. 491 00:25:17,766 --> 00:25:18,808 So this, 492 00:25:18,808 --> 00:25:21,811 there wasn't a name attached to it, but this person, wrote this comment. 493 00:25:22,437 --> 00:25:25,065 It's worth noting that the epistles actually say far less 494 00:25:25,065 --> 00:25:27,192 about the Kingdom of God than the Gospels do. 495 00:25:27,192 --> 00:25:29,319 Only eight times does the phrase even appear 496 00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:32,948 between Romans and Revelation, compared to dozens in the previous books. 497 00:25:33,323 --> 00:25:36,535 Does this mean that the church lost the emphasis very, very early? 498 00:25:36,701 --> 00:25:40,497 Or might it be that contention about the law, great struggles with 499 00:25:40,914 --> 00:25:42,791 establishing churches and keeping them established, 500 00:25:42,791 --> 00:25:47,128 and the most central of all disputes over who Jesus was, 501 00:25:47,128 --> 00:25:50,674 especially from the Gnostics, became central in the work that the apostles 502 00:25:50,674 --> 00:25:53,677 and elders were having to do, as well as in later creeds. 503 00:25:54,511 --> 00:25:57,180 The creeds were often intended to be the dividing line 504 00:25:57,180 --> 00:26:01,017 between heretical baptisms and those rightfully within the church, 505 00:26:01,017 --> 00:26:04,145 not a summary of unquestioned aspects of the Messiah and his work. 506 00:26:04,563 --> 00:26:08,400 I suspect that the great interwoven character of the of their lives 507 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,362 from Acts 4 well into the early church writings, made the idea of the Kingdom 508 00:26:12,362 --> 00:26:13,738 much more of a given, 509 00:26:13,738 --> 00:26:17,242 much less of a question, or even an oddity, as it is for us 510 00:26:17,242 --> 00:26:21,162 now with all of the departures from this manner of life in the interim, 511 00:26:21,496 --> 00:26:25,709 these changes now seem to us to be what normal Christianity looks like. 512 00:26:26,459 --> 00:26:29,379 so a lot going on there in that, in that comment. 513 00:26:29,379 --> 00:26:32,299 but it seems like he's right. 514 00:26:32,299 --> 00:26:34,384 yeah. Assuming whoever this person was is. 515 00:26:36,136 --> 00:26:38,680 Putting some pretty big sweeping statements on the table, 516 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,226 and I'd be really curious how you would answer this based on the reflections 517 00:26:43,226 --> 00:26:48,315 we've been having as we've been tracing through your own story, in this episode. 518 00:26:48,398 --> 00:26:48,732 Yeah. 519 00:26:48,732 --> 00:26:51,901 Well, first of all, I like where the comment ends that, 520 00:26:52,235 --> 00:26:55,238 you know, the Kingdom of God was a given 521 00:26:56,072 --> 00:26:59,075 and that its kingship. 522 00:26:59,534 --> 00:27:01,953 and yes, it is a fair point in this, you know, 523 00:27:01,953 --> 00:27:04,956 maybe caused me questions, caused other people questions as well. 524 00:27:05,707 --> 00:27:08,460 You know, Kingdom of God, Kingdom of God through the gospels. 525 00:27:08,460 --> 00:27:11,379 And then you don't see the language nearly 526 00:27:11,379 --> 00:27:14,341 as much in the epistles. 527 00:27:14,382 --> 00:27:18,219 If you're talking about that specific phrase, the Kingdom of God. 528 00:27:19,012 --> 00:27:19,429 Okay. 529 00:27:19,429 --> 00:27:22,349 But it is used and it's used. 530 00:27:22,349 --> 00:27:25,018 Paul doesn't have any problem using the language of the Kingdom of God. 531 00:27:25,018 --> 00:27:26,436 He just doesn't use it as often. 532 00:27:27,562 --> 00:27:31,399 but. There's other words. 533 00:27:32,275 --> 00:27:35,737 The concept there, is there in other words. 534 00:27:37,030 --> 00:27:40,116 so what does it mean to say Jesus Christ? 535 00:27:42,535 --> 00:27:44,371 Yeah that's a really good point. 536 00:27:44,371 --> 00:27:45,622 You know, different people. 