Speaker: 00:00:00

Because that's how we think of it now.

00:00:01,376 --> 00:00:04,754

Somebody says Jesus Christ,

we just think of it as a phrase like,

00:00:04,754 --> 00:00:08,383

you know, somebody might rattle off

Alexander the Great.

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Well, if you talk to me about Alexander

00:00:11,594 --> 00:00:15,974

the Great, you might or might not mean

that he was actually great, right?

00:00:15,974 --> 00:00:18,309

You just refer to him that way

because everybody else does.

00:00:18,309 --> 00:00:20,186

Yeah. but,

00:00:21,312 --> 00:00:23,148

you know, there's other scholars

think of N.T.

00:00:23,148 --> 00:00:26,151

Wright, and more recently,

you know, Matthew Bates

00:00:26,568 --> 00:00:29,571

really pushing us on that and saying,

hey, wait a minute.

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You know, it's not like Jesus was the

first name and Christ was his last name.

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Like, you know, Jesus is the Messiah.

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I even saw it

put really memorably said, somebody said,

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Jesus Christ is a claim, not a name.

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All right,

Marlin, welcome back to the podcast.

00:00:52,802 --> 00:00:54,387

It's, I think been a minute.

00:00:54,387 --> 00:00:56,431

I'm not sure even the last time

I interviewed you,

00:00:56,431 --> 00:00:59,434

but you're the executive director here

at Anabaptist Perspectives.

00:00:59,559 --> 00:01:03,146

And it's not too often that, both of us

get to be on, on camera,

00:01:03,146 --> 00:01:05,732

at the same time. So this this is fun.

00:01:05,732 --> 00:01:08,234

why don't you spend, just a brief minute

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introducing the topic, today and,

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and then I'm going to respond with a quote

from one of our listeners.

00:01:15,867 --> 00:01:16,076

yeah.

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So thinking about as the Kingdom

and Paul's gospel and thinking about that,

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because

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people sometimes say

and we'll read some quotes here that say,

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well Paul doesn't talk about the Kingdom,

why is that?

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Or Paul doesn't

talk much about the Kingdom.

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and we'll respond

to some of those quotes.

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but I also I keenly remember that

as something, you know, in my own

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thinking journey

over the last 20 years or so.

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So a lot of this is going to be kind of,

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autobiography in the very narrow sense

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of how I thought about the Kingdom

and influences over the years.

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Yeah. So let's, let's hop right into it.

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So if people have been listening

to this podcast for a while,

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they'll know we do talk a fair bit

about the Kingdom of God.

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We've interviewed

different people on that.

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We'll put links in the description,

some of those episodes.

00:02:05,542 --> 00:02:07,210

But yeah, today

a bit of a different angle.

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And I'm going to start with a quote

from someone named Benjamin,

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who left this quote

on one of our YouTube videos.

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he says this.

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“The Ebionites and the original James

led group who rejected Paul

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and read the original ”Hebrew

Matthew”, made its way eastward,

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away from the Greco-Roman pagan

influence and persecution of the West.

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The West preferred the teachings

of Paul over Jesus and still do today.

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Meanwhile, Jesus own brother

and the actual 12 disciples followed

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Jesus teaching.

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Eusebius, Iraneus,

and Jerome wrote about them.

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Ask yourself,

why did everyone in Asia abandon Paul?

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All the churches mentioned in Revelation

were in Asia.

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Why did Justin never mention Paul?

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Why did the original heretics

like Marcion love Paul?

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Why do most churches today reject Jesus

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commandments and preach mostly

just about Paul's teaching?

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Why did Calvin and Luther prefer Paul over

Jesus?” So it's a bit of a mouthful,

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like it's a big chunk he's got here,

and he's kind of free ranging across

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church history and different,

sectors of, of the church and things.

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So, yeah, maybe want to start

by unpacking a bit of this

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and tell us,

what is this concern that he's addressing?

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Try to boil it down for us.

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Yeah.

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And when I saw that comment on YouTube,

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you know this represents

this kind of Paul Jesus contrast.

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He puts it in a very extreme form.

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but the the reason I want to address it

here is

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there are a lot of, a lot of people

and a lot of tendencies to think that way.

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even if,

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most people who talk about Paul and Jesus

wouldn't go as far as Benjamin does.

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They're not going to accuse Paul

of essentially being a heretic,

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which is what this comment feels like.

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but,

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you know,

I remember a number of years ago,

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you know, having a conversation

with a brother who was also a,

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relative.

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And, you know, he had recently discovered

and gotten really enthused about

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thinking seriously

about the Kingdom of God,

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especially as presented in the Gospels,

Matthew and so on.

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And he makes the comment,

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you know, “We need

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to put Jesus first and Paul second”.

00:04:24,138 --> 00:04:25,932

So. Okay.

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In one sense that's obvious, right?

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Paul was a disciple of Jesus.

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Jesus wasn't a disciple of Paul.

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but why did he feel that tension?

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and why have other people felt

that tension?

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You know, in, in so many different ways.

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you know, even thinking from more of a,

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you know, liberal scholarship

or liberal theology

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there, you might hear people

talking about how,

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you know,

Jesus was the radical revolutionary.

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And then Paul came along

and tamed it down and made this,

00:05:01,759 --> 00:05:05,179

you know, suitable

for civilization or whatever.

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I've definitely heard that before. Right.

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So either way, it's the same sense of it.

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And often

it is related to ideas of the Kingdom.

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Like,

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you know, Jesus came promoting a Kingdom

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came as Messiah.

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And there's obviously

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different people see very different

emphases in Kingdom of God.

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but then tend to see Paul's theology

as something else.

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And I'll say right up front,

I think that's just plain wrong.

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That's a large

part of the thesis of this episode.

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that, you know, Paul's

gospel is thoroughly,

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Kingdom centered.

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but yeah, I want to do that

by kind of exploring

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some of my own journey people

I've learned from things I've learned.

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thinking about the Kingdom of God.

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So that yeah, that does

lead us to the first question.

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And you've already kind of tapped this

a bit, but isn't Paul's gospel.

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And it's kind of funny to use those terms.

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But let's go with it.

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Paul's gospel actually Kingdom centered.

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and doesn't Paul

talk about the Kingdom of God?

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but again, it does feel I've you referred

to a personal conversation you had

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where it seemed like they were almost

a bit in contrast or in tension.

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And I'm definitely noticed that too,

when people talk about it,

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it's like, well, Jesus talks

all about the Kingdom and all that stuff.

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And then Paul doesn't really,

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push back on that because you're saying

that that's not the case.

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Walk us through it.

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Well, maybe from a little bit

of a sideways angle, a little bit.

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You know, in the last few years,

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I'm not sure how far back this was,

but the idea of red letter Christianity

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and in other words,

taking the words of Jesus seriously.

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And then you get pushback from that

and say, you know,

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people say, well, all letter Christianity,

which obviously we should be all letter

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Christianity, right? Red and black.

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But again,

why is there this sense that red letter

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Christianity is going to get you something

different than,

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you know, the whole New Testament

Christianity?

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now, obviously

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Jesus was talking before his death

and resurrection in the red letters. And

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so the apostles have to make sense of it

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after Jesus is ascended and so on.

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but why is there the sense of it

getting a different lifestyle?

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And sometimes it's like,

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you know,

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Jesus taught nonresistance

on the sermon on the Mount.

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Paul taught,

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you know, Romans 13 and justified

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the state and violence and slavery

and everything else.

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And so with the red letter Christianity,

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sometimes there's the idea that, you know,

Jesus taught something different.

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Taught a different ethic

than what Paul did.

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but I think as a lot of people

have pointed out, well,

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actually go read Romans

12 and 13, read the whole thing.

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Like the sermon on

the Mount is still there.

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The ethical content of the sermon on

the Mount

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shows up in Paul and the other epistles

and so on.

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So there's there's not this, big change.

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you know, some of these other pieces

we'll talk about in more detail later, but

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Paul often

doesn't use the word Kingdom as much,

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but he uses

other things that have become obscured.

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What does Christ mean? Well,

it means Messiah.

