Most of them eventually transitioned to wanting to call us mom, usually, I think, because they hear the other kids call us mom, but that's a big milestone. We just had that with one of our kids today. I dropped him off at school and he pointed to me and this is a kid who normally I dropped him off at school and he cannot like get me out the door fast enough, like does not want to say bye. And he's he pointed to me Talking to his friend and said, that's my mom.

We'll discuss race and how it plays a factor and how we didn't even talk about this topic because we were afraid.

A black executive perspective.

Welcome to a black executive perspective podcast, a safe space where we discuss all matters related to race, especially race in corporate America. I'm your host Tony Tidbit. So before we get started today, we wanted to send out a friendly reminder for you to make sure you check out our partners Code M Magazine, whose mission is saving the black family by first saving the black man. So definitely go check them codemmagazine.com. That is codemagazine.com. So we also want you to check out today. Today we're gonna navigate the layer and gratifying journey. of adoption. I'm accompanied by three inspiring individuals, a single black woman and a same sex couple who are here to share their unique stories and experiences. We'll discuss the motivations behind their decisions, the challenges they face from navigating legal hurdles to overcoming societal prejudice, and how adopting a child has forever changed their lives. Change their worlds. So Dr. Nsenga Burton, Aubree and Laura Henderson, welcome to a Black Executive Perspective Podcast, my sisters.

Thank you.

Hey, I'm glad you're here. Thank you for really wanting to participate and share this story. This is National Adoption Month in November, so this is very important to a Black executive perspective. We want to hear your perspectives on adoption, the good, the bad, and ugly, and more importantly, educate the audience on why adoption Is there is something that they definitely should consider because there are so many kids that are looking for love and they're looking for a home. So we definitely want to dive into it. But before we get into the heavy stuff, ladies. Why don't you all go around and tell us a little bit about where you're currently residing and the makeup of your family. So we'll start with Dr. Burton first.

Hi, so I am currently living in Atlanta, uh, Atlanta, Georgia. I was thinking of my home state, Atlanta, Georgia. I am the mother of an eight year old Kai, which I'm sure many of you who follow me know about because I talk about her a lot. Uh, I have, uh, Had her since she was six hours old. So I adopted her. Um, and I will say I'm an only parent. Um, you know, uh, there is no dad. I am both parents. There is no partner currently. So, uh, it's just me. Uh, and I'm not from Atlanta, so I, my family is elsewhere. Uh, so I really have, uh, The bulk of the care of Chi, although I have created an amazing village that helps me tremendously with her care and upbringing.

That is awesome. We can't, I mean, we want to dive into that village and your story, so I'm looking forward to hearing it. The Hendersons, Laura, Aubree, jump in here. Tell us a little bit, where are you currently residing and tell us about the makeup of your beautiful family.

Okay, cool. I'll start. I was, I'm like looking at Laura, like you want to go? Yeah, yeah. Who's going to start? Um, so hello, my name is Aubree Henderson. I'm, I'm half of this couple. My wife, Laura and I live in Brooklyn, New York. Um, and currently we have 4 kiddos in our home. We're a foster home. So we have some of our 1 of our children we've adopted from foster care. And then the other 3 still currently are in care. So we have not adopted them, but we are an adoptive home. So. You know, we always say that we are going to be the adoptive home for our kids if they're not able to be reunified with family. So currently four kids in our home. Our oldest is 13. We've adopted him. Um, and then we have a 10 year old, a nine year old and an 18 month old.

Wow. Wow. Look at you guys. So when you jump in, you jump in all the way. That's right. That's right. I mean, no, no dipping the toe in the water, right? We're going to do it. We're going to do it. That's right. All right. I love that. I love that. That is awesome. So welcome. So, you know, Laura, I'm going to start with you here. You know, obviously. We don't know, the mainstream of people don't know a lot about adoption. Um, you know, we see things on TV of somebody carrying a baby or, or whether the case may be from international. And we just don't really understand it, right? And, you know, for you guys to come on to share, because there's a lot of things that, You know, most people probably wouldn't want to share when it comes to what they have to go through to adopt a child, right? So the question I have for you, why did you and Aubree want to come on a Black Executive Perspective podcast to talk about this topic?

Well, thank you for the question and thanks so much for having us. You know, we're thrilled to be invited into this conversation because, of course, adoption Is a chance to expand love in your family and love is certainly a core value for AJ. I call Aubree AJ and for AJ and I and, you know, as members of the queer community, we believe in chosen family and so many folks who are queer, you know, we have choices for how we build family and for us, it was like, are we going to have that? Some are we gonna get some, you know, to put it in crude terms. And, uh, and, you know, we've through this journey of foster care. We've learned so much. We've grown so much. And so to get to share our experience, particularly in a space that. Is, uh, you know, about a black perspective that that has a racial lens is really mean for us as white parents as well. So, um, we've had, we're transracial foster and adoptive parents. Our kids do not look like us and, um, that has been a really meaningful, important part of our journey as well. So we're really. Um, excited to be here and talk about that.

That is awesome. Aubree, anything you wanted to add to that or are you good?

No, I'm good. She put it well.

Okay, awesome. Dr. Burton, tell us, why did you want to come on the Black Executive Perspective Podcast to talk about this topic?

Well, A, you invited me, Tony.

That definitely has to have something to do with

it, Uh, be, uh, November is, uh, adoption, National Adoption Awareness Month. And so I always like to do some type of programming around that, um, leading up to it. And so October is an important, um, time. And I know that November, we have a big election coming up. So. So, um, there's probably gonna be less adoption programming this month, um, coming month because of that. So I wanted to make sure that I came on and, um, let people know that adoption is a fantastic option. It is something that is needed, especially if you're talking about children, African American children. You know, and if you're thinking about the foster care system, they're great people like the Henderson's here who are doing amazing work within that system. There's a lot that needs to be done. And there are a lot of kids who actually need help. They need support. They need positive home environment. They need loving. And nurturing and kind parents, people who have empathy, people are going to be nice to them. And so I think it's important to come on to really talk about these issues and to really impart the importance of considering adoption if you are healthy. If you are happy and if you're financially able, um, then I think, and mentally stable, um, and I'm not talking about like anxiety, depression, all this stuff that everybody has. I'm not talking about that, but mentally stay emotionally whole. Um, then I think you should really consider having a child

or listen, I have

adopting a child,

adopting a child. Well, listen, I, number one, I thank you for again, uh, participating to share your stories and so let's you guys ready. It seems like everybody's chomping at the bit. You guys ready to talk about it.