537 00:27:45,622 --> 00:27:48,958 I know there's some some debates over this. 538 00:27:48,958 --> 00:27:54,255 Some people say well Christ was just quickly kind of becoming a routine title. 539 00:27:54,255 --> 00:27:57,384 And you know, Jesus Christ becomes a set phrase 540 00:27:57,717 --> 00:27:58,593 because that's how we think of it now. 541 00:27:58,593 --> 00:28:01,971 Somebody says Jesus Christ, we just think of it as a phrase like, 542 00:28:01,971 --> 00:28:05,600 you know, somebody might rattle off Alexander the Great. 543 00:28:06,476 --> 00:28:08,812 Well, if you talk to me about Alexander 544 00:28:08,812 --> 00:28:13,191 the Great, you might or might not mean that he was actually great, right? 545 00:28:13,191 --> 00:28:15,527 You just refer to him that way because everybody else does. 546 00:28:15,527 --> 00:28:17,404 Yeah. but, 547 00:28:18,530 --> 00:28:20,365 you know, there's other scholars think of N.T. 548 00:28:20,365 --> 00:28:23,368 Wright, and more recently, you know, Matthew Bates 549 00:28:23,785 --> 00:28:26,788 really pushing us on that and saying, hey, wait a minute. 550 00:28:27,706 --> 00:28:30,583 You know, it's not like Jesus was the first name and Christ was his last name. 551 00:28:30,583 --> 00:28:34,546 Like, you know, Jesus is the Messiah. 552 00:28:35,714 --> 00:28:38,883 I even saw it put really memorably said, somebody said, 553 00:28:38,883 --> 00:28:41,886 Jesus Christ is a claim, not a name. 554 00:28:42,721 --> 00:28:44,973 And just for the clarity for the audience. 555 00:28:44,973 --> 00:28:48,435 So Christ would essentially be the Greek form of the word Messiah. 556 00:28:48,476 --> 00:28:49,769 Am I getting that right? 557 00:28:49,769 --> 00:28:51,146 Or a very similar meaning? 558 00:28:51,146 --> 00:28:54,149 Yes. So, 559 00:28:55,233 --> 00:28:58,236 Christ is related to the Greek word for anointing. 560 00:28:59,112 --> 00:29:02,073 just like 561 00:29:02,073 --> 00:29:03,450 just like the Hebrew Messiah. 562 00:29:03,450 --> 00:29:05,160 It's related to the idea of anointing, like. 563 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,120 The anointed one. The anointed one, right. 564 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,416 So yeah, you had multiple anointings in the Old Testament. 565 00:29:11,958 --> 00:29:14,502 But when you say the Anointed One Christ, 566 00:29:14,502 --> 00:29:17,338 you know, it's referring specifically to as a king. 567 00:29:17,338 --> 00:29:17,922 Yeah. 568 00:29:17,922 --> 00:29:21,259 You know, even David sometimes referencing Saul 569 00:29:21,259 --> 00:29:24,763 when Saul was king as the Lord's anointed and then. 570 00:29:24,763 --> 00:29:26,014 Okay, and then, of course, 571 00:29:26,014 --> 00:29:29,017 you get the expectation of the Messiah, the anointed one. 572 00:29:29,100 --> 00:29:30,852 In the line of David. 573 00:29:30,852 --> 00:29:32,687 So what Jesus is. 574 00:29:32,687 --> 00:29:33,146 Well even, Okay. 575 00:29:33,146 --> 00:29:37,984 Just refer back to the passage that we both we just, read in acts. 576 00:29:39,235 --> 00:29:41,571 Peter says, 577 00:29:41,571 --> 00:29:44,407 let the house of Israel therefore know for certain 578 00:29:44,407 --> 00:29:47,410 God has made him Jesus, both Lord 579 00:29:47,410 --> 00:29:50,413 and Messiah and Christ. 580 00:29:50,455 --> 00:29:53,708 Like he has made him the Christ, made him the king. 581 00:29:53,708 --> 00:29:54,751 The ruler. 582 00:29:54,751 --> 00:29:55,335 Yeah. 583 00:29:55,335 --> 00:29:59,798 You know, because of his death and resurrection and really, 584 00:29:59,798 --> 00:30:03,718 the ascension is showing that, as a king. 585 00:30:04,219 --> 00:30:07,055 So then all of a sudden, it's totally, 586 00:30:07,055 --> 00:30:10,058 you know, the epistles are saturated with Kingdom language. 587 00:30:10,683 --> 00:30:12,602 Every time you see the word Christ. 