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What does that mean?

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Anointed?

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Well, who was anointed? The king.

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so that would be one

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very quick, quick rejoinder.

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So as we look at this, let's pivot it

a bit to more your personal story.

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So what were some of the key influences

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for you on this journey of unpacking

what is this Kingdom of God.

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How does this work?

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How does this even, resolving that

bit of tension that some of us have sensed

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between Jesus and Paul and, oh, you know,

different emphases and all that stuff?

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Yeah.

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Walk us through what what were these

influences across your life?

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Yeah.

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So let me start earlier with,

you know, teenage years

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and really thinking about Kingdom

and Gospel of the Kingdom.

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so one of those thinkers

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who we had on the podcast, John D Martin,

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who, you know, would speak

about the Kingdom of God

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over and over again

with, various emphases,

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but especially,

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you know, the Kingdom of God

is the sermon on the Mount.

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the Kingdom of God as, look what happens

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when you get enough people together

that actually are willing to obey.

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You get a different kind of community

when they're obeying the King.

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that was a huge influence early on,

and he would contrast it

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with what he called the save me gospel.

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You know,

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so gospel of the Kingdom

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God is establishing a Kingdom

which entails a group of people,

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a group of subjects who live together

versus

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a save me gospel that says, well,

actually the good news is that

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I personally

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can be forgiven. And,

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you know, the rest is.

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it's still important,

but it's downstream from there.

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It's not central.

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And so he kept calling back

that gospel of the Kingdom.

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And of course, I really latched on

to that because that's what

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Jesus talked about

200

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in terms of the gospel of the Kingdom.

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but I've had to wrestle,

you know, since with.

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Okay, how

203

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how did all these different pieces

fit together in a Kingdom framework?

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because at that point,

I didn't have the tools for

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I didn't have the tools for myself

for thinking through,

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you know, Paul's gospel and kingship

and so on in,

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in quite the same way.

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you know, another,

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another thinker that I read early on that

really influenced my view of the Kingdom.

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And this is outside

of our Anabaptist circles.

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but was Dallas Willard and particularly

the book

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The Divine Conspiracy.

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It felt like

I was reading that at a young time.

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And it's like all of a sudden

Christianity for me, switched

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from a black and white picture

to a full, full color picture.

216

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So it was yeah, hugely important

217

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in, in getting me excited about that.

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But the biggest, you know, takeaway for me

there related to the Kingdom

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and my thinking was just

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him stressing, look,

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God is present.

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God's power is available

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because God is in control.

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You can actually now in your life,

you know, I can rely on that.

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we can learn to be like Jesus.

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We can trust

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that God is going to take care of us

in the middle of of whatever's going on.

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and of course, yeah,

Willard is a very rich thinker.

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but that was the part

that resonated the most for me in terms of

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of kingship.

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and that added another level,

because Willard wasn't

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just talking about he's a king,

so we obey him,

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although he strongly emphasized that.

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But like, the king is here

and is capable of taking care of us

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and we can become like him.

236

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So in that process.

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So those are some of the early influences.

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So John D Martin and Dallas Willard,

which yes, that is,

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that is quite, quite the read The Divine

Conspiracy, that was a good read.

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and we'll put links to, to

all these things that you're referencing,

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in the description. What were some others.

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as you, as you're progressing

along this journey, In that time frame.

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Yeah.

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Well, so two more two more men

that we've interviewed on

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on Anabaptist perspectives.

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So David

Bercot has been a frequent guest.

247

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So he had the The Kingdom

That Turned the World upside Down.

248

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which is you know, a short book,

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that goes through, takes a quick look at,

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what kind of Kingdom did Jesus teach

251

00:13:02,156 --> 00:13:02,865

what kind of Kingdom did Jesus teach

252

00:13:02,865 --> 00:13:06,368

and especially the emphasis there

that stuck with me, I think is,

253

00:13:07,411 --> 00:13:09,455

you know, Jesus is a king.

254

00:13:09,455 --> 00:13:14,877

There are certain what he would call laws

of the Kingdom and they are to be obeyed.

255

00:13:14,877 --> 00:13:17,713

And so this is how we live.

256

00:13:17,713 --> 00:13:20,966

a theme that resonates very well

with Anabaptist sensibilities

257

00:13:22,051 --> 00:13:24,261

and so on.

258

00:13:24,261 --> 00:13:26,722

And then,

259

00:13:26,722 --> 00:13:29,850

Dean Taylor again, a frequent guest.

260

00:13:30,935 --> 00:13:32,436

I remember him talking about the Kingdom.

261

00:13:32,436 --> 00:13:35,439

And then one phrase I remember from there.

262

00:13:35,981 --> 00:13:38,818

that really builds on some of the stuff

that John D Martin talked about.

263

00:13:38,818 --> 00:13:41,237

was this phrase that Dean would use.

264

00:13:42,363 --> 00:13:44,532

“God's

people are supposed to show the world

265

00:13:44,532 --> 00:13:47,535

what things would be like

if only we would obey the king.”

266

00:13:48,744 --> 00:13:51,121

And so there's a powerful thing there.

267

00:13:51,121 --> 00:13:52,790

Right. Like, okay.

268

00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:57,837

If you actually had not just 1 or 2 people

but together and with those around us,

269

00:13:59,171 --> 00:14:01,966

we're obeying Jesus.

270

00:14:01,966 --> 00:14:04,969

It's going to result

in a different kind of interaction.

271

00:14:05,469 --> 00:14:08,597

And if enough people do that,

you're going to get a kind of different,

272

00:14:09,056 --> 00:14:12,685

different model, a portrayal of what

what things could look like.

273

00:14:13,644 --> 00:14:17,273

so yeah, all four of those,

were hugely helpful for me,

274

00:14:18,274 --> 00:14:21,443

but I don't know if those...

275

00:14:22,444 --> 00:14:23,487

the things that I took from there.

276

00:14:23,487 --> 00:14:25,906

I'm not saying these people

didn't have answers for that.

277

00:14:25,906 --> 00:14:29,368

but the things that I personally took

from those emphases

278

00:14:30,035 --> 00:14:32,162

didn't really address that question.

279

00:14:32,162 --> 00:14:35,499

You know, well, how does this fit

with all of Paul's writings and these,

280

00:14:36,041 --> 00:14:37,251

these larger themes?

281

00:14:37,251 --> 00:14:39,670

integration and and so on.

282

00:14:41,380 --> 00:14:42,798

So yeah, you've mentioned okay.

283

00:14:42,798 --> 00:14:46,760

So, Bercot, Dean Taylor

again, he's we've talked to them

284

00:14:46,886 --> 00:14:49,430

both actually on this podcast

about some of these themes.

285

00:14:49,430 --> 00:14:52,850

So people can dive into those

in more detail if they want.

286

00:14:53,976 --> 00:14:55,477

This is quite the package.

287

00:14:55,477 --> 00:14:56,562

Are there other pieces

288

00:14:56,562 --> 00:15:01,400

that were influences as well in this time

in your life, that you like to mention?

289

00:15:01,650 --> 00:15:05,446

Well, I think the idea, you know,

through all of those

290

00:15:05,446 --> 00:15:08,699

and through what I was thinking about,

the very biblical idea

291

00:15:08,699 --> 00:15:11,702

that kind of sums up

what I took from there.

292

00:15:11,744 --> 00:15:14,538

It actually comes from the Lord's Prayer,

from Jesus,

293

00:15:14,538 --> 00:15:17,541

where we're taught to pray,

294

00:15:17,541 --> 00:15:21,045

pray to our father in heaven

and to ask for his Kingdom

295

00:15:21,045 --> 00:15:24,465

to come, his will

to be done on earth as it is in heaven.

296

00:15:25,674 --> 00:15:28,302

so that's a very important part

of the idea of the Kingdom of God.

297

00:15:28,302 --> 00:15:29,219

Right?

298

00:15:29,219 --> 00:15:32,222

Well, God's will is done on earth

as it is in heaven.

299

00:15:32,848 --> 00:15:35,851

And that's what we're praying for

when we ask for God's Kingdom to come.