So let's talk about

it. Right? So let's I'm gonna start with the Henderson's first. You know, listen, talk, you know, and you said a little bit of it, but I love to dive in a little bit deeper. What inspired both for you to pursue adoption? All right. And then more importantly, how did you know it was the right path for what you guys wanted to do as a family?

Okay. I can start. Um, and then Laura, you can add, certainly if I miss things, I think, you know, when we, uh, Decided we wanted to start a family. We both had kind of experiences from our upbringing that. Had exposed us a little bit to foster care to adoption. Um, my mom, when I moved out and went to college, I was the oldest of four kids and my mom, uh, fostered and adopted two more kiddos through foster care. Um, after I moved out once I was out of the home. So I wasn't living at home when that happened, but obviously it's, that's happening within my family. I was very much kind of aware of the process and it really felt like something to me that was like, Oh, this is a way we could. Build a family, um, and for Laura, she had exposure to that through her dad working in family court and, you know, kind of having that experience through the legal system and being aware of kind of how those things go from that lens, which I'm sure she can talk about a little bit more. But for both of us, it was. You know, it was 1 way that we could imagine starting a family, and it's just what we decided to go for. And like you said earlier, once we decide to do something, we do it all the way. And so, um, you know, we've gone from, you know, You know, initially, starting out with 2 kiddos in our home and kind of having a number of kids come through our home. Some of them to reunify with family. Some of them still with us are, you know, our daughter is who's been with us the longest we met her and she moved in with us in 2018 when she was 3 and she's 10 now. And so, you know, we, we both had that kind of exposure early on. And I think we decided this was the route we wanted to go. We also had a friend who works in mental health, um, in with kids in foster care specifically, and with families and foster care and knew us and said, you know, I think I think you guys could be really helpful. Great for this. I think you could be a good fit. It's, it's hard, but it's worth it and we need awesome foster parents. And so we decided to check it out and now it's kind of, for me, it's like my central life's work at this point. Um, and I'd say for Laura in a big way too, it's, it's kind of, she always says it's the best thing we feel like we could be doing with our time and energy is loving on our kids.

That is awesome. I love it. I love it. And what I'm hearing, there was some familiarity in terms of, because as you were saying, Aubree, your mother had taken in a couple of kids, right? And then Laura, your father, from a court standpoint, from a legal standpoint, you understand the process and you've still, so this wasn't like unfamiliar in terms of like, we don't know what to do, what a case may, is that correct?

That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we. We kind of knew a little bit about the system, and we knew, um, more about kind of the background of the kids, right? And I think a lot of people, when they're thinking about adopting through foster care, there's like some fear that pops up, like, what if these kids are not okay, or whatever. And, uh, And I've got to tell you, like, the kids are the best part. The kids are the joy. It's, it's the adult grown up stuff of foster care that's the worst and emotionally hard and all of that. But the kids are the bright light, and I think, you know, we both were able to see that, you know, whatever the stigma might be about kids who need help or in care, um, Every kid just wants to be loved. Every kid just wants to be seen. Right. And there is this need out there in a very broken system that, you know, targets and polices certain communities for folks who want to show up just to be there to lift others up and to be supportive of biological families as a whole, not just the kids. So we both felt like, That's something we could do and we could make kind of a life calling. Um, and, and it's been a joy. It's been awesome.

That is great. That is great. Dr. Burton, you know, as you stated earlier, only parent, right. What was the, what inspired you to, you know, go ahead. 'cause you, as you said earlier, I think it was six hours old when you had your daughter. Is that about the, correct. So tell us a little bit about your story. What inspired you to go ahead and go, go into this route?

Yeah, so I. Um, have a grandfather who was adopted and then on my dad's side, and then my mom's side, um, we have other, uh, folks who are adopted on that side of the family. So I'd always been around. Um, my family was always diverse in that way. Um, and so everybody was treated the same. There was no really differentiation. You just kind of learned, um, over the years that, uh, those folks were adopted, but they were always our family. So I always thought in my head, I would. I would adopt. Um, I also thought I would get married and have children, but I never got married and I never met anybody I wanted to have children with.

Um,

uh, which is not sad. Some people, when I say it, they're like, Oh, it's okay. It's okay. Life is good. It's actually fantastic. Very stress free. In that way. And so, um, I decided. Once I got, I got to a certain age that, um, and one of my girlfriends, I have to say this, um, actually a bunch of my girlfriends have adopted, but one of my girlfriends I'm really tight with, she was telling me, do you want to be a young mama or do you want to be an old mama? Which I think is funny. Cause I'm 51 now. So I'm an old mama, which cracks me up. So she kept telling me like through the thirties, girl, you better do it. You know, to cut you off girl, you better do it. Girl, you better do it. You know, they cut you off. Then ain't nobody wants you to raise, you know, old, you know, old ass to raise, young kids, you better do something, you better pull the trigger. So finally I was like, okay, I'm 43. I guess I better, I was enjoying life, traveling all over the world, just having a great time. And I was like, okay. And not that, you know, having kids, you can't enjoy life. It just makes your life different. You still enjoy it. So, um, Anyway, I decided to pull the trigger. I had to fall through. Um, and then, and, and what's interesting, people always tell you when you're adopting, you know, whoever your baby is, you'll know they'll, they'll, the person you're supposed to be with, or he's supposed to be with you. They'll, they'll show up. They'll, they'll be yours. And that is very true. Um, because my daughter and I, people. They are like, you all look alike, you sound alike, you feel like, you know, all the things. Um, but she really is the person I was supposed to be with. So, um, she was born. Actually, I wasn't even I had, I'd been here as a visiting professor in Atlanta, and then I was going back to Baltimore because I was living in Baltimore between the two places. And then long story short, her mother found me. Um, through just kind of like adoption network, sort of, and, um, the rest is history. I, I drove through rain, sleet, and snow to get her. She was born down here. Um, and, you know, we've been together, I mean, for, since she was literally six hours old. That is awesome.