588 00:30:12,602 --> 00:30:16,439 That's a really good point of again, just to just hammer that again. 589 00:30:16,439 --> 00:30:18,107 I can't remember who 590 00:30:18,107 --> 00:30:22,195 you quoted, but someone's saying that that Jesus Christ is not just a name. 591 00:30:22,195 --> 00:30:25,281 Like, that's a title, attached to who he is. 592 00:30:25,573 --> 00:30:27,325 That's a really important piece. 593 00:30:27,325 --> 00:30:32,372 That's a really, I guess it's we're removed enough. 594 00:30:32,372 --> 00:30:34,457 I mean, we just hear it so often. 595 00:30:34,457 --> 00:30:36,167 We hear it so often. We just. 596 00:30:36,167 --> 00:30:38,545 We just gloss over it. Yeah, exactly. 597 00:30:38,545 --> 00:30:41,923 That's a really helpful chunk, to pull out. 598 00:30:41,965 --> 00:30:44,592 I'm glad you hit that. Is there? yeah. 599 00:30:44,592 --> 00:30:46,094 Where else would you like to go with that? 600 00:30:46,094 --> 00:30:49,597 Or if you want to continue on with other influences as well, 601 00:30:49,681 --> 00:30:52,725 kind of help you come, come through this, wrestle through this. 602 00:30:53,017 --> 00:30:53,768 so the one, 603 00:30:55,019 --> 00:30:55,353 the one 604 00:30:55,353 --> 00:30:59,232 period that really helped me was being assigned to teach 605 00:30:59,232 --> 00:31:03,444 a youth Sunday school class, and I had multiple topics to cover. 606 00:31:03,444 --> 00:31:07,282 I decided to use the letter to the Ephesians because I could 607 00:31:08,575 --> 00:31:11,744 kind of focus on that one letter and hit most of the topics, 608 00:31:11,995 --> 00:31:14,998 that I was assigned to. 609 00:31:15,123 --> 00:31:20,044 And, you know, I just went through a period of just trying 610 00:31:20,044 --> 00:31:24,090 to wrap my mind around obviously Ephesians has lots of long sentences, 611 00:31:24,424 --> 00:31:27,635 lots of tremendously grand language and so on. 612 00:31:28,011 --> 00:31:32,473 but to wrap my mind around, get my mind around some of the main tracks, 613 00:31:32,974 --> 00:31:35,977 or threads going through there. 614 00:31:35,977 --> 00:31:38,897 And one of those was just how thoroughly, 615 00:31:38,897 --> 00:31:42,609 you know, that is about this king and this kind of king. 616 00:31:43,943 --> 00:31:44,235 we already 617 00:31:44,235 --> 00:31:48,323 referenced Ephesians about, you know, he ascended, gave gifts to men, 618 00:31:48,323 --> 00:31:51,701 which were the gifts of the of the Holy Spirit. 619 00:31:52,035 --> 00:31:56,372 earlier in Ephesians chapter one, I'm going to read a short section. 620 00:31:57,248 --> 00:32:00,251 verses 20 to 23. 621 00:32:00,460 --> 00:32:01,753 Breaking into a sentence. 622 00:32:01,753 --> 00:32:05,632 God raised Messiah from the dead, seated him at his right 623 00:32:05,632 --> 00:32:09,427 hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule 624 00:32:09,677 --> 00:32:14,182 and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named 625 00:32:14,682 --> 00:32:17,685 not only in this age, but also in the one to come. 626 00:32:18,227 --> 00:32:21,230 And he put all things under his feet. 627 00:32:21,648 --> 00:32:24,734 So, okay, a little hard to get more Kingdom focused than that. 628 00:32:25,443 --> 00:32:28,821 And very clearly putting Jesus as a king, right? 629 00:32:28,863 --> 00:32:31,908 Jesus with the father at his right hand. 630 00:32:33,493 --> 00:32:34,410 and then pulling the 631 00:32:34,410 --> 00:32:37,830 implications there that determine how he's going to talk in the rest of Ephesians. 632 00:32:38,581 --> 00:32:41,584 So God put all things under Jesus’ feet, 633 00:32:41,584 --> 00:32:44,629 gave Jesus as head over all things to the church, 634 00:32:45,630 --> 00:32:48,925 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. 