300

00:15:36,644 --> 00:15:38,979

So this is extremely important.

301

00:15:38,979 --> 00:15:40,898

And so when I say

I didn't have all the pieces

302

00:15:40,898 --> 00:15:43,859

at that point in life,

well I had that very important piece.

303

00:15:44,568 --> 00:15:47,738

And I think, you know, all those thinkers

I mentioned helped to really flesh out

304

00:15:47,738 --> 00:15:52,117

that idea of the Kingdom

as God's will being done on earth.

305

00:15:53,285 --> 00:15:53,827

Yeah.

306

00:15:53,827 --> 00:15:56,830

Which is tremendously important.

307

00:15:58,040 --> 00:15:59,708

So we're going to pivot a little bit here.

308

00:15:59,708 --> 00:16:01,961

and ask you this.

309

00:16:01,961 --> 00:16:06,382

So how does the Kingdom of God or God

the Father relate to Jesus as king?

310

00:16:06,590 --> 00:16:11,095

specifically as we think of him

in, in the line of David as the Messiah

311

00:16:11,095 --> 00:16:13,347

and so forth.

How do these pieces come together?

312

00:16:14,473 --> 00:16:17,434

Yeah,

I think that was that was a key for me.

313

00:16:17,434 --> 00:16:20,437

That took a little bit, to think about.

314

00:16:20,980 --> 00:16:23,983

so of course, when Jesus is on earth,

315

00:16:24,274 --> 00:16:27,277

he's saying the Kingdom of God

316

00:16:27,653 --> 00:16:30,656

and his identity

as Messiah is getting revealed.

317

00:16:31,198 --> 00:16:34,201

We see it getting revealed slowly

over the course of the Gospels.

318

00:16:34,410 --> 00:16:34,743

Right.

319

00:16:34,743 --> 00:16:38,914

Early on, he says, people, you know,

I don't tell, don't tell people.

320

00:16:38,914 --> 00:16:41,875

And then eventually

321

00:16:42,334 --> 00:16:45,295

he has people going,

you know, you confess, I am the Christ,

322

00:16:45,295 --> 00:16:47,256

I am the Messiah.

323

00:16:47,256 --> 00:16:49,717

And so we do see

324

00:16:49,717 --> 00:16:53,053

we do see in the Gospels

this thing emerging that it's

325

00:16:53,053 --> 00:16:56,140

not just the Kingdom of the Father,

but this is Jesus’

326

00:16:56,140 --> 00:16:59,143

Kingdom to

327

00:17:00,019 --> 00:17:03,188

and I think that's an important

piece that I've had to keep.

328

00:17:05,566 --> 00:17:06,108

Had to keep

329

00:17:06,108 --> 00:17:09,445

wrestling with and I think

can explain more like, okay, so of course,

330

00:17:09,445 --> 00:17:12,906

once we get to Paul, well, he's

on the other side of the resurrection.

331

00:17:12,906 --> 00:17:14,825

He's the other side of the Ascension.

332

00:17:14,825 --> 00:17:19,747

He's very, very tuned in to

Jesus is the King.

333

00:17:20,831 --> 00:17:22,541

Jesus is the Messiah.

334

00:17:22,541 --> 00:17:24,626

The Christ.

335

00:17:24,626 --> 00:17:28,881

And so once you're actually able

to start tracing that thread, you know,

336

00:17:28,881 --> 00:17:31,884

through the Gospels and through Paul,

once I'm able to start tracing that,

337

00:17:32,009 --> 00:17:34,803

then it's like all kinds of things,

338

00:17:34,803 --> 00:17:37,765

start coming together.

339

00:17:39,683 --> 00:17:42,686

I mean, so even an example there of.

340

00:17:44,521 --> 00:17:47,524

I guess just the process of time that,

341

00:17:47,649 --> 00:17:51,403

that it took me

to, to think through some of these.

342

00:17:51,445 --> 00:17:54,448

I remember, you know, at our church

a number of years ago,

343

00:17:54,490 --> 00:17:59,244

we sang one of these grand songs

about God's kingship.

344

00:17:59,286 --> 00:18:02,289

I think it might have been something like,

you know, the Lord is king,

345

00:18:02,706 --> 00:18:04,291

coming out of the Psalms

346

00:18:05,250 --> 00:18:06,960

talking about God's rule

347

00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,963

over all of creation and nature

and everything.

348

00:18:10,798 --> 00:18:14,760

and I remember one point

and we had a sharing time or something,

349

00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,263

and I just, I just mentioned something

there in church.

350

00:18:18,263 --> 00:18:23,185

I said, okay, there's this grand, grand

old hymn, the Lord is King.

351

00:18:23,185 --> 00:18:24,103

Like,

352

00:18:24,103 --> 00:18:25,437

okay, well, this has to connect

353

00:18:25,437 --> 00:18:28,440

to what we talk about when we talk about

the gospel of the Kingdom.

354

00:18:29,274 --> 00:18:32,277

But I'm like, I don't

I don't quite have all the

355

00:18:33,821 --> 00:18:36,115

all the pieces to feel like it connects.

356

00:18:36,115 --> 00:18:37,866

It feels like we're talking

about two very different things.

357

00:18:37,866 --> 00:18:40,869

Like I hear the gospel of the Kingdom,

and I think,

358

00:18:41,703 --> 00:18:44,456

well, live

according to the sermon on the Mount.

359

00:18:44,456 --> 00:18:47,167

And then I hear the song and I think,

360

00:18:48,418 --> 00:18:51,421

yeah, God created everything.

361

00:18:51,588 --> 00:18:52,381

Yeah.

362

00:18:52,381 --> 00:18:54,341

And it just, it felt disconnected to me.

363

00:18:54,341 --> 00:18:57,302

That's a really good point though

because when we,

364

00:18:57,302 --> 00:19:00,430

you know again we've done episodes on this

and you talk about this in the,

365

00:19:00,430 --> 00:19:03,684

you know

in our sector of the Anabaptist world,

366

00:19:03,684 --> 00:19:06,395

we're talking about Kingdom of God,

all this stuff.

367

00:19:06,395 --> 00:19:10,524

Very rarely, if ever, have I heard it

tied back to the Psalms like you're doing.

368

00:19:10,732 --> 00:19:12,317

which is really neat, actually.

369

00:19:12,317 --> 00:19:16,071

That's a neat angle that,

maybe we should hear about more often.

370

00:19:16,071 --> 00:19:18,490

Yeah. This

this is kind of a new thought for me.

371

00:19:18,490 --> 00:19:22,828

but it's also is it's coming back

to the original question

372

00:19:22,828 --> 00:19:25,956

where you're tying

that in with the Davidic line,

373

00:19:25,998 --> 00:19:29,001

of the Messiah.

374

00:19:29,418 --> 00:19:30,961

yeah. That's.

375

00:19:30,961 --> 00:19:32,337

Anyway. This isn't even a question.

376

00:19:32,337 --> 00:19:34,047

This is just kind of a response of, like.

377

00:19:34,047 --> 00:19:37,885

That's that's an interesting thought

that I have not really heard expressed

378

00:19:37,885 --> 00:19:38,510

very often.

379

00:19:39,970 --> 00:19:40,596

Yeah.

380

00:19:40,596 --> 00:19:43,724

And I mean, the New Testament uses

that all the time, uses these

381

00:19:44,725 --> 00:19:47,728

pieces from the Psalms to describe

382

00:19:48,270 --> 00:19:51,231

the Messiah,

or these pictures describe Jesus

383

00:19:52,107 --> 00:19:56,069

things that are talking about

God the Father in some cases, as you know,

384

00:19:56,069 --> 00:20:00,449

talk about Yahweh in the Old Testament

or things that are talking about

385

00:20:01,742 --> 00:20:04,411

David or a Davidic king

in the Old Testament brings us

386

00:20:04,411 --> 00:20:07,414

right together and says, actually,

you know, this is talking about

387

00:20:08,165 --> 00:20:11,168

Jesus, the divine Son.

388

00:20:11,460 --> 00:20:11,919

Yeah.