So,

that's what prompted me. I always wanted to be a mom. I didn't know if I wanted to be a wife, but I knew I wanted to be a mom, so. Adoption was the best option for me. And

you know, I'm hearing a theme because same thing you as, as Aubree and Laura stated, um, you had in your family, there was familiarity in terms of adoption, right? So, you know, and again, I, I don't know. So it's just interesting to hear that all three of you And from one way or another, from a family standpoint, there was some familiarity in terms of adoption, so it didn't make it like daunting or it probably was daunting, which we'll dive into, but it wasn't like just I don't know if I would want to do that or in case we be because you've seen it in your family, uh, either from a personal standpoint or even from a legal standpoint. Right? So let me ask you this and Laura, I'll go to you on this. Okay. What's a misconception, a common misconception that people think about adoption?

Uh, well, you know, I think it's funny what Dr. Burton was just saying about like, the kids look like you, they act like you, you know, it's not. but it is my attitude that's coming out of them. Um, so they, um, they are little mirrors and they are my kids, whether they, you know, look like me or not, you can tell who's raising them. Um, and there's joy. Like there's, there's not a difference, whether we've had a kid in our home for six years or six months, like, If you let yourself fall in love with this kid, you're gonna bond with them, whether they're, you know, difficult to parent for whatever reason, you know, that's the thing they, they categorize in foster care, is it, is it difficult to raise kid because of different, um, factors in their life and their story, and we've had some of those, and we're just as much as in love with them, you know, As any other kid we we've had in our home. So, uh, we've had a kid from four days old and then we had a kid move in at nine years old and we love them just as much. So, um, that if you open up your heart, it's going to happen. You're going to fall in love with them and then they'll scare you by by, you know, mirroring you in ways that you wish you didn't have to see. You know,

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Oh, Tony, you're going back to where we were yesterday. I see that good old racism, sexism, heterosexism, all the stuff. Um, Yeah, you know, uh, there is a lot of discrimination against single parents, um, in general in adoption. Um, I would say black women, I mean, it's, it's, you can Google it and not like, you know, conspiracy theory stuff, but like factual data exists, um, about the discrimination that LGBTQ, um, I, uh, plus populations, uh, face, uh, in the adoption process. So one of the challenges I had was being a single person. Many people who are making decisions, and this is something that people don't understand. The adopt, the mother, the parent of the biological parent is the one who makes the choice, who says yes to the actual adoptive parent.

So

they, it's really what they want. Like you can say, Oh, I want a child. I want to have blue eyes. I want to have this. You can have all of those things in your head or whatever. Ultimately the, the, the biological parent is making the decision about who and where their baby's going to go. All right. And so I didn't know that. I think a lot of people don't know that because you're just, you know, you're thinking, okay, well, I'm adopting a baby. So, of course, what I want might, might, might go into a

store, picking somebody out. Right? That's the thought process that people think. Right?

Right. Right. It's not that, you know, it's a lot like you do get to say some things like, you know, some kind of medical issues that, you know, are you, are you, you know, Able to deal with some of that can be quite expensive things of that nature, but as a whole, like, you really don't have too much saying it. And honestly, I didn't all I said was healthy. I didn't care about gender. Um, I didn't care about anything other than, um, you know, a couple of different categories. Smart. I said, please intelligent. You know, I didn't know I was gonna get a newborn. I didn't know, but whatever. Um, you know, those kind of like my wish list, because, you know, I'm a PhD, a professor and stuff, some academics and stuff. Um, but my point is, they make the decision. But what's interesting is when you are a single parent, a lot of times you lose out to 2 parent households. Um, a lot of people who are making these decisions usually come from disenfranchised and vulnerable, uh, situations and so they, uh, assume, and this is an assumption, um, that if you have 2 parents, and if you have 2 incomes, then the child's life is going to be better. And that's a, you know, I won't say it's an incorrect assumption, but it is an assumption. Right? Um, So when you are a single parent, especially as a black woman, um, with all the stereotypes around being a black woman and single black women, many of them are negative and socially constructed. They're not really rooted in anything real. Um, you know, you have to deal with that too. So it's like, do I want, um, this single black, do I want my child raised by a single black woman? Even if I was financially able to do it, it didn't matter. It didn't matter. All the things around. So you have that, um, that kind of, uh, uh, issue that you face. And then, um, I think one of the adoption agencies that ended up not going with, um, was discriminatory in the sense that I, she kept asking me, like, how are you going to, cause this at the time I was doing it, I was very high profile, um, you know, I was, uh, editor at large for a major, um, online, um, news publication. And. Um, I had a column in a, a major online, you know, I was very high profile. And so she kept asking me, uh, well, how are you going to do this? Like how, how you don't have time to do this. Uh, you, you know, just very kind of, uh, projecting kind of these old school ideas on to me. Um, I wasn't married. I have a high profile demanding job. How on earth was I going to be able to raise this child? Something that they wouldn't, you Well, maybe they do, but I didn't see them asking, um, uh, two parent households, like, you know, both of you work full time. So how are you going to make time to take care of this child or what have you? Um, so it's different things like that. Um, it's not only race, it's also gender. I would imagine I'm straight, but I imagine it's sexuality. Um, because people also assume if you're single and you're adopted that you're gay. Um, because I get a lot of that as well, like people asking me about my sexual identity. Um, uh, as well as my gender identity. Um, my hair was different then, and people are stereotypically gay. Motivated. So they were asking me these dumb dumb ass questions. Excuse my language. I cut a little bit. Um, and so all of that was, I did not expect or anticipate any of that or not any of it, but I just was surprised that people care so much about socially constructed ideas that really don't matter at the end of the day in terms of having a healthy and happy and well raised child, you know? Yeah. So those are some of the things you deal with.