635 00:32:50,093 --> 00:32:52,011 And then you can trace 636 00:32:52,011 --> 00:32:55,014 through Ephesians just kind of the 637 00:32:55,139 --> 00:32:58,142 the outworking of that idea, like, here's the King, 638 00:32:58,977 --> 00:33:01,854 here's something about how this whole church thing works, 639 00:33:01,854 --> 00:33:05,608 how it expresses the fullness or expresses God's reign 640 00:33:06,693 --> 00:33:07,860 to the powers. 641 00:33:07,860 --> 00:33:10,863 to those, 642 00:33:11,364 --> 00:33:14,117 you know, authority and power and dominion. 643 00:33:14,117 --> 00:33:16,786 You know how it works out. 644 00:33:16,786 --> 00:33:19,664 Paul in Ephesians does talk about inheriting the Kingdom of God as well. 645 00:33:19,664 --> 00:33:24,127 So he comfortably uses Kingdom of God language there. 646 00:33:26,754 --> 00:33:29,340 Some ways, I think maybe we could do a whole episode just on that. 647 00:33:29,340 --> 00:33:31,342 Like the King and his body. 648 00:33:31,342 --> 00:33:34,345 Take that theme and just, you know, trace it through Ephesians. 649 00:33:34,512 --> 00:33:39,142 but just to hammer that ascension 650 00:33:40,435 --> 00:33:43,521 and then Ephesians chapter two, you know, 651 00:33:43,521 --> 00:33:47,525 you were dead in your trespasses and sins and you were made alive. 652 00:33:48,568 --> 00:33:48,818 Okay. 653 00:33:48,818 --> 00:33:51,821 So that's a, if there’s any passage that is hammering like 654 00:33:52,488 --> 00:33:55,241 you personally were messed up 655 00:33:55,241 --> 00:33:58,828 and you need to be saved from being very messed up, right? 656 00:33:58,828 --> 00:34:00,872 It’s Ephesians two 657 00:34:00,872 --> 00:34:01,581 well, okay. 658 00:34:01,581 --> 00:34:04,000 Right there is 659 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,003 Kingdom of God language too. 660 00:34:07,211 --> 00:34:09,797 so remember Jesus is seated at the right hand. 661 00:34:09,797 --> 00:34:13,384 So not only were we buried with Christ in baptism and raised with Christ. 662 00:34:14,260 --> 00:34:16,429 It says you are seated with Christ. 663 00:34:18,556 --> 00:34:20,892 So there you have another sense. 664 00:34:20,892 --> 00:34:23,603 People who belong to Jesus 665 00:34:23,603 --> 00:34:26,606 are actually part of reigning in the Kingdom. 666 00:34:27,231 --> 00:34:29,067 And of course, the way that can work 667 00:34:29,067 --> 00:34:32,028 out is through God giving the Holy Spirit to believers. 668 00:34:32,070 --> 00:34:34,072 That's how we can be part of it. 669 00:34:34,072 --> 00:34:36,365 But that's Kingdom. 670 00:34:36,365 --> 00:34:39,368 Kingdom saturated right there. 671 00:34:39,452 --> 00:34:43,581 You know, you were under the power of the devil. 672 00:34:43,581 --> 00:34:46,667 Now you're seated with Christ in the heavenly places. 673 00:34:47,418 --> 00:34:48,544 work it out. 674 00:34:48,544 --> 00:34:51,172 And it seems like the phraseology that's being used 675 00:34:51,172 --> 00:34:54,383 is fairly different from what you see in the Gospels say. 676 00:34:54,634 --> 00:34:58,846 But some of that is also because Paul is writing after the ascension. 677 00:34:58,846 --> 00:34:59,180 Right. 678 00:34:59,180 --> 00:35:02,475 So like there's another piece here that's being emphasized. 679 00:35:02,725 --> 00:35:05,561 Am I getting close to, 680 00:35:05,561 --> 00:35:06,646 to some of the differences. 681 00:35:06,646 --> 00:35:08,815 Or maybe that's why we miss it sometimes. 682 00:35:08,815 --> 00:35:10,358 Yes. But 683 00:35:11,943 --> 00:35:13,319 you know, that's 684 00:35:13,319 --> 00:35:16,322 also in the Gospels and actually, 685 00:35:17,156 --> 00:35:20,743 you know, another guest we've had on here, Paul Lamicela. 686 00:35:21,661 --> 00:35:24,539 And just some of the ways he's talked about it and, and other people 687 00:35:24,539 --> 00:35:28,501 as well helped me realize like no, the Gospels have these themes too, like, 688 00:35:29,877 --> 00:35:31,587 yeah, we did a little clip from one of Paul's 689 00:35:31,587 --> 00:35:34,590 episodes called The Genealogy of Jesus is Not Boring. 