389

00:20:11,919 --> 00:20:15,631

So okay, so we just used the Psalms

and the Messiah,

390

00:20:15,631 --> 00:20:17,507

the Kingdom of God, God the father.

391

00:20:17,507 --> 00:20:21,011

bring that into the New Testament then,

how do we transition

392

00:20:21,011 --> 00:20:25,140

from some of the things

Jesus is saying in his teachings?

393

00:20:25,140 --> 00:20:26,683

And then you go through the death

and resurrection.

394

00:20:26,683 --> 00:20:29,311

And we've already talked a little bit

about the angle with Paul.

395

00:20:29,311 --> 00:20:31,021

What are some other elements, other pieces

396

00:20:31,021 --> 00:20:33,190

to this picture

that you would like to add?

397

00:20:33,190 --> 00:20:34,399

This whole thing of,

398

00:20:35,567 --> 00:20:36,568

you know, the Davidic

399

00:20:36,568 --> 00:20:40,697

king and Jesus being the king

400

00:20:40,697 --> 00:20:42,991

and and so on.

401

00:20:42,991 --> 00:20:43,700

and and so on.

402

00:20:43,867 --> 00:20:46,536

I can describe,

403

00:20:46,536 --> 00:20:49,456

you know, a particular point in time

where I, I saw something in two

404

00:20:49,456 --> 00:20:52,459

scriptural passages

that tied that together,

405

00:20:53,418 --> 00:20:56,421

tied together Jesus’ ascension

and the sending of the Holy Spirit.

406

00:20:57,005 --> 00:21:00,008

Now, I've seen lots of people reference

that since,

407

00:21:00,175 --> 00:21:03,971

but where it first really clicked with me

was reading,

408

00:21:04,930 --> 00:21:07,516

these two passages.

409

00:21:07,516 --> 00:21:09,518

the first one was in acts two,

this is Peter's

410

00:21:09,518 --> 00:21:12,521

sermon, there on the day of Pentecost.

411

00:21:13,063 --> 00:21:17,567

He's quoting Psalms, quoting things

that David wrote, applying them to Jesus.

412

00:21:18,277 --> 00:21:20,445

And then about verse 32.

413

00:21:20,445 --> 00:21:21,321

You get this.

414

00:21:21,321 --> 00:21:24,908

He says this Jesus God raised up,

415

00:21:25,117 --> 00:21:28,120

and that we are all witnesses.

416

00:21:28,328 --> 00:21:31,373

Being therefore exalted

at the right hand of God,

417

00:21:32,082 --> 00:21:35,043

and having received from the father

the promise of the Holy Spirit,

418

00:21:35,877 --> 00:21:39,423

he has poured out this, that you

yourselves are seeing and hearing.

419

00:21:40,799 --> 00:21:43,802

And what he's talking about there is

this is Pentecost,

420

00:21:44,094 --> 00:21:47,097

you know, the dramatic

giving of the Holy Spirit there.

421

00:21:47,639 --> 00:21:50,642

And he says, well,

this is because Jesus was

422

00:21:51,059 --> 00:21:52,602

exalted to the right hand of the father.

423

00:21:52,602 --> 00:21:54,521

That's kingship language.

424

00:21:54,521 --> 00:21:57,482

He's at the throne

beside the father ruling.

425

00:21:57,482 --> 00:21:59,818

This is because he's ruling

426

00:21:59,818 --> 00:22:02,195

and then keep going. Ties

it right to David.

427

00:22:02,195 --> 00:22:05,824

He says, for David

did not ascend into the heavens,

428

00:22:06,908 --> 00:22:09,911

but he himself says.

429

00:22:10,245 --> 00:22:11,580

The Lord said to my Lord,

430

00:22:11,580 --> 00:22:14,583

sit at my right hand

until I make your enemies your footstool.

431

00:22:15,042 --> 00:22:18,045

So that quote from Psalm 110.

432

00:22:18,086 --> 00:22:21,965

And Peter continues,

let all the house of Israel therefore

433

00:22:21,965 --> 00:22:27,179

know for certain that God has made him

both Lord and Messiah.

434

00:22:27,179 --> 00:22:30,182

This Jesus, whom you crucified.

435

00:22:30,724 --> 00:22:32,934

And so it ties it to

436

00:22:34,603 --> 00:22:37,606

it treats

the Ascension as ascending to the throne

437

00:22:38,523 --> 00:22:42,569

and saying, that's actually

why the Holy Spirit can be poured out.

438

00:22:42,778 --> 00:22:44,696

Because Jesus is there.

439

00:22:44,696 --> 00:22:46,198

Yeah. Yeah.

440

00:22:46,198 --> 00:22:46,698

Okay.

441

00:22:46,698 --> 00:22:48,700

So again, that's another angle.

442

00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:50,327

I don't know if I've heard very much.

443

00:22:50,327 --> 00:22:53,789

so Psalms is one and tying it

into the line of David,

444

00:22:54,039 --> 00:22:57,834

but also you're tying

in the Holy Spirit, Pentecost and so forth

445

00:22:57,834 --> 00:23:00,837

as part of this Kingdom of God

446

00:23:00,837 --> 00:23:02,005

package. Package,

I guess that's the right word.

447

00:23:02,005 --> 00:23:03,924

I mean, it kind of comes

with the territory, so to speak.

448

00:23:03,924 --> 00:23:06,927

Is a way of saying it,

I guess you could say.

449

00:23:06,927 --> 00:23:07,427

Yeah.

450

00:23:07,427 --> 00:23:10,430

So I was, you know, looking at that,

I latched on to that in Acts.

451

00:23:11,723 --> 00:23:13,809

And then

452

00:23:13,809 --> 00:23:16,395

Ephesians four

453

00:23:16,395 --> 00:23:17,938

takes that same theme.

454

00:23:19,064 --> 00:23:22,609

verse seven, that grace or a gift

455

00:23:22,609 --> 00:23:26,571

was given to each one of us according

to the measure of Messiah's gift.

456

00:23:27,489 --> 00:23:31,201

Therefore it says, jumps back

to quoting the Old Testament again.

457

00:23:31,660 --> 00:23:34,663

When he ascended on high,

he led a host of captives,

458

00:23:35,247 --> 00:23:38,250

and he gave gifts to men.

459

00:23:38,333 --> 00:23:40,794

In saying he ascended.

460

00:23:40,794 --> 00:23:41,586

What does that mean?

461

00:23:41,586 --> 00:23:44,589

But that he also descended into the lower

regions of the earth?

462

00:23:45,215 --> 00:23:48,176

He who descended

is the one who also ascended

463

00:23:48,176 --> 00:23:51,179

far above all the heavens,

that he might fill all things.

464

00:23:51,972 --> 00:23:55,434

So, you know, Paul,

there is talking about Jesus saying,

465

00:23:55,851 --> 00:23:58,854

yes, there's this ascension.

466

00:23:59,688 --> 00:24:01,773

he can now fill all things with his gift

467

00:24:01,773 --> 00:24:03,650

because he's ascended.

468

00:24:03,650 --> 00:24:07,028

And if we look earlier in Ephesians because he's at the right hand of the father,

469

00:24:08,738 --> 00:24:09,406

and so he gives

470

00:24:09,406 --> 00:24:13,577

the Spirit, and then because of anything

he gave this, he gave the apostles,

471

00:24:13,577 --> 00:24:16,580

prophets, evangelists, shepherds,

teachers are supposed to do this.

472

00:24:16,621 --> 00:24:21,585

It's supposed to result in

in growth, in the body and so on.

473

00:24:22,169 --> 00:24:24,337

But it's the same thing

because he's a king.

474

00:24:24,337 --> 00:24:25,964

He can give the gift.

475

00:24:25,964 --> 00:24:29,217

The Holy Spirit is a mediator

of those gifts

476

00:24:30,510 --> 00:24:32,929

and thus of his role.

477

00:24:32,929 --> 00:24:35,765

so right there you have a tie into,

478

00:24:35,765 --> 00:24:39,603

you know, Kingdom of God

and what do we mean by church.