Aubree, let me, let me, let me, let me turn it towards you. Same question. All right. Same sex couple. What was some of the, you know, legal barriers that you guys encountered? Um, and, and as Dr. Burton talked about the sexism, racism, you know, all the different things that she did. I'd love to hear from you guys as well. And, and, and Laura jump in when you can.

Yeah. I mean, so for us, it's a little different since we went the foster care route, you know, you become certified as a foster parent with an agency. Um, our agency is new alternatives for children, which I'll shout them out a bunch because we love them. If you're in New York City, and you're considering fostering, you should check them out for sure. Um, but, you know, for us, it's and for most foster parents, to my understanding, it's a process where you go through a certification. Ours. Was pretty fast, but took, like, 6 months, you take classes, you do a lot of the same home study type stuff that that you do when you're doing adoption. So you have somebody come in, like. You know, look through your home, make sure it's safe. You have all these safety regulations you have to, you know, put in place. They you have to submit your household budget. Um, so they can know that you make enough money to support a child, or that you have a source of income somehow. Um, there's just, there's a lot of kind of those hoops that you have to jump through to sort of like. Prove yourself that you can be a suitable parent that I know our friends who have gone the adoption route have described similar things, but for us, you know, what's interesting is once you are certified and licensed, then it becomes actually in foster care. More of a process of being able to feel the requests for kids to come into your home because you start getting calls of, hey, this child needs a home. And for us, it's the foster care agency. Who's making the decisions about which home could be a good fit. So it's actually not the biological parents have no say whatsoever in at least in the case of our agency is my understanding, which is, which is, and it's a totally opposite side of the spectrum that I actually, in many ways, think is problematic. Um, It's, you know, the child welfare system is one that also disempowers, you know, families who are involved with it from the biological family side. And so, so there's that piece. Um, but so, you know, and our agency also takes a big stance on, and I believe the state of New York takes a big stance on being supportive of queer families and queer foster parents and queer foster children and ensuring that there's not discrimination that happens and they have sort of systems and structures in place around that. So our experience from that lens. Has been really good. We actually, you know, have had meetings with biological parents, um, where there has been like an advocate from the foster agency there on our behalf to support us in that space in case something homophobic was said, right? Um, but also, I think, like, nothing that I say can be taken away. There's it's always filtered through a lens of. Our whiteness, right? Laura and I show up looking very much and behaving very much. And also having the background of a lot of the people who work at the foster care agency, a lot, we have a ton in common with our, all of our caseworkers, right. Our people, we could have gone to grad school with, and there's a, there's a sort of way that we're privileged, I think in some ways, and I, you know, I think a lot of it is unconscious, but that is something where I, I can't Dr. Burton would have had that same experience that we had being, being a foster parent and feeling that level of supported. Um, so that's just, yeah, um. Yeah, but I, yeah, I think Laura, do you have anything to add to that?

Well, I was just going to say, I was going to underline what she said about us living in New York State, that takes some of these things about discrimination very seriously. And what's sad in our country is that, you know, adoption, foster care, these are systems that are used as political tools. And in certain states with, you know, conservative leadership, or where, you know, You know, fundamentalist religious organizations have strongholds like the legal landscape and the approach is very different and like, and it's really important when you're thinking about. You know, whether it's foster care or adoption, researching the agency that you're going to work with and understanding who funds them and how they're supported and what they believe philosophically, because that will change your experience, whether, you know, you're a person of color, whether you're a queer person, like, you see it in the news about lawsuits over who gets to be a parent and all of that. And unfortunately, that's just not the case. Baked in to our political culture and this experience of parenting.

Let me just, and Dr. Byrd, I want to come to you because I'm going to ask you a similar question, but I just want to make sure I'm clear what I heard. What you said, Aubree, is that at the end of the day, you guys are a same sex couple, right? But what I'm, what I was hearing, And again, it's foster care, so it's a little bit different than adoption. But what I was hearing is that because you're two white people, at the end of the day, the biases, the privilege of being white doesn't really, uh, affect the, the, or, or, or causes an issue in terms of same sex or anything like that. Is that what I'm hearing basically?

I think it's that for me, our, our whiteness has played more of a distinctive role in our experience than our queerness has, I think is what I'm saying. That's

okay. And so I heard it correctly. Exactly. That's what I thought. Right. So that's what, okay. Interesting. Dr. Burton, same question. Do you feel race And I think you spoke a little bit about it earlier, but you said gender and stuff. Do you feel race in the process affected you in any way throughout this, throughout the process when you're adopting your daughter?

Oh yeah. I mean, from the adoption fairs, when you first get there, um, and they have a list of kids and they have them categorized by race and then they got the black kids at the bottom and they have the cheapest amount next to them. When you say cheapest amount,

what do you mean by that? It looks like a

slave trade, like those old slave, um, documents that you see where they have people and they have their eyes and their teeth and their whatever, and then they tell how much they cost. In adoption fairs, some of that still happens. And so they'll have a list of kids, it won't be the actual kids, but say a white, you know, white newborn or whatever, this is how much it'll cost you. Uh, whatever, Latinx, biracial, such and such, whatever. The black kids are always at the bottom, and they're always the cheapest.

For real.

So it starts there. That was the first time where I was just like, I can't do this. I can't be a part of the system. Yeah.

Yeah. Because then it seems like so, so, so, so hold on.

It's it's it's nervous.