690 00:35:35,091 --> 00:35:38,094 Well, what does the genealogy of Jesus and Matthew do? 691 00:35:38,344 --> 00:35:41,347 Well, one of the things is it establishes him as the Son of David. 692 00:35:41,597 --> 00:35:43,599 That's a yeah. You know, kingly. 693 00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:47,728 And then you get that king language going the whole way, the whole way through. 694 00:35:48,396 --> 00:35:50,606 You know, Jesus as Davidic king, son of David. 695 00:35:50,606 --> 00:35:52,567 That's through the Gospels as well. 696 00:35:52,567 --> 00:35:53,734 That's a really good point. 697 00:35:53,734 --> 00:35:55,695 I remember when he shared that on the episode 698 00:35:55,695 --> 00:35:57,446 during the interview I was like, oh wow. Yeah. 699 00:35:57,446 --> 00:36:00,950 I had not thought of it quite like that, but that is an important piece. 700 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,036 yeah. Jesus's genealogy isn't boring. 701 00:36:04,036 --> 00:36:06,247 You know, you start with Matthew chapter one. 702 00:36:06,247 --> 00:36:09,834 It’s like, why is it starting with a kind of a dry, boring genealogy? 703 00:36:09,876 --> 00:36:11,752 You know, it's like, oh, that's why. 704 00:36:11,752 --> 00:36:14,881 and there's a lot more to it that you can find in the, in the episode. 705 00:36:14,881 --> 00:36:15,840 But yeah. 706 00:36:17,258 --> 00:36:20,261 Yeah, if that's boring, it's because 707 00:36:20,678 --> 00:36:23,681 we don't know our Bibles well enough. 708 00:36:24,473 --> 00:36:27,476 If you know your Bible, it's anything but boring. 709 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,061 Put it that way. 710 00:36:29,061 --> 00:36:31,147 That's really good. 711 00:36:31,147 --> 00:36:34,275 so maybe just a couple comments and then I have a couple comments 712 00:36:34,275 --> 00:36:36,235 kind of tying a couple of loose ends. 713 00:36:36,235 --> 00:36:41,282 And then I have, one quote from Romans that I want to end with 714 00:36:41,282 --> 00:36:44,577 that really makes the point about the Kingdom in Paul's gospel. 715 00:36:45,453 --> 00:36:46,287 and so one of those loose ends, 716 00:36:46,287 --> 00:36:49,916 we talked about Ephesians, I would just flag I had the privilege of, 717 00:36:50,458 --> 00:36:53,669 you know, interviewing John Coblentz we released those recently. 718 00:36:54,003 --> 00:36:56,088 And one of those we titled, 719 00:36:56,088 --> 00:36:58,883 you know, How God Intends Churches to Exhibit His Glory. 720 00:36:58,883 --> 00:37:02,803 And so there we did get into some of those pieces from Ephesians about, 721 00:37:03,554 --> 00:37:04,430 you know, what's God? 722 00:37:04,430 --> 00:37:06,724 What's the King trying to do with the church? 723 00:37:06,724 --> 00:37:07,975 could recommend that. 724 00:37:09,435 --> 00:37:11,896 the other one I'm going to stick in here. 725 00:37:11,896 --> 00:37:14,899 Don't have time to develop it in this episode, but I 726 00:37:16,192 --> 00:37:19,153 can't quite bear not to mention it. 727 00:37:19,153 --> 00:37:21,113 And that is, 728 00:37:21,113 --> 00:37:24,116 you know, the whole idea of already not yet. 729 00:37:24,617 --> 00:37:29,997 It's a phrase used by, biblical scholars or inaugurated eschatology, 730 00:37:30,039 --> 00:37:33,042 if you like a slightly longer, fancier phrase. 731 00:37:33,709 --> 00:37:36,754 but both of those remind us that, 732 00:37:38,673 --> 00:37:41,300 okay, the Kingdom is here in the sense that okay, Jesus 733 00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:44,303 has ascended to the throne, we’re seated with him. 734 00:37:44,637 --> 00:37:46,013 but there's more coming, right? 735 00:37:46,013 --> 00:37:47,640 There's still enemies. 736 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,935 Not everybody acknowledges his reign, it’s not public. 737 00:37:50,935 --> 00:37:53,938 It can be hidden. 