479

00:24:39,603 --> 00:24:41,563

Well,

480

00:24:41,563 --> 00:24:44,566

if God's rule is coming through

481

00:24:44,941 --> 00:24:47,944

gifts and these gifts are different

and they’re parts of the body.

482

00:24:48,612 --> 00:24:52,657

Well, God's rule is established

when the different parts of the body,

483

00:24:52,657 --> 00:24:55,619

with their different spiritual gifts

are actually working together.

484

00:24:56,453 --> 00:24:56,870

Yeah.

485

00:24:58,371 --> 00:25:00,081

So I'm going to pivot

486

00:25:00,081 --> 00:25:04,336

slightly here and read another quote

or another comment, sorry, that we got on.

487

00:25:04,336 --> 00:25:08,548

A, through YouTube on the episode

we did with John D Martin?

488

00:25:08,548 --> 00:25:11,968

that's the episode called The Importance

of the Kingdom of God.

489

00:25:12,802 --> 00:25:15,555

And this relates to

some of the things you've been saying.

490

00:25:15,555 --> 00:25:17,766

And I'd like to hear your response

to this as well.

491

00:25:17,766 --> 00:25:18,808

So this,

492

00:25:18,808 --> 00:25:21,811

there wasn't a name attached to it,

but this person, wrote this comment.

493

00:25:22,437 --> 00:25:25,065

It's worth noting that the epistles

actually say far less

494

00:25:25,065 --> 00:25:27,192

about the Kingdom of God

than the Gospels do.

495

00:25:27,192 --> 00:25:29,319

Only eight times

does the phrase even appear

496

00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:32,948

between Romans and Revelation,

compared to dozens in the previous books.

497

00:25:33,323 --> 00:25:36,535

Does this mean that the church

lost the emphasis very, very early?

498

00:25:36,701 --> 00:25:40,497

Or might it be that contention

about the law, great struggles with

499

00:25:40,914 --> 00:25:42,791

establishing churches

and keeping them established,

500

00:25:42,791 --> 00:25:47,128

and the most central of all disputes over

who Jesus was,

501

00:25:47,128 --> 00:25:50,674

especially from the Gnostics, became

central in the work that the apostles

502

00:25:50,674 --> 00:25:53,677

and elders were having to do,

as well as in later creeds.

503

00:25:54,511 --> 00:25:57,180

The creeds were often

intended to be the dividing line

504

00:25:57,180 --> 00:26:01,017

between heretical baptisms

and those rightfully within the church,

505

00:26:01,017 --> 00:26:04,145

not a summary of unquestioned

aspects of the Messiah and his work.

506

00:26:04,563 --> 00:26:08,400

I suspect that the great interwoven

character of the of their lives

507

00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,362

from Acts 4 well into the early church

writings, made the idea of the Kingdom

508

00:26:12,362 --> 00:26:13,738

much more of a given,

509

00:26:13,738 --> 00:26:17,242

much less of a question,

or even an oddity, as it is for us

510

00:26:17,242 --> 00:26:21,162

now with all of the departures

from this manner of life in the interim,

511

00:26:21,496 --> 00:26:25,709

these changes now seem to us to be

what normal Christianity looks like.

512

00:26:26,459 --> 00:26:29,379

so a lot going on there in that,

in that comment.

513

00:26:29,379 --> 00:26:32,299

but it seems like he's right.

514

00:26:32,299 --> 00:26:34,384

yeah. Assuming whoever this person was is.

515

00:26:36,136 --> 00:26:38,680

Putting some pretty

big sweeping statements on the table,

516

00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,226

and I'd be really curious how you would

answer this based on the reflections

517

00:26:43,226 --> 00:26:48,315

we've been having as we've been tracing

through your own story, in this episode.

518

00:26:48,398 --> 00:26:48,732

Yeah.

519

00:26:48,732 --> 00:26:51,901

Well, first of all,

I like where the comment ends that,

520

00:26:52,235 --> 00:26:55,238

you know, the Kingdom of God was a given

521

00:26:56,072 --> 00:26:59,075

and that its kingship.

522

00:26:59,534 --> 00:27:01,953

and yes, it is a fair point in this,

you know,

523

00:27:01,953 --> 00:27:04,956

maybe caused me questions,

caused other people questions as well.

524

00:27:05,707 --> 00:27:08,460

You know, Kingdom of God, Kingdom of God

through the gospels.

525

00:27:08,460 --> 00:27:11,379

And then you don't see the language nearly

526

00:27:11,379 --> 00:27:14,341

as much in the epistles.

527

00:27:14,382 --> 00:27:18,219

If you're talking about that

specific phrase, the Kingdom of God.

528

00:27:19,012 --> 00:27:19,429

Okay.

529

00:27:19,429 --> 00:27:22,349

But it is used and it's used.

530

00:27:22,349 --> 00:27:25,018

Paul doesn't have any problem

using the language of the Kingdom of God.

531

00:27:25,018 --> 00:27:26,436

He just doesn't use it as often.

532

00:27:27,562 --> 00:27:31,399

but. There's other words.

533

00:27:32,275 --> 00:27:35,737

The concept there,

is there in other words.

534

00:27:37,030 --> 00:27:40,116

so what does it mean to say Jesus Christ?

535

00:27:42,535 --> 00:27:44,371

Yeah that's a really good point.

536

00:27:44,371 --> 00:27:45,622

You know, different people.

537

00:27:45,622 --> 00:27:48,958

I know there's some

some debates over this.

538

00:27:48,958 --> 00:27:54,255

Some people say well Christ was just

quickly kind of becoming a routine title.

539

00:27:54,255 --> 00:27:57,384

And you know,

Jesus Christ becomes a set phrase

540

00:27:57,717 --> 00:27:58,593

because that's how we think of it now.

541

00:27:58,593 --> 00:28:01,971

Somebody says Jesus Christ,

we just think of it as a phrase like,

542

00:28:01,971 --> 00:28:05,600

you know, somebody might rattle off

Alexander the Great.

543

00:28:06,476 --> 00:28:08,812

Well, if you talk to me about Alexander

544

00:28:08,812 --> 00:28:13,191

the Great, you might or might not mean

that he was actually great, right?

545

00:28:13,191 --> 00:28:15,527

You just refer to him that way

because everybody else does.

546

00:28:15,527 --> 00:28:17,404

Yeah. but,

547

00:28:18,530 --> 00:28:20,365

you know, there's other scholars

think of N.T.

548

00:28:20,365 --> 00:28:23,368

Wright, and more recently,

you know, Matthew Bates

549

00:28:23,785 --> 00:28:26,788

really pushing us on that and saying,

hey, wait a minute.

550

00:28:27,706 --> 00:28:30,583

You know, it's not like Jesus was the

first name and Christ was his last name.

551

00:28:30,583 --> 00:28:34,546

Like, you know, Jesus is the Messiah.

552

00:28:35,714 --> 00:28:38,883

I even saw it

put really memorably said, somebody said,

553

00:28:38,883 --> 00:28:41,886

Jesus Christ is a claim, not a name.

554

00:28:42,721 --> 00:28:44,973

And just for the clarity for the audience.

555

00:28:44,973 --> 00:28:48,435

So Christ would essentially

be the Greek form of the word Messiah.

556

00:28:48,476 --> 00:28:49,769

Am I getting that right?

557

00:28:49,769 --> 00:28:51,146

Or a very similar meaning?

558

00:28:51,146 --> 00:28:54,149

Yes. So,

559

00:28:55,233 --> 00:28:58,236

Christ is related to the Greek word

for anointing.

560

00:28:59,112 --> 00:29:02,073

just like

561

00:29:02,073 --> 00:29:03,450

just like the Hebrew Messiah.

562

00:29:03,450 --> 00:29:05,160

It's related to the idea of anointing,

like.

563

00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,120

The anointed one. The anointed one, right.

564

00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,416

So yeah, you had multiple anointings

in the Old Testament.

565

00:29:11,958 --> 00:29:14,502

But when you say the Anointed One Christ,

566

00:29:14,502 --> 00:29:17,338

you know, it's referring

specifically to as a king.