Yeah. Yeah. Let me just hold on. Let's just put a pin here because I just want to make sure I'm clear on this. So what I'm hearing, you finally, I want to love a child. I want to bring love and put a child in a beautiful family and help nurture and bring them up. And then when you start looking to go through the process, you get a menu. Okay. And I'm, I'm kind of, you know, simplifying it. You get a menu. of white, uh, and dollar signs. Okay. And then all the way down at the bottom of the menu, or even if it's in the middle, it doesn't really matter, but the black is, and it's the cheapest.

Yes.

So this is how we, this is the adoption system. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a little befuddled and shocked by that. That's, I mean, so how do you, how do you get so back to you? I cut you off because I'm a little shocked. How do you even go back to the love part? Because right off the bat, you, you coming in loving, but then you see that, wait a minute. And then, so now even the person that you do adopt this, a devalue system on that individual based on their race right off the bat.

Right. And then, um, I think that it's, you know, being a member of a historically disenfranchised group, 1 of the things that people don't give us credit for is our ability to navigate systems that are set up against us. And so, because we're able to. Continue through the process because we've been, we've been living life. This is what we do. We continue through the process despite, or in spite of, because we have to get these things that we need in order to live the lives that we want to have. Right. And so the same thing is adoption is not different from that. Like when you see that just like, Oh my God, how can I be a part of this? Can we go again?

Yeah, here we

go. You ask the questions, you write the letters, you raise the hell, but you keep moving. Right. Um, the woman who did my home study. Uh, who was love, I loved her a lot until I saw the final home study and she wrote about me in a way I was like, is this a plantation movie? Like what are you like? I literally made her re rewrite it. I said, who is this? What

was how did she frame you what was the narrative high level she

described as a mammy Like so she was like she's this heavyset Um, uh, kind of like quiet. I wish my dogs would be quiet right now. Uh, quiet. Um, uh, and I had another dog, uh, me, rest in peace back then. And I love me. That was my first dog. Like I had as an adult. So I just treated her like my little thing. And, you know, the way she described me, it was like the behavioral and physical characteristics reflected that uh,

Gone with the wind in a way.

Are they killing each other? Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, it reflected, it reflected each other, uh, it reflected that I think I was hyper aware of it, obviously because I'm a media scholar and I teach those things, right? So I'm looking at it and I was just like, who is this? And she's like, well, what do you mean? And it was on the first page. I said, if you. This way, no one is going to pick me because I sound like I'm trapped in a plantation from the last century. So, I made her write it over and I gave her suggested language and she, I told you, she was a lovely lady in many ways. I think that somehow sometimes how people. Perceive us relatively, as opposed to who we really are, they just don't see you. So she saw the nice house, she saw the professor, she saw the, she saw the things, but she didn't see me. Right. And she came to my house like three times or what have you. Hold on, let me tell my dogs to shut up real quick.

Wow. Wow. So, so let me, I just want to, so let me, what's, what's you ladies thoughts on what you just heard Dr. Burton? And obviously it's different because you guys are in the foster care system, but what was your thoughts on that?

I think it's like, sadly that it doesn't, doesn't surprise me or shock me necessarily. Um, it's horrifying, of course. I think it, it, it aligns a lot with, you know, we have a, a close friend who is a black woman and would, you know, would be an only parent who, you know, has had kind of like similarly challenging, really crappy time with kind of that process of becoming, like going through the, the adoption. Agency and jumping through all the hoops and having the home studies and, you know, the, that sort of experience. And so, you know, it, it aligns with a lot of what we've heard her share and what I've read, um, you know, black adoptive parents share specifically, um, and is, you know, I also hear that. And I just think that could not be more. Different from the experience that we had, and I think that there's a lot of reasons for that. But I think. White privilege is a big component of it. I think, like, you know, there are there are many ways that, like, we feel like, oh, we couldn't have been. Facilitated through the process any faster, right? And some of that potentially is because it's foster care and there's a need for foster parents and all of that. Right? But I, I think it would be foolish to say that there's no, there's no role that. Our race plays in that.

Did, did you guys, Laura, this is for you. Did you guys, did, was there any, did you feel, uh, any discrimination even in the foster care, um, platform because you guys are same sex or you, it was, was there anything in that, that you felt like a regular couple wouldn't have to deal with this regular heterosexual couple wouldn't deal with?

Well, you know, um, In our process of being licensed and certified as foster parents, we have not, we did not experience that, but a lot of that is because of New York State and some of the laws around anti discrimination that we're benefiting from here. Um, but, you know, in New York, the discrimination that we have is more, um, it's, it's more under the layers, right? It is covered under the rug a little bit with. Neighborhood segregation and other things that are happening here, um, and that most kids in care are black here, or, you know, and most, um, foster parents here are, in our experience, I actually don't know the data on this, but in our experience, a lot of the other foster parents are like grand, grandparents age, you know, it's a lot of Caribbean grandmothers who raise their kids, and they want to raise another generation of kids so they get into it. So, We benefit by being somewhat different than your average foster parent here, but that's sad to me because that, um, way of understanding families and of being an elder in your community and continuing to care for kids is a model that we would like to follow as parents. I mean, that is not necessarily that is from white culture, but it's something that we're learning from other cultures and see the value of generational loving care. Um, so, so We see that, you know, the other folks get treated differently, um, by the system itself or by, by the, uh, you know, admins of the system. But the other, the thing we have actually experienced is that, um, bio parents are very hesitant about us at times as queer parents. Bio parents in New York want to have, you know, a mom and a dad for their kid or the, you know, but once they get to know us and they see that we really love the kids and their kids are treated well and safe. We moved past that very quickly, but we have had some funny, awkward conversations about sexuality, um, with our kids parents, and it's been very respectful, and it's, and we've built ties with them, but that has been a thing that we've learned a lot from.

Number one, thank you for sharing that. Let me ask you this. I mean, I know it's different. Then I'm going to go to you, Dr. Burton. So in terms, you have four kids, right? Different ratio makeup. How do you, and then look, I get it that they're coming maybe out of a situation that's not that great. Um, how do you, how do you talk about we're a family?