738 00:37:53,938 --> 00:37:56,774 you know, rebellion still has a place. 739 00:37:56,774 --> 00:37:58,985 There's still death. 740 00:37:58,985 --> 00:38:00,778 you know, first Corinthians says the last enemy 741 00:38:00,778 --> 00:38:03,781 that will be defeated is death, and then the Kingdom will be handed over. 742 00:38:04,282 --> 00:38:06,993 there's just an important frame in all of this. 743 00:38:06,993 --> 00:38:08,911 There's a part of the Kingdom that is now. 744 00:38:09,912 --> 00:38:11,289 And there's more coming. 745 00:38:11,289 --> 00:38:12,456 And there's more coming. 746 00:38:12,456 --> 00:38:15,876 but the piece I would like to end with here. 747 00:38:16,168 --> 00:38:18,254 specifically because, 748 00:38:18,254 --> 00:38:21,549 you know, it addresses the Kingdom in Romans of all places. 749 00:38:22,591 --> 00:38:25,761 And I would thank, Matthew Bates, 750 00:38:25,761 --> 00:38:28,848 especially a book like Why the Gospel and he's written other stuff. 751 00:38:28,889 --> 00:38:31,559 for pointing this out. 752 00:38:31,559 --> 00:38:35,104 the opening of Romans, Paul, a servant of Messiah 753 00:38:35,104 --> 00:38:38,107 Jesus called to be an apostle, 754 00:38:38,149 --> 00:38:42,611 set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand 755 00:38:42,611 --> 00:38:45,614 through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 756 00:38:46,365 --> 00:38:47,658 concerning his Son. 757 00:38:47,658 --> 00:38:50,661 Okay, so this is the gospel of God concerning His Son concerning Jesus. 758 00:38:51,495 --> 00:38:54,707 What does it say about him who is descended from David 759 00:38:54,707 --> 00:38:57,668 according to the flesh? 760 00:38:57,668 --> 00:38:59,253 Davidic connection 761 00:38:59,253 --> 00:39:01,922 and was declared to be the Son of God in power, 762 00:39:01,922 --> 00:39:04,925 according to the spirit of holiness, by his resurrection from the dead. 763 00:39:05,509 --> 00:39:07,678 Jesus Messiah, our Lord. 764 00:39:08,679 --> 00:39:11,849 and the part that Bates really highlighted there is that part 765 00:39:12,058 --> 00:39:15,061 declared to be the Son of God in power. 766 00:39:16,228 --> 00:39:19,648 And, you know, he argues that that indicates 767 00:39:19,648 --> 00:39:22,651 that kind of, you know, installation as King. 768 00:39:24,278 --> 00:39:26,364 Through whom we have received grace and apostleship 769 00:39:26,364 --> 00:39:29,367 to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name 770 00:39:29,367 --> 00:39:31,994 among all the nations. 771 00:39:31,994 --> 00:39:34,330 So there you have right at the beginning of Romans, 772 00:39:34,330 --> 00:39:39,377 which we often think of as, you know, locus classicus for Paul's gospel. 773 00:39:39,377 --> 00:39:42,880 And he says, it's concerning Jesus, who was descended from David, 774 00:39:43,214 --> 00:39:45,883 declared the Son of God in power. 775 00:39:45,883 --> 00:39:47,927 And actually, my job as an apostle is to bring 776 00:39:47,927 --> 00:39:50,930 about the obedience of faith among all the nations 777 00:39:51,347 --> 00:39:52,890 to this king. 778 00:39:52,890 --> 00:39:56,977 So a little hard to say that Paul's gospel isn't about the Kingdom. 779 00:39:58,312 --> 00:40:00,648 That's really something. 780 00:40:00,648 --> 00:40:03,651 I've never thought of the beginning of Romans like that before. 781 00:40:04,485 --> 00:40:07,363 That's interesting. The, 782 00:40:07,363 --> 00:40:07,696 Yeah. 783 00:40:07,696 --> 00:40:10,699 Bringing in those connections in the context of what 784 00:40:10,866 --> 00:40:11,826 Paul's trying to communicate. 785 00:40:11,826 --> 00:40:13,786 I just hadn't thought of it like that. 786 00:40:13,786 --> 00:40:15,746 That's really helpful. 787 00:40:15,746 --> 00:40:17,706 Was there anything else you would like to 788 00:40:17,706 --> 00:40:20,709 add as we bring this episode to a close? 789 00:40:21,419 --> 00:40:23,295 I mean, just to say that this is a rich subject. 