567

00:29:17,338 --> 00:29:17,922

Yeah.

568

00:29:17,922 --> 00:29:21,259

You know, even David

sometimes referencing Saul

569

00:29:21,259 --> 00:29:24,763

when Saul was king as the Lord's anointed

and then.

570

00:29:24,763 --> 00:29:26,014

Okay, and then, of course,

571

00:29:26,014 --> 00:29:29,017

you get the expectation of the Messiah,

the anointed one.

572

00:29:29,100 --> 00:29:30,852

In the line of David.

573

00:29:30,852 --> 00:29:32,687

So what Jesus is.

574

00:29:32,687 --> 00:29:33,146

Well even, Okay.

575

00:29:33,146 --> 00:29:37,984

Just refer back to the passage

that we both we just, read in acts.

576

00:29:39,235 --> 00:29:41,571

Peter says,

577

00:29:41,571 --> 00:29:44,407

let the house of Israel

therefore know for certain

578

00:29:44,407 --> 00:29:47,410

God has made him Jesus, both Lord

579

00:29:47,410 --> 00:29:50,413

and Messiah and Christ.

580

00:29:50,455 --> 00:29:53,708

Like he has made him

the Christ, made him the king.

581

00:29:53,708 --> 00:29:54,751

The ruler.

582

00:29:54,751 --> 00:29:55,335

Yeah.

583

00:29:55,335 --> 00:29:59,798

You know, because of his death

and resurrection and really,

584

00:29:59,798 --> 00:30:03,718

the ascension is showing that, as a king.

585

00:30:04,219 --> 00:30:07,055

So then all of a sudden, it's totally,

586

00:30:07,055 --> 00:30:10,058

you know, the epistles are saturated

with Kingdom language.

587

00:30:10,683 --> 00:30:12,602

Every time you see the word Christ.

588

00:30:12,602 --> 00:30:16,439

That's a really good point of again,

just to just hammer that again.

589

00:30:16,439 --> 00:30:18,107

I can't remember who

590

00:30:18,107 --> 00:30:22,195

you quoted, but someone's saying that

that Jesus Christ is not just a name.

591

00:30:22,195 --> 00:30:25,281

Like,

that's a title, attached to who he is.

592

00:30:25,573 --> 00:30:27,325

That's a really important piece.

593

00:30:27,325 --> 00:30:32,372

That's a really,

I guess it's we're removed enough.

594

00:30:32,372 --> 00:30:34,457

I mean, we just hear it so often.

595

00:30:34,457 --> 00:30:36,167

We hear it so often. We just.

596

00:30:36,167 --> 00:30:38,545

We just gloss over it. Yeah, exactly.

597

00:30:38,545 --> 00:30:41,923

That's a really helpful chunk,

to pull out.

598

00:30:41,965 --> 00:30:44,592

I'm glad you hit that. Is there? yeah.

599

00:30:44,592 --> 00:30:46,094

Where else would you like to go with that?

600

00:30:46,094 --> 00:30:49,597

Or if you want to continue on

with other influences as well,

601

00:30:49,681 --> 00:30:52,725

kind of help you come,

come through this, wrestle through this.

602

00:30:53,017 --> 00:30:53,768

so the one,

603

00:30:55,019 --> 00:30:55,353

the one

604

00:30:55,353 --> 00:30:59,232

period that really helped me

was being assigned to teach

605

00:30:59,232 --> 00:31:03,444

a youth Sunday school

class, and I had multiple topics to cover.

606

00:31:03,444 --> 00:31:07,282

I decided to use the letter

to the Ephesians because I could

607

00:31:08,575 --> 00:31:11,744

kind of focus on that one letter

and hit most of the topics,

608

00:31:11,995 --> 00:31:14,998

that I was assigned to.

609

00:31:15,123 --> 00:31:20,044

And, you know, I just went through

a period of just trying

610

00:31:20,044 --> 00:31:24,090

to wrap my mind around obviously

Ephesians has lots of long sentences,

611

00:31:24,424 --> 00:31:27,635

lots of tremendously grand language

and so on.

612

00:31:28,011 --> 00:31:32,473

but to wrap my mind around, get my mind

around some of the main tracks,

613

00:31:32,974 --> 00:31:35,977

or threads going through there.

614

00:31:35,977 --> 00:31:38,897

And one of those was just how thoroughly,

615

00:31:38,897 --> 00:31:42,609

you know, that is about this

king and this kind of king.

616

00:31:43,943 --> 00:31:44,235

we already

617

00:31:44,235 --> 00:31:48,323

referenced Ephesians about,

you know, he ascended, gave gifts to men,

618

00:31:48,323 --> 00:31:51,701

which were the gifts of the

of the Holy Spirit.

619

00:31:52,035 --> 00:31:56,372

earlier in Ephesians chapter one,

I'm going to read a short section.

620

00:31:57,248 --> 00:32:00,251

verses 20 to 23.

621

00:32:00,460 --> 00:32:01,753

Breaking into a sentence.

622

00:32:01,753 --> 00:32:05,632

God raised Messiah from the dead,

seated him at his right

623

00:32:05,632 --> 00:32:09,427

hand in the heavenly places,

far above all rule

624

00:32:09,677 --> 00:32:14,182

and authority and power and dominion,

and above every name that is named

625

00:32:14,682 --> 00:32:17,685

not only in this age,

but also in the one to come.

626

00:32:18,227 --> 00:32:21,230

And he put all things under his feet.

627

00:32:21,648 --> 00:32:24,734

So, okay, a little hard

to get more Kingdom focused than that.

628

00:32:25,443 --> 00:32:28,821

And very clearly putting

Jesus as a king, right?

629

00:32:28,863 --> 00:32:31,908

Jesus with the father at his right hand.

630

00:32:33,493 --> 00:32:34,410

and then pulling the

631

00:32:34,410 --> 00:32:37,830

implications there that determine how he's

going to talk in the rest of Ephesians.

632

00:32:38,581 --> 00:32:41,584

So God put all things under Jesus’ feet,

633

00:32:41,584 --> 00:32:44,629

gave Jesus

as head over all things to the church,

634

00:32:45,630 --> 00:32:48,925

which is his body,

the fullness of him who fills all in all.

635

00:32:50,093 --> 00:32:52,011

And then you can trace

636

00:32:52,011 --> 00:32:55,014

through Ephesians just kind of the

637

00:32:55,139 --> 00:32:58,142

the outworking of that idea, like, here's

the King,

638

00:32:58,977 --> 00:33:01,854

here's something

about how this whole church thing works,

639

00:33:01,854 --> 00:33:05,608

how it expresses the fullness or expresses

God's reign

640

00:33:06,693 --> 00:33:07,860

to the powers.

641

00:33:07,860 --> 00:33:10,863

to those,

642

00:33:11,364 --> 00:33:14,117

you know,

authority and power and dominion.

643

00:33:14,117 --> 00:33:16,786

You know how it works out.

644

00:33:16,786 --> 00:33:19,664

Paul in Ephesians does talk about

inheriting the Kingdom of God as well.

645

00:33:19,664 --> 00:33:24,127

So he comfortably uses

Kingdom of God language there.

646

00:33:26,754 --> 00:33:29,340

Some ways, I think maybe

we could do a whole episode just on that.

647

00:33:29,340 --> 00:33:31,342

Like the King and his body.

648

00:33:31,342 --> 00:33:34,345

Take that theme and just,

you know, trace it through Ephesians.

649

00:33:34,512 --> 00:33:39,142

but just to hammer that ascension

650

00:33:40,435 --> 00:33:43,521

and then Ephesians chapter two, you know,

651

00:33:43,521 --> 00:33:47,525

you were dead in your trespasses and sins

and you were made alive.

652

00:33:48,568 --> 00:33:48,818

Okay.

653

00:33:48,818 --> 00:33:51,821

So that's a, if there’s any passage

that is hammering like

654

00:33:52,488 --> 00:33:55,241

you personally were messed up

655

00:33:55,241 --> 00:33:58,828

and you need to be saved

from being very messed up, right?