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How do you, you know, nobody looks each, nobody looks like each one another, right? You guys, same sex. Talk about how you create that, that, that love and, and because they go to school, let's be fair. Right? And they're loving you guys and they see you mom and this. So talk a little bit about the conversations that you have with the kids, right? To, to reinforce that this is a family. This is no different than any other family love and stuff to that nature. I love to hear you guys feedback on that.

Yeah. I love this question. I think, um, I mean, we spend a lot of time and energy on this. I think a big part of it for me And this is how I think about foster parenting in general, is that like, we very much view ourselves as therapeutic parents, right? It's above and beyond. I think when, you know, when it's a different experience than when somebody gives birth to a child and has that child for, you know, has that connection from the beginning and not to say that that type of parenthood is not without its challenges. It certainly is. But I think there is a way that we try to be intentional about being therapeutic. And it's very much in the same way that like. If someone attended a support group, you begin to feel a kinship with the people in that support group, even if you've all come from different backgrounds, because you are coming together to a supportive healing space. And that's what I really want our home to be like. And that's what it ends up feeling like, I think, for our kids, from what they've shared. A lot of that comes from creating shared traditions together. Right. We have, you know, for a long time, we did pizza Friday in our house where every Friday we would order pizza and something like that feels really simple, I think, but it's something that the kids connect to and they say, Oh, this is our shared tradition as our family. Right. We have many things like that, where it's about saying, okay, we're operating as a unit, right. It's also about how we frame ourselves as their caregivers, right. It's that, you know, they don't have to call us, you know, if they don't want to, th first names, that's fine. transition to wanting to I think because they hear us mom, but that's a big had that with one of our him off at school and he And, and this is a kid who normally I drop him off at school and he cannot like get me out the door fast enough, like does not want to say bye. And he pointed to me talking to his friend and said, that's my mom. And that's like a huge milestone in foster care and an adoption, right? Is that moment of like, oh, this child believes this and will go into a social environment where kids are relentlessly picked on. I mean, like, correct kids, kids are, you know, Mean to each other at times. And so our kids, they get picked on, right? Our oldest son, he's 13. He's a young black man. He, his kids or his, his classmates, kids in his class see us and are like, you have two moms and they're white moms. Like, are you kidding me? Right. And he, he feels a lot of embarrassment around that, but I think. For us, we don't shy away from that. We want to talk to him about that. We want to draw that out. We want to say, what can we do to support you? We get the, we get what it feels like to feel different. We understand that in our own ways. We want to support you. And so it's it's a big part of it is also about not shying away from what's hard, right? Not pretending that the difficult stuff isn't there Not pretending that they didn't all have a traumatic event that caused them to be removed from their biological family And maybe cycle through multiple foster homes, right? But acknowledging that and saying like it's okay to feel all the things that you feel about that. You're safe here.

That is awesome And laura, I don't see if you want to add anything too, but Aubree. I got a follow up question Real quickly So today, was it today when you dropped him off at school? And he said, you're my, this is my mother. Okay. How did that make you feel?

There's no better feeling. I walked out of the school and I texted Laura immediately like, Oh my God, you're never going to believe this. Right. Because you, you also just see the trajectory for kids, right? They, they go from, you know, often kids who are especially kids who have come from foster care, but also kids from adoption. Right. There's trauma that is just inherent in that that you're not in it. That's true. Whether you adopt a child as the moment they're born, or 10 years in right there, being separated from your biological family is a traumatic event. And so for our kids, there's just there's a process where they're gonna. Protect themselves by being quickly by pushing you away by saying some of just, I mean, we've heard some of the meanest stuff from our kids, but we know at the end of the day that they're testing to see if we'll stick around. Right. That's what it is. And so

true. It is. So there's

that feeling of like, Oh my God, he, he believes that I'm going to keep dropping him off at school and every day saying, Hey, I love you. Have a good day. Even if he doesn't say it back, it's not conditional on him saying it back. Right. And so there's something really deeply rewarding and like nourishing and healing for me as a parent to really feel that like, Oh, he believed it. That

is awesome. Laura, I would

just say, you know, like, It's not a zero sum game. It's not us versus the biological parents, right? So our kids will always miss and long for their moms, their bio moms. And as some of them we have a relationship with and we see them all the time or we have, You know, structured court mandated visits with, right? So some of them see their families all the time. And, and our kids who don't grieve that all the time, and it comes up all the time. And it's, it's not, that doesn't hurt me. That doesn't mean they love me less. That means they wish desperately that we all could be together in one happy family. You know, like one of our kids used to ask, like, Can my mom just move in with us? Like, why can't she live here, too? And I think some of that is is a recognition in like child My mom needs safety and love, too. So what I'm getting, she needs. Um, and so, this is about, you know, like, foster care and adoption is about expanding families, not, you know, it should not be about separating or keeping away. from certain members of the family.

You guys gonna make me cry on this show here, right? I'm trying not to, okay? But this is beautiful. Dr. Burton, talk a little bit about, you know, the conversation or the communication that you have with your daughter in terms of family and, you know, did you tell her she was adopted? I would love to hear that.