790 00:40:23,295 --> 00:40:26,340 So I've, you know, shared some of my journey and things I'm learning. 791 00:40:26,340 --> 00:40:28,634 And, you know, I think that may resonate with others 792 00:40:28,634 --> 00:40:32,263 because a lot of the questions I've had, I hear other people asking and so on. 793 00:40:32,805 --> 00:40:35,808 but there's a lot more there. So, 794 00:40:35,850 --> 00:40:39,270 keep learning and studying and of course, experiencing 795 00:40:39,270 --> 00:40:43,566 the Kingdom of God through through your own walking with Jesus. 796 00:40:45,234 --> 00:40:45,526 Yeah. 797 00:40:45,526 --> 00:40:48,529 Well I appreciate that and I appreciate you sharing 798 00:40:48,529 --> 00:40:50,990 the journey you've had of, of learning these things. 799 00:40:50,990 --> 00:40:54,034 and also to, for anybody listening or watching this or whatever. 800 00:40:54,076 --> 00:40:55,411 we're going to link 801 00:40:55,411 --> 00:40:57,204 all the things you mentioned down below 802 00:40:57,204 --> 00:40:59,290 so they can continue that journey on their own as well. 803 00:40:59,290 --> 00:41:00,166 yeah. 804 00:41:00,166 --> 00:41:03,836 There's a there's a lot of good resources out there for people to, to, to dig into. 805 00:41:03,836 --> 00:41:06,672 So hopefully that'll be helpful to some people who want to learn more. 806 00:41:06,672 --> 00:41:10,384 I know for myself, many years ago, actually, you recommended 807 00:41:10,384 --> 00:41:13,721 the Divine conspiracy to me from Dallas Willard and got a copy. 808 00:41:13,721 --> 00:41:17,016 And that was a big influence on myself as well as that book by Bercot 809 00:41:17,016 --> 00:41:19,894 that you mentioned as well. The Kingdom That Turned the World Upside Down. 810 00:41:19,894 --> 00:41:21,896 those are very helpful in my own journey. 811 00:41:21,896 --> 00:41:25,900 So yeah, I think I would echo what you said there, encouraging people 812 00:41:25,900 --> 00:41:27,985 to dig into this more. There's a lot more here. 813 00:41:27,985 --> 00:41:31,989 And hopefully this episode is, a bit of a inspiration. 814 00:41:32,448 --> 00:41:33,324 Yeah. Yes. 815 00:41:33,324 --> 00:41:34,992 There you go. A little bit of inspiration. Yeah. 816 00:41:34,992 --> 00:41:38,120 Good to go dig into this more and hey, maybe go and reread, 817 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,831 you know, Ephesians or something and look at it through this lens 818 00:41:40,831 --> 00:41:41,749 that you've been giving us. 819 00:41:41,749 --> 00:41:42,750 So yeah. 820 00:41:42,750 --> 00:41:45,628 well, I appreciate you coming on the podcast today and sharing this. 821 00:41:45,628 --> 00:41:47,046 This has been very interesting. 822 00:41:47,922 --> 00:41:49,048 Thank you. 823 00:41:49,965 --> 00:41:52,343 Thanks for listening to this episode with Marlin 824 00:41:52,343 --> 00:41:55,554 Sommers on Paul's Gospel and the Kingdom of God. 825 00:41:55,804 --> 00:41:59,350 We mentioned a previous episode with we did with John D Martin called 826 00:41:59,350 --> 00:42:01,185 The Importance of the Kingdom of God, 827 00:42:01,185 --> 00:42:04,522 which you can find linked down below or on the screen here on YouTube. 828 00:42:05,022 --> 00:42:06,232 Thanks again for listening. 829 00:42:06,232 --> 00:42:09,360 If you enjoy what we're doing here at Anabaptist Perspectives, 830 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:10,778 we have a monthly email newsletter 831 00:42:10,778 --> 00:42:15,282 which you can sign up for at our website at anabaptistperspectives.org 832 00:42:15,449 --> 00:42:18,118 We also have an exclusive partners podcast. 833 00:42:18,118 --> 00:42:21,372 It's only available to those who donate on a monthly basis. 834 00:42:21,372 --> 00:42:23,958 And again, you can join that over on our website. 835 00:42:23,958 --> 00:42:26,794 Thanks again for listening and we'll catch you in the next episode.