656

00:33:58,828 --> 00:34:00,872

It’s Ephesians two

657

00:34:00,872 --> 00:34:01,581

well, okay.

658

00:34:01,581 --> 00:34:04,000

Right there is

659

00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,003

Kingdom of God language too.

660

00:34:07,211 --> 00:34:09,797

so remember

Jesus is seated at the right hand.

661

00:34:09,797 --> 00:34:13,384

So not only were we buried with Christ

in baptism and raised with Christ.

662

00:34:14,260 --> 00:34:16,429

It says you are seated with Christ.

663

00:34:18,556 --> 00:34:20,892

So there you have another sense.

664

00:34:20,892 --> 00:34:23,603

People who belong to Jesus

665

00:34:23,603 --> 00:34:26,606

are actually part

of reigning in the Kingdom.

666

00:34:27,231 --> 00:34:29,067

And of course, the way that can work

667

00:34:29,067 --> 00:34:32,028

out is through

God giving the Holy Spirit to believers.

668

00:34:32,070 --> 00:34:34,072

That's how we can be part of it.

669

00:34:34,072 --> 00:34:36,365

But that's Kingdom.

670

00:34:36,365 --> 00:34:39,368

Kingdom saturated right there.

671

00:34:39,452 --> 00:34:43,581

You know,

you were under the power of the devil.

672

00:34:43,581 --> 00:34:46,667

Now you're seated with Christ

in the heavenly places.

673

00:34:47,418 --> 00:34:48,544

work it out.

674

00:34:48,544 --> 00:34:51,172

And it seems like the phraseology

that's being used

675

00:34:51,172 --> 00:34:54,383

is fairly different

from what you see in the Gospels say.

676

00:34:54,634 --> 00:34:58,846

But some of that is also because

Paul is writing after the ascension.

677

00:34:58,846 --> 00:34:59,180

Right.

678

00:34:59,180 --> 00:35:02,475

So like there's another piece here

that's being emphasized.

679

00:35:02,725 --> 00:35:05,561

Am I getting close to,

680

00:35:05,561 --> 00:35:06,646

to some of the differences.

681

00:35:06,646 --> 00:35:08,815

Or maybe that's why we miss it sometimes.

682

00:35:08,815 --> 00:35:10,358

Yes. But

683

00:35:11,943 --> 00:35:13,319

you know, that's

684

00:35:13,319 --> 00:35:16,322

also in the Gospels and actually,

685

00:35:17,156 --> 00:35:20,743

you know, another guest

we've had on here, Paul Lamicela.

686

00:35:21,661 --> 00:35:24,539

And just some of the ways

he's talked about it and, and other people

687

00:35:24,539 --> 00:35:28,501

as well helped me realize like no,

the Gospels have these themes too, like,

688

00:35:29,877 --> 00:35:31,587

yeah,

we did a little clip from one of Paul's

689

00:35:31,587 --> 00:35:34,590

episodes called

The Genealogy of Jesus is Not Boring.

690

00:35:35,091 --> 00:35:38,094

Well, what does the genealogy of Jesus

and Matthew do?

691

00:35:38,344 --> 00:35:41,347

Well, one of the things is it

establishes him as the Son of David.

692

00:35:41,597 --> 00:35:43,599

That's a yeah. You know, kingly.

693

00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:47,728

And then you get that king language going

the whole way, the whole way through.

694

00:35:48,396 --> 00:35:50,606

You know, Jesus as Davidic king,

son of David.

695

00:35:50,606 --> 00:35:52,567

That's through the Gospels as well.

696

00:35:52,567 --> 00:35:53,734

That's a really good point.

697

00:35:53,734 --> 00:35:55,695

I remember when he shared

that on the episode

698

00:35:55,695 --> 00:35:57,446

during the interview I was like,

oh wow. Yeah.

699

00:35:57,446 --> 00:36:00,950

I had not thought of it quite like that,

but that is an important piece.

700

00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,036

yeah. Jesus's genealogy isn't boring.

701

00:36:04,036 --> 00:36:06,247

You know,

you start with Matthew chapter one.

702

00:36:06,247 --> 00:36:09,834

It’s like, why is it starting

with a kind of a dry, boring genealogy?

703

00:36:09,876 --> 00:36:11,752

You know, it's like, oh, that's why.

704

00:36:11,752 --> 00:36:14,881

and there's a lot more to it

that you can find in the, in the episode.

705

00:36:14,881 --> 00:36:15,840

But yeah.

706

00:36:17,258 --> 00:36:20,261

Yeah, if that's boring, it's because

707

00:36:20,678 --> 00:36:23,681

we don't know our Bibles well enough.

708

00:36:24,473 --> 00:36:27,476

If you know your Bible, it's

anything but boring.

709

00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,061

Put it that way.

710

00:36:29,061 --> 00:36:31,147

That's really good.

711

00:36:31,147 --> 00:36:34,275

so maybe just a couple comments

and then I have a couple comments

712

00:36:34,275 --> 00:36:36,235

kind of tying a couple of loose ends.

713

00:36:36,235 --> 00:36:41,282

And then I have, one quote from Romans

that I want to end with

714

00:36:41,282 --> 00:36:44,577

that really makes the point

about the Kingdom in Paul's gospel.

715

00:36:45,453 --> 00:36:46,287

and so one of those loose ends,

716

00:36:46,287 --> 00:36:49,916

we talked about Ephesians,

I would just flag I had the privilege of,

717

00:36:50,458 --> 00:36:53,669

you know, interviewing John Coblentz

we released those recently.

718

00:36:54,003 --> 00:36:56,088

And one of those we titled,

719

00:36:56,088 --> 00:36:58,883

you know, How God Intends Churches

to Exhibit His Glory.

720

00:36:58,883 --> 00:37:02,803

And so there we did get into

some of those pieces from Ephesians about,

721

00:37:03,554 --> 00:37:04,430

you know, what's God?

722

00:37:04,430 --> 00:37:06,724

What's the King

trying to do with the church?

723

00:37:06,724 --> 00:37:07,975

could recommend that.

724

00:37:09,435 --> 00:37:11,896

the other one I'm going to stick in here.

725

00:37:11,896 --> 00:37:14,899

Don't have time to develop it

in this episode, but I

726

00:37:16,192 --> 00:37:19,153

can't quite bear not to mention it.

727

00:37:19,153 --> 00:37:21,113

And that is,

728

00:37:21,113 --> 00:37:24,116

you know, the whole idea of already

not yet.

729

00:37:24,617 --> 00:37:29,997

It's a phrase used by, biblical scholars

or inaugurated eschatology,

730

00:37:30,039 --> 00:37:33,042

if you like a slightly longer,

fancier phrase.

731

00:37:33,709 --> 00:37:36,754

but both of those remind us that,

732

00:37:38,673 --> 00:37:41,300

okay, the Kingdom is here in the sense

that okay, Jesus

733

00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:44,303

has ascended to the throne, we’re

seated with him.

734

00:37:44,637 --> 00:37:46,013

but there's more coming, right?

735

00:37:46,013 --> 00:37:47,640

There's still enemies.

736

00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,935

Not everybody acknowledges

his reign, it’s not public.

737

00:37:50,935 --> 00:37:53,938

It can be hidden.

738

00:37:53,938 --> 00:37:56,774

you know, rebellion still has a place.

739

00:37:56,774 --> 00:37:58,985

There's still death.

740

00:37:58,985 --> 00:38:00,778

you know,

first Corinthians says the last enemy

741

00:38:00,778 --> 00:38:03,781

that will be defeated is death,

and then the Kingdom will be handed over.

742

00:38:04,282 --> 00:38:06,993

there's just an important

frame in all of this.

743

00:38:06,993 --> 00:38:08,911

There's a part of the Kingdom that is now.

744

00:38:09,912 --> 00:38:11,289

And there's more coming.

745

00:38:11,289 --> 00:38:12,456

And there's more coming.

746

00:38:12,456 --> 00:38:15,876

but the piece

I would like to end with here.

747

00:38:16,168 --> 00:38:18,254

specifically because,

748

00:38:18,254 --> 00:38:21,549

you know, it addresses

the Kingdom in Romans of all places.