Oh yeah, yeah. I told her, um, my Kai is very bright. And, um, I told her from the very beginning that, um, cause you know, they come home and they talk about, Oh, mommy, when I was in your belly, right? Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

Right. And so I said, no, no, some of the, you know, some babies grow in their mommy's bellies, other babies grow in their mommy's hearts. Right? And so that's how we started the conversation. And, um, I've always told her that she was adopted. Um, yeah. Her biological mom would have closed adoption, but I pushed for an open adoption because I just feel like kids need to know where they come from, where they got their face from. You also want to know medical history because in the adoption process, they do ask, but they only go back to, like, they'll ask about the parents and the grandparents, but they'll ask about aunts and uncles and all that kind of stuff. And, um. So, I just thought it was just a better idea to at least be able to contact her, which was great because we've actually, because I push for it. We're actually great friends now. And, um, uh, we share time and space together and all the things and we have phone calls and FaceTime calls and all the things like that too. And so when I talk to my daughter, you know, you want to do it when it's age appropriate, like you have to use age appropriate language and what have you. Um, but she knows I'm mom. And, um, I love her unconditionally. She loves me unconditionally. It's just us. So we're super tight. Um, it's funny, uh, because we have such a strong bond, you know, that even other people can see. And, um, so I think I'm very blessed in that way because I know even people who have biological children sometimes don't bond with them ever. And sometimes not for years at a time or what happened. She just always had it. She just came to me and she's been with me, um, ever since. So. You know, we talk very transparently. Her brother, she's a biological brother who was born after her. My friends adopted him. So when you talk about expanding families, Laura, you are not like it is true. So now we have this, well, we call it the Kumbaya effect where we're all together, they 10 minutes from me. We do, um, some holidays together. We have play dates. We're in the same Jack and Jill group, um, chapter, all the things we, we just kind of do together to make sure that we keep them together, even though they live in separate households. Right. So, um, it's just, about honesty, transparency, and making sure that the language that you use is age appropriate. And, you know, never, um, I never want her, you know, her mother, biological mother gave me the greatest gift I've ever had. So I never want her to think poorly of her because I also understand that she'll also think poorly of herself because that's how our psychology works. Um, and so I always try to uplift, inspire. And make sure that we have positive interactions, um, at all times.

That is, I mean, again, I mean, you guys gonna push me over the top and tons of tears in a minute, right? I was trying to hold back and then Dr Burton, Oh my God, you know what I'm learning and I'm going to your specific journey, Dr Burton, you know, when you said that, um, she wanted to close adoption and you push for an open adoption, right? And The good news is, is luckily you did because at the end of the day, we're all human beings and what we think we want or we would never do one day, we end up changing, right? And, you know, I've heard stories of people who had closed adoptions, but then later on, they want to find their biological. Kids, right? And then the parent, uh, agreed to that. The adopted parent and now is an issue because now they might not have told them that they were adopted because it was a closed thing. And now this opens up a whole can of worms, right? And so I love the way you, you, you really push for that. But more importantly, I love from all of you guys about the transparency The communication, you know, being intentional as you were saying, you know, Lauren Aubree about dealing with these issues that come up and not running from them. Because a lot of times when we try to hide, and I don't want to use the word hide, but when we try to, you know, deflect or don't bring up certain things or don't deal with them, uh, any type of confrontation right off the bat, it only gets bigger. Right. And it turns into something that could have been handled from the get go. So the question I have for you guys is we get ready to close. I want to hear from each of you because they're I think Dr Burton, you said yesterday, 400, 000 kids that are waiting to be adopted. And I think is that correct or something of that nature? I believe only 10 percent of kids end up Half a million. Only 10 percent of kids end up getting adopted when you break down the ratio barriers. It becomes even smaller than that based on outside of for people of color. Um, you know, the foster home, um, mechanism is insane. Um, there's a ton of kids that are in foster home because parents. For whatever reason, and back to your initial point, Dr. Burton, when you were like, look, I, I didn't, I didn't want a husband, but I knew I wanted a baby, right? And there's people who have babies and then end up don't wanting them. Okay. Or they can barely take care of themselves. And then they, they end up having children and they can't take care of the children. Right. And so I would love for you guys to tell the audience why from an adoption standpoint, from a, uh, a foster home standpoint, why. What advice would you give them and why this could be a, a, a, a great alternative for them, regardless if they have biological kids or regardless if they want to, you know, they, they don't have kids. Uh, I'll, I'll start with you first, Laura.

I mean, the easy answer is there's no greater joy. I mean, it's, I'm corny when it comes to this about why you should foster or adopt it to love, fall in love with a human being who's not Your kin who's not your blood and make them your blood and kin is, um, a heart expanding project, and it has so much joy. And, uh, we often get asked, you know, I have other kids, is it going to be okay if we foster or adopt? And our answer is yes! And show them, model for them that experience too, that our family can add. To us in this way and can grow in love. So it's just it's the best experience. That's the easy short answer

Awesome. Awesome. Dr. Burton.

Um, yeah I think I want to say 2 things I didn't say before for people who are thinking about adopting 1 of which is that there is a cut off sometimes at age 50. so you really said I was joking about her pushing me along or whatever. But for adoption agencies, the 50 is the cut off in the United States, typically when they won't let you adopt anymore. And you also have to go through health screenings to make sure that you're going to be around to actually take care of the. The child, and then you have to have a will and a succession plan if anything happens to you. So do those, those 3 things have to be in place in order for you to adopt. But what I will say for, um, black people, we've been doing this our whole lives, especially in this country. Actually, before we got here, but certainly in this country, taking in children. We were separated from whether we talk about slavery, whether we talk about, you know, Jim Crow laws and people being incarcerated unjustly. And you know, you got a whole family that has to be taken care of. Whether you talk about people losing a home to a fire at a time of black people couldn't get insurance, which people don't talk about those things we couldn't get. Um, and so there's no way to replace the home. So you can afford to buy another one or build another one and taking in whole families for that. So we've been doing this work our entire lives. So we are actually. ready to be foster parents ready to be adopted parents because we take people in kids in all the time. That is part of our culture. Um, and it doesn't matter. Just like Laura, I think I think it was Laura who said it Caribbean folk. African folk, anywhere from the continent of Africa, any country, pick one, the United States, the UK, we do this all over the world. It is part of who we are as a people. So don't think of it as something different and don't, um, map, um, white patriarchal, uh, Biblical constructions onto your life. This is who we are. This is what we do. And we should not let that be defined by these, um, other, um, and I hate the other people, but by these, uh, systems of power that make us go against who we are and what we do. Um, and so I say this to you. We do this anyway. Why not? If you can afford it again, if you are mentally and physically healthy, um, if you are full of love and kindness and patience and compassion and empathy, adopt a child, foster a child, um, and help, help children out. Um, I have a friend now her, her, uh, son's girlfriend is, um, in a, an orphanage, you know, uh, in an orphanage. And so she's helping her. Go to college. She's helping her have a place to stay when she ages out. A lot of kids age out of the system. You can help them then if you can't help them now, give them a place to stay. I know in the A. U. C. they have, um, a program where kids who have aged out of the system and they don't have places to go during the holidays where they can come and be together and, uh, be with families during the holiday. So there are different ways that you can help in different ways that you can be a part of these. These, uh, systems or, um, to meet these needs where you don't have to necessarily become a foster parent per se, or an adoptive parent, um, but there are ways that you can support children, um, through the different stages of their lives. So just kind of think creatively about it as well, particularly because we're already doing this work.