749

00:38:22,591 --> 00:38:25,761

And I would thank, Matthew Bates,

750

00:38:25,761 --> 00:38:28,848

especially a book like Why the Gospel

and he's written other stuff.

751

00:38:28,889 --> 00:38:31,559

for pointing this out.

752

00:38:31,559 --> 00:38:35,104

the opening of Romans, Paul,

a servant of Messiah

753

00:38:35,104 --> 00:38:38,107

Jesus called to be an apostle,

754

00:38:38,149 --> 00:38:42,611

set apart for the gospel of God,

which he promised beforehand

755

00:38:42,611 --> 00:38:45,614

through his prophets

in the Holy Scriptures

756

00:38:46,365 --> 00:38:47,658

concerning his Son.

757

00:38:47,658 --> 00:38:50,661

Okay, so this is the gospel of God

concerning His Son concerning Jesus.

758

00:38:51,495 --> 00:38:54,707

What does it say about him

who is descended from David

759

00:38:54,707 --> 00:38:57,668

according to the flesh?

760

00:38:57,668 --> 00:38:59,253

Davidic connection

761

00:38:59,253 --> 00:39:01,922

and was declared

to be the Son of God in power,

762

00:39:01,922 --> 00:39:04,925

according to the spirit of holiness,

by his resurrection from the dead.

763

00:39:05,509 --> 00:39:07,678

Jesus Messiah, our Lord.

764

00:39:08,679 --> 00:39:11,849

and the part that Bates

really highlighted there is that part

765

00:39:12,058 --> 00:39:15,061

declared to be the Son of God in power.

766

00:39:16,228 --> 00:39:19,648

And, you know,

he argues that that indicates

767

00:39:19,648 --> 00:39:22,651

that kind of,

you know, installation as King.

768

00:39:24,278 --> 00:39:26,364

Through whom we have received

grace and apostleship

769

00:39:26,364 --> 00:39:29,367

to bring about the obedience of faith

for the sake of his name

770

00:39:29,367 --> 00:39:31,994

among all the nations.

771

00:39:31,994 --> 00:39:34,330

So there you have

right at the beginning of Romans,

772

00:39:34,330 --> 00:39:39,377

which we often think of as, you know,

locus classicus for Paul's gospel.

773

00:39:39,377 --> 00:39:42,880

And he says, it's concerning

Jesus, who was descended from David,

774

00:39:43,214 --> 00:39:45,883

declared the Son of God in power.

775

00:39:45,883 --> 00:39:47,927

And actually,

my job as an apostle is to bring

776

00:39:47,927 --> 00:39:50,930

about the obedience of faith

among all the nations

777

00:39:51,347 --> 00:39:52,890

to this king.

778

00:39:52,890 --> 00:39:56,977

So a little hard to say that

Paul's gospel isn't about the Kingdom.

779

00:39:58,312 --> 00:40:00,648

That's really something.

780

00:40:00,648 --> 00:40:03,651

I've never thought of the beginning

of Romans like that before.

781

00:40:04,485 --> 00:40:07,363

That's interesting. The,

782

00:40:07,363 --> 00:40:07,696

Yeah.

783

00:40:07,696 --> 00:40:10,699

Bringing in those connections

in the context of what

784

00:40:10,866 --> 00:40:11,826

Paul's trying to communicate.

785

00:40:11,826 --> 00:40:13,786

I just hadn't thought of it like that.

786

00:40:13,786 --> 00:40:15,746

That's really helpful.

787

00:40:15,746 --> 00:40:17,706

Was there anything else you would like to

788

00:40:17,706 --> 00:40:20,709

add as we bring this episode to a close?

789

00:40:21,419 --> 00:40:23,295

I mean, just to say that

this is a rich subject.

790

00:40:23,295 --> 00:40:26,340

So I've, you know, shared some of my

journey and things I'm learning.

791

00:40:26,340 --> 00:40:28,634

And, you know,

I think that may resonate with others

792

00:40:28,634 --> 00:40:32,263

because a lot of the questions I've had,

I hear other people asking and so on.

793

00:40:32,805 --> 00:40:35,808

but there's a lot more there. So,

794

00:40:35,850 --> 00:40:39,270

keep learning and studying

and of course, experiencing

795

00:40:39,270 --> 00:40:43,566

the Kingdom of God through through

your own walking with Jesus.

796

00:40:45,234 --> 00:40:45,526

Yeah.

797

00:40:45,526 --> 00:40:48,529

Well I appreciate

that and I appreciate you sharing

798

00:40:48,529 --> 00:40:50,990

the journey

you've had of, of learning these things.

799

00:40:50,990 --> 00:40:54,034

and also to, for anybody listening

or watching this or whatever.

800

00:40:54,076 --> 00:40:55,411

we're going to link

801

00:40:55,411 --> 00:40:57,204

all the things you mentioned down below

802

00:40:57,204 --> 00:40:59,290

so they can continue that journey

on their own as well.

803

00:40:59,290 --> 00:41:00,166

yeah.

804

00:41:00,166 --> 00:41:03,836

There's a there's a lot of good resources

out there for people to, to, to dig into.

805

00:41:03,836 --> 00:41:06,672

So hopefully that'll be helpful

to some people who want to learn more.

806

00:41:06,672 --> 00:41:10,384

I know for myself,

many years ago, actually, you recommended

807

00:41:10,384 --> 00:41:13,721

the Divine conspiracy

to me from Dallas Willard and got a copy.

808

00:41:13,721 --> 00:41:17,016

And that was a big influence on myself

as well as that book by Bercot

809

00:41:17,016 --> 00:41:19,894

that you mentioned as well. The Kingdom

That Turned the World Upside Down.

810

00:41:19,894 --> 00:41:21,896

those are very helpful in my own journey.

811

00:41:21,896 --> 00:41:25,900

So yeah, I think I would echo

what you said there, encouraging people

812

00:41:25,900 --> 00:41:27,985

to dig into this more.

There's a lot more here.

813

00:41:27,985 --> 00:41:31,989

And hopefully this episode is,

a bit of a inspiration.

814

00:41:32,448 --> 00:41:33,324

Yeah. Yes.

815

00:41:33,324 --> 00:41:34,992

There you go. A little bit of inspiration.

Yeah.

816

00:41:34,992 --> 00:41:38,120

Good to go dig into this more and hey,

maybe go and reread,

817

00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,831

you know, Ephesians or something

and look at it through this lens

818

00:41:40,831 --> 00:41:41,749

that you've been giving us.

819

00:41:41,749 --> 00:41:42,750

So yeah.

820

00:41:42,750 --> 00:41:45,628

well, I appreciate you coming

on the podcast today and sharing this.

821

00:41:45,628 --> 00:41:47,046

This has been very interesting.

822

00:41:47,922 --> 00:41:49,048

Thank you.

823

00:41:49,965 --> 00:41:52,343

Thanks for listening to this episode

with Marlin

824

00:41:52,343 --> 00:41:55,554

Sommers on Paul's Gospel

and the Kingdom of God.

825

00:41:55,804 --> 00:41:59,350

We mentioned a previous episode with

we did with John D Martin called

826

00:41:59,350 --> 00:42:01,185

The Importance of the Kingdom of God,

827

00:42:01,185 --> 00:42:04,522

which you can find linked down below

or on the screen here on YouTube.

828

00:42:05,022 --> 00:42:06,232

Thanks again for listening.

829

00:42:06,232 --> 00:42:09,360

If you enjoy what we're doing here

at Anabaptist Perspectives,

830

00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:10,778

we have a monthly email newsletter

831

00:42:10,778 --> 00:42:15,282

which you can sign up for at our website

at anabaptistperspectives.org

832

00:42:15,449 --> 00:42:18,118

We also have an exclusive partners

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833

00:42:18,118 --> 00:42:21,372

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to those who donate on a monthly basis.

834

00:42:21,372 --> 00:42:23,958

And again,

you can join that over on our website.

835

00:42:23,958 --> 00:42:26,794

Thanks again for listening

and we'll catch you in the next episode.