Right, right. Aubree, you get the last word.

Yeah, I think I love so much of what's been said. I think I would just add. You know, from a queer perspective, like Laura was saying earlier, there is just something so special and so meaningful about this expansive idea of family and of chosen family that I think is part of what makes You know, we all sort of have had a different exposure to it where, you know, adoption, foster care are like part of our normal maps for how family is created. But I think. If even if you're entering into it from a place where you haven't been exposed to that, you haven't experienced that just inviting people into a space where you think more expansively about what family means to you, right? What it means to have a family and to create a family. And I think, you know, I, I grew up very much. I grew up. Um, Dr Burton also as the child of an only parent and who was, you know, as I described, was always kind of taking in. People who needed to be taken in, whether that was literally come live with us, whether that was just come be safe in our home. And I like the idea that like that I'm continuing that in my family and in the way I'm creating my family now. And I know that my kids are going to grow up to have a similar outlook and view because of what they have experienced being a part of our family. And so I think to me, it's, yeah, it is rejecting that sort of like white hetero patriarchal conception of like the nuclear family that, you know, can only look a certain way. And I think as queer people too, like we know a lot of us get ejected from our families because of who we are. And, you know, that's not what's happened for any of our children, but you know, you know what that, you know what that pain is as a queer person to be rejected in that way, or to be separate from your family and to, you know, be able to provide care and to provide love and safety. For kids is really, there's nothing like it.

That is awesome. So listen, I said, I had, I got one final question. I'm going to ask you guys a question. I want one word. I don't want nothing else. I want you to answer it with one word. Okay. Based on your experience, your journey, the ups, downs, good, bad. From adopting Dr. Burton to foster parenting, um, from the Hendersons, what is the one word? throughout that journey that you will say about it. I'll start with Laura first. One word. All right. Aubree.

Healing.

All right. Dr. Burton

resiliency.

I love it. Hope. Oh, I love it. You guys just killed it. You killed it. I loved it. And you encapsulated in those one words, this whole episode about adoption foster care. So I want to thank you. From the deep depths of my heart for you guys coming on a Black Executive Perspective podcast, sharing your journey, sharing your story, educating our audience on this topic. And I don't want you to go anywhere else because you guys are going to help us with our call to action. So I think it's now time for Tony's Tidbit. All right. So the tidbit today is this. Every adoption story is a tale of turning. Waiting into welcoming challenges into cherishing while adopting one child won't change the world for that child, their entitled world will change. And you heard a lot of that today from our fabulous guests, so I don't want you to forget this. To always check out every Thursday, need to know with Dr. Nsenga Burton. You don't want to miss it on the Black Executive Perspective Podcast with Dr. Burton dives into timely and crucial topics that shape our community and our world. Tune in to gain unique insights and deep understanding of the issues. That matter every Thursday on a black executive perspective need to know with Dr. Nsenga. I hope you enjoyed today's episode, becoming family, the challenges and triumphs of adoptive parenting. And so now it's time for BEP's call to action. Our goal. is to decrease all forms of discrimination, and we call that LESS. L E S S and our esteemed guests are going to help us with our call to action. Aubree.

So L is for learn or educate yourself on racial and cultural nuances and the shout out I would give here is we've heard a lot from the perspective of adoptive and foster parents, um, which is awesome. I would encourage folks who want to learn more to seek out perspectives from adoptees from people who have been adopted, who have been through that experience from that perspective. There's there's lots out there. If you just search. adoptee perspective. Um, you'll find a lot and you know, sit with that. It can be really challenging, but I think that that is really helpful.

E is for empathy. Empathy helps understand diverse perspectives. Empathy for me is about learning. It's about imagination. As we grow our ability to imagine what it's like in somebody else's shoes, we can be more kind, more caring, create a more generous world. So E is for empathy.

S is for share your insights. And enlighten others. So, I mean, you've heard this podcast, um, you know, you've gotten inside information that you may not have had before you had access to. So make sure you share it with people. Make sure you share the positive. And I know I came with some of the negative, Tony, I didn't mean to shake you up.

But

the reason is because we share, we want to be transparent and we want to make sure that you have as much information. In this limited amount of time, um, to help you understand better, understand foster care, fostering, uh, uh, children and adopting children.

Absolutely. And then the final S is for stop. You want to stop discrimination as it walks in your path. So if Aunt Jenny says something at the Thanksgiving table, that's inappropriate, you say Aunt Jenny. We don't say that we don't believe that and you stop it immediately. So if everyone is listening to a black executive perspective, podcast can incorporate less L E S S. We'll build a more fair and more understanding world. And more importantly, we'll all be able to see the change. That we want to see because less will become more. So remember to catch the next episode of black executive perspective podcast, wherever you get your podcast. And you can follow us on our socials of LinkedIn, YouTube, X, Facebook, and Instagram. At a black exec for our fabulous guest, Dr. Nsenga Burton for Lauren Aubree Henderson, who came with the magic and the love and the sharing today. I'm Tony tidbit. We learned about it today. We talked about it. I love you. And guess what? We're out

a black executive perspective.